Flash Drive Storage

[mkpatt]

Just saw a story where Samsung developed a laptop with a 32 GB flash drive instead of a hard drive. How long do you think it will be before we see a Tivo with flash drive storage instead of a hard drive? I'm assuming it will happen in the next 3 - 4 years, maybe sooner if the technology develops faster.

[Aflat]

I think its going to be alot longer then that. People want more storage on their DVR's, and with HD coming, they will need more, much much more as more channels start moving to HD.

Solid state memory doesn't do much for a DVR, less noise and less heat is about it, but since the unit doesn't really move much, there shouldn't be a big push for flash memory.

[Puppy76]

Yeah, I can't see this happeneing for at least a decade, probably much, much longer than that (when hard drives have been phased out for...I don't know, holocrystals or something? :D )

Flash memory is REEEEEEEEALLY expensive compared to hard drive space, and as mentioned the demands for space are only going to increase in the mid term. Plus Tivo tries to make the hardware as inexpensive as possible. Even the current S2 costs some real money to build (and they're trying to essentially sell them for just $70 or so now). And the S3 may cost $400-600 or more.

The 250GB Series 3 Tivo will apperently only hold 25-30 hours of most HD content, which means it probably needs to be expanded to around 750GB to have enough storage for a single heavy user to use it comfortably. Can you imagine how much that would cost to replace it with Flash?

And plus, Tivos don't need super-ultra quick access to stuff nessisarily. The current S2 just has a 5400RPM drive, yet handles two or three streams of video smoothly.

[Sirshagg]

What's the plus side to using flash memory instead of a hard drive in a TiVo? There does not seem to be a bottleneck due to the hard drive.

[atmuscarella]

I don't see Flash memory replacing hard drives for video storage but I could see it being used to hold the operating system and the 30 min buffer.

Given that hard drives are the main reason that TiVos fail I could see a box in the future box like the Series 3 that used flash for the operating system and buffer, but didn't have any other internal hard drive - just used external sata drives for video storage, very easy to fix when the drives go bad. Without lifetime equipment longevity really benefits TiVo and removing hard drives from the main TiVo box is one way to do it.

Thanks,

atmuscarella

[dtreese]

What's the plus side to using flash memory instead of a hard drive in a TiVo? There does not seem to be a bottleneck due to the hard drive.

It's not a matter of memory speed, it's a matter of the eternal nemesis of electronics equipment -- heat. Solid state memory generates almost no heat compared to a hard drive. Without a motor, it's more difficult to break -- at least in theory.

[Dan203]

I don't see Flash memory replacing hard drives for video storage but I could see it being used to hold the operating system and the 30 min buffer.

Given that hard drives are the main reason that TiVos fail I could see a box in the future box like the Series 3 that used flash for the operating system and buffer, but didn't have any other internal hard drive - just used external sata drives for video storage, very easy to fix when the drives go bad. Without lifetime equipment longevity really benefits TiVo and removing hard drives from the main TiVo box is one way to do it.

That would be pretty cool! :up: Although I'm not sure about using external drives exclusively. They're not usually very attractive and I can't see a lot of people wanting one in their living room. However I could seem them using some sort of ejectable tray for the hard drive so that the user could easily sawp it out if it dies. As long as everything else the TiVo needed to function was on flash storage the user could hot swap a drive the drive in 2 minutes and be back up and running. They could even provide pictures on screen to show you how to do it. :)

Dan

[dgh]

I suppose the people who put TiVos in their bedrooms and then complain about the hard drive noise would like this.

[Puppy76]

That's true-I can't use one in my bedroom and would like to. Theoretically maybe they could build sort of an extender device with a smallish cache that would mostly rely on streaming shows from another Tivo. I would go for something like that (especially if it had a reduced/eliminated subscription fee).

[Aflat]

That's true-I can't use one in my bedroom and would like to. Theoretically maybe they could build sort of an extender device with a smallish cache that would mostly rely on streaming shows from another Tivo. I would go for something like that (especially if it had a reduced/eliminated subscription fee).


If you want a Tivo in the bedroom and the HD noise bothers you, just turn the Tivo to a channel you don't get when not in use. It won't record anything, so no hard drive ticking.

[Puppy76]

I still can't take the drive and fan noise, even when the 30 minute buffer's shut off. Tivo's a lot quieter than a normal computer, but it's still way too loud for me to use in a bedroom.

[Dan203]

Putting it in a cabinet of some sort will also help muffle the noise.

Dan

[Puppy76]

It's nice for my living room (I have it in an old stereo case with a clase front door), but that dosen't muffle it enough for my bedroom. I'm not sure if theoretically some all-wood case could do it or not, since the back would still have to be open.

[Dan203]

I believe companies like Weaknees also sell fan upgrades that are supose to be better then the factory installed one. That's another option.

Dan

[mkpatt]

What's the plus side to using flash memory instead of a hard drive in a TiVo? There does not seem to be a bottleneck due to the hard drive.
I could see a couple of uses for them, but primarily the fact that the HD is the only moving part makes it subject to failure more frequently. Being able to use flash storage reduces the failure rate, noise and heat. But also if they developed it further, I can see being able to plug in a second flash module and transferring shows onto the portable flash drive to take with you when you travel. I don't see it taking ten years either. I give it five unless there is some almost insurmountable technical problem.

[Guindalf]

There is no commercial advantage to using flash memory in a TiVo. It's sold as a living room product - there's not too much call from the general populus for a "bedroom TiVo".

Also, hard drives are a LOT cheaper than flash storage, so I can see much bigger drives becoming available long before anyone thinks of putting a flash drive in a TiVo unless someone comes up with a very cheap way of manufacturing them.

[mkpatt]

Yes, right now flash drive storage is expensive. But it will probably come down in the next few years as it becomes more and more common. I may be wrong, but as I see it, the days of the mechanical hard drive are numbered.

[juanian]

<not_sure_if_I_should_say_this_mode_but>
We have two S2 models. a 140 and 540, and the fans are very quiet, especially compared to other noise generating devices that exist in a bedroom (like the noise from air blowing from the forced-air heating/AC vent, or one of those "old fashioned" clocks that tick). At least the fan noise from a TiVo is consistent (not turning on and off like a heater). But, the temperature in our bedroom does stay under 85 degrees, so the TiVo fans don't need to ramp up to a higher (and noisier) speed.

Now, there is some noticable clatter from the HD when it is doing the daily update (or some other disk-intensive function, like bring up the To Do list), but I don't think that there is much noise more than HD clicks every second or two during normal activity. Plus, I don't think that the sound would be very noticable (unless the TiVo is by the head of the bed and not somewhere like at the foot of the bed).

Reminds me of the post I read a while ago somewhere here where someone gave a relative a free TiVo, but they returned it before even completing guided setup because the fan was too noisy. What model of Tivo has a fan that is that noisy?!?

Of course, your mileage may vary.
</not_sure_if_I_should_say_this_mode_but>

EDIT: yea, I wanted to say that I hope this doesn't take this thread too much more off topic, but I forgot (until after hitting Submit).