TBS Lord Of The Rings commercials

[Sherminator]

Remember Brokeback To The Future? [youtube.com] (http://www.youtube.com/?v=zfODSPIYwpQ)

Whilst watching TV before going to work this morning, at about 4:30am EDT, TBS ran a commercial for their upcoming showings of LOTR:FOTR & TTT, very much Brokeback Mount Doom (http://tbs.com/broadband/videoplayer/0,,70636,00.html) :)

[Agatha Mystery]

I liked Gandalf's 'reaction'. :D

[gchance]

A little bit obvious target, isn't it?

Greg

[Sherminator]

Samwise's loyalty to Frodo was a bit strange for heterosexuality.

[markandjenn]

I can't imagine Peter Jackson is very happy with that ad.

[Sherminator]

I have a feeling that the 'fellowship' between Samwise & Frodo was written by Tolkein intentionally homosexual if not by both Hobbits but definitely actively by Samwise. It wouldn't be the 1st time that a sympathizer of any non evil, but downtrodden cause has subtly inserted into a work of fiction about another subject.

[kwurst]

I have a feeling that the 'fellowship' between Samwise & Frodo was written by Tolkein intentionally homosexual if not by both Hobbits but definitely actively by Samwise. It wouldn't be the 1st time that a sympathizer of any non evil, but downtrodden cause has subtly inserted into a work of fiction about another subject.

Toklien was a very devout Catholic, so it seems unlikely that any homosexuality would be intentional.

Tom Shippey, one of the foremost Tolkien scholars (who also held the same chair at Oxford that Tolkien did) in his book J.R.R. Tolkien, Author of the Century says that the relationship between Frodo and Sam is based that of a British officer and his "batman" - an enlisted man assigned to act as a servant to an officer. Tolkien had a very bad experience in WWI, losing many of his friends, and that experience is one of the major themes of LOTR.

I don't have Shippey's book, so I can't look up the passage directly but the following passage from JRR Tolkien and World War I (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/040102_02.html) by Nancy Marie Ott covers it pretty well:


Sam Gamgee, British Soldier

Tolkien had a great deal of respect for the privates and NCOs (non-commissioned officers) with whom he served in France. Officers did not make friends among the enlisted men, of course; the system did not allow it and there was a wide gulf of class differences between them. Officers generally came from the upper and middle classes; enlisted men usually came from the lower classes. However, each officer was assigned a batman – a servant who looked after his belongings and took care of him.

Tolkien got to know several of his batmen very well. These men and other men in Tolkien's battalion served as inspiration for the character Sam Gamgee. As Tolkien later wrote, "My 'Sam Gamgee' is indeed a reflection of the English soldier, of the privates and batmen I knew in the 1914 war, and recognized as so far superior to myself." Sam represents the courage, endurance and steadfastness of the British soldier, as well as his limited imagination and parochial viewpoint. Sam is stubbornly optimistic and refuses to give up, even when things seem hopeless. Indeed, the resiliency of Hobbits in general, their love of comfort, their sometimes hidden courage, and their conservative outlook owe much to Tolkien’s view of ordinary enlisted men. These traits enabled British soldiers not only to survive their tours of duty on the terrible battlefields of France, but to bravely attack and counter-attack the Germans.

The officer/batman paradigm also describes some aspects of Sam and Frodo's relationship. It is clearly not a formal one in a military sense, but it goes beyond that of an ordinary, civilian master and servant. Their relationship encompasses the closeness of soldiers who have been in combat together and who have depended on their comrades for their lives. Sam is steadfastly loyal to Frodo. He looks after Frodo's physical comfort – cooking, fetching water, and so forth – and helps Frodo on his quest as much as he possibly can, even carrying him up the slopes of Mount Doom when Frodo's strength gives out. He loves Frodo although he does not completely understand him. Sam also defends Frodo from danger when he is attacked by Shelob and rescues him from the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Sam and Frodo had been through terror and were tested against the lure of the Ring together, and were closer than a master-servant relationship would imply.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have also read Tolkien experts that refer to the British army officer's relationship to the enlisted man that acted as his servant/butler as Tolkien's inspiration. The aristocrat and commoner become a team...depend on each, help each other, care for each other. Tolkien fought in WWI and served as an officer in the British army and had a batman.

The Frodo/Sam relationship seems to be more of an idealization of the roles of the upper class and the lower classes in British society that has its roots stretching back to feudalism. Frodo is the educated and wealthy landowner. Sam is the simple peasant gardener. Sam is devoted and hardworking and idolizes his employer and is willing to follow his master into the gates of hell. Frodo is the kind noble looking after his faithful serf understanding that he needs his serf's labor as much as the serf needs his protection and guidance. It's all about servant and master working together as friends for the common good.

Tolkien wasn't really part of the counter culture that first embraced The Lord of the Rings in the 1960s. He was pretty conservative. And, because he was also an Anglo-Saxon scholar, I think the Frodo and Sam relationship probably has more to do with the British class system and the idealization of feudalism than it does with gay cowboys or gay cowboys eating pudding for that matter.

[bengalfreak]

Only in modern America could we somehow infer that the dedication shown between Frodo and Sam is somehow homosexual in nature.

[Sherminator]

Toklien was a very devout Catholic, so it seems unlikely that any homosexuality would be intentional.Catholics can be homosexual, I know of two that are, I probably know more that aren't open about it also.

[philw1776]

Catholics can be homosexual, I know of two that are, I probably know more that aren't open about it also.


No! Say it ain't so! Could they be...priests?

[Crash_Corrigan]

Catholics can be homosexual, I know of two that are, I probably know more that aren't open about it also.


Some people are sure that the "pipeweed" mentioned by Tolkien is the "weed" so many know and love today rather than some variation of tobacco, and that old J.R.R. spent his nights in his room creating Elvish languages and doing the chronic. I'm not convinced. Tolkien grew up in rural England. He didn't hang out in London partying with Oscar Wilde.

And, just because kids in junior high snicker as they read Oliver Twist when they stumble across a character named Bates being referred to as "Master Bates", doesn't mean that Charles Dickens was secretly an advocate of self stimulation.

Now, if Sam had come back to the Shire and married a dude named Ross instead of a girl named Rosie, you might have a better case. Or, if he and Merry and Pippin had bought the Green Dragon Inn and turned it into a leather bar, but that must have been cut out of an early draft of the book.

Of course, in Jack and the Beanstalk, Jack is clearly gay because he can't control his urge to climb up on a big stalk.

;)

[Sherminator]

The closed mindedness & open bigotry in rural England would be more the reason for him to suppress his true self, and let it out in his writings subtly so that no-one without experience of such nature would guess at it's true meaning.

Anyway, I am only speculating at the characters' orientation.

[Peter000]

Only in modern America could we somehow infer that the dedication shown between Frodo and Sam is somehow homosexual in nature.Yeah, because homosexuals obviously didn't even exist until modern America. :rolleyes:

In the movie, they just seem to act a little more close than most male hobbits. Such as Merry and Pippin for example, clearly best of friends and dedicated to one another.

I can buy the batman explanation. But American culture doesn't really have a similar type of class relationship that viewers can interpret as that kind of bond. So I can totally understand the "gaydar" going off at the movies.

[Crash_Corrigan]

In speculating you're imposing your knowledge and life experience and creating a context that may or may not have anything to do with the author's background and life experience or his intention with the characters he created. What's commonly known and understood in 2006 may have little to nothing to do with society in 1917 or 1930 or 1947 and may have nothing to do with Tolkien's life experience. Granted Tolkien was a professor at Oxford, but Oxford in the 1940s wasn't Berkley in 1969. It also wasn't Paris or Madrid or Berlin. Tolkien wasn't avant garde. He wasn't a free thinker. He's a stuffy old school academic who invented imaginary alphabets and languages in his spare time and started writing stories about Middle Earth to create a backstory for his imaginary alphabets and languages.

I'm sure some might want to speculate that the Lone Ranger and Tonto were a couple or that Don Quixote and his faithful sidekick Sancho had a thing. True, Batman and Robin had it going on, but that's totally different. Then again, it may all be just so much projection.

As for me, I don't really think Mark Twain meant to imply that the teenage Huck*****ry Finn had a hot gay getaway when he rafted down the Mississippi alone with a hunky adult black man.

Also keep in mind that Sam's full name is Samwise, and the meaning behind that name is half wise or half wit. Sam is slow, even for a hobbit. He's child-like, naive, innocent. He grows more than any other character in the book and in helping Frodo fulfill the quest accomplishes more than anyone who knew him would have ever imagined. Think child-like devotion, or even brotherly love, not hot man crush.

On the other hand, the Knights of the Roundtable...queerer than the Queer Eye Guys...no doubt about it.

Tolkien isn't Lord Byron. He isn't Oscar Wilde. Then again, maybe Beowulf and the other northern European mythology that served as Tolkien's inspiration also had an abundance of steamy gay subtext clearly there between the lines. Don't get me started on Siegfried and the Dragon. A parable clearly used to recruit young people to the gay lifestyle in medieval Germany. ;)

What's even more twisted is that a lot of that same European mythology that inspired Tolkien also got twisted and warped into Nazi ideology. Hitler loved Wagner's operas and Wagner's operas were full of dragons and heros and magic swords and rings of power. But, that doesn't necessarily make Tolkien a Nazi.

[padmalinowski]

In the movie, they just seem to act a little more close than most male hobbits. Such as Merry and Pippin for example, clearly best of friends and dedicated to one another.(Emphasis mine.)

So instead of blaming the filmmaker, Sherminator is blaming the author? Nice. This is TCF, but the T don't stand for Tolkien. I think the ads are funny but it's not going to be long before TBS plays these otherwise great movies into the ground.

[Langree]

(Emphasis mine.)

So instead of blaming the filmmaker, Sherminator is blaming the author? Nice. This is TCF, but the T don't stand for Tolkien. I think the ads are funny but it's not going to be long before TBS plays these otherwise great movies into the ground.

Yup, Friday, Saturday, Sunday at least every other month for the next year. In case you missed it and want to watch it with comercial breaks every 9 minutes.

[Sherminator]

(Emphasis mine.)

So instead of blaming the filmmaker, Sherminator is blaming the author? Nice. This is TCF, but the T don't stand for Tolkien. I think the ads are funny but it's not going to be long before TBS plays these otherwise great movies into the ground.I am not blaming anyone for the montage that TBS has created, I am not even saying, thinking or implying anything wrong with homosexuality. JRRT may or may not have leanings towards any sexuality, nor may he have implied anything in any of his writings, Peter Jackson may or may not overplayed Samwise Gamgee's dedication to Frodo Baggins.

I simply made a suggestion based on observations on those Scenes in LOTR trilogy taken used to make the commercial. I know that there is not enough information there to make a proper assumption, but my responses to those quick to refute such a suggestion were based purely on the knowledge that I have obtained through my life in rural & metropolitan England, and my friendships with many gay men.

[Side Note]
Tolkien isn't Lord Byron. He isn't Oscar WildeHow many Homosexuals do you know that are "raging homosexuals"? I know none, all of them are regular human beings.

Homosexuality, isn't a flamboyant lifestyle, basically, it is the same as heterosexuality, the only real difference is the gender preference for romantic company.
[/Side Note]

[Crash_Corrigan]

Tolkien's biographers, children, colleagues don't seem to have any inkling that he had any homosexual leanings (at least from what I've read and from the couple documentaries I've seen about the man). Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't.

Maybe he intended the Frodo/Sam relationship to have sexual tension. Maybe he didn't. Maybe he subconsciously created the Frodo/Sam relationship to have homosexual overtones. Maybe he didn't. I haven't seen any serious literary commentary on the subject, but maybe there is some out there. I don't know. All I know if that I've read the novels and seen the movies and read some background on the author and seen a couple documentaries about him. And frankly, I don't think the Frodo/Sam relationship has to be taken as homosexual or having homosexual undercurrents.

You seem to be making speculations about Tolkien based on Peter Jackon's movies and not even on the novels. It's a theory that carries as much weight with me as the one that "pipeweed" is really marijuana. The teenagers sitting behind me in the theater during "Fellowship of the Ring" were sure about it and that they were certain that Frodo and Sam were obviously gay. I don't think it's necessarily so in either case.

For all I know, maybe Sean Astin or Elijah Wood are gay and their performances of Sam and Frodo are adding extra nuance to their characters' relationship. But, I'm not going to speculate that either are gay.

In the movie "Stand by Me", Wil Wheaton's character (Gordy) and River Phoenix's character (Chris) are much closer and devoted friends to each other than they are to their other two friends, Jerry O'Connell's character (Vern) and Corey Feldman's character (Teddy). I've never considered Wil Wheaton's character or the River Phoenix character in "Stand by Me" to be homosexual, and I don't think Rob Reiner or Steven King intended those characters to be interpreted as having sexual feelings for each other or that Rob Reiner or Steven King were using these two characters to subtlely support homosexuality. But, the two lead characters do look out for each other, help each other, encourage each other and share their fears and hopes, cry together and hug each other. River Phoenix's character dies (sort of like Frodo sailing away with the Elves) and Wil Wheaton's character goes on to marry and have kids (sort of like Sam marrying his sweetheart Rosie and raising a family).

Just because it's easy to jump to a particular conclusion, doesn't mean it's true or even valid speculation. But, it might make for an amusing parody -- like the commercial that triggered the start of this thread

Mystery Science Theater stayed on the air 10 seasons and spent a lot time making jokes that distorted the characters and the relationship between characters in the movies they lampooned. And, MST3K made some very funny TV shows.

I don't think George and Lennie were a "couple" in "Of Mice and Men". And, George didn't shoot Lennie because he was jealous that Lennie attacked a woman rather than "jump on" George. But, Ren and Stimpy and Pinky and the Brain...definitely gay. ;)

[Sherminator]

I have no idea how Pipeweed ever came into this debate, I personally associated it with tobacco.

[Crash_Corrigan]

It's another example of speculation.

I also found it amusing that the group of teenagers that sat behind me during Fellowship of the Ring and who talked through most of the movie (and didn't apparently know much about the story) came to the conclusion that pipeweed was marijuana and that Sam and Frodo were gay.

But, hobbits do smoke alot and have huge appetites and tobacco didn't exist in the Old World until it was brought back from the Americas...so maybe Tolkien was a pothead. The hobbits and Gandalf and Aragon used regularly and still managed to save the world. The only harm caused was an occasional attack of the munchies, followed by first breakfast and second breakfast and so on. Tolkien was secretly advocating legalization. That must have been his real agenda. The whole gay relationship thing was just a smokescreen to distract from his promotion of hemp.

Yeah, that's the ticket!

Then again, maybe old J.R.R. only smoked tobacco in his pipe and maybe it never occurred to him that some people in 2006 would think that Sam and Frodo were sexually attracted to each other.