How good is reception for over the air ATSC/Digital compared to NTSC/Analog?

[Puppy76]

I use over the air NTSC for my Tivo, because frankly I try to avoid any monthly expenses I can…but over the weekend I went from near perfect reception on my six channels down to basically unusable reception on five of them. I guess it was weather related. I don’t know, I’m getting really frustrated with reception…

And I’m wondering if ATSC/digital TV is any better? Or worse? Obviously reception is going to be different for everybody, but can anyone weigh in as to whether they get better or worse reception with a digital signal compared to analog? Does digital reception basically either come in perfectly, or not at all?

The way I see it, if I keep having problems with reception, I’ve got three choices:

1) Buy a Series 3 this fall, hoping I’ll get better reception on digital channels.
2) Finally bite the bullet and get “Lifeline” cable for $14/month (or possibly splurge for $30 full analog cable). Along with this get either a series “2.5” or a 3 (I REALLY need dual tuners)
3) Give up on TV. Just switch to Netflix and watch seasons of shows as they come out on TV. This would be weird for me, but might almost be cheaper, especially compared to cable. (With this option I'd just keep using my S2 to muddle through with stuff that's not going to hit DVD-news shows and the like.)

Any thoughts? I don’t know, I’m just really sad I missed out on episodes of Smallvile, Saturday Night Live, etc. over the weekend :(

[greg_burns]

Does digital reception basically either come in perfectly, or not at all?

Yes, that has been my experience. I have a ATSC tuner in my TV and can pick up a few HD & digital channels OTA. Hopefully the S3 works as well.

[terryfoster]

You've asked a tough question. Yes, if you get the digital signal it will be perfect or you will have nothing. This is different than analog that will degrade in picture if your reception isn't good. Now keep in mind if your reception is fair with digital signals, then you will have a perfect picture and then complete garbage as the signal "breaks up" and then perfect picture again.

If you are having poor reception of analog stations then I can probably say your reception of digital stations will be just as poor. So if you say your analog picture is unwatchable then the digital stations will probably not "lock in."

You may want to check out AVS Forum about digital broadcast reception in your area and how best to get the channels you want. There are specific threads for several different cities/regions around the US.

OTA reception has so many HUGE variables it can become very frustrating, but stick with it because for some additional up front costs you can continue to watch free TV.

[bluedakar]

Also check out antennaweb (google it). You can put your address in and it will tell you what type of antenna you need for your location. In our case we don't have a VHF antenna so I can't say how the signal compares to our HD OTA signal. I can say that our HD OTA signal is (fortunately for us) excellent. Every bit as good as satellite or better. In fact when setting up our HD Tivo I chose the OTA signal over the satellite picture wherever possible. If you get the right antenna and even an amp if needed, it's well worth it. You'll also get more channels than you get with VHF. It's been more reliable than our satellite signal.

[terryfoster]

Keep in mind that VHF & UHF are both used to transmit digital signals from broadcasters.

[bluedakar]

I did not know that. I only have a UHF antenna and I get all the local channels (as far as I can tell). Maybe I'm missing some...

[RoyK]

I use over the air NTSC for my Tivo, because frankly I try to avoid any monthly expenses I can…but over the weekend I went from near perfect reception on my six channels down to basically unusable reception on five of them. I guess it was weather related. I don’t know, I’m getting really frustrated with reception…

And I’m wondering if ATSC/digital TV is any better? Or worse? Obviously reception is going to be different for everybody, but can anyone weigh in as to whether they get better or worse reception with a digital signal compared to analog? Does digital reception basically either come in perfectly, or not at all?

The way I see it, if I keep having problems with reception, I’ve got three choices:

....(

Puppy I'd check out my antenna system if I were you. From your description I'd suspect a bad connection somewhere.

The others are right. OTA digital is all or nothing. Either PERFECT picture or nothing at all. A marginal signal will give a perfect picture and sound, then drop altogether then perfection again etc. Very annoying.

But if you are in the right location and have a good antenna correctly aimed the results are WELL worth the effort.

Do check out http://www.antennaweb.org/

Roy

[moyekj]

In my experience I couldn't pick up any analog channel in UHF frequency range using an indoor amplified UHF antenna, but I decided to borrow a friend's ATSC tuner and try out digital reception anyway. I was extremely surprised that I was able to pickup all the network HD channels along with some other SD channels even though I'm 60+ miles away from the antennas and only using an indoor antenna. After checking several locations in the house with the antenna I have optimized the digital reception to a point where there are hardly ever any dropouts anymore on HD channels I care about. As a bonus it turns out my garage has the best reception so I can keep the antenna out of sight.

[MichaelK]

I did not know that. I only have a UHF antenna and I get all the local channels (as far as I can tell). Maybe I'm missing some...


depends on the market. In NY and philly- all the VHF channels are basicaly taken for analog so all the ATSC channels are UHF (there is an ATSC channel 8 in central NJ- but everythign else is uhf). I would guess all the big city situations would be the same.

[terryfoster]

You may not be missing any channels since your area may be UHF only.

[bluedakar]

depends on the market. In NY and philly- all the VHF channels are basicaly taken for analog so all the ATSC channels are UHF (there is an ATSC channel 8 in central NJ- but everythign else is uhf). I would guess all the big city situations would be the same.

Ah, that's interesting to know. I have a Terk TV32 that is marketed as a HDTV antenna (and says in small letters, UHF only). That could cause some real headaches for those in markets with VHF digital channels. Thanks for the info.

EDIT: I'm in Salt Lake, so probably not an issue here.

[atmuscarella]

Currently most digital channels are broadcasting on UHF however after the analog signals are turned off this may not be true. As an example lets say you have a local channel 10 which is analog and this station is broadcasting its digital version on channel 33 after the analog channel 10 is gone the digital version may then be broadcast on channel 10 and you will need a VHF antenna to get it. It is really unclear what broadcasters will do in 2009 when all the analog channels are shut down but I would plan on needing UHF and VHF antennas.

Thanks,

atmuscarella

[Dan203]

I my area 3 of the 5 ATSC channels are broadcast on VHF. So you should definitely check your local area conditions before you buy a special UHF only antenna.

Dan

[rainwater]

A good resource for looking up what stations are in your area:

http://antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx

[MichaelK]

Currently most digital channels are broadcasting on UHF however after the analog signals are turned off this may not be true. As an example lets say you have a local channel 10 which is analog and this station is broadcasting its digital version on channel 33 after the analog channel 10 is gone the digital version may then be broadcast on channel 10 and you will need a VHF antenna to get it. It is really unclear what broadcasters will do in 2009 when all the analog channels are shut down but I would plan on needing UHF and VHF antennas.

Thanks,

atmuscarella

good advice.

There are a few points during the process when the stations are polled as to which place they want to be, their old analog location or their new digital channel. Last year some point they all made their first round picks. For some it was a no brainer and they committed (vhf 10 or UHF 65 which is going bye bye) for other channels it's a tougher choice (say you had vhf2 which stinks for ATSC or uhf 65 which is going bye bye) so they took a pass and will wait to see what everyone else picked. I guess at some point since those first group decided, the second group will get dibs on what's left. If you dig around Avs forums HD land you can find the listing of who has picked what so far. But I would be surprised if any one area everyone committed.

[vman41]

The others are right. OTA digital is all or nothing. Either PERFECT picture or nothing at all. A marginal signal will give a perfect picture and sound, then drop altogether then perfection again etc. Very annoying.

It's not always all or nothing, you can get intermittant effects, e.g. blowing trees and rain causing the signal to come and go. You'll get a mostly good picture with annoying freezes and blockiness and/or audio dropouts.

[Troy J B]

At least 2 rounds of elections have been made. Here in the Sacramento area 2 stations have chosen to stay in the VHF range.

[Puppy76]

Wow, thanks for all the great responses!
Interesting stuff. Turns out my farthest away station is 14.7 miles, and my next furthest is 7.x miles-and those are the two I have the toughest time with. They’re also the only two that aren’t in a single straight line from my house. (I also have trouble with my CBS station-it comes in, but frequently has lines going across the picture-don’t care too much though as I watch it less than anything else.)
All my channels are "yellow" on Antennaweb, except for one green, and one red (the two I have the most problems with).

Can anyone recommend a good indoor UHF antenna for both NTSC (and hopefully ATSC when I eventually get a Series 3 and HDTV)? Several years ago I bought Terk’s TV-55

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005T3A9/sr=8-1/qid=1146528945/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-6886034-6214236?%5Fencoding=UTF8

which cost me around $100, but frankly is a joke. I’ve never been sure it’s any better than a 30 year old pair of “rabbit ears”. Over the past half year I’ve moved it all around (and on top of) my TV, but have never been completely satisfied for very long.

Searching around randomly on that AVS Forum and Amazon, I found the Terk HDTVLP (same as the Winegard Sharpshooter SS-3000). It looks like people on Amazon are really satisfied with it for HD, but maybe it doesn’t work well with NTSC? Unfortunately the only semi-reputable place I can find it is J&R through Amazon, and that costs $100.

I also found a reference to the DB-8 from www.antennasdirect.com being good. I’ve never heard of that site though.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/indoorantennas.html

The DB-8 was apparently supposed to be an outdoor antenna, but people (supposedly) have good luck with it indoors too. It doesn’t have a stand, and is pretty big, but if it worked for all my local NTSC stations it would be worth it.

[terryfoster]

Ok, let me say this only once. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ATSC AND A NTSC ANTENNA!! They're just antennas and both ATSC and NTSC broadcast on VHF and UHF frequencies.

Now, for a tower 14 miles away, you will be best off with a roof mounted antenna. I would also recommend talking to people on the avsforum that are local to you as they have probably have simple answers for you.

[gastrof]

I use over the air NTSC for my Tivo, because frankly I try to avoid any monthly expenses I can…but over the weekend I went from near perfect reception on my six channels down to basically unusable reception on five of them. I guess it was weather related...


And how's your reception now?

Gotten better?

Could it be a bad antenna line? (Outdoor antenna or rabbit ears? If rabbit ears and still bad, have you tried an outdoor one?)

[Puppy76]

Reception's gotten better. Not perfect, but better. I use Terk's TV-55 indoors. I'm not really willing to drill through a wall or any of that to mount something outside (I think this house used to have a roof anntenna years ago, but the spot it came into the house was covered over by vinal siding).

From what I read yesterday it sounds like an antenna actually can be better at ATSC than NTSC and vice versa? Like they're using the same frequencies (all UHF in my area), but the signal dosen't work the same?

At any rate, that Terk HDTVLP/Winegard Sharpshooter SS-3000 got good reviews on Amazon, but one did mention it's NTSC performance is spotty (while the ATSC performance was excellent).
If I could find that locally where I could easily return it, I'd buy it in a second to try it out. But it would probably be a pain to return it to J&R or whatever it's called.

Anyone use any antenna's they like inside? If I do break down and get cable I guess I'd have to have them drill more holes in my house, which I'm not thrilled about either. I wonder if I just had it hooked up to my main TV where my cable modem is if they'd still have to come inside to "install" it (ie give me a splitter? :p )

I'll try to read through AVS Forums better too. I read most of the Peoria area thread last night, but it didn't really seem to say much useful for me.

[terryfoster]

Again, while the Terk HDTVlp has reviews that say "SDTV reception is spotty" that DOES NOT mean this antenna is better suited for ATSC versus NTSC since the purpose of an antenna is to receive certain broadcast frequencies. ATSC and NTSC transmit on the general VHF and UHF frequencies and these antenna have been around for YEARS. Now a particular tuner may be better suited for ATSC reception over NTSC reception, but antennae are fairly simple devices that cannot tell what the carrier signal is carrying.

[xnevergiveinx]

why does it seem like we are taking a step back in technology? when i first heard about OTA signals, i got that vision of everyone with a large antenna on the roof of theyre house's again

[vman41]

why does it seem like we are taking a step back in technology? when i first heard about OTA signals, i got that vision of everyone with a large antenna on the roof of theyre house's again

Yes, that is what we are talking about, though in most cases the antenna won't be as big (UHF or UHF/VHF-hi). To the extent digital TV makes OTA-only a viable option and puts pressure on the cable companies, that is a good thing.

[terryfoster]

Yeah, it's kind of a step back with giant leap forward (if you're a OTA user now). If you only have interest in watching your local broadcast channels you will now be able to watch them with a crystal clear picture. This wasn't really possible unless they subscribed to cable (which probably wouldn't provide a crystal clear picture anyway) or satellite.

Personally I see OTA as a niche market. You can get lots of programing for free and are not burdened with a monthly subscription fee.

Yes digital broadcasts have lead people to get antennas again, but has it really pulled that many subscribers from cable or satellite? And yes, for most satellite subscribers, to get the digital broadcast of your local stations you need to put up an antenna, but that is being phased out as we speak.

So I believe there will be a resergence of OTA users and as satellite and cable pickup all the local digital broadcasts, the number of OTA users will die off.

Now you should see my neighborhood. Pretty much every house still has their big old antenna on the roof. :)

[atmuscarella]

Unlike cable you pay extra for locals with Satellite, so there is little incentive to give up your OTA use with Satellite if you have a good antenna installed.

If I were purchasing an new HD TV I am not sure I would bother paying to upgrade my satellite equipment and subscribe to a higher cost package with all the HD TV that is available OTA for free.

Honestly I could see giving up pay TV with a dual tuner Tivo recording OTA TV and maybe a subscription to Netflix. I have had Satellite now for about 8 years (no cable available) and for the last year or so I have watch mostly OTA through my TiVo (I get all the networks).

I really don't see OTA causing cable or satellite any problems but I think it will be used by a large number of people.

Thanks,

atmuscarella

[terryfoster]

See, I think OTA will eventually be used by the same people that are using NTSC OTA today with a small number of converts. Satellite will hit a point, kind if like they have today with analog locals, where getting your digital locals over satellite is something you won't have to think twice about. At this point I don't see many hybrid (OTA&Satellite) will be left.

[MutantsForNukes]

I think putting in the effort to get OTA ATSC is absolutely worth it. I'm like you puppy, not crazy about paying for something unless the value is really there.

I used the antennaweb site previous posters have mentioned, and it made all the difference. I'm 19 miles from the local antennas, have a small indoor "hdtv" uhf antenna, and hdtv shows look incredible on my 50" samsung dlp. I didn't quite get it at first though, but when I figured out to tune it to the frequency to get the channel I wanted, then it all made sense.

I tell everyone I know that OTA HDTV is the way to go. I haven't seen hdtv over cable or sat, but from what I've read, those systems have issues with quality due to compression and other reasons. I don't think this fact is getting out to consumers though, since no one makes money specifically from OTA broadcasts. I'm guessing advertisers don't care how you see the commercial, as long as you see it. Of course you don't get channels like HD Discovery from OTA broadcast though. And no OTA HDTV tivo until Series 3.

btw, can anyone give me a quick explanation of the whole channel.1, channel.2 thing? In my area, if I tune to frequency 36, I get the local nbc digital channel 12.1. If I up channel on the remote, it then goes to 12.2, nbc full time weather. Is this 12.2 still on the 36 frequency?

[vman41]

btw, can anyone give me a quick explanation of the whole channel.1, channel.2 thing? In my area, if I tune to frequency 36, I get the local nbc digital channel 12.1. If I up channel on the remote, it then goes to 12.2, nbc full time weather. Is this 12.2 still on the 36 frequency?

Yes, it is still on the same frequency.

Each digital broadcast channel encodes a data stream of 19 million bits/second that is received by the tuner (hopefully) when you select the channel. This data stream can be divided by the broadcaster into different sub-channels each carrying a different video picture and sound. When you tune a sub-channel, such as 12.2, the receiver is extracting that sub-channel's bits into an MPEG-2 stream to decode for display. The total of all the sub-channels can't exceed the 19 million you have for the channel, so the quality degrades as you add sub-channels.

[terryfoster]

In my area, if I tune to frequency 36, I get the local nbc digital channel 12.1. ... Is this 12.2 still on the 36 frequency?

Also, 36 remaps to 12 via PSIP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSIP). This allows networks to broadcast on a seperate channel while retaining their "identity".

[Puppy76]

Last night I went hunting for Terk’s HDTVLP (or the Winegard equivalent) at Best Buy and Circuit City. No luck, neither carries it.

Circuit City had a 40” LCD HD Sony TV set up with a tiny Terk TV3 antenna (just a really basic antenna). I was amazed that it pulled in all six local channels (and additional subchannels) flawlessly. This was with the antenna just kind of crammed behind the TV, and from inside a store, where presumably reception is going to be terrible.

I moved the antenna around, and the worst I could get the image to do was freeze for a couple of seconds. It didn’t seem to matter where the antenna was placed, all six channels came in with no adjustment! That’s just not possible here with NTSC.

So (assuming CC wasn’t somehow “cheating”) I guess that means in my area ATSC is a LOT more robust than NTSC. Antennaweb kind of backs that up by listing the digital version of all six channels as being the easiest to receive (yellow or whatever), while two of their NTSC counterparts are “worse” colors.

What this may mean for me is that I’ll be able to buy a Series 3 this fall, and just switch over completely to ATSC broadcasts (even though I probably won’t have an HD TV by then). That looks like it may well be a viable option instead of cable!

In the mean time, I’m stuck with terrible reception. I had to delete off four more basically unwatchable shows last night. I guess my options until S3 comes out are to get lifeline cable (or maybe even $30 full blown cable), or buy a Terk HDTVLP online for $100, and hope it improves reception. If not, it looks like it would be really hard to return, and the antenna is the price of 9 months of basic cable…

[kb7oeb]

I visited my Aunt in Norco,CA last weekend and I brought along my ATSC tuner to see if it would work there. She is analog OTA only and some of the channels there have severe multi-path so I wasn't sure if it would work. I gave it a shot and it pulled in every channel except for the local UPN. She has a generic radioshack rooftop antenna that I crammed into the attic a couple years ago that is connected to the old cable tv coax.

The .gov now requires all tv's over 25 inch to have a digital tuner. I was looking at the TVs at Best buy and for $269 they had 3 27" sets with digital built in.

Another plus to going digital is extra channels, in her market digital adds The tube (music videos) 2 weather channels and if I counted right 6 PBS channels (in addition to the 3 analog).

[MichaelK]

At least 2 rounds of elections have been made. Here in the Sacramento area 2 stations have chosen to stay in the VHF range.

I believe the upper vhf is the “best choice” followed by UHF and then worst is lower VHF. I know channel 2 sucks, channel 10 is great but don’t know where in between the line gets drawn for where VHF goes from worst to best.

[MichaelK]

Ok, let me say this only once. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ATSC AND A NTSC ANTENNA!! They're just antennas and both ATSC and NTSC broadcast on VHF and UHF frequencies.

Now, for a tower 14 miles away, you will be best off with a roof mounted antenna. I would also recommend talking to people on the avsforum that are local to you as they have probably have simple answers for you.


14 miles – a roof mount? I think that could be overkill in many instances. I am about 38 miles to philly and 48 miles to NY and can get either with an attic antenna. Philly I can get some stations with a silver sensor (in my attic) without even a preamp. So at 14 miles I would think a silver sensor could probably get everything uhf easily even from a first or second floor indoor setup. Of course everyplace is different and there’s a million variables but I’d try the easiest one (buying a silver sensor at sears of a big box where you can return if it doesn’t work) and then go from there.

I second that- the avsfoumr local threads are a great reference

[Shawn95GT]

I moved the antenna around, and the worst I could get the image to do was freeze for a couple of seconds. It didn’t seem to matter where the antenna was placed, all six channels came in with no adjustment! That’s just not possible here with NTSC.
My mother accidently discovered the same thing. She bought a 42" HD TV with an integrated ATSC tuner was was shocked at the HD picture quality using rabbit ears. The analog stations come in snowy and barely recognizable. The Digital stuff looks perfect.

I noticed that her reception goes to pot at night so I'm going to get her setup with an antenna. If she goes with Cable I'll do an indoor, if not it'll be a good sized outdoor one so her Tivo can play too.

I need to find her an ATSC tuner for her Tivo.

[greg_burns]

My mother accidently discovered the same thing. She bought a 42" HD TV with an integrated ATSC tuner was was shocked at the HD picture quality using rabbit ears. The analog stations come in snowy and barely recognizable. The Digital stuff looks perfect.

I noticed that her reception goes to pot at night so I'm going to get her setup with an antenna. If she goes with Cable I'll do an indoor, if not it'll be a good sized outdoor one so her Tivo can play too.

I am using just a set of amplified rabbit ears. Works great. :up:

I need to find her an ATSC tuner for her Tivo.

No S3 for mom? ;)

[cwoody222]

I just got an HDTV last week and am having problems with HD locals with cable. So I got an antenna.

With a $40 amplified one with a remote control to control 12 different positions, I got decent reception. I'm between 8 and 20 miles from my towers in either direction. I'm smack dab downtown with houses/buildings all around.

Digital signal is MUCH clearer than regular. It's even MUCH clearer than my analog basic cable reception.

HD is amazing. Going back to "rabbit ears" scared me but it's amazing that once you have a signal, you're set with a stable, perfect picture. I'm amazed these pictures can come to me over the air! :)

For only $20 + Shipping I got the Zenith Silver Sensor from Amazon. It has no "rabbit ears", it ridiculously small. And it works even better! It's fantastic! I got even more reliable signal without having to move it at all.

Give it a shot, you won't be sorry.

[Puppy76]

Thanks! Do you know if it works decently for UHF Analog too?

[Shawn95GT]

I'm using an unamplified flavor of that antenna with one of my Voom boxes - works great.

[vman41]

For only $20 + Shipping I got the Zenith Silver Sensor from Amazon. It has no "rabbit ears", it ridiculously small. And it works even better! It's fantastic! I got even more reliable signal without having to move it at all..

The first iteration should be the 5 dollar bowtie from Radio Shack, it works very well in a lot of cases.

[Puppy76]

Like this:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058&cp

thing? I just had that recommened to me on AVS Forums for my area.

Last night I tried moving my antenna around the room again, and found a spot where everything comes in pretty well. The bizarre thing is that “spot” keeps moving around the room. Every few weeks/months I’ll lose reception on one or more channels that had been coming in near perfectly, and need to move the antenna somewhere else to have it come in again.

I’d LOVE to know the physics behind why the “magic spot” where I get reception keeps moving. It’s been doing this since I moved here a bit over a year ago. Started out with my antenna against the wall, then ended up on top of my TV, then on top of a bookshelf, then against the wall again, now on top of the TV again. One channel went from near flawless reception to almost complete static until I moved it again-now it’s near flawless. Just really weird IMO.

Hope ATSC won’t give me these problems (hope I can just throw the antenna on top of my bookcase or something and leave it there forever). Ironically I won’t be switching to a Series 3/ATSC for the higher resolution-I probably won’t have an HD TV this year even. I’ll be switching for (hopefully) better reception, and the extra channel/s I’ll be getting.

Just hope I’ll get decent recording time on Series 3, and hope Tivo2Go will work the same, or else I’ll have to consider some other solution (like basic cable with a Series “2.5”).

[terryfoster]

Ironically I won’t be switching to a Series 3/ATSC for the higher resolution-I probably won’t have an HD TV this year even. I’ll be switching for (hopefully) better reception, and the extra channel/s I’ll be getting.

Point of clarification

Your "reception" of ATSC is probably the same as NTSC, but the trick is you don't see the degredation of the signal as easily with a digital picture as you do with an analog signal. In other words even with a really poor/weak signal with ATSC that is just strong enough for your tuner to lock in it will look crystal clear. You're receiving the NTSC signal, but the signal is so poor/weak so the PQ is really lousy.

Although it is entirely possible the towers transmitting the ATSC signals are in better locations for you to receive the signal better, but the above still remains true.

[vman41]

Like this:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058&cp

thing?

That's the double bow tie, I was talking about the single bow tie that is designed to snap onto one on rods on a rabit ears antenna.

A lot of people get an HDTV in the winter and get OTA reception until the spring when the leaves come in on the trees, then they have to re-do their antenna.