Series 2 DT and OTA

[control-z]

A friend of mine that I've been preaching Tivo to for years surprised me and bought himeself a Series 2 Dual Tuner this weekend. BUT, he's planning on using it with OTA analog signal. The Series 2 DT isn't supposed to support OTA for some reason, is this a lost cause? He called Tivo and the guy said it might work if he deleted all the cable channels from the lineup (?)

[terryfoster]

You might want to search on the thread that covered this with the same subject as yours. Cable frequencies loosely fit into OTA frequencies. You won't get a match on channel designation on most cases, but you are placing alot of faith of the TiVo guide matching the OTA line up.

Bottom line is: Yes it will kinda work, but not very well and he is better off getting a S3 when it is released.

[control-z]

I did finally find the old thread.

My condensed version: Looks like Tivo maybe didn't include analog OTA tuning because of a federal mandate that will require both analog and digital OTA in equipment starting next year.

And although you could probably get channels 2-13 working, the UHF channels would not work well.

[vman41]

My condensed version: Looks like Tivo maybe didn't include analog OTA tuning because of a federal mandate that will require both analog and digital OTA in equipment starting next year.


If there was a requirement for both, then they'd be violating the law by not having the analog tunner.

The local ABC and Fox affiliate is demanding money for TW cable to carry their HD channels. With the series 3 let me hook up an antenna for digital reception of those 2 channels while using digital cable via cablecard for everything else?

[Jonathan_S]

The local ABC and Fox affiliate is demanding money for TW cable to carry their HD channels. With the series 3 let me hook up an antenna for digital reception of those 2 channels while using digital cable via cablecard for everything else?It should. It does support OTA digital.

Although how complicated it will let you get in specifying changes OTA vs. cable isn't something that I've seen posted anywhere. But it should be straightforward.

[ZeoTiVo]

A friend of mine that I've been preaching Tivo to for years surprised me and bought himeself a Series 2 Dual Tuner this weekend. BUT, he's planning on using it with OTA analog signal. The Series 2 DT isn't supposed to support OTA for some reason, is this a lost cause? He called Tivo and the guy said it might work if he deleted all the cable channels from the lineup (?)

he may want to go back to a single tuner series 2 that supports analog OTA

[jfh3]

[Will] the series 3 let me hook up an antenna for digital reception of those 2 channels while using digital cable via cablecard for everything else?

Yes, assuming you play around with "channels I receive" a bit.

[control-z]

he may want to go back to a single tuner series 2 that supports analog OTA

I think he's going to return the S2 DT and wait for the Series 3.

[megazone]

Short version. The FCC mandate is that any device that has an OTA NTSC tuner must also have an OTA ATSC tuner. This effectively means the choice is having neither or having both. TiVo chose neither on the S2DT, and will have both on the S3.

The S3 will have only two inputs - both coax, one for cable, one for antenna. The signals are split and tuned internally.

A lot of details were reported in old threads based on my CES reports, or in my original posts at TiVoLovers.com (http://www.tivolovers.com/tag/series3)

[Adam1115]

Actually, here's a really cool thought... why not get a DT, use for Analog Cable ONLY. Get a compatible ATSC OTA Tuner, set it up as a Dish Network Receiver and only select the local channels. Then you'd have OTA (Crystal Clear) and dual tuner cable...? No?

As discussed here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=291435&page=1&pp=30

[TiVo Troll]

Actually, here's a really cool thought... why not get a DT, use for Analog Cable ONLY. Get a compatible ATSC OTA Tuner, set it up as a Dish Network Receiver and only select the local channels. Then you'd have OTA (Crystal Clear) and dual tuner cable...? No?

Can a dual tuner Series 2 control an ATSC OTA tuner?

[bluedakar]

Can a dual tuner Series 2 control an ATSC OTA tuner?

Probably not, but why couldn't Tivo add support for that? Seems like it would be perfectly legal and they could probably do it with just a software upload. Maybe they feel that capability would cut into the S3 sales.

[TiVo Troll]

Probably not, but why couldn't Tivo add support for that? Seems like it would be perfectly legal and they could probably do it with just a software upload. Maybe they feel that capability would cut into the S3 sales.

Yeah TiVo, why not?

"I like it; I love it; I want some more of it!"

[jfh3]

Probably not, but why couldn't Tivo add support for that? Seems like it would be perfectly legal and they could probably do it with just a software upload. Maybe they feel that capability would cut into the S3 sales.

If you want to record from an ATSC tuner, buy a Series 3.

How many people are going to buy a standalone tuner + a Series 2 when a Series 3 wouldn't be much more?

[SullyND]

Probably not, but why couldn't Tivo add support for that? Seems like it would be perfectly legal and they could probably do it with just a software upload. Maybe they feel that capability would cut into the S3 sales.

Well, unless you wanted SD OTA AND basic cable, a DT controlling an OTA STB would be able to record only one channel at a time. A regular S2 would be a much better (and cheaper) option.

[Adam1115]

Probably not, but why couldn't Tivo add support for that? Seems like it would be perfectly legal and they could probably do it with just a software upload. Maybe they feel that capability would cut into the S3 sales.

The thread I linked (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...35&page=1&pp=30), if you would have bothered to click on it, would explain how people are using a series 2 to control certain ATSC STB's telling the TiVo they are Dish Network receivers.

So, YES, the TiVo WILL control a ATSC STB, giving you a DUAL TUNER Analog Cable DVR with 480P ATSC OTA locals. Point is, this way you CAN get OTA with the DT.

[bluedakar]

If you want to record from an ATSC tuner, buy a Series 3.
That's probably going to be the easiest solution by far.

How many people are going to buy a standalone tuner + a Series 2 when a Series 3 wouldn't be much more?
Hard to say. I guess it depends on how much more the S3 costs. If you look at the Voom ATSC OTA they are talking about in the other thread they are going in the 60.00 and up range on ebay. If you get the rebate on the S2 DT they are about 100.00. Now if you had to pay 200.00 for a ATSC OTA tuner, 100.00 for the S2 DT and the difference for the S3 was only a couple hundred I would agree most people including myself would go for the S3. It will have a lot more to offer.

Well, unless you wanted SD OTA AND basic cable, a DT controlling an OTA STB would be able to record only one channel at a time. A regular S2 would be a much better (and cheaper) option.
I have basic cable provided with my internet connection at no extra charge and I receive an excellent ATSC OTA signal. I have D*Tivos that I would like to dump and save the programming charges but still have a dual tuner. Switching between two SA would be no fun after having the DT D*Tivos for so long.

The thread I linked (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...35&page=1&pp=30), if you would have bothered to click on it, would explain how people are using a series 2 to control certain ATSC STB's telling the TiVo they are Dish Network receivers.
Fair enough. You are correct. I had read that thread and should have qualified my reponse to read "Probably not without jumping through a bunch of hoops!" ;)
I was speaking more to the built in capabilities but you are correct.

Point is, this way you CAN get OTA with the DT.
And my point is, why doesn't Tivo make this easier for us? Everybody's situation is a little different so why can't Tivo do what SEEMS like a simple enough thing and offer this capability? Are they worried it will have an adverse effect on sales?

[TiVo Troll]

The thread I linked (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=291435&page=1&pp=30), if you would have bothered to click on it, would explain how people are using a series 2 to control certain ATSC STB's telling the TiVo they are Dish Network receivers.

So, YES, the TiVo WILL control a ATSC STB, giving you a DUAL TUNER Analog Cable DVR with 480P ATSC OTA locals. Point is, this way you CAN get OTA with the DT.

VOOOOOM! (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=291435&page=1&pp=30)

IC :rolleyes:

That's good to know but way more complicated than should be necessary!

Why, by a fluke, should an activated box from a discontinued service be the only practical way that a TiVo can control an ATSC OTA tuner?

C'mon TiVo, you can do better than this! Stop playing games with both the 30 second skip and the ability to control digital OTA tuners.

[Adam1115]

VOOOOOM! (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=291435&page=1&pp=30)

IC :rolleyes:

That's good to know but way more complicated than should be necessary!

Why, by a fluke, should an activated box from a discontinued service be the only practical way that a TiVo can control an ATSC OTA tuner?

C'mon TiVo, you can do better than this! Stop playing games with both the 30 second skip and the ability to control digital OTA tuners.

It's not. I think the issues is similar IR codes and not requiring a "DASH" in the channel change.

BUT, your right, why can't this be supported in the TiVo softare? (Cable + OTA Stb)

[megazone]

BUT, your right, why can't this be supported in the TiVo softare? (Cable + OTA Stb)I'm sure it could, but of all the different engineering efforts TiVo can devote resources too, is there enough pay off in adding ATSC OTA receiver control to do it? From TiVo's own reports, very few of their customers use OTA today. How does the OTA ATSC receiver market compare to the cable box or satellite receiver market? Are there standard IR codes, libraries, etc, TiVo can use?

[TiVo Troll]

I'm sure it could, but of all the different engineering efforts TiVo can devote resources too, is there enough pay off in adding ATSC OTA receiver control to do it? From TiVo's own reports, very few of their customers use OTA today. How does the OTA ATSC receiver market compare to the cable box or satellite receiver market? Are there standard IR codes, libraries, etc, TiVo can use?
Can you link to any of the reports you refer to? When ATSC OTA becomes widely available within the next few years it will provide reception for local channels with picture quality equal to either digital cable or satellite and do so for free!

Whenever the demand for an IR code is relatively small, whether it be for OTA, cable, or satellite, but it is used to accesses programming from a databased DMA (http://www.nielsenmedia.com/DMAs.html), or cable/satellite channel line-up, a cost-effective way that TiVo might consider providing such codes is by adding an IR receiver to new TiVo boxes and enabling limited "learning" capabilities (for #'s 0-9 and possibly "enter"). (BTW, Glendive is in Montana (http://tv.backchannelmedia.com/dma/show/Glendive).)

[ZeoTiVo]

Can you link to any of the reports you refer to? When ATSC OTA becomes widely available within the next few years it will provide reception for local channels with picture quality equal to either digital cable or satellite and do so for free!

I have read on this forum as well that OTA is a small portion of TiVo base. Also the series 3 will record OTA so why should TiVo up the price/complexity of a DT when someone really wanting to record OTA has an option to do it.

short answer. It won't happen on a DT and very few TiVo users would want it on a DT

[Adam1115]

I'm sure it could, but of all the different engineering efforts TiVo can devote resources too, is there enough pay off in adding ATSC OTA receiver control to do it? From TiVo's own reports, very few of their customers use OTA today. How does the OTA ATSC receiver market compare to the cable box or satellite receiver market? Are there standard IR codes, libraries, etc, TiVo can use?

TiVo markets itself as being versatile. Should they not supprot small cable companies of MDU cable because there are 'very few people that care'? It would not be difficult to support, in fact, it already works. There is NOTHING they would have to do but enable it as an option and use the existing OTA lineup. They ALREADY support ATSC through a sat box, we're only talking about adding stand alone OTA boxes. It's already built in. There are no engineering efforts.

If it's such a minorty, why does it support ATSC through a Dish Network or DirecTV box??

I have read on this forum as well that OTA is a small portion of TiVo base. Also the series 3 will record OTA so why should TiVo up the :rolleyes: price/complexity of a DT when someone really wanting to record OTA has an option to do it.

short answer. It won't happen on a DT and very few TiVo users would want it on a DT

Uhm, the Series 3 does not EXIST, nor is their a release date. I love people arguing that stuff shouldn't work TODAY because a product may exist SOME DAY that will do what you want....

OTA people should just shut their TV's off for a year until the Series 3 comes out.. right? Or not own a DVR until the series 3 comes out? Or throw their current TiVo in the garbage can and buy a new one in a year??

[gonzotek]

Uhm, the Series 3 does not EXIST, nor is their a release date. I love people arguing that stuff shouldn't work TODAY because a product may exist SOME DAY that will do what you want....

OTA people should just shut their TV's off for a year until the Series 3 comes out.. right? Or not own a DVR until the series 3 comes out? Or throw their current TiVo in the garbage can and buy a new one in a year??Well, if the current TiVo is not a DT, they could just go ahead and use it. Or if they have a need to record OTA and don't yet have a TiVo get a non-DT (or two) instead of the DT.

The DT is a device designed specifically with the analog cable market in mind. It is optimized for analog cable, and compromises were made in other areas to make it work at a price that (hopefully) makes it attractive to the market (analog cable) TiVo was designing it for. Who should look into getting a DT? Analog cable customers. Who should look at the other options TiVo provides (ST S2, DirecTiVo, and S3 when available)? Non-analog cable customers (Sat, Digital Cable, and OTA users).

While I'm not going to recommend throwing a TiVo out or not owning a DVR until the S3 comes out, I am going to note that I have seen quite a few people say that they're specifically waiting on the S3 before locking themselves into a contract with TiVo and (in their own words) suffering with a cableco or sat-based hd dvr until it is available. Anecdotal evidence only.

[TiVo Troll]

I have read on this forum as well that OTA is a small portion of TiVo base. Also the series 3 will record OTA so why should TiVo up the price/complexity of a DT when someone really wanting to record OTA has an option to do it.

short answer. It won't happen on a DT and very few TiVo users would want it on a DT

You're probably right in thinking that it won't happen on the dual tuner Series 2.

As to why TiVo should enable control of ATSC OTA tuners on Series 2's; it's because TiVo has arbitrarily restricted digital capabilities to its upcoming hi-def Series 3 despite the fact that there will be many viewers of digital TV who won't watch TV in hi-def for a long time to come.

Hi-def capabilities don't make sense for millions of 27" and smaller CRT TV's although digital capabilities and TiVo's do. The increase in price/complexity to enable an outboard ATSC OTA tuner is no different from what is required to enable TiVo to control any other STB which requires a new IR code to be added to TiVo's database; something which happens routinely.

[gonzotek]

The increase in price/complexity to enable an outboard ATSC OTA tuner is no different from what is required to enable TiVo to control any other STB which requires a new IR code to be added to TiVo's database; something which happens routinely.But does that increased expense result in enough increased revenue to make the value worth it to TiVo? Remember, they not only need to make the software changes (minimal as they are) they also have to pay to support this new DT configuration with CSRs trained in this area. Until analog OTA transmission is actually switched off and people are scrambling to upgrade and/or band-aid their analog equipment with outboard ATSC tuners, how much of a ROI would you say TiVo will see? In my personal circle of friends, family and co-workers, only two have HD sets, which I assume have ATSC tuners in them, but they are using the HDTVs with HD DVRs, absolutely none have actually heard of ATSC, let alone the forced shut-off date looming, and none are planning any changes in their setups for that date.

[TiVo Troll]

But does that increased expense result in enough increased revenue to make the value worth it to TiVo? Remember, they not only need to make the software changes (minimal as they are) they also have to pay to support this new DT configuration with CSRs trained in this area. Until analog OTA transmission is actually switched off and people are scrambling to upgrade and/or band-aid their analog equipment with outboard ATSC tuners, how much of a ROI would you say TiVo will see? In my personal circle of friends, family and co-workers, only two have HD sets, which I assume have ATSC tuners in them, but they are using the HDTVs with HD DVRs, absolutely none have actually heard of ATSC, let alone the forced shut-off date looming, and none are planning any changes in their setups for that date.

As I said in post #25, Series 2 probably won't get the capability to control ATSC OTA tuners. But like it or not most people are going to be learning relatively soon that TV is going to a digital broadcast standard and tuners in millions of CRT TV's will no longer work. How to deal with that change entails a business decision for every TV related business. What makes sense competitively and economically; to be ahead of or behind the curve?

[ZeoTiVo]

As I said in post #25, Series 2 probably won't get the capability to control ATSC OTA tuners. But like it or not most people are going to be learning relatively soon that TV is going to a digital broadcast standard and tuners in millions of CRT TV's will no longer work. How to deal with that change entails a business decision for every TV related business. What makes sense competitively and economically; to be ahead of or behind the curve?


well that is just flat wrong to state that millions of CRT TV's will no longer "work". We all know there is a larger context to this and no cable company would shut off a large portion of its user base. Cable is under no mandate to go all digital. I expect to use my Analog TiVos for many years to come in some capacity. Solutions will be had and TiVo will be in on that solution if needed. But of course - those millions will have nothing to do with OTA recording, just a very small subset.


TiVo has not arbitrarily relagated things.
It has consciously decided that Analog and digital will be split

series 2 ST or DT will be for Analog (with a litle bit of Satellite thrown in since there is no way to get to the true digital stream of the sat. via 3rd party and thus little use to put this in the series 3 column.) So the only reason IR blasters are still on the DT was for satellite if you ask me.

and Digital will be the solely in the realm of Series 3 including ATSC OTA. it will not enable any Satellite receiver control.

[TiVo Troll]

well that is just flat wrong to state that millions of CRT TV's will no longer "work". We all know there is a larger context to this and no cable company would shut off a large portion of its user base. Cable is under no mandate to go all digital. I expect to use my Analog TiVos for many years to come in some capacity. Solutions will be had and TiVo will be in on that solution if needed. But of course - those millions will have nothing to do with OTA recording, just a very small subset.

What I posted in post #27 was that tuners in millions of CRT TV's will no longer work. Even if cable companies continue to provide analog basic cable services, and they certainly aren't required to, that statement remains accurate. There are apparently around 20 million OTA TV households in the US. Here (http://www.ncta.com/ContentView.aspx?contentId=54) are cable company statistics. These statistics from the NAB (http://www.nab.org/Newsroom/PressRel/Filings/OTAAtt81104.pdf) are more precisely broken out but are not as recent. Apparently there are almost as many OTA homes as there are Comcast Cable (http://www.ncta.com/ContentView.aspx?contentId=73) subs. Comcast is the largest program provider in the US with 21 million subs. DirectTV (http://www.answers.com/topic/directv?method=22) is 2nd largest with 15 million subs. Dish Network (http://www.answers.com/topic/dish-network) is third.

TiVo has not arbitrarily relagated things.
It has consciously decided that Analog and digital will be split

series 2 ST or DT will be for Analog (with a litle bit of Satellite thrown in since there is no way to get to the true digital stream of the sat. via 3rd party and thus little use to put this in the series 3 column.) So the only reason IR blasters are still on the DT was for satellite if you ask me.

and Digital will be the solely in the realm of Series 3 including ATSC OTA. it will not enable any Satellite receiver control.

TiVo decided that Series 3's capabilities will be very different from Series 2's using a marketing plan which undoubtedly is designed to maximize potential revenues from each Series. Capabilities are generally, but not completely, split between analog and digital programming. Series 3 will retain the ability to tune analog OTA channels and Series 2 will retain the ability to control satellite receivers. The plan is entirely logical, but also is completely arbitrary.

[kb7oeb]

I think in 5 years the analog channel count on cable will be half of what it is today. Cable needs more bandwidth and analog wastes it.

[megazone]

I think in 5 years the analog channel count on cable will be half of what it is today. Cable needs more bandwidth and analog wastes it.
Indeed. USA Today has an article on this today. (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/services/2006-06-04-cable-hdtv_x.htm) Basically the two options cable companies are eyeing for HD is killing analog cable to free bandwidth - each analog channel is about 10 digital SD or 3 digital HD channerls, or moving to Switched Digitial. The former works with today's CableCARD, switched digital will not - it would require the oft-delayed CableCARD 2.0 for bidirectional communication.

[Adam1115]

Well, if the current TiVo is not a DT, they could just go ahead and use it. Or if they have a need to record OTA and don't yet have a TiVo get a non-DT (or two) instead of the DT.

The DT is a device designed specifically with the analog cable market in mind. It is optimized for analog cable, and compromises were made in other areas to make it work at a price that (hopefully) makes it attractive to the market (analog cable) TiVo was designing it for. Who should look into getting a DT? Analog cable customers. Who should look at the other options TiVo provides (ST S2, DirecTiVo, and S3 when available)? Non-analog cable customers (Sat, Digital Cable, and OTA users).


UGH! :rolleyes:

We're not TALKING about NTSC OTA, We're talking about ATSC OTA, which NEITHER the Series2 or the DT will do without rigging it to think it's a satellite receiver.

WHAT THE HELL does it being a DT have to do with an ATSC OTA STB???

What is wrong with an analog customer using ATSC OTA in addition to analog cable? I'm so sick of people telling EVERYONE who wants to watch crystal clear OTA broadcasts for free they need to buy an HD Series3 when it comes out. Many people don't want or need HD, but still want to record their OTA ATSC broadcasts. The point is, the TiVo can already do this but it must be RIGGED to think the OTA STB is a sat box. They should just support it...

[megazone]

Again, it comes down to ROI. Is there enough Return On Investment for them to spend the money adding spport for the OTA ATSC receivers, and supporting that market going forward? It isn't a one time cost for TiVo. Also weighed into that, would it have any negative impact on sales of their premium product, the S3?

I'm not saying I don't think they should do it, or that they should really, just that it isn't a purely technical question. On the technical side I believe it is totally possible to do it.

[mattack]

What I posted in post #27 was that tuners in millions of CRT TV's will no longer work. Even if cable companies continue to provide analog basic cable services, and they certainly aren't required to, that statement remains accurate.

No, it doesn't remain accurate. The *TUNER* in the TV is still being used for the analog channels over cable.

If cable gets rid of the analog signal entirely, THEN your statements are correct.

[TiVo Troll]

What I posted in post #27 was that tuners in millions of CRT TV's will no longer work. Even if cable companies continue to provide analog basic cable services, and they certainly aren't required to, that statement remains accurate.

No, it doesn't remain accurate. The *TUNER* in the TV is still being used for the analog channels over cable.

If cable gets rid of the analog signal entirely, THEN your statements are correct.

(This is the kind of exchange which rapidly devolves into "flaming" on un-moderated Forums.)

I posted in post #29 that there are approx. 20 million OTA only TV households in which analog TV's tuners will no longer work at all after TV goes digital in early 2009, as now scheduled. Period. Exclamation point! Without any qualifications and regardless of whatever cable companies may do! That's what the statement; "Even if cable companies continue to provide analog basic cable services, and they certainly aren't required to, that statement remains accurate." refers to.

But, as the excellent article (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/services/2006-06-04-cable-hdtv_x.htm) in megazone's post #31 points out, cable companies really want to convert to an all digital format to best utilize their available bandwith. It's unlikely that all analog cable services will disappear right away but it's an absolute certainty that some will.

Whenever a cable box is required, it either circumvents a TV's internal tuner or relegates the tuner to tuning only one channel and using it as just another input. So, in addition to millions of OTA homes with TV's using analog tuners which will no longer work there will be many additional cable households in which existing TV tuners are either going to be completely non-functional or will be practically non-functional because they will only be able to "tune" one channel.