View Full Version : Tivo Series3: Availability 9/17/2006 @ $799 MSRP?
ZeoTiVo
09-02-2006, 06:19 PM
Zeo,
Well, try sticking a 61" screen on your wall, with a 8' viewing distance, and see what she says about Dr. Phill recorded at the lowest quality level. That sort of quality is headache-inducing, at least for me.
and again the mass market is not exactly sticking 61" screens on the wall. please reference the part where I said it sounded absurd to the reader of this thread and me. I already know and see the difference but HD does not just sell itself becasue of better resolution to a LARGE market. So HD and Ble Ray and S3 will have a larger sticker price on them still.
eventually the better resolution will become standard becasue given all other factors the same then a better spec will win. Last I looked 61' screens had a few factors different from a 27 inch CRT ;)
lessd
09-02-2006, 06:47 PM
The quality improvement with HD-DVD over DVD is substantial if you have a >50" display with 1080p resolution. The larger the display, the more substantial the difference. In addition, the interactivity features supported by HD-DVD (and in future Blu-ray players) are light years ahead of what you get on DVD.
The prices and dimensions for large screen displays continue to fall. Within a few years, you'll be able to put hang a 60" 1080p display on your wall for about $1000. Of course HDTV looks much better on a large screen, but you've also got to consider that SD channels can look very bad when blown up on large screen. You aren't comparing good versus great; rather you're comparing bad to great, and between those two options, the consumer's choice is obvious.
Not so !! I have a 65" Optoma HDTV and when I first got it the cable co gave me HBO HD for two months. HBO-HD played a movie I also had in DVD. I recorded the HBO in HD on my Moto HD DVR and played back both at the same time, there was a difference when I switch TV inputs but not much of one. By setting up your DVD player for 16:9 you get 30% more resolution then a normal TV signal. The difference was too small for me to buy a HD DVD for now. Most people that saw the DVD thought is was HD.
bkdtv
09-02-2006, 09:09 PM
lessd,
Was your Optoma a 1080p television? If it wasn't, you weren't getting the full resolution. Moreover, the content on HBO-HD isn't really comparable to HD-DVD. HBO HD content is heavily vertically filtered to fit within 10-13Mbps, whereas the content on HD-DVD is not, and offers resolution more comparable to the film's master.
CCourtney
09-02-2006, 09:24 PM
Les,
What inputs were you feeding to your TV? What was the output signal from the Moto Box set to? Was the movie actually in HD, not all movies aired on HBO HD are in HD, and not all of those that are aired are decent quality HD. Star Wars III was an exception and was an awesome HD feed.
I call tell the difference between my DVD player, an UpConverting DVD player (fair amount better - but not HD quality), my HTPC UpConverting and feeding TV via DVI (even better than 'Good' Upconverting DVD players - still no HD), then Real HD - Totally Awesome.
If you can't tell a significant difference then you've got problems. Either you're feeding your TV with a bad feed (Moto box setup, Feeding TV w/ S-video or Composite video (i.e. using SD feeds), Movie that you watched and compared wasn't actually HD - always a possibility), your HDTV is f'd up, or you seriously need an eye exam.
CCourtney
TiVo Troll
09-02-2006, 10:46 PM
Les,
What inputs were you feeding to your TV? What was the output signal from the Moto Box set to? Was the movie actually in HD, not all movies aired on HBO HD are in HD, and not all of those that are aired are decent quality HD. Star Wars III was an exception and was an awesome HD feed.
I call tell the difference between my DVD player, an UpConverting DVD player (fair amount better - but not HD quality), my HTPC UpConverting and feeding TV via DVI (even better than 'Good' Upconverting DVD players - still no HD), then Real HD - Totally Awesome.
If you can't tell a significant difference then you've got problems. Either you're feeding your TV with a bad feed (Moto box setup, Feeding TV w/ S-video or Composite video (i.e. using SD feeds), Movie that you watched and compared wasn't actually HD - always a possibility), your HDTV is f'd up, or you seriously need an eye exam.
CCourtney
Ha! Tell the difference? I definitely can see the difference. But y'know what? It's still just marketing and sales! (Which rhymes with sails, so it's time to ship 'em out, no?)
Spend $10,000 (or less) on audio and it's hard to tell the difference between some musical performances and live performers. Spend that (or even $50,000) and there's no doubt whatsoever that what you're seeing is an amazingly crisp huge moving picture, but it will never be mistaken for live!
Holographic 3D TV and associated DVR's which could trick you into actually believing that their displays are "live" are probably less than 25 years away, plus perhaps five years more before they reach an equivalent price point to today's $2000 offerings.
It's all just hype! Nobody needs it, but a lot of us can be talked into wanting it.
Welshdog
09-03-2006, 12:56 AM
They only way to reliably demonstrate the difference between the various TV formats is to make a side by side comparison. This can almost never be arranged in any mass market store. Even under perfect conditions some people are still not going to see or appreciate the difference. Also consider the fact that obtaining the most perfect HD image is still a rather tricky pursuit and that one has to do a lot of research to succeed. If you build the perfect 1080p system you'll get breathtaking images. However, if you try to view SD on that system it's going to look bad - period. I think most of us can be happy with a 720p system because we will be living in a mixed resolution world for quite some time. A 720p display will look great with almost any HD feed and should still present an acceptable SD image as well. At one point I was staunchly insisting that my next TV would be a 1080p native display - now I am reconsidering. This article cleared up a few things for me:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/1080p_a_year_later.html
Of particular interest is the fact that Blu Ray and HD-DVD store the images at 1080p/24 which is a frame rate almost no display will support. This means that a messy conversion has to take place inside the player before you can get a watchable image on your monitor. I hate stuff like that.
I also agree that it is very likely the HD disc players will become ubiquitous not by overwhelming demand, but rather by SD-DVD players no longer being sold. It might take a while for that to happen too.
lessd
09-03-2006, 01:40 AM
Les,
What inputs were you feeding to your TV? What was the output signal from the Moto Box set to? Was the movie actually in HD, not all movies aired on HBO HD are in HD, and not all of those that are aired are decent quality HD. Star Wars III was an exception and was an awesome HD feed.
I call tell the difference between my DVD player, an UpConverting DVD player (fair amount better - but not HD quality), my HTPC UpConverting and feeding TV via DVI (even better than 'Good' Upconverting DVD players - still no HD), then Real HD - Totally Awesome.
If you can't tell a significant difference then you've got problems. Either you're feeding your TV with a bad feed (Moto box setup, Feeding TV w/ S-video or Composite video (i.e. using SD feeds), Movie that you watched and compared wasn't actually HD - always a possibility), your HDTV is f'd up, or you seriously need an eye exam.
CCourtney
My HD TV is two years old and has res. of only 720 X 1280 which I know is not as good as the new 1080i HD TVs now, but it looks dam good to me, Leno's show is specular at least compared to the output of TiVo DVD unit using the component cables. The DVD player is connected by component cables to a SD input on the TV. This TV has a state-of-the-art deinterlacing (their spelling not mine) so the DVD is setup for 480i at 16:9 as the TV manual said to do. The cable box is connected by a HDMI to DVI (on the TV) cable. The HBO movie was HD and looked better then the DVD but not knock your socks off better. The HD on this TV compared to a normal input is knock your socks off better. I am thrilled with the system as it is, but I know better is out there (1080p). I will have to see the difference someday at a showroom. I will not be replacing this TV for many years and see no need ti invest in a HD-DVD now.
mike3775
09-03-2006, 02:13 AM
I have a HD capable TV in my house, and guess what, I NEVER watch the HD channels at all. Why? Because I would have to pay shitcast even more money for stuff that I should already be getting as part of the monthly gouging they get from me every month. There is simply no reason for me to have to pay them an additional $11.95/month to get 35 channels in HD that I already get as part of my normal cable package. Until they quit trying to double bill me for channels, I won't care about HD and never will, and incidentally I didn't buy the TV, it was given to me as a birthday gift.
bkdtv
09-03-2006, 02:44 AM
mike,
I'm not sure if you are aware, but Comcast doesn't charge for the local HD channels. They are part of basic cable for ~$15/mo. However, you must have means to actually tune these channels. You could use the Series3 Tivo, or you could rent the HDTV set-top box from Comcast for $5/mo.
As far as cable channels...
Comcast is billed (double-billed, as you say) for those channels, so why shouldn't they pass that cost along to you? High-definition channels are relatively expensive to run --- which is why programming providers like ESPN charge Comcast extra for the high-def feed. That's not to say Comcast doesn't rake in a healthy profit on the digital tier. All the HD channels together cost Comcast a few bucks at most, but obviously they charge you a lot more than that. You have Comcast's cable monopoly to thank for that.
New market entrants like Verizon offer their channels at more appropriate price levels, imo. With Verizon FiOS, you get 180 digital channels, including ~20 HDTV channels, for $35/mo. Check out the typical Verizon FiOS TV lineup right here (http://www22.verizon.com/NROneRetail/NR/rdonlyres/ED53ECC4-12E2-460E-B40D-7E9D9A13BA56/0/VA_NorthernVirginia.pdf#search=%22FioS%20Northern%20Virginia %20lineup%22) (HDTV channels on second page).
megazone
09-03-2006, 03:34 AM
Of particular interest is the fact that Blu Ray and HD-DVD store the images at 1080p/24 which is a frame rate almost no display will support. This means that a messy conversion has to take place inside the player before you can get a watchable image on your monitor. I hate stuff like that.That's just one format the discs support. And it isn't new - many DVDs are 480p/24. 3:2 pulldown is a common trick and it doesn't really mean that much.
Blu-ray can also do 1080p/30 and 1080p/60, for example. 24fps is common because that's the framerate of film. So the best direct conversion of flim is 24fps.
There are some displays that can do multiples of 24fps - like some Pioneers can do 72Hz refresh, so each frame is just shown 3 times.
Bierboy
09-03-2006, 10:12 AM
....I'm not sure if you are aware, but Comcast doesn't charge for the local HD channels. They are part of basic cable for ~$15/mo. However, you must have means to actually tune these channels. You could use the Series3 Tivo...When I had the Sony DHG unit for a few months, this was the same situation (I have Mediacom). Which, in my case, was very helpful, since, to receive all my local HD channels OTA, I had to re-orient my outside antenna. With the Sony, I got all the local HDs in the clear. All but the CBS affil in my market come from one location. But the CBS tower, while only being about 8 miles away, has some very tall trees between it and my antenna making reception tricky (multipath) without fiddling with my rotor. If the S3 enables me to pull my local HDs through cable, I'll be a happy camper.
NickIN
09-03-2006, 10:30 AM
I have a HD capable TV in my house, and guess what, I NEVER watch the HD channels at all. Why? Because I would have to pay shitcast even more money for stuff that I should already be getting as part of the monthly gouging they get from me every month. There is simply no reason for me to have to pay them an additional $11.95/month to get 35 channels in HD that I already get as part of my normal cable package. Until they quit trying to double bill me for channels, I won't care about HD and never will, and incidentally I didn't buy the TV, it was given to me as a birthday gift.
I have Brighthouse in Indiana and they give the locals in HD for free. And I'm pretty sure that Brighthouse gives even less things away than Comcast. And if your TV is has a HD tuner you probably don't even need a cable box for it. Might want to check into that.
Steeler86
09-03-2006, 03:49 PM
Best Buy now has the Directv HDTV HR20 DVR posted on their website to be available 9/13 through 9/18. It's not TiVo.
seattlewendell
09-03-2006, 09:01 PM
The quality improvement with HD-DVD over DVD is substantial if you have a >50" display with 1080p resolution. The larger the display, the more substantial the difference. In addition, the interactivity features supported by HD-DVD (and in future Blu-ray players) are light years ahead of what you get on DVD.
The prices and dimensions for large screen displays continue to fall. Within a few years, you'll be able to put hang a 60" 1080p display on your wall for about $1000. Of course HDTV looks much better on a large screen, but you've also got to consider that SD channels can look very bad when blown up on large screen. You aren't comparing good versus great; rather you're comparing bad to great, and between those two options, the consumer's choice is obvious.
The average consumer does not care. When you can get 1080p over the air or from cable then they will care. Reason? They will have something tangible to comapre it to. They go into store san see TV's, HD-DVD and Bluerays players, and they go home to their 480p VCR and they are happy. Unless you plan on going door to door with your 50" and Blueray player (perhaps in a van ;) ), adaptaion of HD or Blueray is 5 to 7 years away.
Welshdog
09-03-2006, 09:05 PM
That's just one format the discs support. And it isn't new - many DVDs are 480p/24. 3:2 pulldown is a common trick and it doesn't really mean that much.
Blu-ray can also do 1080p/30 and 1080p/60, for example. 24fps is common because that's the framerate of film. So the best direct conversion of flim is 24fps.
There are some displays that can do multiples of 24fps - like some Pioneers can do 72Hz refresh, so each frame is just shown 3 times.
Yeah 3:2 is not new (did I say it was? sorry), I deal with it every day as an editor. I think what we can take from my post and your post is that this HD business is very messy. I think the chances of a regular consumer getting it wrong are greater than getting it right. So Blu-Ray can do 1080p/60 but most of the displays already in peoples homes don't have an HDMI port that will pass it (display makers only this year started building in the ability to handle 1080p/60). Assuming they even have an HDMi port. We have 1080p/24 as the most common format on a Blu Ray, but almost no displays can handle it. Even if your display can handle 24fps, it proabably won't look all that great due to flicker at that slow rate so it has to be multiplied up to 48 or 72. More processing. Eventually my head will explode dealing with all this.
Back to the topic sort of, I worry that people spending $800 on the S3 might return it when they get it home and it doesn't look all that great because their display isn't well matched to it's output. Maybe this is why Tivo has targeted high end/geek buyers: they stand a better chance of being willing and able to figure it all out and end up as a satisfied customer.
MickeS
09-03-2006, 09:15 PM
The quality improvement with HD-DVD over DVD is substantial if you have a >50" display with 1080p resolution. The larger the display, the more substantial the difference. In addition, the interactivity features supported by HD-DVD (and in future Blu-ray players) are light years ahead of what you get on DVD.
The prices and dimensions for large screen displays continue to fall. Within a few years, you'll be able to put hang a 60" 1080p display on your wall for about $1000. Of course HDTV looks much better on a large screen, but you've also got to consider that SD channels can look very bad when blown up on large screen. You aren't comparing good versus great; rather you're comparing bad to great, and between those two options, the consumer's choice is obvious.
I agree with most of what you write - but I never argued against it in the first place. :)
But I disagree with the last sentence - the consumer's choice is far from obvious.
jeffrypennock
09-03-2006, 09:18 PM
The only reason I anticipate returning my S3 is if my cable company stopped supporting CableCARD (and I don't think that will be a problem here in Houston for reasons I expounded on in another forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8350527#post8350527)). Short of that, I can't imagine me or anyone else sending a TiVo box back and returning to cable company SA 8300 HD DVR hell!! Surely people will figure out how to appropriately configure their display.
megazone
09-03-2006, 09:37 PM
Back to the topic sort of, I worry that people spending $800 on the S3 might return it when they get it home and it doesn't look all that great because their display isn't well matched to it's output. Maybe this is why Tivo has targeted high end/geek buyers: they stand a better chance of being willing and able to figure it all out and end up as a satisfied customer.Well, the S3 can output content natively - so whatever it came in as: 480i/480p/720p/1080i. Or you can set it to convert all output to 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i. And with HDMI, component, S-Video, and composite output, hopefully ONE of those combos will work well for any given display. :-)
If your TV (or receiver) has a good scaler, then Native is probably the best option. If you have a display that can only accept specific HD resolution input, then have the S3 scale it.
Vidfreaky
09-03-2006, 09:46 PM
It's definately a sexy unit, but seeing as how I don't have a HD monitor yet I think I'll hold off. lol
jeffrypennock
09-03-2006, 10:04 PM
Well, the S3 can output content natively - so whatever it came in as: 480i/480p/720p/1080i. Or you can set it to convert all output to 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i. And with HDMI, component, S-Video, and composite output, hopefully ONE of those combos will work well for any given display. :-)
You'd think so, right? Of course, maybe we're over-estimating people here. When I decided to switch to HD from SD, I decided to have TWC come out and 'install' HD cable in my living room rather than figuring out which ports were/weren't active on the back of the HD DVR box, then driving onto the mainland for Firewire or HDMI cable, DVI adapters, guessing at how long they needed to be, paying for them...yada yada yada. What a laugh that bright idea turned out to be. The guy showed up with rca component cables in hand. I said, "You're not going to use those for my HD install are you?" He said, "yeah, what else would I use?" I said, "HDMI, Firewire...something better than component." He said, "Why?" I said, "Because if you're not using a cable that transmits an HDCP signal, then you're not sending a purely digital uncompressed signal to my TV." It was clear from the look on his face that he had NO CLUE what I was talking about. I looked frustrated, I'm sure, and I told him to leave the box and go on his way. Of course the last laugh was on me for three reasons:
1) I had to do all the driving around and cord buying that I'd tried to dodge in the first place
2) After I get everything set up with an HDMI-DVI cable, rebundle the cords, etc., I've got this LOVELY 1080i picture; the only hang-up is it's got 2"x2" pixels and sound drop-outs on about half my HD channels because of how much TWC over-compresses the signal (which means that I probably wouldn't have lost all that much using those component cables after all...but I dare not complain about this because we all know how TWC thinks this problem should be solved: SDV).
3) That's DEFINITELY gonna be the guy who has to come out and activate my CableCARDs. Don't ya think?
DCIFRTHS
09-03-2006, 10:23 PM
... 3) That's DEFINITELY gonna be the guy who has to come out and activate my CableCARDs. Don't ya think?
Let's hope that it isn't the same guy...
Component cables offer a wonderful picture when the source signal is a quality signal.
kdmorse
09-03-2006, 10:47 PM
The guy showed up with rca component cables in hand.
I can beat that story the only way possible - RF Modulated Channel 3 over Coax.
That's what my Comcast installer *swore* was the *best* way too hook up the cable box to my HDTV. We even argued about it, and he swore that not only was Coax capable of carrying full HDTV, it was the best way, far superior to component cables.
After hooking it up, he tuned to NBC SD, then flipped to NBC HD, and claimed that because there was picture, that I was seeing HDTV. I was very unhappy, but grew tired of arguing with a brick wall.
The next day I got some component cables from their office for free, hooked em up, set the outputs on the box to 1080i (they were set to.... 480i, he didn't even get that right), and was *then* very happy. (Setting aside the fact that the TV is actually a piece for crap)
And guy's the reason I'm going to fight to my last breath for the ability to do a self install...
-Ken
cwoody222
09-03-2006, 10:55 PM
My cable installer swore I was seeing HD because (on a widescreen set) the picture was letterboxed. I agreed, he left, then I fixed the problem.
I went to Staples today with Fry's ad. The manager would not pricematch a drive because the ad said "DMA" while the drive said "ATA". I just left because I didn't know how to argue with ignorance.
jeffrypennock
09-03-2006, 11:02 PM
Wow, based on the last two posts, I fear for what CC activation process will be like. We've all heard millions of CC horror stories but a lot of those have to do with CC's going in to TVs and glitches regarding that which we would not expect to happen if the CCs are going into a wonderfully designed TiVo box. (a moment of prayer)
Let's hope our three experiences regarding HD installs aren't representative of what we can expect for CC installs (because I have a sinking feeling that I will be forced to have someone come out and install my CCs by TWC, even if I offer/beg to do it myself).
Welshdog
09-03-2006, 11:05 PM
It was clear from the look on his face that he had NO CLUE what I was talking about. I looked frustrated, I'm sure, and I told him to leave the box and go on his way.
That's what I'm talking about.
And the big macro blocks is why I'm not going to bother with digital cable. I've seen it and it is only occasionally good.
MickeS
09-04-2006, 01:03 AM
The "best" cable company story I have is when I had sound only in the left speaker on a few of the channels. Long story short, after several weeks and multiple visits, they found a setting at some main switch was set wrong. They flipped it, and it worked. Oops. I asked how many people would have been affected by this, and he said that probably all of them. And yet, I was, apparently, the only one who had reported it. Makes you wonder what people actually use the equipment they spend thousands of dollars on for...
NOT looking forward to dealing with the cable company regarding S3 and the CableCARDs... :/
jacksonian
09-04-2006, 03:40 PM
...The guy showed up with rca component cables in hand. I said, "You're not going to use those for my HD install are you?" He said, "yeah, what else would I use?" I said, "HDMI, Firewire...something better than component." He said, "Why?" I said, "Because if you're not using a cable that transmits an HDCP signal, then you're not sending a purely digital uncompressed signal to my TV." It was clear from the look on his face that he had NO CLUE what I was talking about....
I think you may want to read up a little more about HDMI vs. Component. HDMI was created purely for copy protection benefits of big studios, NOT to give you a better picture. The common myth is that HDMI is "all digital" so the picture will be better than component. However most folks who have compared the two directly (me with 3 plasmas, 2 projectors, 2 dvd players and a cable box) have seen that the image is better with component in most cases and in the other cases it was a draw.
I'd love to believe that HDMI was meant to provide me a better picture in return for some of the loss of my digital rights with media, but that's simply not the case. Your picture would have looked just as good or better with the component cables he brought. You should do a direct A/B comparison, having a friend switch the inputs for you. I did it blinded with me and several friends. We all either preferred the component (richer colors, smoother image) or couldn't tell the difference.
Just my opinion.
lessd
09-04-2006, 03:46 PM
The "best" cable company story I have is when I had sound only in the left speaker on a few of the channels. Long story short, after several weeks and multiple visits, they found a setting at some main switch was set wrong. They flipped it, and it worked. Oops. I asked how many people would have been affected by this, and he said that probably all of them. And yet, I was, apparently, the only one who had reported it. Makes you wonder what people actually use the equipment they spend thousands of dollars on for...
NOT looking forward to dealing with the cable company regarding S3 and the CableCARDs... :/
Had a similar problem with sound, Comcast did not believe me and sent a tech out to my home to replace my box. I had a friend who did not know that he had the problem as he had not watched the program yet. I shower the tech the recorded program with the sound problem, had him call my friend and my friend confirmed the problem. The tech called me the next day saying they found a head end problem and fixed it, all is OK now. I was the only person to report the problem out of thousands who had it but did not know it or take the time to call.
I'd consider spending the $800 if it got me a free year of service with it. :) But, if that price is true, I'll need to think about it quite a bit. I want, I need one, with the new HD tv, but - it's a little much for my wallet.
However, that's what credit cards are for.
Since I have a lifetime membership (man was that a good buy), I will happily addopt the S3 if I can transfer my lifetime membership. Otherwise, I will probably wait until the price comes down. My SA8300HD is no TiVo but it works and is free. (I am a Comcast employee so its free for me)
stevel
09-04-2006, 03:58 PM
I think you may want to read up a little more about HDMI vs. Component. HDMI was created purely for copy protection benefits of big studios, NOT to give you a better picture. The common myth is that HDMI is "all digital" so the picture will be better than component. However most folks who have compared the two directly (me with 3 plasmas, 2 projectors, 2 dvd players and a cable box) have seen that the image is better with component in most cases and in the other cases it was a draw.
I think you want to read up a little more on HDMI.
Yes, HDMI can provide copy protection, but it is a high-bandwidth digital video (and audio) signal connection, whereas component is analog video only. For sources that are digital in nature - DVDs and digital TV - and when using digital displays (most plasma, LCD and LCoS displays) - HDMI eliminates conversion to analog and then back to digital again.
Theoretically, HDMI should provide a better picture. What you and others have observed is that some components don't do HDMI right, and these might indeed show a better display with component. There are also compatibility issues, though these are rarer now than they were a year ago.
HDMI is also a single cable rather than three, which can be easier to run. And, of course, it supports copy protection, for good or for bad. (Component has the potential of not letting you see content in HD if the content provider wants to close "the analog hole".)
morac
09-04-2006, 04:03 PM
Had a similar problem with sound, Comcast did not believe me and sent a tech out to my home to replace my box. I had a friend who did not know that he had the problem as he had not watched the program yet. I shower the tech the recorded program with the sound problem, had him call my friend and my friend confirmed the problem. The tech called me the next day saying they found a head end problem and fixed it, all is OK now. I was the only person to report the problem out of thousands who had it but did not know it or take the time to call.
This happens to me rather regularly. Apparently I'm the only one who calls in problems. Unfortunately any time a tech comes out and sees my TiVo he immediately says "it's your TiVo". I then have to disconnect the TiVo to show him otherwise. He then usually blaims it on my TV.
I still have one outstanding issue with Comcast where they seem to be introducing "vertical interlacing" (like regular interlacing issues but vertically) on their digital channels.
$800's too rich for me :(
Oh well.
I don't understand this "it's not for the average consumer". However... cable DVRs that do HD ARE. So what's TiVo hoping to achieve here? A few sales on a niche product? It'll die on the vine that way...
I think they are doing what their customers asked... "Please come out with an HD Tivo!!"
$800 is very reasonable for what the box is delivering. I think prices will probably come down quickly and they may bundle it with service for less upfront cost. We shall see. I still have my hacked Series 1 and use the crap out of it. I bought it about 6 years ago for about 600 bucks. I think I got my money's worth out of it, especially since I have a lifetime subscription to go with it.
Since I have a lifetime membership (man was that a good buy), I will happily addopt the S3 if I can transfer my lifetime membership.
Not going to happen.
...and how long have they had to create such services?
HMO?
TiVoToGo? (the $ you have to pay for the ability to easily encode for PSP, iPod, etc)
TiVoCast downloads?
TiVo's had plenty of time and opportunity to create other revenue channels. They've failed every time.
You are incorrect. They have not failed every time. They have finally secured partnerships with major cable operators (MSOs) to bring the TiVo to the cable subscribers. Whether that takes the form of boxes and software or just software remains to be seen.
It is obvious you have had some problems with TiVo. I am sorry to hear that. But it sounds like it might be clouding your objectivity.
Not going to happen.
You say that, but they have already offered to transfer for a Series 2 upgrade. So unless you have a crystal ball, you are just making a WAG (wild-ass-guess). =)
Troy J B
09-04-2006, 04:20 PM
You say that, but they have already offered to transfer for a Series 2 upgrade. So unless you have a crystal ball, you are just making a WAG (wild-ass-guess). =)
imo, more of an educated guess. Based on TiVo's current product offerings and the placement of the Series3 in their line-up.
MickeS
09-04-2006, 04:25 PM
This happens to me rather regularly. Apparently I'm the only one who calls in problems. Unfortunately any time a tech comes out and sees my TiVo he immediately says "it's your TiVo". I then have to disconnect the TiVo to show him otherwise. He then usually blaims it on my TV.
That's exactly what happened to me when I had the problem I described above, but I didn't have a TiVo at the time, only a VCR. They blamed first the VCR, when I removed that the A/V receiver, when I switched that with another one they blamed the SPEAKERS... finally I just used headphones connected to the second receiver so they could hear it... I think it took 2 or 3 service calls to get them to even acknowledge that the problem was on their end and not mine.
I can only imagine what the response will be if a CableCARD causes problems in a TiVo. "Sorry, it's your TiVo, we can't help you."
You say that, but they have already offered to transfer for a Series 2 upgrade. So unless you have a crystal ball, you are just making a WAG (wild-ass-guess). =)
I'm sure many people in this forum are willing to bet $$$ that it will not happen, unless you have a grandfathered Series1. The Series1->Series2 offer was actually NOT a good one because you would have paid less by selling the Series1 and then buying the Series2 with new lifetime service.
Wow, that is cool. My wife would not allow such a subwoofer. She is a total Tivo addict, and last night when I told her how much the S3 was going to cost I didn't get a complaint. Of course I haven't really lined up all the costs for her yet:
$3000 for flat panel LCD dispaly
$850 for Denon DVD player
$800 for S3 + monthly (we are on lifetime right now)
$300 for HDMI cable to get from the equipment rack to the display.
$250 for HDMI switcher
Anyone want to add something else?
Buy your HDMI cables on ebay. Probably 20-50 bucks (for the length I am assuming you need) =)
Not going to happen.
Depends on whether or not he got his lifetime before the grandfather date (somewhere around January 2000). He mentioned he's got a 6 year old Series 1 with lifetime, which would put it close to the grandfather date. I've got a series 1 from late '99 that has lifetime service and I'm planning on grandfathering it to a S3 when they become available.
Depends on whether or not he got his lifetime before the grandfather date (somewhere around January 2000).
No, it doesn't. He was talking about a new "transfer lifetime offer". Not going to happen.
Tivo will honor the existing ways to put lifetime on a Series 3:
- By transfer from an eligible Series 1
- By using a Tivo Lifetime Service Gift card (no longer available at retail or from Tivo)
But Tivo will not offer a new way to put lifetime on a Series 3, including any other type of service transfer.
Period.
jacksonian
09-04-2006, 04:51 PM
I think you want to read up a little more on HDMI.
Yes, HDMI can provide copy protection, but it is a high-bandwidth digital video (and audio) signal connection, whereas component is analog video only. For sources that are digital in nature - DVDs and digital TV - and when using digital displays (most plasma, LCD and LCoS displays) - HDMI eliminates conversion to analog and then back to digital again.
Theoretically, HDMI should provide a better picture. What you and others have observed is that some components don't do HDMI right, and these might indeed show a better display with component. There are also compatibility issues, though these are rarer now than they were a year ago.
HDMI is also a single cable rather than three, which can be easier to run. And, of course, it supports copy protection, for good or for bad. (Component has the potential of not letting you see content in HD if the content provider wants to close "the analog hole".)
You said it yourself, THEORETICALLY it should provide a better picture. But in most cases so far, it hasn't. I've followed HDMI since its inception and tried blinded A/B tests with all of my equipment including sending several displays and players back.
Everything you said proves my point. Thank you. HDMI is and has always been a way to control piracy. It wasn't a gift from the industry to give us a better picture.
Bierboy
09-04-2006, 04:53 PM
...I still have my hacked Series 1 and use the crap out of it. I bought it about 6 years ago for about 600 bucks. I think I got my money's worth out of it, especially since I have a lifetime subscription to go with it.Looks to me that he's got a lifetime with his S1.
Since I have a lifetime membership (man was that a good buy), I will happily addopt the S3 if I can transfer my lifetime membership. Otherwise, I will probably wait until the price comes down. My SA8300HD is no TiVo but it works and is free. (I am a Comcast employee so its free for me)And I don't see where he's talking about any kind of new "transfer lifetime offer."
cwoody222
09-04-2006, 04:55 PM
You are incorrect. They have not failed every time. They have finally secured partnerships with major cable operators (MSOs) to bring the TiVo to the cable subscribers. Whether that takes the form of boxes and software or just software remains to be seen.
It is obvious you have had some problems with TiVo. I am sorry to hear that. But it sounds like it might be clouding your objectivity.
Yes, their cable system deals are great deals for them.
I meant more in terms of failure of selling advertising on the box (they've had various attempts at this... TiVoLution Magazine, Product Watch, selling the TiVo icons in ads, etc). None have really 'taken off'. HMO was another example.
For me $799 is too much. For others, perhaps not. But what I want to know is why does it have to be $799. Why did they go with such a large hard drive out of the gate. Why not go back to their original business model of varying hour units. Sell a 14 hour unit for $399 that uses a small hard drive and a 60 hour unit for $799 that houses a larger drive. Better yet, they could only sell the smaller unit for $399 and offer huge TiVo branded hard drives, guaranteed to work, for $400. (Like the Xbox360 models - Core/Premium) This way they could compete with CableCo's that can subsidize their boxes, but at the same time appeal to those who want the extra recording time.
My wife and I were really psyched to hear that a non Sat HD Tivo was on its way, but it looks like we'll be putting up with the Adelphia DVR for another season.
I hear you. I am guessing it is because the hard drives are not really the limiting price factor they used to be. The price difference (especially for an OEM) is negligable. I doubt they would really be able to sell for much different unless they offered models in the 700, 800, 900 dollar range. This would effectivly mean that they would make MORE money on the higher dollar ones since the price difference between each drive is so small.
But Tivo will not offer a new way to put lifetime on a Series 3, including any other type of service transfer.
Period.
You know, it absolutely amazes me how many people here seem to know official TiVo policy for a product that they haven't even released yet. Never say Never. Period.
You know, it absolutely amazes me how many people here seem to know official TiVo policy for a product that they haven't even released yet. Never say Never. Period.
TiVo has officially discontinued new lifetime service for all practical purposes. That's as official as it will get.
They did look the other way because it was the only way to get a larger drive or some added features.
now with the S3 you can add an eSATA external drive and also some of the features are there now in some form on the TiVo. I think they will have made it much harder to do anthing inside the TiVo - if for no other reason then they have a smoother update path since all boxes will be the same.
I think HD does change everything though, content providers are not so worried about SD but HD they want locked up.
My Series 1 is hacked to the gills and I have no trouble getting updates. You don't have to be exactly the same to be able to get updates. The system is built on Linux so it has a very flexible environment. Not like it would crash if it saw 1MB of extra space.
I cannot speak for the series 3 but I am 'guessing' that it will be based on the same technology since it is a proven system.
You know, it absolutely amazes me how many people here seem to know official TiVo policy for a product that they haven't even released yet. Never say Never. Period.
Yeah, I guess all the Tivo employees that posted official policy here concerning lifetime service when they stopped offering it for purchase on all products other than the Humax DVD box could have been wrong. :D
I don't explicitly remember "We will not offer customers the chance to transfer existing lifetime service from units that otherwise wouldn't eligible", but I took "Lifetime is not profitable" and "Lifetime gift subscriptions will no longer be sold" as a pretty big hint that "Never" was pretty safe.
So maybe "Never" was a bit harsh.
How about - if they don't, you buy me a Series 3? And if they do, I'll buy you one?
Yes, but only if your lifetime was purchased prior to Jan xx of 2000 (someone can confirm this date).
Hmm if that is the case, my lifetime should be transferable.
stevel
09-04-2006, 05:47 PM
You said it yourself, THEORETICALLY it should provide a better picture. But in most cases so far, it hasn't. I've followed HDMI since its inception and tried blinded A/B tests with all of my equipment including sending several displays and players back.
In most cases, it does, based on my own observations and what I read of reviews in trusted magazines.
TiVo has officially discontinued new lifetime service for all practical purposes. That's as official as it will get.
But they still allow the onetime grandfathering of lifetime on S1's purchased prior to January, 2000. And who here can say with authority that they won't allow some sort of upgrade of other existing lifetime services in some way or other? Granted it's not likely, but whose to say they won't do something like "be one of the first 100 to buy an S3 and transfer your existing lifetime to it for free" or some other type or promotion? The point I'm trying to make is that lots of people here can make all sorts of claims, predictions, etc. but until we hear the official word from TiVo, Inc. themselves then it's all just a lot of useless speculation.
greg_burns
09-04-2006, 06:18 PM
Buy your HDMI cables on ebay. Probably 20-50 bucks (for the length I am assuming you need) =)
How do those prices (with the lengths you are assuming) compare to MonoPrice's?
http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&style=
They seem to have great prices w/o the hassel of ebay. I bought my last DVI->HDMI Monster cable on ebay and "thought" I got a good deal (compared to BestBuy I suppose I did :rolleyes: ). Now I'm looking again (HDMI->HDMI) in prep for the S3. <sigh>
greg_burns
09-04-2006, 06:19 PM
but until we hear the official word from TiVo, Inc. themselves then it's all just a lot of useless speculation.
Useless? How about insightful?
Yes, you are correct I DON"T KNOW. and neither does Adam which was my original point. He said no way way Comcast would do this and no way Comcast would do that blah, blah blah. I said hold on. You don't work for Comcast and you don't have a crystal ball. You don't know what the company is going to do. He responded with some nonsensical answer about existing customers no being able top get large boxes etc. etc. Comcast has about 10 million customers. I posted the link to show that Comcast jut bought enough boxes to give 10% of their customers DVR's with large HD's. That percentage goes up if you factor in that not all their customers have DVR's. My point in posting the link is that we don't know what Comcast is going to do. 1.5 million new boxes seems just about right if they were planning a rollout of better boxes. I am posting information so people can draw their own conclusions. I just have a problem people make absolute statements. No way XYZ. No way? How do you know?
Also about the SA and Moto boxes. About 1 year ago during their earnings call Comcast said that they use boxes from various sources so that their supply chain is no tied to one company. Also to keep getting the best prices on their boxes they feel it's best to have competition rather than give all their business to one company. Whether or not this make sense doesn't matter. The point is that this is their philosophy. Since they are now in bed with Tivo don't you think they have Tivo working on software for both boxes? Just a thought.
Amen Brother.
I agree with you on so many points (and I am a Comcast employee). Nobody has a crystal ball, and even if a company states "We are doing 'x' next year!" This does not necessarilly mean x will happen next year, ever or if they will not do y or z and when. =)
Only time will tell for sure. =)
They may port to Scientific Atlanta boxes too if the cable MSOs want it, but right now they haven't asked for that.
While I could certainly be wrong, I suspect SA's answer to that would "over our dead bodies". Their new owners (Cisco) have specifically expressed the desire to invade the STB arena full force, by developing their own integrated platform which will do everything Tivo does, and much more.
Whether they ever get there, meh - dunno. Nothing I've seen from them so far in the STB arena impresses me, but they could be a real player a few years down the road. I would consider it a fairly safe bet that, given their current goals, they're not going to let Tivo software on their boxes.
But then again, I've been known to loose safe bets all the time.. Only time will tell...
-Ken
Oh please don't let Cisco develop software. =( We have bought some HUGE pieces of software from them and they are pure crap. Stick to routers.
classicX
09-04-2006, 06:38 PM
Let me get this right. You believe that there are tens of thousands of people out there that have no Tivo today, have never had a Tivo, and are waiting for the S3 before buying their first Tivo DVR? These are the same people that aren't buying the DT today even though it is almost free?
That's me, so yes.
Except I had a DirecTivo a few years back. I won't be buying a new Tivo until the S3. So there! nananananana! :)
Why do people keep stating the obvious?
They're not going to sell a lot of Series3 boxes at $800. EVERYONE knows that, TiVo included. But they will sell SOME to early adopters, aka gadget freaks and suckers - like myself.
Then the price will come down a notch, and they'll sell more.
Then the price will come down another notch, and they'll sell even more.
That's how it is with pretty much ever new device that comes out. There is more than just manufacturing costs at play too - there is R&D investment. They'll make a higher return per box at first, then drop that over time. And as manufacturing ramps up, costs come down.
If people think it is too expensive - just don't buy it. Wait. It will cost less in the future.
I think a lot of people are just angry they cannot afford to be early adopters. Especially those that have been waiting for a long time. The item is finally within grasp and yet is still just outside thier reach.
If I was not trying to buy a house at the moment, I would probably be getting it on day one too. As it stands, I don't think I will get one unless I can transfer my lifetime subscription.
The problem is that the 'connection to the host' has to be sata. There are plenty of raid controllers that use sata drives, but the host connection is usually pci or ethernet. I did some preliminary hunting and couldn't find a raid controller that connects to the host via sata. Might be a good opportunity for a company.
There are SATA external RAID enclosures. Some more expensive and with more features than others. If you don't need the parity drive for fault tolerance (and really... I don't HAVE to make sure my episode of Law and Order is not lost) you can get a pretty reasonable one.
Thecus Brings SATA to External Storage (http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/04/17/thecus_brings_sata_to_external_storage/)
SCSIRAID
09-04-2006, 07:19 PM
You know, it absolutely amazes me how many people here seem to know official TiVo policy for a product that they haven't even released yet. Never say Never. Period.
This brings a question to mind.... Somewhat off topic... but....
What happens if a Tivo S2 with lifetime fails? Do I have the ability to transfer the lifetime service to another S2?
Gregor
09-04-2006, 07:23 PM
This brings a question to mind.... Somewhat off topic... but....
What happens if a Tivo S2 with lifetime fails? Do I have the ability to transfer the lifetime service to another S2?
If Tivo repairs it, they will transfer the service to another unit.
I went to Staples today with Fry's ad. The manager would not pricematch a drive because the ad said "DMA" while the drive said "ATA". I just left because I didn't know how to argue with ignorance.
Yeah you cannot argue with that. =)
How do you teach someone some computer history and terminology just so you can save a few bucks?
mtchamp
09-04-2006, 07:26 PM
They might bundle a movie download service with the TiVo service with purchase of a Series3 and make the monthly fee easier to justify. I can get the MSD already, but I'm not going to jump in and buy at $799 because I don't have HDTV yet and expect the price to drop and the deals to get interesting. Comcast could lease a Series3?
imo, more of an educated guess. Based on TiVo's current product offerings and the placement of the Series3 in their line-up.
Fair enough =)
Depends on whether or not he got his lifetime before the grandfather date (somewhere around January 2000). He mentioned he's got a 6 year old Series 1 with lifetime, which would put it close to the grandfather date. I've got a series 1 from late '99 that has lifetime service and I'm planning on grandfathering it to a S3 when they become available.
Turns out I bought about 8 months to late =(
Wouldn't you know it.
I love TiVo but I will certainly wait now. Hopefully the TiVo that Comcast offers will be tollerable until I can justify the cost of a S3 and the 6.95 monthly subscription.
TiVo has officially discontinued new lifetime service for all practical purposes. That's as official as it will get.
I don't care if the President, CEO, CFO, and every employee of the company has said that it will never, ever, in a million years allow any new transfer of a lifetime subscription... ever ever again!!!
Just because they said it today, does not mean they will not change thier mind.
All it takes is bad sales or other circumstances for them to try a new way to get people to use hardware or thier services - and wham! All of the sudden, they are doing what they said they would never ever do. =)
It happens ALL the time in business and marketing. Especially when they want to sell new units.
"We will never do this so buy them now anyway". Then the initials have sold and they are trailing off... "OK we changed our minds now... we will allow it for a limited time".
Hell George Lucas is the master at this tactic. =)
How do those prices (with the lengths you are assuming) compare to MonoPrice's?
http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&style=
They seem to have great prices w/o the hassel of ebay. I bought my last DVI->HDMI Monster cable on ebay and "thought" I got a good deal (compared to BestBuy I suppose I did :rolleyes: ). Now I'm looking again (HDMI->HDMI) in prep for the S3. <sigh>
Well do some searches and see for yourself. If the price is negligable, I go with a company I think I can trust. If the prices are worth the minor risk, I go with the cheaper price. There is no magic to HDMI cables. They should not cost hundreds of dollars.
m_jonis
09-04-2006, 07:43 PM
Legally, they have to broadcast the HD Locals in the clear. They aren't being nice or anything, they just have to do it.
I'm not sure about that. Here's what a rep on the AVS forums (the South Carolina HDTV group) said:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=99727&page=228&pp=30
"OK - here's the thing on QAM tuners and cable.
If you have a QAM tuner in your HDTV and you subscribe to the BST (Broadcast Service Tier) from a cable provider and that cable provider has the HD Broadcast signals in the clear, then technically the smart consumer should be able to scan and find the HD Broadcast signal.
Here are the points to remember about TWCSC:
1. There is no government rule or regulation that we put the HD Broadcast signals in the clear. We could scramble them and associate them to the HD converter or HD DVR via a service code. Not a rate code, but a service code.
2. If you are viewing HD Broadcast signals via this manner on TWCSC, please realize we are not supporting the HD Broadcast viewing. You are paying for 2-13 analog and that is what we are supporting. There is no promise you will get all HD Broadcast signals and there is no promise that if you get them that way today, you will always receive them via this method.
3. TWC engineering can (and does) move the QAMs for technical benefits within the headend. They don't tell me, we don't notify consumers. So if you are depending on viewing in this manner and tune into the season finale of 24 or some such and the signal has been moved from the QAM... then that's the risk you are taking by depending on your HD Broadcast channels in this manner.
4. TWC may in the future scramble the HD Broadcast signals - I'm not saying we will, I'm just saying right now - today - this second, its easier from a technical standpoint to have these channels in the clear but there could conceivably be some reason to change this procedure.
Now - I'm not saying that this is going to change any time soon or ever for that matter. I'm just stating the current situation.
I also do not plan to get into any sort of theoretical debate about what may or may not ever happen."
ah30k
09-04-2006, 07:51 PM
You say that, but they have already offered to transfer for a Series 2 upgrade. So unless you have a crystal ball, you are just making a WAG (wild-ass-guess). =)
Those days are long gone man, forget about it. Ain't gonna happen, especially since they have discontinued the lifetime service option as a loss. Why in the world would they allow someone to re-up lifetime. This POV is way more than a WAG.
But they still allow the onetime grandfathering of lifetime on S1's purchased prior to January, 2000.
Pretty much only because before then "lifetime" wasn't clearly stated to mean "lifetime of the box" and many assumed it meant for the lifetime of the subscriber.
And who here can say with authority that they won't allow some sort of upgrade of other existing lifetime services in some way or other?
TivoPony.
Granted it's not likely, but whose to say they won't do something like "be one of the first 100 to buy an S3 and transfer your existing lifetime to it for free" or some other type or promotion?
I don't doubt that there will be another promotion where you could win a Series 3 with lifetime, but why would they want to do something like you suggest?
The point I'm trying to make is that lots of people here can make all sorts of claims, predictions, etc. but until we hear the official word from TiVo, Inc. themselves then it's all just a lot of useless speculation.
Or pointless hope from people that think Tivo will let a large number of people transfer lifetime subscriptions to new boxes when they haven't allowed that for over 6 years.
Gregor
09-04-2006, 08:48 PM
Tivo offered to let S1 folks transfer lifetime to new S2 boxes for a short period of time when the S2 launched.
I really doubt they will do this again.
1. There is no government rule or regulation that we put the HD Broadcast signals in the clear. We could scramble them and associate them to the HD converter or HD DVR via a service code. Not a rate code, but a service code.
The rep is mistaken. Even if the FCC doesn't specifically require that HD broadcast that originate OTA be carried in the clear (and I think they do), the local franchise authority (e.g. your city) can require it.
paranoid
09-04-2006, 08:56 PM
Interestingly enough there is some Apple announcement scheduled for the same day - September 12th. Lots of the usual internet rumor/hype about some kind of video product perhaps to tie in with iTunes.
Hey, that's only a week away! time flies..
drew2k
09-04-2006, 08:57 PM
The rep is mistaken. Even if the FCC doesn't specifically require that HD broadcast that originate OTA be carried in the clear (and I think they do), the local franchise authority (e.g. your city) can require it.I thought the ruling was that the MSO must only supply a "digital" in-the-clear version of the local network channel? Would that mean they DON'T have to supply an HD channel in the clear?
I ask because I was going to try the S3 without a cable card at first, as I get MANY HD QAM channels right now in the clear on my LG HD TV. If Cablevision can take those HD QAM channels away whenever they want, I'd have to upgrade my Cable package and get the cable cards ... :(
m_jonis
09-04-2006, 09:55 PM
The rep is mistaken. Even if the FCC doesn't specifically require that HD broadcast that originate OTA be carried in the clear (and I think they do), the local franchise authority (e.g. your city) can require it.
In regards to the first part, I'm pretty sure the FCC ruling/law/whatever only says they have to carry the DIGITAL channel in the clear. Not the HD one (unless the HD one is the only digital, but most places broadcast both).
In regards to the second part, there's a big difference between requiring someone to do something and having the ability to make them do something. Just because your local city has the ability to pass a law that says you have to dress up your dog in doll clothes doesn't mean that they actually require it.
Yes, digital. Not necessarily HD. But for OTA big four stations, those are usually one and the same.
JPinAZ
09-05-2006, 12:14 AM
How do those prices (with the lengths you are assuming) compare to MonoPrice's?
http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&style=
They seem to have great prices w/o the hassel of ebay. I bought my last DVI->HDMI Monster cable on ebay and "thought" I got a good deal (compared to BestBuy I suppose I did :rolleyes: ). Now I'm looking again (HDMI->HDMI) in prep for the S3. <sigh>
Buy them from Monoprice off of Ebay. If you're buying more than a couple cables you can save a few dollars on shipping.
Budget_HT
09-05-2006, 12:54 AM
In regards to the first part, I'm pretty sure the FCC ruling/law/whatever only says they have to carry the DIGITAL channel in the clear. Not the HD one (unless the HD one is the only digital, but most places broadcast both). ...
How do you know that "most places broadcast both?"
Where I live NO station broadcasts both. Those that have HD and SD channels carry different programming (e.g., not the mainstream, "same as analog" programming) on their SD digital subchannels.
Is the rest of the country different from the Seattle/Portland areas?
aaronwt
09-05-2006, 01:31 AM
No. We only have the HD broadcast here. The SD version isn't broadcast Any sub channels show weather, radar, or some other programming.
tunnelengineer
09-05-2006, 08:32 AM
Pretty much only because before then "lifetime" wasn't clearly stated to mean "lifetime of the box" and many assumed it meant for the lifetime of the subscriber.
TivoPony.
I don't doubt that there will be another promotion where you could win a Series 3 with lifetime, but why would they want to do something like you suggest?
Or pointless hope from people that think Tivo will let a large number of people transfer lifetime subscriptions to new boxes when they haven't allowed that for over 6 years.
Wow, once again everything you say is speculation. You have absolutely no idea what Tivo will do when the S3 launches. There may be a short term transfer option for those that want ot throw down cash on day one. You just never know. And if you do know by some chance, please tell me who will win the super bowl this year so I can put a lot of money down in Vegas.
Sure, the odds are against transferring the lifetime sub, but there is always a chance. Personally I will hope for that small chance, no matter how miniscule.
Also, elimintaing the lifetime sub option was the dumbest thing Tivo ever did. They will lose many more tivo users because of this (thus losing a ton of money) than they would have lost in money off the lifetime subs.
TexasAg
09-05-2006, 08:40 AM
Sure, the odds are against transferring the lifetime sub, but there is always a chance. Personally I will hope for that small chance, no matter how miniscule.
Hey, feel free to put your hopes in what you admit is a miniscule chance of something happening. Most folks here realize that Tivo probably won't do this and have accepted it. Some of us aren't happy about it, but given the choice between no Tivo and no lifetime, I'll pick no lifetime.
Also, elimintaing the lifetime sub option was the dumbest thing Tivo ever did. They will lose many more tivo users because of this (thus losing a ton of money) than they would have lost in money off the lifetime subs.
Talk about speculation (you know, the thing you were just criticizing others for) :rolleyes:
danieljanderson
09-05-2006, 08:40 AM
Also, elimintaing the lifetime sub option was the dumbest thing Tivo ever did. They will lose many more tivo users because of this (thus losing a ton of money) than they would have lost in money off the lifetime subs.
Isn't this speculation?
I'm just asking......... :rolleyes:
edit/
(10 seconds late)
lessd
09-05-2006, 08:56 AM
[QUOTE=Also, elimintaing the lifetime sub option was the dumbest thing Tivo ever did. They will lose many more tivo users because of this (thus losing a ton of money) than they would have lost in money off the lifetime subs.[/QUOTE]
If you agree TiVo lost money of of lifetime then how dumb could they be stopping lifetime.....you can't run a CO if your not making money so something had to change. TiVo is going to try this new plan out, if nothing they try will work to make money for them I guess when they run out of money they will go out of business. Under your assumption instead of dropping lifetime they should have drop the price back to $150..boy would they have gotten a lot more sales to have lost more money on. If anybody has another plan that would make TiVo more money and keep all customers happy let TiVo (or us) know.
PS I loved TiVos lifetime service and I want the cable co the give me the option of lifetime cable service, and how about my cell phone CO giving me lifetime on my current plan, I might even increase the minutes.
Bierboy
09-05-2006, 09:07 AM
No. We only have the HD broadcast here. The SD version isn't broadcast Any sub channels show weather, radar, or some other programming.
Yep....same in our market (95 DMA).
tunnelengineer
09-05-2006, 09:18 AM
Hey, feel free to put your hopes in what you admit is a miniscule chance of something happening. Most folks here realize that Tivo probably won't do this and have accepted it. Some of us aren't happy about it, but given the choice between no Tivo and no lifetime, I'll pick no lifetime.
Talk about speculation (you know, the thing you were just criticizing others for) :rolleyes:
Yes, I wholeheartedly admit this is speculation. The lifetime option is the reason I bought 3 tivos to date and paid upfront for lifetime on all of them. Now series 3 comes out and I am not sure I will get it strictly due to the lack of a lifetime sub option. I really don't see how Tivo loses money on a lifetime sub either. My phone call once a day doesn't cost much to them..........
It's more like they make more money on the monthly subs and screw the consumer more. They both take the same resources for tivo, I think the consumer that pays up front for a lifetime fee should be rewarded by getting a cheaper service over the long run.
The way I see it is the lifetime sub option was a big advantage that tivo had over the cable company boxes. As the cable boxes become better, the reason to stay with Tivo gradually slips away.
Even if the lifetime was expensive (read $399), at least make it an option for those that hate the monthly bills.
Personally I will just go for the reduced monthly rate due to my existing boxes, but I hate when options are taken away from consumers.
ah30k
09-05-2006, 09:34 AM
I really don't see how Tivo loses money on a lifetime sub either. My phone call once a day doesn't cost much to them..........TiVo's operating cost per subscriber includes more that just your phone call costs. One example is the Tribune license to provide copyrighted guide data to your box. I'm not sure of the exact cost, but I speculate that it is on the order of a dollar or two.
The second item is the very business model that TiVo uses. They collect service fees to pay their operating expenses and offset hardware subsidies. They plan out how much they need in service fees to make a profitable operation and eventually deliver on the return to investors. By their analysis, the lifetime was not providing enough operating profit for them to continue operations. Offering it for a higher price was not, in their best marketing judgement, a good move. You could argue that it would be good for you, but they evaluated it and decided it was not good for TiVo.
tunnelengineer
09-05-2006, 09:47 AM
good answer.
I am really worried about some of the decisions being made by tivo though. How long can they expect to charge a premium price for a service that many of the cable companies are offering themselves (and improving every month)?
It seems Tivo isn't considering the consumer very much in their decisions anymore, just their bottom line. It's not a good business model. It will be tough to stay in business with no customers...
How long can they expect to charge a premium price for a service that many of the cable companies are offering themselves (and improving every month)?
I certianly don't consider Comcast as "improving every month". Granted I don't have one of their DVR's since I already have a TiVo, but on the TV where I do have an STB I haven't seen any changes in that UI in probably a year. The TiVo interface is significantly better than the one Comcast provides.
It seems Tivo isn't considering the consumer very much in their decisions anymore, just their bottom line. It's not a good business model. It will be tough to stay in business with no customers...
It's also tough for them to stay in business with no revenue stream. As others have pointed out the cost of supporting TiVo users isn't $0. Between infrastructure, licensing, and other costs they need a steady revenue stream. Because of that lifetime service doesn't make sense financially.
I also think that they are considering their potential customers in the design of the S3. One feature that I think makes a lot of sense and will be used by a fair amount of users is the ability to receive OTA broadcasts. Where I am there are differences between what some stations are broadcasting OTA and what Comcast is providing. Comcast is just providing each network in SD & HD, but if I tune in OTA then I sometimes see subchannels that I've never seen on Comcast. I may very well set up my S3 with one cable and one OTA tuner specifically so that I can get those subchannels that Comcast doesn't offer.
cwoody222
09-05-2006, 10:12 AM
In my market, only the FOX affiliate broadcasts their SD station along with the HD one digitally. Presumably they do it because they don't upconvert their HD feed so non-HD stuff looks like total crap so they give us the SD feed so we can 'stretch' it.
Ironically, it's the only local that our local cable company (TWC, previously Adelphia) does not carry in HD (it's a Sinclair station who is trying to get cable co's to pay them for HD feeds) at all so it's not required to be unencrypted QAM either, obviously.
dbtom
09-05-2006, 10:33 AM
It is akin to scrambling the networks on analog cable, simple isn't going to happen because the FCC won't allow for it.
Analog cable had been scrambled in some areas of NYC for a long time. You don't get anything without a box.
I posted a bunch in another thread. TerryFoster was able to find an FCC link that basically said that the cable companies don't need to send QAM clear but they do need to offer a broadcast basic package. I get random channels QAM clear where I am and certainly not all broadcast locals.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4308637&highlight=dbtom#post4308637
Bottom Line
Until someone shows me proof otherwise, I believe there is NO legal obligations for cable companies to send digital locals QAM clear. They must offer broadcast basic service, but this could still require a box. So I would strongly advise not making any purchasing decisions based on the assumption that cable companies will be transmitting clear QAM.
HDTiVo
09-05-2006, 10:54 AM
If you agree TiVo lost money of of lifetime then how dumb could they be stopping lifetime.....you can't run a CO if your not making money so something had to change. TiVo is going to try this new plan out, if nothing they try will work to make money for them I guess when they run out of money they will go out of business. Under your assumption instead of dropping lifetime they should have drop the price back to $150..boy would they have gotten a lot more sales to have lost more money on. If anybody has another plan that would make TiVo more money and keep all customers happy let TiVo (or us) know.
PS I loved TiVos lifetime service and I want the cable co the give me the option of lifetime cable service, and how about my cell phone CO giving me lifetime on my current plan, I might even increase the minutes.
Precisely the kind of thinking that has lost over $650M and achieved less than 15% of the potential for SA Subs.
And I know TiVo did not lose money on lifetime.
Tunnel: Don't let people that don't know much about the subject change your mind.
HDTiVo
09-05-2006, 11:01 AM
One thing TiVo could do if it wanted to goose early sales is to not give the rebate on a Lifetime transfer (I assume on Grandfather that is the case anyway).
Very unlikely to happen and would represent a major reversal in policy - not that there's anything wrong with that ;) .
ah30k
09-05-2006, 11:02 AM
And I know TiVo did not lose money on lifetime.How do you know this? I am open minded enough to consider all evidence. Please help me get my thinking straight! I hate to go around spreading falsehoods that they lost money on it.
terryfoster
09-05-2006, 11:09 AM
And I know TiVo did not lose money on lifetime.How do you know this? I am open minded enough to consider all evidence. Please help me get my thinking straight! I hate to go around spreading falsehoods that they lost money on it.
Yes, please share how my $100 lifetime service purchased in 1999 wasn't a losing proposition for TiVo.
TriBruin
09-05-2006, 11:10 AM
Precisely the kind of thinking that has lost over $650M and achieved less than 15% of the potential for SA Subs.
And I know TiVo did not lose money on lifetime.
I am curious how you have some special insight that the rest of us don't? Tivo has flat out said that Lifetime was a money loser for Tivo. They amoritized the cost of lifetime over 4(?) years. With many units running longer than that, they are recognizing ZERO revenue, but absorbing the cost to continue to support these units.
Please show the math.
ZeoTiVo
09-05-2006, 11:11 AM
One thing TiVo could do if it wanted to goose early sales is to not give the rebate on a Lifetime transfer (I assume on Grandfather that is the case anyway).
Very unlikely to happen and would represent a major reversal in policy - not that there's anything wrong with that ;) . it would give them heartburn and not directly up the total subscription numbers but - it would drop off some older legacy hardware or else some would go monthly. That is a benefit they can factor in.
I have a 240 lifetimed and do not plan to buy an S3 right away but if that offer was put out there I would spend more than a little time mulling it over. If I had a series 1 lifetimed I would not hesitate at the chance to update it.
PS - you need numbers and sec filings to be able to state that Lifetime did not cost TiVo money overall. perhaps a complete look at the data would show a net gain. It should be borne in mind that The lower Lifetime cost on series 1 came with a higher hardware cost to start with.
maybe the correct phrasing would be - Low hardware costs along with 299$ lifetime cost TiVo money over the useful life
cwoody222
09-05-2006, 11:15 AM
Yes, please share how my $100 lifetime service purchased in 1999 wasn't a losing proposition for TiVo.
I agree with your statement's point. However - was Lifetime ever only $100? I thought it started out at $199. (which is what mine cost... which I then moved to a Series2 during that offer and recently just moved to another Series2 that they replaced for me)
HDTiVo
09-05-2006, 11:30 AM
Actually a more practical idea (but still unlikely) is to exchange an S2 and no rebate for Lifetime on S3... that way TiVo could put a refurbed S2 back into service.
---
You should go through my posts on the calculations from back around the time it happend (around March/April) to get an understanding.
Zeo: Since I did use actual numbers, it is the people that state Lifetime lost TiVo money that should use the numbers and show their calculations.
As for the specific case, I cannot answer for a particular deal 7 years ago, but TiVo cancelled Lifetime on future S2 sales, and that is really the relevent issue.
ZeoTiVo
09-05-2006, 11:36 AM
You should go through my posts on the calculations from back around the time it happend (around March/April) to get an understanding.
Zeo: Since I did use actual numbers, it is the people that state Lifetime lost TiVo money that should use the numbers and show their calculations.
Ok I missed/do not remember the posts on lifetime costs you made. So I retract that. I still think the opposite though - that high hardware cost in early days of S1 may have made lifetime more proitable than now when you could get a S2 for nothing and then just 299$ as the only money ever for a unit that could be in use 10 years from now.
ah30k
09-05-2006, 11:40 AM
You should go through my posts on the calculations from back around the time it happend (around March/April) to get an understanding.
Zeo: Since I did use actual numbers, it is the people that state Lifetime lost TiVo money that should use the numbers and show their calculations.What a cop-out. I am not going to go back through archives to learn how you came to this conclusion. Could you at least give us a hint at how you calculated a loss?
The onus is on you to back up you claim that TiVo is lying to us.
terryfoster
09-05-2006, 11:41 AM
I agree with your statement's point. However - was Lifetime ever only $100? I thought it started out at $199.
I received an unexpected $100 rebate from TiVo for my $199 lifetime service purchase.
cwoody222
09-05-2006, 11:44 AM
What a cop-out. I am not going to go back through archives to learn how you came to this conclusion. Could you at least give us a hint at how you calculated a loss?
The onus is on you to back up you claim that TiVo is lying to us.
Lying. And changing their business model to one that will result in a net loss to them vs. their previous plan.
I think it's safe to say that if TiVo stopped doing something it was because it didn't make financial sense.
That's why they ceased Lifetime Service.
terryfoster
09-05-2006, 11:44 AM
You should go through my posts on the calculations from back around the time it happend (around March/April) to get an understanding.
Care to post a link to back up your claim?
cwoody222
09-05-2006, 11:56 AM
He's probably talking about somewhere in this thread:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=290514
MickeS
09-05-2006, 12:03 PM
Nope, he's talking about this: TiVo's old Pricing was Profitable (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3843883&&#post3843883)
MickeS
09-05-2006, 12:22 PM
Well I have no idea if the arguments are correct or not but "to take NPVs on single product lines and apply that proft to a whole company" makes sense since TiVO only had one product at the time.
ah30k
09-05-2006, 12:28 PM
Well I have no idea if the arguments are correct or not but "to take NPVs on single product lines and apply that proft to a whole company" makes sense since TiVO only had one product at the time.Then include all of their expenses, not just the $2.25 subscriber costs.
I deleted the post you are referring to because to haven't had time to go through and rebut his arguments thouroughly.
HDTiVo
09-05-2006, 12:41 PM
I received an unexpected $100 rebate from TiVo for my $199 lifetime service purchase.
Well for YOU who got an "unexpected" $100 rebate, I'd bet TiVo lost money in YOUR case. But I have no numbers to back that up. :rolleyes:
HDTiVo
09-05-2006, 12:43 PM
Then include all of their expenses, not just the $2.25 subscriber costs.
I deleted the post you are referring to because to haven't had time to go through and rebut his arguments thouroughly.
You have already lost the rebuttal.
HDTiVo
09-05-2006, 12:45 PM
Which one of you deleted the post that claimed YOU had posted your detailed analysis back then?
Welshdog
09-05-2006, 12:49 PM
I bet one original purpose of the Lifetime sub was to generate cash quickly for Tivo. They got a big chunk of cash from customers all at once not in monthly dribbles. It was also an incentive for those who do not like subscription payments (like me). Startups always need cash, but now (even though they still show a loss) as a more mature company the need is less urgent.
I wonder, did they offer Lifetime from day 1 or did it show up later?
ah30k
09-05-2006, 12:53 PM
You have already lost the rebuttal.There were so many holes in your financial analysis that it is taking me more time to write them all down than I thought. Plus, I actually have some work to do today. Claiming that I lost even before I posted my response to your financial analysis it the height of arrogance.
edit -----
TiVo's Financials
I know TiVo's financials very well. TiVo makes money on subscribers at the old pricing levels, including the $299 Lifetime w/$69 for an 80hr box. Indeed on past earnings calls, when TiVo's all-in costs were higher, the Net Present Value of a subscriber was described as quite positive. So TiVo can't tell me, or the others in this Forum that TiVo needed one more dime per subscriber to make a profit.
Of course their NPVs were positive at the time. Otherwise they would have folded up tent and gone home! The assumptions built into their previous NPV calculations have changed making any past NPVs no longer applicable. The biggest change is the expected useful life. Whether the useful life change makes this swing negative depends on your assumptions regarding costs. I see your note next about what you think the costs are, I’ll address those next.
TiVo's Profits per Subscriber
On a twelve month basis, in FY05 it cost $2.99/mo to service a subscriber. That number FELL to $2.25/mo per sub in FY06. That's right, what it costs TiVo to provide service to a customer FELL $.74/mo this past year vs. last year. An 80hr with Lifetime for $368 up front cost maybe $160 for the box - TiVo's average cost of hardware sales per gross sub addition - plus $2.25/mo for service and falling. At a constant $2.25, TiVo still makes money up to 92+ months out on a subscriber/box. That doesn't count the fact TiVo had the $368 from day one and paid the $2.25/mo over 92 months.
Do they make enough to cover the other cost of operating the company? If you simply use the $2.25 cost of servicing a subscriber, who will pay for R&D? As an investor, I cannot simply invest in TiVo subscribers (Revenue minus $2.25 Service Costs -> returns positive NPV). It’s a package deal, in order to invest in subscribers you also need to invest in this nice little turd (Zero revenue - gobs and gobs of R&D costs etc -> returns negative NPV). How does your positive NPV sound now?
TiVo's Break-even Subscriber Level for FY06
In fact, TiVo made enough money per subscriber under the existing price regime, that if it had had an average of less than 450,000 more SA subs in FY06, the entire company would have broken even. And that includes monies spent on the patent litigation. TiVo's ARPU was $8.83/mo in FY06. Subtracting the $2.25/mo in service cost, the marginal profit per additional sub was $6.56/mo. Dividing this into a 12 month loss of $34.4M means with under 450,000 additional SA subs, The entire TiVo company is break-even. TiVo would have been break-even for FY06 if it had averaged 1.71M instead of 1.27M subs.
Oh, to be able to just ‘wish’ for a half a million more customers on a base of 1.3 million. How do you arrive at the ARPU on a monthly basis? Once again, you are forgetting about all of the other costs not captured in the $2.25 servicing costs.
TiVo's problem is not its pricing, its problem is its number of subscribers is insufficient to pay for the whole company's costs.
WTF? Pricing and number of subscribers are related.
cwoody222
09-05-2006, 12:58 PM
Which one of you deleted the post that claimed YOU had posted your detailed analysis back then?
If it's your contention that TiVo makes more money (or loses less money) under their old plan... what is their motivation for dropping Lifetime?
Or are they simply wrong for doing so? (ie: you think they're making less or losing more under their current plans)
cwoody222
09-05-2006, 12:59 PM
I wonder, did they offer Lifetime from day 1 or did it show up later?
It was offered from Day One.
Partly to compete with ReplayTV's model which basically bundled lifetime service with the price of their box in one flat rate.
jacksonian
09-05-2006, 01:07 PM
I'm getting pretty tired of all the lifetime vs. monthly crap. It's not like anyone is going to care about our "analysis".
Is there any new info on release date?
MurrayJimW
09-05-2006, 01:08 PM
WOW.
Just dropped in to check on the series 3 AVAILABILITY and see if there had been any new developments. I can see that around here there are few new developments but people love to talk about them for months and sometimes years.......
Any chance this thread will ever contain any series 3 news again?
<Vorlon> Yes. </Vorlon>
/jab
tunnelengineer
09-05-2006, 01:45 PM
awesome.....
This thread is not off base at all........
MickeS
09-05-2006, 01:49 PM
WOW.
Just dropped in to check on the series 3 AVAILABILITY and see if there had been any new developments. I can see that around here there are few new developments but people love to talk about them for months and sometimes years.......
Any chance this thread will ever contain any series 3 news again?
NEVER!
HDTiVo
09-05-2006, 03:46 PM
If it's your contention that TiVo makes more money (or loses less money) under their old plan... what is their motivation for dropping Lifetime?
Or are they simply wrong for doing so? (ie: you think they're making less or losing more under their current plans)
Yes, I think they do worse under the New Marketing Plan (NMP) than the old (OMP). I think the results that have come out so far are already showing that.
But more important is how much better TiVo could have done in designing and pricing NMP, leading to much greater results. TiVo is in the process of tweaking NMP in the right direction, but look at the enormous time span, and they still have quite a distance to go.
lessd
09-05-2006, 05:29 PM
Wow !!
TiVo did make money on Lifetime when they used 4 years of support, and probably now that the support cost per sub is less could make money on 6 or 7 year lifetime costing; BUT how much do they make, as it been pointed out we are all talking incremedical profit before the rest of the ad-min cost. The airlines have the same type of problem as they make money on a seat that would sell for $10 (Adv cost about $7.50/seat in incremental cost). But if they sold all the seats for $10 they would out of business quick. If you apply G&A to the sub profit, they are not making money so they must increase the incremental profit/sub somehow. I am not saying their doing correctly now but I not running TiVo and do not have all the information the TiVo people have. If they are incorrect about how to run their business they will go out of business at some point. I just want to enjoy using their product as long as I can. (all of my TiVos are lifetime)
MickeS
09-06-2006, 09:48 AM
Yeah, I guess all the Tivo employees that posted official policy here concerning lifetime service when they stopped offering it for purchase on all products other than the Humax DVD box could have been wrong. :D
I don't explicitly remember "We will not offer customers the chance to transfer existing lifetime service from units that otherwise wouldn't eligible", but I took "Lifetime is not profitable" and "Lifetime gift subscriptions will no longer be sold" as a pretty big hint that "Never" was pretty safe.
So maybe "Never" was a bit harsh.
How about - if they don't, you buy me a Series 3? And if they do, I'll buy you one?
Hey bap, I hope you took jfh3 up on this offer!
:D
HDTiVo
09-06-2006, 09:58 AM
I'm getting pretty tired of all the lifetime vs. monthly crap. It's not like anyone is going to care about our "analysis".
Is there any new info on release date?
Perhaps not, but there seems to be on Lifetime. :D
classicX
09-06-2006, 11:28 AM
What's the subject of this thread again? I forget.
HDTiVo
09-06-2006, 11:35 AM
What's the subject of this thread again? I forget.
The MSRP of the S3. So talking about Lifetime, Rebates, or discounts at retailers should not be allowed.
tunnelengineer
09-06-2006, 11:38 AM
Good job on that worthless speculation about never seeing a lifetime option for S3 units.
(walking away happy.........)
ah30k
09-06-2006, 11:51 AM
Good job on that worthless speculation about never seeing a lifetime option for S3 units.
(walking away happy.........)You win. I would have put money on it never happening. FYI, any speculation that it 'would' happen was equally speculation.
jpwoof
09-06-2006, 11:56 AM
What does MSRP mean?
ah30k
09-06-2006, 11:57 AM
What does MSRP mean?manufacturer's suggested retail price
tunnelengineer
09-06-2006, 12:09 PM
I don't think there was ever speculation that it would happen, just hoping.
My over 5 yr old S1 tivo is happy to be retiring in another year or so. He can leave his legacy to the new S3.
I think everyone is happy with the option though. You can take it or leave it as you wish. Just as long as it's before mid January. Fair deal Tivo. Now just please say the unit is less than $799.
classicX
09-06-2006, 12:10 PM
manufacturer's suggested retail price
Which, in some cases, the manufacturer can "enforce" the MSRP (as in, force the retailer to sell it for that price and no less).
Automobilie manufacturers don't enforce it. Bose does (very strictly).
Does anyone know if Tivo enforces it strictly? I've never purchases a Tivo retail so I wouldn't know.
bkdtv
09-06-2006, 12:11 PM
Does anyone know if Tivo enforces it strictly?
They do not.
Hey bap, I hope you took jfh3 up on this offer!
:D
No, he didn't, but the offer is hereby withdrawn. :)
I'm having some crow for lunch if the new rumor about a $199 transfer is true.
I don't understand why Tivo would want to do this or why it would be for LESS than lifetime was recently sold at ($299).
It should move more boxes though.
All I can think of is that there is some other marketing reason to move as many people to the Series 3 - like paid video downloads only available to Series 3 users.
bkdtv
09-06-2006, 12:57 PM
All I can think of is that there is some other marketing reason to move as many people to the Series 3 - like paid video downloads only available to Series 3 users.
They an do a lot more with Internet delivery using MPEG-4 and VC-1 than they can with MPEG-2. The Xbox360 already has 720p HDTV trailers for upcoming TV shows and movies available for download in MPEG-4/VC-1 format.
A 720p HDTV stream in AVC (MPEG-4) format takes 5-6Mbps, and DVD-quality streams require about half that. A high percentage of Series3 buyers are likely to have broadband Internet.
etsolow
09-06-2006, 12:58 PM
...or why it would be for LESS than lifetime was recently sold at ($299).
Because it's a TRANSFER fee for a previously purchased lifetime?
AJRitz
09-06-2006, 01:02 PM
I just did the math, and even at $800 with the S3 allowing me to dump my DirecTV subscription (I already subscribe to Time-Warner cable as well for HD content, as I'm too far away from local towers - and down in a valley - to get OTA HD locals) I'll come out ahead. The hardware pays for itself the first year, and the subscription costs will lag well behind the DirecTV programming costs. I think I'll wait until I finish up this year's NFL Sunday Ticket before purchasing, but I can't imagine I'll wait too much longer after that (and maybe less if I can work a Humax DVD Tivo + lifetime service + transfer lifetime to S3 monte).
MickeS
09-06-2006, 01:26 PM
All I can think of is that there is some other marketing reason to move as many people to the Series 3 - like paid video downloads only available to Series 3 users.
I'm sure that there are services planned for the S3 for which TiVo need as big a customer base as soon as possible in order to sell it to providers, and that's the reason they're doing this.
cwoody222
09-06-2006, 01:37 PM
I'm sure that there are services planned for the S3 for which TiVo need as big a customer base as soon as possible in order to sell it to providers, and that's the reason they're doing this.
Any type of service like that (TiVo icons in commercials, video downloads) are all capable on the S2. Same with all the HME stuff.
Other than, obviously, the ability to record HD content and faster processors and the like (to handle those bigger video files) there's really nothing new that TiVo needs to sell content.
The differences (again, aside from HD) between the capabilities of the S1 vs the S2 were much greater than the differences between the S2 vs the S3.
EDIT: Plus, the S2 installed userbase is much larger than the S1 was so they'd be silly to pin their future on things that won't work on the S2.
greg_burns
09-06-2006, 01:47 PM
Any type of service like that (TiVo icons in commercials, video downloads) are all capable on the S2. Same with all the HME stuff.
Not if they wanted the video downloads to be MPEG-4.
Because it's a TRANSFER fee for a previously purchased lifetime?
Allegedly users will also get another year of service on the transfer-from box.
You really think people that people that would take the deal at $199 wouldn't take it at $299?
People have been saying they'd pay $299, $399, $499 for lifetime, which seems to be supported by eBay lifetime gift card sales ($450-$800).
$199 seems to be leaving a lot of money on the table for no reason.
Plus, the S2 installed userbase is much larger than the S1 was so they'd be silly to pin their future on things that won't work on the S2.
Agreed, that's the risk.
People have been saying they'd pay $299, $399, $499 for lifetime, which seems to be supported by eBay lifetime gift card sales ($450-$800).
But the big difference is that this is $199 to transfer an existing lifetime. All those people who say they'd pay $499 for a lifetime want a new lifetime agreement, not a transfer of an existing one.
cwoody222
09-06-2006, 01:57 PM
Not if they wanted the video downloads to be MPEG-4.
Yea, but I don't think that matters to much to the advertisers.
You think CBS really cared about the video quality that much when signing their deal to distribute some of their new fall shows to TiVo users? Nah.
ChuckyBox
09-06-2006, 02:07 PM
You really think people that people that would take the deal at $199 wouldn't take it at $299?
People have been saying they'd pay $299, $399, $499 for lifetime, which seems to be supported by eBay lifetime gift card sales ($450-$800).
$199 seems to be leaving a lot of money on the table for no reason.
But at $299, it isn't really a transfer, it is just selling lifetime subscriptions again, which the don't want to do. And the logistics would be weird because it would only be available to some buyers, not others. Since one reason to do this is to placate current subs, offering a TRANSFER of service for a low, low, one-time-only price does the trick. Existing subs are happy, and new subs or monthly subs just shrug it off -- it doesn't apply to them.
TiVo will also make money on the S3 hardware, I imagine, so selling the box plus the transfer fee is going to be a nice return for them. This might also help them sell enough more units to get some economy of scale on the production.
I imagine monthly subs will get some kind of hardware discount offer in Q1.
ChuckyBox
09-06-2006, 02:10 PM
You think CBS really cared about the video quality that much when signing their deal to distribute some of their new fall shows to TiVo users? Nah.
I think the point is that if you want to rent people movies via download, MPEG4 is faster and more economical than MPEG2 because the compression is better.
cwoody222
09-06-2006, 02:15 PM
I think the point is that if you want to rent people movies via download, MPEG4 is faster and more economical than MPEG2 because the compression is better.
Ah yes, that makes sense.
If a movie download service is imminent.
And whether they think a large enough group of people (in a short timeframe) will take advantage and move from a S2 to an S3 to make a real different. I doubt it.
I really think the S3 transfer option is really just a 'good will' thing for their loyalty customers. And for that :up:
With S2 they did have the incentive to move people to a box capable of HMO features and move them to broadband and there's probably some reason to get users to the S3 but I like to think it's mostly just as a gift to us.
(and trust me, I'm usually not at all optimistic... check out my Mac/TiVo posts!)
greg_burns
09-06-2006, 02:29 PM
Allegedly users will also get another year of service on the transfer-from box.
You really think people that people that would take the deal at $199 wouldn't take it at $299?
People have been saying they'd pay $299, $399, $499 for lifetime, which seems to be supported by eBay lifetime gift card sales ($450-$800).
$199 seems to be leaving a lot of money on the table for no reason.
And why give away another year of service on the transfer-from box? Who here wouldn't take this offer even w/o that added plus?
greg_burns
09-06-2006, 02:31 PM
Yea, but I don't think that matters to much to the advertisers.
You think CBS really cared about the video quality that much when signing their deal to distribute some of their new fall shows to TiVo users? Nah.
Is there any quality difference between MPEG-2 vs MPEG-4? If anything, I would think MPEG-2 would be "better". I could be wrong though.
bkdtv
09-06-2006, 02:39 PM
Is there any quality difference between MPEG-2 vs MPEG-4? If anything, I would think MPEG-2 would be "better". I could be wrong though.
MPEG-4 does everything MPEG-2 does and much more. AVC (MPEG4 H.264) is one of the formats used by HD-DVD and Blu-ray. It delivers MPEG-2 HDTV quality in 30% to 50% less bandwidth, depending on the content.
btwyx
09-06-2006, 02:39 PM
Is there any quality difference between MPEG-2 vs MPEG-4? If anything, I would think MPEG-2 would be "better". I could be wrong though.The theory is that MPEG-4 allows the same quality encoding as MPEG-2 at a lower bit rate, or conversly, higher quality encoding at the same bit rate.
In other words, MPEG-4 is supposed to be better.
classicX
09-06-2006, 02:40 PM
I really think the S3 transfer option is really just a 'good will' thing for their loyalty customers. And for that :up:
I must applaud your positive view of Tivo in assuming they would do anything "for the customer" without any benefit to themselves.
However, I must also disagree with your assessment. They have a motivation for moving people to the S3, albeit unbeknownst to us.
a) They could be charging enough money on S3 to significantly offset the "cost" of allowing lifetime on that Tivo.
b) They could be hoping for a big S3 installed base in order to squeeze more advertising revenue.
c) They could be hoping that the majority of people with working S1's and S2's wouldn't just use them for that last year and them mothball them - instead ending up paying again for a subscription or selling or giving the box away to someone who will pay for it.
Or all of the above. I just cannot assume that Tivo, who "hates" lifetime enough to get rid of it, would suddenly offer this, and only for S3 units, not for say, single-tuner users wanted to move their lifetime to a DT unit.
It's <Vizzini>INCONCEIVABLE</Vizzini>.
tomaq
09-06-2006, 02:41 PM
This morning in a bout of insomnia, I actually watched my tv while it was recording TiVo-supplied content. There was Shannon in a fancy dress talking about Series 3 with HD. Here is what she said
-25 hour capacity
-Can transfer existing lifetime subscription to S3 for $199 (added bonus is the TiVo you are transferring from is credited 1 year of subscription service so you can keep it running)
-Points us to tivo's website /vip to do the purchase and setup the transfer (last I checked, this URL didn't do anything
Couldn't find this content afterwards, but I'm sure it wasn't a dream...
zoma4
09-06-2006, 02:45 PM
This morning in a bout of insomnia, I actually watched my tv while it was recording TiVo-supplied content. There was Shannon in a fancy dress talking about Series 3 with HD. Here is what she said
-25 hour capacity
-Can transfer existing lifetime subscription to S3 for $199 (added bonus is the TiVo you are transferring from is credited 1 year of subscription service so you can keep it running)
-Points us to tivo's website /vip to do the purchase and setup the transfer (last I checked, this URL didn't do anything
Couldn't find this content afterwards, but I'm sure it wasn't a dream...
Very good news if you ask me!
a) They could be charging enough money on S3 to significantly offset the "cost" of allowing lifetime on that Tivo.
b) They could be hoping for a big S3 installed base in order to squeeze more advertising revenue.
c) They could be hoping that the majority of people with working S1's and S2's wouldn't just use them for that last year and them mothball them - instead ending up paying again for a subscription or selling or giving the box away to someone who will pay for it.
Don't forget
d) They may have plans for new features in the S3 and want to get a critical mass out to the market before rolling them out.
e) The more S3's out "in the wild" the more free advertising they get, especially as HD continues to gain popularity.
MickeS
09-06-2006, 04:47 PM
Well, whoopdee doo... I just had to spend almost as much as a Series 3 TiVo costs... on dental work.... blah... what a waste :(
what a waste :(
TiVo or your teeth? :)
ReikiBoy
09-06-2006, 05:00 PM
Well, whoopdee doo... I just had to spend almost as much as a Series 3 TiVo costs... on dental work.... blah... what a waste :(
The dental work was a waste? How long do you expect your dental work to last? In the computer biz a particular product is expected to last 7 years. Development of newer models overlaps by about 4 years. Won't your dental work give you more years of satisfaction? :)
Bierboy
09-06-2006, 05:04 PM
I'll watch my TiVo until my teeth rot!!
HDTiVo
09-06-2006, 05:11 PM
Well, whoopdee doo... I just had to spend almost as much as a Series 3 TiVo costs... on dental work.... blah... what a waste :(
But you got Lifetime with that, no?
kdmorse
09-06-2006, 05:12 PM
-Points us to tivo's website /vip to do the purchase and setup the transfer (last I checked, this URL didn't do anything
It does now, but it's just a redirect to -> http://www.tivo.com/series3hdDvr.asp
-Ken
Sunday is the beginning of a week for retail stores.
dr_mal
09-06-2006, 05:47 PM
Has anyone considered the fact that the 17th is a Sunday? I'm no expert, but I find it unlikely that a new piece of gear would first become available on a Sunday
I waited outside a Best Buy all night until they opened on Sunday morning so I could snap up an XBox360. This wasn't right at launch, but they had it in their Sunday morning flyer, so they couldn't sell them until Sunday at opening.
Perfectly logical time to launch a new piece of gear.
greg_burns
09-06-2006, 05:54 PM
With all this talk of BestBuy getting it on a certain day, is there any reason to think that other retailers (Amazon, Buy.com) wouldn't have it the same day or not too much later? I have some Buy.com coupons burning a hole in my pocket.
Will I be able to hook my Comcast digital cable (via the RCA pin) into the Tivo Series 3, like I do with my 3412 DVR, and record 2 HD programs or do I need to get a cable card?
bidger
09-06-2006, 06:05 PM
With all this talk of BestBuy getting it on a certain day, is there any reason to think that other retailers (Amazon, Buy.com) wouldn't have it the same day or not too much later? I have some Buy.com coupons burning a hole in my pocket.
The only thing that might hinder it, Greg, is if BB has a limited term exclusivity deal with TiVo, like D* has with BB for the HR20-700.
I'm not saying that TiVo does, but it would slow the release to online retailers if they do.
Dan203
09-06-2006, 06:13 PM
With all this talk of BestBuy getting it on a certain day, is there any reason to think that other retailers (Amazon, Buy.com) wouldn't have it the same day or not too much later? I have some Buy.com coupons burning a hole in my pocket.
I've got some Amazon.com gift certificates I'd like to apply toward a S3 as well. Although if they don't have them right away I'll probably buy one at full price on day one, then hold off on the second one until they do.
Dan
Dan203
09-06-2006, 06:14 PM
Will I be able to hook my Comcast digital cable (via the RCA pin) into the Tivo Series 3, like I do with my 3412 DVR, and record 2 HD programs or do I need to get a cable card?
The S3 will NOT record from any external box. It'll record from antenna and cable, that's it!
Dan
zalusky
09-06-2006, 06:43 PM
The S3 will NOT record from any external box. It'll record from antenna and cable, that's it!
Dan
What if the external box uses channel 3 out and you do a channel 3 merge to your existing antenna coax. There are plenty of setups to do that at places like hometech and the like.
You would probably have to set manual recordings for that channel and have a smart remote change the settop box channel but its possible and you will get the crappiest resolution but it is doable just not desireable.
MickeS
09-06-2006, 07:08 PM
zalusky, yeah, can't believe they haven't mentioned that! :rolleyes:
Bierboy
09-06-2006, 07:09 PM
zalusky, yeah, can't believe they haven't mentioned that! :rolleyes:This was mentioned months ago in TCF....not a new idea.
MickeS
09-06-2006, 07:10 PM
BestBuy often have special sales for BB card and/or Zone card holders... that's how I got my LCD TV for 12% off. I hope they'll have one soon again and that it'll include the S3... that would be $100 off :)
ChuckyBox
09-06-2006, 07:52 PM
What if the external box uses channel 3 out and you do a channel 3 merge to your existing antenna coax. There are plenty of setups to do that at places like hometech and the like.
You would probably have to set manual recordings for that channel and have a smart remote change the settop box channel but its possible and you will get the crappiest resolution but it is doable just not desireable.
You could also take the analog out from the cable box and run it into a transmitter broadcasting on a certain channel, then use an antenna to receive the signal and run it into the S3's antenna port to record it. Sure it's stupid and expensive and illegal, but it solves the problem of using the S3 and an external box, so go for it.
Dan203
09-06-2006, 07:55 PM
What if the external box uses channel 3 out and you do a channel 3 merge to your existing antenna coax. There are plenty of setups to do that at places like hometech and the like.
You would probably have to set manual recordings for that channel and have a smart remote change the settop box channel but its possible and you will get the crappiest resolution but it is doable just not desireable.
That would work, but unlike the S2 units the S3 will not have serial or IR ports so it will have no way of actually controlling the external box. So unless you only want to record one channel it really wouldn't be a viable option.
Dan
zalusky
09-06-2006, 07:59 PM
That would work, but unlike the S2 units the S3 will not have serial or IR ports so it will have no way of actually controlling the external box. So unless you only want to record one channel it really wouldn't be a viable option.
Dan
I agree, buy the appropriate tool and enjoy. Some people however like to complicate things. And ofcourse some of those people are the cable company with SDV and this is where some people would try to do this.
Dan203
09-06-2006, 08:09 PM
Such a person would be much better off picking up a S2 to record the SDV channels. It would be a whole lot easier then anything you might be able to put together using a S3.
Dan
MickeS
09-06-2006, 08:47 PM
The dental work was a waste? How long do you expect your dental work to last? In the computer biz a particular product is expected to last 7 years. Development of newer models overlaps by about 4 years. Won't your dental work give you more years of satisfaction? :)
Given my dental hygiene, a Series 3 would probably have been a better investment if you look at yearly expenses. ;)
Still, it really did annoy me... the pain started yesterday, and it was so bad that as soon as it started I was thinking to myself "damn, this is gonna cost as much as a Series 3 TiVo..." and it did - almost exactly ($815). :(
I might have to buy a S3 just to cheer myself up.
greg_burns
09-06-2006, 08:52 PM
Given my dental hygiene, a Series 3 would probably have been a better investment if you look at yearly expenses. ;)
Still, it really did annoy me... the pain started yesterday, and it was so bad that as soon as it started I was thinking to myself "damn, this is gonna cost as much as a Series 3 TiVo..." and it did - almost exactly ($815). :(
I might have to buy a S3 just to cheer myself up.
But can you tune any OTA HD with the new fillings?
kb7oeb
09-06-2006, 10:01 PM
Sure it's stupid and expensive and illegal, but it solves the problem of using the S3 and an external box, so go for it.
Modulators are cheap and there is nothing illegal about them, but it would be stupid :)
drew2k
09-06-2006, 10:56 PM
With all this talk of BestBuy getting it on a certain day, is there any reason to think that other retailers (Amazon, Buy.com) wouldn't have it the same day or not too much later? I have some Buy.com coupons burning a hole in my pocket.Hmm ... I wonder if Costco will carry the Series 3?
For comparison purposes, Costco sells (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11120394&search=tivo&Sp=S&Mo=12&cm_re=1-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&N=0&whse=&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=All&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=tivo&Ntt=tivo&No=3&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1) the 180 Hour S2 DT TiVo for $299, while Best Buy has it (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7713851&st=tivo&lp=2&type=product&cp=1&id=1140394006250) for $349 (both prices are before any rebates).
If Costco carries the S3, does anyone think Costco would have anywhere close to the same savings on the S3 as on the DT? If I did the math right, it's 15% cheaper at Costco, and if life was good to me, the $800 MSRP on the S3 would be approx. $680 at Costco! This is pure speculation on my part that the same discounted rate is used, but I have a $169 reward check from my Executive membership and that would NICELY reduce the S3 price to a little over $500 - a price that is nice and comfy for me! :)
tunnelengineer
09-07-2006, 08:24 AM
Good luck with that. I doubt they will have it available within the first few months. It would probably be after the holidays at the earliest.
If they would have it right away, I would think it would be priced the same as everywhere else.
MickeS
09-07-2006, 09:54 AM
Yeah, Costco normally doesn't get stuff right when it's released, but itmight be worth the wait. They are almost always cheaper than any other retail store.
Bierboy
09-07-2006, 10:07 AM
Crutchfield also indicated to me in an e-mail that they, eventually, will have the S3. But they said it might not be until the holiday season. A search for "TiVo" on their Web site yields nothing right now.
greg_burns
09-07-2006, 10:28 AM
Crutchfield also indicated to me in an e-mail that they, eventually, will have the S3. But they said it might not be until the holiday season. A search for "TiVo" on their Web site yields nothing right now.
I love Crutchfield, but their prices are never very competitive. I won't be shopping for an S3 there (nor BestBuy :down: ).
Bierboy
09-07-2006, 10:48 AM
I love Crutchfield, but their prices are never very competitive. I won't be shopping for an S3 there (nor BestBuy :down: ).I agree their prices are ALWAYS higher, but you absolutely cannot beat their customer service. And their return policies.
greg_burns
09-07-2006, 10:57 AM
I agree their prices are ALWAYS higher, but you absolutely cannot beat their customer service. And their return policies.
Can I get an amen!
But can you say the same for BestBuy? :rolleyes:
Bierboy
09-07-2006, 10:59 AM
Can I get an amen!
But can you say the same for BestBuy? :rolleyes:Oh, absolutely NOT.
Will I be able to hook my Comcast digital cable (via the RCA pin) into the Tivo Series 3, like I do with my 3412 DVR, and record 2 HD programs or do I need to get a cable card?
Let me clarify my question. I mean, can I connect the cable wire that comes through the wall that I currently have connected to a 3412 STB, to the S3 directly, (and get rid of the 3412) and record 2 HD programs at the same time?
yunlin12
09-07-2006, 11:07 AM
Yes, you need to get cable cards. I believe cable co's are still using single stream cable cards, so one card can only provide one channel at a time. To make the S3 DT work, you need to put in 2 cards.
Yes, you need to get cable cards. I believe cable co's are still using single stream cable cards, so one card can only provide one channel at a time. To make the S3 DT work, you need to put in 2 cards.
I wonder how willing Comcast will be to install 2 cablecards in a non-Comcast box. Might be difficult. Also, if there is any difficulty, which there usually is with cablecards, will they be willing to work it out?
cmaasfamily
09-07-2006, 11:23 AM
I wonder how willing Comcast will be to install 2 cablecards in a non-Comcast box. Might be difficult. Also, if there is any difficulty, which there usually is with cablecards, will they be willing to work it out?
Well, there are no Comcast boxes that accept cable cards, so that shouldn't be a factor. I have two cable card TV's on my Comcast account. No problems with installation or operation. (OK, long lead time to get an installer and took three months for them to figure out my billing - but that was nearly a year ago; smooth sailing since then.)
cwoody222
09-07-2006, 11:23 AM
I wonder how willing Comcast will be to install 2 cablecards in a non-Comcast box. Might be difficult. Also, if there is any difficulty, which there usually is with cablecards, will they be willing to work it out?
They have to supply CableCards. They have to support approved products (which TiVo is one). You're their customer. Make them work it out.
EDIT: This is TiVo's communication to cable co's regarding them offering Cablecards to their devices.
http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2006/09/ad_to_tv_indust.html
jsmeeker
09-07-2006, 11:25 AM
I wonder how willing Comcast will be to install 2 cablecards in a non-Comcast box. Might be difficult. Also, if there is any difficulty, which there usually is with cablecards, will they be willing to work it out?
Comcast (and every other cable company) would never be installing a CableCARD in a Comcast (or whatever) box. The whole point of the CableCARD is to NOT have the cable box from your cable company.
Comcast (and every other cable company) would never be installing a CableCARD in a Comcast (or whatever) box. The whole point of the CableCARD is to NOT have the cable box from your cable company.
O.K. I understand.
So is the only functionality that will be lost if I use an S3 the loss of the video-on-demand service? Comcast charges the same monthly fee for a cable card as they do for their DVR STB, so if I kept my 3412 for VOD, I'd end up paying for it as well as 2 cablecards = triple what I currently pay.
sommerfeld
09-07-2006, 11:51 AM
Comcast (and every other cable company) would never be installing a CableCARD in a Comcast (or whatever) box. The whole point of the CableCARD is to NOT have the cable box from your cable company.
There appears to be an additional FCC regulation presently scheduled to take effect in July 2007 which will essentially require cableco's to use cable cards in the STB's they rent, putting their STB's on equal footing with third-party devices.
See:
CableCard Swipes at Set-Top Boxes, http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,71682-0.html?tw=wn_technology_1
Cable companies lose round in CableCard battle, http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-6107359.html
cwoody222
09-07-2006, 11:52 AM
Why would someone rent a cable co's box AND rent a cable co's cablecard?
Jazhuis
09-07-2006, 11:57 AM
Comcast (and every other cable company) would never be installing a CableCARD in a Comcast (or whatever) box. The whole point of the CableCARD is to NOT have the cable box from your cable company.
Not true, actually. The current FCC mandate states that by...sometime next year (until they drag their feet again)...ALL cable-capable boxes must use Cablecards. So even the cable companys' set top boxes will be a Motorola or SA or whatever box with a CC slot.
Again, though, that's how I understand the current mandate to be, and that's assuming the FCC actually has enough of a spine to make it stick.
nhey: Interesting...I think Comcast's CC fees differ by area, some are free (for the first card), or just $1-2. You might want to ask again. Although I thought there was some regulation saying that they were supposed to impose no additional cost. (Although I guess Comcast saying "no additional cost...more than what you would have been paying us anyway.")
sommerfeld
09-07-2006, 11:58 AM
Why would someone rent a cable co's box AND rent a cable co's cablecard?
because in the post july 2007 world, the cable co's box would be about as capable as a brick without the cable card. presumably the cableco will rent you box + cablecard for $X, or just a cablecard for $Y, witih X >= Y.
cwoody222
09-07-2006, 12:04 PM
So in the future we have to rent 2 'things' and have more possibility for something to break or something not to work quite right? Instead of having ONE STB that does it all? Sounds like a step backwards to me?
And what about things like VOD? Will 2.0 standards be depoloyed and approved by July 07? If not, how will VOD or cable co's channel guides work?
Why would someone rent a cable co's box AND rent a cable co's cablecard?
The cable co's box would provide PPV and video-0n-demand, while the cablecards are needed for the TIVO S3 for digital ( and all HD) programming.
I called Comcast in my area a few months ago and was told the montly fee for a cable card = the fee for their DVR STB because the cable card "replaces it".
classicX
09-07-2006, 12:12 PM
Comcast (and every other cable company) would never be installing a CableCARD in a Comcast (or whatever) box. The whole point of the CableCARD is to NOT have the cable box from your cable company.
When I had CableVision, their STBs had cable cards in them. My comcast boxes do not, however.
TK421
09-07-2006, 12:12 PM
So in the future we have to rent 2 'things' and have more possibility for something to break or something not to work quite right? Instead of having ONE STB that does it all? Sounds like a step backwards to me?
I don't think you'll really have to rent two things, just all STB will use the cable card technology. They'll most likely come with the CC already installed and operational. It will be similar to using a satellite receiver with a smart card.
And what about things like VOD? Will 2.0 standards be depoloyed and approved by July 07? If not, how will VOD or cable co's channel guides work?
Good question. I would guess that if the 2.0 standards aren't complete, this will be the reason the cable companies give to the FCC to extend the deadline.
classicX
09-07-2006, 12:17 PM
So in the future we have to rent 2 'things' and have more possibility for something to break or something not to work quite right? Instead of having ONE STB that does it all? Sounds like a step backwards to me?
And what about things like VOD? Will 2.0 standards be depoloyed and approved by July 07? If not, how will VOD or cable co's channel guides work?
In any case, I would think that the cable company boxes will use the cablecard for decrypting and mapping channels, but the VOD and interactive Guide and PPV would work just as they do now. Why would that change?
Why would someone rent a cable co's box AND rent a cable co's cablecard?
The cable co's box would provide PPV and video-0n-demand, while the cablecards are needed for the TIVO S3 for digital ( and all HD) programming.
I just called Comcast and was told the cablecard is "free". That's good news.
How does the S3 get it's program guide for Comcast programming? Is it obtained from comcast over the cablecard?
cwoody222
09-07-2006, 12:42 PM
T
How does the S3 get it's program guide for Comcast programming? Is it obtained from comcast over the cablecard?
No, it's obtained from Tribune Media / Zap2It.com like all other SA TiVos.
Note... I advise anyone in the market for a S3 and want to use OTA HD to visit zap2it.com to check whether your local listings are correct.
Lots of my sub-channels are completely wrong :(
I sent an email to have them corrected but that could take time / effort.
morac
09-07-2006, 12:44 PM
I just called Comcast and was told the cablecard is "free". That's good news. I'd call them again, because that is definately not true. Comcast charges the same rental price for a box or a card. Some packages include the box rental fee which would mean the box would be "free". If you replaced the box with the cablecard the cablecard would also be "free". If you added a card, you'd have to pay an extra $5.
I'm not sure what Comcast's take is on having 2 cards in one device. I would assume they would charge for two cards, but others have said that they actually charge per device which would only charge for one card. Personally I don't see how Comcast can charge the same rental fee for a > $400 cable box as a < $50 cable card.
classicX
09-07-2006, 12:52 PM
I'd call them again, because that is definately not true. Comcast charges the same rental price for a box or a card. Some packages include the box rental fee which would mean the box would be "free". If you replaced the box with the cablecard the cablecard would also be "free". If you added a card, you'd have to pay an extra $5.
I'm not sure what Comcast's take is on having 2 cards in one device. I would assume they would charge for two cards, but others have said that they actually charge per device which would only charge for one card. Personally I don't see how Comcast can charge the same rental fee for a > $400 cable box as a < $50 cable card.
You'd call them again and you'd be wasting your time. Comcast charges differently for CableCard in different areas.
In New Jersey, for me, Cablecard is FREE.
Installation is not, though.
Jazhuis
09-07-2006, 12:52 PM
How does the S3 get it's program guide for Comcast programming? Is it obtained from comcast over the cablecard?
No, program guide should still be coming from Tivo via phone or network. The cablecard's primary purpose at that point is twofold:
1. Unencrypt the digital channels you subscribe to.
2. Correctly map the QAM subchannels to the Comcast channels. Tivo's guide information is going to be based on the Comcast numbers (they rarely change).
drew2k
09-07-2006, 12:53 PM
When I had CableVision, their STBs had cable cards in them. My comcast boxes do not, however.That probably wasn't a cablecard in the Cablevision box - it was most likely a "smart card" that authorized the receiver, much like the DirecTV or Dish cards. CableCards are like PCMCIA cards - much thicker than the credit-card sized smart cards.
MichaelK
09-07-2006, 01:29 PM
The cable co's box would provide PPV and video-0n-demand, while the cablecards are needed for the TIVO S3 for digital ( and all HD) programming.
I called Comcast in my area a few months ago and was told the montly fee for a cable card = the fee for their DVR STB because the cable card "replaces it".
I believe cablecards are free from comcast.
The big 5 cablco's basically agreed to rent them for $2 or less so the FCC wouldn't regulate a price.
BUT they can charge an "addtional outlet fee". If you get a STB from them it apparently would cost box rental + addtioanl outlet fee, if you get a tivo it will apparently cost nothing for cablecard but likely an addtional outlet fee.
At least that's how I understand it currently....
MichaelK
09-07-2006, 01:30 PM
...
Good question. I would guess that if the 2.0 standards aren't complete, this will be the reason the cable companies give to the FCC to extend the deadline.
apparently they can use one way cablecards for security and still have proprietary stuff in the box for VOD and SDV and the like. Search for posts from DT_DC, he explains it best.
dt_dc
09-07-2006, 01:48 PM
apparently they can use one way cablecards for security and still have proprietary stuff in the box for VOD and SDV and the like. Search for posts from DT_DC, he explains it best.This was the post:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4323142&&#post4323142
Here's an example of the kind of boxes cable suppliers have been showing in case the integration ban holds ... and OCAP / DCAS isn't fully rolled out. The SciAtl 8300HDC. A CableCard DVR, but runs all the same existing software (guide, VOD, SDV, DVR, etc) as the existing SciAtl 8300HD. Ie, basically it looks acts and feels just like existing cable boxes ... it just uses the CableCard for security:
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/ExplorerClubGuides/getting_started/4013171.pdf
I wish I could find the link to it again ... there was an interview in one of the trade magizines with a couple cable CTOs talking about DCAS and if the integration ban holds ... and DCAS isn't ready to go yet ... cable's suppliers are ready to start providing these boxes ...
MichaelK
09-07-2006, 01:58 PM
thank you sir.
always a pleasure!
greenstork
09-07-2006, 06:50 PM
Why would someone rent a cable co's box AND rent a cable co's cablecard?
Cable viewing in two rooms?
boblip11
09-08-2006, 09:18 AM
Why would someone rent a cable co's box AND rent a cable co's cablecard?
I have this situation. (But the cablecard is free after a $30 install)
My SA box from comcast only always outputs at 1080i even for analog channels. I hate the sidebars on analog channels (like most people)...but the zoom capability on the SA box is really bad. My Aquos does a much better job...so I have a cablecard to let me have the Aquos do the zooming. If I am watch HD live...I think the quality is better with the cablecard than the Sci-Atlantic box.
I am at bit bummed that I cannot just take the cablecard out of my TV and put it into my HDTivo...but I will be getting a HDTivo ASAP...the SA cable DVR has reduced my wife to tears several times. The UI is just terrible. She would rather watch shows in SD on the upstairs TIVO than try to get the show in HD on the cable DVR.
nathanziarek
09-08-2006, 09:57 AM
I hate the sidebars on analog channels (like most people)
FWIW, not me. I prefer to see then entire frame and the people not look like fat midgets. Letterboxing never bothered me, either.
I've read a number of threads here, but no one really seems to nail this question: Have we been guaranteed that the S3 will not have TTG/MRV out of the gate but it is expected soon after? Or is everything regarding those two features pure speculation at this time?
n
bkdtv
09-08-2006, 10:24 AM
I've read a number of threads here, but no one really seems to nail this question: Have we been guaranteed that the S3 will not have TTG/MRV out of the gate but it is expected soon after? Or is everything regarding those two features pure speculation at this time?
Tivo has said they will be supporting MRV, but we don't know if will be supported from day one. Tivo has also said there could be some restrictions on what HDTV channels will work with MRV and TivoToGo, so we'll have to wait and see about that.
dr_mal
09-08-2006, 11:16 AM
FWIW, not me. I prefer to see then entire frame and the people not look like fat midgets. Letterboxing never bothered me, either.
+1
Of course, since I went HD, the amount of 4:3 SD programming I watch is pretty much zero anyway.
ZeoTiVo
09-08-2006, 11:24 AM
Tivo has said they will be supporting MRV, but we don't know if will be supported from day one. Tivo has also said there could be some restrictions on what HDTV channels will work with MRV and TivoToGo, so we'll have to wait and see about that.
TiVo has said they would like to and yes anything about these two features is speculation
ufo4sale
09-08-2006, 11:29 AM
stupid question but wouldn't it be painfully slow to transfer an HD show from one Tivo to another using MRV?
MickeS
09-08-2006, 11:41 AM
stupid question but wouldn't it be painfully slow to transfer an HD show from one Tivo to another using MRV?
Depends on whether they changed the way they process the file with regards to DRM or not, and what other hardware changes there are. If it's exactly the same as S2, yes it would be painfully slow.
I am at bit bummed that I cannot just take the cablecard out of my TV and put it into my HDTivo...
Actually, you should be able to do this. But you will have to call the cable company have have them reprovision the card.
etsolow
09-08-2006, 12:00 PM
Or, possibly, they'll require a truck roll to come out, plug the card into the Tivo for you and call in the info.
jeffrypennock
09-08-2006, 12:12 PM
FWIW, not me. I prefer to see then entire frame and the people not look like fat midgets. Letterboxing never bothered me, either.
n
Fat midgets piss me off.
dt_dc
09-08-2006, 01:26 PM
My SA box from comcast only always outputs at 1080i even for analog channels.BTW, the only SciAtl box that is locked into 1080i is the 3100HD. All SciAtl's other boxes allow for outputting different formats (or even 'native' output where the output is exactly as recorded with no conversion by the box).
If you have a 3100HD ... call Comcast and ask for a swap (to the 3250HD).
If you have any other SciAtl box ...
If you're running SARA (which most Comcast SciAtl plants seem to be running) see the following for how to set up the box to output formats other than 1080i:
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/ExplorerClubGuides/getting_started/4003114B.pdf
Note: allow for some minor differences with what you may see due to software version differences
If you're running Passport ... I'm 99% sure they have a way to do something similar but ... I don't have Passport so I don't have the links / instructions handy.
Dan203
09-08-2006, 01:40 PM
stupid question but wouldn't it be painfully slow to transfer an HD show from one Tivo to another using MRV?
The S3 has built in Ethernet. So if you have two units connected directly to a 10/100 network then you should be able to transfer HD between them in about half realtime. (realworld throughput of 10/100 Ethernet is about 45Mbps. HDTV is about 20Mbps) TiVoToGo is a different story. For that the bottle neck is the processor as it has the sole responsibility of multiplexing the audio and video data into a standard MPEG-2 programs stream. If the processor is fast then it should have no problem keeping pace with the speed of the network. However if it's not then it could be painfully slow. We'll just have to wait and see on that one.
Dan
MichaelK
09-08-2006, 02:10 PM
.... TiVoToGo is a different story. For that the bottle neck is the processor as it has the sole responsibility of multiplexing the audio and video data into a standard MPEG-2 programs stream. If the processor is fast then it should have no problem keeping pace with the speed of the network. However if it's not then it could be painfully slow. We'll just have to wait and see on that one.
Dan
wow- thanks for that explanation- I couldn't figure out why TTG is as slow as it is with my series2.
classicX
09-08-2006, 03:37 PM
FWIW, not me. I prefer to see then entire frame and the people not look like fat midgets. Letterboxing never bothered me, either.
I've read a number of threads here, but no one really seems to nail this question: Have we been guaranteed that the S3 will not have TTG/MRV out of the gate but it is expected soon after? Or is everything regarding those two features pure speculation at this time?
n
I prefer the screen to be filled, especially on my plasma. I bought the pixels, I'm sure going to use them. I love it when I get a show in 4:3 that is also letterboxed. The pictures is bordered by black on all sides. Thank goodness for the zoom function of the SA boxes.
My brother and his wife have a widescreen plasma (EDTV) and have basic cable, which means no HD. So 100% of the TV they watch is 4:3. DVDs are full screen. They never bothered to stretch out the image for about a year. One day I got tired of it and stretched it, and now the two "bars" on the sides are noticeably brighter than the rest of the image in the center.
When I saw that, I was galvanized. I will never watch standard TV unstretched.
btwyx
09-08-2006, 03:45 PM
I will never watch standard TV unstretched.I also don't want to watch it badly stretched. Luckily the scaler in my plasma display has a reasonably good stretch.
nathanziarek
09-08-2006, 05:18 PM
The S3 has built in Ethernet. So if you have two units connected directly to a 10/100 network...
I couldn't find any reference to the TiVo possibly having 10/100/1000 (gigabit?). If that was the case I'd feel better about MRV being a usable possibility...
As far as MRV goes, one of the big reasons I am interested in the S3 is that I have 2 HDTVs and I'd like to be able to watch recorded stuff on either of them without recording it twice. I really hope whatever legal/technical hurdles there are (if any, I know we're all just guessing here) can be overcome.
Speaking of which - if I've got two TiVos networked, I should be able to record three programs at the same time and TiVo A should know to schedule the 3rd on TiVo B...
Hmmm...what was the point of this topic again :-) ?
marshdom
09-08-2006, 05:29 PM
Dumb question (and sorry - haven't read through all ~25 pages) ...
If, hypothetically, my current D* HD-Tivo stopped working ... and was still covered under a BB extended warranty ... what do you think the chances are that BB would replace it with an S3 (as opposed to giving me another D* HD-Tivo)? Seems like I could make the argument that the D* is becoming somewhat "obsolete" - since it won't be able to record HD locals (coming soon to my area), but then they might try to push a D* branded HD-DVR (sorry - don't know all of the model numbers) on me? Seems like the S3 would be a fair replacement product, especially since I paid $899 for the HD-Tivo a few years ago. Thoughts?
Wonder what the most common failures (warranty claims) are on the old D* HD-Tivo ...
greg_burns
09-08-2006, 05:33 PM
Dumb question (and sorry - haven't read through all ~25 pages) ...
If, hypothetically, my current D* HD-Tivo stopped working ... and was still covered under a BB extended warranty ... what do you think the chances are that BB would replace it with an S3 (as opposed to giving me another D* HD-Tivo)? Seems like I could make the argument that the D* is becoming somewhat "obsolete" - since it won't be able to record HD locals (coming soon to my area), but then they might try to push a D* branded HD-DVR (sorry - don't know all of the model numbers) on me? Seems like the S3 would be a fair replacement product, especially since I paid $899 for the HD-Tivo a few years ago. Thoughts?
Wonder what the most common failures (warranty claims) are on the old D* HD-Tivo ...
S3 doesn't do satellite, so that would be stupid thing for BB to do. Therefore, your chances are excellent. :p :rolleyes:
MickeS
09-08-2006, 05:34 PM
I prefer the screen to be filled, especially on my plasma. I bought the pixels, I'm sure going to use them. I love it when I get a show in 4:3 that is also letterboxed. The pictures is bordered by black on all sides. Thank goodness for the zoom function of the SA boxes.
My TV only has two modes, 16:9 or 4:3 and no zoom... which has led me to download shows and transfer them to my Series 2 instead of recording them, since the downloads are native 16:9.
I really hope the S3 has a zoom mode, so the letterbox 4:3 recordings can be viewed fullscreen... but I doubt it does...
MichaelK
09-08-2006, 05:42 PM
I couldn't find any reference to the TiVo possibly having 10/100/1000 (gigabit?). If that was the case I'd feel better about MRV being a usable possibility...
As far as MRV goes, one of the big reasons I am interested in the S3 is that I have 2 HDTVs and I'd like to be able to watch recorded stuff on either of them without recording it twice. I really hope whatever legal/technical hurdles there are (if any, I know we're all just guessing here) can be overcome.
Speaking of which - if I've got two TiVos networked, I should be able to record three programs at the same time and TiVo A should know to schedule the 3rd on TiVo B...
Hmmm...what was the point of this topic again :-) ?
Dans math seems to show easily that 100 speed network will be fine.
Currently TiVo (the company) hasn't figured out how to get boxes to talk to each other to schedule. But for years now the hackers have a way that if there is a conflict bob a will poll box B and ask if it has a free tuner and box b would then schedule the program.
But series 3 are likly to be unhackable for some time (if ever...)
Maybe one day TiVo will add DVR access to HME so JavaHMO can build an HME app to do that, but for now it's a dream....
talmania
09-08-2006, 05:46 PM
Speaking of "hacking" the S3, is it possible that the internal drive will be upgradeable like every other Tivo thats come out? Will the process be the same? Yes I realize it's probably too early to tell but speculation is fun. :D
MickeS
09-08-2006, 06:08 PM
I hope the internal drive is upgradable. Even though it's easier with external expansion drives, they consume more power and require an extra outlet, not to mention can sometimes have quite noisy enclosures.
Fat midgets piss me off.
ROTFLMFAO!
Oh, and +1 for watching OAR (Original Aspect Ratio) or NOT At All!
Dan203
09-08-2006, 08:16 PM
[QUOTE=nathanziarek]I couldn't find any reference to the TiVo possibly having 10/100/1000 (gigabit?). If that was the case I'd feel better about MRV being a usable possibility.../QUOTE]
According to the info Megazone got from CES it will be 10/100 only, no gigabit. Although as I pointed out above that should be fast enough to transfer HD at about half realtime. (i.e. 1 hour program should only take about 30 minutes to transfer)
[QUOTE=nathanziarek]As far as MRV goes, one of the big reasons I am interested in the S3 is that I have 2 HDTVs and I'd like to be able to watch recorded stuff on either of them without recording it twice. I really hope whatever legal/technical hurdles there are (if any, I know we're all just guessing here) can be overcome.[/QUOTE}
Well it's illegal for them to put any restrictions on local broadcast stations, so at the very least you'll be able to MRV and TTG anything recorded from one of the local stations. The digital cable side of things allows for copy protection flags, but they have to be explicitly applied by the content owner so there is a good chance the basic digital stations will be clear as well. So really all you'll have to worry about is the premium stations like HBO and Sho.
Dan
kb7oeb
09-08-2006, 09:03 PM
HD files max out around 19Mb, its no problem to stream over a 100Mb lan. I often play HD files over my network without issue.
bkdtv
09-08-2006, 10:16 PM
Even though it's easier with external expansion drives, they consume more power and require an extra outlet, not to mention can sometimes have quite noisy enclosures.
The power on a modern hard drive is negligible, a small fraction of what it takes to run a light bulb. There's no reason an external drive should be any noiser than an internal one.
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=370891
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7821967&st=500Gb&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1142294266760
The S3 chasis is supposed to be "quiet", as opposed to the noisy S2 chasis without any damping material.
bkdtv
09-08-2006, 10:24 PM
The solution I linked above is silent from 6 feet. If you can't hear the external, the internal can't be any less noisy.
greg_burns
09-08-2006, 10:26 PM
The power on a modern hard drive is negligible, a small fraction of what it takes to run a light bulb. There's no reason an external drive should be any noiser than an internal one.
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=370891
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7821967&st=500Gb&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1142294266760
I've got a CoolGear SataVault (http://www.cooldrives.com/usb2-sata-mini-raid-system-sata-raid.html) sitting hear beside me (on loan from work), and it is rather noisy. Buyer beware.
A selling point of the Thecus (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822102002) is its quietness. I'm thinking about ordering one.
MickeS
09-08-2006, 10:51 PM
The power on a modern hard drive is negligible, a small fraction of what it takes to run a light bulb. There's no reason an external drive should be any noiser than an internal one.
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=370891
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7821967&st=500Gb&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1142294266760
The drive itself is not necessarily noisier, but depending on how the enclosure is cooled, it might be. And you still have to deal with the issue of more cables... and I've already used up every plug on my surge protector. :)
greg_burns
09-08-2006, 11:06 PM
The power on a modern hard drive is negligible, a small fraction of what it takes to run a light bulb.
[way OT]
I've noticed Windows Vista now powers down individual harddrives in my computer that are not being actively used. :cool: Must be a new power saving feature enabled by default. Rather disconcerting.
[/way OT]
classicX
09-08-2006, 11:33 PM
HD files max out around 19Mb, its no problem to stream over a 100Mb lan. I often play HD files over my network without issue.
I hope you mean 19 mpbs! :eek:
If they were 19MB I would have every show I ever watched on my computer!
talmania
09-08-2006, 11:35 PM
I've got a CoolGear sitting hear beside me (on loan from work), and it is rather noisy. Buyer beware.
A selling point of the Thecus is its quietness. I'm thinking about ordering one.
Wow..I'm sooooo glad I read your post! Thank you!
I was seriously considering that exact model from Cooldrives for my home PC. I've gone to great lengths to quiet everything in my system and sounds like I would have been terribly disappointed if I had moved forward with a purchase.
apsarkis
09-08-2006, 11:38 PM
Oh, and +1 for watching OAR (Original Aspect Ratio) or NOT At All!
I'm with you. What's the point of buying an expensive HDTV and then distorting the image by stretching it out? Any scaler setting other than "Dot-by-Dot" (what it's called on my Sharp Aquos) is lowering the picture quality.
I wonder about the 9/17 date - I was in my local BB today, got a rep to show me the screen and it showed a release date of 09/08, with no boxes on order for the entire state. :(
Omikron
09-09-2006, 05:27 AM
I wonder about the 9/17 date - I was in my local BB today, got a rep to show me the screen and it showed a release date of 09/08, with no boxes on order for the entire state. :(
The "Release Date" in the Best Buy inventory system means absolutely nothing. Inventory can come in within a matter of days before a release, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
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