My 10-250 and the DirecTV Protection Plan

[Chew]

I have one of the earliest HD TiVos so it's well outside the one year warranty. I've had harddrive issues for a while now and it's only getting worse. I've tried replacing the harddrive, but didn't know well enough to get a 5400rpm drive instead of the two different brands of 7200rpm I've tried. They're much much too loud to me compared to the drive my unit came with. It's far too annoying just to "put up with it".

I'm done wasting money on stuff that doesn't work and feel my only option is the Protection Plan. I tried searching for my specific question, but feel it's too generic to find an answer among all the results I got.

If I sign up today, I can call about my random reboot issues (and all the other issues it has) in 30+ days to get a new unit with only a few questions asked?

I can survive another month with these kinds of problems, but want to solve this before too long. Also, I know a one year committment is required for the Plan.

Thanks. :)

[wjbjr]

Let your conscience be your guide as to whether you want to commit a fraud.

[Chew]

DirecTV sells HR10-250s that have been seriously faulty from day one and I'm the one committing fraud?

[SpankyInChicago]

I smell a Republican Congressman posting in this thread.

Seriously, do people not give any consideration to moral issues these days? Of course you could do exactly what you propose, and of course you would very likely "get away" with it. But is doing something immoral worth $80 to you? Isn't that what a 250GB hard drive costs?

[SpankyInChicago]

DirecTV sells HR10-250s that have been seriously faulty from day one and I'm the one committing fraud?

They sold you a unit for some $X and warranted to you that it would not fail for one year. Knowing those terms you bought the piece of equipment and apparently for over one year it performed as advertised. It has failed now outside the warranty period and you feel that somehow DirecTV has defrauded you? How? The item performed as promised for the entire waranty period.

Besides, even if DirecTV did something wrong, it does not make it okay for you to do something wrong. Two wrongs, etc.

[Chew]

As stated in my first post with the harddrives I have purchased, I've already spent $200+ trying to fix it myself.

Given the 30 day waiting period of the Protection Plan, I seriously never considering that route "fraud".

If I call today, anybody have any information on what they'll charge for a fix or replacement?

[TheBigDogs]

Let your conscience be your guide as to whether you want to commit a fraud.

I don't see any fraud here at all. If that was a concern, DTV has a number of options including a requirement for a service visit to verify that all the equipment was in working order. Candidly, who can tell if the unit has been bad for months or shot craps while you were on the phone placing the order?

The service contracts sold by CC and BB are pure profit (for CC last year, service contracts were the only source of profit and actually hid some major operating losses). All things considered, at $96 a year, D* is probably making a very good margin.

[txfeinbergs]

Chew, have you done a Clear and Delete on the unit? If you try it, you may find all of your headaches are solved. As far as the Protection Plan goes, they replaced one of my HR10-250's with a refurbished unit (but I have been on the protection plan for many years now).

[Chew]

The Clear and Delete resulted in the original drive freezing up and it would no longer boot. I had to wipe the drive clean and used InstantCake to reinstall.

[rb5505]

chew,
just go ahead and get the protection plan and get this resolved. the way i see it you tried to get it going, spent considerable money and it wouldn't go. it's not like you didn't try. sheesh, sometimes i'm just sorry people even ask questions in these forums! one preachy reply after another. i didn't think you'd asked for counseling here, just advice on whether the protection plan might help you out.

[yurkope]

chew,

I got the first unit from VE. My hard drive started to act up about a year and a half after purchase. Called D* about it, they told me to sign up for the protection plan and as soon as I agreed over the phone they sent me out a new unit.

[Chew]

Thank you for the responses.

[Ereth]

As stated in my first post with the harddrives I have purchased, I've already spent $200+ trying to fix it myself.
And how is it that it's DirecTVs problem that YOU bought the wrong drive and now find the noise to be excessive? Take those drives back and get the 5400 RPM drive.

[newsposter]

I always wondered how playing by the legal rules can be construed as fraud? DTV is a huge company with tons of lawyers at their disposal and I'm betting they research stuff before they put contracts in writing. If you wanna talk morals/ethics, fine, but fraud is a clearly defined legal term. (of course i've never seen the protection plan and if it has a clause that specifically mentions this, then of course it would be fraud :))

[wjbjr]

I always wondered how playing by the legal rules can be construed as fraud? DTV is a huge company with tons of lawyers at their disposal and I'm betting they research stuff before they put contracts in writing. If you wanna talk morals/ethics, fine, but fraud is a clearly defined legal term. (of course i've never seen the protection plan and if it has a clause that specifically mentions this, then of course it would be fraud :))

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

fraud
Pronunciation: 'frod
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English fraude, from Middle French, from Latin fraud-, fraus

DECEIT, TRICKERY; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : TRICK


And, of course, morals and ethics also enter the picture.

[Chew]

I called DirecTV tech support and went through all the steps requested of me. It wasn't a surprise to find out I needed a new receiver. Without even asking for it, I was told I could sign up for the Protection Plan and get a new receiver without additional cost beyond the monthly charge.

[jschmidt]

Fraud is an intentional misleading statement, which is relied upon by another. What you are doing IS fraud unless you tell them when you sign up for the plan that you are signing up for the purpose of getting a replacement for an already defective receiver. Then you would be protected. If you tell the representative this, they may not care or take it seriously and then it becomes their problem. But, you will also have to check their agreement language to see if it exempts them from covering pre-existing defects. If it does and you make a claim, it is still fraud. Fraud is a crime and you can be prosecuted for it. Is it really worth the risk for such a (relatively) small amount of money?

[jschmidt]

BTW, regardless of how you want to justify it, it is clear that you know you are being dishonest. The next time you plan to commit fraud or be dishonest, it is probably best NOT to post your plans on a public forum. IP addresses are probably recorded and these postings can likely be traced back to you. You have just provided DirecTV with evidence against you if you make a claim... dumbass.

[newsposter]

couldn't resist looking it up

#8 under not covered does say preexisting conditions so technically it's fraud.

http://www.directv.com/learn/pdf/service_plan_112204.pdf

of course if you have a 'new' problem pop up after you subscribe, i dont know how they would segregate the old problem from the new and of course that's not fraud since it's a new problem. :)

[Chew]

Let me get this straight: I called DirecTV last night and laid out ALL of the problems I've had with this unit (random reboots, missed recordings, slow remote response--the whole laundry list), including the fact that it's been happening for several months now. We go through the steps of rebooting, checking signal strength, etc. I completely told the truth without any deception of my receiver's faults, full disclosure. He offers me the Protection Plan and tells me to call back in 30 days to get my new receiver shipped out.

I'm still committing fraud here? :confused:

[newsposter]

nope since they waived their exclusion

[wjbjr]

Also, according to the above site, the plan is financed not by DirecTV, but by various insurance companies according to the subscriber's state. A DirecTv employee who advises one to claim for a pre-existing condition by subscribing to the plan after the fact is, in fact, furthering the fraud.

Common sense dictates that the 30 day waiting period is there in an attempt to minimize claims for pre-existing problems.

Given all of the problems, DirecTV could have -- as it has done in the past -- simply replaced the receiver on its own without reverting to the protection plan at the expense of the insurance company.

[SpankyInChicago]

BTW, regardless of how you want to justify it, it is clear that you know you are being dishonest. The next time you plan to commit fraud or be dishonest, it is probably best NOT to post your plans on a public forum. IP addresses are probably recorded and these postings can likely be traced back to you. You have just provided DirecTV with evidence against you if you make a claim... dumbass.

Okay. This is just plain silly. Nobody is going to prosecute him. Nobody is going to try to trace back his IP from this posting. The point is that while this may be fraud in the legal sense, it is unlikely the ever be something that would result in a prosecution or even a civil case. Hell, if they "caught" him they might not even disable his DirecTV service.

The point here is that this is an ethical issue. It is clear that the OP intended to "get away" with something by signing up for the DirecTV protection plan. Unless he tells DirecTV about the history of the unit and the reason why he wants to sign up for the protection plan, the OP is acting in a dishonest fashion. He may get away with the dishonest behavior, but it doesn't make it any less dishonest.

However, as someone else stated, if the OP tells the whole truth about the unit to DirecTV and they tell him to sign up for the protection plan anyway, then even if it is against the protection plan agreement, then the OP has acted in an honorable fashion.

[SpankyInChicago]

I'm still committing fraud here?

Well, technically, I suppose.

The person on the phone is probably getting paid a spiff or bonus to sign you up for the protection plan. He could care less if you later have to break the terms and conditions of the agreement.

But, from my moral perspective - and of course morality is entirely subjective - you have acted honorably by telling the company representative the true history of the unit. It is now the CSR who is acting dishonorably by misrepresenting the protection plan to you.

Clearly, from a legal standpoint, you are in violation of the agreement as the agreement states that it does not cover pre-existing conditions.

[SpankyInChicago]

nope since they waived their exclusion

Again, technically, this is incorrect. The plan contains an "Entire Agreement" clause. An "Entire Agreement" clause voids any previous written or verbal agreements that may have preceeded the acceptance of the agreement.

[jschmidt]

Okay. This is just plain silly. Nobody is going to prosecute him. Nobody is going to try to trace back his IP from this posting. The point is that while this may be fraud in the legal sense, it is unlikely the ever be something that would result in a prosecution or even a civil case. Hell, if they "caught" him they might not even disable his DirecTV service.

The point here is that this is an ethical issue. It is clear that the OP intended to "get away" with something by signing up for the DirecTV protection plan. Unless he tells DirecTV about the history of the unit and the reason why he wants to sign up for the protection plan, the OP is acting in a dishonest fashion. He may get away with the dishonest behavior, but it doesn't make it any less dishonest.

However, as someone else stated, if the OP tells the whole truth about the unit to DirecTV and they tell him to sign up for the protection plan anyway, then even if it is against the protection plan agreement, then the OP has acted in an honorable fashion.

I wasn't commenting on the liklihood of his getting caught or prosecuted. I was comenting that was, nevertheless, stupid of him to do it. Rule #1... Never, ever tell on yourself. It is not just an ethical issue. It is a legal issue. If he makes a claim against the plan even when the plan prohibits claims for pre-existing conditions, it is still fraud. As the other post here points out, DirecTV may be equally guilty in furthering the fraud. But, because DirecTV is not a party to the contract, an agent of DirecTV cannot waive that clause of the contract.

Another point is that there are other ways of causing him pain other than a lawsuit. They could get a collection agency after him and possibly affect his credit rating.

The bottom line is that it is dishonest and he shouldn't do it.

[SpankyInChicago]

I wasn't commenting on the liklihood of his getting caught or prosecuted. I was comenting that was, nevertheless, stupid of him to do it. Rule #1... Never, ever tell on yourself. It is not just an ethical issue. It is a legal issue. If he makes a claim against the plan even when the plan prohibits claims for pre-existing conditions, it is still fraud. As the other post here points out, DirecTV may be equally guilty in furthering the fraud. But, because DirecTV is not a party to the contract, an agent of DirecTV cannot waive that clause of the contract.

Another point is that there are other ways of causing him pain other than a lawsuit. They could get a collection agency after him and possibly affect his credit rating.

The bottom line is that it is dishonest and he shouldn't do it.

I agree with your commentary for the most part, but I do think it is silly to think that this post here could ever come back to haunt him. Nothing is impossible, but this posting coming back to hurt him as "evidence" against him in some future proeceeding is very unlikely.

FYI - I would assume that the operators of this board do not keep IP addresses for any length of time as keeping IP addresses is a sure way to open yourself up to legal proceedings. By discarding IP addresses you can answer any legal request for such information by simply stating that you do not have the requested information.

[newsposter]

Rule #1... Never, ever tell on yourself. .

absolutely....like you could have done something and it's obvious you'd never post it here for us to read ;)

and i'd be in jail now for all that i've done ..and so would a lot of other people I assure you....that's why there are DA's , who's job it is to decide what to prosecute. There are plenty of examples of major crimes on law and order that they choose not to bother with even though technically everything was illegal. And there are things that even if a cop witnesses, he wont bust you for because he knows the DA wouldnt' bother with it and would be wasting their time.

i guess another question is, is it still illegal if the DA decides you did violate the protection plan yet refuses to prosecute :) Of course, it just means no one cares. Society has set that threshold by prosecuting what is deemed appropriate vs a waste of time.

[jschmidt]

Okay, now we're really getting off topic. But, just for the record... The DA only has so much power in determining what criminal charges to bring. The DA has no involvement over whether a civil suit is brought against someone. The DA has no involvement over whether a collection agency is hired or negative reports are made on one's credit report.

I wasn't offering legal advice per se. I was offering my opinion based on legal and ethical concerns. Perhaps my concern is not practical since some people seem to think that a satellite receiver is small potatoes for a big company like DirecTV. But, that doesn't make it right. I wouldn't do what the poster is suggesting and if I was, I certainly would not have posted it on a public forum.

[RMSko]

For those claiming that this is fraud, you should know that it is D*'s (maybe informal) policy to allow people to buy the protection plan and then replace their already defective units 30 days later. I know about 10 people that contacted D* in the exact same manner as Chew, advising them of their problem etc. In each case they were told by D* CR's that if they get the protection plan they can replace the defective units in 30 days. Inasmuch as D* probably uses recorded lines, I would expect that the CR's were told to approach defective units this way and I assume that D* is happy to get the additional 1 year commitment. The only thing that I would require if I was D* is that if you add the plan you are not allowed to cancel it for a year if you made any claim before trying to cancel it. IMO that would be fair, but I don't think D* has that requirementy (yet?).

[newsposter]

I think dtv isn't so stupid sometimes and knows the realities of tricks people play. this is evidenced in the fact that you cant just turn on premiums for a weekend of tivoing anymore. it's what they choose to do about each event is what dictates what we are allowed to do. They in essense, do hold all the cards.