I don't understand something with the Series 3 [Text View]

aztivo

08-05-2006, 12:01 AM

I've seen pictures of the Series 3. The only input it has is for coax. All the HD cable boxes I've seen do not have coax out, only composite cable or HDMI out. How will that work? How will we get the cable boxes to communicate with the Tivo Series 3?

I'm specifically refering to the picture I've attached.
This does NOT use a cable box. You get cable cards from your cable company for the S3

jsmeeker

08-05-2006, 12:04 AM

This does NOT use a cable box. You get cable cards from your cable company for the S3

Bingo.

And you only need the CableCard(s) if you need to "unscramble" digital cable TV channels, premium stuff like HBO, etc. If you want to record analog basic along with OTA stuff (via antenna), no card needed.

One input for cable TV. One for an antenna.

Norm_bone

08-08-2006, 10:04 PM

Will you be able to record OTA HD signals on the S3?

Bierboy

08-08-2006, 10:09 PM

Will you be able to record OTA HD signals on the S3?
Yes.

bkdtv

08-08-2006, 10:57 PM

As others have indicated, the Series3 isn't an add-on for your cable box. It is a replacement for your cable box. It seamlessly integrates two analog cable tuners, two digital cable tuners, and two OTA tuners into one box with full Tivo functionality.

The Series3 Tivo is able to decrypt the digital channels on cable by way of a CableCard . A CableCard looks a bit like a PCMCIA card for a notebook -- it plugs into the back of the Tivo and supplies all the information needed to unlock the programming that you pay for. Every cable company is required to provide these CableCards to customers that request them. Most cable companies will give you the first one free as part of digital cable (in leu of the cable box), and extra cards for $1.10 to $2.50 each.

bedelman

08-08-2006, 11:17 PM

Most cable companies will give you the first one free as part of digital cable (in leu of the cable box), and extra cards for $1.10 to $2.50 each.
When I checked with my local Comcast office, they do give you the first card for "free", but if you also have a cable box from them (and you continue to use it) -- that cable box stops being "free" and starts costing $4.95 a month. Additional CableCards are also $4.95 a month...

tewcewl

08-09-2006, 12:33 AM

bkdtv

08-09-2006, 12:43 AM

This, of course, is all on the assumption that CableCards take off. What if they don't? From what I'm hearing there's not a lot of adopters out there, and that alone may halt production on CableCards.
There are probably several hundred thousand CableCards in use, with more and more being installed every day, as more consumers transition to HD. The cable cos are required by law to provide them to any customer that requests one. Ultimately, every cable set-top box deployed by cable companies will use CableCards (2.0).

Every data point I've seen indicates that demand for CableCards is growing. I would be more worried about lack of supply then I would about CableCard going away.

btl-a4

08-09-2006, 04:39 AM

classicX

08-09-2006, 09:22 AM

You should probably call your local Comcast office and find out.

HiDefGator

08-09-2006, 09:47 AM

There are probably several hundred thousand CableCards in use, with more and more being installed every day, as more consumers transition to HD.

In one thread on this forum a couple of weeks back someone did the research and if I recall correctly there have been roughly 124,000 cable cards manufactured to date.

Not "hundreds of thousands".

cwoody222

08-09-2006, 10:17 AM

generalpatton71

08-09-2006, 10:37 AM

The Series3 can't handle multi-stream anyway. So if you want to do OnDemand you HAVE TO use a cableco box.

Again the Series 3 can do multi-stream, but on demand isn't "multi-stream". Multi-stream cable cards will allow you to have one card that allows a dual tumer device like the S3 to work with out having two cards.

SullyND

08-09-2006, 10:37 AM

The Series3 can't handle multi-stream anyway. So if you want to do OnDemand you HAVE TO use a cableco box.

You're confusing multi-stream and CC 2.0. The S3 can handle Multistream, not CC 2.0

bkdtv

08-09-2006, 10:56 AM

Anyone know if comcast has or will have Multistream Cablecards? I'm going to keep the Cabelco Box for OnDemand so unless they have Multistream Cards it's going to be $9.90 a month to have two cablecards plus the box.
I talked with my area Comcast manager a few weeks ago and they will only charge per outlet, so you wouldn't pay twice the cost. Their techs perform the install, so they will see you are just adding one TV. I would call and inquire as to the cost of CableCards in your area. The CableCard cost here is just under $3.00/mo for secondary outlets.

Comcast will have multistream cards in major service areas by 1Q 2007 which should eliminate much of the confusion.

jlb

08-09-2006, 11:18 AM

What all this also means, IIRC, that if you want two digital/scrambled tuners to record at once, you will need two cards......right?

Also, I think I remember someone saying that though they would only have one cable outlet coming off the wall, that their office would consider the second card a second outlet and charge for that.

I really can't wait to see the pricing options. Even though I do not have HD capability yet, I would expect it in the next year or so. So I would get the S3 even with my $11/month basic cable/Sony 27 inch analog TV. That's partly why I did not get in on the MOPS deal....though if I were waiting a year to do HD, I would have made out in the form of $6.95*12 saved. Oh well.

SullyND

08-09-2006, 11:50 AM

What all this also means, IIRC, that if you want two digital/scrambled tuners to record at once, you will need two cards......right?

If you have a multi-stream card you only need one for two tuners, if you do not have multi-stream then you need two cards to tune two digital/scrambled channels.

dt_dc

08-09-2006, 12:37 PM

In one thread on this forum a couple of weeks back someone did the research and if I recall correctly there have been roughly 124,000 cable cards manufactured to date.From their June 26, 2006 filing to the FCC, the NCTA approximates 170,000 deployed CableCards by the top 10 cable operators as of June 19, 2006. 150,000 of those are from the top 6:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518372521

This is up from the 126,000 CableCards deployed by the top 6, and 141,000 CableCards deployed by the top 10 that was reported on March 30 (estimates as of Feb 28th):
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518332453

And there have been many more manufactured. In February, the top 6 cable companies had an additional 60,000+ CableCards in inventory (on top of the 124,000 cards deployed). And in June the top 6 cable companies reported an additional 74,000 cards in inventory (on top of the 150,000 deployed).

So, as of June 19, 2006 there had been at least 244,000 CableCards manufactured (deployments by the top 10 cable operators and cards in inventory at the top 6).

If you're talking about this post:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4107717&&#post4107717
That was referring to the numbers of cards deployed as of February.

Dan203

08-09-2006, 01:39 PM

I talked with my area Comcast manager a few weeks ago and they will only charge per outlet, so you wouldn't pay twice the cost.

If getting a multi-stream card can save you Comcast people from having to pay the extra outlet fee, then I think you guys should really push for them when you order your CableCARD install. Both SA and Motorola have approved multi-stream cards available, so your cable company should have access to them regardless of the brand of their equipment.

Dan

jfh3

08-09-2006, 10:18 PM

If getting a multi-stream card can save you Comcast people from having to pay the extra outlet fee, then I think you guys should really push for them when you order your CableCARD install. Both SA and Motorola have approved multi-stream cards available, so your cable company should have access to them regardless of the brand of their equipment.

I would love to get a multi-stream card, but I can hardly wait to see how hard it will be to find someone that actually knows what one is. I'm sure most people that order a "multi-stream" cablecard will actually get a single-stream card, at least well into next year.

btl-a4

08-09-2006, 11:37 PM

You should probably call your local Comcast office and find out.

Yeah, right. I trust the info from this forum more than the people I talk to at Comcast. You eventually get the right answer, but usually after talking to 3 or 4 people. I figured maybe someone else has gone to the trouble. But thanks for your obvious suggestion.

btl-a4

08-09-2006, 11:44 PM

The Series3 can't handle multi-stream anyway. So if you want to do OnDemand you HAVE TO use a cableco box.
I know I need the box that's why I'm interested in multistream so i don't have to pay for 2 cards plus the box. Just 1 card plus the box.

darat

08-10-2006, 12:54 PM

I feel like cable cards aren't going to last long.

Remember when DTV had H-Cards and people were able to hack them? Isn't that the same deal with these things pretty much?

But back to the s3 im assuming that if you have a digital cable box that has HD they utilize these cards already. If i'm wrong (which i could be) then if you have a HD box to get signals along with extra channels, you may be SOL with the s3.

classicsat

08-10-2006, 01:27 PM

The Series3 can't handle multi-stream anyway. So if you want to do OnDemand you HAVE TO use a cableco box.
Multistream has nothing to do with OnDemand.
The Series 3 WILL handle multistream cards.

bidger

08-10-2006, 03:05 PM

I feel like cable cards aren't going to last long.

Remember when DTV had H-Cards and people were able to hack them? Isn't that the same deal with these things pretty much?
Not really. You can power down a satellite receiver and remove the access card and replace it. As I understand it, if the Cable Card is removed from it's slot, it renders it inoperable.

Your point about the Cable Card standard not lasting long has merit though.

Dan203

08-10-2006, 03:13 PM

Not really. You can power down a satellite receiver and remove the access card and replace it. As I understand it, if the Cable Card is removed from it's slot, it renders it inoperable.

Actually that's not quite right. You can remove a CableCARD and plug it back into the same device and it will work just fine. However if you attempt to stick that CableCARD into another device then it will no longer work in any device, not even the original authorized device, until the cable company re-hits it. Although this "feature" has to be turned on at the head end to function, so it's possible that this may not apply in all markets.

Dan

headless chicken

08-19-2006, 02:03 PM

So, let me get this straight. The CableCard plugs directly into the TiVo? Hmm...now I don't neccessarily have to get that Panasonic TH-42PX600U plasma with the CableCard slot directly in the TV, I can go for the baseline model.

Also, these CableCards are equipped to display HDTV, correct?

Gregor

08-19-2006, 02:21 PM

JohnBrowning

08-19-2006, 02:36 PM

Larry in TN

08-19-2006, 07:24 PM

now I don't neccessarily have to get that Panasonic TH-42PX600U plasma with the CableCard slot directly in the TV, I can go for the baseline model.

Having cableCARD TV will give you the ability to watch a third live program while the Series 3 TiVo is recording two others.

Gene S

08-19-2006, 09:59 PM

Having cableCARD TV will give you the ability to watch a third live program while the Series 3 TiVo is recording two others.

Wait.. No.. Not with 1 cablecard.
S3 can only deal with 2 tuners at a time.
If you have a multistream cable card in the Tivo, that will get you two different channels. If you want a 3rd channel, you would need a different cable card device and switch your tv to that input.

bkdtv

08-19-2006, 10:02 PM

Wait.. No.. Not with 1 cablecard.
S3 can only deal with 2 tuners at a time.
He meant using his TV's built-tuner.

Larry in TN

08-19-2006, 10:49 PM

If you want a 3rd channel, you would need a different cable card device and switch your tv to that input.

Yeah, the TV with a CableCARD *IS* a different CableCARD device.

MScottC

08-20-2006, 04:52 PM

Given that an ATSC Tuner/Series 3 Tivo can receive many of the DTV signals without a CableCard, and that the CableCard's only real function is to "unlock" the encrypted channels, whats stopping me from watching or recording a "basic" or local broadcast channel on one of the TiVo Tuners, while using the CableCard for the Premiums. Given that most premium channels repeat the hell out of everything, how many times are you going to get stuck wanting to both record or watch more than one premium channel at a time?

bkdtv

08-20-2006, 05:09 PM

MScott,

Good point. One of the functions of the CableCard is to map the QAM channels (ex: 117-6) to the correct channel number, but one CableCard should be sufficient for Tivo to do that.

Larry in TN

08-20-2006, 10:02 PM

whats stopping me from watching or recording a "basic" or local broadcast channel on one of the TiVo Tuners, while using the CableCard for the Premiums.

If the Series 3 does not support dual asymmetric tuners then the Series 3 will stop you. If it does support it then it will work. The problem is that with asymmetric tuners the software must keep track of which channels are available to each tuner and have the ability to juggle the to-do list between tuners to match the needs with the requirements. Without such support you might be stuck with only single-tuner operation when only a single single-stream CableCARD is installed.

So far, there hasn't been any information which I've seen to indicated that it will support dual asymmetric tuners. I would certainly like to hear any information which would nail this issue down, one way or the other.

Of course, once the multi-stream cards come out this won't be an issue.

tothebeat

08-20-2006, 10:49 PM

jfh3

08-20-2006, 11:27 PM

For someone who doesn't know a much about what you all are talking about, the S3 is starting to sound complicated.

I've been holding out on getting a second unit until the S3 came out, but now that I know I have to rely on my cable company to figure it out for me I'm starting to get a little nervous about getting one.

So basically I can get basic analog channels until my cable company comes out and installs this cable card (which they shouldn't have a problem doing, right?). My cable box goes away entirely and the TiVo handles all the channel changing on its own. Is this correct?

Sounds good, but I haven't always had the best service from my cable company so I'm still uneasy about it. I guess I should be calling them before buying just to be sure everything is set up on their end.

Someone help ease my concerns would you???

No, you can get basic analog and unscrambled digital + any OTA channels without a cablecard or a cablebox. If you have scrambled channels (e.g. most digital), get a cablecard.

There's no reason the cable company HAS to install the card - you can EASILY do it yourself and Tivo will have easy self-install instructions in the box.

Don't worry about "everything being set up on their end" - is it. But many CSRs won't probably know that.

bkdtv

08-20-2006, 11:51 PM

For someone who doesn't know a much about what you all are talking about, the S3 is starting to sound complicated.
Some of the geeks are talking about the technical aspects of the boxes operation, you can ignore it. :)

So basically I can get basic analog channels until my cable company comes out and installs this cable card (which they shouldn't have a problem doing, right?). My cable box goes away entirely and the TiVo handles all the channel changing on its own. Is this correct?
That's correct. The CableCard decrypts the encrypted channels. The Series3 can tune all the other channels without need for a CableCard.

Most cable companies require that they send a rep out to install a card, so that's what you should expect. However, once they actually arive at your house, sticking the CableCard into the back of the Series3 shouldn't take more than 30 seconds.

classicX

08-21-2006, 09:26 AM

If the Series 3 does not support dual asymmetric tuners then the Series 3 will stop you. If it does support it then it will work. The problem is that with asymmetric tuners the software must keep track of which channels are available to each tuner and have the ability to juggle the to-do list between tuners to match the needs with the requirements. Without such support you might be stuck with only single-tuner operation when only a single single-stream CableCARD is installed.

So far, there hasn't been any information which I've seen to indicated that it will support dual asymmetric tuners. I would certainly like to hear any information which would nail this issue down, one way or the other.

Of course, once the multi-stream cards come out this won't be an issue.

I guess you didn't see the interview with Pony at CES. He said the S3 has "6" tuners , and that you could "mix and match", so you could, for instance have one set for Cable and the other for ATSC.

Asym. Which means if you do that, it will have to have two guides, and the Tivo software would need logic never before needed in a Tivo - which tuner do I use to record show x?

Simple - if show X is only available on the digital cable tuner, then use that to record show X. If Show X is on BOTH tuners, record it on the tuner with less channels, because he might want to watch Live TV on a digital channel or record a show only available on the other tuner.

Perhaps this is what they are trying to test so thoroughly.

bap

08-21-2006, 09:32 AM

There's no reason the cable company HAS to install the card - you can EASILY do it yourself and Tivo will have easy self-install instructions in the box.
Except that virtually all reports I've seen indicate that the cable companies are requiring their techs to perform the install. That's because it involves a bit more than just physically plugging the card into the device. Once the CC is installed then the combination of CC and tv/tivo/stb needs to be authorized in the cable companies equipment. Having a tech come out to make sure this is done right makes sense (and also generates a bit more revenue for them). I have family members who get nervous just connecting a printer to a computer, even with a "quick install guide" in front of them. If they were to try to install a CC themselves I'm sure they'd end up calling the cable company for support, getting all flustered, and more than likely end up having a tech come out anyway.

lessd

08-21-2006, 10:35 AM

Except that virtually all reports I've seen indicate that the cable companies are requiring their techs to perform the install. That's because it involves a bit more than just physically plugging the card into the device. Once the CC is installed then the combination of CC and tv/tivo/stb needs to be authorized in the cable companies equipment. Having a tech come out to make sure this is done right makes sense (and also generates a bit more revenue for them). I have family members who get nervous just connecting a printer to a computer, even with a "quick install guide" in front of them. If they were to try to install a CC themselves I'm sure they'd end up calling the cable company for support, getting all flustered, and more than likely end up having a tech come out anyway.

I had one installed and the above is correct, and the tel number the Cable Tech uses is not a number for the public and it takes time for the mating to take place. After that you can remove the CC and put it back in no problem (into the unit it was last set up for, can't change TVs)

Croptop

08-21-2006, 01:14 PM

I had one installed and the above is correct, and the tel number the Cable Tech uses is not a number for the public and it takes time for the mating to take place.

Pairing a CableCARD to a host isn't complicated and shouldn't require a tech visit. In fact, with the newer two-way CableCARDS, the end user doesn't even have to read off the host, card and data IDs to the CSR. The headend can simply poll the card for the information and send out the validation message in a matter of seconds.

As for distinguishing the difference between and single stream CableCARD and a multistream CableCARD, the good news is that (at least in Comcast's case) they are labelled differently (the multistream cards are labelled "M-CableCARD").

terryfoster

08-21-2006, 01:29 PM

Pairing a CableCARD to a host isn't complicated and shouldn't require a tech visit. In fact, with the newer two-way CableCARDS, the end user doesn't even have to read off the host, card and data IDs to the CSR. The headend can simply poll the card for the information and send out the validation message in a matter of seconds.

This is hypothetically correct, but two way CableCards (aka CableCard 2.0) have not yet been released let alone CC 2.0 devices.

I also agree that CC installations don't require a tech visit, but (as a really lame excuse) to save headaches most/all cable cos appear to be sending techs out to make the installation "smooth" :rolleyes:.

cwoody222

08-21-2006, 03:12 PM

I guess you didn't see the interview with Pony at CES. He said the S3 has "6" tuners , and that you could "mix and match", so you could, for instance have one set for Cable and the other for ATSC.

Asym. Which means if you do that, it will have to have two guides, and the Tivo software would need logic never before needed in a Tivo - which tuner do I use to record show x?

Simple - if show X is only available on the digital cable tuner, then use that to record show X. If Show X is on BOTH tuners, record it on the tuner with less channels, because he might want to watch Live TV on a digital channel or record a show only available on the other tuner.

Perhaps this is what they are trying to test so thoroughly.

The DirecTiVo and the Dual-Tuner TiVo already have these functionalities built-in.

Your example is also flawed. If a show is available on both digital and analog it can still be recorded on digital and the viewer can still watch another show on digital... remember, it has TWO digital tuners.

It can record 2 HD-OTA, 2 digital cable or 2 analog cable shows at any given time. Since it can only ever access 2 channels at the same time, any combo is always possible. There's no danger of it recording a show on the "wrong" tuner in a way that will interfere with something else the user wants to go.

While the S3 is, no doubt, complicated... this particular hurdle is one TiVo have crossed already.

Also note: if you have digital cable, the cable lineup you select will not duplicate channels on digital and analog cable. So TiVo will only "see" the channel in one location.

However, if you get some channels via digital cable that you also get via HD OTA a simple solution would be to disable the OTA version on the "Channels You Recieve" menu.

Bierboy

08-21-2006, 03:40 PM

...if you get some channels via digital cable that you also get via HD OTA a simple solution would be to disable the OTA version on the "Channels You Recieve" menu.Not exactly the same thing, but this is what I did with the Sony DHG unit (and I assume, will do with the S3). But it had to do with the analog cable and HD version of the same network station (I only receive HD OTA). There's no reason to have the analog cable version programmed in if you can get the HD OTA version. That's what will REALLY be nice with the S3 -- a totally integrated solution.

Larry in TN

08-21-2006, 03:53 PM

I guess you didn't see the interview with Pony at CES.

Yes, I did see the interview but Pony's comments were not conclusive on the issue.

jfh3

08-21-2006, 05:33 PM

Except that virtually all reports I've seen indicate that the cable companies are requiring their techs to perform the install.

Still unnecessary in most cases. If people want the "comfort" of having an tech that will likely know far less about CableCards and Tivo, fine.

But as long as Comcast keeps reporting to the FCC that they allow self-installs, I'm going to do a self-install. :)

btwyx

08-21-2006, 05:58 PM

But as long as Comcast keeps reporting to the FCC that they allow self-installs, I'm going to do a self-install. :)Where do they say that? They're telling me a technician install is necessary.

mchief

08-21-2006, 06:06 PM

I just had a cable card installed on my Hitachi 42HDS69 in addition to the SA8300HD box. I can now record two HD programs as the same time AND watch HD programming via the cable card. Comcast had a hard time figuring this out. Finally got someone with an IQ over 12. Cost $9.95 for the box and $ .95 for the card as an additional outlet.

mchief

08-21-2006, 06:07 PM

Make that $4.95 for the card

Dan203

08-21-2006, 06:20 PM

I guess you didn't see the interview with Pony at CES. He said the S3 has "6" tuners , and that you could "mix and match", so you could, for instance have one set for Cable and the other for ATSC.

Asym. Which means if you do that, it will have to have two guides, and the Tivo software would need logic never before needed in a Tivo - which tuner do I use to record show x?

Actually having 6 tuners does not mean that the software works in asymetrical mode. Right now we have two points of reference. The S2DT, which is capable of working asymetrically, and the HD DirecTiVo which is not. If it works like the S2 DT then you should be able to use a single CableCARD and record two of any channel except encrypted channels. However if it works like the HD DirecTiVo then if you only have one CableCARD installed then the entire system will revert to a single tuner mode where you can only record a single channel regardless of whether it's cable or OTA, encrypted or unencrypted.

It seems logical that they would go with the S2DT type setup, since they obviously have the logic to handle it now. However who knows where the software branched for the S3 development, or if CableCARD systems can even work that way?

I guess we'll see when they're released and one of us gives it a try.

Dan

dt_dc

08-22-2006, 12:56 AM

Your example is also flawed. If a show is available on both digital and analog it can still be recorded on digital and the viewer can still watch another show on digital... remember, it has TWO digital tuners.

It can record 2 HD-OTA, 2 digital cable or 2 analog cable shows at any given time. Since it can only ever access 2 channels at the same time, any combo is always possible. There's no danger of it recording a show on the "wrong" tuner in a way that will interfere with something else the user wants to go.The discussion was about what would happen if the S3 had one single-stream CableCard installed (instead of a multi-stream card or two single-stream cards).

In such a case, only one encrypted digital channel could be recorded (or watched live) at a time.

How exactly Tivo will handle such an install ... as Dan said, we'll see when it's released.

btwyx

08-22-2006, 01:59 AM

How exactly Tivo will handle such an install ... as Dan said, we'll see when it's released.I thought Pony had explictly said it would handle it just like an S2DT does, but I can't find the post. The DT can cope with assymetric tuners, I expect the S3 to.

bicker

08-22-2006, 06:47 AM

Yeah, right. I trust the info from this forum more than the people I talk to at Comcast. You eventually get the right answer, but usually after talking to 3 or 4 people. The same applies with online forums. You're likely to get a number of conflicting pieces of information. I've found that the more locale-specific a piece of information is, the more reliable information is from the source, as opposed to from the broader Internet community.