Podcaster

[kevinv]

Got the new tivo software last night. How come in Podcaster you can't pause, ff or rewind? That makes no sense to me at all. Why would someone want them for watching tv and not listening to podcasts?

[classicsat]

It is becasue the servers it is streaming from (the podcasts', no TiVos BTW) might not support such control, so the developer took the safe route and disabled control.

[HDTiVo]

It is becasue the servers it is streaming from (the podcasts', no TiVos BTW) might not support such control, so the developer took the safe route and disabled control.
Right, the "technical" reason is that zero functionality guarantees that any Podcast will play, and the user interface is the same for every Podcast (ie. you can't do nothin') The "benefit" of that is no one gets confused when they can only pause some Podcasts.

Paraphrasing in an unfriendly light the response from a TiVo employee, 'TiVo has better things to do right now'

This is also a byproduct of a significant issue in TiVo's strategy. The strategy is to host such things; ie. TiVo wants to be a gateway/gatekeeper. That lets TiVo monetize this stuff in some ways more than if third party products are used. However, it leads to dependence on TiVo to make deals, create software and imagine features all on its own; which is all a formula for limited functionality in the end.

[TiVoPony]

Right, the "technical" reason is that zero functionality guarantees that any Podcast will play, and the user interface is the same for every Podcast (ie. you can't do nothin') The "benefit" of that is no one gets confused when they can only pause some Podcasts.

Paraphrasing in an unfriendly light the response from a TiVo employee, 'TiVo has better things to do right now'

This is also a byproduct of a significant issue in TiVo's strategy. The strategy is to host such things; ie. TiVo wants to be a gateway/gatekeeper. That lets TiVo monetize this stuff in some ways more than if third party products are used. However, it leads to dependence on TiVo to make deals, create software and imagine features all on its own; which is all a formula for limited functionality in the end.

Your view of the world is rather pessimistic. Your condensation of the situation also left out some of the discussion that has been had here before.

Podcaster doesn't offer trickplay for the simple reason that not all podcast servers are configured to offer trickplay functionality. Like it or not, it would prove confusing to customers when they find they can pause podcast A but not podcast B. The only way around this is for TiVo to host and control the podcasts ourselves...which we don't really want to do (kind of contrary to your whole "TiVo is a control freak' argument, isn't it). ;)

In fact, podcasters generally don't want us to host their content, as they monetize their content by tracking how many times it's been accessed. We're not set up to provide those stats to each individual podcaster today...so they wouldn't have an accurate count unless they control the hosting themselves.

As far as controlling the distribution of HME apps - we are just rolling out our initial offering of HME content to customers right now...the rollout isn't even complete yet. But if you have an app that you think is great and should be hosted, contact us. Or even better, put it up on www.apps.tv and build an audience for it (they have nearly 5k people using those apps currently). If you develop something that is a good fit for the TiVo Service we're always willing to chat.

Pony

[markp99]

You should check out jRiver's MediaCenter. The latest version 11.1 (in beta) now supports podcasts which really helps to subscribe, auto-download and manage podcasts on your PC. You can download some or all available podcasts within a given feed, and then choose to keep all or some using a wide range of criteria.

ftp://ftp.jriver.com/pub/downloads/music/MediaCenter111123.exe

MediaCenter has supported streaming audio to TiVo for a long time, and this affords the ability trickplay streaming audio, including podcasts. Very nice!

I serve ALL of my music and podcasts to TiVo and to my iPod using MediaCenter. It is quite nice to have my media library in one place and have access to my stuff on my iPod .and. TiVo without having to do anything extra.

2 cents :)

[HDTiVo]

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3541577&&#post3541577
We're streaming the podcasts from their source, and not all of the servers we're talking to support fast forward and rewind. The decision was made that it would be very confusing to customers to be able to fast forward and rewind some podcasts but not others. So it's not supported for now.

Pausing is another issue...as we're not hosting the podcasts locally, the connection to the server hosting the podcast will time out if left paused for a minute (some happen even quicker apparently). We thought of providing a pause feature with a countdown timer...but again, that would be a bit odd for our customers to understand.

The real solution is, as you may have guessed, to host the podcasts ourselves. Then we don't have to worry about dropped network connections or server settings. Authors of podcasts are a bit resistant to this, as they rely on playback stats to measure their ratings. That's something we could offer down the road, but don't today.

There are always tradeoffs to consider, regardless of the solution. Appreciate the feedback!

Pony



http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3573986&&#post3573986
This isn't a religious war, everyone here would like to be able to trickplay podcasts. There isn't anyone here to convince that it would be good to have. Is it the most important thing our engineers could be doing at this exact moment? Absolutely not. Guaranteed.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3577164&&#post3577164
Its really great to have a detailed explanation of how it works and understand where the problem(s) lie.

Probably alot of this has been considered already and there is only so much time and money. But TiVo's reputation for high quality and functionality is very important; the Brand is where the money is. So let's look forward to advances as this emerging capability of the product develops.


Your view of the world is rather pessimistic. Your condensation of the situation also left out some of the discussion that has been had here before.


It is hard to figure out what policy is. We have to model TiVo's intentions from observable behavior while knowing there is much more going on inside the "black box" of the corporation. Maybe it will get easier with TiVo communicating more through the forum and the Blog.

The real world result of the current situation is a Podcaster can't provide the end-user experience it wants though a TiVo unless it goes through TiVo Co. - in which case it gives up some things as you acknowledge.

Then there is the present Galleon story, which relates to HME and 3rd party developer relations; people can look for that in other threads.

It sounds like you are saying TiVo considers a robust independent 3rd party development community a good (important?) thing; but how much is TiVo willing/able to put into making it happen, and what is the balance between the desire to monetize (for TiVo) the services and leaving them entirely to the 3rd parties?

Good topic for the Blog next week.

[cheezus]

My solution: let iTunes handles the podcast grabbing business, and just use the podcast playlist with TiVo destkop

[HDTiVo]

My solution: let iTunes handles the podcast grabbing business, and just use the podcast playlist with TiVo destkop
People keep suggesting solutions that involve an active PC, and that obviously will give the desired result functionally. However the ability to have the TiVo be a full featured Podcast client on its own is something very desirable.

[TiVoPony]

[url]
It sounds like you are saying TiVo considers a robust independent 3rd party development community a good (important?) thing; but how much is TiVo willing/able to put into making it happen, and what is the balance between the desire to monetize (for TiVo) the services and leaving them entirely to the 3rd parties?


That's a slightly different topic, isn't it? The OP wanted to know why they can't pause a podcast via Podcaster. You contended that it's due to "a significant issue in TiVo's strategy". Sounds rather dramatic, but it's a misleading statement. Pause isn't supported in the PodCaster app because the servers from which the streams come from often don't support pausing. It's pretty simple really.

Regarding Galleon...TiVo hosting Galleon on our servers hasn't happened because technically it makes zero sense. Galleon is only useful if it's hosted on the personal computer in your house. That's how it works, it's how it was designed.

But to take the Galleon discussion one step further...we do like Leon, and have been continually impressed by his prolific ability to code. I will say though that Galleon is not a solution for every customer. There have been folks here who have noted that it can be a bit daunting to get running & configure. Could it improve? Sure. Is it a substitute for TiVo Desktop or our new Online Services? Only for some. Is it any less an impressive achievement? Absolutely not.

You appear to criticize TiVo for our work with partners to offer these services rather than independent third parties. Understand that whether we like an application or not, many third party apps today are web-scrapers. They don't have license to repurpose the content that they do, Galleon included. Our company is not in a position to legitimize this practice...all of the content contained in our online services is acquired with the full cooperation of those that own the content. If we're providing it on our service, from our servers, it can't be any other way. Partnering with the companies that own the content isn't a preference, in this case it's a necessity of doing business.

Leon in his blog had two primary issues - how can he get better insight into our HME roadmap, and how can he monetize what he's developed. To the first - we're just rolling out our first apps now. There's a world of difference between running an app for a few dozen people to play with at a time (or for a single box to run on a local pc) and serving tens and hundreds of thousands of people simultaneously. Trust that there's been continued investment and effort at TiVo to get us to this point. That said, the market decides. We're watching the rollout, and the weekly use of these apps very closely to see where the opportunities lie. The direction we take with this technology will in many ways depend on whether the proverbial dog likes the dog food. The same holds true for every single business in America. ;)

To the second issue (how can a third party monetize their work) - talk to us. Come up with something cool and show us. If it's something that is server-based there may be an opportunity to put it up on the TiVo Service. If it's a standalone local app (like Galleon or AudioFaucet)...let us know what you're thinking. Or shoot, if you can't write an app, find a favorite app that someone else has written and lobby for that. It's better than lamenting that the third parties are being ignored...show us what the third parties can deliver.

But there are two things you shouldn't expect. It would be unreasonable to expect TiVo to host unvetted apps, especially those created with content acquired in less than official means. You also shouldn't expect that having written an app means that TiVo will distribute it. The bar to get something published is much, much higher than the bar to write an app. Trust that I know this...none of the eight or so apps I've written myself have made the cut yet. ;)

But back to the OP's original question...we'd all like to pause Podcaster, but today it's not technically possible to offer that feature. There are some alternatives, but they all require a personal computer that is on and running. You'd download the podcasts to your local PC (I use iTunes for this) and then publish them to your TiVo DVR using TiVo Desktop or a third party app such as Galleon or AudioFaucet. In any of those cases you'll be able to pause the podcast, as it's being hosted locally on your personal computer.

Cheers,
Pony

[peteypete]

Ahh, well put Pony. I understand the fine line tivo has to walk and I also agree that Galleon is clunky at times... but let's not forget that tivo is well... a TV-scraper......

Har.

A pony is not that high a horse to be on!

(all in jest!!)

[dylanemcgregor]

Pony (or others),

I'm a bit confused so maybe someone can help straighten me out. Why are the podcasts streamed at all? If podcasts were downloaded to the box then it seems there would be no problem at all doing all the trickplay a person could want, they could even choose to listen to a podcast for a couple of minutes in the morning, and then come back and finish it up that night. So is there a technical reason, or a licensing reason, or some other reason it is more desirable to stream? It seems that if you can download it into iTunes and then onto an iPod, to keep as long as you want, that the content owners shouldn't have any problem with it being downloaded to a TiVo. Seems quite a bit more secure then downloading to a PC? So is there a technical reason? Most everything else TiVo does is downloaded rather than streamed...

What am I missing?

[MasherSCF]

My solution: let iTunes handles the podcast grabbing business, and just use the podcast playlist with TiVo destkop

This is the best solution, if you have a PC that can act as a media server. This is something that your gonna need anyway to get the most out of your TiVo without hacking it.

The new TiVo applications arn't really for hard-core Tivo tech hobbiests. They're for mainstream users who need a more convenient solutions. The ease of use these Tivo applications is pretty much cancelled out by their lack of versitiliy. This, and that Tivo seems to forget my favorites and saved information every few weeks.

My wife loves the games and the yahoo weather is kinda cool when it doesn't forget my zip code. If the Yahoo photos somehow interfaced with Flickr (a yahoo product), it would be better.

The Live365 or whatever that numbers is really nice. However, my TV doesn't have the best sound quality.

The new sh** is nice, but I think hardcore TiVoists looking for new super-features are gonna be dissappointed.

If you're already networked and you're well versed in the use of HME then you're not going to get a lot out of these new features. I suspect that TiVo's "strategy" is to encourage slow users to start networking their TiVO series 2. Many more mondane TiVoist (and, sadly, the staff at bestbuy) don't even realise that TiVo can be a networked device. For me, the whole TiVo is only worth it AFTER the network is added.

BTW, Getting Rocketboom straight to the TiVo is wicked nice. I wish ALL videocasts could be obtained this way. yet another great reason to have your TiVo on the net.

[dtreese]

I think you're right. More than a couple of my med school classmates don't even realize their TiVo's can be networked (they got theirs after school started & don't have THAT much time) or understand the benefits of TiVo desktop. Getting them to hook it up to a home network when they barely understand how to program TiVo could be interesting. Besides those with too little free time to understand, you have older generation technophobes who have to get their kids to help them out. Believe me - I've encountered both groups & they've been mystified when exposed to TiVo's networking capabilities. Anything to entice them to put it on the network is great.

Here's what I'm pondering: Is this new functionality being promoted in the retail box? Some of these people would never EVER find the info online. I wouldn't know since it's been almost a year since I bought my last TiVO.

[coletown]

Right on, dylanemcgregor!

[ZeoTiVo]

This is a vote to have the podcasts copy onto the TiVo as a better solution than streaming BUT.....

- you would still have to go to each one and select it for copy - it would not be an automatic feature as it gets back to either TiVo, inc. hosts and supports the keeping track of which podcast is to be auto downloaded to which TiVo or else the individual Podcast servers would have to support TiVos or the TiVo would need the software on each TiVo to do the subscribe to a podcast part.
all of this is a fair amount of work
and TiVo does indeed have more important things to work on from my perspective. Series 3 and video downloads are two big ones for me.

On the HME front - exposing the DVR functionality is more important to me and also Leon then other things.

so podcasts have a perfectly acceptable alternative of using the PC to do the subscribing and downloading and then it is easy to stream to the TiVo.

[TiVoPony]

Pony (or others),

I'm a bit confused so maybe someone can help straighten me out. Why are the podcasts streamed at all?

<snip>

Most everything else TiVo does is downloaded rather than streamed...

What am I missing?

It's the "most everything else is downloaded rather than streamed" thought that is most revealing regarding your expectations. In truth, other than guide data and recordings, everything else is streamed, not saved. Music, Photos, HME apps...it's all streamed content.

Saving other forms of content on the box is not supported today, and isn't a simple design to pull off correctly. There are many issues...think about how the box should act when it needs to delete your episode of Seinfeld to grab one more podcast. Or how to manage the recording space if you should decide to copy your mp3 library over to the box (I have over 40GB of music on my PC). Can it delete some of your music or podcasts to record the Olympics? What about familiy photos? Which goes first? And obviously the partitions between types of content would have to be dynamic...nobody would want a one time "How much space do you plan to use for music?" setup question ala ReplayTV.

If it sounds like we've thought about this before, that's because we have. To date we've left the recording space on the box as the recording space - you've purchased a DVR with capacity up to 40 hours, you should get up to 40 hours of the best TV available. Everything else streams. That could change down the road, but it's not an insignificant 'tweak'...implementing that level of functionality in a thoughtful way is surprisingly complex. Still...if HME had just a little space to act as a larger local buffer for streams...but it doesn't. Maybe down the road.


Pony

[dylanemcgregor]

Pony,

Thanks for the response, as usual it sounds like you have given this more thought than I have. When saying that most things are streamed rather than copied I was thinking of MRV and ComeBack (both of which some people have requested be streamed for reasons unclear to me.)

I'm someone who has quite a bit more hard drive space on my TiVo then I do on my PC, so I tend to not think about the end of space issues much, but...that being said, the way I'd like for this all to work is have everything integrated into the To Do list, SP manager, and existing recording options with KUID, and KAM settings. I'd like to be able to set Rocketboom to be KAM 3 for instance, so that I don't end up with 30 episodes. Podcasts should work in the same way IMO.

I know there are other issues, and I realize that it isn't the highest priority for TIVo right now, but it would be great to get to the point where the options are the same for all content regardless of the way it got to the box.

-Dylan

[HDTiVo]

I know there are other issues, and I realize that it isn't the highest priority for TIVo right now, but it would be great to get to the point where the options are the same for all content regardless of the way it got to the box.

-Dylan
My question for TiVo is why put a functionless Pod Client out at all? Hasn't it hurt TiVo's repution far more than the ability to receive Podcasts has (or will) advanced sales?

[HDTiVo]

And while we are on the subject of 'how come it does THIS?' ....

How come when I press LiveTV it goes back to LiveTV when in HMO Music pressing LiveTV takes me back to the 'song playing' screen? Or more generally, why isn't the LiveTV button under HME analogous to its operation under HMO?

[HDTiVo]

That's a slightly different topic, isn't it? The OP wanted to know why they can't pause a podcast via Podcaster. You contended that it's due to "a significant issue in TiVo's strategy". Sounds rather dramatic, but it's a misleading statement. Pause isn't supported in the PodCaster app because the servers from which the streams come from often don't support pausing. It's pretty simple really.

Regarding Galleon...TiVo hosting Galleon on our servers hasn't happened because technically it makes zero sense. Galleon is only useful if it's hosted on the personal computer in your house. That's how it works, it's how it was designed.

But to take the Galleon discussion one step further...we do like Leon, and have been continually impressed by his prolific ability to code. I will say though that Galleon is not a solution for every customer. There have been folks here who have noted that it can be a bit daunting to get running & configure. Could it improve? Sure. Is it a substitute for TiVo Desktop or our new Online Services? Only for some. Is it any less an impressive achievement? Absolutely not.

You appear to criticize TiVo for our work with partners to offer these services rather than independent third parties. Understand that whether we like an application or not, many third party apps today are web-scrapers. They don't have license to repurpose the content that they do, Galleon included. Our company is not in a position to legitimize this practice...all of the content contained in our online services is acquired with the full cooperation of those that own the content. If we're providing it on our service, from our servers, it can't be any other way. Partnering with the companies that own the content isn't a preference, in this case it's a necessity of doing business.

Leon in his blog had two primary issues - how can he get better insight into our HME roadmap, and how can he monetize what he's developed. To the first - we're just rolling out our first apps now. There's a world of difference between running an app for a few dozen people to play with at a time (or for a single box to run on a local pc) and serving tens and hundreds of thousands of people simultaneously. Trust that there's been continued investment and effort at TiVo to get us to this point. That said, the market decides. We're watching the rollout, and the weekly use of these apps very closely to see where the opportunities lie. The direction we take with this technology will in many ways depend on whether the proverbial dog likes the dog food. The same holds true for every single business in America. ;)

To the second issue (how can a third party monetize their work) - talk to us. Come up with something cool and show us. If it's something that is server-based there may be an opportunity to put it up on the TiVo Service. If it's a standalone local app (like Galleon or AudioFaucet)...let us know what you're thinking. Or shoot, if you can't write an app, find a favorite app that someone else has written and lobby for that. It's better than lamenting that the third parties are being ignored...show us what the third parties can deliver.

But there are two things you shouldn't expect. It would be unreasonable to expect TiVo to host unvetted apps, especially those created with content acquired in less than official means. You also shouldn't expect that having written an app means that TiVo will distribute it. The bar to get something published is much, much higher than the bar to write an app. Trust that I know this...none of the eight or so apps I've written myself have made the cut yet. ;)

But back to the OP's original question...we'd all like to pause Podcaster, but today it's not technically possible to offer that feature. There are some alternatives, but they all require a personal computer that is on and running. You'd download the podcasts to your local PC (I use iTunes for this) and then publish them to your TiVo DVR using TiVo Desktop or a third party app such as Galleon or AudioFaucet. In any of those cases you'll be able to pause the podcast, as it's being hosted locally on your personal computer.

Cheers,
Pony

Pony,

Thanks for all your responses. I believe they are reflective of the state of thinking within TiVo, and they reconfirm my views and opinions; I believe we are basically on the same page, regardless of whether you realize or like it.

You are informative and your time is appreciated.

[HDTiVo]

To the second issue (how can a third party monetize their work) - talk to us. Come up with something cool and show us. If it's something that is server-based there may be an opportunity to put it up on the TiVo Service. If it's a standalone local app (like Galleon or AudioFaucet)...let us know what you're thinking. Or shoot, if you can't write an app, find a favorite app that someone else has written and lobby for that. It's better than lamenting that the third parties are being ignored...show us what the third parties can deliver.

Dear TiVo,

Would you be interested in this?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=287721

[gonzotek]

My question for TiVo is why put a functionless Pod Client out at all? Hasn't it hurt TiVo's repution far more than the ability to receive Podcasts has (or will) advanced sales?It's far from functionless, and I've seen many reports on the web that it's being well received. For those that like the idea of podcasts on TiVo, but find the implementation lacking, there are alternatives. It's not like they locked the door behind them when they implemented the TiVo podcaster. Remember, for many people FM radio is just fine for audio entertainment, and that has no pause/rw/ff. At least Podcaster, as it is now, has a leg up on FM in that it has graphics, text, and can restart or replay a program at a later date.

[HDTiVo]

It's far from functionless
You are right. I stand corrected. There is a STOP function.

I haven't seen any text or graphics. Can you point me to one or two that will give me a good idea of the potential?

[kevinv]

I've kind of fallen out of the habit of using Tivo Desktop. I've been on Tiger on my Mac since it came out and Tivo Desktop that supports Tiger just came out.

I actually like Podcaster, I can browse podcast descriptions from across the room and using the remote is a bit better than a mouse.

Basically all I really want is pause the current show and the ability to jump backwards in case I missed something. Both of these can be done no matter what the server side does, simply buffer the stream as it plays. When pause is hit continue streaming but buffer to hard drive (use the same drive space the 30 minute video buffer uses, I'm not watching tv when I'm listening so that buffer isn't needed). FF is only needed for the amount of the show currently buffered (just like watching live tv).

I don't want to save episodes (i'll use iTunes for that) but I still don't see how this is hard to do everything local.

[ZeoTiVo]

Basically all I really want is pause the current show and the ability to jump backwards in case I missed something. Both of these can be done no matter what the server side does, simply buffer the stream as it plays. When pause is hit continue streaming but buffer to hard drive (use the same drive space the 30 minute video buffer uses, I'm not watching tv when I'm listening so that buffer isn't needed). FF is only needed for the amount of the show currently buffered (just like watching live tv).


doubt it will be as large as the 30 minute video buffer but TiVoPony hinted at getting a better buffer for HME apps in general. Since he is a project manager I bet he is talking from the roadmap ;) So good point kevinv and hopefully we see it before too long :up:

Still...if HME had just a little space to act as a larger local buffer for streams...but it doesn't. Maybe down the road.


Pony

[HDTiVo]

(use the same drive space the 30 minute video buffer uses, I'm not watching tv when I'm listening so that buffer isn't needed).
I don't see this as a viable option. Users have the right to expect that if they jump back to LiveTV their full 30 min. live buffer is intact, and not 29 or 27min. This really would be a major and confusing change to the user interface/experience.

Now if you took a little smidge of that Yellow Star space...but...


If you wanted to disk buffer up to 30 min of up to 320kbps Podcast we're looking at a max of (320kbps)/(8b/B)*(60sec/min)*(30min) = ~70MB

[classicsat]

That is supposing they are 320KbpS. Most I've come across are 64Kbps or less.

[HDTiVo]

That is supposing they are 320KbpS. Most I've come across are 64Kbps or less.
Yes, but the best choice to guarantee a consistent TiVo quality experience is a fixed size disk buffer that accounts for 30 minutes at "Best" quality.

70MB is about 6 min of recording time. My 60hr reports 62:42 min at Basic; I had my 40 hour all of ten minutes before a big HD went in, but I believe they report more than 40:06 at Basic.

If it sounds like we've thought about this before, that's because we have. To date we've left the recording space on the box as the recording space - you've purchased a DVR with capacity up to 40 hours, you should get up to 40 hours of the best TV available.

[MighTiVo]

It's the "most everything else is downloaded rather than streamed" thought that is most revealing regarding your expectations. In truth, other than guide data and recordings, everything else is streamed, not saved. Music, Photos, HME apps...it's all streamed content.
Pony

IPTV content like RocketBoom isn't streamed.

I am fine with listening to live podcasts streamed but recording podcasts with a season pass seems the most logical and easiest to understand way to interface podcasts into TiVo.
The plan should be to build a web content guide like the TV guide, integrate it into now playing and let space available work just as it does today. First in, first out, unless it is KUID, save at most, etc.

Recording IP based content be it video or audio should be more seemless and not act like a HME app. Leave HME like functionality for streaming live broadcasts, streaming podcasts, streaming radio, etc.

[gonzotek]

I am fine with listening to live podcasts streamed but recording podcasts with a season pass seems the most logical and easiest to understand way to interface podcasts into TiVo.
The plan should be to build a web content guide like the TV guide, integrate it into now playing and let space available work just as it does today. First in, first out, unless it is KUID, save at most, etc.

Recording IP based content be it video or audio should be more seemless and not act like a HME app. Leave HME like functionality for streaming live broadcasts, streaming podcasts, streaming radio, etc.I have to agree with this. A podcast (video or audio) should be treated exactly like a video recording, with the same options, and caveats, that season passes and normal video recordings have today. Make it as close as possible to the same (great) experience of requesting and recording tv today and you've got the next 'killer app' for IPTV/podcasting.