S3 vs. Motorola with TiVo

[btl-a4]

I know the Moto with TiVo isn't out yet but I got to thinking about the cost of a S3 with comcast vs. the Comcast Moto box with TiVo installed. I just got off the phone with comcast. My first cable card is going to cost me $5 a month, the second $11.95. If the S3 requires 2 cards I'm already at $16.95 a month without buying the TiVo or the service plan. If you had to go at $12.95 a month you are at $29.90 a month, 23.90 if you get the MSD. I have a Lifetime card to use but even with that I'm still looking at $16.95 a month. Right now I'm paying $9.95 a month for the dual tuner MOTO HD DVR. Even if they bump the price to $19.95 with TiVo installed I'm looking at 100 months to repay my $300 lifetime off, not including the cost of the box. If it's lower than $19.95 longer, if ever. Now I'm starting to think that maybe I won't get an S3.

[lajohn27]

An S-3 will require two cards until the multistream card spec is finalized. Then it will only require one multistream card.

And man.. 5$ for a cablecard.. that's nuts.

J

[dgh]

An S-3 will require two cards until the multistream card spec is finalized. Then it will only require one multistream card.


And by cable company logic, that one should rent for $18.95/month ;)

[Amnesia]

For me, the real issue is that the S3 will allow for additional storage. My Comcast Motorola will not---and I think I'd quickly run out if I recorded stuff in HD...

[RARamaker]

From Comcast's website:

There is no additional charge for CableCARD service above what you currently pay for Digital Cable service (NOTE: additional outlet charges for programming may apply).

http://www.comcast.com/Support/Corp1/FAQ/FaqDetail_2651.html

Russ

[btl-a4]

From Comcast's website:



http://www.comcast.com/Support/Corp1/FAQ/FaqDetail_2651.html

Russ

Yeah I read that already. I was calling to double check and got the $5 first $11.95 second answer.

[boblip11]

I have a Comcast cablecard in my sharp aquos here in Connecticut. There was no charge for the cable card.

As with most big call center operations....try again until you get the answer you want.

[btl-a4]

Just got off them for the second time and here is the deal. Cablecards are free for non-hd service. But if you want the HD service on the card it is $5 for first $11.95 for second. So basically they are charging for HD service at $5 for first tv $11.95 for second TV, even though they are on the same box. I told them it would be for the same device and they said the pricing would stay the same. That is the exact price I'm paying right now for HD serice with a box. My first box cost $5 a month on top of digital service. another 4.95 for the dvr on that box for a total of 9.95. I just got the second box in the bedroom and that is running 11.95 with no DVR, an additional 4.95 if I want DVR service on it.

[dt_dc]

From Comcast's website:

http://www.comcast.com/Support/Corp1/FAQ/FaqDetail_2651.htmlI believe Comcast charges you $5 for a digital box AND includes an optional CableCard in that (if you ask for it) for "free". But you can't just get the CableCard by itself for "free" ... you gotta pay the $5 whether you want the box or not.

So then a second CableCard costs another $5 (for the box and your "free" CableCard) ... and then there's the "additional digital outlet" charge.

I'm not on Comcast so I can't say for sure ... but this has been my impression based on people's comments.

Amazing how expensive "no additional charge" can get.

Edit: Note, this would seem to be a violation of cable hardware pricing controls. They're not supposed to be able to force an equipment 'bundle' like that (unless they have filed for and got 'effective competition' status). I dunno ... a complaint to your franchise authority might be in order.

Edit: As always ... different cable plants, different CSRs, different rules seem to apply. Hard to say anything universal for "Comcast".

[btl-a4]

I have a Comcast cablecard in my sharp aquos here in Connecticut. There was no charge for the cable card.

As with most big call center operations....try again until you get the answer you want.

do you have HD service on that card?

[lessd]

For me, the real issue is that the S3 will allow for additional storage. My Comcast Motorola will not---and I think I'd quickly run out if I recorded stuff in HD...

Get the new Moto DCT3412 with 160G or 320G drive in it, Comcast is comming out with an external deive for their new Moto boxes.

Cable cards cost $2.5 per outlet I think I can convince them S3 is only one outlet, however as Moto improves their boxes the cost for a S3 may not too practical as with the Comcast Moto box you have a unlimited warranty on sight, tough for TiVo to compete with.

[yunlin12]

Question is how much Tivo would the Moto box have, HME? TivoToGo? I'm gonna upgrade to HD with a ~$2000+ HDTV, an extra $10/month to put the best content on that TV ain't too big of a deal.

[Dan203]

Wow that's excessive! I talked to Charter a while back and they said CableCARDs are $2 each regardless of how many you have. I hope they haven't changed their mind and implimented some strange pricing scheme like this.

Man is it just me or do the cable companies seem like they are doing anything they can to prevent CableCARD based DVRs from taking off. Even with the government mandate they're skirting around the law with switched channels and excessive pricing. :down:

Dan

[aztivo]

5 bucks for a Cable card is crazy with cox it is 2 bucks a card if I want 1 or 10 it is still just 2 bucks per card

[HDTiVo]

I know its not out yet, but I've been thinking about that interplanetary Mercedes - the one with Warp Factor 3 - vs the MTA's Long Range Transporter service.

Is it worth it to buy the IP Benz, or should I just get monthly MetroCards with interstellar privileges?

I hope this is not too off topic, because I really need advice now so I can stop the ruminations.

Thanks in advance.

[btl-a4]

I know its not out yet, but I've been thinking about that interplanetary Mercedes - the one with Warp Factor 3 - vs the MTA's Long Range Transporter service.

Is it worth it to buy the IP Benz, or should I just get monthly MetroCards with interstellar privileges?

I hope this is not too off topic, because I really need advice now so I can stop the ruminations.

Thanks in advance.
Which auto show did they debute that model? Cause the S3 was at CES. And the TiVO deal with comcast has ben published a couple places.

[HDTiVo]

Which auto show did they debute that model? Cause the S3 was at CES. And the TiVO deal with comcast has ben published a couple places.
Oh, yes thank you. That reminds me, I absolutely must know, what year will I be able to see a prototype of the IP Benz at a trade show, and what will be the estimated release date?

Please anyone, chime in, I'm really desperate.

Oh, and in advance of your response(s), can you narrow that estimated release date range down a little too?

[Puppy76]

I didn't think they could legally do that? I thought it was regulated to a few dollars a card, max?

Why the HEY did people vote in politians willing to lift cable price controls? Prices were nuts BEFORE they lifted controls, and they're just amazing now...

[ChuckyBox]

It is unlikely that the S3 will be price-competitive with the Comcast-TiVo boxes. If price is your only concern, then you'll end up with Comcast. But there may be other features you want that won't be available on the Comcast-TiVo boxes, like TTG, internet downloads, etc. Then you, like most consumers purchasing CE gear, will have to make a decision about what features are worth how much to you. For non-Comcast customers, there is an additional consideration: the TiVo interface vs. the generic interface.

[moyekj]

I talked to my provider (Cox Communications) a while back about renting 2 CableCards from them and this is the info I got:
CableCard 1: $2/month + $5.00 HD service
CableCard 2: $2/month + $1.50 for "additional digital outlet" charge + $5.00 HD service
So that's $15.50/month.

(Of course they want 2x the CableCard installation charge as well since they insist on sending a tech over for CableCard installation).

Currently the HD DVR is $10/month + $5/month for DVR service = $15/month.

So like the OP once I add in monthly fees for S3 this becomes pretty expensive monthly bill. With lifetime it looked a little more attractive to me but with monthly it's hard to justify that much more per month compared to the current cable co. HD DVR (Motorola DCT6416 with Passport Echo software which is fairly decent). I will probably try out the S3 for only a year once it comes out and see if it's worth paying that much of a premium.

[Amnesia]

CableCard 1: $2/month + $5.00 HD service
CableCard 2: $2/month + $1.50 for "additional digital outlet" charge + $5.00 HD service.I don't get why the 2nd costs more than the first. Shouldn't it be the other way around (if anything)?

[ChuckyBox]

I talked to my provider (Cox Communications) a while back about renting 2 CableCards from them and this is the info I got:
CableCard 1: $2/month + $5.00 HD service
CableCard 2: $2/month + $1.50 for "additional digital outlet" charge + $5.00 HD service
So that's $15.50/month.

(Of course they want 2x the CableCard installation charge as well since they insist on sending a tech over for CableCard installation).

Currently the HD DVR is $10/month + $5/month for DVR service = $15/month.

Hmm, Charter wants $11.99/month from me for the DVR service, but it is Moxi, so I guess that explains it. I don't have the rest of the breakdown, but maybe I can dig it up somewhere.

You could always skip the cable HD, and use the S3's ability to tune OTA HD channels. It wouldn't be as much content as the cable offering, but the price is right.

[Puppy76]

What's amazing to me is that cable companies *CHARGE* for HD content. They won't be able to get away with that within a few years.

Cable/satelite/etc. seem behind the times compared to over the air broadcasts in that regard...

[dgh]

They've been charging for local NTSC stations over cable for decades so why not?

[moyekj]

Yes, HD service fee is kind of ridiculous. What's worse, if you want ESPN HD and/or Discovery HD they are an additional $5/month above the normal $5/month HD service fee. After visiting the web site and even talking to a CSR it's still very difficult to figure out all the charges until you get the bill. And even the bill can be confusing since in some cases they bundle charges together instead of breaking them out so it's impossible to make sense of it all.

Via OTA I can get most network HD channels in my area right now so I may consider just sticking with 1 CableCard with the S3, at least initially. Will be interesting to see exactly how the S3 is going to deal with mixed OTA/cable lineup and only 1 CableCard (which restricts QAM recording to 1 tuner for encrypted channels).

The other tuner should be able to record unencrypted channels (clear QAM) but it's not at all obvious how that will translate into listings since without CableCard they map into different channel numbers than with CableCard. And for channels without PSIP information there won't be any information about station identification so not sure how the Tivo software will deal with it - hopefully you will be able to assign them whatever channel numbers you want.

[lessd]

Yes, HD service fee is kind of ridiculous. What's worse, if you want ESPN HD and/or Discovery HD they are an additional $5/month above the normal $5/month HD service fee. After visiting the web site and even talking to a CSR it's still very difficult to figure out all the charges until you get the bill. And even the bill can be confusing since in some cases they bundle charges together instead of breaking them out so it's impossible to make sense of it all.

Via OTA I can get most network HD channels in my area right now so I may consider just sticking with 1 CableCard with the S3, at least initially. Will be interesting to see exactly how the S3 is going to deal with mixed OTA/cable lineup and only 1 CableCard (which restricts QAM recording to 1 tuner for encrypted channels).

The other tuner should be able to record unencrypted channels (clear QAM) but it's not at all obvious how that will translate into listings since without CableCard they map into different channel numbers than with CableCard. And for channels without PSIP information there won't be any information about station identification so not sure how the Tivo software will deal with it - hopefully you will be able to assign them whatever channel numbers you want.

Do you know if HD channels are in "clear QAM" ? I not referring to HBO type stuff just the networks.

[moyekj]

Do you know if HD channels are in "clear QAM" ? I not referring to HBO type stuff just the networks. Yes, I think by FCC regulations the same network channels that you could potentially receive over the air in your area cannot be encrypted so those are always in the clear. Also, if your cable company is already deploying digital simulcasting of analog channels (SD digital versions of the analog channels) the network versions of those are also in the clear. I have a couple of QAM-capable tuners (without CableCard) which can tune to these network HD & SD digital channels. As a bonus you can also tune VOD channels which for whatever reason are typically unencrypted as well. Of course you are at the whim of what and how your neighbors watch VOD for those. Finally there are also the analog (NTSC) and music channels which are in the clear as well.

For the network HD channels cable companies typically are just passing along the OTA broadcast channels and so these channels contain PSIP information which identify their OTA broadcast name and channel number among other things. Thus if OTA ABCHD is carried as 7-1 Tivo could read that information and map is as such even though it's tuning it from your cable signal instead of OTA.

However, for example the digital simulcast channels have no PSIP information so the digital SD version of ABC is on QAM RF channel 99-4 for example with no channel information so I'm curious as to how Tivo (without CableCard) will handle these channels in the clear without PSIP information. You need to be able to map them to a proper channel number for guide/scheduling to be useful for those. When you have CableCard it takes care of such channel mapping, but without CableCard it has to be a manual process and you are at the whim of headend changes.

[old64mb]

Actually, when I still had my Comcast box the CableCard was free - it was merely if you added the CableCard along with the 6412 that they'd charge you $3.95 a month. This was 6 months ago, but I'm pretty sure the first CableCard has to be free.

[samo]

Oh, yes thank you. That reminds me, I absolutely must know, what year will I be able to see a prototype of the IP Benz at a trade show, and what will be the estimated release date?

Please anyone, chime in, I'm really desperate.

Oh, and in advance of your response(s), can you narrow that estimated release date range down a little too?
I agree with Hdtivo here. Both S3 and Comcast with TiVo have been announced, but neither is available yet. We don't know anything about pricing. It will be hard to make a decision even after both products become available (for example it is anybody's guess wich one will have more bugs), but at this time any comparison is pointless.

[ChuckyBox]

(for example it is anybody's guess wich one will have more bugs)
If people want bugs, they can get an R15.

[samo]

If people want bugs, they can get an R15.
Actually R15 is getting better (DTV had 4 or 5 updates already), but not as fast as many people were hopping for.:) Traditionally, TiVo has less bugs on new hardware release than most competitors (of course every single new hardware release from TiVo had bugs, but not as bad as others), but don't forget that Comcast Tivo will be running on Motorola and SA hardware - big unknown in my book. S3 may be worth the extra money just on reliability alone. Or twisting the logic in another direction - S3 hardware may not be as reliable as proven designs from cable box manufacturers. Regardless of the twist - you can not solve this equation with two unknowns before you define at least one of them. :)

[ZeoTiVo]

I talked to my provider (Cox Communications) a while back about renting 2 CableCards from them and this is the info I got:
CableCard 1: $2/month + $5.00 HD service
CableCard 2: $2/month + $1.50 for "additional digital outlet" charge + $5.00 HD service
So that's $15.50/month.

(Of course they want 2x the CableCard installation charge as well since they insist on sending a tech over for CableCard installation).

Currently the HD DVR is $10/month + $5/month for DVR service = $15/month.

So like the OP once I add in monthly fees for S3 this becomes pretty expensive monthly bill. With lifetime it looked a little more attractive to me but with monthly it's hard to justify that much more per month compared to the current cable co. HD DVR (Motorola DCT6416 with Passport Echo software which is fairly decent). I will probably try out the S3 for only a year once it comes out and see if it's worth paying that much of a premium.

so how can they legally charge for HD on the cable card adn not charge the same HD fee on the HD DVR ??

[tj722]

I'm not sure which one is going to be the better choice, but either one is an improvement over the Motorola 6412 with iGuide. I have a feeling the Comcast/TiVo will be out first, but who knows what areas will actually get it.

I'm going to at least try both, but I *know* that the 120GB hard drive on the Moto 6412 box is inadequate to say the least.

[moyekj]

so how can they legally charge for HD on the cable card adn not charge the same HD fee on the HD DVR ?? That is part of the confusion. I believe the HD fee is part of the HD DVR rental - i.e. a non HD box rental is $5/month while an HD-capable box rental is $10/month.

The other way you get screwed is to get HD channels (even just the network ones) you HAVE to sign up for digital service. Technically however simply signing up for basic service (traditionally the analog channels) is enough to tune QAM HD channels in the clear. One could argue that if you are signed up for basic service which includes network channels that you should also be able to get HD versions of them as well. However, I understand that it does cost money and bandwidth for cable companies to carry these network HD channels so am willing to subsidize that cost in the hope that it will also help fund other HD channels that cannot be obtained OTA.

[moyekj]

I'm not sure which one is going to be the better choice, but either one is an improvement over the Motorola 6412 with iGuide. I have a feeling the Comcast/TiVo will be out first, but who knows what areas will actually get it.

I'm going to at least try both, but I *know* that the 120GB hard drive on the Moto 6412 box is inadequate to say the least. My Cox market has had the DCT6416 (160GB drive) for a couple of months now. The extra 40GB gives you about 5 extra hours of HD recordings or so which certainly helps.

[jfh3]

However, for example the digital simulcast channels have no PSIP information so the digital SD version of ABC is on QAM RF channel 99-4 for example with no channel information so I'm curious as to how Tivo (without CableCard) will handle these channels in the clear without PSIP information. You need to be able to map them to a proper channel number for guide/scheduling to be useful for those. When you have CableCard it takes care of such channel mapping, but without CableCard it has to be a manual process and you are at the whim of headend changes.

This is my biggest concern with the potential Series 3 implementation - it needs to include a way to handle this situation, even if it's "edit your own channel map" like the Sony DHG box provides.

I probably won't be using a cable card (at least one one of my planned S3 boxes) and will be using cable only, but wanting to use the digital channel mappings where possible, rather than the analog equivilents (obviously key for HD broadcasts)

Today, you can get Tivo to create a custom lineup for you, so perhaps that's how it will be done.

[jfh3]

Technically however simply signing up for basic service (traditionally the analog channels) is enough to tune QAM HD channels in the clear. One could argue that if you are signed up for basic service which includes network channels that you should also be able to get HD versions of them as well.

Right.

If you have basic service and you have a device with a QAM tuner and you aren't getting HD feeds of the available HD broadcast stations, then your cable company isn't playing fair. In that case, send a note to your local franchising authority and the FCC.

[lessd]

This is my biggest concern with the potential Series 3 implementation - it needs to include a way to handle this situation, even if it's "edit your own channel map" like the Sony DHG box provides.

I probably won't be using a cable card (at least one one of my planned S3 boxes) and will be using cable only, but wanting to use the digital channel mappings where possible, rather than the analog equivilents (obviously key for HD broadcasts)

Today, you can get Tivo to create a custom lineup for you, so perhaps that's how it will be done.

How do you get TiVo to do a custom lineup ???

[jfh3]

How do you get TiVo to do a custom lineup ???

I don't remember, since it was a couple years back when I did, but I believe I just had a CSR open a case number. I remember trading a few emails and it took a few days, but it was pretty simple.

Found it:
http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv1050.htm

[d_anders]

...but at this time any comparison is pointless.

Yes, this is true, and until they're both out comparisons will be hard to finalize.

That said, one thing people do need to consider is the amount of control Comcast is likely to exert over the software platform on a Moto TiVo , vs a direct S3 from TiVo.

Many DirecTivo owners are painfully aware about how much control DirecTV has had over their boxes. Many new and innovative features will likely always be first released on the S3 platform, before they they're placed on the Comcast Moto Tivos...and additionally, it will likely always be comcast's call what final features will be on those boxes, not TiVo's.

So, yes, if you are a comcast customer you will have choice, and you may save a few dollars each month in comparison to the S3 box (but that's been the case with DirecTivo owners from the beginning too)...but you will also likely have more "tech" features like HME, TiVoToGo, IPTV services, etc., on the S3 box, than the comcast box. That may very well be worth additional $$ for some.

[smokinwrek]

$1,500.00 - That's what Tivo says a S3 with lifetime service is worth. Where do I get this value from, you ask? Why directly from Tivo - THE TIVO "IDOL SPECULATION" SWEEPSTAKES OFFICIAL RULES to be exact.

Now that price is probably (hopefully) not what it will actually sell for, but it defines the ballpark a little more.

Kevin

[jfh3]

$1,500.00 - That's what Tivo says a S3 with lifetime service is worth. Where do I get this value from, you ask? Why directly from Tivo - THE TIVO "IDOL SPECULATION" SWEEPSTAKES OFFICIAL RULES to be exact.

Now that price is probably (hopefully) not what it will actually sell for, but it defines the ballpark a little more.

Not really ... if you search other threads for this, you'll find that the $1500 figure was established by the legal team and tells us nothing. Unless you have a grandfathered Series 1 with lifetime or a lifetime gift subscription card, there's no other way to GET lifetime on a Series 3 box.

The only way we'll be able to know what a Series 3 with lifetime is really worth is to watch eBay the first few weeks after the box is released since presumably some enterprising individual(s) will buy a Series 3 box, activate it using a lifetime card and auction it off ...

[johnh123]

Get the new Moto DCT3412 with 160G or 320G drive in it, Comcast is coming out with an external drive for their new Moto boxes.


Where have you heard this? That is one of my main issues with the comcast boxes- not nearly enough HD recording space.

[lessd]

Where have you heard this? That is one of my main issues with the comcast boxes- not nearly enough HD recording space.

Google the Moto 3412 and they will tell you the size drives they have, I just got one from Comcast but its not the 320G one as they will not have them ready for a few more months. Comcast told me that they will have external drives and networking by the end of 2006, they are in the testing phase now. Whats nice about Comcast is the zero cost for new hardware although they I would guess they will charge extra for the external drive when it comes out.

[TR7spyder]

Any news on Moto 3412 running TIVO yet?

[lessd]

Any news on Moto 3412 running TIVO yet?

By the end of the year (by a HD tech at Comcast, they are testing now). OH the year was 2006.