Series 3 questions!!!

[omelet1978]

Ok, I have an 80 hour Series 2 DVR. I have been reading up in these forums about series 3. Since you guys are the experts I have a few questions about what I've learned about series3

1. I have lifetime service. Will I be able to transfer that to Series 3? I heard that Tivo allowed a one time transfer from Series 1 to 2 when it came out a few years ago. That would be ideal, but if not I'll just sell the lifetime on ebay to make my money back:)

2. Can record HD tv......will I be able to transfer that to my laptop and then burn it onto dvd? How big would a HD tivo file be????

3. You can hook up an external hard drive....how big is the internal hard drive going to be?

4. I've heard that you can get rid of your cable box...Is this true and how does this work?

5. And the million dollar questions....any ball park figures on how much costs?

The reason I'm curious about the cost is b/c cox cable has a HD DVR with dual tuners already. It is about $15 a month. Its pretty nice too. The reason I went to tivo was b/c of the home networking features. I wanted to burn DVDs and the cox dvr would not even let me hook up a dvd recorder to it.

If series 3 costs like $500 I think they will be shooting themselves in the foot. I mean some people just want a basic dvr. Is hoping for a $200 price range just unreaslistic.

Yes, I know this is a lot of questions, but you guys are pretty passionate about Tivo; so I figured you wouldn't mind:) Thanks in advance!

[jfh3]

I have a few questions about what I've learned about series3


1. Nope. Won't be able to transfer lifetime to a Series 3.

2. Record HD yes, transfer it - we don't know yet.

3. Last report is that Tivo hadn't determined the hard drive size, but it will be at least 250GB

4. Yes. Get cablecard(s) from your cable company and insert in the Series 3. Attach the coax cable to the input. Say good bye to your cable box.

5. Nope. Most are guessing between $499-$799. My guess is closer to the higher end of that range.

If you want a basic DVR, go buy a Series 2 DT box. Hoping for a Series 3 box in the $200 price range IS unrealistic. (The typical cable DVR that supports HD, has a smaller hard drive and less features than the Series 3 cost the cable companies upward of $400 each).

[thwart]

Let's also remember that you pay $9.95 to rent a cable box that can record two HD channels at once.

How much higher can Tivo afford to go than what they are already charging in their current pricing schemes?

I'm guessing they are going to have to drop the prices for the Series 2 units and make the Series 3 about the same price as what they are currently charging for Series 2 units.

[omelet1978]

So can I call directv and ask them for a cablecard and use that with series 2? I haven't heard of that before. Thanks!!!

Oh, and if a cable company pays $400+ for a hd dvr why do they only rent it out for $10-15 a month?

[jfh3]

So can I call directv and ask them for a cablecard and use that with series 2? I haven't heard of that before. Thanks!!!


Of course not.


Oh, and if a cable company pays $400+ for a hd dvr why do they only rent it out for $10-15 a month?

The cable company actually gets more than the $10-$15 month for that DVR from you - part of the jump to the required digital tier is a "hidden rental fee" for the DVR.

Ever wonder why cable companies don't have DVRs for analog customers? Because DVRs are used to get subs to move to the far more profitable digital packages/bundles.

The cable company is also hoping that you'll keep the box for a long time - and most subs will keep it until it dies.

[ZeoTiVo]

So can I call directv and ask them for a cablecard

DirecTV is a satallite broadcaster - not a cable company.

[vman41]

Ever wonder why cable companies don't have DVRs for analog customers? Because DVRs are used to get subs to move to the far more profitable digital packages/bundles.

It's more work for a box to digitally record an analog signal than record a stream already in digital form.

You can also get the digital tier with non-DVR STBs and cable cards, they are logically being subsidized by that 'hidden rental fee' for digital tier as well.

[classicsat]

1. I have lifetime service. Will I be able to transfer that to Series 3? I heard that Tivo allowed a one time transfer from Series 1 to 2 when it came out a few years ago. That would be ideal, but if not I'll just sell the lifetime on ebay to make my money back:)

Not likely. AFAIK, the one-time S1 to S2 Lifetime transfer was to get users onto the Series 2 boxes for their "future abilities" which they could not really do on the Series 1, becasue it was not easily networkable by most people.


2. Can record HD tv......will I be able to transfer that to my laptop and then burn it onto dvd? How big would a HD tivo file be????

Yes. Maybe (at least for OTA and unencrypted cable). The file might be 4x the size, I am guessing.

3. You can hook up an external hard drive....how big is the internal hard drive going to be?

I think 250 or 300 GB

4. I've heard that you can get rid of your cable box...Is this true and how does this work?

Basically yes. The series 3 has built in cable tuners (the only way it can record HD), which use Cablecards to access encrypted content.

5. And the million dollar questions....any ball park figures on how much costs?

If series 3 costs like $500 I think they will be shooting themselves in the foot. I mean some people just want a basic dvr. Is hoping for a $200 price range just unreaslistic.

The Series 2 line is what you want then. There might be monthly bundle packages for the Series 3 though.

[classicsat]

So can I call directv and ask them for a cablecard and use that with series 2? I haven't heard of that before. Thanks!!!


No, for two reasons:

1: People are either confused or misrepresenting how Cablecard works.
I said how it basically woks earlier, and at that a cable tuner cannot tune a satellite signal.

2: DirecTV offers no universal access device comparable to Cablecard, for 3rd party STB, nor are they obligated to. Their smartcard is not comparable to Cablecard.

[bap]

1. Nope. Won't be able to transfer lifetime to a Series 3.

I thought this depended on when lifetime was purchased. Doesn't it depend on that January 2000 date that has been discussed here before?

-Bruce

[terryfoster]

I thought this depended on when lifetime was purchased. Doesn't it depend on that January 2000 date that has been discussed here before?

-Bruce
OP has a series 2 and is asking about the Series 3 which will be outside of the 30 day period in which they can change the TSN.

[mattack]

It's more work for a box to digitally record an analog signal than record a stream already in digital form.

AFAIK, all cable DVRs can record from the analog channels too.

If you have absolute proof of one example to the contrary, please provide it.

As has been said many times, even with "digital cable", the channels under number 100 are usually all analog.

CableCard is required to support analog too. (I know that's somewhat orthogonal, but cable boxes/cable DVRs often are cablecard too.)

[terryfoster]

AFAIK, all cable DVRs can record from the analog channels too.

If you have absolute proof of one example to the contrary, please provide it.

As has been said many times, even with "digital cable", the channels under number 100 are usually all analog.

CableCard is required to support analog too. (I know that's somewhat orthogonal, but cable boxes/cable DVRs often are cablecard too.)

Yes most/all cable co DVRs record analog. CableCard does not need to support analog as analog channels do not need to be decrypted, I would be surprised if CableCards support analog signals.

[Troy J B]

AFAIK, all cable DVRs can record from the analog channels too.

If you have absolute proof of one example to the contrary, please provide it.



The motorola 3412/3416 are digital only. See the AVS thread Official Comcast 3412 & 3416 STB Discussion (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=604142)

Also the Motorola DCT700 (http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/products/dct700/) is digital only.

Troy

[CloudsBreak]

With the series 3 how many shows you think you could record at once... I heard it has or will have like 4 - 6 tuners... so if thats true for sake of argument does that mean anyone who has a series 3 could record 4 - 6 shows at once ??? I mean I could care less about HD , I can live with just my regular digital cable etc... but if a Series three will mean I can record more than two shows which is all the S2 DTs can do than I will just save my lifetime sub for a S3 when they come out so I will be able to recor more than two shows at once and still have a kick azz DVR with a lifetime sub , heh...

Also the S2 DTs are digital ready if you have a cable card right... I cant remember but a friend wants to know...

[btwyx]

With the series 3 how many shows you think you could record at once...2.

Just like the existing Dual Tuner TiVos. You may count 6 tuners, but like the HR10-250 I'd expect they're going to be folded into 2 "virtual tuners". Each virtual tuner can record using either an NTSC, ATSC or Cablecard physial tuner. Its a lot less confusing that way.

[CloudsBreak]

2.

Just like the existing Dual Tuner TiVos. You may count 6 tuners, but like the HR10-250 I'd expect they're going to be folded into 2 "virtual tuners". Each virtual tuner can record using either an NTSC, ATSC or Cablecard physial tuner. Its a lot less confusing that way.
Well assuming you can only record 2 shows at once with the S3 then I shouldnt bother waiting for an S3 and I should go ahead and just get a S2 DT to use with my lifetime sub... either way more input / clarification on my original question is always appreciated ;-)

[btwyx]

Well assuming you can only record 2 shows at once with the S3 then I shouldnt bother waiting for an S3 and I should go ahead and just get a S2 DT to use with my lifetime sub... either way more input / clarification on my original question is always appreciated ;-)Reasons to get an S3 would be:

• You want to record HD.

• You want to record more than 1 digital cable channel at once

• You want to record a digital cable channel digitally.

All three apply to me, and I'm going to be trying an S3.

[btwyx]

Also the S2 DTs are digital ready if you have a cable card right... I cant remember but a friend wants to know...They only have analog inputs, you can control 1 cable box if you have digital cable, and you can't record the digital signal directly, they don't do cablecard.

[gastrof]

So can I call directv and ask them for a cablecard and use that with series 2? I haven't heard of that before. Thanks!!!

As Zeo pointed out, DirecTV isn't a cable company, so a cable card wouldn't work with DirecTV. :confused:

Also, we're talking about series THREE machines that'll be able to use the cards. Not series 2.

As for DirecTV, there have already been TiVo boxes that were also DirecTV receivers, including HD receivers.


Oh, and if a cable company pays $400+ for a hd dvr why do they only rent it out for $10-15 a month?

They get the price back over a period of time? And then the rest is gravy?

[gastrof]

Well assuming you can only record 2 shows at once with the S3 then I shouldnt bother waiting for an S3 and I should go ahead and just get a S2 DT to use with my lifetime sub... either way more input / clarification on my original question is always appreciated ;-)



A dual tuner series 2 will have only the ability to tune analog digital channels, or take the feed off a digital cable box.

It won't be able to tune digital cable channels on its own.

A series 3 will be able to tune digital channels on its own, both OTA and cable (with cable card), if I understand right.

[dt_dc]

I would be surprised if CableCards support analog signals.All CableCard hosts must support reception of unscrambled analog channels under the current CableLabs specs:
http://www.opencable.com/downloads/specs/OC-SP-HOST1.0-CFR-C01-040629.pdf
http://www.opencable.com/downloads/specs/OC-SP-HOST2.0-CFR-I08-060413.pdf

[dt_dc]

AFAIK, all cable DVRs can record from the analog channels too.

If you have absolute proof of one example to the contrary, please provide it.In adition to the Motorola boxes mentioned above, Scientific Atlanta is releasing it's own all digital boxes.

Explorer 8240 series (DVR):
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7007202.pdf

Explorer 940 (regular STB):
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6324259.html?display=Breaking+News

One of the prime motivators for cable companies to implement digital simulcast is to be able to start using these all-digital (no analog) boxes ... which are cheaper than the boxes that include analog.

[classicsat]

I thought this depended on when lifetime was purchased. Doesn't it depend on that January 2000 date that has been discussed here before?

-Bruce

Yes, but since no Series 2s were around then, Lifetime on a Series 2 won't apply. AFAIK, if you trasnfer Lifetime from such a Series 1, the Lifetime terms changes to the box, and ergo non-transferrable.

[moyekj]

Aside from Switched Digital Video (SDV) which we have talked about at length as a problem for the S3 series looks like there is another wrench with CableCard technology.

In my market: Cox Orange County, CA the CableCard channel mapping is not identical to digital box mapping. For example, PBS channel 6 which was traditionally analog was recently (2 months ago) mapped to the digital simulcast version. So with cable company digital set top box or DVR when you tune to channel 6 you get the digital version of the channel. This I can confirm not only by looking at the picture but also through Motorola DCT6416 diagnostics you can see the frequencies of the channels you are currently tuned to. However, with CableCard when tuning to channel 6 you still get the analog version of the channel. The digital version can be obtained by tuning to channel 806. However, channel 806 is not a recognized channel in the lineup and hence there are no guide listings for it and cannot be tuned to using cable company set top boxes.

So I had assumed that CableCard maps channels identically to digital set top boxes, but obviously that assumption doesn't seem to hold true in this case, and so that can have implications in terms of guide listings.

[classicsat]

Laundry list of replies (in no particulat order):

S3 will record two channels at once, from any combination of sources.
The way I envision it is two tuner chains, each capable of doing Digital (with or without CC)/Analog, and Antenna or Cable.

The S2DT will also record two channels, both from analog cable, or one each form analog cable and an external cable or satellite STB (Cablecard or otherwise). The DT itself has no digital tuners whatsover.

Analog cable doesn't need CC, and CC doesn't need analaog cable. Just the CC spec requires a hos have an analog tuner.

[vman41]

So I had assumed that CableCard maps channels identically to digital set top boxes, but obviously that assumption doesn't seem to hold true in this case, and so that can have implications in terms of guide listings.

Does cablecard control the channel mapping or just the decryption once the box it is plugged into to tunes in a channel. If the latter, TiVo can deal with it via an appropriate channel lineup for the cablecard users.

[terryfoster]

So I had assumed that CableCard maps channels identically to digital set top boxes, but obviously that assumption doesn't seem to hold true in this case, and so that can have implications in terms of guide listings.

TiVo has their own guide information AND is willing to create new guides when necessary. Channel mapping is nothing to worry about.

[moyekj]

TiVo has their own guide information AND is willing to create new guides when necessary. Channel mapping is nothing to worry about. That's good to know, thanks. Now if the headend channel assignments move around a lot then you will need to be constantly communicating with Tivo to get changes made which is not really plausible.

[terryfoster]

It's not likely the headend channel assignments will move very often, but TiVo already has a system in place to deal with channel assignment changes and I would expect it wouldn't be a big deal.

[jfh3]

Aside from Switched Digital Video (SDV) which we have talked about at length as a problem for the S3 series looks like there is another wrench with CableCard technology.

In my market: Cox Orange County, CA the CableCard channel mapping is not identical to digital box mapping. For example, PBS channel 6 which was traditionally analog was recently (2 months ago) mapped to the digital simulcast version. So with cable company digital set top box or DVR when you tune to channel 6 you get the digital version of the channel. This I can confirm not only by looking at the picture but also through Motorola DCT6416 diagnostics you can see the frequencies of the channels you are currently tuned to. However, with CableCard when tuning to channel 6 you still get the analog version of the channel. The digital version can be obtained by tuning to channel 806. However, channel 806 is not a recognized channel in the lineup and hence there are no guide listings for it and cannot be tuned to using cable company set top boxes.

So I had assumed that CableCard maps channels identically to digital set top boxes, but obviously that assumption doesn't seem to hold true in this case, and so that can have implications in terms of guide listings.

Sounds like you need to call Cox and complain. They can't use the same number for two different channels. I suspect the mapping of 6 on the STB is what's wrong.

[moyekj]

Sounds like you need to call Cox and complain. They can't use the same number for two different channels. I suspect the mapping of 6 on the STB is what's wrong. No the STB mapping is correct - i.e. they want people with digital STB to get the digital version of the channel instead of the analog. This is how Comcast is handling their digital simulcast rollout and it is intentional. One advantage is that an all digital set top box can then be deployed and the same channel lineup applies. The error is that CableCard should be mapping channel 6 to the digital simulcast RF channel and it's not. It could well be that since the digital simulcast rollout started fairly recently (last 3 months) that they won't match STB and CableCard mappings until the rollout is complete. Calling Cox CSRs is worthless since they won't even acknowledge (maybe they don't even know about it) that digital simulcast rollout is happening and generally I know more about what is happening with their headend assignments than they do.

[CloudsBreak]

If the DT cant tune digital channels without the STB then I would be better off just eaiting for an S3 that can tune digital channels to use my lifetime sub on...

[jfh3]

The error is that CableCard should be mapping channel 6 to the digital simulcast RF channel and it's not.

It's still wrong. If it were me, I'd escalate to level 2/3 tech support and get them to provision my card correctly.

Looks like I'd better get ready for some fun getting ready for Comcast. I'm going to want a properly provisioned m-stream CableCard about two days after I have my Series 3 hooked up ...

[passatdream]

What about network security? Will the Series 3 support anything more secure than WEP? I'm hoping for WPA and really hoping for WPA-PSK.

C.

[Rosenkavalier]

What about network security? Will the Series 3 support anything more secure than WEP? I'm hoping for WPA and really hoping for WPA-PSK.

I'm no wireless guru, but since the S3 will have wired ethernet only, it would be up to the 802.11x bridge (that you provide) to determine the level of security...right?

[classicsat]

What about network security? Will the Series 3 support anything more secure than WEP? I'm hoping for WPA and really hoping for WPA-PSK.

C.

Likely not, but who knows by then.

[Jonathan_S]

I'm no wireless guru, but since the S3 will have wired ethernet only, it would be up to the 802.11x bridge (that you provide) to determine the level of security...right?You should still be able to plug a wireless adaptor into one of the S3s USB slots, so the type of wireless security it can natively support is still important.

[terryfoster]

You should still be able to plug a wireless adaptor into one of the S3s USB slots, so the type of wireless security it can natively support is still important.

I think you missed the point of the post you quoted. Sure you can plug in a wireless adapter into the USB slot and get WEP. If you're really concerned about wireless security then plug in a wireless bridge into the ethernet port and you configure the security on the bridge device.

[Jonathan_S]

I think you missed the point of the post you quoted. Sure you can plug in a wireless adapter into the USB slot and get WEP. If you're really concerned about wireless security then plug in a wireless bridge into the ethernet port and you configure the security on the bridge device.Yes you can do that. That's always been an option, even with the existing S2 units (well ok, with them you use a USB to ethernet adaptor and plug that into the bridge).

But the post I replied to implied that the S3 only supported the built in ethernet and all wireless would have to use a bridge.

Edit: Which to the best of my knowledge is incorrect. See previous post.

[Rosenkavalier]

But the post I replied to implied that the S3 only supported the built in ethernet and all wireless would have to use a bridge.

Of course, as I wrote that post, and I don't actually know what I'm talking about... :)

[jfh3]

But the post I replied to implied that the S3 only supported the built in ethernet and all wireless would have to use a bridge.


Obviously, we don't know yet - but I'd be very surprised if the S3 didn't at least support the Tivo wireless G adapter.

[CloudsBreak]

Sorry if this has already been asked but as far as the new DT's are concerned...

1. If the new DT's can't tune digital channels then how can it record them... only thing I can guess is with a STB...

2. If the new DT's can't tune digital channels then why would they need a CableCard ???

Please try not to get to technical with your answers as half the time the technical stuff just goes right over my head...

[terryfoster]

1. If the new DT's can't tune digital channels then how can it record them... only thing I can guess is with a STB...

2. If the new DT's can't tune digital channels then why would they need a CableCard ???

1. YES

2. We're actually talking about the Series 3 not the S2-DT in this thread. The S3 will be able to tune digital channels and use a cable card. There is a demo video available about the S3, you should check it out.

[ZeoTiVo]

Obviously, we don't know yet - but I'd be very surprised if the S3 didn't at least support the Tivo wireless G adapter.


we know it will support the TiVo wireless G adapter and other adapters currently being used on Series 2 boxes. That was talked about at CES.


now if it was me I would eitehr use the TiVo wireless G adapter since it is designed to work very effeciently with the TiVo and Linux drivers or else I would use a wireless bridge in the ethernet port. using the ethernet port is the least drain on internal TiVo box resources adn it affords you any options you want on your own wireless network as you can buy a bridge that will do any kind of security, MIMO and all that fun stuff.


actually I use a wired network and don't worry about security at all :) and get good speed all the time

[jfh3]

we know it will support the TiVo wireless G adapter and other adapters currently being used on Series 2 boxes. That was talked about at CES.


Ah - I'd missed that. Thanks!

As for the connections, I agree. Wired is best overall, but, other than the current WEP/WPA concern (overdone for most), the Tivo wireless G adapter seems to achieve near wired throughput.

[MichaelK]

It's not likely the headend channel assignments will move very often, but TiVo already has a system in place to deal with channel assignment changes and I would expect it wouldn't be a big deal.

Just to add for those that don’t know-
There’s a tivo guy who’s job it is to fix just such issues. You can PM him here or email him, probably pm or email any of the tivo folks and they will let him know. Poke around with search and you can find who it is. I’v contacted him a couple times years ago when directv was screwing up the guide. Tivo has nothing to do with the directv guide but he still spoke to directv to get them to fix it. I’m not sure if THAT particular relationship still works but I would bet you can still contact him and quickly resolve any isses with Tivo guiodes like the series 3 will have