Sky+ Discussion

[dsloper]

Automan, considering your latest comment re pause and record. why does it not do this when a recordin is interrupted by a reboot? twice now my sky+ has rebooted during a recording, and although it starts recording again once rebooted, it wipes all that was recorded before the reboot. You'd think it would append in the way you described!?

[TivoUK]

I got the new Radio Times today (on a Sunday no less!!) and it has a great ad. in the centre for Sky + - Tivo could take a look at it and learn I think. A lot better than anything I have seen from Tivo yet.

Also, does anyone know if the Premiere Widescreen showings of the Star Wars films listed in the RT will be in DD?

[Automan]

dsloper,
I must admit that's why I always thought it would erase what it had recorded (as it does when it gets a software update etc).

I can only assume that planned record jobs in the planner always expect no interruptions / pauses.

Perhaps they will change it in a future s/w release?

Re the four page - yes four page add in the centre of next weeks Radio Times (8-14 dec) it quite impresive and of course mentions Dolby Digital a lot and the new ability for 30x fast forward and something called "Multi-Tasking" http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 12-02-2001).]

[Automan]

Gladiator Is Really Great In 5.1

If you were just on the edge of buying a Sky+ to go with your TiVo and you have a Dolby Digital system with a spare opitcal in you must buy one.

The Sound and picture must near as good as the DVD with a lower per movie cost.

Order your box now!

P.S.
You don't have to pay the £10.00 a month if you only want the DD and a nice fast Digibox to go with your TiVo.
Infact you can take the 40Gb disc out and add it to your TiVo.

Automan

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 12-02-2001).]

[mrtickle]

Originally posted by Automan:
Gladiator Is Really Great In 5.1


I could have told you that over a year ago, when I bought the DVD with DTS-ES sound.. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


The Sound and picture must near as good as the DVD with a lower per movie cost.


Nah, can't be - Sky's bitrates are nowhere near 10Mb/s, they'll never transmit DTS, and they shout over the end credits. Cheaper though if you have time to watch enough movies. My problem is that I haven't even got enough time to watch the DVDs I already own!

[Automan]

mrtickle,
I only said "near as good" http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

I also have "Gladiator" on DVD along with another eight or nine hundred that I also have no time to watch. My last two DVD's of the original Star Trek arrived today and I've yet to watch dvd 36,37 or 38 - let alone 39&40. I'm also about 3 dvd's behind viewing my new Stargate ones http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

With the two Boxoffice widescreen channels it will allow one to get a pretty good idea of what the dvd of a movie will be like and thus you can then decide if the dvd purchase can be justified or if you think the movie is the kind you want to watch more than once.

Or of course wait till it makes it to 305 and save another £3.00

Perhaps we will get DTS when HDTV starts up using the old ITV Digital channels http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 12-03-2001).]

[guydewdney]

Automan - have you tried putting the sky digital optical audio out conversion in? http://www.sc-elec.demon.co.uk/digibox.htm
has details. The question is - does this pass the DD signal?
In your opinion, if you had the above mod, and a tivo, is it worth 300 squid for another PVR?

[mrtickle]

Automan has Sky+ which already has an optical digital out, so he doesn't need a conversion. The version of the EPG which the Sky+ box uses has an extra "language" of dolby digital AFAICR. You select this to get the DD stream passed out (to your decoder and amp).

The interesting question at the moment is whether or not the software for the ordinary Sony digiboxes will get the teeny weeny update required to add the DD stream to its sound setup menu. When the Sony boxes were first launched the output was disabled completely, but it was enabled with a software update. No-one knows either way what'll happen this time!

[guydewdney]

sure mrtickle - I appreciate that - but being the techno junkie he seems to be I thought I'd ask... Has anyone had the above mod done, and since watched any 5.1 movies - i.e gladiator?
And, whilst on that subject, does the tivo have a similar audio only decoder chip (with the risk of being flamed for asking the same q again...) Or...where can I find a circuit diagram / block diagram of the tivo.
or is this off topic?
Guy

[cyril]

Originally posted by Automan:
TiVo still has a good market in the UK and of course SkyToday I also spotted (in error) something else Sky+ can do that TiVo can't.

You can (sort of) pause while you are making a recording http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

For example, you press record at the start of Stargate. At the start of the first break you press rec to stop recording. At the end of the break you press record again and so on...


You CAN (sort of) do this with Tivo too... if you are not using analogue terrestial you can just disconnect the aux scart and then reconnect it later... useful if you want to edit out adverts.

This also gives you an infinite pause when you are watching the live buffer, so you could press pause, disconnect the aux scart, go on holiday, come back and reconnect the aux scart and watch the live buffer weeks later!

Just make sure you get the sad-faced Tivo and 'unable to display' message while disconnected.

[guydewdney]

wouldn't it be easier just to turn off the cable / sky box /video player, rather than scablbling round unplugging scart leads.
That is if your setup looks anything like mine (2x vcr, tape player,, dvd, sky box, amp......anything can be recorded to 1 vcr)

[cyril]

Originally posted by guydewdney:
wouldn't it be easier just to turn off the cable / sky box /video player, rather than scablbling round unplugging scart leads.
That is if your setup looks anything like mine (2x vcr, tape player,, dvd, sky box, amp......anything can be recorded to 1 vcr)
Of course it would! Your box must be off and not in standby for the trick to work in most cases.
However, if you don't have another source, you won't know when the adverts have finished to turn your box back on!

Even better to use an infrared scart switcher.

Incidentally, my setup has about 48 set-top boxes with more spaghetti than Rome!


[This message has been edited by cyril (edited 12-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by cyril (edited 12-03-2001).]

[guydewdney]

thats just plain silly. I only ever watch about a dozen channels.
I suppose at leat you could reduce that to 24 sky+ boxes though http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Guy

[dsloper]

Well, for the first time since having the sky+ box, the old reboots (or switch-offs are back). Thankfully on both occasions so-far I have been watching TV so have noticed them. First was 7:15 thursday, then 7:25 tonight. So either the problem is back, or my box does not like eastenders. hmmm.

[mrtickle]

Originally posted by guydewdney:
sure mrtickle - I appreciate that - but being the techno junkie he seems to be I thought I'd ask... Has anyone had the above mod done, and since watched any 5.1 movies - i.e gladiator?


Ah right. In that case, as I understand it, if you do that mod you'd end up with a digibox like the current Sony ones - with a digital out for standard sound. You'd be in the same situation as the Sony box owners - needing an EPG software update so that the DD stream can be selected in the languages menu. Otherwise the only thing that comes out of the digital out is normal stereo sound. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif


And, whilst on that subject, does the tivo have a similar audio only decoder chip (with the risk of being flamed for asking the same q again...) Or...where can I find a circuit diagram / block diagram of the tivo.
or is this off topic?


No idea soz, but I guess it's a bit more on-topic than a Sky+ discussion in a TiVo forum http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[paulpenny]

Originally posted by Automan:


P.S.
You don't have to pay the £10.00 a month if you only want the DD and a nice fast Digibox to go with your TiVo.


Automan



Yep, that's what I have done. And boy is it fast! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Paul

[jont]

While we're on the digital audio out ...

Is the digital out 'record' blocked for the digital radio stations ??

I was trying to record 'Im Sorry I Haven't A Clue' on Radio 4 from the optical out on Sky+ to the optical in on my Sony 940 minidisc deck and it wouldn't deliver a signal ... ???

It did however deliver a signal when I did the same thing with the Oasis concert on Box Office a few weeks ago ...

Had to revert back to analogue cables in order to record ...

Any ideas ?

[Automan]

I've never tried to record the radio from Sky+ optical output - I shall try tonight.

Automan.

[Automan]

If you have a chance you might want to look at this thread of folks who love their Sky+ boxes http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14776 And after Joan of Arc in DD5.1 I shall try a minidisc recording from a radio channel.

P.S. Galaxy Quest was not bad either but I've got the DTS DVD of that.

Automan.

[Automan]

I've now tried to record a few radio channels also with my Sony 940 Minidisc deck and it seems happy to record them all. The channels I tried were 854,851,859 all at 48KHz.

The only one it did not like was 305 "Cannot Copy" - That of course was Dolby Digital 3/2 as it said on my two decoders http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Automan.

[TivoUK]

Anyone know if the Star Wars films on tomorrow will be in DD???

[Automan]

Star Wars IV - A New Hope - No, only in I think they used to call it "stereo" http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

A couple of nights ago they showed Mumford - The sound was a good two seconds out of sync.

"Three Kings", "Double Jeopardy" & "Any Given Sunday" all seemed however to have healthy DD soundtracks.
"Any Given Sunday" has very good sound and starts with a football with "Wilson" on it - for any castaway fans http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

It's reported that the DD sysmbol will be in the programs EPG data to indicate multichannel sound. No sign of this so far and perhaps it requires this months feature software update to work.

Also if Sky+ box serial numbers are sequential it would seem at least 156,000 units exist.

Of course only Sky know how many boxes they have switched on.

Automan.

[TivoUK]

Beggar!

Fingers crossed for the rest of the Star Wars films on today http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

[ALanJay]

Star Wars in AC-3 but sounds like 2.0 - just dipped into it. There was a trail for the Widescreen Box office movies that had the details that they were in Dolby Digital 5.1 for users of Sky+ boxes with external Dolby 5.1 amlifier / decoders.

Which is the first reference I have seen to DD 5.1.

[Automan]

Alan,
It seemed to me all four movies were only in 2/0 - Prologic (:

Do you think that over 150,000 Sky+ boxes could have been sold already?

Automan.

[Automan]

"The Bone Collector" was in 5.1 and I see on Monday "The Matrix" is on - I imagine this will also be in 5.1

Also this week the following movies are on...

Summer Of Sam
Message In A Bottle
The Last Starfighter
28 Days
American Beauty
Bicentennial Man
Patch Adams
Jakob the Liar
Jack Frost
Galaxy Quest - Confirmed 5.1
Anna and the King

A Busy Week http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Automan.

[ALanJay]

Originally posted by Automan:
Alan,
It seemed to me all four movies were only in 2/0 - Prologic (:


Most likely - remember that Sky need to ask for the movie to be provided with a 5.1 soundtrack and so the most likely thing is that only movies that they have requested from the distributor in the last few months will have both the stereo and 5.1 soundtracks.



Do you think that over 150,000 Sky+ boxes could have been sold already?

Automan.

I would be surprised - 50,000 sounds like a large number for the last 3 months if all the discussions about a limited number of people being trained to install is true but it could be more 150,000 is about 10,000 a week.

[Automan]

I was wrong http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

"The Matrix", the movie Sky used for weeks for Dolby Digital tests is being transmitted in 2/0

Automan.

[ALanJay]

Sky gave a list of what movies are in Dolby Digital 5.1 during December http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=4156 the Matrix wasn't on the list.

FYI Sky send out weekly lists of information about upcoming programmes and they are not mentioning if movies are in DD 5.1 at present - I'll try to find out if they will provide this information.

[dsloper]

Automan,

Had a slight variant of your number 15 bug tonight (as per your bug list)

Blue screen of death on all channels, could change channel and search and scan but no picture and sound. Could play all old recordings. The variant was that I set the current program to record, and it did, so I could watch it a few seconds timeshifted. Once that program had finished, a reboot cured.

Strange thing is it happened during eastenders again, the only program that is ever on when my box plays up.

[ALanJay]

Managed to get froma contact a sky a list of upcoming movies over the next few months that should be in Dolby 5.1 the licat can be found at: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=4421

[Automan]

dsloper,
Yes it seems most problems now are with the ability to watch livetv.

It seems the recording engine (the TiVo like bit) of Sky+ keeps on working but livetv crashes.

I suspect it maybe the interactive rubbish that certain channels pump down you box and I think it effects Sky+ boxes in much the same way as a normal Digibox - they crash / reboot.

Perhaps this months reported s/w upgrade will help matters (the one that's been mentioned on chn 999 and in the Radio Times).

Automan.

[Automan]

The New Software Has Arrived

Ver 1.22j

1. 30x FF/RW
2. Press Stop to return to Sky+ Planner from playing a recording.
3. Jump To recording end (via bookmark menu).
4. User defined start playing from time (to skip the padding etc).

My box had not got this when I left home this morning but the above items are reported at http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15062

And with luck some "bug fixes"

Automan.

[dsloper]

Don't know if the upgrade was done to my box last night, but it was on standby when i got up this morning. So here's hoping.

[Marc UK]

Yep, I got it this morning. 30 xFF is brilliant.

Marc

[dallardice]

No manual recording yet? (DigitalSpy seems to be down at the moment so I can't check the thread)

Bit annoying if you're going away for 2 weeks over xmas and new year and you want to record the new year shows....

[ChrisA]

I have posted to the digital spy thread on this as well.
Only managed to do this on one recording so far but might be worth keeping an eye on.
30X FF, on last ads on "Girl Cops" recorded last night. Did not work, picture switched repeatedly between a couple of frames. When I went back to 12X or less everything OK. This was repeatable at this point in this recording. Tried other recordings and they seems OK. Has any one noticed this situation with 30X FF?

[Automan]

Unhappy - My box has no new software even after giving it a prod.

I hope this does not mean that hardware variant's already exist.

My unit is a 9F200 - my first unit was a 9F300 and now people have 9F600 (if these codes actualy indicate anything).

Automan.

[dsloper]

Have the new software, and a couple of things to note that I don;t think are mentioned above:

1. My box had the bug where nearly everytime I FF at high speed, picture would freeze for 20-30 seconds, and then continue to fast forward. I can no longer replicate this so far.

2. It appears you can now also jump to the end of a program by holding down the FF key whilst playing (I Don;t remember being able to do this before).

Darren

[jont]

Mine arrived aswell !!

Didn't have much chnace last night to thoroughly play but looks like they may have fixed the audio dropout after ff/rew through programmes ... ??

[Automan]

Darren,
Recordings now put a bookmark at the recording end and thus holding down the ff key takes you to the next bookmark - 15secs from recording end.

I still have no new software on my box http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

Automan (feeling left out).

[philliplewisuk]

I have sky + and tivo.. tivo is the best. sky + is crap.. there is hardly any thing to do on there. hard to setup season passes! I use it for when i want to record 2 channels...

http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Also.. I have a sky + box with the new LMB for 150 pounds. if any one wants it. I bought it and when they came to install it they gave me another one haha!

[Automan]

philliplewisuk,
You may get a good price for your spare Sky+ on ebay – more than £150.00 I imagine.
A lot of folks would pay that price for a good Digibox plus of course Dolby Digital sound.

I think it a bit hard to say Sky+ is crap but it is very simplistic compared with TiVo and most UK consumers are used to Digiboxes and VCR.

TiVo is maybe just a little to complex for the man on the street to appreciate.

Automan.

[jwestoby]

OK, new software.

Fun at 30X, jump back to planner very good (saves mute, guide, 0 then n-down), start position - so-so.

BUT...

WHAT CABBAGE BRAIN TOOK OUT THE 'DELETE CONFIRM' ON UNVIEWED RECORDINGS????????

My other half lost a Millenium because of this - she was not happy.

Sky, if you're listening - put it back. This makes it so dangerous to delete recordings. (I don't leave it to the box as I don't want the aggravation of going through several screens to find what I want.)

Have I made my point?


------------------
Jim Westoby

[mrtickle]

Yes, you have. But in the wrong place. Sky are not here and they are not listening - this is a TiVo forum not a Sky+ one!

[jwestoby]

Funny I thought this was a Sky+ topic.

Also latter point not true.

When I did the consumer research thing, we spoke to a person from Sky there (I won't say who but high up) who knew of this forum and AutoMan and asked if I were he. (I resisted the temptation to steal the great kudos that AuoMan has and said no.)

Can't remember if he mentioned DigitalSpy and I've never been on there anyway.


------------------
Jim Westoby

[mrtickle]

Fair enough - but it's still a Sky+ topic in a TiVo forum. We shouldn't expect Sky to take notice of bug reports for that reason.

[stephen93]

I am probably going over old ground but the thread is too long for me to find the answer, I'm definately considering having Sky+ to run along side TiVo, the only thing bugging me is, will TiVo change the channels on Sky+ as it does with TiVo?

Thanks Steve

[Automan]

I think I just answered that somewhere else...

Yes it does it's under pace code 20009 or maybe 20010

Automan.

[Automan]

Depressed I thought I force my box to try for another update.

After 20 mins on the screen saying "This May Take 10 mins" I thought it was time to panic!

Only really one option - turn off the power (from my new radio controlled remote mains power module).

Turned it back on waited a minute or so and saved! it still worked and also had the new software http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

No real negatives except that warning is given on delete of an un-viewed recording, which I think is really a backward step (as stated by others).

I also see you can press backup from playing a recording to return to the Sky+ planner and you also get an onscreen banner at recording end rather than it just entering pause.

x3 ff has gone http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif so you now get x2 x6 x12 x30 so my Pronto remote that I had set up to give me x6 now gives me x12

The goto x minutes and instant 15 seconds from recording end are handy to skip the padding and check you got the full recording.

30x FF also seems to work very well with still a perfect picture and return to real time play.

I note still no indication of DD broadcasts in the epg guide and I shall check to see if any other bugs have been fix that are on my list. I shall add no warning before delete to the list.

Automan.

[guydewdney]

http://www.whatvideotv.com/news/index

sky+ 5.1 cutting out......? very short 'news' article, but thought you defectors would be interested! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Automan]

Only problems I've seen (or should I say heard) with Dolby Digital are.

1. Sound Sync - very poor on some movies - Mumford nearly 2 seconds out! Last nights Asterix film was also slightly out.

2. Audio level is low compared with other channels - If you select a none DD channel or go to the EPG get your ear plugs ready!

Other than on the first night where both picture and sound were defective - so much so they stop the movie it's been okay.

One plus point - no more talkovers during the end credits http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

I don't think their kit can mix the Sky announcer and the Dolby Digital soundtrack together - shame...

However on a plus point no one has yet to report the blue screen of death since their box received the latest software update from Sky.

Also fast forward seems now okay on channels with low data rates (sometimes the picture would freeze when in x12).

Automan.

[Automan]

Whoops!
The Asterix movie shown last night on Sky 305 was a French movie dubbed into English 5.1 - I suspect this was actually the problem rather than it being Sky's fault.

Automan.

[GarethR]

TiVo is good but has not changed much from day 1 so it out of fashion (from a gadget freaks point a view, not a sensible person who expects to get years of service out of his kit)

Of course - but then, gadget freaks are completely unrepresentative of the market as a whole!

As far as Joe Public is concerned, TiVo and Sky+ are as new as each other, and each will have its own appeal. TiVo scores over Sky+ by being cheaper and working with just about any broadcast platform, Sky+ scores over TiVo by being a space-saving one-box decoder/recorder and being able to record two programmes at once - but then again, that's likely to be the kind of functionality that looks great on paper but is rarely, if ever used by real people who aren't TV zombies... unless Sky starts deliberate simultaneous scheduling of its most popular programming to try and drive Sky+ box sales, of course.

[This message has been edited by GarethR (edited 12-17-2001).]

[Automan]

GarethR,
Sky+ can't really record two things at once yet...

I think Sky+'s main point is the picture & sound quality - It's as good as you can possibly get from the current Sky Digital platform.

Some of it's other features are nowhere as good as TiVo and I guess they never will.

But for me, Picture and sound quality are paramount.

Tonight Sky is showing Mumford again and surprise, surprise the sound is still well out of sync!

It seems they are aware of this, as chn305 has switched back to 48Khz PCM (after the movie started).

I did also telephone Sky and got to talk to someone within a minute. All they would say is they value all user feedback.

Automan.

[GarethR]

I think Sky+'s main point is the picture & sound quality - It's as good as you can possibly get from the current Sky Digital platform

But that's very unlikely to be a major concern of the non-gadget-freak mass of the general public.

They really don't see picture quality in the way we do. Even if they did a direct A/B comparison of Sky+ and TiVo they either wouldn't see the difference, or wouldn't care if they could.

Remember, the great mass of the public is still very happy with its misaligned, rusty roof aerials (or even set-top aerials) going into its Matsui TVs with accompanying mono VHS decks (connected via RF, not AV line inputs, natch).

The public buys on price and convenience, and at this precise moment TiVo is the better deal, not least because it works even if you've only got an analogue aerial. It's not out of the question that, if certain cards are played correctly, TiVo could provide a gateway into digital TV for the majority of the public who are adamant they don't want it.

[VBaia]

Automan - I think you're the man to ask. I have a Sony s760u digibox and don't have the 2.8 EPG. A forced update bore no fruit. Should I be able to get the 2.8 update for my box ? I'm new to SkyDigital so it may be a stupid question. And yes, I know this is a TiVO forum, but I need to get Sky working first !

[Automan]

VBaia,
I don't think it availble yet for the 760 only the older 750

Sony boxes always get the updates last.

The best place to check for such things is http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/ who have forums just on Sky & ITV Digital platforms plus many more...

Automan.

[Hunty]

Finally got around to buying my Christmas Gadget, last year Tivo this year Sky plus.
It was installed and looks great however when the man came to activate the system he told me the sky computer system is down for a couple of hours, they are upgrading for the Euro!!!.
Just tried sky+ myself the system is down until at least tomorrow. Good start.
Couple of minor points
Do I have to have sky + connected to the telephone line (my original digibox with new £12 card is connected all teh time)
How do I know if I have the latest software EPG sky+1.22.j operating system 1.3.0B2

[Automan]

Hunty,
I should ring the Sky+ number and check with them about activating your Sky+ card - sometimes these install engineers infomation is suspect.

I think it's supposed to be ont the phone but if they have already set your old viewing card to work in it I thinks it's not really needed - except pay movies, interactive etc.

Your software is current (last weeks release) and the next new features are not now due till mid Jan.

Enjoy Sky+

Automan.

[This message has been edited by Automan (edited 12-19-2001).]

[Hunty]

Thanks for the info, got rid of my telephone extension cable going across the room :-)
I have tried sky twice now both times same answer system update is taking longer than expected try again tomorrow morning / lunchtime never mind I guess it will be worth it, at least the kids can watch kids channels whilst I watch golf - oh no the seasons just ended!!!

[Automan]

My box has now been going for six and a half days on the new software and so far it's been 100%

Also UK Gold have been adding lots more series links...

e.g. Doctor Who, Poldark

Automan.

[Automan]

A Digitalspy forum member reports the successful upgrade of his Sky+ with a 120Gb drive!

That's about 70hrs at broadcast quality.

Next, the 160Gb variant...

Automan.

[spstanley93]

Can anyone tell me how TiVo will record from Sky+ please, when Sky+ is recording. I hope this is possibly as my Sky+ is not being installed until Jan,10th,2002?

Thanks Steve

[Hunty]

Sky+ is effectively two digiboxes in one. One that Tivo or your remote controls and the other signal is what sky+ records. Therefore yes Tivo can record one sky channel whilst sky+ will record a different sky channel - Magic!

[jont]

AFAIK sky+ will pass tivo the programme that it is recording, not another channel unless it is an analogue/ terrestrial channel

[spstanley93]

sorry Jont what does AFAIK mean plse? & I'm not totally with you, does that mean I'll only be able to record analogue on TiVo when Sky+ is recording? :( ;)

[jont]

Sorry Steve

AFAIK - As Far As I Know ...

I think this has been discussed before ... search some of the other posts to this thread ...

I gave up as I was fed up with my tivo not recording due to sky box crashes and gave it the ITV digital box by itself.

[spstanley93]

thanks jont, i use a Digimemo with my Sky box & since it has been connected my box hasn't gone into standby at all, I got it from www.pacelink.co.uk.

p.s. I've re registered because of the new forum on the old one i had 66 post but it's gone back to zero, any ideas?

[dsloper]

Sky+ records on it's own tuner. Tivo will record on the 'other tuner' (or the one that you watch normally). You cannot 'watch' sky+ recording tuner as it has no output so to speak. When you playback sky+ recordings, this effectivly disables the normal viewing of sky+.
In short: 1)you can record on sky+ and either the same or different channel on Tivo at the same time. 2)You can watch a Tivo recorded program and record a sky+ program at the same time. 3) You cannot watch a sky+ recording and record with tivo at the same time (you can, but you would record the sky+ playback, not the live TV). Hope this at least helps clarify (I have both and use as above).

[vic]

My sky+ digibox has locked up it won’t come out of standby even after forcing a software update. Is it possible to reset the bios to default similar to a computer?

[vic]

My sky+ digibox has locked up it won’t come out of standby even after forcing a software update. Is it possible to reset the bios to default similar to a computer?

[spstanley93]

thanks Disloper, so i will be able to watch a recording on sky+ & record another on sky+ at the same time? but if i try & record on TiVo it will record what i'm watching, have i got it do you think?:) :)

[dsloper]

spstanley93: that's right

[jameseast]

Vic - Have you tried ringing Sky Customer Support?

------------
James East
Early TiVo adopter (October 2000)
Thomson 40hr Basic Model
SkyDigital and ITVdigital

[GarySargent]

Thread "Sky+" started by Vic has been merged into this thread (thanks for the excuse to try this new admin feature :))

[vic]

My sky+ digibox is back to normal. I left it unplugged for 24hrs and it sorted its self out.

[Automan]

Problems with Sky+ seem to be greatly reduced with the latest software 1.22j

I have now updated my list of problems and moved the ones that seem to have been resolved to a new page.

Enjoy http://www.hummer.co.uk/skyplus-bugs.html

Automan.

[Automan]

After 14 days The Sky+ Planner started to play up forcing me to restart the box.

See http://www.hummer.co.uk/duplicates.htm for details.

Automan.

[GarySargent]

Pah! Automan you wasted your 1000th post with a Sky+ post?! I'm going to have to dock a few hundred posts off you for that! :D

[vic]

I’ve noticed the hard disk in my sky+ digibox runs constantly, even when in standby. Is this normal?

[Automan]

I’ve noticed the hard disk in my sky+ Digibox runs constantly, even when in standby. Is this normal?

Vic,
Yes, the hard disk is always spinning just like TiVo and the cooling fan only starts when the internal box temperature reaches 48c (118f)

Gary,
I did not notice that I'd reached 1000! - Still it was on a sky+ negative.

Automan.

[dsloper]

Automan: looking at your latest pictures, it appears your free space % looks roughly the same as the disk usage bar. How have you got this to be accurate with an upgraded sky+?

Darren:confused:

[Automan]

Darren,
Once 25% of the disc is full it seems okay.

Empty Disc = 25% free
25% full disc = Disc Full
26% full disc = 74% free

With a 60Gig disc once at least 26% of the free space is used up the readings agree till it's filled up.

Automan.

[dsloper]

Just got home after the xmas break to find my sky+ locked on the 28th, with all recordings failed from then on. Same day as yours crashed automan:mad:

[Hunty]

Could somebody please explain why series links are not working or not yet fully available. The season pass of Tivo is one of its more valuable features and I assumed series link would be the same, only found one program that has the link button and that was coronation street a few episodes ago, and it only linked I think the next two.
thanks in advance

[GarySargent]

Sky+ relies on the broadcasters to properly supply season link information with their guide data. As you have found this extra information is few and far between. The broadcasters have little to gain - Sky+ is a very small user base.

TiVo on the other hand gets its revenue from supplying such information - the money its subscribers pay goes directly to pay for this value added feature. Except for errors - all regular programmes have a Season Pass available (similar to Sky's Season Link).

[mrtickle]

One other common misconception is that the series links are a Sky+ feature. They are not. There is one set of data for Sky and Sky+ and the series links are identical between the two. They have been available, the few that are there, since May 2001 when the personal planner was launched.

If you're a Sky+ owner disappointed at the number of series links, don't be fooled into thinking "it's new, the broadcasters haven't had a chance to implement many links yet". They'd had 8 months so far.

[Hunty]

Thanks for the info on Series link didn't really appretiate how it worked. Now starting to wonder why I pay £10 per month extra SKy+ is starting to look just like an updated VCR!

[Automan]

Re "Series Links",
I understand some of the broadcaster kit does not understand "Series Links" and until those channels update their kit you will find no series links on those channels.
e.g Sci-fi, CHN4 and many more...

Sky+ will however be getting a manual timer soon, making it even more like an old VCR.

The current "Series Link" format used by Sky+ is also very weak and are often broken by...

1. Data error
2. Next episode not on for more than seven days thus no next episode is found.
3. Clash with another recording can cause them to cancel.

Things may however improve in the next few months with a change to the EPG format just for the Sky+ box system.

P.S.
Enterprise has a "Series Link" on the first episode!

Automan.

[GarySargent]

Originally posted by Automan
Sky+ will however be getting a manual timer soon, making it even more like an old VCR.

Cool an expensive VCR - probably doesn't even do Videoplus :p

No one (hardly) used manual timers for padding on TiVo so I'd find it unlikely everyone on Sky+ would start using them - then again sounds like you ain't got a lot of choice! :D

[dsloper]

Newbug or extension of old: Recording enterprise tonight, and watching it live also. Paused for 7 minutes (phone rang). At next adverts tried to fast forward at 30 speed. Picture hung (seen before) and then jumped back to where i first paused. Could FF at 12 speed, but when clicked play jumped back to where i paused again. Has to go back to live tv. Once recorded, tried to start recording at various times. Always jumped to 11 minutes no matter how late I set start to. No FF at 30 but all other speeds worked ok. Previous and later recordings all work fine!. So,either a new bug or a bad block on the disk!!!

[Paj]

Or Sky thought the adverts in their new show were too important for you to miss. (insert sinister music here)

;)

[Automan]

Folks are now installing with success 160Gb drives in their Sky+ boxes :)

These should yield about 90hrs of broadcast quality recordings.

Still at least my one should have a fluid bearing drive and thus keep nice & quiet - I hope!

Automan.

[Hunty]

Automan
Where do I find instructions on upgrading my Sky+, thanks

[Rob Nespor Bellis]

Originally posted by Hunty
Automan
Where do I find instructions on upgrading my Sky+, thanks

[Not Automan :)]

I thought it was thus:

1. Remove power
2. Open case
3. Replace drive
4. Close case
5. Apply power

Rgds,

R.

[Automan]

Rob is correct, it's that easy...

See http://www.hummer.co.uk/disc-change.htm for some pictures.

Notes
1. After installing disc run housekeeping option from installers menu (if drive is second hand / used on another operating system).
2. t10 security bit needed to get cover off and open drivebay. £9.99 for a set from http://www.screwfix.com or your local maplins.

Automan.

[Hunty]

Rob and Automan, oops didn't realise it was that easy! looking to buy the new drive right now
thanks

[stephen93]

I have a dilemma, just had Sky+ installed 2 days ago, one problem is that when I'm watching programs recorded on Sky+ & TiVo is recording from Sky, it records what I'm viewing, is there anyway round this I know I could have my old Digibox connected to TiVo but it's in a cupbord now disconnected & I don't want to pay an extra £12 a month & another £25 for installation, anyone any ideas please.

Steve

just had a thought I could just make TiVo use the aerial tuner, but then I don't get widescreen or as good as picture, there must be another way!

[Automan]

Steve,
The only satisfactory approach is another Digibox...

I have my old Sony 750 hooked up to TiVo with just the free to air channels.

While I had my box open today (fitting my new Maxtor 4K080K4 drive) I noted a chip with the Dolby logo on.

Thus I think the “can the Sony box handle dd 5.1” question can finally be put to bed with the answer - no :(

A picture of this chip can be seen at http://www.hummer.co.uk/images/DDCHIP.JPG and the technical spec of the ship can be read at http://www.zoran.com/products/audio/zr38601.asp

So far, my new 80gig drive is A LOT quieter than the previous 4K060H3 :)

Don't Forget...
U571 on in DD5.1 tonight at 20:00 thanks to the above chip :)

Automan.

[stephen93]

just thought of a great idea, when watching a Live tv or something on Sky+ & TiVo pops up saying "the recorder want's to change channels etc.," click "stay on this channel" & record whatever TiVo is suggesting on Sky+ obviously you can't if Sky+ is already recording.:) :)

[Automan]

Beware of the 160Gb upgrade, problems have been reported.
The 120Gb upgrade seems safe.

This morning when I went into my living room and went over to my Sky+ box I thought it was making a little noise.

Panic over, it was my TiVo :)
Not that TiVo is noisey but my new fluid bearing drive in Sky+ is so quiet (so far).

I just hope my new Maxtor 4K080K4 keeps okay.

Automan.

[Automan]

I took another look at my noisy disc (before Maxtor replace it) and based on the volme name XTV_DSK_STR took me to http://www.nds.com and and this Acrobat document http://www.nds.com/pdfs/XTV_Content_Protection_datasheet.pdf which might explain why the main .str files on a Sky+ disc won't read under a Windows OS

This link may also be of some interest http://www.advanced-television.com/pages/pagesb/intnds.html

Automan.

[Automan]

See http://www.whatvideotv.com/testbench/frame.html?http://www.whatvideotv.com/testbench/SatelliteReceivers/Pace/PaceSky+.shtml

Automan.

[dsloper]

Automan, good review but not sure if I agree with their subscription wording of a minimum of a year. I agree you have to still subscribe to sky for a year (or i believe renew when getting sky+), but the £10 per month plus subscription can be cancelled at any time. I know I had it for a month, then cancelled for a month, and now have it again that there are program clashes. So I believe the sky+ part has no minimum term.

Is your experience the same?

[dallardice]

Odd that it doesn't mention the absence of Series Links on ITV1 and C4... might come as a surprise to some purchasers based on this review.

[Paul Dundas]

To be fair, ITV does now have Series Links (at least on ITV London).

Not that extensive but they're there for things like The Bill, Inspector Morse etc.

[Steve_K]

Did anyone see the resport at http://www.wotsat.com/ (the Jan 5th archive) that at most 1000 Sky+ boxes had been sold?

With sales that poor why would Sky develop it further or fix bugs?

steve

[dallardice]

Originally posted by Paul Dundas
To be fair, ITV does now have Series Links (at least on ITV London).


OK, I stand corrected. Thanks.

[Automan]

Did anyone see the resport at http://www.wotsat.com/ (the Jan 5th archive) that at most 1000 Sky+ boxes had been sold?

With sales that poor why would Sky develop it further or fix bugs?

steve

Steve,
The article was in error. Actual figures are between 10 & 20,000 units sold by the end of last November.

Wotsat do have another article on their server which is more accurate :)

If Sky hit their target of 100,000 units in one year at £10.00 a month I think they will be pretty happy...

I think that's £1M per month revenue!

I know what Del Trotter would say :)

Automan.

[gimble]

I thought that the reports that Sky+ had sold only 1,000+ units had been confirmed to be incorrect. Pace quoted that they have sold approx. 100,000 units and I thought that SKY said a while ago that they had passed 50,000. This would mean that already Sky+ owners heavily outnumber Tivo owners.

I can only see Sky+ getting further and furthr ahead. Especially given the following:
(1) Sky+ has better marketing - especially to the millions of existing Sky Digital subscribers. The average man on the street has heard of Sky but Tivo is almost totally unrecognised as a brand.
(2) I think that Sky+ has a "killer app" with its in-built twin digital tuner and Dolby 5.1 output.
(3) Tivo has no price advantage in most high street stores to tip the balance in its favour. This can only get worse as it looks like the main high street vendors are destocking Tivo.

For Tivo to have been around for well over a year and be on display in hundreds of high street store yet only sell 25,000 units is extremely poor going. I can understand why high street stores want nothing more to do with them and probably any future version of Tivo as well.

[cyril]

I personally believe that TiVo will outsell Sky+ in the long run. as their potential market is much bigger.

Sky+ is limited to the number of people who can have Sky dishes installed.

TiVo's lifetime sub makes it much cheaper in the long run as well.

If we get a TiVo with built in Sky digibox, like the States DTivo, this will crush Sky+.

I am very surprised that Sky has not opted to go with this route.
Perhaps Pace made them an offer they could not refuse?

[Automan]

I personally believe that TiVo will outsell Sky+ in the long run. as their potential market is much bigger.

True, Sky only now has 6 million potential customers plus maybe a few more if and when ITV Digital folds.

But Sky have a "Trump Card"! It's called "Marketing"

It's difficult to persuade the average punter to part with £200.00+ for a tin box with two lights on the front.

Where in the UK now can you see a TiVo in operation or even find out what it can really do for you?

I suspect you could make the list on the back of a postage stamp!

Automan.

[dallardice]

Originally posted by cyril
I personally believe that TiVo will outsell Sky+ in the long run. as their potential market is much bigger.

Sky+ is limited to the number of people who can have Sky dishes installed.


The problem is that people who haven't yet got Sky are not on the whole that interested in exploiting technology to enhance their TV viewing experience.

Most people have 4 or 5 channels, watch TV when they come in at night and might VCR the odd programme if they're going out (but are more likely not to since they haven't worked out how to stop the clock flashing 00:00).

Tell them that it's worth their while spending £500-ish on a box that sifts the best of TV for them, and they'll probably respond that TV isn't that important to them (or, that there isn't enough "best" to make it worth sifting). Try to get people to understand that they'll stop watching Live TV and instead watch from a pre-recoded list and you might as well be speaking Martian to them.

Yes, TiVo has the larger potential market. But at the moment the people that are buying PVRs are those with Sky, mostly. TiVo can soak up the DTT and DCAB market - but I think PVRs will remain a tough sell to analogue homes for a long time yet.

The market should be big enough for both Sky+ and TiVo in the long run - they serve different markets. In my opinion, the big win for Sky+ customers is letting someone watch live sport without disrupting recordings - but if you don't watch sport or have a small household that's irrelevant - so for me, TiVo works better in a small household where most of the TV viewing is communal and we have similar tastes, which TiVo now understands quite well.

I think TiVo and Sky+ will both end up doing well, assuming that they both have deep enough pockets to stick it out to profitability,

[cyril]

Hi, Automan and dallardice.

It's true that Sky's marketing has been more successful, and that there are probably only a few places where you can go to see TiVo in operation in the High Street.

However, TiVo is one of those rare products that once you have used for a while you are (99%) never going to go let go without a fight!

When I said long run, I should probably have said very long run.

Without major marketing and a brand name like Sony, TiVo faces a long struggle to win over the average punter.

But Joe and Jane Bloggs will eventually give in.

DVD has almost killed half the reason to buy a VCR, especially now that players are under the magic £100 mark.

Once analogue terrestial is switched off, Joe Public will finally give up their VCRs for time-shifting, as PVRs will be several times more powerful than they are now and maybe some will be under the £100 mark.

I think it will take many years, but I believe TiVo has what is needed to be the dominant PVR company in the US and UK.

[cyberjef28]

I found it strange that when I went to sky.com to get info on Sky+ (only checking specs, not thinking of buying :)) and clicked on the Sky Digital link it brought up info on Sky Digital and TiVo !!

http://www1.sky.com/skycomHome/getsky/

No mention of Sky+ at all. I spent ages looking for a link to Sky+
Hmmmmmmm. I wonder what size the HD is in a Sky+ box. if its capable of 40hrs broadcast quality MPEG then it looks like it has about 100GB disk. Slightly larger than TiVo :) SKY+ is still crap though.

Opps, just clicked that link above a few times, the page seems to cycle the banner for TiVo with a banner for Sky+ :S

[Automan]

Don't bother trying to record anyhting from Chn5 between 17:30 and 02:00 everyday it comes out looking really bad (all blocky).

Sky & SES are working on the problem and it seems to be related to another channel that transmits during this time on the same transponder.

Automan.

[BW]

Automan

Have you contacted Sky and SES then? I guessed it might be something to do with PCNE who use the same transponder, and posted the same here (http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16275&pagenumber=2) on 17/01

Barry

[daveh]

According to a thread on Sky usenet discussion groups, Sky are stopping Sky+ boxes from being able to record the Premiership.
Is this the thin end of the wedge for the Sky+ box and is is likely (or possible) to happen for Tivo?

[Automan]

Barry,
Yes Talked to Sky who actually admit it a problem rather than the infamous "Nobody else has complained". No ETA on a fix however.

According to a thread on Sky usenet discussion groups, Sky are stopping Sky+ boxes from being able to record the Premiership.
Is this the thin end of the wedge for the Sky+ box and is is likely (or possible) to happen for Tivo?

They can stop the copy to tape option as per any PPV movie.

If they do that TiVo will also fail to copy to tape but will record it itself with no problem (as should Sky+). TiVo reapplys Macrovision on playback if present when it was making the recording.

Automan.

[daveh]

I think the implication of the thread is that the Sky+ will NOT be able to record the Premiership, let alone copy it to tape.

[stephen93]

Originally posted by daveh
According to a thread on Sky usenet discussion groups, Sky are stopping Sky+ boxes from being able to record the Premiership.
Is this the thin end of the wedge for the Sky+ box and is is likely (or possible) to happen for Tivo?

I've not seen the Sky usernet discussion group before, where can I log onto it please?

Steve

[ozsat]

Originally posted by daveh
I think the implication of the thread is that the Sky+ will NOT be able to record the Premiership, let alone copy it to tape.

Yes - you won't be able to 'copy' to tape because Sky+ will NOT let you record the Premiership PPV football in the first place - a big plus for TiVo!

If you try and record PPV football is says "Programme not available" - even if you have paid for the event!

The only way to record it is a live record to a VCR (or TiVo :))

[Automan]

The only way to record it is a live record to a VCR (or TiVo )

I'm afraid not. TiVo applies Macrovision back to any source recording that had Macrovision on the source signal.

Thus TiVo will not record it to tape.

Live record also won't work due to Macrovision.

Automan.

[daveh]

quote
**I've not seen the Sky usernet discussion group before, where can I log onto it please**

The Usenet News groups are uk.media.tv.sky and uk.tech.tv.sky.
Access with a News reader rather than a web browser.

As regards recording using VCR or TIVO,
The Premiership is NOT Macrovision encoded according to the usenet thread. One person claims he was told by Sky that he can use a VCR to record the games but not Sky+.

[kmusgrave]

Why would anyone want to record a live PPV football match?

[ozsat]

As it starts at 2pm - and you can watch it as live when you get in - there are no repeats.

Sky also blocked the WWF Royal Rumble from recording on Sky+ units - this event was also live but at 1am - so many would rather record it!

[ozsat]

Originally posted by Automan


I'm afraid not. TiVo applies Macrovision back to any source recording that had Macrovision on the source signal.

Thus TiVo will not record it to tape.

Live record also won't work due to Macrovision.

Automan.

The football (and wrestling) do not seem to have Macrovision applied

[pr1uk]

this a copy of the post from the newsgroup ...........

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have just spoken to Sky + and they inform me that Priemeirship +
management has removed the right to record with Sky + but if I have a VCR I
can record it. I purchased a season ticket

Has anyone been informed of this change, Sky cusomer service even admits
that its a new policy. Why should we not be allowed to record with SKy +
when we can record with VCR (and Tivo for that matter)

I looked in the terms and conditions and it doesn't say that we are not
allowed to record Premiership +
Does anyone else think that this is a ridiculous policy that is just going
to piss off their customers.

I recommend others with Sky + call up Sky and request the following

Either reinstatement of the recording functionality for Premiership +
or Refund of the £10 per month that you pay for the abliity to record.
or Refund of the Sky + box so that you can purchase a VCR which was
recommended by SKY plus customer service so that I can record Football
matches.

I am ready to just cancel the Sky+ and go for Tivo which seems to be able to
do a lot more for cheaper.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i dont have a Sky+ myself and now the thought that they could stop you recording anything if they wanted too well "say no more" .. looks like i made a good choice when i bought a second TiVo instead.


Peter

[pr1uk]

i thought there would have been a response from you Sky+ user on this issue as said i dont have one myself but all quite. are you all packing the boxes away.
a friend of mine rang and got the same answer he is flaming. i helped of course telling him this is just the start and they will stop fast forwarding the adds soon after they have sold enough --but there you go that the sort of help-full friend i am.

the adds are very good shame about the product.

not gloating 'honest' guv.

each to their own my mate is mostly happy with the + box i love my TiVi. we are all different.

Peter

[Automan]

I see the thread says "Talked to Sky+" - Who is Sky+?

If they do stop you recording the event with Sky+ system I would have thought they would also turn on "Copy Protect Status" to prevent any system from recording it.

Of course they could have just talked to someone in Sky who knows little or nothing about Sky+ or the actual event.

I hate sports so I don't care :D

Sky have however fixed the problem recording Channel 5 :)

Automan.

[jameseast]

Originally posted by Automan
I see the thread says "Talked to Sky+" - Who is Sky+?

Nit-picker!!! :p


If they do stop you recording the event with Sky+ system I would have thought they would also turn on "Copy Protect Status" to prevent any system from recording it.

AFAIK (YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)! ASDA (All Standard Disclaimers Apply)!), the only way Sky can currently restrict programme recording (at least, with the current hardware) is via MacroVision. This might stop your average VCR from recording the programme, but TiVo decodes MacroVision, and later re-adds it on recording to VCR. Thus you can still TiVo a copy-restricted programme! Yay TiVo! :D

Of course they could have just talked to someone in Sky who knows little or nothing about Sky+ or the actual event.

Well, that wouldn't be the first time, would it? The vast majority of Sky's call centre staff are, in my experience, woefully under-trained, and, it seems, encouraged to make stuff up on the spot, which is a shame and discredits the hard work done by the minority of their employees that actually do attempt to help customers.

I hate sports so I don't care :D

My thoughts exactly. :D

[TivoUK]

There is a film coming up on Film Four early next month, so am thinking of paying the 6 quid to sub for a month so I can record it.

Does the Sky + doing anything "clever" when you record from Film Four, apart from possibly adding Macrovision? If I only had the sub for a month, would the Sky + allow me to view it after the Film Four sub had lapsed??

[Automan]

Does the Sky + doing anything "clever" when you record from Film Four, apart from possibly adding Macrovision? If I only had the sub for a month, would the Sky + allow me to view it after the Film Four sub had lapsed??

If you stop subscribing to the channel Sky+ won't let you watch the recording as it checks your subscription at the time of viewing rather than recording.

I don't think Film Four uses MacroVision so the copy to tape (while you still subscribe) should work okay.

Automan.

[chrisrobbo]

I believe the argument of whether Tivo will out sell Sky+ or vice versa is irrelevant. My opinion is both will be bit players in a large market in the future. Once Tivo and Sky+ have layed the foundatins for PVR's, and the goverment scrap analogue signals. The general public will be forced into choosing a digital subscriber, whether thats sky+ ITVDigital or whatevers round the block.

Its almost like the argument between VHS and Betamax. The facts show Betamax was the better version. But blanket marketing proved that best doesn't always survive.

In about two or three years, all the major electronics companies will have their own version of a PVR. Some with options and gimmicks that the others wount. At present what seems to be SKY+ bonus point is the double RNB. This is something a sky digital subscriber wanting to use a PVR finds irresitable.

But like all technology markets the company who can promote their item the best will win!

So my conclusion is like early video recorders, video cameras, computers, hi-fis etc, the PVR's in a couple of years will barely recognisable to those we are using today. And TIVO will have to battle hard to have a reasonable stake in the market. And Sky with whatever product they are pushing then, maybe SKY++++++! will probale settle for a small part.

If TIVO's service can be judged until know, who can say whether TIVO can fight off future 'Clones' or like IBM they are feeling their way in the blind.

[GarySargent]

I think the Betamax vs VHS is a very poor example of a better product loosing. VHS won because rental videos arrived with the latest films on - this was before Sky and their movie channels were on the scene.

This is always held up as an example but is a poor one - people chose VHS because it had a massive benefit over Betamax (rentals), and that was obviously perceived to be of greater benefit than the technical advantages of Betamax.

[chrisrobbo]

With all due respect Gary, video rentals was a weapon used in the descruction of betamax. colabaration between VHS VCR makers and film production companies, creating a monopoly. Like when record companies stop recording on Vinyl, the makers of CD players have a huge part in these decisions.

It may not be the best of comparisions, but my point being Betamax was recognised as being better than VHS. So if Tivo is better than Sky+ this doe's not guarantee its future. Tivo needs to do more to gurantee its future, and the future of our machines which we have invested. Some people have invested up to £600 for there Tivo. This including a lifetime subscription. What good is a lifetime subscription if the company is bankrupt in 2 years.

[cyril]

Originally posted by chrisrobbo
What good is a lifetime subscription if the company is bankrupt in 2 years.
Well it's £40 cheaper than Sky+ for 2 years :D

[Automan]

Sky & Granda Plus have been adding lots more series links to most of their day time programs

e.g.
Dempsey & Makepiece, Hawaii 50, Alias Smith & Jones, The Beverly Hillbillies, Sliders.

Infact the only daily program I now have to add is "The Pretender" shown every weekday AM on Sky One. This I just add all at once every Monday.

My box records the following with no user intervention, error and never ever the wrong channel :)

1. Stargate 6am showings and wednesday first runs
2. Voyager (midnight showings)
3. The Simpsons (three series links to record all weekly showings)
4. Hawaii 50
6. Dempsey & Makepiece
7. The Beverly Hillbillies
8. Alias Smith & Jones
9. Sliders
10. Enterprise
11. Buffy
12. Dark Angel
13. South Park
14. Only Fools & Horses

Granted, the links are nowhere as smart as TiVo season passes but are so quick and easy to use.

I even got a message from someone with a 3year old daughter who can play her recordings on Sky+ with no help!

P.S.
I have a Sky+ negative which is also strange....

Old Style Teletext Subtitles
You can watch a program live with old 888 style subtitles but if you record that program and play it back they don't work.

Digital subtitles of course work okay.

It just seems strange to me that this would occur.

Automan.

[mrtickle]

Teletext data is transmitted in a separate datastream which is then converted into VBI picture data by the digibox and added to the top of the picture. I'd expect that this stream doesn't get recorded by Sky+ just as the interactive streams for programmes like Banzai don't get recorded.

I bet you can't set up a recording which will only get new episodes of the Simpsons every odd Sunday :-)

[Automan]

If you recall my original 60Gb Sky+ upgrade became noisy.
Since then I replaced it with a 80Gb fluid bearing drive imported from the USA. This is still quiet :)

Anyway back on the 15th Jan I sent my noisy Maxtor 4K060H3 back to Maxtor.
Today a Maxtor 4D060K3 arrived to replace it.
If I'm getting Maxtor drive codes right, this is a fluid drive version :)

Also the label on the drive is totally different from any I have seen before and takes up the whole face of the disk.

The drive was manufactured Dec 2001.

BTW, A 80Gig drive in Sky+ yeilds just over 45hrs of recording time.

Automan.

[GarySargent]

Sky+ gets a poor mention in Home Cinema Choice this month (Feb 2002 page 129).

It says "First impressions of the Sky+ box, it must be said, are fantastic" ...

But then goes on to say "But for all the tricks up its sleeve, first impressions don't last forever, and its easy to fall out of love with your Sky+ box if, like mine, the thing only records when it feels like it. In my first week of using the box, I'd say the success rate was around one in two recordings. On the others, when you tried to play back the recording, you simply got a tag saying that the recording failed, with an occasional explanation of why, plus, just to really wind you up a synopsis of the programme - the same one that made you want to record it - just to remind you what a great programme it had failed to record for you."

[andyjenkins]

One of the things I've allways thought about the Sky+ vs TiVo war is that Sky+ has 1 major advantage over TiVo. What is it?

Well - what Sky+ is lacking (compared to TiVo) is "software" based. What TiVo is lacking (compared to Sky+) is "hardware" based.

Now, given that we are all now used to getting software updates that give us more functionality in everyday items (BIOS, Windows updates etc), I can see Sky+ soon (is that word TM Gary?) having the facilities that TiVo owners enjoy or will soon enjoy - wishlists, suggestions et al.

I know many people will state that dual tuner is not for them, but theres a mass market out there who is IS for - and those are the people that would love both systems, but alas can only get one - and no matter what, each that sign up to Sky+ is damaging to TiVo.

TiVo cannot and will not introduce a dual tuner based system for TiVo as we currently know it. But Sky+ can (and probably will) introduce, wishlists, suggestions etc - after all, it's what is making people buy TiVo is'nt it?

[GarySargent]

Sky+ is playing catchup though - even if it did get all those features (very unlikely) whos to say TiVo won't be on V4.0 with even more new stuff, and possibly a TiVo Series 2 will have launched. No reason why TiVo can't develop a dual tuner box with NTL or ITV Digital (or Sky even!).

There is no "war". Its not one or the other - how many different VCR's are there?!

Also what use is dual tuners exactly? The whole point of PVR's like TiVo is that it frees you from live TV letting you watch what you want and when you want. Sky+ doesn't achieve that - primarily because of the poor season link. You don't actually need two tuners with TiVo IMHO!

[pauljs]

Originally posted by GarySargent
people chose VHS because it had a massive benefit over Betamax (rentals), and that was obviously perceived to be of greater benefit than the technical advantages of Betamax.

Also VHS was licenced to other companies and badge engineered machines were in every shop window including all the rental outlets eg thorn and ferguson (remember them:D )

Betamax on the other hand was initially just from Sony, who presumably hoped a better product would win and they would control the market

PVR's on the other hand are all compatible with the same media.

[mrtickle]

Originally posted by andyjenkins

Now, given that we are all now used to getting software updates that give us more functionality in everyday items (BIOS, Windows updates etc), I can see Sky+ soon (is that word TM Gary?) having the facilities that TiVo owners enjoy or will soon enjoy - wishlists, suggestions et al.


It took Sky two and a half years to add a simple timer to the existing digiboxes. Extrapolate that for the features you think they'll add to Sky+ and see what release date you come up with!


TiVo cannot and will not introduce a dual tuner based system for TiVo as we currently know it.

Hmm. Famous last words ;)

[cyril]

Originally posted by andyjenkins

TiVo cannot and will not introduce a dual tuner based system for TiVo as we currently know it.

Err... there are a whole bunch of manufacturers with dual-tuner TiVos in the US - yes you can record two programmes at once. Sky+ does not have this feature yet.

[Automan]

Trouble with magazine articles is the lag from doing the review to getting the magazine in the shop...

Shock of horrors, I had a failed recording!
Wednesday morning sky one - just a purple picture.
However it seems some Sky channels were not broadcasting that night for a while which is most likely why.

I also got a warning message that the schedule had been changed causing the start of a recording to be missed.

It seems Sky had dynamically adjusted "The Pretender" from a 50 min slot to a 60 min slot thus causing Sky+ (still only able to make one recording :( ) to miss the start of it's next recording.

Also last night chn305 did not seem to be transmitting in Dolby Digital so I assume they still have problems or are enhancing the system.

I have found that sometimes during the day and morning that I could use the ability to record two things at once.

The box can already do this of course but the user interface does not let you save the paused livetv buffer recording.

Automan.

[ozsat]

Originally posted by GarySargent
But then goes on to say "But for all the tricks up its sleeve, first impressions don't last forever, and its easy to fall out of love with your Sky+ box if, like mine, the thing only records when it feels like it.

[B]Yet again I forgot that if you pause 'Heartbeat' at the beginning of the programme using Sky+ - you will only get 2-3 minutes recorded.

I then discovered (as if by magic) that TiVo has been left on ITV and so was recording it as live tv by default! :)

[Automan]

Yet again I forgot that if you pause 'Heartbeat' at the beginning of the programme using Sky+ - you will only get 2-3 minutes recorded.

I then discovered (as if by magic) that TiVo has been left on ITV and so was recording it as live tv by default!

I have had the same with TiVo where a program starts, you press record and get about a minute because the program guide data still thinks you are watching the last program which is running late.

The “Achilles Heel” of all available UK PVR’s - Poor EPG data…

I must ask AlanJ to ask the Sky+ development team why Sky+ does not use the "Search & Scan" times to control recording start/stop times rather than the more rigid EPG times.

Alan, I hope Sky also buy you lunch :)

Automan.

[Automan]

It seems some older Dolby Digital chipsets are having problems decoding the latest variant of Dolby Digital which contains Extended Bitstream information.

See http://www.whatvideotv.com/news/frame.html?http://www.whatvideotv.com/cgi-bin/displaynews.php?id=1401 and http://www.whatvideotv.com/news/frame.html?http://www.whatvideotv.com/cgi-bin/displaynews.php?id=1430

Perhaps this is why we had no DD last night?

Automan.

[Automan]

Just trying to watch "The Whole Nine Yards" in 5.1 and it's like being in a church.

I called Sky again who admit they have a problem and suggest going into sound setup and turn off DD.

If this is due to the Extended Bitstream information problem I don't know but my Amp seemed okay with it till yesterday (except the movie mumford which was bad for everyone (lip sysnce very bad)).

Sky don't always say "not heard that problem before"

Automan.

[ALanJay]

Originally posted by Automan
I must ask AlanJ to ask the Sky+ development team why Sky+ does not use the "Search & Scan" times to control recording start/stop times rather than the more rigid EPG times.

Alan, I hope Sky also buy you lunch :)

Automan.

Well I'll let you know on the lunch :)

I think I already know the answer to the search as scan issue and that is that SKY+ just uses the planner and that data stram doesn't include the "now and next" banner info - otherwise they could record radion stations which often carry info in the now and next and not in the planner. I do however think that they should integrate this information.

If there are any buring questions for Sky not already on the list here http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17178 then add your sugestions by Sunday and I'll try to get some answers.

[Automan]

I have been trying various timing combinations with my Pronto remote to fast forward at 12x at the press of the right button and return to normal play automatically rewinding a little so none of the action is missed...

This gives you a feature similar to what TiVo does by default but with an adjustment to suit your reaction time.

I have found the following values work well for me...

FF Hard Key
FF Button (x2)
Delay .4 sec
FF Button (x6)
Delay .4 sec
FF Button (x12)

Play Hard Key
Play Button
RW Button (x2)
Delay .4 sec
RW Button (x6)
Delay 1.5 sec
Play button

The 1.5 second value can be adjusted to match your reaction times to noting the program has started.

Automan.

[stephen93]

I 've heard Pronto remotes mentioned alot, are they really good? where can you get them from & how much, thanks Steve

[sjp]

You should be able to get a 2mb Pronto over the counter from RicherSounds for £149. I didn't have a copy of their web price with but the Kingston branch matched the web price without adding the 10% they should have stuck on.

There are 1mb Prontos available so make sure any price comparisons are like with like.

Just got to switch mine on and figure out it works. :D

stuart

[Automan]

See http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=6105 for Alan's article re upcoming changes on the Sky+ front...

Good Work Alan.

Automan.

[GarySargent]

Very interesting article. Dual tuner support now sounds less likely to appear, and no guide data past 7 days?!

Seems season links of channels 4 and 5 will be a while arriving too.

Shame Alan didn't ask about the crashing Sky boxes! :)

[ALanJay]

Originally posted by GarySargent
Shame Alan didn't ask about the crashing Sky boxes! :)

Each time we strayed off the specifics of Sky+ it was clear that I was even less likely to get an answer - I did mange to slip a couple of non Sky+ specific questions in.

What did appear is they have learnt that getting the software (in general) to work without bugs is extremly hard and that they will do even more testing than previous before releasing things to the public.

[mrtickle]

Excellent report!

S-Video Widescreen Switching - had to laugh at the comment. I assume that this refers to the S-Video-only voltage level changes, rather than line23 WSS which would work from all outputs and is more widely supported?

Finally near the end, the "Direct request to add a programme to the planner from a programme promo" and "One button Subtitles ON/OFF" - I'd imagine that this would mean a software update to standard digiboxes too? In which case they might fix the standby bug at the same time...

[sammoj]

Originally posted by Automan
See http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/displayarticle.php?id=6105 for Alan's article re upcoming changes on the Sky+ front...

Good Work Alan.

Automan.


Mmmmm

Sounds like we have the difference between Vauxhall (Sky+) and Jaguar (Tivo) here. Sky+ looks set to remain a fairly basic PVR while Tivo moves on the significant extra function in 2.5.5.

Believe me I should know, just swapped my Jaguar XJ for a Vauxhall Omega :( , but still got the Tivo :)

[ALanJay]

Originally posted by mrtickle
Excellent report!

S-Video Widescreen Switching - had to laugh at the comment. I assume that this refers to the S-Video-only voltage level changes, rather than line23 WSS which would work from all outputs and is more widely supported?


Yes - when I mentioned that at someone's request - the technical guy got out his notepad and wrote down what I know about it - but no one can find any references to this as a standard. [Does anyone know if the S-Video switching rules are enshrined in any specifications and standards anywhere? all I have heard is that it is a +5V offset on the C side of the Y/C connection but don't know if that is guarenteed or how it is implemented.]

Accoring to him they already use the line 23 method - can anyone confirm that?


Finally near the end, the "Direct request to add a programme to the planner from a programme promo" and "One button Subtitles ON/OFF" - I'd imagine that this would mean a software update to standard digiboxes too? In which case they might fix the standby bug at the same time...

Yes this would work for the standard boxes as well and indeed it might (or might not) fix other things as well. They are certainly thinking very seriously about implementing both of these as they are getting complaints about the subtitles and the "push green to remind/record" within a promotion would be very cool if they can do it correctly.

I suspect it could even be implemented via the standard interactive options "red" to enter interactive then a menu with the current promotional programmes and selet to add to personal planner. Though not nearly as cool as a single button solution.

[GarySargent]

Cool - if they do the "press green to record" thing then maybe they'll extend it to say "Sky+ users press green to record, TiVo users press Select" :) AFAIK V2.5.5 supports this ability when receiving a special signal from the broadcaster.

[dmchapman]

Originally posted by GarySargent
Cool - if they do the "press green to record" thing then maybe they'll extend it to say "Sky+ users press green to record, TiVo users press Select" :) AFAIK V2.5.5 supports this ability when receiving a special signal from the broadcaster.

Anyone got an idea on how this is implemented (or at least, how it would be implemented!)?

Something in the non displayed part of the signal (ala line 23 switching)? I can't think what the TiVo could look for that would be possible over all platforms...

Darren - but it would be very cool :-)

[Automan]

Accoring to him they already use the line 23 method - can anyone confirm that?

I don't think it does but I assume it's this technique that TiVo uses (along with scart control voltage as well), my Sony DVD and my JVC S-VHS deck.

Twin Recording
If Sky are trying to keep the user interface simple this may be why they are avoiding this feature.
I suspect they are worried about the extra onscreen messages that you would get while you are watching livetv.

The box would have to say you must stop watching this so I can record program x - cancel recording or keep watching this program.

Automan

[kmusgrave]

Originally posted by Automan


I
The box would have to say you must stop watching this so I can record program x - cancel recording or keep watching this program.

Automan

Yeah, that would be difficult, wouldn't it. You've just written the spec for them - they just have to write the code, now :p

Kevin

[ALanJay]

Originally posted by Automan

The box would have to say you must stop watching this so I can record program x - cancel recording or keep watching this program.

Automan

This is of course exactly the message that TiVo gives when it comes to record a programme.

[mrtickle]

Originally posted by dmchapman


Anyone got an idea on how this is implemented (or at least, how it would be implemented!)?

Something in the non displayed part of the signal (ala line 23 switching)? I can't think what the TiVo could look for that would be possible over all platforms...



I'm stumped as well!


Darren - but it would be very cool :-)

Not so sure about how cool it'd be - you'd have to be sat watching live TV! <monty python spam sketch style>Uuuuurrrrggggh!</mpsss> Or at least, you'd have to playback a recording which contained the trailer before the transmission of the programme it was trailing. I can't remember the last time I did either of those :)

[GarySargent]

With Alan's permission (thanks!) I've incorporated some of the information in his Digital Spy article into my TiVo vs Sky+ comparison chart. I've also added more info on the V2.5.5 software for TiVo based on what I know of V2.5 in the US.

http://www.tivoportal.co.uk/TIVOvsSKY.htm

[Automan]

I just flicked onto chn305, Austin Powers II, and I noted that my amp now switches to a Dolby Digital Prologic mode (LtRt) rather than just being in Dolby 2/0.

This is with my amp in AFD (Auto Format Decode) mode by the way.

Automan.

[MickW]

I've just ordered Sky+ and (particularly considering the fact that the disk is always running), I was wondering how hot the box gets when switched on?

I was planning to stack the box in a closed cabinet with video recorder etc. Is this likely to be a problem?

If necessary, I could make sure the box is on top of the stack and/or remove the back of the cabinet.

Any comments/advice on this issue?

[ALanJay]

It does get warm but it does have a fan so it should be fine - I have mine in a closed cabinet but do have reasonably ventilation around the box to compensate.

[jameseast]

Originally posted by MickW
I've just ordered Sky+...

RIGHT!!! GET 'IM!!! :D

[Automan]

How much ventilation does Sky+ box need?

Sky+ is specified to work in an ambient of up to 40c

The internal fan will start when the internal temperature reaches 48c

In order to ensure a free flow of air around your sky+ set top box, allow at least 10 cm of free space above and on all sides (especially between your Sky+ set top box and your TV).
Do not cover the ventilation slots.

Do not place your Sky+ set top box in an enclosed cabinet with more than one other piece of audio/video equipment e.g. VCR or DVD

Automan.

[ozsat]

Recorded Coronation St. on Sky+ only to find that the picture froze during the ad break.

The last 20 minutes of the Sky+ recording was the same - even jumping to a point within the recording gave the same problem.

Luckily, TiVo too was recording the programme - so the family didn't miss anything.

We have so many things go missing from the planner - or things where the end of not recorded on Sky+ that we now only use it when TiVo is busy.

A couple of programmes are set to record on both.

UPDATE: Just found that the picture from the ad break is actually frozen onto all live channels - although you can still hear the correct sound.

[Automan]

Coronation St - even Sky+ can't handle more than 15 minutes of that :)

Perhaps some glitch in the ITV transmission upset Sky+ when they switched from one signal source to another.

Sky+ postings are now getting quite rare... Does this indicate that most users are now quite happy with the product?

Automan.

[GarySargent]

Who knows - maybe they all switched to TiVo because they kept loosing recordings :D

[BW]

1. No probs recording the St in Carlton WestCountry Region

2. Automan correct as far as I am concerned, absolutely no problems with Sky+ since the last update, and my 80Gb drive is still quiet!!

3. Tivo - just sitting under the telly looking up at a Sky+ box pinching most of its work.

[dsloper]

I'm finding that I am only using sky+ to record program clashes on programs that are not repeated during the week. The rest I use tivo for. I also setup for overnight recordings (such as pretender) in case one or the other goes wonky.

[ALanJay]

Overall I think that Sky+ now does what it should have done from day one without any major issues. But I do find that I only use it for BBC1 / 2 and Sky One which use its full "series links" and start stop triggers correctly. When these are implemented by other programmes correctly it will make the product a whole lot more useable.

I find that it is a good compliment to TiVo just as before I had Sky+ I still found occasions to use a video :) Sky+ has replaced that :)

[GarySargent]

I've merged back the original Sky+ discussion thread for reference.

[ozsat]

Due to a programme clash on TiVo - on Wednesday, CSI on C5 on Saturday was set on Sky+.

Thursday am it had gone and was reentered.

Friday am it had gone and was reentered.

Saturday am it had gone and was reentered.

It recorded OK but is not the first time entries have dropped out of the Sky+ planner.

[GarySargent]

A thread on Digital Spy also suggests picture quality playback problems on recordings - which seems bizzare as its supposed to record the digital stream.

[ALanJay]

Though if there is a fault on the data stream due to an error in transmission that error would be played back from the recording - if that is the issue as oposed to problems reading back the data.

Don't know for certain one way or the other.

[Paj]

Originally posted by Automan
Sky+ postings are now getting quite rare... Does this indicate that most users are now quite happy with the product?


Maybe they thought it more appropriate to post in ... ooh, I dunno... a Sky+ forum?

[JohnYoung]

Quote:-

Due to a programme clash on TiVo - on Wednesday, CSI on C5 on Saturday was set on Sky+.

Thursday am it had gone and was reentered.

Friday am it had gone and was reentered.

Saturday am it had gone and was reentered.

It recorded OK but is not the first time entries have dropped out of the Sky+ planner.

This happens every week on CSI and Law & Order. I presume it is something to do with the way C5 deal with the EPG as it only happens on this one channel.

[ozsat]

Sky+ is so unreliable that we only use it to record stuff that we would like recorded as a second choice when TiVo is busy.

Lost scheduled recordings and lost endings.

As the EPG is not real time with some channels - the live buffer is often useless to delay a programme by a few minutes if it starts early. Sky+ live buffer is halted when it thinks a programme has ended.

[ALanJay]

I have found Sky+ to be perfectly releiable on channels that deal with the EPG data correctly which basically means BBC channels and Sky channels. I havn't really tried any others with any degree of consistency as the lack of series links make it a pain at the best of times.

[chrisrobbo]

Had sky+ for three months now, and

Never missed a program, or its start or finish.
Never has trouble turning over to the right channel.
Noticed a lot of new series links being created, even on ITV

And the biggest pro of all is the fact that I can turn over whenever I want, even if its tapeing something. Without, like some subsribers do, having mutliple tivos with multiple digi boxes. What a pain in the arse that would be

[ozsat]

The start/end time problem happens - mainly on ITV which seemed to have an attempt at keeping the EPG right but then gave up. BBC are best with their EPG data.

We've missed about two programmes which just vanished - now we know they just vanish we check again on the actual day. This is mainly a C4/C5 problem.

And TiVo lets me record PPV football etc. to watch when I'm ready, or to replay as I wish.

[GarySargent]

Your "pain in the arse" of two TiVo's couldn't be further from the truth! Its great - I would never go back to one TiVo now.

I can record two channels at once (you can't do that on Sky+), I have twice the disc capacity, twice the number of suggestions being recorded.

My Pronto makes control of the two TiVo's a breeze - I have buttons to flip between each TiVo and these issue IR commands to each TiVo to activate one, and put the other into VCR bypass as appopriate.

I have both NTL Digital and ITV Digital - the best of both worlds instead of paying for any one platform twice.

I've recently noticed MANY programmes running four minutes late - all caught by my five minutes padding. Don't know how you're coping with your poxy 2 mins padding :D

[chrisrobbo]

Gary,

If you wish to fill your house with ugly looking silver boxes everywhere then thats your lookout. At least your not as bad as some who have upto ten?

Presuming at least one of your digital boxes is free to air, you extremely limited as to what your second recording is when you need to record two programs.

As for the five minute delay. All I can say is its never happened to me.

I am a tivo fan, and it is more of versatile package than sky+, but the good points for Sky+ seem to skyward in this forum. And I was just pointing out them. I just can't stand sky bashing. Either you subscribe or you don't. Having been a subscriber to all digital packages availiable to me, ie ITV Digital, Telewest Digital and Sky Digitial. Sky Digital far surpasses any of these. Yes you do have to pay, but in the end you get what you pay for.

Personally it beggars belief wht Sky even allow the other mention digital packages access to there own channels. If I was the decision maker I would tell NTL, Telewest and ITVDigital to whistle for its channels, then watch a laugh as they go the wall.

[GarySargent]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The boxes can easily be hidden away with a remote extender to control them if you wish.

Plus you save lots on heating bills by having multiple boxes :D

[cwaring]

Originally posted by chrisrobbo
Personally it beggars belief wht Sky even allow the other mention digital packages access to there own channels. If I was the decision maker I would tell NTL, Telewest and ITVDigital to whistle for its channels, then watch a laugh as they go the wall.

Then, of course, Flextech could tell $ky to "go whistle" for it's channels. Say goodby to:

Bravo, Living, Trouble, Challenge TV, UK Gold, UK Gold 2, UK Style, UK Horizons, UK Drama and PlayUK. :)

[cyril]

Originally posted by GarySargent


Plus you save lots on heating bills by having multiple boxes :D

If it wernt for the fact that my flatmates like their rooms to be hotter than a sauna, I would have zero heating bills!

[cyril]

Originally posted by chrisrobbo


And the biggest pro of all is the fact that I can turn over whenever I want, even if its tapeing something. Without, like some subsribers do, having mutliple tivos with multiple digi boxes. What a pain in the arse that would be

Its not a pain at all if you have one per channel :)
In fact it is almost as easy as changing channels on your remote.
You want to watch BBC1, TiVO 1 has it.
BBC2 TiVo 2
ITV TiVO 3
C4 TiVo 4
Watch Sky One or other pay channels TiVo 9 has it

Etc...
Much easier as all your programs are stored seperately.

It would be very hard to do this with 10 Sky+ boxes!
As the cost would be astronomical!

I sometimes watch 3 programmes at the same time, while browsing the web as well. Of course only one TiVo outputs sound at any given time.

[callum]

As a new Tivo owner (who already has Sky+) you may interested to read my thoughts on both systems at this other PVR forum. (http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28027)

I must say I am a happy new Tivo owner.

[Automan]

That's what they claim...

http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/uknews/-bsb_pvr.htm

P.S.
That gives them a monthly revenue from Sky+ of £1,000,000.00 and £12,000,000.00 a year.

Automan.

[craig@rewind]

Bothered!

[sxb]

The quote


There are challenges in selling the PVR product, including price (which Sullivan said is the top barrier to purchase) and developing a marketing message. "You point to a PVR and you really can't explain it in one sentence," Sullivan said.

pretty much says it with regard to marketing of PVRs though.

The hard part is persuading folk to buy the first time - AFTER that they sell themselves

[iankb]

I was going to add Sky+ as a mirror sub under the special loyalty scheme. Unfortunately, I've only had Sky for 6 months (ex ITVDigital) and the minimum period for the Sky+ offer is 12 months. Given the substantial difference in cost, there is no way I will do it now. Maybe their loyalty schemes just make people feel ripped-off if they aren't able to participate.

Ian.

[ALanJay]

I seem to remember that the 100,000 was the target for the end of their financial year which is sometime the middle of next year. But they certainly announced this as a target over the summer.

[Automan]

It could be but the financial year but the article does say...

and is expected to end 2002 with 100,000 users

Automan.

[mrtickle]

This really belongs in the Chit-chat forum.

[ozsat]

Or the Sky+ thread ;)

[mrtickle]

indeed :)

[Automan]

Originally posted by mrtickle
This really belongs in the Chit-chat forum.

I was wondering that but I thought it may be of interest that how Sky+ with a limited market (7 million possible consumers) with a product that not so smart have likely sold twice the number units TiVo have in half the time.

Is it all down to marketing?

Automan.

[iankb]

Because Sky+ is seen as an alternative method to get satellite whereas, with TiVo, you have to get the digibox as well. If Sky tuners had been built into the TiVo, it would probably have sold more than Sky+.

Ian.

[ozsat]

Originally posted by TwiceNightly in SPECIAL THREAD: TiVo Programme Listings/Schedule Errors (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29736)
TiVo now needs a lot of looking after, one of it's main appeals to me was the Season Pass which you could just set and forget about. This doesn't seem to be happening any more.

Now that Sky+ has a buffer, manual recording, 2 channel recording (coming soon I know) I am seriously thinking of switching over and I'm sure a lot of other people must be doing the same. Sort it out TiVo/Tribune/whoever! The Sky+ buffer only works when you activate it - and you can not change channel until you cancel it.

Also, the live buffer is tied to a programme - so if you start the live buffer at 7.50pm during Coronation Street - it will stop itself at 8pm!

Finally, TiVo does need checking that you recordings are in the ToDo list - but with Sky+ you must remember to check that your recordings are still requested on the day they are due. They often go missing

[rservis]

I thought I would let you know, Sky sent my dad a letter saying he could have sky + for £199.00 with no monthly fee. He asked me my opinon and I told him to go with the Tivo, it is just easier for everything and he liked the idea that I could upgrade it to 120gb drive. Only problem is where can I buy one, I did get mine from the local comet but they have now sold their remaining stock. I did see the unbeatable offer but that now has finished.

any ideas??

Regards

Roy

[sanderton]

Comet have it on their web site (www.comet.co.uk).

I had that Sky+ letter - it's only "no monthly fee" if you take out a mirror sub at £15 a month!

[mrtickle]

Yep. In fact it is NOT "no monthly fee" at all - it's a discount package on the two fees (Sky+ and mirror), with many strings attached.

[Automan]

If you want to see what you are missing click here http://www1.sky.com/products/skyplus/Sky+_PVR1.pdf :)

(6meg Acrobat document)

Automan.

[mrtickle]

Gotta love that - they're trying to claim it's a PVR :)

[kmusgrave]

So what's a PVR?

[cwaring]

Originally posted by kmusgrave
So what's a PVR?

I presume that what mrticle meant was that Sky+ only records the programme you explicitly tell it to; ie it's a 'dumb' machine. Whereas Tivo is a "Personal" Video (huh?) recorder as it has features such as "Wishlists" and "Suggestions"; ie you get not only what you asked for but other stuff you may like also. Or something... :D

[iankb]

Originally posted by Automan
If you want to see what you are missing click here http://www1.sky.com/products/skyplus/Sky+_PVR1.pdf

Just looked. I think you've just sold a few more TiVo's, Automan. :)

Ian.

[mrtickle]

cwaring is along the right lines. IMHO a PVR should have functions such as wishlists, keyword/actor searching, suggestions, season passes etc. Sky+ has series links but no other PVR functions. Anyone can build a hard disc recorder, but that doesn't make it a PVR nomatter how often they try to claim it is one.

[kmusgrave]

It was actually a serious question - "What is a PVR?" I really want to see a definition and have never seen a satisfactory one. LOts of people seem to assume (incorrectly) that a video (correct word, cwaring!:)) recorder which uses a hard disk is a PVR.

What makes Tivo a PVR, for example? i.e we know its a VR (as is a VCR) but what makes it Personal?

[GarySargent]

I'd say a PVR is a TV recording device that needs very little user operation to record the programmes that you like (after initial setup obviously), and allows timeshifting operations.

[kmusgrave]

Like Sky+, you mean? :D I was wondering wher they got the "Personal" from?

[TheBear]

Originally posted by iankb
Because Sky+ is seen as an alternative method to get satellite whereas, with TiVo, you have to get the digibox as well. If Sky tuners had been built into the TiVo, it would probably have sold more than Sky+.


But Tivo could be seen as an alternative method to get analogue terrestrial TV.

As there are far more terrestrial analogue viewers than Sky viewers you'd expect Tivo to outsell Sky+...as we know it hasn't.

Tivo/Thomson *cannot* be pleased with how few have been sold compared to Sky+.

[iankb]

But if Sky are responsible for the marketing of both products, then surely that is an indication of the bias of Sky's marketing.

Ian.

[cwaring]

Originally posted by iankb
But if Sky are responsible for the marketing of both products, then surely that is an indication of the bias of Sky's marketing.

But they're not! Sky only do Tivo CS, don't they?

Disclaimer: ICBW!

[iankb]

You obviously missed the recent thread that shows the content of the TiVo UK sales and marketing team.

See this page on the TiVo UK site ...

http://www.tivo.co.uk/tivo_inc/management.asp?frames=yes


Ian.

[cwaring]

Either that or a bad short-term memory :)

[iankb]

I know the feeling. Or at least I think I do. :)

Ian.

[benlast]

Oddly enough... back to the topic at hand. I happened to be in the office of the person in Sky who is responsible for Sky+ (don't ask why, I can't tell you). He had a working Sky+ box (as you'd expect) plus a working Thomson Tivo *and* a Tivo Series 2 (or at least the box). Knew what he was talking about too.

Veering back off topic, I was also talking to a girl who does customer service for TiVo up in the Scottish callcentre. She said they are a dedicated team, not part of the general Sky support and have around 20 TiVos set up for them to check stuff on. At the time I was talking to her, most of them had no programme guide data to speak of because some clown had unplugged the phone line...

Odd what you come across, isn't it?

[iankb]

Maybe Sky are also handling the marketing of the TiVo to the manufacturers. Unlikely, but would explain the presence of the TiVo 2 model. Presumably you couldn't see (or tell) who made it.

Ian.

[Automan]

Perhaps a new company will imerge in the UK

SkyVo :D

Automan.

[jameseast]

Nah, TiVoPlus! :)

[mrtickle]

Better TiVoky :)

[Richardr]

There were 38,000 Sky+ subscribers as at 30 September, the end of Sky's first quarter in their financial year (announced today).

[sanderton]

Really? So still a very similar number to TiVo. That has to be disappointing for them doesn't it?

[TheBear]

Originally posted by sanderton
Really? So still a very similar number to TiVo. That has to be disappointing for them doesn't it?

It is, however, effectively selling twice as fast as Tivo!

[sanderton]

With TiVo's non-marketing and non-availablilty, "twice as fast" for a product with huge in store presence, TV ads and direct mail campaigns galore is close on disaster!

(Also suggests that conventional marketing for a PVR is hitting a brick wall. Maybe TiVo ain't so dumb in not spending on ads!)

[Automan]

Also of course TiVo is be suitable for nearly every home in the UK's TV connection.

Sky+ as said thousands of times before only works on the Sky Digital platform.

Thus
38,000 sky+ boxes / 6.8 million sky customers (in one year)
30,000 Tivo boxes / Nearly every house & flat in uk (in two years)

Of course some of the sky+ customers will be new customers rather than upgrades from normal non PVR digiboxes.

Automan.

[GarySargent]

I feel sorry for all those Sky+ users who know no better - just as I feel sorry for people who buy PC's from PcWorld etc.

[mrtickle]

Originally posted by Automan

Thus
38,000 sky+ boxes / 6.8 million sky customers (in one year)
30,000 Tivo boxes / Nearly every house & flat in uk (in two years)


Alternatively (using figures from TiVo CS this week who said it was closer to 40,000 TiVos):
38,000 sky+ boxes / saturation advertising on Sky which would cost millions if they charged themselves the going rates, huge high street presence with kickbacks and commision for sales staff, very aggressive marketing deals and telephone deals to Sky customers
40,000 Tivo boxes / very little advertising, small high street presence, mainly word of mouth marketing

The fact that Sky with all that backing have only managed a lowly 38,000 indicates that marketing isn't the be all and end all that many of us have thought it was. PVRs *are* difficult to sell! TiVo have done far better than Sky IMHO with the odds stacked against them.

[TheBear]

Sky sell on average over 2700 Sky+ units per month.

Tivo sell on average far less than 1500 units per month.

Sky+ outsells Tivo by almost 2:1 so I wouldn't say their figures are "lowly"-they are selling almost twice as fast as their nearest competition!

(Above figures based on 35K Tivo subscribers and 38K Sky+ purchasers over the corresponding time periods products have been available.)

[iankb]

I have to say that I'm really impressed that TiVo can sell as much as 50% of what Sky can sell with no real marketing, against the cost of Sky+ marketing. It shows how much better a product the TiVo really is. :D

Ian.

[mrtickle]

Yes they are lowly wrt the different marketing for each one, that is the point, please read my whole post in context.

[mrtickle]

Originally posted by iankb
I have to say that I'm really impressed that TiVo can sell as much as 50% of what Sky can sell with no real marketing, against the cost of Sky+ marketing. It shows how much better a product the TiVo really is. :D

Ian.

Quite.

[TheBear]

Originally posted by iankb
I have to say that I'm really impressed that TiVo can sell as much as 50% of what Sky can sell with no real marketing, against the cost of Sky+ marketing.

What has that got to do with the price of fish?

The bottom line is Sky+ is selling twice as fast. It can't bode well for the future of Tivo in the UK, can it?

[iankb]

What has the success of the Sky+ have to do directly with the success of the TiVo?

Being half as successful as Sky is not being unsuccessful if Sky are stll successful and/or TiVo's marketing costs are a lot less.

Ian.

[sanderton]

Originally posted by TheBear
What has that got to do with the price of fish?

The bottom line is Sky+ is selling twice as fast. It can't bode well for the future of Tivo in the UK, can it?

I see no reason why there can't be multiple competing PVR platforms in the UK. In which case, what has the number of Sky+s sold got to do with the price of fish? :)

[mrtickle]

Originally posted by TheBear
What has that got to do with the price of fish?


The fact that - since you insist on continuing this bogus comparison between the two - with the massive difference in marketing budgets Sky+ hasn't done very well in relative terms.


The bottom line is Sky+ is selling twice as fast.


Nope. The bottom line is that Sky's massive advertising campaign hasn't made much of a difference.


It can't bode well for the future of Tivo in the UK, can it?

Sigh. You really aren't reading the posts, are you? :(

[GarethR]

I do wonder why TheBear bothers to post here any more - he can't see any possible future for TiVo, so I don't understand why he doesn't just buy a Sky+, leave this forum and be done with it! :(

[TheBear]

Originally posted by GarethR
I do wonder why TheBear bothers to post here any more - he can't see any possible future for TiVo,

Firstly, because I have one.

Secondly, I don't think Tivo will fail but have come to believe that the Thomson Tivo will cease to be sold in the UK unless something is done SOON. Without any other manufacturers announcing UK product it's going to leave an awkward gap and marketing will have to start again from scratch.

At the end of the day if everyone sits here pretending everything is OK (When it clearly isn't) then we've got a problem.

Far better, IMHO, to assess the situation rationally, realise there is something amiss, seek answers and then see about putting thing right.

I am a big fan of tivo and it's technology and would love to see the underdog win in the UK. By being critical of the current way Tivo is sold hopefully someone will do something before it's too late. If we all sit here and keep quiet then nothing will get done.

My four-penneth.

[iankb]

The danger with this approach is that it will just scare people off and make your own prophecy come true. :(

Hopefully the present interest will stir somebody up to fill the gap, or announce their intentions. If demand is killed by persistent adverse comments, then there is no doubt that the TiVo will die.

Ian.