2009 FCC...Tivo?

[msgtgumby]

Okay, so it's all going digital by 2009 I've read. I have two Series 2 Tivos, one monthly and one lifetime. I'm a total dumb*ss on this subject so here goes nothing...I have cable through Cox Communications, which offers a Digital Cable box for a few extra dollars a month. Knowing next to nothing about all this I'm guessing that said Cox Digital Cable box converts the analog to digital right? Am I correct in assuming that simply upgrading to said box would make all well for my Tivo boxes? Cox offers DVR so if all else fails I can still record, but Tivo has much much better software (and is harddrive upgradable), I don't want to lose my Tivo :(

Thanks.

[HDTiVo]

Don't worry, you won't lose your TiVo. :up:

I'd put the issue out of my mind for now and then check back here in a little over 2 years for an update.

See you then.

[SullyND]

The requirement is for OTA broadcasters - it will not (necessarily) affect cable.

See also
Wont Series 2 be obsolete in about 3 years because of HDTV (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=291025)

Stand alone TiVo to be of limited use in 3 years (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=286312)

[dgh]

Knowing next to nothing about all this I'm guessing that said Cox Digital Cable box converts the analog to digital right?

No, it goes the other way - digital to analog. And as mentioned above, if/when the FCC's rules for OTA broadcasters affects cable is unclear.

[PhillyGuy]

Even though you are getting "digital cable," the signal from the cable box to the TV is still analog. That's why it's called a converter box - it converts digital singal from the cable company to analolg so that your TV can receive it. With digital transition, cable boxes offered at that time will still allow you to output analog signal, which is all you need to use Tivo.

[SullyND]

With digital transition, cable boxes offered at that time will still allow you to output analog signal, which is all you need to use Tivo.

And there is no requirement for Cable to eliminate the analog signal, so it is likely that you will continue to not need a converter either.

[ZeoTiVo]

in a nutshell many analog TVs will still be out there, there will be a way to make sure they still work in 2009. And a Sereis 2 TiVo DVR will be able to use the same method to keep functioning. It is not something to worry about.

[PhillyGuy]

And there is no requirement for Cable to eliminate the analog signal, so it is likely that you will continue to not need a converter either.

While this is technically true, I don't see why cable companies would keep the analog feed. It uses more bandwidth than digital cable (which is compressed). With more HDTV channels coming, cable companies are struggling find adequate bandwidth to offer them (and to keep them competitive). By eliminating analog feed, they 1) free up room for more HD channels, 2) potentially make more money from digital cable subscriptions and cable box/DVR rentals.

[tazzftw]

Actually, I heard that the 2009 date REQUIRES that all 0-99 analogue channels be eliminated.

[classicsat]

Even though you are getting "digital cable," the signal from the cable box to the TV is still analog. That's why it's called a converter box - it converts digital singal from the cable company to analolg so that your TV can receive it. With digital transition, cable boxes offered at that time will still allow you to output analog signal, which is all you need to use Tivo.

Not really. The term "convertor" is just sticking from the olden days when the device one used was called a convertor, which converted the frequency used on cable to that which a TV of the time could use. Todays cable box is more like a convertor/decoder.

[maharg18]

Actually, I heard that the 2009 date REQUIRES that all 0-99 analogue channels be eliminated.


Only OTA stations. This does not affect cable at all.

[That Don Guy]

And there is no requirement for Cable to eliminate the analog signal, so it is likely that you will continue to not need a converter either.
Here is the law:
(Title 47, Section 309(j)(14)(A), United States Code)

A television broadcast license that authorizes analog television service may not be renewed to authorize such service for a period that extends beyond February 19. 2009.
(Note that the version at Cornell says "December 31, 2006", but this was extended to the 2009 date in the "Deficit Reduction Act of 2005".)

Technically, cable can broadcast analog signals past this point, but no television stations can broadcast any.
Are cable networks licensed? In theory, stations that aren't broadcast over the air anywhere (e.g. CNN) can supply analog signals to cable companies past this point - but then you have the problem of having to mix digital signals from the broadcast stations with the analog ones from the cable stations; it's probably easier just to supply a single, digital, stream.

-- Don

[SullyND]

In theory, stations that aren't broadcast over the air anywhere (e.g. CNN) can supply analog signals to cable companies past this point - but then you have the problem of having to mix digital signals from the broadcast stations with the analog ones from the cable stations; it's probably easier just to supply a single, digital, stream.

There is nothing preventing cable companies from converting OTA stations to analog at the headend.

The Cable companies are not stupid enough to make cable compatible TVs, VCRs, etc obsolete. Despite the potential revenue from renting STBs, having cable compatible devices is a boon to the cable industry. Being able to have cable at multiple TVs within your house without the need for an STB is something cable has over satellite providers.

Analog on cable will likely not go away for a long time.

[Raj]

The Cable companies are not stupid enough to make cable compatible TVs, VCRs, etc obsolete. Despite the potential revenue from renting STBs, having cable compatible devices is a boon to the cable industry. Being able to have cable at multiple TVs within your house without the need for an STB is something cable has over satellite providers.

Analog on cable will likely not go away for a long time.

It has gone away in New York City.

You require a box for everything except basic cable on Time Warner NYC. By basic cable I mean local channels, public access, C-SPAN and a couple of test channels.

New customers can't get a regular box, only a digital box. They are phasing out the analog boxes by moving more and more channels to digital.

Analog is going away. The "advantage" of multiple TVs without a box is seen by the cable companies as revenue being lost because they charge extra $$ per box. So it would make sense for them to force the box on you.

[petew]

Analog on cable will likely not go away for a long time.

Not necessarily true. It will ultimately depend on the financial impact. Which is greater, the extra revenue from new digital channels or the lost revenue from dropping analog?

IIRC all TV's sold from 2007 will be required to include a digital tuner so the number of Households needing a Digital to Analog STB will be descreasing over time.

Cable co's may also consider loaning STB's at no additional charge, given the benefits of an all digital system and the possibility of selling one-off services such as PPV

[HIHZia]

Most cable companies are phasing out analog-only DELIVERY of cable, which means that they want all housholds to have digital cable boxes. This is so they can provide more channels and more services (and charge for them) However these boxes will output analog signals for a long time to come, most will offer both HD and SD outputs and analog and digital outputs to maximize compatiblity with existing TV's. So don't worry about the transition, you'll be fine.

[Narf54321]

Keep in mind that "Digital Cable" is often misleading by the cable providers. Comcast and WoW are providers in my area, and "Digital Cable" box can simply decode the digital signals for the higher channels. (And the digital changeover in 2009 simply refers to rabbit-ears over-the-air signals. It doesn't even specify HD, just digital transmission.)

All the basic and extended basic channels are still present on the wire. You can easily test this by hooking up that cable-ready TV in the bedroom to an extension without the box.

The last time I saw numbers (for my area, anyway), they were hitting a ceiling of about 40% penetration for digital cable service, which they can't seem to get past. They've tried by slowly moving some of the more esoteric stations (like Noggin) to digital service, but I don't think many subscribers have bitten. Any mad rush by the cableco's to force digital service or new cableboxes on the customers would probably result in large dropoffs in subscribers. Any drastic change in service will make people re-think their commitment to their cableco. "Don't wake the sleeping Giant" as the saying goes. The TimeWarner changes is something of an anomoly, but I've also heard they're worse/stupider than Comcast, so I can't say I'm shocked.

Anyway, how does this affect your Tivo? It means for most markets you'll continue to enjoy analog service for the forseeable future. Those with cable-box hookups already have even less to worry about, since I don't see any reason they'd not continue to work with your TiVo.

[PhillyGuy]

Keep in mind that "Digital Cable" is often misleading by the cable providers. Comcast and WoW are providers in my area, and "Digital Cable" box can simply decode the digital signals for the higher channels. (And the digital changeover in 2009 simply refers to rabbit-ears over-the-air signals. It doesn't even specify HD, just digital transmission.)

All the basic and extended basic channels are still present on the wire. You can easily test this by hooking up that cable-ready TV in the bedroom to an extension without the box.

The last time I saw numbers (for my area, anyway), they were hitting a ceiling of about 40% penetration for digital cable service, which they can't seem to get past. They've tried by slowly moving some of the more esoteric stations (like Noggin) to digital service, but I don't think many subscribers have bitten. Any mad rush by the cableco's to force digital service or new cableboxes on the customers would probably result in large dropoffs in subscribers. Any drastic change in service will make people re-think their commitment to their cableco. "Don't wake the sleeping Giant" as the saying goes. The TimeWarner changes is something of an anomoly, but I've also heard they're worse/stupider than Comcast, so I can't say I'm shocked.

Anyway, how does this affect your Tivo? It means for most markets you'll continue to enjoy analog service for the forseeable future. Those with cable-box hookups already have even less to worry about, since I don't see any reason they'd not continue to work with your TiVo.

It cost money to transimit both digital and analog feeds. There is only limited bandwidth. They can transmit about 4 compressed digital channels for the bandwidth taken by one analog channel. Therefore, it makes sense to eliminate analog feeds as soon as feasible. Also, remember that cable companies are under a lot of competitive pressures from directtv, dish network, and now verizon fios to increase the number of HD channels. People who upgrade their TV's to HD expect their provider to offer every HD channel on the market, but they simply can't do that without making some sacrifices.

[Maxnl]

Comcast in our area gives you as many digital boxes as you need if you are signed up for any digital cable package and I don't know of any limit as I know people that have 10 digital boxes with no additional price per box.

[jsmeeker]

Are cable networks licensed? In theory, stations that aren't broadcast over the air anywhere (e.g. CNN) can supply analog signals to cable companies past this point - but then you have the problem of having to mix digital signals from the broadcast stations with the analog ones from the cable stations; it's probably easier just to supply a single, digital, stream.

-- Don


cable networks aren't licensed like a boradcast license. Also, cable networks rely on local cable companies to DELIVER the signal. Right now, I would suspect a lot of their feeds from CNN and the like ARE digital. The cable companies already do mix digital and analog down the same "pipe". This is how I can watch lots of cable TV networks with my TV without a cable box (and why I can use my TiVo without a cable box). If I upgraded my service, they would simply give me a box and I would get to see all those digital only networks.

However, it's not secret that the cable companies would really like to do away with the analog bit. They can make more money going all digital.

[Troy J B]

It has gone away in New York City.

You require a box for everything except basic cable on Time Warner NYC. By basic cable I mean local channels, public access, C-SPAN and a couple of test channels.

New customers can't get a regular box, only a digital box. They are phasing out the analog boxes by moving more and more channels to digital.

Analog is going away. The "advantage" of multiple TVs without a box is seen by the cable companies as revenue being lost because they charge extra $$ per box. So it would make sense for them to force the box on you.

I expect cable to maintain this status past 2009. Eg basic cable in analog (& digital), with the rest in digital. Removing basic cable from analog would ruffle too many feathers.

[jsmeeker]

I expect cable to maintain this status past 2009. Eg basic cable in analog (& digital), with the rest in digital. Removing basic cable from analog would ruffle too many feathers.


depends on what you mean by "basic". Do you mean the "lifeline" like Raj describes, or something that includes many popular cable chanels?


Actually, the lifeline thing is something I wonder about. AFIK, cable companies are required to provide this. But are they required to provide it in a specific formal (like plain, normal analog NTSC)??

[Troy J B]

depends on what you mean by "basic". Do you mean the "lifeline" like Raj describes, or something that includes many popular cable chanels?


Actually, the lifeline thing is something I wonder about. AFIK, cable companies are required to provide this. But are they required to provide it in a specific formal (like plain, normal analog NTSC)??

The basic as Raj listed: local channels, public access, & c-span. I just do not see cable killing those in the foreseeable future, but the rest of the channels ("expanded basic" here) are fair game.

[PhillyGuy]

The basic as Raj listed: local channels, public access, & c-span. I just do not see cable killing those in the foreseeable future, but the rest of the channels ("expanded basic" here) are fair game.

They don't have to "kill" it, just offer a cable box to every subscriber.

In fact, if you think about, in 2009 analog cable customers would be happy to pay a small fee to get digital cable so that they don't have to purchase a ATSC tuner.

[jsmeeker]

The basic as Raj listed: local channels, public access, & c-span. I just do not see cable killing those in the foreseeable future, but the rest of the channels ("expanded basic" here) are fair game.


No, they won't kill it, as I don't think they can. But the question is, will they (can they legally?) shift it to digital (maybe clear QAM or whatever it's called)?

[quango]

Another factor: the FCC has been trying for the past decade or so to force the cable companies to stop renting/giving cable boxes to their customers; the most recent FCC order sets the cutoff date for mid-2007. The cablecos would be allowed to service existing customers with boxes, but not deploy any new boxes after that date. After that date, you will have to buy or lease a cable box (using either CableCARD or DCAS to access encrypted digital channels) from third parties. See here (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-257519A1.pdf) and here (http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/18/1631224&tid=129&tid=126&tid=219) for details.

[PhillyGuy]

Another factor: the FCC has been trying for the past decade or so to force the cable companies to stop renting/giving cable boxes to their customers; the most recent FCC order sets the cutoff date for mid-2007. The cablecos would be allowed to service existing customers with boxes, but not deploy any new boxes after that date. After that date, you will have to buy or lease a cable box (using either CableCARD or DCAS to access encrypted digital channels) from third parties. See here (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-257519A1.pdf) and here (http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/18/1631224&tid=129&tid=126&tid=219) for details.


Interesting. Does that mean that comsumers would have to rent two boxes from cable companies - one to receive encrypted channels and one for DVR functions?

[quango]

It means the cablecos will have to provide CableCARDs or DCAS software for third-party devices obtained from other sources--i.e. you would buy or lease a cable box, and put the CableCARD in it, or call the cable co to have them send the software to the box once you plug it in.

[PhillyGuy]

It means the cablecos will have to provide CableCARDs or DCAS software for third-party devices obtained from other sources--i.e. you would buy or lease a cable box, and put the CableCARD in it, or call the cable co to have them send the software to the box once you plug it in.

But cable companies already provide CableCARD to those who ask for them. What about those people who don't what to buy a cable box? Or does it mean that cablecos have to provide cable boxes that use a CableCARD? That would mean that an average user would have to rent both a box and a CableCARD. I'm confused.

[goony]

Actually, I heard that the 2009 date REQUIRES that all 0-99 analogue channels be eliminated.I can believe that - from what I understand there are plans to sell the current analog TV broadcast spectrum... they would prefer not to have leaky CATV cableplants 'transmitting' on those frequencies.

[HDTiVo]

Even if there were no more analog outputs from your 'XXX STB' for your old analog equipment to use, which won't be the case, there will be $19.99 devices you can put between your XXX STB and your analog device which will take care of the digital to analog conversion.