DirecTV using MPEG4 channels yet?

[Fleegle]

I noticed that DirecTV had rolled out Phoenix local HD channels now. how can I find out if these are MPEG4 or MPEG2?

[tryptoneCRG]

I noticed that DirecTV had rolled out Phoenix local HD channels now. how can I find out if these are MPEG4 or MPEG2?
ALL Hd locals from D* are MPEG-4 with the exception of NY and LA

[Fleegle]

So the HR10-250s will not record the locals from the satellite? That's the stupidest thing I've heard yet!

[HomieG]

So the HR10-250s will not record the locals from the satellite? That's the stupidest thing I've heard yet!

Actually, it may not be. According to other posts, DirecTV is compressing their MPEG-4 HD locals quite a bit. Using the HR10-250, you can record them OTA and get much better quality. Besides, I thought you were asking about MPEG-4. AFAIK, the HR10-250 is not an MPEG-4 TiVo.

[Fleegle]

Actually, it may not be. According to other posts, DirecTV is compressing their MPEG-4 HD locals quite a bit. Using the HR10-250, you can record them OTA and get much better quality. Besides, I thought you were asking about MPEG-4. AFAIK, the HR10-250 is not an MPEG-4 TiVo.


Right. I was trying to find out if the 250 would record my locals over the satellite. I don't have an OTA antenna and I was trying to avoid buying one.

Edit: Are they going to be shifting to MPEG-4 for the other non-local HDTV channels? IOW, do I hve to worry about an HR10-250 not working with, say HBO-HD or HDNet?

[rminsk]

Right. I was trying to find out if the 250 would record my locals over the satellite. I don't have an OTA antenna and I was trying to avoid buying one.The OTA antenna will most of the time have a less compressed picture than DirecTV. DirecTV recompressed the signals.

[phox_mulder]

Edit: Are they going to be shifting to MPEG-4 for the other non-local HDTV channels? IOW, do I hve to worry about an HR10-250 not working with, say HBO-HD or HDNet?

Consensus is that they will remain where they are for quite some time.

Future adds may or may not be MPEG4 (SCI-FI HD for example) when and if they add an major HD networks.

I for one am hoping they do it in MPEG2 and leave MPEG4 for the HD locals.


phox

[bidger]

Fleegle, I have a friend in Mesa who, when I plugged in his address at www.antennaweb.org, is able to pick up every broadcast networks' digital feed using an indoor powered antenna. You might want to plug your address in and see what's available. I'd rather pay ~$25 in a one-time fee for an antenna than to have to pay monthly for channels I could get for free. I just wish I was in that situation. I can't get clear feeds of CBS, FOX, or PBS.

[Fleegle]

Fleegle, I have a friend in Mesa who, when I plugged in his address at www.antennaweb.org, is able to pick up every broadcast networks' digital feed using an indoor powered antenna. You might want to plug your address in and see what's available. I'd rather pay ~$25 in a one-time fee for an antenna than to have to pay monthly for channels I could get for free. I just wish I was in that situation. I can't get clear feeds of CBS, FOX, or PBS.

Interesting site. According to that, it says the"small milti-directional" antennas should give me access to all of the digital channels. They all show "yellow". Anyone have a link to a decent looking small antenna that should work?

[bidger]

If you're open to online shopping, I've seen a lot of people reference this (http://www.antennasdirect.com/) site. For the small multi-directional, you should have a lot of options, like your local electronics stores.

[super dave]

Interesting site. According to that, it says the"small milti-directional" antennas should give me access to all of the digital channels. They all show "yellow". Anyone have a link to a decent looking small antenna that should work?
If you want to try without hassling much try this (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Terk-Antenna-TV5-/sem/rpsm/oid/54455/catOid/-15609/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) indoor antenna from Terk. I use the directional one, as my locals are all on the same tower. I tried an indoor because I didn't want to run cabling down from the attic, and I can't decide what I am going to do once Comcast has the TiVo box out this July. Their HD is way better, but they still are Comcast :o .

[hancox]

Actually, it may not be. According to other posts, DirecTV is compressing their MPEG-4 HD locals quite a bit. Using the HR10-250, you can record them OTA and get much better quality. Besides, I thought you were asking about MPEG-4. AFAIK, the HR10-250 is not an MPEG-4 TiVo.


FUD. "compressing their MPEG-4HD locals quite a bit" is a nice play on words. Of course they are, that's the idea. The rub is whether or not this newer compression (yes, at higher levels) degrades PQ. The vast majority of posts I've seen on it say it doesn't.

[Fleegle]

FUD. "compressing their MPEG-4HD locals quite a bit" is a nice play on words. Of course they are, that's the idea. The rub is whether or not this newer compression (yes, at higher levels) degrades PQ. The vast majority of posts I've seen on it say it doesn't.


But that really doesn't matter since the HR10-250 won't even acept the MPEG4 signals. This is a mute point.

You know, like it can't talk... ;)

[fjwagner]

Interesting site. According to that, it says the"small milti-directional" antennas should give me access to all of the digital channels. They all show "yellow". Anyone have a link to a decent looking small antenna that should work?

Antennasdirect.com are great to work with. You need to look at the channel listing to determine if the digital broadcasts are all UHF or if they are using a few VHF bands. UHF is 14 and over I believe. That will also be a factor in your antenna selection. The DB2 and 4 are really good antennas for uhf. I had to get my Dad a directional UHF/VHF for Tulsa since he had one local on a high VHF frequency.


On another note, channel 6 may broadcast their digital on 35, but on your tuner it will show up as 6.1. A signal is sent to your box that tells it what number to use. Fred

[TyroneShoes]

...The rub is whether or not this newer compression (yes, at higher levels) degrades PQ. The vast majority of posts I've seen on it say it doesn't. And that is a great question, does it or doesn't it?

There is absolutely no question about whether the picture is "degraded", if you look at it from the point of view of how faithfully it represents the original signal as they receive it, pixel for pixel. But there is certainly a question about whether this contributes to any perception of degradation, which is of course what really matters. It might, and it might not, depending upon the amount and the discerning scrutiny of the viewer. IOW, objectively it is without question less-faithful to the original image, while subjectively, it may not be, and subjectively is really the final arbiter. The only real conclusion that can be drawn is that whatever DTV does and however benign that may be, in no way does it improve the situation.

There is a quantifiable degradation for any image that is actually originally sharper than the 1280x1080 resolution used by DTV, manifesting as a softer image than normal. Of course the original image has to actually be that sharp for it to make a visible difference (most aren't), your display has to be of higher resolution than 1280 in the horizontal dimension (many aren't), you must be sitting no further than 3.3 picture heights away, you must have 20/20 vision, and you must be paying attention, and looking directly at a part of the screen that is affected (only sharp edges or patterns matter, perceptually speaking). Otherwise, there can be no discernable difference, even if there is a quantifiable one.

There is also quantifiable artifacting on extreme motion. During periods of no motion or less-extreme motion, there is no difference. But the difference is slight enough for folks to not typically see it, meaning once again that it may not matter. There is empirical evidence, but it is only really noticeable in screen captures.

And, there is the, some would claim, quantifiable laws of physics, which uphold the fact that you can't recompress with a disimilar algorithm (from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4, in this case) without introducing rounding errors that manifest as potentially visible artifacts, this time on both motion and still images. This means that MPEG-4 from DTV can't possibly have fewer artifacts than the original MPEG-2, and there is absolutely no physical way to avoid that. But once again, it may not introduce enough artifacting to be noticeable. In fact, some feel that the definition of "artifacting" must include a difference obvious enough to be seen to even be considered artifacting.

[Runch Machine]

If you want to try without hassling much try this (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Terk-Antenna-TV5-/sem/rpsm/oid/54455/catOid/-15609/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) indoor antenna from Terk. I use the directional one, as my locals are all on the same tower. I tried an indoor because I didn't want to run cabling down from the attic, and I can't decide what I am going to do once Comcast has the TiVo box out this July. Their HD is way better, but they still are Comcast :o .

Actually, a much better antenna is the Terk HDTVi. It has a lot more gain and will provide a more reliable signal. They are available at Circuit City for $40. You can return it if it doesn't do the job. The Terk TV5 is little better than a coat hanger or a Bowtie UHF antenna that sells for $3 at Radio Shack.

[Fireaxe]

There is also quantifiable artifacting on extreme motion. During periods of no motion or less-extreme motion, there is no difference. But the difference is slight enough for folks to not typically see it, meaning once again that it may not matter. There is empirical evidence, but it is only really noticeable in screen captures.

To the suits at DirecTV there are only three equations that have any meaning:
Bandwidth = Money
More Channels squeezed out of existing bandwidth = More Money.
Quality of resulting image = Don't bother us, we're counting our Money.

As an engineer I could bore everybody to death explaining MPEG 4's variable compression algorithm, but basically you tell the encoder how much detail you want to throw away. Look in the dark areas of the picture and behold the lack of grey scale definition. Also behold the bountiful grey pixels that sparkle and dance for your amusement.

This is how DirecTV converts High Def 1080i into wide screen NTSC. Don't get me wrong. After waiting since 1984 for HDTV (NHK's "MUSE" uncompressed analog HD) I'm all for anything that gets folks to move up to HDTV and away from OTA NTSC.

When I'm asked "how can I make those dancing pixes go away?"
I simply tell them to move their couch back until the pixels blend together and enjoy the show.

I just realized that I didn't address your well informed, outstanding post about artifacting. You are right on target about perception. Even in the digital domain the old saw is true, "when you pass a signal through any electronic circuit, no matter how high frequency, the signal will be degraded."

If the viewer doesn't see the noise, or if they don't care, way too good.

Image acquisition is the most important phase of any production. Once the image is recorded (film, video, still photos) it will never get any better. No matter what magic box you pipe the data through, errors are introduced and the image suffers. In the digital domain you pile up the bit errors. In analog, just think about making a copy of a copy of a VHS tape.

The engineers at DirecTV would love to send out a signal with little to no compression. The suits (who sign their paychecks) demand that the compressor be set two stops above maximum.

The suits always win.

-Rob
SBE, CBNT, and a few more letters nobody gives a rip about.

[Nuwanda]

Hey all you out there looking for an OTA ntenna.

Do not buy TERK. My own personal experience is they are CRAP! Like fjwagner said, the choice of antenna depends as much on your locals channels as anything else. I for example tried two different TERK antennas (one indoor and one outdoor) before buying a ChannelMaster 4228 which actually receives all my channels except the NBC affiliate (not yet transmitting at full digital power). Before you buy an antenna, go research at one of the following sites:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/
http://www.winegard.com/offair/offairmain.htm
http://www.hdtvpub.com/local/localarea.cfm
http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx
http://www.channelmaster.com/home.htm

Do some research, not all antennas are the same. And two that look pretty similar can have drasticly different performance ratings.

Nuwanda

[MichaelK]

To the suits at DirecTV there are only three equations that have any meaning:
Bandwidth = Money
More Channels squeezed out of existing bandwidth = More Money.
Quality of resulting image = Don't bother us, we're counting our Money.

As an engineer I could bore everybody to death explaining MPEG 4's variable compression algorithm, but basically you tell the encoder how much detail you want to throw away. Look in the dark areas of the picture and behold the lack of grey scale definition. Also behold the bountiful grey pixels that sparkle and dance for your amusement.

This is how DirecTV converts High Def 1080i into wide screen NTSC. Don't get me wrong. After waiting since 1984 for HDTV (NHK's "MUSE" uncompressed analog HD) I'm all for anything that gets folks to move up to HDTV and away from OTA NTSC.

When I'm asked "how can I make those dancing pixes go away?"
I simply tell them to move their couch back until the pixels blend together and enjoy the show.

I just realized that I didn't address your well informed, outstanding post about artifacting. You are right on target about perception. Even in the digital domain the old saw is true, "when you pass a signal through any electronic circuit, no matter how high frequency, the signal will be degraded."

If the viewer doesn't see the noise, or if they don't care, way too good.

Image acquisition is the most important phase of any production. Once the image is recorded (film, video, still photos) it will never get any better. No matter what magic box you pipe the data through, errors are introduced and the image suffers. In the digital domain you pile up the bit errors. In analog, just think about making a copy of a copy of a VHS tape.

The engineers at DirecTV would love to send out a signal with little to no compression. The suits (who sign their paychecks) demand that the compressor be set two stops above maximum.

The suits always win.

-Rob
SBE, CBNT, and a few more letters nobody gives a rip about.


I agree in general, and have pretty much made up my mind to leave DirecTV as soon as the Series 3 is available- so I’m no DirecTV shill.

But CURRENTLY they are slow as molasses to fill their Ka satellites- because of that they have only a small fraction of the potential channels on the things. As such I believe the people that say CURRENTLY that their perception of the picture on the recompressed MPEG4 is essentially indiscernible to the OTA. There is just no reason for them to skimp (NOW) - they could probably have the MP4 encoders re-encode the 19.2 MP2 OTA streams to 40 and still not even come close to filling the birds. Even with the next 14 markets announced for later this year I think they are still wont even have filled those birds half way. It looks like there is no chance of them filling the current 2 birds before DirecTV 10 or 11 goes up. The first of those to go up will double their LIL capacity and add room for 75 national HD channels, it since it will take over a year to fill the current 500LIL spots, it likely will take another year to fill the next 500 LIL slots and then you still have DirecTV 11. So it could be something like 2009 before they finally fill the 1500 LIL channels onto the KA birds. It seems they aren’t in any hurry to add any national HD channels either since they don’t even carry the fox ngc channel in HD yet. The way they are moving so slow it likely will be years before they will their Ka birds to the point they need to make compromises.

[ayrton911]

Do you guys think DirecTV will ever have more national HD channels in MPEG2, or will anything added in the future be MPEG4? I want to keep using my TiVo as long as possible.

[Fleegle]

Well, Antennaweb shows that all of the stations are about 12 miles away and all in the yellow zone which indicates a small omnidirectional antenna. I'm fairly certain that I don't need anything too expensive...

[Chandler Mike]

Interesting site. According to that, it says the"small milti-directional" antennas should give me access to all of the digital channels. They all show "yellow". Anyone have a link to a decent looking small antenna that should work?


I live in SE Chandler, and I have an antenna on the roof and the reception is crystal clear.

However, my neighbor had an indoor one for awhile, and it sucked...so be wary that an indoor one, depending on how far away you live from South Mountain, may not be the best.

[super dave]

If you want to try without hassling much try this (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Terk-Antenna-TV5-/sem/rpsm/oid/54455/catOid/-15609/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) indoor antenna from Terk. I use the directional one, as my locals are all on the same tower. I tried an indoor because I didn't want to run cabling down from the attic, and I can't decide what I am going to do once Comcast has the TiVo box out this July. Their HD is way better, but they still are Comcast :o .
I just quoted myself again if you are intersted in an indoor antenna. These work great. I am 14 miles from the tower and pull in a signal strength of 98 on all channels with a directional indoor antenna.

[bbodin]

FUD. "compressing their MPEG-4HD locals quite a bit" is a nice play on words. Of course they are, that's the idea. The rub is whether or not this newer compression (yes, at higher levels) degrades PQ. The vast majority of posts I've seen on it say it doesn't.

exactly. I've read ton of posts by the experienced videophiles on avsforum (including Ken himself) who've done A/B comparisons of OTA and the MPEG4 locals from D* and almost all notice no difference in quality.

This isn't like the Mpeg2 which they are compressing to save bandwidth...with MPEG4 they have the bandwidth to not have to squeeze resolutions and bitrate. It's not saying in the future they might choose to squeeze us like they are with Mpeg2 today, but there's no real reason for them to given the available bandwidth with MPEG4.

But to the original poster, yes, your HD tivo cannot ever record MPEG4. IF D* moves completely to MPEG4, then your HD tivo becomes an OTA tivo. The reality is that is a long time away.

[Fleegle]

So, if I leave DirecTV, will the TiVo still function as an OTA HD TiVo?

[rminsk]

This isn't like the Mpeg2 which they are compressing to save bandwidth...with MPEG4 they have the bandwidth to not have to squeeze resolutions and bitrate.I'm not sure what you mean by this. Bandwidth is determined by the satellite transponders. How does mpeg4 change the available bandwidth?

[hancox]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Bandwidth is determined by the satellite transponders. How does mpeg4 change the available bandwidth?


...because an "equivalent quality" HD signal at MPEG4 should take less bandwidth, compared to an MPEG2 signal.

[reh523]

So, if I leave DirecTV, will the TiVo still function as an OTA HD TiVo?


In a word no.... You could not record through the guide (no direct tv no guide). But you could watch hd with it....

As far as antennas go. I have tried a lot of them. I am 17 miles from the towers in Avondale with a direct line of site. Indoors I had little luck. Attic cuts down signal strength close to 50 percent. So two weeks ago I went with this http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm
24 bucks and a easy install (12 bucks shipping). Best one hands down for my location. I mounted it under a eave on the roof and painted it same color as the house. But I am in OTA HD for the long haul so I wanted something that would work and last... YMMV Antennas are hit and miss. Try the CC one if it doesn't work take it back and put up a real antenna. Be warned the one I got is non returnable.

Good luck to you. You will love OTA HD it is worth the effort. D Backs on HD Cardinals coming and PBS......

[TyroneShoes]

Interesting site. According to that, it says the"small milti-directional" antennas should give me access to all of the digital channels. They all show "yellow". Anyone have a link to a decent looking small antenna that should work?
Yes, antennaweb.org is a great starting point to figure what's out there and what direction it is from you and how far away it might be. But their antenna advice is lacking, or at least too general. You have to take it with a grain of salt. Their recommendations seem to be for receiving both analog and DT, and for receiving all stations (DT viewers are usually just interested in the big 7). Disregard information for other stations, and the antenna recommendation might be very different.

What they also fail to take into account is that one size does not fit all. What I mean by that is that recommending a non-directional antenna for DT (which has quite different reception aspects than analog NTSC) is sort of like shooting yourself in the foot. The entire strategy for DT reception is to maiximize the ratio of desired to undesired signal, whether that undesired signal is multipath interference (the biggest culprit), FM or other interference, or just plain thermal noise. One of the best ways to minimize multipath interference is to avoid omni or medium-directional antennae like the plague. For DT, no matter what your reception scenario, you want the most-directional antenna you can get, period. This is the only way to maximize that ratio.

For indoor antennae, the one folks seem to have the best luck with is the Zenith Silver Sensor, which seems to have good off-angle rejection due to its swept-wing design. The Winegard Sharpshooter is also pretty good. Folks have had good luck with them in their attics, too. The antenna that seems to be the best choice for Phoenix (due to the frequencies of interest in a common direction) would have to be the Channel Master 4228/4221, which is also fairly inexpensive. But it is an outdoor/attic antenna.

[MichaelK]

So, if I leave DirecTV, will the TiVo still function as an OTA HD TiVo?

nope. If the HD Tio doesnt get permission from the satellites via the smartcard to operate then all DVR functions accept playback are shut down. You get left with a singel tuner with a 30 minute buffer with no ability to record if I rememebr the exact specifics.

[phox_mulder]

So, if I leave DirecTV, will the TiVo still function as an OTA HD TiVo?
nope. If the HD TiVo doesnt get permission from the satellites via the smartcard to operate then all DVR functions accept playback are shut down. You get left with a singel tuner with a 30 minute buffer with no ability to record if I rememebr the exact specifics.

You also don't have a guide to record from, the guide comes from the satellite.


phox

[vertigo235]

The TERK HDTVa, is just like the one above (HDTVi) but it has a built in pre-amp, it worked really good for me and my broadcast towers were 37 miles away. I had to get a bigger antenna because they were not all clustered together and the TERK required me to aim different directions for different channels.

I have my TERK on ebay right now, if someone is interested, but I'm not sure if I can post the link here or not.

I also tried the bowtie one (TV-5), and that one didn't receive anything for me. So that one is definetly CRAP.