Series 3 drives SATA?

[tmtech]

Hi,

I know the series 3 is still not released but has there been anything to indicate what kind of drives it uses? I have the opportunity to get a pair of 500 gig SATA drives dirt cheap because they were purchased but need to be upgraded to 750 gigs. I'd like to buy them but the only use I have for them is if the series 3 is SATA, since I'd want to upgrade the unit on day one.

My hr10-250 already has 2 400 gig drives so if they didn't change the IO bus then I won't need to do anything...

Not to be rude but if it's just raw speculation save the bandwidth and don't reply... BUT if you're seen one at CES and say the inners...


Thanks,
Tom

[rminsk]

I know the series 3 is still not released...
...
Not to be rude but if it's just raw speculation...Anything posted on this thread will be raw speculation. The internals were not show at CES and anyone that would know would be breaking there non-disclosure agreement.

[oldskoolboarder]

IIRC, the box from CES was shown w/ an external drive connected via eSATA, which the external version of SATA.

Regardless, even if the S3 was PATA, you could use PATA to SATA dongles which aren't very $$.

[stevel]

We also don't know that the internal drive is user-upgradeable. But I would guess that it's a SATA drive inside as well.

[etsolow]

Knowledgeable sources (http://community.livejournal.com/tivolovers/252572.html) think the internal drives will IDE, not SATA.

[tmtech]

Thanks for the input... I know anyone that truly knows can't post but I was hoping a side comment at CES might have been passed on. Back when I was an SE we used to get all kinds of dirt at DECUS (a trade show) that digital wasn't prepared to publish.

I think I'll go ahead and buy the drives. For $300 for the pair I could always resell them and come out even I guess.

Thanks,
Tom

[tmtech]

Great info!! Thanks!

Knowledgeable sources (http://community.livejournal.com/tivolovers/252572.html) think the internal drives will IDE, not SATA.

[kbohip]

Hi,

I know the series 3 is still not released but has there been anything to indicate what kind of drives it uses? I have the opportunity to get a pair of 500 gig SATA drives dirt cheap because they were purchased but need to be upgraded to 750 gigs. I'd like to buy them but the only use I have for them is if the series 3 is SATA, since I'd want to upgrade the unit on day one.

My hr10-250 already has 2 400 gig drives so if they didn't change the IO bus then I won't need to do anything...

Not to be rude but if it's just raw speculation save the bandwidth and don't reply... BUT if you're seen one at CES and say the inners...


Thanks,
Tom

You could always try using one of these SATA to ATA converters (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822998001) with the SATA drives. I have no idea if this would work with Tivo or not. Maybe someone here knows or has tryed this already? I'd be interested myself to know.

[Mark Lopez]

I'd like to buy them but the only use I have for them is if the series 3 is SATA, since I'd want to upgrade the unit on day one.

Not to be rude but if it's just raw speculation save the bandwidth and don't reply...

Ummm... Isn't is just raw speculation on your part that the unit will even be upgradeable (especially on 'day one')?

[painkiller]

Pardon me for butting in, I don't think it is exactly raw speculation.

If my memory serves, there was a demonstration of the Series 3 during a show earlier in the year - with pictures of that unit including the rear connections.

Again, if memory serves, I seem to recall that there were connections for adding external drives (SATA). This would be instead of replacing or adding internal drives.

[stevel]

That's different.

TiVo has said that the e-SATA port on the back panel will be usable for expansion. My memory was that at CES it was stated that there would be "TiVo-approved" expansion disks, but at TC-CON 06 last month, Pony said that anyone's e-SATA drive should work. Nobody is questioning this.

The unknown is whether or not knowledgeable users can replace the disk inside the box and still have the TiVo work. Might TiVo have changed the disk structure so that mfs_tools don't work? Is there maybe some added security feature that locks the box to the disk drive? I certainly hope not, and think that TiVo is smart enough not to tick off the hacking community which has supported it for so long, but with HD and nervousness of content providers, anything is possible.

Then again, since there IS known to be external expansion, I don't see the point of restricting internal expansion.

[Bierboy]

That's different.

TiVo has said that the e-SATA port on the back panel will be usable for expansion. My memory was that at CES it was stated that there would be "TiVo-approved" expansion disks, but at TC-CON 06 last month, Pony said that anyone's e-SATA drive should work. Nobody is questioning this.

The unknown is whether or not knowledgeable users can replace the disk inside the box and still have the TiVo work. Might TiVo have changed the disk structure so that mfs_tools don't work? Is there maybe some added security feature that locks the box to the disk drive? I certainly hope not, and think that TiVo is smart enough not to tick off the hacking community which has supported it for so long, but with HD and nervousness of content providers, anything is possible.

Then again, since there IS known to be external expansion, I don't see the point of restricting internal expansion.
Well put, Steve. Upgrading and expansion are two different things, and not just a matter of semantics. Even if the S3 proves to be internally upgradeable, many if not most (inlcuding me) would feel much more comfortable expanding storage with the external e-SATA drive.

[stevel]

Oh, and Pony also said that if you plug in an e-SATA drive that it is "married" to the internal drive just as in current two-disk TiVo boxes. That means you can't swap in a different external drive without losing all your recordings on BOTH internal and external disks. (But it's ok if the external disk is removed and then reattached - you won't lose anything but you can't watch or record until the external drive is reattached.)

[etsolow]

Oh, and Pony also said that if you plug in an e-SATA drive that it is "married" to the internal drive just as in current two-disk TiVo boxes. That means you can't swap in a different external drive without losing all your recordings on BOTH internal and external disks. (But it's ok if the external disk is removed and then reattached - you won't lose anything but you can't watch or record until the external drive is reattached.)
Boy, I sure hope it's not that kludgy!!

[stevel]

Well, Pony was quite emphatic about it. It makes sense in that it's the way multiple disks work today. I guess they didn't bother with coming up with a new system that would isolate things. Unfortunately, it has all of the downsides of dual disks today when one goes bad.

[tmtech]

Yes, but since every Tivo I've owned since the original 15 gig unit has been upgradeable I willing to take that risk. I think they would be loath to annoy the hacking community but, of course, I could be wrong.

Ummm... Isn't is just raw speculation on your part that the unit will even be upgradeable (especially on 'day one')?

[kdmorse]

Boy, I sure hope it's not that kludgy!!

If you add an external drive, and then shows get recorded onto the external drive, and then you remove the external drive and tell the Tivo the drive is *gone*, well... those shows will disappear. Don't really see any way around that :)

The way I interpreted TivoPony's comments, is that things recorded *since adding the new drive* will be lost if the new drive is removed.


-Ken

[amjustice]

So what else did you guys find out from Pony about the Series 3 at the con this year??

[HiDefGator]

As fast as drives are dropping in price and growing in size, by the time you get an S3 in your hands the drives may be that cheap anyway. Why pay for them until you actually have a need for them?

[etsolow]

Boy, I sure hope it's not that kludgy!!

If you add an external drive, and then shows get recorded onto the external drive, and then you remove the external drive and tell the Tivo the drive is *gone*, well... those shows will disappear. Don't really see any way around that :)
Well, of course! :D

The way I interpreted TivoPony's comments, is that things recorded *since adding the new drive* will be lost if the new drive is removed.

Yeah, I thought it was something like that, as opposed to:

That means you can't swap in a different external drive without losing all your recordings on BOTH internal and external disks. (But it's ok if the external disk is removed and then reattached - you won't lose anything but you can't watch or record until the external drive is reattached.)

E

[stevel]

Pony said that once you add an external drive, both drives together are treated as "one big drive" and that shows may be recorded across both disks. That is exactly how it works today with dual-disk TiVos so that's not really a surprise. If you remove one of the disks, you effectively lose everything previously recorded.

Another thing I remember is that the S3 remote is a learning remote, so S3 users won't keep griping about not having codes for that brand new Mugwump LCD TV they bought at Joe's Fish, Bait and HDTVs. And it's a lighted remote which lights when you pick it up.

There is an OLED display on the front panel that tells you what it is recording now. HDMI version is 1.1 (might be 1.0, but no later than 1.1.)

The last thing I remember right now is that some of the TiVo service features available now, such as KidZone, may not be available at launch for the S3 (because they forked the development stream some time ago.) They would be added back in later.

[Mark Lopez]

Yes, but since every Tivo I've owned since the original 15 gig unit has been upgradeable I willing to take that risk. I think they would be loath to annoy the hacking community but, of course, I could be wrong.

I really don't understand why people think the hacking community plays such a big role these days. Tivo will put in whatever 'safeguards' they are asked to and IMO couldn't care less about the hacking community or their 'approval'.

[Bierboy]

As fast as drives are dropping in price and growing in size, by the time you get an S3 in your hands the drives may be that cheap anyway. Why pay for them until you actually have a need for them?...and that may be sooner rather than later....latest S3 news! (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=308083)

[tmtech]

I don't think the community plays a "big" role. Unfortunately Tivo isn't exactly setting the PVR world on fire which is odd considering how good the product is and how good the buzz is for Tivo. Given that purposefully thwarting disk expansion just doesn't do much more than annoy people who would be vocal about the issue and create a small amount of bad press.

Don't think it'd amount to much but why cause any ill will over expansion? Video extraction is another matter all together and that's an unrelated hack as demonstrated by the hr10-250.

I really don't understand why people think the hacking community plays such a big role these days. Tivo will put in whatever 'safeguards' they are asked to and IMO couldn't care less about the hacking community or their 'approval'.

[CcntMnky]

I just re-watched a vid from CES (can't post the link yet, search Google for "gear live tivo series 3 video interview"). In it the rep says that the eSATA drive has to be purchased from Tivo. I'm not sure if he was confused by the question, or are they really locking us into they're drive?

I was hoping to immediately add a SATA drive at a discount from my employer, but am I going to have to wait for the community to figure out the file system/device authentication again?

[kdmorse]

That may have been the original plan, but later deemed impractical. Remember that Tivo was originally planning on offering tivo certified drive upgrades in the S1's, but got around to it. Perhaps they came to the conclusion that keeping themselves out of the sales loop for the external drives would be best for all concerned.

Now you're supposed to be able to pick up any old esata drive at best buy, plug it in to your S3, and be off to the races.

-Ken

[sonicboom]

The problem with the external drives is the noise. I have a LaCie external drive connected to my computer, and the thing rattles and hums creating: vibration, noise and annoyance. I leave it off most of the time becasue of this. Connecting one to the tivo would mean you'd need to leave it on all of the time. That plus the tivo itself makes for some noisy components in the family room.

[stevel]

Depends on the drive used. I have three external drives in my home setup, and they're all quiet.

[bkdtv]

The problem with the external drives is the noise. I have a LaCie external drive connected to my computer, and the thing rattles and hums creating: vibration, noise and annoyance. I leave it off most of the time becasue of this. Connecting one to the tivo would mean you'd need to leave it on all of the time.
There are plenty of very quiet / near-silent drives available. LaCie drives are generally built with cost or performance in mind, not acoustics.

You can find a noise comparison of 500Gb SATA drives right here (http://www.storagereview.com/articles/200607/500_6.html). The 500Gb Western Digital RE2 WD5000YS is just 0.6dB louder than the quietest modern drive they have tested in the past few years -- quieter than the drives used in many Tivos.

If you want a quiet drive for the Series3, you should avoid brands like LaCie and instead, buy a quiet drive and stick it in an external case without a fan. You'll save money too, because a good part of what you are paying for in a product from LaCie is the brand name on the outside of the box.