Is Tivo moving away from satellite receiver support?

[klapidus]

Ok, I've got two series 2 Tivos and I subscribe to DirecTV. With the release of the new dual tuner Tivo, it appears to me that Tivo is favoring cable subscribers. Actually, it even says that it is optimized for cable users on the tivo.com web site. Well, I guess I'm fine with that, but what about when the Tivo Series 3 comes out? I don't currently have HD through DirecTV, but I can if I want to. Lets say I decide to make the leap to HD DirecTV, I noticed that the Tivo Series 3 has two RF inputs which means I will not be able to record HD from DirecTV. Does anyone think that Tivo will release a satellite version of the series 3 or is Tivo just giving up on satellite customers?

[rainwater]

With the move the digital, there's no easy way for any device to work with satellite as there is no standard. Luckily cable has cable card standard that gets them into digital cable. So going forward, the only way for TiVo to get into satellite users homes is through deals that let them provide their software to the companies.

[Olde Fortran]

An HD TiVo for DirecTV has been around for ages. Cable is only starting to catch up. And it's not so much who TiVo is moving towards but who is moving towards TiVo. They got a DirecTV deal and did some good things with them. Now that relation doesn't look as strong. They've got something going on with Comcast but I haven't heard much lately.

[jfh3]

Ok, I've got two series 2 Tivos and I subscribe to DirecTV. With the release of the new dual tuner Tivo, it appears to me that Tivo is favoring cable subscribers. Actually, it even says that it is optimized for cable users on the tivo.com web site. Well, I guess I'm fine with that, but what about when the Tivo Series 3 comes out? I don't currently have HD through DirecTV, but I can if I want to. Lets say I decide to make the leap to HD DirecTV, I noticed that the Tivo Series 3 has two RF inputs which means I will not be able to record HD from DirecTV. Does anyone think that Tivo will release a satellite version of the series 3 or is Tivo just giving up on satellite customers?

Tivo favors paying subscribers.

Tivo can't develop/market a satellite-based box without consent from DTV or Echostar.

It's DirecTV that's decided not to favor Tivo.
Your best option with DirecTV is a DirecTivo or an HR10-250 (for high def). A year or two behind on features, but both have dual tuner support.

Sat customers can still use the Series 2 boxes as they always have.

But unless DirecTV comes to their senses (or Echostar decides to settle), it's unlikely we'll see updated sat-based Tivo boxes.

[Olde Fortran]

And thats fine if you want to go with cable. I personally hate the choices my cable company offers as well as the cost involved. I've been very happy with DirecTV.

If you're happy with them, then stick with them. I don't like my local cable company much either and a PVR isn't going to make me change content providers. TiVo is cool but the tail is not going to wag the dog in my house.

[klapidus]

With the move the digital, there's no easy way for any device to work with satellite as there is no standard. Luckily cable has cable card standard that gets them into digital cable. So going forward, the only way for TiVo to get into satellite users homes is through deals that let them provide their software to the companies.

And thats fine if you want to go with cable. I personally hate the choices my cable company offers as well as the cost involved. I've been very happy with DirecTV.

[klapidus]

Tivo favors paying subscribers.

Tivo can't develop/market a satellite-based box without consent from DTV or Echostar.

It's DirecTV that's decided not to favor Tivo.
Your best option with DirecTV is a DirecTivo or an HR10-250 (for high def). A year or two behind on features, but both have dual tuner support.

Sat customers can still use the Series 2 boxes as they always have.

But unless DirecTV comes to their senses (or Echostar decides to settle), it's unlikely we'll see updated sat-based Tivo boxes.

I have to say that really sucks! I really love my Tivo and would hate to have to ditch my satellite just to be able to record HD when the series 3 comes out. Oh well, I guess I will wait till I'm forced to move to HD....

[ADent]

Write your Congressman. The FCC rules for a CableCard (ie Series 3) apply to satellite, but then the waived it as impractical.

Since both sat providers now provide all their own boxes the CableCard waiver exemption should be lifted from them.

[classicsat]

If satellite could provide universal access devices, then the S3 would need redesigned to accomodate satellite tuners, at extra cost. Until then, the S3 won't support satellite because it is technically impossible due to circumstances beyond TiVo's control, to build a box that is expensive enough.

The new Series 2 boxes do support satellite SD fine, and will likely for a while

[Adam1115]

Write your Congressman. The FCC rules for a CableCard (ie Series 3) apply to satellite, but then the waived it as impractical.

Since both sat providers now provide all their own boxes the CableCard waiver exemption should be lifted from them.

That's insane. How could Satellite possibly support cablecard without a STB?? A satellite signal is COMPLETELY different than a cable signal, which has ALL channels available on coax vs. the STB requesting certain transponders and frequencies.

The ONLY way it would work is having a STB that outputs the signal in a way that a cablecard could read it. This would be totally unfair, as the cablecard was designed to work with current cable technology, vs. satellite having to engineer a STB just for this purpose.

It IS completely impractical.

Also, DirecTV and Dish Network use totally different technologies. For a 'universal access card' to work, it would have NOT be universal! Dish is DVB, and directv is not, so it would either have to support BOTH, or one company would have to re-engineer their entire system.

As far as decryption goes, there is an inherient benefit to cable, in that the cable has to be connected to the system. People in Canada or Mexico can't tap into Comcasts signal, hack it, and distribute it. With Satellite, opening up the decryption to vendors would definitely create a security problem for the providers and is totally unreasonable. (Asside from the fact that DirecTV's encryption is proprietary and shouldn't be required to divulge it to the world in order to create a standard...)

[wtb]

Also, DirecTV and Dish Network use totally different technologies.

I'm not an expert in the technologies used on the satellites, but my understanding is that they both down convert the signals to the 950 to 1450 MHz band. So all the receiver has to do is demodulate the data and reformate it. You could probably do it with a single card that could handle both formats. It's probably not that difficult, but there's probably not enough of a market to justify the design expense.

[ZeoTiVo]

Yep, like ADent and others have said - Satellite is very closed. only their boxes can access the digital bytestream.


so as I said in a differetn thread - the subject line is stated backwards

Satellite broadcasters are moving away from 3rd party DVRs.


that is their current legal right and it fits their current business plans so only lifting that waiver will cause any movement toward an open standard access like cable card provides on Cable systems.

[mattack]

Ok, I've got two series 2 Tivos and I subscribe to DirecTV. With the release of the new dual tuner Tivo...

Unless you needed to be able to _watch_ two different shows in two different locations simultaneously... Why did you do this instead of getting a DirecTivo years and years and years and years ago, which would have given you dual tuners and a lower fee?

[kb7oeb]

Its not so much a technical problem, when Dish and Directv were trying to merge the RCA receivers directv sold could be converted to dishnetwork with a firmware change. I've read hackers have been able to pirate dish using modified directv boxes.

Its all legal, Dish and directv aren't required to open up access so they don't, they aren't required to offer 1394 so they don't. Dish went as far as having 1394 ports on an early model only to remove them. They even once demoed a simple receiver with only 1394 ports for TVs with 1394 ports. If cable wasn't required to open up they wouldn't. They are trying hard to make cable card fail.

[classicsat]

That's insane. How could Satellite possibly support cablecard without a STB?? A satellite signal is COMPLETELY different than a cable signal, which has ALL channels available on coax vs. the STB requesting certain transponders and frequencies.


A: A device that plugs into the CC slot that has a satellite tuner dongle.

B: Having an onboard satellite tuner.


The ONLY way it would work is having a STB that outputs the signal in a way that a cablecard could read it. This would be totally unfair, as the cablecard was designed to work with current cable technology, vs. satellite having to engineer a STB just for this purpose. It IS completely impractical.


CC is NOT a tuner. That said, they could remodulate to ATSC or QAM, and tune that with whatever. If needed have a back end CC for copy protection, or have an HDCP over QAM DRM.


Also, DirecTV and Dish Network use totally different technologies. For a 'universal access card' to work, it would have NOT be universal! Dish is DVB, and directv is not, so it would either have to support BOTH, or one company would have to re-engineer their entire system.

DirecTV is close enough to DVB. You just need an in-use programmable universal chipset.

[/quote]
As far as decryption goes, there is an inherient benefit to cable, in that the cable has to be connected to the system. People in Canada or Mexico can't tap into Comcasts signal, hack it, and distribute it. With Satellite, opening up the decryption to vendors would definitely create a security problem for the providers and is totally unreasonable. (Asside from the fact that DirecTV's encryption is proprietary and shouldn't be required to divulge it to the world in order to create a standard...)[/QUOTE]

That whole is there with the smartcard the satellite companies use.

Nobody has to divulge security secrets, that is the purpose of the Conditial Access Module (which the CC really is).

[Stanley Rohner]

With the move the digital, there's no easy way for any device to work with satellite as there is no standard.

Huh? move to digital....

DIRECTV was 100 % digital picture and sound about 10 years before cable tv was.

The intergrated DIRECTV receiver/TiVo DVR was out the same time the TiVo Series1 boxes were out.

The 2nd generation DIRECTV/TiVo boxes came out about 4 years ago.

The HDTV/DIRECTV/TiVo boxes came out about 1.5-2 years ago.

What's this you say about there being no easy way for any device to work with satellite ?

[gonzotek]

What's this you say about there being no easy way for any device to work with satellite ?...without the cooperation of the satellite companies. If TiVo never had a relationship with DirecTV, those integrated boxes would not have been possible.

[terryfoster]

The intergrated DIRECTV receiver/TiVo DVR was out the same time the TiVo Series1 boxes were out.

DirecTiVo came out well after the SA TiVo series 1.

[Adam1115]

A: A device that plugs into the CC slot that has a satellite tuner dongle.

B: Having an onboard satellite tuner.



CC is NOT a tuner. That said, they could remodulate to ATSC or QAM, and tune that with whatever. If needed have a back end CC for copy protection, or have an HDCP over QAM DRM.


DirecTV is close enough to DVB. You just need an in-use programmable universal chipset.

As far as decryption goes, there is an inherient benefit to cable, in that the cable has to be connected to the system. People in Canada or Mexico can't tap into Comcasts signal, hack it, and distribute it. With Satellite, opening up the decryption to vendors would definitely create a security problem for the providers and is totally unreasonable. (Asside from the fact that DirecTV's encryption is proprietary and shouldn't be required to divulge it to the world in order to create a standard...)

That whole is there with the smartcard the satellite companies use.

Nobody has to divulge security secrets, that is the purpose of the Conditial Access Module (which the CC really is).

First, your redesigning the 'cablecard' system. Cablecard TV's are already out, and DON'T have satellite tuners. Same with the Series 3. So simply saying make dish and directv support cablecard is completely impossible without a STB, which defeats the point of cablecard.

Second, you're saying it's practical to include satellite tuners in all CableCard TV's and DVR's in addition to cable, QAM, and ATSC tuners? Then have direcTV and dish change over their ENTIRE CAS system to support cablecard?

Huh... :confused:

[Stanley Rohner]

DirecTiVo came out well after the SA TiVo series 1.

The first infomercial I saw for TiVo in 2001 or so was demonstrating the Series1 standalone TiVo and the Series1 dual tuner DIRECTV/TiVos for DIRECTV customers. At the time the infomercial aired the software hadn't be released to utilize the 2 tuners.

[Dan203]

The first SA TiVo was released in March of 1999. The first DirecTiVo was released in November of 2000. The software update to enable dual tuners wasn't released until the summer of 2001.

Dan

[jmoak]

The first sa tivo shipped on March 31st, 1999. (first Tivo "Blue Moon")
The first directv tivo appeared on store shelves on October 5th, 2000 (http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?threadid=34262).

...and why do people still think that just anybody can decide to manufacture and sell an ird for a closed system????? Is anyone fussing at sony for no longer making directv receivers????:confused:

OOPS!!!
I smeeked!!!!
:o

[bidger]

I'm surprised Dan, your timeline for the D-TiVos is, as jmoak points out, about a year late. I bought my first D-TiVo in March 2001 and the dual tuners were enabled. that Summer

[Dan203]

You're right I screwed it up by a year. :o

Post edited.

Dan

[ashu]

First, your redesigning the 'cablecard' system. Cablecard TV's are already out, and DON'T have satellite tuners. Same with the Series 3. So simply saying make dish and directv support cablecard is completely impossible without a STB, which defeats the point of cablecard.

Second, you're saying it's practical to include satellite tuners in all CableCard TV's and DVR's in addition to cable, QAM, and ATSC tuners? Then have direcTV and dish change over their ENTIRE CAS system to support cablecard?

Huh... :confused:

You realize that technical difficulties have NOTHING to do with this, right? Satellite companies want to retain control (for business reasons, more power to them) over the hardware used. If the FCC controlled them, they'd be singing the same tune cable companies have now been forced to.

[Adam1115]

You realize that technical difficulties have NOTHING to do with this, right? Satellite companies want to retain control (for business reasons, more power to them) over the hardware used. If the FCC controlled them, they'd be singing the same tune cable companies have now been forced to.

Technical difficulties have EVERYTHING to do with this. We're not talking about what SATELLITE companies want, we're discussing having the government MANDATE cablecard support, which would be impossible.

[Dan203]

I wonder if it would be possible for DirecTV and Dish to design some sort of modulator that could tune all the available DSS channels and map them to QAM so that devices designed for CableCARD could work? Doesn't FIOS work using a system similar to this? If not I'm sure it could be done once CableCARD 2.0 is available using the bidirectional communication portion of the spec to communicate with an external box.

As Adam said that's the only way DirecTV and Dish could ever work with CableCARD because current CableCARD devices do not have DSS tuners.

Dan

[atmuscarella]

I think some of what has been said about cable cards and satellite is somewhat missing leading.

The way I read the law that the FCC is supposed to be enforcing, is that cable and satellite providers where required to have a universal decryption process that would allow third party non proprietary STBs and other devices (TVs, etc.) that would be able to build in tuners and use the universal decryption process to decrypt the signals. The fact that the FCC is not enforcing this law has been and is the problem.

What you have to remember about encryption/decryption for digital signals is that it is nothing more than software, a "cable card" is a universal device to deliver this software to the STB/devise with a turner, this would be no different for satellite or cable.

There are already satellite receivers that accept various "cable cards" to decrypt different types of encryption being used in other countries. The only reason Direct TV and Dishnetwork are not providing "cable cards" is because they convinced the FCC to exempt them for doing it.

My parents have 10 year Dish STBs that have gone through several different types of encryption when Dish changed encryptions they sent them new cards.

Currently Direct is using in house encryption/decryption and Dish is using Nagra2 encryption/decryption (which is hacked and is basically worthless).

So why can’t TiVo build a STB with a satellite tuner in it with a universal “cable card” slot that works with a dish Nagra2 decryption card? Simple because Dish will not send the owner of the STB a Nagra2 decryption card and activate it to work with a non-dish STB. If the FCC required them to do so the process would be no different than activating a Nagra2 decryption card in one of their own STBs (the card is activated through the satellite single and married to the STB).

And for all of you that no nothing about digital satellite receivers you can buy a basic digital satellite receiver for $100-150 that can receive signals from dozen of satellites broadcasting digital signals and you can view the signals from any of the channels that have not been encrypted, the tuner is universal just like a cable tuner.

Thanks,

atmuscarella

[classicsat]

First, your redesigning the 'cablecard' system. Cablecard TV's are already out, and DON'T have satellite tuners.

Nope. I'm just devising a way to get and HD stream from the likes of an external satellite tuner into an existing CC/QAM tuner thelikes of the S3, without compromising content security.

Same with the Series 3. So simply saying make dish and directv support cablecard is completely impossible without a STB, which defeats the point of cablecard.

Which is what I've been saying all along.

Second, you're saying it's practical to include satellite tuners in all CableCard TV's and DVR's in addition to cable, QAM, and ATSC tuners? Then have direcTV and dish change over their ENTIRE CAS system to support cablecard?

Huh... :confused:

Not necessarily. From a technological standpoint, it might be.

From an economic standpoint, it might be a different story. This is assuming the SatCos will welcome the likes of a standard access module.

[classicsat]

I wonder if it would be possible for DirecTV and Dish to design some sort of modulator that could tune all the available DSS channels and map them to QAM so that devices designed for CableCARD could work?

Yes, but it would be costly. Cheaper would be a system that on an as needed per transponder basis, trascoded from QPSK/8PSK to QAM, kind of like SDV, rather than all the transponders at once.


Doesn't FIOS work using a system similar to this? If not I'm sure it could be done once CableCARD 2.0 is available using the bidirectional communication portion of the spec to communicate with an external box.


I don't know or sure. I thought it did, but could be wrong.

[ashu]

In layman's terms (for Adam!), this makes it quite clear that technical difficulties have less to do with the SatCos reluctance (to support Cable Card) than a concern for the bottom-line does ;)

Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that. And no, I'm not all for a government that controls and dictates everything. But the consumer would certainly benefit from this, and (cable/Sat) companies could no longer get away with requiring contratcs and then providing sub-par service :)

Not all standardization should need a peanut-gallery outcry!