Tivo Desktop 2.3 - Dave Zatz Review Posted

[gconnery]

Dave Zatz has his review of Tivo Desktop 2.3 up.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-06/tivo-dekstop-23-released/

[p.s. yes its mispelled in the real link]

[davezatz]

[p.s. yes its mispelled in the real link]
How come no one told me?! Sheesh, you'd think my editors work for free. ;) I wouldn't call it a review, more of an overview of features. I'm still tracking down more details and will be testing DSD in one minute.

UPDATE: I should have a little more information in a few hours. Stay tuned!

[mfrns0123]

One thing I am disappointed with is the ability to schedule a specific time to start downloads. I like them to run in the middle of the night, Not as soon as the show ends.

[Stu_Bee]

So I take it that since it lists Treo as an output option, this is a DRM free output?
Also what are the output resolutions? Treo 650 only has a 320x320, but other palm models (ie TX, T3) have 480x320.

[davezatz]

Major kudos to TiVo who allowed me a few minutes on the phone with VP Jim Denney! It's been a long few days and I'm beat, so I probably won't get the info posted until the AM... but you should probably drop by when I do. :D

[davezatz]

Stay tuned... it's going to take a few hours to put this together nicely and there's a possibility it'll run on Engadget instead of ZNF. I'll post an update when I have one. I apologize in advance if anyone feels I'm spamming the board. :)

[KJW]

Please, PLEASE, let us know if the Tivo software solves the video/audio synch problems with PSP Video9.

[davezatz]

The video/audio sync problem with PSP Video 9 isn't caused by TiVo. I assume TiVo's new software syncs audio/video just fine. I have my license key and will do some experimenting over the next few days and report back on quality, size, speed, etc. In the meantime I'm still compiling info from last night's discussion. :)

I assume others will also start reporting in. I can't be the only one who's activated the software. ;)

[ACraigL]

Any word on future pricing? Will we have to continue to pay for new releases or will the "activation" key follow us with new revs?

[davezatz]

I didn't think to ask that at the time. Perhaps Pony will chime in somewhere on that. I *assume* the licensing is for the MPEG decoding/encoding and should transfer to updates (Denney *did* emphasize automatic checking/downloading of software updates).

[ACraigL]

One other thing, if someone can verify... I have ~7000 mp3s. TD 2.2 would consistently crash when trying to queue these up (I 'serve' the main directory) whereas Galleon handles it just fine.

Why consider an alternate to Galleon then? Since I got a plasma TV, I'm sensitive to burn-in and even with the screensaver function, I'm prone to switch the TV off. Since TD has the info "bouncing" around, I can safely use it while the TV is on.

In short, can 2.3 handle serving this many Mp3s?

[davezatz]

Engadget is running a summary of my conversation:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/22/tivo-vp-jim-denney-talks-desktop-2-3/

Quick summary: Transcoded files are 320x240 and (not-visibly) watermarked with info that ties back to our accounts. TiVo is attempting a tightrope act to give us the features we want yet protect content owners material. We'll see how that plays out. Sounds like the Desktop Plus codecs may be used in the future to power TiVoBack. No real news on Mac or S3 TTG.

Thanks again to TiVo for taking the time to chat with me - and after hours!

PS I have verified DSD still works. I will be doing some speed, quality, sze, etc comparisons/tests in the next few days and will of course report back.

[gonzotek]

Good work Dave!

[Dan203]

In short, can 2.3 handle serving this many Mp3s?

Probably not. I was checking TD 2.3 against a debug build of my Universal Audio Plug-in to make sure they were compatible and it still requests tag information for every single file in a directory (and all it's sub directories). I'm pretty sure this is what causes it to crash trying to load large libraries. I think Galleon is smart and only requests tag information for the files in the directory currently being displayed, which is why it doesn't have a problem.

I was able to work around this problem somewhat in my plug-in by returning generic info for files not in the current directory, but this logic doesn't apply to MP3s so it would only work if you had a large directory of other file types. (and even then I haven't actually tested it to see if this trick prevented it from crashing - I only have a couple hundred songs in my iTunes directory)

Dan

[Stormspace]

Dave this is great. You are doing a bang up job and thanks to TiVo for giving you the info!

Some questions and comments I have, comments first.

I think I B and M'ed about the codec issues (Meaning lack of) quite loudly here and with Customer Service a while back and I'm glad TiVo is now supplying those. This part at least is really good news, though I did find my own solution and it doesn't really help now. It will if I ever get a portable device though. :)

Also large library MP3 support is important, as well as being able listen to music during a slide show. When I use Galleon if I leave the TV on I'll have a slide show running to prevent burn-in. Does the new version support music this way, large libraries and slideshows?

How does licensing work? It is per household(TiVo account basically) or per machine? In my house each of the children have their own PC they transfer to if they want to watch in their room, so a per machine license for Plus would get a bit pricey if they ended up needing the plus features. :)

How do they handle reinstallation of Plus? Is the key stored online in your account information, or are you given the key one time and have to keep it safe?

At any rate, thank's for all the work you are doing rooting through the new program!

[Dan203]

I was just looking at how MP3s are supported in TD and it looks like they use a plug-in just like everything else. So it might be possible to write our own MP3 plug-in that could handle large libraries better. If I have some free time I'm going to look into this a little more.

Dan

[ACraigL]

Hi Dan,
That would be great. I gave it a shot with 2.3 and it still crashes. Looking forward to your findings. At the same time I find it simply amazing that this was untested or deemed unimportant enough to not worry about.

I wonder what their acceptable threshold was for the amount of MP3s I'm allowed to own. :)

[gonzotek]

Hi Dan,
That would be great. I gave it a shot with 2.3 and it still crashes. Looking forward to your findings. At the same time I find it simply amazing that this was untested or deemed unimportant enough to not worry about.

I wonder what their acceptable threshold was for the amount of MP3s I'm allowed to own. :)
I have ~4000 shared, at the moment. TiVo Desktop doesn't show any unusual behavior playing them. Is it possible that one or more files could be corrupted in some way? I've had files with bad metadata cause issues with my various playback devices (both hardware and software, TiVo included). Eventually I used Foobar2000 to re-tag everything(with a lot of hand tweaking).

A way to test for this and narrow things down is to cut your collection in half, share the first half and see what happens (e.g. does it crash or not), then repeat with the second half. If either half causes the crash, it could contain a bad file; if it does, divide it in half and repeat until you've got it narrowed down to a handful. Of course, if it doesn't crash with either half of your collection, then you've probably proven that the bug is the size of the collection, and not an issue with the individuals files.

[Dan203]

Well if it's what I think it is then they must have simply never tested it against a large library. The fix is fairly simple. However I'm not sure how easy it'll be to incorporate MP3 playback into my plug-in as it's designed to transcode other formats into MP3, not play them directly. But I'll give it a try and see how it goes.

Dan

[ACraigL]

gonzotek,

Another test would be to duplicate your entire collection and see if it crashed. That's less trial and error for me ;)

Kidding. I may give that a shot if I get some extra time to run up and down my stairs.

[davezatz]

If you have a laptop on your home network, maybe try VNC to save the stair running. :)

[ACraigL]

No laptop. :(

[gonzotek]

It takes 13 iterations to take 7000 units down to a single unit, dividing in half each time. I can see where that would equal a lot of stair-climbing! ;)

[syounger64]

Does anyone know if this new feature allows for closed captioning or subtitles to be transferred to the PSP???

[Dan203]

No it does not. However there is a 3rd party program on this forum somewhere that can extract TiVo closed captioning to subtitles, which you could then use another program to add to the transfered show. Do a search I'm sure it'll come up

Dan

[syounger64]

Well...all I can say is that its a shameful practice not to include captions or subtiles or even worse to make folks who actually need them to jump thru extra loops to get the same enjoyment as everyone else.

I did get the captions working on my TTG shows on my laptop thanks to a generous developer so I guess Ill try to tolerate the extra loops once again to get the show plus the captions on my Sony PSP. Just remember that this is AFTER I pay that fee and I already could transfer the shows or movies to my psp via PSP 9 video but without captions.

How do you burn or add the captions/subtiles PERMANENTLY to these MPEG-4 files (TTG files)? Thats what I want to know.

Thanks.

[davezatz]

How to transcode prior downloads:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-06/desktop-23-hack-transcode-prior-downloads/

How to transcode to higher resolutions:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-06/desktop-23-hack-transcode-to-higher-resolutions/

[ACraigL]

syounger64,

I've had good experiences with Lathe for subtitles:
http://www.omniquiti.com/store.php

I used Lathe (DivXPocketEncoder's pay-for sibling) for all my PMP/iPod encoding... pretty happy with it.

* just make sure you use the 1.6, currently in beta as it fixed this functionality. I've also used virtualdub with vobsub, but it can be more complex to do so.

[syounger64]

Thanks guys! Ill check out everything and report if I had success.

[syounger64]

Hi guys....
Is there any progress with burning subtitles to videos before transferring to the psp? I'm almost ready to throw my arms up in defeat.
Thks.

[Puppy76]

So I take it that since it lists Treo as an output option, this is a DRM free output?
Also what are the output resolutions? Treo 650 only has a 320x320, but other palm models (ie TX, T3) have 480x320.

I'd think maybe the "MPEG4" option would work well for other Palms?

Or I guess one of those links show you how to get higher than 320x240 from the command line. Probably 320x240 would look fine though on a small screen.

[Killerz298]

I use Videoredo to edit my tivo files (take out commercials etc...) also sometimes convert to divx/xvid (WMV sucks it!). Will using 2.3 have any effect on this? Any stuttering audio and sync issues?

Should I stick with 2.2 which works perfectly for editing the transferred .tivo files to any format I wish plus dvd burning etc...?

I have no desire to encode for ipod or anything like that, are there any other reasons to upgrade to 2.3 regular or plus if I don't want to use that feature? Does 2.3 regular or plus have any other added benefits that make an upgrade worth it?

[dtreese]

[p.s. yes its mispelled in the real link]

Of course, the above should read, "...it's misspelled..."
:D:D

[Puppy76]

Looks like the only other extra thing is the ablility to schedule shows for transfer, which could be useful for some people.

[Killerz298]

Looks like the only other extra thing is the ablility to schedule shows for transfer, which could be useful for some people.
Nah, don't need/want that either. I guess if thats all, I will stick with working 2.2. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. :up:

[davezatz]

Nah, don't need/want that either. I guess if thats all, I will stick with working 2.2. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. :up:

I think the auto-downloads feature is pretty useful. Updating to 7.3 should have zero impact on your VideoReDo process. However, I generally agree with your updating philosphy.

[Killerz298]

I think the auto-downloads feature is pretty useful. Updating to 7.3 should have zero impact on your VideoReDo process. However, I generally agree with your updating philosphy.
Do you mean 2.3? I am talking about Tivo Desktop not TV software version.

And also, I remember when the desktop version went from 2.1 to 2.2 I think it was, a lot of programs/tricks for converting stopped working. Finally it was figured out that replacing one new file with an old file would get things back to the good old days. That is what I am concerned about here as the status quo is working great for me and I don't want to deal with things "breaking" again because of an upgrade.

[davezatz]

Yes, that's what I meant. I'm distracted in another window with the 7.3.1 priority update and obviously crossed some wires. :)

[treswrld]

Can anyone tell me why TiVo desktop is transferring an analog digital cable file of the PBS documentary series Frontline "The Dark Side" in an 8:9 aspect ratio. I am using TiVo Desktop Version 2.3 without the portable (mpeg-4) conversion and every time I transfer video from my Series 2 DT TiVo it squashes a 4:3 display of a 16:9 video source into 8:9. I don't know what the problem is. Please help me.

[davezatz]

It is most likely the codec installed on your computer causing the problem. Try downloading the VLC player (free) which has a built-in codec and see if the picture looks any better.

[treswrld]

Where can I find this VLC player?

[Killerz298]

Where can I find this VLC player?
GOOOOOOOGLE is your friend!!

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&q=VLC%20player

First Link!

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

[mrjam2jab]

i just upgraded to 2.3. Auto transfered (best feature :) ) a couple of 1/2 hour shows. Went to watch them to confirm the ep info....and no video! I tried a second one..same thing. I went to another show i had from previous http transfer....again no video.... :-(

I tried viewing with WMP...Nero...VLC...Quicktime....all with same result. Show shows in "Now playing" of the particular player...you see the show timer running...but cant see the show...

[davezatz]

Do you have another computer? I'd be interested to hear if you moved a show over and if you could or could not play it... to help determine if it's the file or your computer. THOUGH the fact that it also didn't play in VLC suggests it might not be a codec problem. Hmmmm.

Here's a shot in the dark - update your video drivers or change settings recently? Could the video overlay be hosed? Maybe try playing some other sort of video - put a DVD in?

[mrjam2jab]

I did get a movie to play in WinDVD....a movie that was not pulled from TIVO...it seems anything with a .tivo extension is currently not playing.

right now the only other PC is an older one that had trouble playing videos before. Our laptop, which would be perfect is currently in to HP for repair. But i'll try it with the other PC anyway.

Im not pulling these to PC to watch...more just for external storage. So as long as they play when put back on Tivo im good. But they should still play on PC...so i would like to fix that.

[Killerz298]

Perhaps there is some MAK problem?

[greg_burns]

I tried viewing with WMP...Nero...VLC...Quicktime....all with same result. Show shows in "Now playing" of the particular player...you see the show timer running...but cant see the show...

Try Media Player Classic. People usually have success with that when others player/codecs are giving them trouble.

http://www.afterdawn.com/software/video_software/video_players/media_player_classic.cfm

Although, if VLC isn't working sounds like something is seriously wrong somewhere.

[mrjam2jab]

Got it playing in Media Player Classic now.....I'm hearing Norm Abram...but im not seeing the garden dry sink he is talking about... :-(

What kind of MAK problem?

[Killerz298]

Got it playing in Media Player Classic now.....I'm hearing Norm Abram...but im not seeing the garden dry sink he is talking about... :-(

What kind of MAK problem?
Well if it is playing in classic then forget about MAK problem. If it was a MAK problem it wouldn't play AT ALL.