Why can't TV logos be moved for HD channels?

[newsposter]

Hope I can explain this right.

On my OTA HD I've noticed on the bottom left of the screen (like where the WB or American idol logos go), that those graphics are in the 4:3 position (left most there as if you put bars for the 4:3 pic). However when the TV 'bugs' are shown on the bottom right, they are literally on the bottom right of the screen where they 'should' be.

oh yea, and the TV ratings box is also in the 4:3 position on the top left, not the full 16:9 top left.

So is there a reason they can put the TV bugs correctly on the bottom of the full 16:9 screen but not other graphics like the ratings box on the left side and station logos or annoying ads (bottom)?

[ebonovic]

My "guess"...

Is that the bugs are overlays added by the station during broadcast.


The TV Ratings, and the American Idol logo are added during mastering of the program, which is used for both the HD and SD broadcasts.

Even during the football and baseball season...

The "bar" was extended out to fill the entier 16:9, but the content was inside the 4:3

[osultan]

I had read something that with the SD-->HD transition, companies were now filing/taping in HD and down-rezzing and cropping for the SD feed. This is cheaper than creating and maintaining both an SD and HD version. The same is true for sporting events covered in HD. I remember watching a special, on Discovery no less, that showed how they did this and they even showed how the cameraman had put tape in his viewfinder to show where the SD image is cropped.

In light of that, the bugs, titles, etc would all need to fit into the SD real estate.

[newsposter]

Interesting indeed.

I'm currently watching pbs hd and the pbs hd and whyy are in the right places on the top left and bottom left so they got it right:)

one other on topic question: when i'm watching 24 in HD, the fox 29 bug is slightly off the screen bottom right but when i'm editing the show on my dvd burner (and thus have the video editing window up), you can see 100% of the fox logo. does that mean there is an alignment problem with my tv?

[f0gax]

As recently as the 2004 NFL season, our local Fox affiliate (WTVT, 13) did not have any HD logos (or the equipment to overlay them at least). So when they had to do their idents, they switched over to SD, dropped in their big ugly SD logo for the alotted time, and then (most of the time) switched back to HD. It was very annoying.

Now they have a nice little ident graphic the they put in the middle.

[DavidS]

Related whine. My wife was watching the Harry Potter movie on OTA ABC HD last Sunday. There was a threat of a little snow, so our Dayton affiliate decided it needed to run weather alerts constantly on the bottom of the screen. However, they apparently only have equipment for an SD 4:3 bottom box. So they shrank the picture to add sidebars, and then either stretched or squeezed it vertically (I can't remember) to fit in the space above the alert box. AND, I think, they turned off the HD. (In retrospect, it's possible they simply turned of the HD and squeezed the SD version to fit over the alert box.) Either way, it was an awful picture.

Bottom line - If you're serious about broadcasting HD, and you really have to do the stupid alert boxes, then get the equipment to do them in 16:9 HD. Geesh.

[Mr. Bill]

If it's live, and they are using the same cameras for HD and for SD that's downrezzed (quite common), then they have to center-cut frame the entire scene for 4:3, so that's where the logos go and that's the only area the banners will cover.

Otherwise, the SD-viewing folks will see cut-off banners or no logos at all.

Watch a hockey game or football game framed like this, for example, and you can see them follow the action as if it's framed for 4:3.

[newsposter]

As recently as the 2004 NFL season, our local Fox affiliate (WTVT, 13) did not have any HD logos (or the equipment to overlay them at least). So when they had to do their idents, they switched over to SD, dropped in their big ugly SD logo for the alotted time, and then (most of the time) switched back to HD. It was very annoying.

Now they have a nice little ident graphic the they put in the middle.

weird, just watched bones in HD....when the local fox thing came up halfway thru the show, it went SD then back again. Never did it during Idol. strange

[SpankyInChicago]

Interesting indeed.

I'm currently watching pbs hd and the pbs hd and whyy are in the right places on the top left and bottom left so they got it right:)

one other on topic question: when i'm watching 24 in HD, the fox 29 bug is slightly off the screen bottom right but when i'm editing the show on my dvd burner (and thus have the video editing window up), you can see 100% of the fox logo. does that mean there is an alignment problem with my tv?

You have a RP CRT if I recall correctly. If logos are getting cut off, it is because your set has too much overscan. You'll need to correct that yourself by going into the service menus or it can be completed as part of an ISF calibration which you should strongly consider getting.

[videojanitor]

weird, just watched bones in HD....when the local fox thing came up halfway thru the show, it went SD then back again. Never did it during Idol. strange

Can you clarify what you mean by "local fox thing?" Was it some sort of "station ID" graphic?

The FOX HD system allows affiliates to insert two different graphics: One is the "bug" in the extreme lower-right corner -- the on/off triggers for that are controlled by the network. The other is a "legal ID" -- a graphic that contains the station's call letters and city of license (ie: KTTV-DT Los Angeles, etc.). That can be triggered at will by each station -- it's designed to be used for programs that go past the top of the hour, like sporting events, so the station can comply with FCC regs regarding station identification. It's only required at the top of the hour though, so if your station is inserting it in the middle of "Bones," (at the bottom of the hour) they either don't know the rules, or they are using it as promotional tool.

Now, if they are dropping to SD in order to do it, that's even worse. That means they haven't bothered to send their graphic to FOX to be loaded into the splicer, and instead are using outboard SD gear to put it on the air.

FYI ... during normal "entertainment" programming, you should never see this legal ID being used -- the network provides an opportunity for a local station promo near the top of the hour, and that promo should contain a legal ID somewhere on the screen.

[Mr. Bill]

We rarely watch Fox, either OTA HD or D* HD CH 88.

But, we do watch 'House' on ch 88 every Tuesday. It always has Fox 5 (the NYC local) in the the lower right corner of the HD pic.

[newsposter]

It was the legal ID thing at the bottom center of the screen and i forget the point but it definitely wasn't at the start or end of the program.

Weird because during american idol either they dont do the ID thing or they just keep it in HD. I dont know which. Will try to look for it next week And same with 24.

I guess I do have overscan. Oh well. Someday I'll pay to get the glare screen off etc some day.

[osultan]

You have a RP CRT if I recall correctly. If logos are getting cut off, it is because your set has too much overscan. You'll need to correct that yourself by going into the service menus or it can be completed as part of an ISF calibration which you should strongly consider getting.

You might also want to check to see if you have one of those zoom/fill the screen modes turned on.

[newsposter]

thx, nope standard 16/9....actually can someone explain why you'd need zoom 2? on my tv, i can understand why someone would need zoom 1 (if something was boxed on all 4 sides)...but zoom 2 lets you see their nose hairs it's so big..ick!

[TyroneShoes]

...Bottom line - If you're serious about broadcasting HD, and you really have to do the stupid alert boxes, then get the equipment to do them in 16:9 HD. Geesh. That equipment is barely even available at the station level, and so costly right now that virtually no station can afford it until advertisers get serious about buying time on their HD stations, which has yet to happen, and isn't even on the far horizon. Until then, they have laid out 10 mil each with no ROI, so they are being understandably frugal. How would you feel if your boss came to you and said "If you want to keep your job after 2016 I'm going to increase your workload by 75% for the next 10 years but you will likely not get a raise this year or any of the other nine." That is fairly equivalent to what the FCC has said to every TV broadcaster in the nation, and is not that different from a mob strongarm protection racket. They seem to be coping with that fairly well, IMHO.

Even stations thinking about HD local news will probably just up-rez their SD graphics boxes until their SD graphics boxes quit being repairable. So, bottom line, NO one is really serious about HD right now, and probably won't be until the analog shutoff. If I had a choice between HD as it exists or no HD until broadcasters get "serious" about it, it wouldn't take a brainstorm to figure out how I should vote.

Back on topic, the trend is for HD cams and HD servers to be able to produce a simultaneous SD stream of the same content. If the bugs are added before the recording is made or upstream somewhere in the process, there can only be one place to put them if you want them visible in both the safe area of 4:3 and the safe area of 16:9. If they are added downstream to the 16:9, they have an option to place them in the side panels, but still might choose not to. It's really just that simple.