All Tivos with digital tuners next year?

[Welshdog]

The FCC has mandated that all new TV sets in all size ranges and other TV receivers include a DTV tuner beginning March 1, 2007. from this doc at the FCC

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-190A1.pdf

My understanding of this statement is that it includes anything with a TV tuner in it -VCRs, Tivos and the like. So that would seem to indicate that all Tivos (or anything else) sold after March 1 of next year will have ATSC tuners in them. So I'm wondering if that means all Tivos will be series 3 HD units or if some will be "lesser" machines that don't record 1080 but rather 480i only. Any new "digital" Tivo will of course still have to have analog outputs for the millions of existing old school TVs.

Also, if the Series 3 comes out at the end of this year, that doesn't leave much time for new models to be released before March 1. I think there is going to be more than just the S3 coming out this fall.

[ZeoTiVo]

They only need the ATSC tuner if they have an NTSC tuner in them - read OTA here.

since TiVo took the NTSC tuner out of the Dual Tuner unit - no way to record from antenna - then the series 2 Dual Tuner is not affected by this ruling. No need to worry. Cable systems will NOT be broadcasting all digital by then so the sereis 2 will record like it does now for the forseeable future. Nothing to worry about.

the Series 3 is the one that will record OTA and will have an NTSC/ATSC tuner in it from the first day.

[Welshdog]

They only need the ATSC tuner if they have an NTSC tuner in them - read OTA here.

... TiVo took the NTSC tuner out of the Dual Tuner unit

Ahh sneaky, er I mean yes great!

Makes sense. Most folks get their TV via cable anyway. Although it will mean that those who do use antenna will be restricted to using the S3 for OTA after March 1, 2007. We don't know the cost of the S3 yet, but it most likley will be more than the DT. I guess the Series 2 Single Tuner will cease to exist after the cutoff date?

[Sirshagg]

Although it will mean that those who do use antenna will be restricted to using the S3 for OTA after March 1, 2007. We don't know the cost of the S3 yet, but it most likley will be more than the DT. I guess the Series 2 Single Tuner will cease to exist after the cutoff date?

The single tuner TiVo's will still work after March 1, 2007. I believe the date you are referencing is when manufacturers can't sell units without digital tuners, not when all broadcasts must be digital.

[TiVo Troll]

Ahh sneaky, er I mean yes great!

Makes sense. Most folks get their TV via cable anyway. Although it will mean that those who do use antenna will be restricted to using the S3 for OTA after March 1, 2007. We don't know the cost of the S3 yet, but it most likley will be more than the DT. I guess the Series 2 Single Tuner will cease to exist after the cutoff date?

I just swiped, 'er, purchased at a great price, the last Westinghouse LVM-42W2 (http://www.pricegrabber.com/p__Westinghouse_LVM_42W2_42_LCD,__16643153) at a Best Buy on the West Coast! (My statement is undoubtedly hyperbole, but although the link shows them available from Best Buy, try to find one!)

A neat thing about this set is that it's 1080p capable. Westinghouse got the LVM-42W2 to the price point it did by eliminating tuners completely, thus qualifying it as a monitor. I got a floor model for $1499. There may be other floor models still available at some Best Buy's which aren't listed in their online database.

[Welshdog]

The single tuner TiVo's will still work after March 1, 2007. I believe the date you are referencing is when manufacturers can't sell units without digital tuners, not when all broadcasts must be digital.

Yeah I should have said "New Tivo buyers" since they will be the only ones affected. If you buy a new Tivo after that date it will have to be an S3 if you want to get analog OTA signals.

Currently the date for cutoff of analog transmission is in 2009, but I bet that will change again.

[yunlin12]

I just swiped, 'er, purchased at a great price, the last Westinghouse LVM-42W2 (http://www.pricegrabber.com/p__Westinghouse_LVM_42W2_42_LCD,__16643153) at a Best Buy on the West Coast! (My statement is undoubtedly hyperbole, but although the link shows them available from Best Buy, try to find one!)

A neat thing about this set is that it's 1080p capable. Westinghouse got the LVM-42W2 to the price point it did by eliminating tuners completely, thus qualifying it as a monitor. I got a floor model for $1499. There may be other floor models still available at some Best Buy's which aren't listed in their online database.


Man, you did good! $1499! I say even "swiped" is understating it. Check out the thread on AVS's LCD/plasma forum for service menu code, which will let you fine tune the color. They may also have a new firmware coming out if you run into any lock ups and find it annoying.

[wmcbrine]

What they did with the Series 2 DT seems quite a dodge, to me. I'm not convinced it will pass muster. Analog cable is still NTSC.

But eventually digital tuners will be cheap enough to include in all Tivos. In fact, I'm not sure why they aren't already... or why the Series 3 needs to cost over $500... other than because there are people who'll pay it.

[jfh3]

What they did with the Series 2 DT seems quite a dodge, to me. I'm not convinced it will pass muster. Analog cable is still NTSC.


It's not cable that matters - it's OTA.

The mandate is pretty simple - if you have a NTSC tuner, you must have an ATSC tuner. The DT has neither and is in compliance.

[Raj]

It's not cable that matters - it's OTA.

The mandate is pretty simple - if you have a NTSC tuner, you must have an ATSC tuner. The DT has neither and is in compliance.


The dual tuner has a (two) NTSC tuner. A cable tuner is an NTSC tuner. It's not an OTA tuner, but it's definitely NTSC.

What could be the loophole here, however, is if series 2 dual tuner is marketed as a cable box replacement. Cable boxes don't need DT tuners.

By the way, a lot of cable systems are going digital, at least around here. It'll be slower than FCC mandated DT but going digital brings benefits to the cable company (such as increased revenue from each additional box).

[mattack]

The dual tuner has a (two) NTSC tuner. A cable tuner is an NTSC tuner. It's not an OTA tuner, but it's definitely NTSC.

I can't find an absolute citation to the contrary (wikipedia's entry on NTSC doesn't show it in a quick skim), but I believe NTSC also includes the channel mapping in the standard.

The channel mapping over cable is similar, but not the same, as OTA NTSC broadcasts.
That's why "cable ready tuners" used to be at a premium, and some devices have a user-specified setting whether to use OTA or cable-ready tuner.

So what people are saying is that the devices are free to still be able to receive analog cable broadcasts, but they cannot receive OTA analog broadcasts unless they also contain a digital tuner, after the cutoff date..

[wmcbrine]

So what people are saying is that the devices are free to still be able to receive analog cable broadcasts, but they cannot receive OTA analog broadcasts unless they also contain a digital tuner, after the cutoff date..That's how Tivo is choosing to interpret it. I think it's a big stretch.

But I guess it depends on the exact wording of the regulations...

[dmdeane]

That's how Tivo is choosing to interpret it. I think it's a big stretch.

But I guess it depends on the exact wording of the regulations...You'd have to look at the exact wording of the law or regulation, but I'd lay good odds that TiVo isn't simply trying to pull a "fast one" but instead is complying with the law or regulation exactly as written. After all, it is their business and they have to pay people to make sure they are in legal compliance in order to avoid unnecessary complications that could lose them money.

Since analog (NTSC) cable TV is not going to disappear any time soon and since it is not being forced by the FCC to go away, unlike OTA NTSC, it seems pretty obvious to me that cable tuners are not included in this law/regulation, and that therefore TiVo is on solid legal ground. Why would the FCC go out of their way to make it harder to manufacture analog cable TV devices when the FCC doesn't have as much regulatory power over networks that don't use the public airwaves (cable) and which are under no legal mandate to switch from analog to digital (again, cable) anyway? Cable will switch to all digital eventually, but more for their own financial reasons, and not due to the FCC's regulations killing off OTA broadcast NTSC which don't apply to them. There are some mandates on cable having to do with CableCARD which were part of the "deregulation" laws that apply to cable, but we've seen already that the FCC is in no rush to hurry this process along.

By the time this "loophole" is closed, TiVo will be putting ATSC tuners in all TiVo boxes anyway. The price of ATSC tuners will come down long before the FCC does anything to force cable companies to go all digital.

[Raj]

I can't find an absolute citation to the contrary (wikipedia's entry on NTSC doesn't show it in a quick skim), but I believe NTSC also includes the channel mapping in the standard.

WEll then just say OTA NTSC. NTSC is a signal standard as well. All analog cable broadcast in the USA and Canada is broadcast in NTSC (it certainly is not broadcast in PAL or SECAM!)

The channel mapping over cable is similar, but not the same, as OTA NTSC broadcasts.

Not quite. For VHF 2-13 it is very similar. From 14-68 they use frequencies allocated to other services. Since it is closed circuit, they don't have to worry too much about interference from those services (in theory). 69 and up uses the OTA UHF channels.


That's why "cable ready tuners" used to be at a premium, and some devices have a user-specified setting whether to use OTA or cable-ready tuner.

The difference in a modern cable ready tuner between cable channels and OTA channels is minimal. They only used to be a premium because people would pay.

So what people are saying is that the devices are free to still be able to receive analog cable broadcasts, but they cannot receive OTA analog broadcasts unless they also contain a digital tuner, after the cutoff date..

Yes, which is exactly what I was saying. If TiVo's DVR's are marketed as cable box replacements with the tuners working only in cable mode they are safe. If they have any OTA capability with the NTSC VHF/UHF OTA channels mapped to the proper channel numbers they have to have ATSC tuners.

[ZeoTiVo]

No need to panic folks. There is no stretch - no pulling of a fast one by TiVo and as long as the mass of TV sets out there with a simple tuner for hooking up coax cable will work - then a TiVo will work.

And since analog cable is currently 44% of the cable industry customer base - I do not think cable companies are going to be quick to mess with that large customer base :rolleyes:

[kb7oeb]

I am surprised by this, if tv set manufactures could use this loop hole few of them would have atsc tuners but every new set I have seen in the store over 25 inches does. They have a lot of 24 inch sets now but the bigger ones do have atsc.

NTSC is used everywhere, NTSC comes out of your DVD player, it comes out of your video game console, it comes out of your TIVO and basically anything with composite or S-Video. Its used analog OTA, analog cable and even analog satellite.

Channels 2-13 are exactly the same OTA or cable and 65-125 are close enough that most tuners will still lock. I really doubt tivo did anything to the hardware and simply removed software support for OTA.

And since analog cable is currently 44% of the cable industry customer base - I do not think cable companies are going to be quick to mess with that large customer base :rolleyes:

Not within the next few years but they will reach a point where it will be cheaper to give analog customers a box so they can reclaim a lot of capacity wasted on analog. Since tv set companies are having to include digital hardware for ATSC they will start adding support for QAM and cablecard giving people a cablebox free tv. Cable card is usually only supported on high end tv sets today where most people want a cable box for the extra features, cable card is a better fit for secondary sets.

[ZeoTiVo]

I am surprised by this, if tv set manufactures could use this loop hole few of them would have atsc tuners but every new set I have seen in the store over 25 inches does. They have a lot of 24 inch sets now but the bigger ones do have atsc. But TVs are still bought to hook up to an antenna so TV manufacturers have a slightly different customer base. TiVo is basically saying if you want to record analog OTA then get a single tuner while you can, but if you are really into OTA then most likely you are picking off free HD channels so get a series 3 when it comes out. Seemss like removing the OTA option from the SD sereis 2 is just acknowledging the shift toward digital that is slowly happening

Channels 2-13 are exactly the same OTA or cable and 65-125 are close enough that most tuners will still lock. I really doubt tivo did anything to the hardware and simply removed software support for OTA. I think you may be right but the dual tuner was new hardware so they may have not placed an OTA tuner on the new board design. IF they sell the single tunrs after the deadline I would suspect they will just remove software support as you say - if they keep selling them.


Not within the next few years but they will reach a point where it will be cheaper to give analog customers a box so they can reclaim a lot of capacity wasted on analog. Since tv set companies are having to include digital hardware for ATSC they will start adding support for QAM and cablecard giving people a cablebox free tv. Cable card is usually only supported on high end tv sets today where most people want a cable box for the extra features, cable card is a better fit for secondary sets.
cablecard TVs are becoming more prevalent and this will help the digital changeover. It is really just that current 44% number that is holding back the cbale companies. If that 44% had a TV that could easily get the digital stream than that is not a barrier. BUT the cable companies also have PPV/VOD in their business model so making it easy to have digital without the cable box is not in their short term interest either as Cable Card 2 with interactive ability seems more long term a goal to reach right now.

[TiVo Troll]

Channels 2-13 are exactly the same OTA or cable and 65-125 are close enough that most tuners will still lock.


Yep. Not quite a cigar but close (http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/cablech.html)! (OTA 70 through 83 are no longer used.)

[classicsat]

I think you may be right but the dual tuner was new hardware so they may have not placed an OTA tuner on the new board design. IF they sell the single tunrs after the deadline I would suspect they will just remove software support as you say - if they keep selling them.

The DT has pretty well the same tuner as the ST has. There is nothing in the hardware preventing it from tuning analog OTA. There just happens to be no software support for analog OTA on them, thats all.

IMO, they will cease production on the S2-ST late this year, and let the pipe clean out of them by March 1.

[classicsat]

I am surprised by this, if tv set manufactures could use this loop hole few of them would have atsc tuners but every new set I have seen in the store over 25 inches does. They have a lot of 24 inch sets now but the bigger ones do have atsc.

TVs above 24" (or so) are mandated to have ATSC tuners. Have been for a couple of years. Later, smaller ones will.


NTSC is used everywhere, NTSC comes out of your DVD player, it comes out of your video game console, it comes out of your TIVO and basically anything with composite or S-Video. Its used analog OTA, analog cable and even analog satellite.

They aren't banning NTSC as a video format altogether (yet), just OTA broadcast of NTSC.

Channels 2-13 are exactly the same OTA or cable and 65-125 are close enough that most tuners will still lock. I really doubt tivo did anything to the hardware and simply removed software support for OTA.

Exactly.

Not within the next few years but they will reach a point where it will

Who do you mean "they"
If you mean TiVo will have a cheaper lower end Series 3 type box, perhaps by the end of the decade.

be cheaper to give analog customers a box so they can reclaim a lot of capacity wasted on analog. Since tv set companies are having to include digital hardware for ATSC they will start adding support for QAM and cablecard giving people a cablebox free tv. Cable card is usually only supported on high end tv sets today where most people want a cable box for the extra features, cable card is a better fit for secondary sets.
That is supposeing CC will be around in a few years.

[mick66]

Yep. Not quite a cigar but close (http://www.nonvalidurl.html)


That's "close, but no cigar"

[kb7oeb]

TVs above 24" (or so) are mandated to have ATSC tuners. Have been for a couple of years. Later, smaller ones will.


Yes and that is the same law that I thought required digital tuners in all devices even VCRs.

They aren't banning NTSC as a video format altogether (yet), just OTA broadcast of NTSC.

Or to be more precise analog broadcasts. The original goal was to reclaim bandwidth used by analog, digital stations aren't supposed to need an empty channel between them like analog needs.

I often read where people intermix Analog and Standard Definition, it bugs me so maybe I am just nit picking.


Who do you mean "they"
Cable companies, they will want to reclaim bandwidth wasted on analog for digital use be it internet, phone or digital tv. Cable will reach a point where its more profitable to give out cable boxes than keep analog going.

Yep. Not quite a cigar but close (http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/cablech.html)! (OTA 70 through 83 are no longer used.)
I know, I meant cable 64 is about the same as OTA 14 the exception being 95-99. Those channels are actually low VHF below channel 2. I think cable 125 is OTA 69, I know I can pick up OTA 61 on cable 117. I have seen digital QAM tuners that go as high as channel 135.

[megazone]

Yes and that is the same law that I thought required digital tuners in all devices even VCRs.Again, only if they have OTA NTSC tuners. There are 'TVs' larger than 25" with neither - but they get called 'monitors'. You can still feed many of them NTSC, but they don't have *tuners* - neither NTSC nor ATSC. That's the same thing TiVo has done.

The FCC mandate applies *only* to over-the-air broadcasts. It has no bearing on cable or satellite devices - even if that device has a cable tuner capable of tuning analog cable NTSC signals.

Go look up the regulations, all the FCC filings are available online.

You might call this rules lawyering, but it is not a dodge or an interpretation. The S2DT complies with the FCC requirements.

[kb7oeb]

I have not seen a new TV that has an NTSC tuner that can only tune cable channels. For the tivo to be the same as your monitor comparison it would have to lack any tuner and rely on an external tuner.

Maybe tivo can get away with it by saying they are selling an advanced analog cable box. I just don't see why a tivo is not covered when the rule specifically mentions a VCR.

[ZeoTiVo]

I just don't see why a tivo is not covered when the rule specifically mentions a VCR.

cause a TiVo is much more than a VCR :)

[Raj]

And since analog cable is currently 44% of the cable industry customer base - I do not think cable companies are going to be quick to mess with that large customer base :rolleyes:

I beg to differ. In NYC they started by moving HBO and premiums off analog. Then they gradually phased in digital.

Analog is going away, like it or not.

[Adam1115]

I say the OP is right, this is bull crap. The SPIRIT of the law is that any tv reception device have an ATSC tuner. It would be like HD TV companies getting mad at the mandate and excluding ALL tuners from the TV making it a 52" monitor.

They SHOULD have put ATSC tuners in the DT, what they are doing is idiotic and NOT the point of the mandate. (Regardles of whether 'technically' it's legal.)

What, should 13" TV's start having NO TUNER to bypass the rules??

[Raj]

I am surprised by this, if tv set manufactures could use this loop hole few of them would have atsc tuners but every new set I have seen in the store over 25 inches does. They have a lot of 24 inch sets now but the bigger ones do have atsc.

That's because they are marketed as television sets. Some sets marketed as monitors don't have to have a tuner at all.

Channels 2-13 are exactly the same OTA or cable and 65-125 are close enough that most tuners will still lock. I really doubt tivo did anything to the hardware and simply removed software support for OTA.

Not always. Because every adjacent channel is used in cable, the video carriers are sometimes different.



Not within the next few years but they will reach a point where it will be cheaper to give analog customers a box so they can reclaim a lot of capacity wasted on analog. Since tv set companies are having to include digital hardware for ATSC they will start adding support for QAM and cablecard giving people a cablebox free tv. Cable card is usually only supported on high end tv sets today where most people want a cable box for the extra features, cable card is a better fit for secondary sets.

Or they will do like what Time Warner did in NYC - start to move channels one by one to digital only and force people who signed up for new cable to get digital service.

It is in the cable company's best interest to move everyone to digital - it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of WHEN.

[Raj]

I say the OP is right, this is bull crap. The SPIRIT of the law is that any tv reception device have an ATSC tuner. It would be like HD TV companies getting mad at the mandate and excluding ALL tuners from the TV making it a 52" monitor.

They SHOULD have put ATSC tuners in the DT, what they are doing is idiotic and NOT the point of the mandate. (Regardles of whether 'technically' it's legal.)

What, should 13" TV's start having NO TUNER to bypass the rules??


Can the DT's work with an antenna?

[kb7oeb]

Can the DT's work with an antenna?

No they do not.


I found this on the fcc website

- Other video devices (videocassette recorders (VCRs), digital video recorders such as hard drive
and DVD recorders, etc.) that receive television signals - 100% of all such units must include
DTV tuners effective March 1, 2007.

and the full text

(i) Digital television reception capability implementation schedule. (1) Responsible parties, as defined
in Section 2.909 of this chapter, are required to equip new TV broadcast receivers that are shipped in
interstate commerce or imported from any foreign country into the United States and for which they are
responsible to comply with the provisions of this section in accordance with the following schedule:
- Receivers with screen sizes 36” and above - 50% of all of a responsible party’s units must
include DTV tuners effective July 1, 2004; 100% of such units must include DTV tuners effective
July 1, 2005
- Receivers with screen sizes 25” to less than 36” - 50% of all of a responsible party’s units must
include DTV tuners effective July 1, 2005; 100% of such units must include DTV tuners effective
March 1, 2006
- Receivers with screen sizes less than 25” - 100% of all such units must include DTV tuners
effective March 1, 2007
- Other video devices (videocassette recorders (VCRs), digital video recorders such as hard drive
and DVD recorders, etc.) that receive television signals - 100% of all such units must include
DTV tuners effective March 1, 2007.
The requirement to include digital television reception capability in new TV broadcast receivers does not
apply to devices such as mobile telephones and personal digital assistants where such devices do not
include the capability to receive TV service on the frequencies allocated for broadcast television service.


I read much of the PDF and I didn't see anything about cable only devices, I still have a hard time thinking that tv makers wouldn't follow the same logic and leave out OTA support but when I was at a best buy a few months ago all of the $300 range 27 inch standard tv sets had ATSC tuners in them.

[TiVo Troll]

I say the OP is right, this is bull crap. The SPIRIT of the law is that any tv reception device have an ATSC tuner. It would be like HD TV companies getting mad at the mandate and excluding ALL tuners from the TV making it a 52" monitor.

They SHOULD have put ATSC tuners in the DT, what they are doing is idiotic and NOT the point of the mandate. (Regardles of whether 'technically' it's legal.)

What, should 13" TV's start having NO TUNER to bypass the rules??

Shoulda', coulda'; yep! But that's apparently not where customer bucks are. TiVo is apparently still walking a thin line toward profitability.

TiVo isn't for everyone; it's been pitched perhaps somewhat unsuccessfully to the mass market but now is busy establishing itself as the leading DVR product for broadband oriented customers who don't want their DVR only on a computer.

If anyone is at fault for the technicalities of the law it's Congress, not TiVo.

[Adam1115]

Can the DT's work with an antenna?

Yes, they sure can. But TiVo disabled the software to pretend that they can't to skirt the law and not include ATSC tuners.

[TiVo Troll]

Can the DT's work with an antenna?

Yes, they sure can. But TiVo disabled the software to pretend that they can't to skirt the law and not include ATSC tuners.

So exactly how are you saying they'll "work"? Manually, without EPG data, if you select the cable channel closest in frequency to the OTA channel you want to watch? I doubt that any of TiVo's automatic recording features will work without a channel map.

[Adam1115]

So exactly how are you saying they'll "work"? Manually, without EPG data, if you select the cable channel closest in frequency to the OTA channel you want to watch? I doubt that any of TiVo's automatic recording features will work without a channel map.

Isn't that exactly what I said?

TECHNICALLY the DT is equiped to record OTA, same is a Series 2. But TiVo DISABLED the option in the DT and is trying to call it a cable only box to skirt the issue of including ATSC tuners.

While LEGALLY it's probably fine, I think it goes against the spirit of the law requiring ATSC tuners.

If a TV company built a "Cable Only TV" that had NTSC tuners but was marketed NOT FOR OTA for Cable ONLY would that fly? I doubt it...

[Raj]

I actually meant if it was enabled.

So if they disabled it, they are in compliance.

[TiVo Troll]

Isn't that exactly what I said?

TECHNICALLY the DT is equiped to record OTA, same is a Series 2. But TiVo DISABLED the option in the DT and is trying to call it a cable only box to skirt the issue of including ATSC tuners.

While LEGALLY it's probably fine, I think it goes against the spirit of the law requiring ATSC tuners.

If a TV company built a "Cable Only TV" that had NTSC tuners but was marketed NOT FOR OTA for Cable ONLY would that fly? I doubt it...

What you first posted came across as vague and easy to misinterpret to me.

Many cable tuners won't properly receive an OTA UHF channel on the cable channel closest to the OTA frequency. Sometimes there's a good picture; sometimes a fuzzy snowy picture; and sometimes just a swirl of dots. So it is misleading to state what you did, IMHO.

Has anyone tried to use a dual tuner Series 2 to tune OTA UHF channels manually? Did it work?

[classicsat]

I read much of the PDF and I didn't see anything about cable only devices, I still have a hard time thinking that tv makers wouldn't follow the same logic and leave out OTA support but when I was at a best buy a few months ago all of the $300 range 27 inch standard tv sets had ATSC tuners in them.

It is about broadcast (AKA OTA) receiving devices. Since the DT is technically not a broadcast receiver (it receives cable), it doesn't matter.
I suppose if a TV manufacturer wanted to, they could make a cable only TV.

[megazone]

I read much of the PDF and I didn't see anything about cable only devicesYou even quoted a pertinent section:The requirement to include digital television reception capability in new TV broadcast receivers does not
apply to devices such as mobile telephones and personal digital assistants where such devices do not
include the capability to receive TV service on the frequencies allocated for broadcast television service. "Broadcast television service" is FCC-speak for OTA. TiVo has decided to make the S2DT fall under 'such devices' by not including the capability to receive TV service, etc, etc.

And it doesn't matter if the hardware *could*, the product *does not*, and that's what matters.

[megazone]

While LEGALLY it's probably fine, I think it goes against the spirit of the law requiring ATSC tuners.Perhaps, but I predicted this WAY, WAY back. I'm sure there are old posts of mine around here, and I know I've said it elsewhere, months before the S2DT was announced. It was an obvious move, IMHO and I expect to see others.

[Adam1115]

Perhaps, but I predicted this WAY, WAY back. I'm sure there are old posts of mine around here, and I know I've said it elsewhere, months before the S2DT was announced. It was an obvious move, IMHO and I expect to see others.

You did, I remember. And you were right.

I disagreed, and am shocked by the move.. I guess I should'nt have been!

[wmcbrine]

And it doesn't matter if the hardware *could*, the product *does not*, and that's what matters.Doesn't it? Lack of guide data alone won't stop it from receiving OTA channels. I admit, I don't have a Series 2 DT, so I can't check this. Does it, I dunno, shut down if it doesn't get a signal on cable channel 14? Or (as I suspect), can you not just hook up an antenna, tell it that you're on cable, and get 2-13 just fine? Maybe even record from them properly, if the local cable company carries them on the same channels as broadcast (likely)?

[megazone]

Or (as I suspect), can you not just hook up an antenna, tell it that you're on cable, and get 2-13 just fine? Maybe even record from them properly, if the local cable company carries them on the same channels as broadcast (likely)?That doesn't matter. The product officially does not tune antenna, period. By coincidence a few VHF channels use frequencies close to cable channels, so it will technically tune them thinking they're cable. But that doesn't matter to the FCC, that doesn't make it an OTA tuner.

[Adam1115]

That doesn't matter. The product officially does not tune antenna, period. By coincidence a few VHF channels use frequencies close to cable channels, so it will technically tune them thinking they're cable. But that doesn't matter to the FCC, that doesn't make it an OTA tuner.

So you think TV companies should just take the OTA option out of the menus and market them as "CABLE ONLY" claiming it doesn't have an OTA tuner?

[wmcbrine]

That doesn't matter.Yes it does.

By coincidence a few VHF channels use frequencies close to cable channels,That's not coincidence. It's how cable TV started.

But that doesn't matter to the FCC, that doesn't make it an OTA tuner.Who says it doesn't? Only Tivo (and you). The FCC hasn't ruled on it... and I wouldn't put money on them ruling in Tivo's favor, if and when it comes up.

[Adam1115]

Yes it does.

That's not coincidence. It's how cable TV started.

Who says it doesn't? Only Tivo (and you). The FCC hasn't ruled on it... and I wouldn't put money on them ruling in Tivo's favor, if and when it comes up.

Correct, the exact ruling states "Other video devices (videocassette recorders (VCRs), digital video recorders such as hard drive and DVD recorders, etc.) that receive television signals - 100% of all such units must include DTV tuners effective March 1, 2007."

I'm not sure why megazone is insisting the DT does not receive television signals just because they market it for cable only... (not that the FCC does not state anything about WHERE the television signals come from.. in fact they state.. "Consistent with the need to promote a rapid and orderly end to the DTV transition, we continue to believe it is desirable and appropriate to advance the date by which all new television receiving equipment must include the capability to receive over-the-air broadcast DTV signals." indicating they feel any device used to watch TV should receive DTV.

Of course it hasn't been challenged because it is not March 1, 2007. After that date, the DT could be pulled from the market if they don't comply.

[classicsat]

I'm not sure why megazone is insisting the DT does not receive television signals just because they market it for cable only...

He isn't, he is instising that the DT officially does not receive Broadcast television, thefefore following the letter of the law.

Broadcast being FCC speak for OTA.

[mattack]

I'm not sure why megazone is insisting the DT does not receive television signals just because they market it for cable only... (not that the FCC does not state anything about WHERE the television signals come from.. in fact they state.. "Consistent with the need to promote a rapid and orderly end to the DTV transition, we continue to believe it is desirable and appropriate to advance the date by which all new television receiving equipment must include the capability to receive over-the-air broadcast DTV signals." indicating they feel any device used to watch TV should receive DTV.

But it is NOT television receiving equipment, that's what you're not getting.

It is *cable* signal receiving equipment.

[jfh3]

But it is NOT television receiving equipment, that's what you're not getting.

It is *cable* signal receiving equipment.

Don't confuse him with facts ...

[wmcbrine]

He isn't, he is instising that the DT officially does not receive Broadcast television, thefefore following the letter of the law."Officially" in this case meaning "because Tivo says it doesn't"... which has doubtful legal standing. I'd put more weight on the reality that it does. But that's just me, not the FCC, who haven't spoken on Tivo's plan.

I see no reason to believe that Tivo can just disclaim their way out of the regulation. That's what this amounts to.

But, enough of this discussion; we're going around in circles.

[quango]

Well, if we read the regulation as "it must receive ATSC, even if it can't tune UHF TV channels," then the reg would also apply to the cable boxes issued by cable companies--and since I don't see the cablecos in any hurry to develop an OTA ATSC-capable cable box, I think TiVo is interpreting the regs correctly.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see a future single-tuner Series 2 that includes an ATSC and clear QAM tuner, but I doubt it'll show up until analog shutdown is nigh, ATSC tuners are dirt cheap, and TiVo figures out a way to give it away with a one-year commitment--i.e. to market it as an upgraded alternative to people using their $50 ATSC tuner gift certificates from the Feds--they probably won't be able to spend it on a TiVo, but by late 2008 the components for a stripped down S2+ATSC/QAM should be cheap enough to give it away with a $150 ETF at the $12.95 a month price.

[bicker]

That's really it: Until the FCC explicitly outlines a requirement, then it doesn't exist. The fact that over the course of 50 messages here there is no consensus that the requirement exists is more than enough evidence that it doesn't -- that explicit clarification by the FCC is necessary before anyone needs concern themselves with the concept that there is such a requirement.

[megazone]

"Officially" in this case meaning "because Tivo says it doesn't"... which has doubtful legal standing.Hardware components can have many *possible* applications, but it the product they are in does not officially support them then the manufacturer is not responsible for them. The *product* is the Series2DT. It officially does not support broadcast TV. You have to trick it into handling OTA. The FCC is not full of idiots. They're not going to treat a *hack* as forcing regulatory compliance. That's assinine.

Because of the shared ancestry there is no reasonable technological way to support cable and NOT support some OTA frequencies. The FCC, as weird as they can be at times, is not stupid. They're not going to require cable tuners be unable to tune the same frequencies that happen to be used by broadcast stations.

It can be misused to tune some OTA channels. So can many cable boxes. That doesn't make the S2DT, nor the cable boxes, OTA tuners subject to the regulations. You know, when I was younger I had an old FM radio that I could tune into the ranges used by TV stations. I suppose that would need ATSC support too since it could tune the frequencies. ;-)

It is simple - you claim applies to many cable boxes too. So either any cable box that can be tricked into tuning OTA needs an ATSC tuner, or the S2DT doesn't. Which one seems more likely?

Maybe crazy Uncle Chester who picks up the local station on the plate in his head needs an ATSC retrofit. ;-)

[megazone]

That's really it: Until the FCC explicitly outlines a requirement, then it doesn't exist.And I would find it HIGHLY doubtful that TiVo would invest the resources in bringing the product to market without checking with the FCC. And they are in regular communication with the FCC over such issues as CableCARD.