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View Full Version : TNT picture quality lacking

njmurvin
05-01-2006, 06:28 PM
Maybe it's just me, but watching the NBA playoffs this weekend, I would swear that the TNT HD quality is inferior to other channels broadcasting sports in HD. Compared to ESPN or even the networks, the TNT picture appeared muddy and motion artifacts were more prevalent. I think NBC picture quality seems to suffer similarly in their recorded (Will and Grace, etc.) programming.

I assume both of these problems would be associated with compression. But, why one channel versus another? Where is the compression done? Is it possible that TNT is compressing and DTV compressing it even further? It's still better than SD, but it sucks pay all this $$$$ to receive an inferior signal.
stim
05-01-2006, 09:22 PM
Both of those channels are broadcast in 1080i and ESPN is broadcast in 720p. Is it possible that your TV likes the 720p signal better?

I have heard that DirecTV over compresses their channels, but it seems like ESPN would be compressed just as badly. I believe that the compression is applied by DirecTV, not the networks, but I could be wrong...
Sir_winealot
05-02-2006, 09:56 AM
My wife and I have both noticed that TNT HD seems inferior to just about every other HD channel/broadcast.

I especially notice this during a movie when the camera is panning...

During a crowd scene the other night, as the camera panned left-to-right some of the peoples heads went from slightly elongated....to normal...to slightly elongated again. And now that I've noticed this I'm able to see it a lot more often.

TNTHD is IMO most definitely of lessor quality.
bferrell
05-02-2006, 10:27 AM
TNT HD looks nice on my Hitachi 42HDT55. I noticed this sort of effect on my brother's Panasonic set, anything that was in 1080i looked crappy, particularly when there was quick motions in the picture. It made football very difficult to watch. I believe it has something to do with the video processor, and I'd be inclined to have the Tivo/STB output (deinterlace) in 720p to try and deal with it.
njmurvin
05-02-2006, 12:09 PM
Interesting . . .

1) I am viewing on a Maxent 50X3 (Panasonic glass and components).

2) I am using 720P over component.

I will try 1080i tonight and see if it makes any difference. I really suspect that it's compression, though.
TyroneShoes
05-02-2006, 01:32 PM
My wife and I have both noticed that TNT HD seems inferior to just about every other HD channel/broadcast.

I especially notice this during a movie when the camera is panning...

During a crowd scene the other night, as the camera panned left-to-right some of the peoples heads went from slightly elongated....to normal...to slightly elongated again. And now that I've noticed this I'm able to see it a lot more often.

TNTHD is IMO most definitely of lessor quality.
This is due to their use of non-linear stretch, a poor man's way of filling a 16:9 screen with 4:3 material. While it doesn't increase digital artifacting or reduce resolution significantly, it certainly contributes to the perception of poor PQ.

The sad part is it doesn't have to be. If they would leave the non-linear stretch out of the equation, PQ would appear better, and customers could deal with the stretch on their own, should they want to.

Which just goes to show you that just because you have an available technical solution to a problem, that doesn't automatically make it a good idea. Wake up and smell the propane, TNT!
stim
05-02-2006, 01:32 PM
My wife and I have both noticed that TNT HD seems inferior to just about every other HD channel/broadcast.

I especially notice this during a movie when the camera is panning...

During a crowd scene the other night, as the camera panned left-to-right some of the peoples heads went from slightly elongated....to normal...to slightly elongated again. And now that I've noticed this I'm able to see it a lot more often.

TNTHD is IMO most definitely of lessor quality.

I have not noticed that...

It almost sounds like your TV is on some kind of wide zoom or stretch mode. Some TVs have a setting where they will stretch the edges more than the center and it will give that kind of effect.

Edit: damn, I was beat to it! :) So it is TNT doing the stretching? I'm watching TNTHD on cable and haven't noticed that, but I haven't really looked for it either.
nataylor
05-02-2006, 01:45 PM
TNT is most definitely taking a 4:3 picture and applying some proportional stretch to it and up converting that to HD. It's absolutely impossible for me to watch it, it's so horrible.
ayrton911
05-02-2006, 02:06 PM
TNT is most definitely taking a 4:3 picture and applying some proportional stretch to it and up converting that to HD. It's absolutely impossible for me to watch it, it's so horrible.

Every program is done this way?
nataylor
05-02-2006, 02:12 PM
Every program is done this way?Dunno about some stuff (like Law & Order reruns), but certainly every movie I've seen on it.
Sir_winealot
05-02-2006, 02:24 PM
This is due to their use of non-linear stretch, a poor man's way of filling a 16:9 screen with 4:3 material. While it doesn't increase digital artifacting or reduce resolution significantly, it certainly contributes to the perception of poor PQ.

The sad part is it doesn't have to be. If they would leave the non-linear stretch out of the equation, PQ would appear better, and customers could deal with the stretch on their own, should they want to.

Which just goes to show you that just because you have an available technical solution to a problem, that doesn't automatically make it a good idea. Wake up and smell the propane, TNT!


That explains it TS ...it looks very unnatural and to me it's quite noticable. I really wish they did not do this as it most definitely "contributes to the perception of poor PQ."

I have no complaints about digital artifacting or pixelization, but TNTHD mildly reminds me of a SD pic in 'stretch mode.' Now I know why...
BlueMonk
05-02-2006, 05:20 PM
I agree that the TNT HD of the NBA playoffs is much lower quality than ESPN/ABC version. It is ok in shots with no motion but add action the differences are easy for me to see on my Samsung DLP.
njmurvin
05-02-2006, 06:55 PM
I agree that the TNT HD of the NBA playoffs is much lower quality than ESPN/ABC version. It is ok in shots with no motion but add action the differences are easy for me to see on my Samsung DLP.

Thanks. Glad to hear I'm not alone. I haven't really tried yet with my LCD projector, but motion on the plasma is terrible and even the still pictures seem a little muddier than live HD broadcasts on other stations. I tried ESPN HD and it was a baseball game. Motion didn't really cause any issues there. That's why I concluded that it must be TNT.
darthrsg
05-02-2006, 07:27 PM
Not all of TNT is in "stretch-o-suck" some movies are and some shows are(x-files).In their defense when it is HD it as good as HDNET, albeit HD_LITE. The real killer is the guide data it says all shows/movies are HD.
stim
05-02-2006, 09:15 PM
I looked for it today, and I know for sure that the NBA playoffs are NOT stretched (at least not on Comcast).
Mark Lopez
05-02-2006, 10:40 PM
This is due to their use of non-linear stretch, ...

This is why I removed that channel from the list. :down: :down: :down:
BlueMonk
05-03-2006, 12:09 PM
Thanks. Glad to hear I'm not alone. I haven't really tried yet with my LCD projector, but motion on the plasma is terrible and even the still pictures seem a little muddier than live HD broadcasts on other stations. I tried ESPN HD and it was a baseball game. Motion didn't really cause any issues there. That's why I concluded that it must be TNT.

I watched the Kings/Spurs game last night on channel 95 (NBATV?) and it was better than TNT too. I don't know if TNT is 'stretched' or not. I just know it seems to be the worst HD broadcast out there. I don't remember this problem on CBS during the tourney either. So don't throw out the plasma.
njmurvin
05-03-2006, 12:53 PM
I watched the Kings/Spurs game last night on channel 95 (NBATV?) and it was better than TNT too. I don't know if TNT is 'stretched' or not. I just know it seems to be the worst HD broadcast out there. I don't remember this problem on CBS during the tourney either. So don't throw out the plasma.
Oh, it's pretty safe to say I won't be throwing out the plasma. Interesting enough, though,

1) I set it to 1080i and no discernable difference.

2) I watched the same game (Lakers vs. Phoenix) on my 106" front proj (Panny LCD - 720p over component) and the motion blurring was almost unnoticeable. Different HD Tivo, but that shouldn't make any difference.

That really surprised me because I thought LCDs were more susceptible than plasmas for this. Can anyone explain what might be going on?
epeters
05-05-2006, 02:42 PM
I agree that the TNT HD of the NBA playoffs is much lower quality than ESPN/ABC version. It is ok in shots with no motion but add action the differences are easy for me to see on my Samsung DLP.

I seem to be having a lot of motion artefact with basketball with DirectTV sources. The Lakers/Suns game on ESPN-HD was terrible. TNT-HD has been poor as well. Again, to reiterate, the still shots (e.g., face shot of a player at the free throw line) are razor sharp.

I think the OTA sources are better, but basketball does seem to suffer because of the intense amount of motion. Maybe it's my display? (NEC 50XR5) Probably not.

Eric
TyroneShoes
05-05-2006, 04:08 PM
...the motion blurring was almost unnoticeable...That really surprised me because I thought LCDs were more susceptible than plasmas for this. Can anyone explain what might be going on?
LCDs have a reputation for refreshing slower than DLP or others. In fact, certain unscrupulous DLP manufacturers tout this in their literature. What they don't tell you (which is why I label them unscrupulous) is that it really dosen't matter if DLP refreshes 8 times faster than LCD if both refresh significantly faster than the field rate, which they both do.

Gamers are the really critical folks when it comes to screen refresh, and modern LCDs have been endorsed by them as refreshing plenty fast enough. The days when LCDs would submarine your cursor have been over for about a decade, which makes the "reputation" grossly out of date.

Motion artifacting is usually not a function of the display, although some have a touch more of it than others. Typically it is a bitstarving issue in transmission, especially if it is very noticeable, and definitely if you see more on certain broadcasts. The Tivo does not contribute any artifacting, being a bit-bucket recorder.