Multiswitches and splitters, oh my!

[dmurphy]

Hi folks,

Not to rehash an old (OLD) topic, but I've got an .. interesting .. problem. I need a total of (12) connections active in my house (6 DTiVo's, thankyouverymuch :)

Now, rather than spend $$$$ for a 4x16 multiswitch, the DirecTV installer who wired my house used the splitter-and-multiswitch method. (If you're going to give me the "You-can't-use-splitters-with-DirecTV" response, then keep reading for a quick education. :)

Phase III dish ---> 4 splitters ---> "leg 1" to 4x8 Zinwell switch (4803, powered) and "leg 2" to 4x8 Eagle Aspen switch (unpowered)

Now, occasionally, one or two of the DTiVo's will go hunting for a signal on either sat 1 or sat 2. I suspect this has something to do with the fact that the installer used the wrong splitters -- they're passing DC power out of -both- legs. So if the stars and moon align right, I think both switches are passing DC power up to the Phase III and making all sorts of craziness occur.

Now, I just ordered 4 new splitters from eBay -- ones that pass DC on only one leg. The question is -- 1) Do you think that'll solve the problem; and 2) Which switch should I send power to? The powered Zinwell or the unpowered Aspen?

Thanks lots!

--DM

[jDot]

Actually the power goes from the switch to the LNB(s). Un-powered switches get thir power from the receiver(s) (called 'parasitic' power). I'd connect the DC pass leg to the powered switch.

Scott

[rminsk]

I suspect this has something to do with the fact that the installer used the wrong splitters -- they're passing DC power out of -both- legs. So if the stars and moon align right, I think both switches are passing DC power up to the Phase III and making all sorts of craziness occur.That is your problem exactly. You need high frequency splitters that pass power on one leg not both. The same port on both multiswitches need to be hooked up on each splitter. Passing DC on both legs would cause the "tone" to be out of phase and cancel out.

As stated by jDot I would hook up the powered switch to the side passing DC.

[dmurphy]

That is your problem exactly. You need high frequency splitters that pass power on one leg not both. The same port on both multiswitches need to be hooked up on each splitter. Passing DC on both legs would cause the "tone" to be out of phase and cancel out.

As stated by jDot I would hook up the powered switch to the side passing DC.

Guys, thanks lots. Appreciate the sanity check; I wanted to make sure my thinking was sound.

I've been somewhat concerned that maybe one of my runs was bad ... I was initially seeing the issue on the HR10-250, and when it occurred there, it also happened in my livingroom. But that makes the most sense; the HR10 is the only receiver I have that would call for a non-101 satellite, and so, when it's doing that, things go crazy.

Makes all the sense in the world... now I just need to wait for the new splitters to get here .... thanks!

--DM

p.s. In case anyone else is looking for the one-leg DC high-freq splitters, do an item # search for 140014153323 on eBay ... that's where I ordered them from.

[IJustLikeTivo]

I thought I understood this stuff but this really confused me. I thought the only way to split signal was using a straight multi or one that could "cascade". How does this splitter work? Do you take two and give the reverse legs to each switch? I ask since I have a 3 X 6 switch and I was considering adding another dTivo.

[Vin]

How does this splitter work? Do you take two and give the reverse legs to each switch? I ask since I have a 3 X 6 switch and I was considering adding another dTivo.
Cascading is one way to add more outputs and sometimes that's the most convenient way to do it but using high frequency splitters as shown in this diagram (http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/www-solidsignal-com_5x16-PhaseIII.pdf) allows you to actually DOUBLE the number of outputs, as opposed to sacrificing outputs from the first multiswitch to connect them to the second.

[phil-pham]

How many HD units do you have? If by luck you have only one, I would run two of the four original lines to the HR10 and split the remaining two like crazy.

I have one HR10 and two series 2. I have not had any trouble with running two unsplit lines to the HR10 (which uses all three LNB) and then use the other two for splitting SAT A since only HD needs SAT C, and many markets do not need SAT B. If your locals are on SAT B (and foreign language channels) you may need a special switch as already stated. I am using an old cheap switch since all I need is SAT A split for the series 2 and the HD needs A+C. As far as I know the SMS4/4 rp10 was not designed to be cascaded but I got it working for SAT A cascade.

Also, given the price of advanced switches it may be cheaper to by a second dish on ebay if you don't mind cluttering the SW portion of your house. I'm guessing that if you run six TiVo and one or more HD then money is no object but I'm on a budget and thought another reader might, too; I really admire that you have SIX TiVos all running. Wow! :)

[rminsk]

How many HD units do you have? If by luck you have only one, I would run two of the four original lines to the HR10 and split the remaining two like crazyThat will not work correctly. All four lines must be run from the dish to the multiswitch(es).

[dmurphy]

I'm guessing that if you run six TiVo and one or more HD then money is no object but I'm on a budget and thought another reader might, too; I really admire that you have SIX TiVos all running. Wow! :)

Nope, money is -definitely- an object :) I have a decent job, but definitely not in the set-for-life category :)

I've been collecting TiVo's over the years .... Of the 6, 3 of them are GXCEBOT's, 2 are HDVR2's, and 1 is an HR10-250. I usually wait until they're on sale (or free!) and pick one up. My first one was a GXCEBOT that I picked up for $75 at Circuit City -- it was a floor model I picked up while they were sold out. (2001? 2002? I don't remember. It was before they enabled the second tuner, though ...)

The most expensive of the bunch was (obviously) the HR10-250. I added that last September, for $200. Otherwise, the most I've paid for one is $99.

I've got a standard and HD receiver in the family room, one in the livingroom, one in each of the 2 bedrooms, and one in my office.

It's not as bad as it sounds :)

I also paid for the TiVo lifetime fee years ago, so the TiVo's don't cost me anything above what a normal receiver would!

[IJustLikeTivo]

Cascading is one way to add more outputs and sometimes that's the most convenient way to do it but using high frequency splitters as shown in this diagram (http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/www-solidsignal-com_5x16-PhaseIII.pdf) allows you to actually DOUBLE the number of outputs, as opposed to sacrificing outputs from the first multiswitch to connect them to the second.

How does that work? do the splitters act as a series of 1X2 switches? I don't know much about the technology involved so forgive me if that;s a silly question.

My basic question is how to get what I need. I think eventually, I'll need a 6 X 8 Multi to allow the 5 LNB dish and the cable to be passed to any of the 8 tuners. I might eventually not need the cable, but right now I do.

[hefe]

How does that work? do the splitters act as a series of 1X2 switches? I don't know much about the technology involved so forgive me if that;s a silly question.
Sort of...they are behaving like switches, but each one will only ever be selecting one thing. So functionally, they are just splitting the selected signal to 2 places.

The multiswitch inputs put the selection voltage and tone on the line. It seems that these splitters are specially designed to allow only one of their output ports to be a 2 way passthrough. It's diode controlled. So you hook up 2 equivalent multiswitch inputs to a splitter's outputs, and only one of them gets passed upline for selection. But both will get the same signal to split out to their ports, and feed the multiswitch inputs. In that way, all 4 pairs of multiswitch inputs will be supplied with the proper satellite/transponders combination.

Then, the receivers connecting to the multiswitch outputs simply select as usual from the multiswitch.

It is a confusing thing to try to describe with words.

[JimSpence]

How does that work? do the splitters act as a series of 1X2 switches? I don't know much about the technology involved so forgive me if that;s a silly question.

My basic question is how to get what I need. I think eventually, I'll need a 6 X 8 Multi to allow the 5 LNB dish and the cable to be passed to any of the 8 tuners. I might eventually not need the cable, but right now I do.
The 5LNB dish only has 4 outputs. The Zinwell WB68 6x8 multiswitch has the two extra inputs (flexports) to allow for the locals from the 72.5 and 95 satellites. And, the cable can't be added to that switch. You'll have to add another coax or diplex it on one of the lines after the switch. This diplex will also have to be done on a line that won't have MPEG4 channels.

Generally, multiswitches lock the LNBs to the polarity indicated on their inputs. Then when the receiver asks for a certain polarity it is the multiswitch that supplies it. With splitters, this is why you need to have one port passing DC ones and then each splitter must feed the same input on the two switches.

[IJustLikeTivo]

The 5LNB dish only has 4 outputs. The Zinwell WB68 6x8 multiswitch has the two extra inputs (flexports) to allow for the locals from the 72.5 and 95 satellites. And, the cable can't be added to that switch. You'll have to add another coax or diplex it on one of the lines after the switch. This diplex will also have to be done on a line that won't have MPEG4 channels.

Generally, multiswitches lock the LNBs to the polarity indicated on their inputs. Then when the receiver asks for a certain polarity it is the multiswitch that supplies it. With splitters, this is why you need to have one port passing DC ones and then each splitter must feed the same input on the two switches.

OK, that makes sense. Only one line in the house uses the cable so I guess I just add the diplexor on that line only.

[tech4105]

That is wired correctly, they have to be power pass both legs in order to send power to the LNB. If you don't have the 5 LNB(KA/KU) Dish, then you should have two POWERED multiswitches. Also, ensure that they are high frequency (minimum 2150 MHz). I have been installing for a little over two years and have rarely had to do this, but it is done somewhat correctly. There are alot of connections in your system that could go wrong, especially if they aren't up to code (compression, RG-6, etc.). Instead of trying to check them yourself, have a professional installer/service tech visit your home and change all connections that aren't up to code, check both switches and splitters for compatibility and also quality of install(dish alignment, mount security). If you have any questions, PM me. Thanks.

Mike

[rminsk]

That is wired correctly, they have to be power pass both legs in order to send power to the LNB.That is incorrect. You have to pass power only on one leg. With both legs the "tone" used to select which satellite can cancel out.If you don't have the 5 LNB(KA/KU) Dish, then you should have two POWERED multiswitches.The multiswitched do not have to be powered, unpowered multiswitches work fine. If you do have a powered one then I would recommend using it on the leg which passes power.

[tech4105]

All the splitter is there to do is to lock the LNB into a certain voltage (13/18 and so on). If you are using a non powered multiswitch then the only ports on the multiswitch that have power are the ones being selected by the receiver (13V or 18V). If you use a splitter with only one leg power passing, then you are unable to send power back to the LNB to select the 13V or 18V transponders. The only satellites that are used with a "tone" of 22KHz are the 110/119, but there is no way you can cancel that out because the splitters are locking the LNB output into that one tone and voltage. The multiswitches do not have to be powered, but you are better off with them due to voltage drop and signal drop through the ports. A powered switch does not have any signal loss. Thanks.

Mike G.

[JimSpence]

Actually, it is the multiswitch that is locking the LNBs through the powered leg of the splitter. I can see where splitters with both legs power passing will work, you are asking for trouble if you happen to not connect to the same input on the multiswitches. Also, if using non-powered and powered switches, then connect the passing leg to the powered one. This way you aren't relying on the receiver to supply the switching voltages/tones. IMHO, it is better to use power passing on one leg splitters.