Hard Drive Failure Poll

[Runch Machine]

Over the years the question has been posed, does putting a DirecTivo into Standby reduce the wear on the Hard Drive so that it may last longer? No one has been able to provide an answer. We know that putting DirecTivo into standby stops the 30 minute buffer and reduces the amount of writing done by the drive.

I have two HD Tivos and always put them on Standby when they are not being used. One is about two years old and the original drive still works great. My brother's HD Tivo is about 18 months old and the drive failed recently. He doesn't bother with standby.

For those who have experience a Hard Drive failure, please indicate if you usually put your Tivo into Standy mode when you are not using it or not.

[alv]

I would also like to see if people with hard drive failures have subwoofers.

[newsposter]

good point about the woofs...i know my dads crt got knocked out of alignment because they had a treadmill next to it and my sister was an exercise freak :)

[JimSpence]

I don't use standby on any of my DirecTV DVRs (T60, DSR6000, and HR10-250) and have not had a drive failure. However, the HR is too new. The SD TiVos have been on for over four years.

[Mark Lopez]

I think the poll may be flawed. IMO most people don't use standby, so of course there would be a larger number of failures for that group. The poll should have been multiple choice with something like these choices:

1. I use standby
2. I don't use standby
3. I have had a hard drive failure
4. I have not had a hard drive failure

That way we could see the percentages of each group.

<edit>

After thinking about it, I'm not sure that will work either since it will not distinguish which group actually had the failures. It might need to be a single selection poll with groupings in each:

1. I use standby and have not had a hd failure
2. I use standby and have had a hd failure
3. I don't use standby and have not had a hd failure
4. I don't use standby and have had a hd failure

then a little manual math to get the percentages for each.

[phox_mulder]

I just noticed something the other day, first on my HR10-250, then my R10.
Ok, I guess I haven't paid attention to the front panel controls much.

SA TiVo's have a "standy" mode, but you have to access through the online menu.

Both DirecTV TiVo's have an actual Standby button on the front panel.

I would think they wouldn't waste time or money putting it there if it didn't actually accomplish anything, hard drive failure wise.

That being said, I've been putting my SA TiVo into standby since I first got it,
and have been doing the same with my two D*TiVo's as well.

No failures yet, but really haven't had them long enough to tell.
SA for 3 years, R10 for 1 year, HR10-250 for little over a month.


phox

[Runch Machine]

I think the poll may be flawed. IMO most people don't use standby, so of course there would be a larger number of failures for that group. The poll should have been multiple choice with something like these choices:

1. I use standby
2. I don't use standby
3. I have had a hard drive failure
4. I have not had a hard drive failure

That way we could see the percentages of each group.

Great suggestion, unfortunately the poll can't be changed after it has started. After this runs for a while I will do it again with your additions.

[jpeckinp]

My drive just failed this week. I had the HR10-250 for 7 months. I never used the Standby mode. I am going to try it with my replacement and see what happens. I think I will also buy a backup drive from weaknees or Ptv.

[phox_mulder]

Great suggestion, unfortunately the poll can't be changed after it has started. After this runs for a while I will do it again with your additions.

Moderator can edit a poll.

PM one and see if they know how.


phox

[rminsk]

The poll is flawed in that it needs the has not failed catagories. The poll would still be meaningless because you need to know how long each unit has been in service. Even then the poll would be meaningless for people that have swapped out there hard drives with a different brand/model. To make the poll meaningfull you would have to have the exact drive model, how long the drive has been in service, what percentage of time the unit has been in standby, ...

[vertigo235]

As others have hinted, your poll will only determine the percentage of those who do and do not use standby, there is 0 correlation to hard drive failure and the use of standby.

[vertigo235]

hmm, I didn't know the buffer was disabled when you enable standby, I guess that could reduce some wear on the drive, but you would probably want to disable suggestions too

[phox_mulder]

Buffer is disabled on my S2 and R10 in standby, but standby doesn't seem to kill the buffer on the HR10-250,
there are no lights on, but when I hit the TiVo button and go to live TV,
there's a buffer there.


phox

[Wolffpack]

After thinking about it, I'm not sure that will work either since it will not distinguish which group actually had the failures. It might need to be a single selection poll with groupings in each:

1. I use standby and have not had a hd failure
2. I use standby and have had a hd failure
3. I don't use standby and have not had a hd failure
4. I don't use standby and have had a hd failure

then a little manual math to get the percentages for each.
I agree. But the poll also doesn't have to be limited to HR10's All my HDVR2's are never in standby and I've not had a HD failure on any of them yet.....knock wood.

[rminsk]

Buffer is disabled on my S2 and R10 in standby, but standby doesn't seem to kill the buffer on the HR10-250,
there are no lights on, but when I hit the TiVo button and go to live TV,
there's a buffer there.The HR10-250 like all other DirecTIVos stop recording the 30-minute buffer in standby mode. It does not delete what it had buffered but does not record anything new.

[phox_mulder]

The HR10-250 like all other DirecTIVos stop recording the 30-minute buffer in standby mode. It does not delete what it had buffered but does not record anything new.

Interesting.
I do notice hard drive noise seems stop after a while in standby, but everytime I've "turned it on" there was a buffer there,
never bothered to rewind to see what it was though.


phox

[Runch Machine]

Interesting.
I do notice hard drive noise seems stop after a while in standby, but everytime I've "turned it on" there was a buffer there,
never bothered to rewind to see what it was though.


phox

IF the Tivo was recording a program on one tuner, there will be a buffer on the other tuner. This could be why.

[vertigo235]

Buffer is disabled on my S2 and R10 in standby, but standby doesn't seem to kill the buffer on the HR10-250,
there are no lights on, but when I hit the TiVo button and go to live TV,
there's a buffer there.


phox


That may explain why I didn't notice this, I have a T-60 and a HR10, must be a sw 6+ feature.

[vertigo235]

Or maybe not, does S1 DTiVo do this?

[TyroneShoes]

...Both DirecTV TiVo's have an actual Standby button on the front panel.

I would think they wouldn't waste time or money putting it there if it didn't actually accomplish anything...It does accomplish one thing, and that is to create the perception that the Tivo can be "turned off". Sometimes creating a perception about a user interface can be more important than explaining the reality or facilitating a pardigm shift in expected behavior.

A good example is the external pull-out antenna on a cell phone. Most people think pulling this plastic antenna out or at least having the antenna physically protrude from the cell phone body is important for reception, but at the frequencies used and with the materials used to make cell phones, having the antenna built completely internal will work technically just as well. Yet 90% of cell phones still have a protruding antenna, or at least a fake antenna, all just to make people feel better. Many folks will subconciously pass over a phone without this little protruding bump in favor of a phone that has one when faced with a purchasing decision. It's familiar and conveys quality and "seems" important, even though that is complete fantasy.

It's what they are conditioned to and what they expect, and so having a ridiculous non-working nubbin protruding from a cell phone serves a real purpose, which is the false perception of better reception. Unfortunately it also gets caught on just about everything you brush up against while clipped onto your belt (so I wish they'd just wake up, smell the propane, and internalize the damned antenna already!)

Folks are conditioned to think it's important to turn something off when not in use, so maybe the perception of an on-off switch is important, but of course Tivo is busy 24/7, recording our shows, recording suggestions, receiving service uodates, indexing its program guide and To Do list, etc. Anyone who ever owned a Tivo knows that the concepts of a PVR are non-intuitive at first, and that it takes some getting used to before we really understand how to best use it. I know when I first bought Tivo in 1999 I couldn't at first for the life of me understand why there was no button that would stop or pause a recording as I had been accustomed to for 20 years on all my VCRs.

[Jimmmmbo!]

IF the Tivo was recording a program on one tuner, there will be a buffer on the other tuner. This could be why.

I've always noticed my hard drive in my HR10-250 crunching away when in standby. Even when I tune both tuners to nonexisting channels so that there is no signal to buffer, it still crunches away in standby. It does ease up some, but not enough to totally convince me that I'm doing something significant to the way the Tivo is operating.

I still try to remember to do this anyway (tune both tuners to nonexisting channels, then standby) just to try to reduce risk of HD failure since I've already lost one.

Of course, once a recording starts, at least one tuner will get tuned to a real channel, defeating the purpose of tuning to non-channels anyway.

[rminsk]

I've always noticed my hard drive in my HR10-250 crunching away when in standby.The DirecTiVo can still be downloading guide data, indexing the guide data, GC, ...
I still try to remember to do this anyway (tune both tuners to nonexisting channels, then standby) just to try to reduce risk of HD failure since I've already lost one.Why tune the DirecTiVo to nonexisting channels and standby? Standby should be fine.

[Chris Blount]

I am going on my 4th HD-Tivo in 2 years and ALWAYS use standby.

Also remember that if the HDTivo is tuned to a local OTA channel, it will buffer in standby.

[rminsk]

Also remember that if the HDTivo is tuned to a local OTA channel, it will buffer in standby.It does not buffer in standby even if it is a local channel.

[Chris Blount]

It does not buffer in standby even if it is a local channel.

Mine always has since the first day I got one.

[AbMagFab]

This is meaningless without knowing the percentage of people who use Standby.

For example, if only 20% of the folks use standby, and you get a 20% on the "standby and failed" option above, then it means standby has no effect on HD failure. Significantly more than 20% means standby might negatively impact HD life. Significantly less than 20% means standby might help HD life.

But without the baseline, you'll get no useful information from this poll. Suggest you close it down and try again. However, since you'll get a signifcantly skewed percentage of people with problems responding, you won't get an accurate baseline anyway.

So overall, "move along - no useful data to be found here".

[DeWitt]

When I had the usual issues, slow response to remote, skipping and lockups etc. issues, everyone who posted here said I clearly needed a new hard drive. Turns out the data was simply corrupt, reimaging fixed all of the issues. Makes me wonder how many "hard drive failures" are just software issues. Yes, replacing the hard drive would have fixed the problem, but the underlying problem was not the hard drive.

And I do use standby....

[Phod]

Possible to reimage without taking the hard drive out? Sorry I'm kinda tech newb about these kind of things. The fear is I would try this, it doesn't work, then DirecTV says no replacement since you opened it up.

[Chris Blount]

When I had the usual issues, slow response to remote, skipping and lockups etc. issues, everyone who posted here said I clearly needed a new hard drive. Turns out the data was simply corrupt, reimaging fixed all of the issues. Makes me wonder how many "hard drive failures" are just software issues. Yes, replacing the hard drive would have fixed the problem, but the underlying problem was not the hard drive.

And I do use standby....Good point.

In my case, the last two hard drives were definitely bad. As soon as you plug in the unit, the hard drive would click very loudly.

[DavidTigerFan]

It has been said many times that standby does not power down the hard drives of any tivo unit, all it does is turn off the video pass through.

[Wolffpack]

When I had the usual issues, slow response to remote, skipping and lockups etc. issues, everyone who posted here said I clearly needed a new hard drive. Turns out the data was simply corrupt, reimaging fixed all of the issues. Makes me wonder how many "hard drive failures" are just software issues. Yes, replacing the hard drive would have fixed the problem, but the underlying problem was not the hard drive.

And I do use standby....
Or...possibly....an upgrade to 6.2. There were software issues in the 3.1.x family thus 4.x and 6.2. I read somewhere (?) that DTV has been delivered 6.2 versions for the HR10 but what kind of priority could that upgrade be getting? DTV and Tivo still do have a contract.

[Jimmmmbo!]

Makes me wonder how many "hard drive failures" are just software issues.

Mine was definitely a hard drive. Confirmed by running Western Digital's diagnostics.

[Jimmmmbo!]

The DirecTiVo can still be downloading guide data, indexing the guide data, GC, ...
Why tune the DirecTiVo to nonexisting channels and standby? Standby should be fine.

I'm sure that it is downloading data. But if it's processing as much data downloading guide data as it takes to buffer 2 channels of HD content, then I'd like to know what's in those datastreams.

As noted in several other posts here, the HDTivo does continue to buffer in standby. There is no buffering on nonexistent channels, same as on other channels like the music channels.

[Wolffpack]

Geez-oh-petes. If a hard drive is powered up and spinning (as the HR10 is in standby) it's running. How do you figure "if it's not recording it isn't doing as much". Check with folks in IT that support drives farms. A drive is on, it's on. That's it. There are not varying degrees of being on.

Ya want HR10 HDs to stop failing, have DTV stop putting WD POS drives in them.

Anyone ever see the 250GB drives for sale on woot.com? Almost all of those were old WD drives with the secret HR10 star stamp on them. Many of those were also DOA.

[rminsk]

As noted in several other posts here, the HDTivo does continue to buffer in standby. There is no buffering on nonexistent channels, same as on other channels like the music channels.The DirecTiVo DOES NOT buffer in stand-by. It will not clear the existing buffer unless it has to change channels to record something. Go to a channel that has a clock in the corner. Put your machine in standby for a few minutes. Leave standby and look at the buffer.

[rminsk]

Geez-oh-petes. If a hard drive is powered up and spinning (as the HR10 is in standby) it's running. How do you figure "if it's not recording it isn't doing as much". Check with folks in IT that support drives farms. A drive is on, it's on. That's it. There are not varying degrees of being on.There are differing degrees of being on. Spinning the hard drive platter does not cause as much wear and tear on a drive as a drive head seeking, writing, and reading. The less I/O going on the less the drive heads move. In the place where I work the have over 100 terabytes of drive space. During times of heavy I/O we do see an increased number of drive failures.

[Phod]

So what's the "professional" verdict? Would using standby help anything in terms of lengthening the life of the drive?

[newsposter]

I think their answer is like asking coke vs pepsi

[rminsk]

So what's the "professional" verdict? Would using standby help anything in terms of lengthening the life of the drive?Couldn't hurt (with my Yiddish accent)

[newsposter]

Couldn't hurt (with my Yiddish accent)

.wav file please :)

i'm surprised no one wrote back and said that stopping and starting is just as bad as continually writing ;)