Suggestion for the Meets section [Text View]

dswallow

07-24-2006, 07:54 AM

I don't see any point to doing so and would like to see Happy Hour opened back up to non-members. If people aren't comfortable posting pictures including their kids (and I really can't fathom why they'd care), simply don't post them.

But if it continues, I'd rather see Happy Hour exposed to search engines simply because outside search engines work better than the one here. It could be done in a way that still would require registration for a user to view the forum but search engine spiders would be allowed in so thepages could be indexed and I believe there is a way to force the page not to be cached, at least by Google, so that to view it one must come to the site (and thus be registered).

eddyj

07-24-2006, 09:15 AM

I don't see any point to doing so and would like to see Happy Hour opened back up to non-members. If people aren't comfortable posting pictures including their kids (and I really can't fathom why they'd care), simply don't post them.
There is a big difference between posting pictures of children/family in a place that is somewhat private and having it where anyone with Google can find them and see them.

I also like this idea.

dswallow

07-24-2006, 09:55 AM

There is a big difference between posting pictures of children/family in a place that is somewhat private and having it where anyone with Google can find them and see them.

I also like this idea.
The level of paranoia around here often exceeds my expectations.

eddyj

07-24-2006, 09:59 AM

The level of paranoia around here often exceeds my expectations.
Just because you are paranoid does not mean that you are not right. :p

Gunnyman

07-24-2006, 10:14 AM

The level of paranoia around here often exceeds my expectations.
is your login here password protected?
how about on your router?
do you run antivirus/anti-malware software?
care to post your SS number? Your address?
Why? are you paranoid?

Doug it's not a life changing request, this little thing we're asking for. In fact you seem to be the only one to dislike the idea.

dswallow

07-24-2006, 10:32 AM

is your login here password protected?
how about on your router?
do you run antivirus/anti-malware software?
care to post your SS number? Your address?
Why? are you paranoid?

Doug it's not a life changing request, this little thing we're asking for. In fact you seem to be the only one to dislike the idea.
None of your questions is relevant to this discussion unless you're planning to post that sort of info about yourself here in the forums.

I don't see why the worry is based around posting pictures of your children. They're just pictures.

Nothing about TCF is life-changing; some people are asking for a change here and I'm providing my opinion on the subject. I see it as just more paranoia from a handful of people. It's to the point that such people should probably not have an avatar that's a picture of themselves, should not post their home city, and should basically not ever write anything other people could read online. What's the point then?

Already meet info that includes addresses and phone numbers of members is sent privately amongst those indicating they'll attend.

cheerdude

07-24-2006, 10:45 AM

Doug,

I understand what you mean... however, look at it this way.

With every other part of TCF, we (both David and TiVo) want to have people who have TiVo questions Google and find this site. *

Since there is really isn't any need for an "outsider" (sorry for using that word) to need to find something within Happy Hour (there are plenty of open sites that have similar posts), that section is blocked from the search spiders. (BTW David, is the UK Happy Hour also walled off?)

Same holds true with the Meets section (probably even more so). For 99% of us, the Meets are for the people that post in Happy Hour (and their significant others, if they so desire). If it was just about meet announcements, that would be one thing... but since we also post some details about ourselves, the meets, and the pictures; this is where making it private would be helpful.

Yes, it does sound a little paranoid. However, I rather be a bit paranoid now and not be reactionary later.

Jeff

PS - Obviously, keeping HH and Meets walled off doesn't stop someone from registering to the forum and lurking on their own.

* (For the record, I've had no problems with the Search function on vBulletin forums... definitely have seen and used worse).

hefe

07-24-2006, 10:51 AM

I think it just makes sense to treat Meets in the same way as HH. Both open, or both closed.

Leon WIlkinson

07-24-2006, 01:07 PM

murgatroyd

07-24-2006, 02:15 PM

If the meets threads hadn't been split off from Happy Hour in the first place, this would be a non-issue. They would still be in Happy Hour and thus under protection.

I don't see why Gunnyman's request should be considered odd in any way.

Jan

SueAnn

07-24-2006, 03:23 PM

My SS is 192-85-4673 :p

That's MY SSN !!!!!!!!!!!

pianoman

07-24-2006, 07:25 PM

I would like to add my support for making the meets section visible to registered members only.

David Bott

07-25-2006, 08:04 AM

Hi All...

Thanks for all the posts. I am see your point but at the same time can not really see an issue being made.

Our side...We would want people to see the meets that are setup have for they also may care to join the site to get involved with the functions. Thus is much different from then most of the threads that are posted in the HH area.

One person PM'ed me about it being a security issue with homes being robbed. Unless you have given your personal information out about where you live, this is not a likely thing to happen. You have been using the site and doing this like this for years, thus nothing new to change this. Keep your information private as is recommended.

As far as images of members children being the posted....I am sorry, but the members posting such images would know they where posting the images on a site that could be accessed and indexed without issue. If that concerned, they would not be posted and can just be removed with an edit from this site. But please note that if already indexed by a search engine, they can be cached by the search engine. Thus again, if concerned, don't post them. Not to menton, people post them on their own site that is also indexed and link to them from here... Example... http://www.thewallens.net/gallery/main.php

Even on AVS Forum we have a meets area and images are posted from gatherings. Not once ever been an issue or a members only thing.

I am still listening to your concerns/comments on this. Please continue to post them here if needed. Still considering this. Also considering a paid area of the site.

Side Note...Attacking a person for their opinion on it does not help. On that note...please feel free to present me with ANY information you have that ties Doug directly into this site or that Dong has over me as some sort of blackmail. If you have such information, and you will not for their is none, send it on. Otherwise STOP with the conspiracy theories and the spreading of false information. As you can see I am quite tired of it and I just suspended one member because of it.

Thank you all.

jennifer

07-25-2006, 08:12 AM

I think it just makes sense to treat Meets in the same way as HH. Both open, or both closed.

My thoughts exactly :)

IMO, the meets are an extention of the associations made in Happy Hour. The folks who walk in off of the internet street looking for technical information about TIVO could not care less (IMVHO) about the meets arranged between the folks who hang around here everyday, creating friendships and relationships. In fact, if I were a new TIVO user and stumbled into this site, the fact that all of you nerds are congregating around the country might just creep me out :D Now that I'm one of you...well.... not so creepy ;)

jennifer

07-25-2006, 08:14 AM

DB - thanks for still keeping this thread open for further discussion.

If you made this a paid site, I would become a member. But if you will look at some of the job loss threads, you will see that a lot of folks are hurting financially right now. I would hate to alienate those valuable members during times when they need the support and connections that this board brings to their lives.

dswallow

07-25-2006, 08:20 AM

My thoughts exactly :)

IMO, the meets are an extention of the associations made in Happy Hour. The folks who walk in off of the internet street looking for technical information about TIVO could not care less (IMVHO) about the meets arranged between the folks who hang around here everyday, creating friendships and relationships. In fact, if I were a new TIVO user and stumbled into this site, the fact that all of you nerds are congregating around the country might just creep me out :D Now that I'm one of you...well.... not so creepy ;)
I believe there are/have been gatherings where the purpose is to bring ones TiVo(s) and upgrade them -- thus having the help of people who've done it before as well as making a social setting of it.

Gunnyman

07-25-2006, 08:26 AM

david
I have one question
what is it about the "type of thread" in the HH section that caused you to block IT from unregistered users?
I'm just trying to understand. I'll echo what others have already said. Keeping the Tivo oriented sections of this Forum open for searches etc and keeping the non Tivo stuff exclusive for registered users just seems to make sense to me.

eddyj

07-25-2006, 08:34 AM

As I understand it, HH was a spam magnet, and the mods were spending a lot of time cleaning it out. The other areas do not seem to get the same volume of spam. Or I could be totally misremembering. :)

JustAllie

07-25-2006, 08:37 AM

...also popping in here to say I think it's a good idea to move the Meets section to the "registered-users-only" category. While people don't share specific details like addresses and phone numbers in the Meets threads, they do share more general info like the neighborhood they live in, for example.

Anyone who posts on TCF even once will need to register and therefore will be able to see the forum, so people who are only interested in the Meets section because they want to participate in an "upgrade party" can certainly do so.

David Bott

07-25-2006, 09:00 AM

I will not be getting into the HH as a registered-members-only area talk again. Went through that a long time ago and not going to start it up again. Move on.

Gunnyman it sounds like you want all non-tivo areas closed to public view for you keep harping on the HH area. You know, seeing the site was made for interest in TiVo, I could have 1) Made it that way all together with no off topic areas or 2) Made the other areas that are non-TiVo all pay to use areas with a yearly membership fee for access.

As I had mentioned, I feel the meets area is a plus to the site as being seen openly. Remember, a meet is suppose to be about getting together for like reason...in the case of this site, it should be TiVo. But it is beyond that at this point.

Still listening. But please give me something to work with. :)

Gunnyman

07-25-2006, 09:07 AM

No not at all david. I was just curious. Hardly harping.
Oh and I see having to register as a user to view the non tivo sections as an enticement TO register.

Skittles

07-25-2006, 09:23 AM

I think it might be a good idea to keep the Meets forum in the forum list, but just require that people register/login before viewing the Meets forum. I mean, if people come here to look for meets, all we're doing is asking them to sign up for TCF before they view it as a matter of trust. It's good for us, because it deters the spammers (we've been seeing them a little more frequently in the Meets forum) and it helps TCF, too, because we get a new member in the process.

It encourages the people to stay around, too... by making them sign up, they've become invested in TCF and are more likely to come back. We have a lot of lurkers in TCF, and in the Meets Forum too. By asking them to sign up, we increase the number of unique members we have here.

It also makes the existing members a little more comfortable by knowing that Google isn't indexing their pictures. It's not that the pictures aren't appropriate... just that those pictures becomes broadcasted to the whole world at that point.

And by keeping the meets forum in the forum list, but requiring registration to view it, it just means one small step for people to view it... registering for the site is quick and easy. We keep the forum in the forum list so it's still visible when people come to the site, and they can read the description for the Meets forum, so there's still good exposure for it.

David Bott

07-25-2006, 09:42 AM

Nicely Said Skittles.

I still do not see the issue with the indexing seeing that the images are already used usually on other personal sites though as mentioned.

Skittles

07-25-2006, 10:04 AM

Nicely Said Skittles.

I still do not see the issue with the indexing seeing that the images are already used usually on other personal sites though as mentioned.Well, with people's personal sites, they can enable measures to stop the googlebot and other search engines from indexing their site.

The small change would make a lot of people happy, and it wouldn't hurt the site too much. The lurkers would still be able to log in and view the meets forum, the existing members feel a little better about the security of the site... and making the change shouldn't hurt anyone. In fact, having been to quite a few meets myself, I can safely say that we've never had someone show up that hadn't been a registered member of TCF for a few months.

And realistically, it's a change that helps the membership as a whole... because people just get encouraged to sign up for TCF, and we really like that. More people signing up for TCF means we have a bigger community, it means better membership numbers for the board. It helps people establish a presence about who they are, and encourages them to come out and join and be a part of our big family, rather than letting them sit in the wings.

David Bott

07-25-2006, 10:57 AM

Most people have no idea how to do what you are referring to. My point was that if it was a security thing for the childrens photos, then they should not be posted here or anywhere. It become mute. Or any photo posted for that matter.

It is only a handful of people in the scheme of things actually that have mentioned any issue at all. It was brought up because of the childrens images I do belive. It has been like this for quite some time and has not been an issue.

This really does no do anything for the membership itself in regards to making the site a better place. But does restrict people who may have an interest in attending a meet if they just happened upon the site and one is in their area. Thus they could resister to RSVP if needed. As mentioned, a TiVo meet is what it really is for. But is being used for something else.

Thanks

dswallow

07-25-2006, 11:16 AM

And realistically, it's a change that helps the membership as a whole... because people just get encouraged to sign up for TCF, and we really like that. More people signing up for TCF means we have a bigger community, it means better membership numbers for the board. It helps people establish a presence about who they are, and encourages them to come out and join and be a part of our big family, rather than letting them sit in the wings.
That reasoning could be used for every forum; "require registration to view it and people will register, et. al."

The reality is that when it's time, a lurker will register and say something; till then they lurk. Frankly there's already a significant number of registered users who don't visit often and have never posted. Requiring registration doesn't make someone participate.

JustAllie

07-25-2006, 11:57 AM

As mentioned, a TiVo meet is what it really is for. But is being used for something else.
Is it such a bad thing that people are using the Community Meets forum to arrange community meets and to enhance their friendships and ties to this community? If it keeps people coming back here and generating clicks on ad links, that's good for the bottom line too, right?

I immediately think of Weaknees, 9thTee, and PTVUpgrade when think about fixing or upgrading my TiVo, and I'm sure all those blinking ads I see every day have helped engrain this in my subconscious. :D

Hmm... My Humax needs a new hard drive.... wonder where I should go to buy that..... <click> :up:

hefe

07-25-2006, 12:10 PM

As mentioned, a TiVo meet is what it really is for. But is being used for something else.

I'm not sure that's a relevant point. Whether the meet is strictly TiVo related or not, it's strangers who met online getting together in person. Whatever issues exist, they are there regardless of the purpose of the meet. It is still a social occasion that resulted from participation in this forum. You don't need to meet other members to discuss TiVo and get information and answer questions. Meets are social events no matter how you look at them.

Personally, I'm not even saying that I think Meets has to be members only, but I just think that the nature of what happens dictates that Meets and HH should be treated the same way, that's all.

Just my additional 2 cents. ;)

dswallow

07-25-2006, 12:16 PM

I'm curious -- was there a basis for this request? I mean, did some discussion occur elsewhere in the forum about some incident or concern that then led Gunnyman to post the request over here? It just seems this came out of the blue to me, so maybe there's something I'm not considering when forming my opinion about the idea.

Gunnyman

07-25-2006, 12:22 PM

Actually I thought the section had been accessible only to registered users all along.
We were discussing this at the Atlanta meet and all of us there were in agreement that it sounded like a good idea and we were all surprised it wasn't set up this way already.
There wasn't any omigosh I can't BELIEVE this was going on or anything like that. It all started as a simple idea which turned into a suggestion which then turned into this wonderful thread where I have apparently become a harping maniac. ;)

Skittles

07-25-2006, 12:30 PM

I'm not sure that's a relevant point. Whether the meet is strictly TiVo related or not, it's strangers who met online getting together in person. Whatever issues exist, they are there regardless of the purpose of the meet. It is still a social occasion that resulted from participation in this forum. You don't need to meet other members to discuss TiVo and get information and answer questions. Meets are social events no matter how you look at them.

Personally, I'm not even saying that I think Meets has to be members only, but I just think that the nature of what happens dictates that Meets and HH should be treated the same way, that's all.

Just my additional 2 cents. ;)I have to agree with hefe. Whether or not people are meeting to discuss TiVo isn't really the important thing. People are meeting because of this forum. They talk about the things that happen on this forum.... the posts, threads they enjoy, other members they like... even though TiVo can often become a peripheral matter, they're still getting together becaues of this forum. In fact, there are so many people who come back and become regular visitors to the site because of those meets.

While I will understand and respect whatever decision you make regarding the public/private status of the meets forum, David, I hope you won't hold the meets in a negative light. They really do bring a lot to this place.

David Bott

07-25-2006, 01:44 PM

Oh No...the meets section is great! Don't get me wrong here. I was trying to say that the real reason for making them is to get people together with a like interest. In this case it would be TiVo. On AVS, it is home theater and gear.

It has become other things, sure. Some good, some bad (IMHO), but not a negative on the site. Thus is why I like to have it readable. I was just looking for more arguments other than security which was the main reason the the request to be made and really does not hold water to me.

Thanks

Boot

07-25-2006, 02:14 PM

Sorry to jump into this discussion late, but I just wanted to make an observation. It feels like TCF has two very well-intentioned, but conflicting, goals. If that could be resolved, it might make people feel more comfortable about the Meets forum.

The first goal is to use the Meets forum as a way to attract members, make them see TCF as a true community, and want to get involved. I think that's a great idea. I think most people would agree.

The second goal is to keep all meet discussions out of Happy Hour, so as not to alienate people who can't go to meets, or clutter up HH with things that don't apply to everyone. I understand that too, but as a result, post-discussions and pictures and all kinds of threads not related to the announcing of the meet, end up being moved to the unsecure Meets area. I think this is where people start to get concerned.

Maybe a good compromise would be to leave the Meets forum public, but allow people to have meet-related discussions in HH. That way, if people want to publicize a meet, list the particulars, talk about what to do, etc., they can choose to put it in the publicly accessible Meets area. And if people want to talk about things that are a little more sensitive, like making housing arrangements, or sharing pictures and stories, they'd be free to post that in the more secure HH forum.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think this should be a big deal. Naturally, there are threads in HH that some people are interested in, and some aren't. People have different interests. A meet-related discussion is really no different from this. And typically, far more people read and posts to meet threads than just the meet participants. So the topics really are of broader interest. And as for the Meets forum, it's a lot less intimidating to newcomers to just have a list of meets, details on each event, and how to participate, rather than a forum full of personal story threads, picture threads, and a whole lot of discussion that doesn't pertain to them.

Would this make sense? Or am I missing something?

Rcrew

07-25-2006, 04:29 PM

Hey David, a question.

I assume you use traffic monitors/reports to attract and possibly set costs for advertisers? Do you make a differentiation between casual visitors and registered members? Do your clients view higher membership numbers as garnering a more consistent audience?

Assuming that requiring membership to read the meets forum would in fact increase registrations, would that then be a bonus to the business side of this operation?

Rcrew

07-25-2006, 04:47 PM

Oh, and another question, with a preamble... and I hesitate with the preamble, because I've seen them turn into an 'I'm not intending to offend you...' excuse to offend someone. Not my goal here.

And David, I absolutely understand this isn't a democracy. This is your child, please don't infer anything other than that from this question.

I've read through here, and other than David, the only posts I see supporting no change are Dougs. I also read a comment from him that should the Meets section go to registration required for read, he wanted settings done that would allow bots/spiders to continue to search.

I'm not terribly web savvy, so I'll ask as best as I can. Doug, do you use those kinds of tools to search, index, sort, categorize, and archive information from the meets thread? I'm not asking what you do with such information should you be grabbing it, just wanting to know if you are archiving it.

David Bott

07-25-2006, 04:55 PM

Hi Rcrew...

The sponsors of the site like to see fresh traffic more than just returning visitors. Returning visitors do not pay as much attention to the ads for the most part. The sponsors care for the most "eyes on" any given ad. As such, if the same people just returned all the time, the ad views are less attractive as a marketing point.

The total registered members really does no play a roll for the most part for we do not do a mailing currently which would attract them to that number.

For yesterday for example...Here are the stats...

Monday July 24th 2006
Total Unique Visitors 39,124
First Time Visitors 30,050
Returning Visitors 9,074 (As tracked via a cookie)

So to answer your question...No bonus. Nice thought though. (BTW...We only really have 4 sponsors of this site who asked to be here directly (TiVo being one). All the others are AVS Ads that I also run here that do not pay to be here directly. Thus I am working on complete new model for this site to keep it running.)

Side Note....The moderators do not see an issue with the meets being closed to registered members only. I also do not see a major reason it could not be either other than I like the idea of people seeing a community like this in action. If they can not see it, they may not get the attraction. As you can see by Monday numbers alone, a lot of new eyes seeing the site daily.

After speaking with some people, their seems though to be more to this request though. We still have no real answer as to the request other than "and all of us there were in agreement that it sounded like a good idea". But for what reason? Why was it even talked about? Kids photos? We are at a loss on it all together. I do not make changes on a whim. As mentioned, as you again can see by the numbers, eyes on what is happening between forum members with meets can be of interest to see. Right now...of the 19 people viewing the area, only 4 are logged in as members. Thats my point I guess. But no one seems to see that aspect of it. I do, for I need to consider all viewers and most forget I need to look at a much larger picture.

Skittles

07-25-2006, 05:22 PM

Gunnyman

07-25-2006, 05:40 PM

what Skittles said.
Thanks David.

dswallow

07-25-2006, 06:39 PM

I've read through here, and other than David, the only posts I see supporting no change are Dougs. I also read a comment from him that should the Meets section go to registration required for read, he wanted settings done that would allow bots/spiders to continue to search.

I'm not terribly web savvy, so I'll ask as best as I can. Doug, do you use those kinds of tools to search, index, sort, categorize, and archive information from the meets thread? I'm not asking what you do with such information should you be grabbing it, just wanting to know if you are archiving it.
There was at least one other... at least I do construe from him posting his SS# (or pretending to), that having the section available to anonymous readers isn't a problem with him. :)

There's also this mysticsim around some parts that spreads a lot of rumors and innuendo about what I do with forum info/statistics gathering. If I wanted to grab full text of the forums, I could... since I'd be writing scripts to do that specifically, with the knowledge it'd have to log in in order to get everything. After all, I have to have the script log in to update posts like the member posting statistics or the Now Playing index.

In this post, I'm referring simply to the typical search engine spiders that just scan web sites anonymously and have no specific ability/intelligence to log in to gain access to private areas. There are certain conventions they obey, including not indexing or caching the contents of individual pages based on some meta keywords that can be placed on the page. It'd be possible to detect a bot/spider accessing the site and to allow it access to forums that are otherwise members-only, and to specify that those pages not be cached by the search engine, but allow them to be indexed. Then someone using a search engine could still find stuff, but the only way to view the contents of the page would be to come to the site, where they'd have to be registered to view the content.

I do not now and have never previously archived the full-text content of any post or thread in this forum/site/family of sites. At most I track threads (and their title/creator/dates), and even that was limited to the Now Playing forum until I was asked to produce some statistics of all posts for use in some sort of Vegas TC Con contest a couple months ago.

YCantAngieRead

07-25-2006, 09:56 PM

I just want to say, David, that even if you don't make these changes, I appreciate that you've been very open minded about this and willing to listen to discussion. I fully understand and appreciate your side of this argument, and would like to say Thank You for at least listening to this suggestion.
Agreed, and thanks to your explanations, I've had a couple of questions answered that I wanted to ask but didn't want to come off the wrong way. :)

shady

07-25-2006, 11:54 PM

I believe there are/have been gatherings where the purpose is to bring ones TiVo(s) and upgrade them -- thus having the help of people who've done it before as well as making a social setting of it.

You have to admit though, that the logical place to discuss that would be in the TiVo Upgrade Center Forum.

dswallow

07-26-2006, 12:01 AM

You have to admit though, that the logical place to discuss that would be in the TiVo Upgrade Center Forum.
Possibly; except it might be considered clutter to people looking to get upgrade info -- at least if there was a lot of such gatherings being talked about/considered. Though the moderators are real quick to move any thread discussing any aspect of a meeting of users to the Meets forum. I'm actually surprised they haven't yet done so with this thread. :) They've recently hit other threads that had nothing to do with meets and moved them, just because the thread discussed some people who got together (not in any way a TCF gathering).

In the same sense the placement of the Meets forum on the main page is odd -- at the top of the "Main TiVo Forums" section, which seems to place some sort of extra emphasis on it.

There'll often be confusion though. I still haven't quite figured out if I should talk about a movie in theatrical release in the "Now Playing" forum or in the "Happy Hour" forum; I usually post about movies in Now Playing if they are on a TV/cable channel only.

David Bott

07-26-2006, 03:55 AM

"In the same sense the placement of the Meets forum on the main page is odd -- at the top of the "Main TiVo Forums" section, which seems to place some sort of extra emphasis on it."

When created I wanted it to get views to draw attention to the meets. No better place than the top of the site. Not to mention, it was not meant to be an off topic type area, but related to the site and TiVo Community meets.

Dan mentioned that the numbers posted above for current readers of the section may be like that based on the placement. (Which means it is doing what I would have liked it to do.) But I have at this time moved it down to the Off Topic area just above HH to see what happens with the numbers.

Ereth

07-26-2006, 09:41 AM

David,

I have no opinion on this either way, as I don't spend much time in the Meets area, but it struck me while reading through the thread that we have had one issue with pictures of children posted at a Meet in the past, and that was when some pictures of the first Meet included Justapixels child and someone took those pictures of her child and photoshopped them into rather unpleasant pictures. I believe they ended up on Fark, but I don't remember for certain.

In any case, that's the only instance of which I'm aware, but I do remember that JAP was quite upset over it (rightly so!) and it made her change her whole demeanor about posting pictures.

I don't know if one incident in 5 years is sufficient to warrant locking the Meets forum or not, and as I said, I don't care one way or the other, but since you were asking about any specific reasons one might want that, I thought I would remind us all of that. I would think Ann, at least, would be in favor of it, given her history.

jsmeeker

07-26-2006, 12:31 PM

It was a pic of her son from a meet that got Farked. But I suppose it could have been done by someone who WAS registered member of the board. Maybe even one who was a regular poster.

I like that the Meet forum is now under the "Off Topic" section. Always seemed a tad odd that it was the very top most forum to me as well. I guess mostly becasue I don't expect many people who aren't at least semi-regular HH posters to care enough to meet. Then again, it's probably happened, so maybe David's placement of it really wasn't all that off the mark.

as far as the Off Topic section being locked out to non-members? I never even knew it was like that until people pointed it out way back in the past. Since I AM a member, I'll never notice, and it really won't ever effect me.