Series2 DT and OTA

[bluedakar]

I apologize in advance if this is a thick-headed question (consider the source) but I have to ask:

Knowing the Series 2 DT does not have OTA tuners built in would it work if the input were from a High Definition Terrestrial Tuner?

I'm not sure if the output of the tuner would be analog or digital but if the guide data is available wouldn't the DT be able to control it via an ir blaster like it would a satellite box?

I'm just curious if this option was intentionally left out in the description of features or if it was just an oversight.

[gastrof]

I apologize in advance if this is a thick-headed question (consider the source) but I have to ask:

Knowing the Series 2 DT does not have OTA tuners built in would it work if the input were from a High Definition Terrestrial Tuner?

I'm not sure if the output of the tuner would be analog or digital but if the guide data is available wouldn't the DT be able to control it via an ir blaster like it would a satellite box?

I'm just curious if this option was intentionally left out in the description of features or if it was just an oversight.


When you say "DT" do you mean the dual tuner version of the series 2?

On amazon.com, the write up for the TCD649080 dual tuner TiVo says this...

"...Up to 80 hours of digital audio/video recording capacity (NTSC); works with antenna, cable, digital cable, satellite, and combinations..."

If you DID mean "dual tuner" (and not "DirecTiVo"), who is it that told you it has no over the air tuners? (And what did you think it'd be receiving and recording, anyway?)

[c3]

If you DID mean "dual tuner" (and not "DirecTiVo"), who is it that told you it has no over the air tuners? (And what did you think it'd be receiving and recording, anyway?)

Have you read any dual tuner threads? It does NOT work with over-the-air signal. Amazon's description is not correct.

[gastrof]

Have you read any dual tuner threads? It does NOT work with over-the-air signal. Amazon's description is not correct.


I didn't realize that.

VERY interesting. Sort of odd too, since over the air channels 2-13 are on exactly the same frequencies as the cable versions.

A lot of the higher analog cable numbers also are the same frequencies as differently numbered UHF channels too, so in that sense you should be able to tune both VHF and many UHF channels, if not all, anyway. (A friend who doesn't have cable got a used TV that was stuck on its "cable" setting, and he was still able to get our local UHF channels, tho' the numbers weren't right.)

Strange goings on.

[vman41]

A lot of the higher analog cable numbers also are the same frequencies as differently numbered UHF channels too, so in that sense you should be able to tune both VHF and many UHF channels, if not all, anyway. (A friend who doesn't have cable got a used TV that was stuck on its "cable" setting, and he was still able to get our local UHF channels, tho' the numbers weren't right.)

According to this channel frequencies (http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/cablech.html) table, the only exact overlap are channels 2-13. The closest to UHF channel 28 (555.25 MHz), for example, is cable channel 79 (553.25 MHz). That's apparently close enough for some tuner's AFC circuits to lock in a signal.

[gastrof]

According to this channel frequencies (http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/cablech.html) table, the only exact overlap are channels 2-13. The closest to UHF channel 28 (555.25 MHz), for example, is cable channel 79 (553.25 MHz). That's apparently close enough for some tuner's AFC circuits to lock in a signal.


Someone's messed up, then and it's not me.

I SAW his cable tuner get two, maybe three UHF channels.

I've done the opposite too, tuning in cable channels with my UHF tuner.

Here's the conversion-

UHF = cable

14 = (65)
15 = (66)
17 = (68)
18 = (69)
19 = (70)
20 = (71)

Plus, I suspect 16 UHF is equal to 67 cable, but it's not coming in right, which means it may be scrambled. (I don't know what 67 is on our system...I don't get any scrambled channels.)

[davezatz]

I didn't realize that.

VERY interesting. Sort of odd too, since over the air channels 2-13 are on exactly the same frequencies as the cable versions.

Strange goings on.

It's presumably to meet federal regulations going into effect next year. If you offer a OTA NTSC tuner (or functionality?) you must offer an ATSC as well. (Not to mention NTSC OTA is being turned off in 2009.)

I assume they also did some research to back the decision by discovering the vast majority of TiVo owners subscribe to cable or satellite services.

[vman41]

Someone's messed up, then and it's not me.

I SAW his cable tuner get two, maybe three UHF channels.

I've done the opposite too, tuning in cable channels with my UHF tuner.



I guess you didn't understand my point that a TV/radio tuner may lock into a channel on the wrong frequency if it is close enough to the defined channel frequency. TV channel frequencies are 6 MHz apart, each UHF channels is 2 MHZ higher than a cable channel - close enough to get a lock.

[classicsat]

All your mucking with frequency mapping won't help much without channel mapping and lineups for antenna.

[Jonathan_S]

All your mucking with frequency mapping won't help much without channel mapping and lineups for antenna.True. Although I don't know how much investigating TiVo is going to do to try to keep OTA lineups from being generated.

It's possible that if someone submitted a channel lineup for a bogus apartment complex TiVo wouldn't bother to check to see if it was just a mapping of the local OTA station frequency onto the closest match cable channel frequency.

For example, around here:
OTA 4 = NBC, WRC
OTA 5 = FOX, WTTG
OTA 7 = ABC, WJLA
OTA 9 = CBS, WUSA
OTA 20 = UPN, WDCA
So if you sent in a lineup for <fake apt internal cable system> and stated that:
WRC was on cable channel 4
WTTG was on cable channel 5
WJLA was on cable channel 7
WUSA was on cable channel 9
WDCA was on cable channel 71
TiVo might push out that lineup. Then if you selected it, you might well be able to trick your S2 DT unit into recording them correctly from an antenna.

[davezatz]

Anyone that clever and motivated would probably have (stolen) cable or satellite... ;)

[gastrof]

Anyone that clever and motivated would probably have (stolen) cable or satellite... ;)


Yeah, but what can you do with a bunch of cable and some downed satellites? :p

[classicsat]

Legal and technical implications of stealing services aside, if I were to try to make a DT work for antenna (for the analog side), I'd set up for cable, and intercept the programming commands to the tuner chip and substitute ones for antenna channels, or jsut intercept commands directing and external tuner to tune locals, feeding its A/V directly into the 2nd encoder.

[davezatz]

All your mucking with frequency mapping won't help much without channel mapping and lineups for antenna.

This raises an interesting question for me...

Series 3 supposedly supports unencrypted QAM. But where is TiVo going to get channel lineup and guide data from? I don't think Comcast publishes it anywhere. In fact, I can't even rely on my channels being on the same number they were the day before.

[jfh3]

This raises an interesting question for me...

Series 3 supposedly supports unencrypted QAM. But where is TiVo going to get channel lineup and guide data from? I don't think Comcast publishes it anywhere. In fact, I can't even rely on my channels being on the same number they were the day before.


If we are lucky, they will have the ability to edit a channel map, like in the Sony DHG series

If not, I suspect there will be a lot of requests for "one-off" lineups to the guide team. (I've got mine ready to go).

You'd have to have channel designation, QAM frequency, CableCard flags for each station though (e.g. use the "CableCard required" flag to specify that the channel can only be turned via CC)

[ChuckyBox]

Knowing the Series 2 DT does not have OTA tuners built in would it work if the input were from a High Definition Terrestrial Tuner?

I'm not sure if the output of the tuner would be analog or digital but if the guide data is available wouldn't the DT be able to control it via an ir blaster like it would a satellite box?

I'm just curious if this option was intentionally left out in the description of features or if it was just an oversight.
I think this will probably happen, but there probably isn't a lot of demand or standardization right now. As broadcasting becomes increasingly digital, and people get sick of high cable bills (and can get more content over the internet), I suspect there may be a resurgence in interest in broadcast TV.

I wouldn't be surprised to see TiVo partner with a CE company (Sony, Toshiba, or even Humax or Radio Shack) to build an ATSC tuner box optimized to work with the analog TiVo boxes. There are various ways a box like that could work with various cable and non-cable setups. And with serial control, it could be easy to set up, and reliable to use. It could even be designed to match the TiVo appearance.

(I'm thinking that the tuner box could spit one channel via composite or s-video, and either one or two channels via RF. But now I wonder if you could stream the digital data over the ethernet, and the TiVo could store it directly (without the D-A, A-D, D-A nonsense that would be required otherwise). And, hell, you could store several shows at the same time, it would just depend on how many tuners the tuner box had (or "tuner boxes" if you get my meaning), and the TiVo's ability to absorb the data.)

[bluedakar]

This is all very interesting. I had no idea there were legal issues involved with this and I thought the technical issues would be minimal.

I figured if OTA guide data is available for the single tuner TiVos, the guide data should be available for the dual tuner as well. As far as the OTA digital channel guide info, TiVo is going to have to provide that for the S3 anyway, correct?

The reason I am interested is I have the very basic cable provided practically free with my cable internet service and I could use that for the analog cable to the Tivo, but the quality is not that great. That's where I'd like to use the OTA digital (from say an HD OTA tuner) to provide a quality signal and add some other channels that the digital provides. With this combo I think I would have enough channels to avoid spending anymore than I need on programing.

I may be in a minority, but I think it would be worthwhile if Tivo could provide this functionality. I am totally tech-ignorant when it comes to this, but I can't see much difference over a satellite tuner providing the signal to the Tivo over a HD OTA tuner providing the signal. I think it would expand the functionality of the box with minimal if any additional cost to the unit (which I think was one of their primary goals with this box).

Isn't it ironic that in 2006 we can get a better signal OTA than from our analog cable connection. That probably applies to the digital cable too. My how the times have changed....

[lessd]

This is all very interesting. I had no idea there were legal issues involved with this and I thought the technical issues would be minimal.

I figured if OTA guide data is available for the single tuner TiVos, the guide data should be available for the dual tuner as well. As far as the OTA digital channel guide info, TiVo is going to have to provide that for the S3 anyway, correct?

The reason I am interested is I have the very basic cable provided practically free with my cable internet service and I could use that for the analog cable to the Tivo, but the quality is not that great. That's where I'd like to use the OTA digital (from say an HD OTA tuner) to provide a quality signal and add some other channels that the digital provides. With this combo I think I would have enough channels to avoid spending anymore than I need on programing.

I may be in a minority, but I think it would be worthwhile if Tivo could provide this functionality. I am totally tech-ignorant when it comes to this, but I can't see much difference over a satellite tuner providing the signal to the Tivo over a HD OTA tuner providing the signal. I think it would expand the functionality of the box with minimal if any additional cost to the unit (which I think was one of their primary goals with this box).

Isn't it ironic that in 2006 we can get a better signal OTA than from our analog cable connection. That probably applies to the digital cable too. My how the times have changed....

I working with the S2 DT now and it will take in one analog cable signal (ch 1-99) and one composite signal. The composite signal can come from any tuner but if TiVo does not have the channel lineup of that tuner your system will not work, normally this tuner would be the digital cable box, this gives you the opportunity to record say HBO and watch or record say NBC just using the TiVo and not having to switch inputs on your TV. You still can't record say HBO and SHO at the same time. (If you don't use or need the composite signal you can get two analog cable signals so you record say ABC and NBC at the same time)

And one more thing the S2 DT will not tune the OTA UHF stations, you are not even given antenna as a setup option so you would not get the lineup. The S2 DT should only be used for what it was designed for.

[kb7oeb]

I ditto the legal reson for blocking OTA, if your bored set your tv to cable and hook up an antenna. If you have UHF 15 punch in 66 and your tv will fine tune for a second and then appear the same as in AIR mode.

Tivo does nothing to support digital OTA tuners, many of them already have IR codes in the database but no working lineup

[bluedakar]

And one more thing the S2 DT will not tune the OTA UHF stations, you are not even given antenna as a setup option so you would not get the lineup. The S2 DT should only be used for what it was designed for.

Thanks for the first hand response. That pretty much answers my question. Although it sounds like there could be some work-arounds, I don't think I would go that far with it. If Tivo can't add an external OTA tuner option to the S2 DT I think I'll keep waiting. The S3 sounds like it could be everything I need and more. It will be interesting to see what price they put on it.

[classicsat]

This raises an interesting question for me...

Series 3 supposedly supports unencrypted QAM. But where is TiVo going to get channel lineup and guide data from? I don't think Comcast publishes it anywhere. In fact, I can't even rely on my channels being on the same number they were the day before.

Guided setup. Or maybe PSIP like datastream as part of the CC standard (if there is one).

[MichaelK]

give the hackers some time- they;ll figure out how to do it, and tivo wont care.

[TiVo Troll]

give the hackers some time- they;ll figure out how to do it, and tivo wont care.

TiVo won't care, and from reading this and other threads, it's highly likely that hack workarounds for Tivofanatics are in the works.

The limitations of the dual tuner Series 2 make it desirable only for those who can't wait for the full featured HD DT Series 3. This DT Ser. 2 TiVo is at best an interim product with limited capabilities. Its premium pricing isn't a good deal for the average DVR user either!

TiVo might consider offering to apply a DT Ser. 2 sub. to the upcoming Ser.3 if they want to make these short-term transition boxes attractive to the mass audience.

[ZeoTiVo]

TiVo won't care, and from reading this and other threads, it's highly likely that hack workarounds for Tivofanatics are in the works.

The limitations of the dual tuner Series 2 make it desirable only for those who can't wait for the full featured HD DT Series 3. This DT Ser. 2 TiVo is at best an interim product with limited capabilities. Its premium pricing isn't a good deal for the average DVR user either!

TiVo might consider offering to apply a DT Ser. 2 sub. to the upcoming Ser.3 if they want to make these short-term transition boxes attractive to the mass audience.


40% of all cable subscribers are on analog still. many only wnat the analog.
This is not an interim or transition box since the Sereis 3 will be out second half of this year and we are only talking months before it arrives.

But I am on anlog and not looking to quickly jump into HD stuff. So for me a 99$ DVR at 6.95 (I have a lifetimed 240) per month for dual tuners is perfect. I exepct to get one and drop in a large hard drive. Decommission my 140 hour TiVo I got under that free deal and viola - an extra tuner for just 100$ one time cost plus it has ethernet for much faster TTG and MRV.

hardly a premium price for me as I would still have to spend 30$ or more a month to get to a cable company DVR since I have to go up to digital tier first. and now the cable company DVR has no advantage for me since I do not care about digital channels or HD and lacks TiVoToGo and other features I use a lot.

so if you are already digital or want HD then the premium Series 3 is for you.
If you are analog and like having just analog cable this Series 2 DT TiVo is a much cheaper route than having to pay for a digital tier you do not want. Time will change all this but for now I am very happy about the DT being available :D

[TiVo Troll]

40% of all cable subscribers are on analog still. many only wnat the analog.
This is not an interim or transition box since the Sereis 3 will be out second half of this year and we are only talking months before it arrives.

But I am on anlog and not looking to quickly jump into HD stuff. So for me a 99$ DVR at 6.95 (I have a lifetimed 240) per month for dual tuners is perfect. I exepct to get one and drop in a large hard drive. Decommission my 140 hour TiVo I got under that free deal and viola - an extra tuner for just 100$ one time cost plus it has ethernet for much faster TTG and MRV.

hardly a premium price for me as I would still have to spend 30$ or more a month to get to a cable company DVR since I have to go up to digital tier first. and now the cable company DVR has no advantage for me since I do not care about digital channels or HD and lacks TiVoToGo and other features I use a lot.

so if you are already digital or want HD then the premium Series 3 is for you.
If you are analog and like having just analog cable this Series 2 DT TiVo is a much cheaper route than having to pay for a digital tier you do not want. Time will change all this but for now I am very happy about the DT being available :D

Comcast in my area is discontinuing analog Basic Cable in a few months. They already offer a dual tuner hi-def DVR (http://www.comcast.com/dvrmicrosoft/) rental for $10. on a month-to-month basis with no contract or term requirement. The Comcast box even provides an analog output for the multiple OTA digital channels which are available.

I get 9 channels OTA including 3 good ones which aren't available from either Comcast or satellite.

Two standard Series 2 TiVo's w/Lifetime service are a MUCH better deal than the new premium priced DT Ser. 2.

TiVo's new DT Ser. 2 has no OTA UHF capability, can't access two simultaneous digital sources, only ouputs one source at a time, and rents at a premium without the Lifetime Service option. While undoubtedly useful for some viewers it's not exactly the best deal for everyone!

[ChuckyBox]

While undoubtedly useful for some viewers it's not exactly the best deal for everyone!
Can you think of many products that are?

[Adam1115]

give the hackers some time- they;ll figure out how to do it, and tivo wont care.

I wouldn't count on it. The 540 still remains unhackable without a Prom replacement. We'll be LUCKY if the DT can be hacked with even current prom mods! (TiVo tends to be closing holes once discovered, it's possible they've closed the 'prom mod' hole somehow..)

[MichaelK]

I wouldn't count on it. The 540 still remains unhackable without a Prom replacement. We'll be LUCKY if the DT can be hacked with even current prom mods! (TiVo tends to be closing holes once discovered, it's possible they've closed the 'prom mod' hole somehow..)

interesting- I wasn't aware they locked things that well- it's been some time since i kept tabs on the hackers.

[lessd]

Comcast in my area is discontinuing analog Basic Cable in a few months. They already offer a rental for $10. on a month-to-month basis with no contract or term requirement. The Comcast box even provides an analog output for the multiple OTA digital channels which are available.


I have Comcast what area are you in ?

[MichaelK]

Places with high rates of piracy are top of the list to go all digital. In those areas (EG parts of NYC) there already is very little unscrambled analog and boxes are required for basically all subs. So if everyone needs a box anyway, why not move them all to digital boxes and reclaim all the room.

On AVS there have been other reports in other areas of all the analog channels being duplicated in digital but I haven’t seen much talk of impending shut down dates for analog- unless you have most people on boxes already I don’t think it’s very feasible to kill analog anytime soon.

[lessd]

Places with high rates of piracy are top of the list to go all digital. In those areas (EG parts of NYC) there already is very little unscrambled analog and boxes are required for basically all subs. So if everyone needs a box anyway, why not move them all to digital boxes and reclaim all the room.

On AVS there have been other reports in other areas of all the analog channels being duplicated in digital but I haven’t seen much talk of impending shut down dates for analog- unless you have most people on boxes already I don’t think it’s very feasible to kill analog anytime soon.

The new Moto digital HD DVR box 34xxx has no analog tuner built in but the Hartford Comcast has not killed analog channels just put them on some other digital channels. When I tune the Moto box to say channel 4 I get the non HD but digital version NBC (I can't tell what digital channel "4" is map to), if I tune my TiVo to channel 4 I get the analog version of NBC.

[cheer]

I wouldn't count on it. The 540 still remains unhackable without a Prom replacement. We'll be LUCKY if the DT can be hacked with even current prom mods! (TiVo tends to be closing holes once discovered, it's possible they've closed the 'prom mod' hole somehow..)
Let's rephrase...there are no publicly-available software-only hacks for the 540xxx/R10 Tivos. It's common practice for those who find the exploits to wait until the hole is closed on newer models before releasing them to the general public...for example, I'm pretty sure killhdinitrd wasn't available until the so-called Series2.5 boxes (540xxx/R10) came out.

I don't want to get into a discussion as to why the hack developers do that, because it's not germane. However, I'm relatively certain (i.e. I'm not just guessing blind) that the hacks exist. If the DT closes whatever exploits were used, then they'll probably be released before long. Either way, I'd be very surprised if any of the Tivos stay unhackable.

--chris

[cheer]

I working with the S2 DT now and it will take in one analog cable signal (ch 1-99) and one composite signal.
Les, can you clarify something for me?

If someone just has analog basic, does this mean they don't get dual tuner? Or does it mean that the box just needs the one coax connection and it internally splits to the two tuners?

My mom has analog cable and isn't likely to change anytime soon. I think this box would be great for her, but if the second tuner must come in via composite, that won't fly...

--chris

[lessd]

Les, can you clarify something for me?

If someone just has analog basic, does this mean they don't get dual tuner? Or does it mean that the box just needs the one coax connection and it internally splits to the two tuners?

My mom has analog cable and isn't likely to change anytime soon. I think this box would be great for her, but if the second tuner must come in via composite, that won't fly...

--chris

You got it correct it has two analog tuners and the signal is split inside the TiVo to both analog tuners, if you don't have a cable box to worry about. When you set the TiVo up just say no cable box and TiVo does the rest. You will not then be using the component inputs.

[cheer]

You got it correct it has two analog tuners and the signal is split inside the TiVo to both analog tuners, if you don't have a cable box to worry about. When you set the TiVo up just say no cable box and TiVo does the rest. You will not then be using the component inputs.
Awesome. Thanks much!

--chris

[Adam1115]

Let's rephrase...there are no publicly-available software-only hacks for the 540xxx/R10 Tivos. It's common practice for those who find the exploits to wait until the hole is closed on newer models before releasing them to the general public...for example, I'm pretty sure killhdinitrd wasn't available until the so-called Series2.5 boxes (540xxx/R10) came out.

I don't want to get into a discussion as to why the hack developers do that, because it's not germane. However, I'm relatively certain (i.e. I'm not just guessing blind) that the hacks exist. If the DT closes whatever exploits were used, then they'll probably be released before long. Either way, I'd be very surprised if any of the Tivos stay unhackable.

--chris

You are right. Regardless, though, the DT will be unhackable to the masses for quite some time.

Either the 'hole' was closed, and we're starting from scratch. OR, it is still open and nobody will release the patch for fear that they'll close it on the Series3.

Or there is no hole...