Battlestar Galactica 2/03/2006 (S02E15) "Scar"

[Jonathan_S]

I counted 15 named dead Viper pilots. Although I don't know if that was working on all to date, or if that was just those lost in this system. I hope it was losses to date, otherwise Scar and the other raiders were really beating up Galactica's fighter strength.

I do have to say that the skipping around in time is getting really old..

It is nice to hear that Pegasus at least has the ability to build new Vipers. I do wonder if they are going to try to build designs other than Vipers; maybe something along the lines of the Blackbird, or possibly some brand new specialized design.

[sackman]

What a mess of an episode. It seems since Roslin's miraculous recovery the show has gone downhill fast. Here's hoping next week breaks the trend.

[Skittles]

Ugh, a legendary Cylon ace fighter pilot?

:down: :down:

Nice to see them humanize Starbuck a bit more, but this episode was just bad. Next week's looks REALLY good though.

[Jonathan_S]

Ugh, a legendary Cylon ace fighter pilot?
I was thinking early on in the episode "Hmm, didn't I already see this episode on Space: Above and Beyond?"

Legendary Cylon ace fighter pilot
Legendary Chig ace bomber pilot

Nah, no similarity at all.

[hefe]

Despite the problems, I thought it was a whole lot better than last week. Personally, I don't mind the non-linear stories. In fact, I kind of like it. What I'm not crazy about is the stories being so heavily single character-centric. I like it on Lost, but that's their thing.

[vertigo235]

Much better than last week

It's nice to see them actually using Mark VII Vipers, since they should obviously have a redistribution from Pegasus. Last few weeks they were still flying Mark IIs.

[dtivouser]

I'm having a real tough time with BSG this season. I understand things like character development and drama, dark stories, and all that-- but they've managed to make me hate every character on the show. Every story needs a protagonist and, unless I'm mistaken, there are none left on this show. There's no one left to root for. I can't stand the way Starbuck suddenly is ga-ga over the basketball player, Apollo is suddenly ga-ga for a prostitute, and the President is suddenly a murderer. I find myself rooting for the toasters at this point.

[Anubys]

I liked this ep LESS than the last one...there was no drama (what? you thought Scar would kill Kara?)...non-linear is fine, once in a while, not every fraking ep...

and Lee is back to normal...his angst didn't last long...

Kara takes all the risk, delivers scar for the kill shot, and Kat gets the glory...yep, that's realistic...

bah...

[fredo]

I counted 15 named dead Viper pilots. Although I don't know if that was working on all to date, or if that was just those lost in this system. I hope it was losses to date, otherwise Scar and the other raiders were really beating up Galactica's fighter strength.


I think the list is losses to date cause she mentioned Crashdown, who obviously died on Kobol.

[Tangent]

I was thinking early on in the episode "Hmm, didn't I already see this episode on Space: Above and Beyond?"

...

I only caught a few episodes of that show but I also made that connection.

I counted 15 named dead Viper pilots.

Some were Raptor pilots...

I liked this episode. I started off hating Cat but as the episode progressed it got pretty clear that even though she had an attitude about it she was completely right. It makes sense that the Raiders would get more and more deadly if they get "resurected" like the human model Cylons. Practice makes perfect after all... Scar just happened to be unlucky enough to be in the right place to get into the fight more often than other Raiders.

[net114]

What am I missing? Will someone explain to me how they are out dogfighting on constant patrols without the fleet jumping so the entire fleet is not attacked? Or is that something we were just supposed to assume?

At first I thought that maybe I missed something and this was all simulation, because it didn't "fit" with the normal battle strategy that has gone on for the entire show. Or am I wrong??

edit: and I have to say, I like the cylon pilots as lifeless, cold, no-nickname mysteries. Makes them much more scary. This is kind of like the Borg after 32 episodes and they started 'humanizing' them. Much more devastating when they just keep coming and seem emotionless. (at least for the fighters).

[Anubys]

What am I missing? Will someone explain to me how they are out dogfighting on constant patrols without the fleet jumping so the entire fleet is not attacked? Or is that something we were just supposed to assume?


they mentioned that the fleet is somewhere else under the protection of Pegasus...only Galactica and the mining crew are here.

They also mentioned that the raiders are not attacking en masse because now they die (because there is no resurrection ship).

[Tangent]

One thing I thought was really cool about this episode was when the Raider was destroyed. Previously they just blew up like any other space ship explosion. The blood spray was a very cool/gruesome touch.

[Fool Me Twice]

Very average uninteresting pulp sci-fi. One-note characters, a simple predictable plot, on-the-nose dialogue. Not good.

[Unbeliever]

Chiggy von Richthofen

--Carlos V.

[Vito the TiVo]

Every story needs a protagonist and, unless I'm mistaken, there are none left on this show. There's no one left to root for. ... I find myself rooting for the toasters at this point.

On the contrary, excellent drama often has no absolutes with no clear cut good guys and bad guys. Look at The Shield, or The Sopranos. Hell, look at ER where everyone has had their dark period.

And I can guarantee you that the sympathy for the Cylons is deliberate. There's no character in the show that is an outright "white hat" hero... they're all a little dirty. And there is no outright "black hat" villian... you even have sympathy for Sharon, beaten Six, even Baltar sometimes...

It creates great conflict on the show and even in the viewer himself (or herself).

[Rob Helmerichs]

This reminded me a LOT of last week's Apollo fiasco (where they suddenly and dramatically altered Apollo's character with almost no foreshadowing). A lot of the Starbuck stuff just came out of the blue.

This show has really started to sink. Last week I said that it was no longer a great show, just a very very good one. Now, maybe I'll say just a very good show...

[Narkul]

I think season one set the bar very high for this show. This episode seemed lackluster when compared to that.

Still way better than anything else scifi has on. I hope the success of BSG can spawn some new quality shows for SciFi. I feel they have beaten this stargate thing to death.

[7thton]

Yikes. This episode was worse than last week.

That makes 3 episodes in a row that used the "48 hours ago", etc. motif. Enough already.

This episode was what BSG looks like when it's spinning its wheels. The over all plot was not moved forward one inch during this episode. Can we get back to figuring out where Earth is, how to kill the Cylons, how Kobol fits in, how the President thinks she might be a messiah, the nuclear bomb in the hands of a "resistance" group, Baltar's Cylon detector, etc.?

There is just so much other stuff to address, I wonder why TPTB decided to waste a whole episode on "Scar".

Yeesh.

[Bierboy]

No Six -- No Baltar -- No good....

[philw1776]

I though this week's ep was better than last week's but that's damning with faint praise. I enjoy the show but even thoug everyone is allowed an inferior episode now and then I think the overall writing has deteriorated this season. I've always had to suspend logic when watching the show because the writers aren't big on creating the behind the scenes consistent logical fabric that characterizes the best of written SF.

On the plus side, the elimination of resurection ship, the Presidn't's sudden realization of her VPs 'association' with a 6 model pre-attack, and Boomer's situation have given us interesting plot fodder. I've always doubted that these writers really had a substantive plan but I'm still enjoying the story, just a bit less so this 2.5 season. Let's hope to be surprised.

[PJO1966]

This is the third week in a row where we've been introduced to a problem they've been struggling with for a long time, but the viewers never knew about it. It's getting old, as is the non-linear storytelling. I mentioned it last week, but it looks like there's no outline planned for the story arc and they're making stuff up as they go, leaving some major questions unanswered. Here's one... who's in charge of Pegasus?

[Fool Me Twice]

Bellerophon?

[dswallow]

I'm glad I watched In Justice first. This episode was pretty bad. I don't necessarily care that we get all this new stuff about characters, but what bothered me most is how we suddenly have a named Cylon raider with a personality. That just doesn't fit at all with everything we've heard about. And that one fighter could even stand out amidst the hundreds coming out of a base star and all the moving around the fleet has done, we should've heard something about it already. I might feel different if they were discovering one unique Cylon fighter, but they accepted it as having been around a long time -- legendary, even.

I'd guess we've now reached the point where the overall story arc was never mapped. That nobody ever considered where the series would head and eventually end up if it were renewed. If we get too many more episodes of this caliber, that'd probably confirm it.

[jimborst]

In my opinion the episode where both commanding officers had set up the assassination of the other CO was one of the best episodes on TV but what happened, did they lose the writing staff, was there some kind of shake up? At least one of the COs should have given the order for the assassination, and then each week it seems to slip further into the "no consistent BSG writer writing " syndrome. It just seems to have taken such a turn.

[jones07]

I thought it was an Ok episode. Unlike last week I did not once look at my clock.
And yeah, it was a 100% Space: Above and Beyond episode rip-off.
btw:Burn in Hell..................FOX

[PJO1966]

Also, for some reason I had a hard time with the "Where you at?" slang. I don't know why, it just pulled me out of the story.

[jradford]

That makes 3 episodes in a row that used the "48 hours ago", etc. motif. Enough already.
It's unfortunate, because if we hadn't been beaten over the head with it for the last month, this could have been a really neat filler episode. Instead, the moment "88 hours earlier" popped up, I audibly groaned.

The only scene that felt "important" to me was Starbuck's conversation with Sharon.

[edhara]

BSG is one of three shows total that I watch. Guess what the other two are.

The concept of an 'ace' enemy pilot isn't new - heck, they even did that in the Robotech Macross saga back when I was in high school.

In spite of the flaws, I enjoyed the episode regardless. *shrug*

[5thcrewman]

Cue the flying motorcycles!

[Gerryex]

Hi ALL,

I too was quite disappointed with this episode. Several times I looked at the clock to see how much was left.

As another post said, the episodes where the two commanders were at each other and plotting to kill the other were very good episodes. These last few episodes left much to be desired!!!

Gerry

[aintnosin]

I can't believe the negativity. I think the last two episodes have been excellent.

[Bierboy]

I can't believe the negativity. I think the last two episodes have been excellent.I agree (except for no Six this week;)).
What everyone liked about this series (how different it is from standard sci fi fare) is now what everyone is complaining about. They're bitching and moaning about how it's "different" from the way it's been; but that's what makes it great. You never know what to expect. And don't start whining again about how "the writing's not as good as it's been" and "gee, it's not nearly as good as season one" blah blah. Just enjoy it for crying out loud.

[PJO1966]

Sorry for more negativity, but I was hoping for "Ana Lucia Goes to Outer Space" to get her ass kicked (permanently) by Scar. She annoys the hell out of me.

[Anubys]

What everyone liked about this series (how different it is from standard sci fi fare) is now what everyone is complaining about.

what I like about BSG is the human drama and interaction as the story unfolds...we didn't get that the last two eps...we got one person dealing with their inner demons. But the demons materialized out of thin air and occurred in a vacuum, away from everyone else. It was detached and unreal...

contrast this with Caprica Sharon as she evolved with Helo in season 1...the change is gradual, deep, and flows along the story arc...same with Adama and Apollo's relationship...Tigh and Starbuck...very very different from the last 2 eps...

[7thton]

Sorry for more negativity, but I was hoping for "Ana Lucia Goes to Outer Space" to get her ass kicked (permanently) by Scar. She annoys the hell out of me.

LOL! I thought the exact same thing....Ana Lucia in space.

I heard Ron Moore say on the podcast that this was one of season two's "stand-out" episodes.

I hope he's wrong....

[questfortruth]

I'm going to swim against the lemming-like tide of negativity on this one.

It was a great episode. The writing was terrific, it was very well shot and edited. If you care at all about the characters by this point, then it was moving as well.

How can you guys say that there was no drama? I say you're all a bunch of spylons, and your subversive programming just kicked in and compelled you to flake out during a really excellent episode.

[quango]

I thought it was an excellent episode; the only reason why half of you are saying it sucked is because it happened to immediately follow an (inferior) episode that also focused on a single character -- although, arguably, this episode is at least as much about Kat (a character who's really developed from being a "nugget" in S1) as it is about Starbuck, and unlike the previous episode the demons haunting the lead are well-established (or did you completely forget the Caprica arc?).

Not to mention that "Black Market" was an example of classic linear storytelling, with only the one foreshadowing shot at the beginning.

And, last but not least, if you want a show where you like everybody, go watch Stargate or Voyager or a sitcom (not a knock on those shows, but they're entirely different from BSG). If you can't root for flawed people who sometimes make bad choices, there's nobody on this earth who you can root for.

[atrac]

I'm glad that I agreed with the majority (?) of people in this thread - I didn't like this episode at all either. I thought it was boring and uninteresting. It didn't hold my attention at ALL. In fact I took a nap afterwards because, well, it induced a coma.

[DriverJ]

I can't believe the negativity. I think the last two episodes have been excellent.

thank you, I agree.
I want them to explore lee's need to "die" a little more...

[windracer]

I hope Beano was a Viper pilot because with a callsign like that, I wouldn't want to be in a Raptor with him! :eek:

So, in the "previously on BSG" segment they showed Starbuck "killing" and capturing the Cylon raider she then left on Caprica (and was stolen by one of the Six models, IIRC). Are we to assume that was a prior incarnation of Scar? Or was that just to remind us that the raiders are Cylons themselves and not just ships?

[cthomp]

Despite the problems, I thought it was a whole lot better than last week. Personally, I don't mind the non-linear stories. In fact, I kind of like it. What I'm not crazy about is the stories being so heavily single character-centric. I like it on Lost, but that's their thing.

Even the producer in his pod cast about last weeks episode said he didn't like it.

[dswallow]

Even the producer in his pod cast about last weeks episode said he didn't like it.
Did he mention if he liked this episode at all?

[vertigo235]

Earlier in this thread someone indicated that he believed this would be a "stand out" show.

edit: it was post 36 http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3745480&&#post3745480

[dswallow]

Earlier in this thread someone indicated that he believed this would be a "stand out" show.

edit: it was post 36 http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3745480&&#post3745480
hehe... it stands out... outside, in the rain, on a dirt road, stuck in the middle of a muddy puddle, with a 1946 Ford Pickup barrelling down directly towards it.

[vertigo235]

Maybe he ment it "stands out" as a "not so good episode" and the other episode that "stands out" is last week's episode :)

[questfortruth]

hehe... it stands out... outside, in the rain, on a dirt road, stuck in the middle of a muddy puddle, with a 1946 Ford Pickup barrelling down directly towards it.

Hey, I know where you can buy an inexpensive DVD with the complete "Galactica 1980" series :o

Moore indicated in the previous podcast that he really liked this week's episode.

He should- it's great.

[emandbri]

I didn't like it either. I'm not sure what is going on but up until the last two episodes this really was my fav show.

Emily

[vikingguy]

I thought it was boring and to me the show is loosing all its momentum. I really loved season 2.0 until the pegasus showed up. It seams since the pegusus showed up the main arc has not moved 1 bit. The 1 character episodes in lost work because a lot of them move the main story along at the same time. This week was a complete mess jumping here and there and every were. I really hope they start moving the main story arc again before I am not interested any more.

If the cyclone raiders are now cowards since they can die why has not the pegusus and galactica taken it to the now vulnerble cyclons?

[cheesesteak]

I thought this was a pretty good episode. I'm tired of the non-linear story telling, but other than that, I thought it was exciting and riveting. Cat may be obnoxious, but she was totally right in her evaluation of Starbuck. She has the same disdain for Starbuck that Starbuck rightfully has for Tighe.

Did Scar have a scar or some distinguishing feature? I've never heard them talk about Cylon raiders as individuals - or is that one of the "out of the blue" elements people are complaining about.

Wouldn't it be more realistic if Helo were ostracized on Galactica? He has fraternized with the enemy and wants to continue to do so.

Anybody know the name of the song that played during Starbuck's and Helo's boxing workout at the end? Cavatina? I'm pretty sure I have a version of that song somewhere. Gotta check the archives.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I thought this was a pretty good episode. I'm tired of the non-linear story telling, but other than that, I thought it was exciting and riveting. Cat may be obnoxious, but she was totally right in her evaluation of Starbuck. She has the same disdain for Starbuck that Starbuck rightfully has for Tighe.
The problem is, she's only "right" because of Starbuck's behavior in THIS episode. Just like last week, they've suddenly established that a character has been doing stuff all along that we haven't been seeing.

In the actual show, Starbuck has been pretty much fine since she returned from Caprica--we haven't seen her drinking to excess, we haven't seen her job performance suffer (in fact, she was impressive enough to be promoted and picked as CAG by Admiral Ro, who seemed to have MUCH higher standards for her people's performance than Adama). But now we're suddenly expected to believe that all this bad stuff was going on all along, and nobody noticed.

Yeah, right. Sorry, but it's becoming more and more clear that the writers are just making it up as they go along. Between their mallable characters, who suddenly adopt new traits because this week's story demands it, and their botched science, this is becoming more and more like Star Trek. Which, I suppose, is fine for Star Trek (although that sort of thing is one reason I never really cottoned to it), but BG seemed to aspire to being genuinely good science fiction in the early days, and it's a major disappointment that instead, it's just space fantasy--like virtually all TV "sci-fi" ends up being.

(It's also a little bizarre that Cat has gone from being somebody who has never been in a Viper before to the tied-for-best pilot in the fleet in a matter of months.)

[ovr8ted]

The Good:

Better than last week. Using a previous story (Resurrection Ship) in another story. Starbuck (and Lee) in skimpy outfits :D . Cat/Kat character development (she is now a good pilot).

The Bad:

Is anyone else on board this thing called "Galactica"? Where are we heading? Another non-linear episode.

The Ugly:

Instant character traits. Writing seriously losing me. Recent episodes making it hard for me to brag to people about what a great show this really is.

Verdict:

I'll still watch this show faithfully each week. It is a standout amongst garbage, however, I find it less compelling to have to watch live. It is disappointing to see it taking a path often traveled, and I am hoping they are just using these episodes to given them time to revamp the main story arcs and give us 10 solid episodes in the future.

[tivolovr]

:up: Okay, I'm going to go against the grain here and say I thought this was a good episode. Not as amazing as BSG's best, but then again the best of this show is a very high standard indeed. I disagree with the comments others have made about Starbuck's behavior seemingly coming out of nowhere. I think it is true to life that one can suppress a traumatic experience (like having to leave a lover behind), especially given how busy she's been. The entire Pegasus arc kept her completely occupied. When would she have had time to grieve? That this would be a delayed emotional reaction also seems to be in character given everything we've learned about her before. For instance, when did her former fiance die and didn't that emotional maelstrom peak seemingly much after the event?

Also, I really appreciated her calling out the names of the dead pilots at the end. That was the episode's highest point. This show is brave to recall those sacrifices and keep bringing the viewers back to the flip side of all that bravery. It was a bracing reminder that every "cool" fx explosion came with a price. And it particularly paid off Kat's exuberance at her own kill and made the entire seemingly insignificant battle with a single scarred Cylon raider have meaning.

[questfortruth]

The writers are opting for non-linear narratives and story arcs, and for good reason.

The colonials have seen their entire civilization wiped out, and their new "home" is deep space. What does a lunar or solar calendar signify, when all of your home planets and suns have been wiped out? After a while you lose track of what day/week/month it is. In their case, you even start to lose track of your comrades who have been killed.

I think that the writers have done an excellent job of conveying that sense of complete disconnect. All that keeps these characters going is their pathos...and as soon as they have a chance to reflect on what they've been through, they have to deal with their respective traumas head-on (read: excessive drinking, hookers, etc).

That's why this episode makes perfect sense. There's no stardate to tell us how long it's been since the last episode, and we don't need one. There's no "ETA" for when they'll find Earth, and as Kara explained to Lee in this episode, they don't expect to live to see it.

It's self-contained episodes such as this one, which move away from the overarching series narratives, that will make or break this series. If the writers spend every episode trying to disclose details about the Cylon "master plan," or showing us how the Galactica's jump technology works, then before long the series will exhaust itself. Think "X-files" after the writers tried to explain the alien-government conspiracy. It worked well as a vague, creepy background theme, but seemed incredibly stupid once elaborated fully.

Besides, when Kara and Kat confronted each other in the briefing room, I kept thinking that they might break into a spontaneous make-out session :D

[ovr8ted]

I'll half agree with you. Of course, when I go to a pizza parlor, I usually want pizza. Some other fine Italian cuisine is OK once in a while, but you'd better believe I'm looking for pizza at least every other trip ;) Of course, I'm pretty simple eat poorly :D

[dcheesi]

Like a lot of people, I think that this episode suffered by airing after Black Market. Unlike BM, the flashback story device was well executed in this one; yet the memory of its use in BM made me groan when I saw it. Likewise, Kara's little meltdown seemed like deja vu of last week. Actually I think this ep should have come sooner, so there'd be more of an obvious connection with the Caprica episodes in the first half of the season. Then Kara's crap wouldn't seem so out of the blue; it actually makes perfect sense, except that so much has happened in between...

[dcheesi]

I counted 15 named dead Viper pilots. Although I don't know if that was working on all to date, or if that was just those lost in this system. I hope it was losses to date, otherwise Scar and the other raiders were really beating up Galactica's fighter strength. It was supposed to be all of them. However, she mentioned the one who died after his 1000th flight, but AFAICT she didn't mention the large number of pilots who went up in the same explosion (the loading deck mishap)??

[mportuesi]

I'm not down on this episode nearly as much as some of the other folks here. It's all about Starbuck.

It has been established in previous episodes that she's one to hit the bottle, and she also left behind someone important to her on Caprica. So for me, her behavior is not as "out of the blue" as last week, when we discover Lee's been hanging out with hookers.

Starbuck is facing some serious problems, and as a result she ends up losing her "top gun" spot in the viper fleet. That has to hurt. Plus, no one's mentioned the "quick lay" scene with Lee, which further develops the relationship between those two characters. I've been wondering for a while why the two of them haven't jumped in the sack together before now. So that definitely wasn't out of the blue for me.

Some people don't like the idea of the cylon raiders having individual souls, but I was intrigued by the idea of their reincarnation, and the tactical and strategic implications it means for the Colonial resistance. Basically, they wanted to retell the Red Baron story in the context of BSG.

That said, I could do without another episode that begins, "88 hours ago...."

Overall, I liked the epsiode despite its flaws.

[zalusky]

The thing is now the Cylons are essentially individual souls since they cant reincarnate.

Maybe a possible Lord of the flies degradation of their society perhaps!
Everybody out for themselves.

[Bierboy]

...I've been wondering for a while why the two of them haven't jumped in the sack together before now...Maybe because she was engaged to his dead brother?

[Attack]

I don't understand all the complaints about this episode. The writers did a great job.

The video of the first pilot to get killed by Scar was watched by the pilots. This is were the naming of the ship since it has a scar on it's face (like Omar on The Wire). Starbuck went to speak to Sharon about it. Here we learn that raiders get resurrected and that Scar would most likely have died many times before. Now since the resurrection ship has been destroyed Scar didn't want to premaDIE so he started using a combat style that gave him greater odds.

[questfortruth]

The thing is now the Cylons are essentially individual souls since they cant reincarnate.

Maybe a possible Lord of the flies degradation of their society perhaps!
Everybody out for themselves.

I think that's very likely. The cylons are already reluctant to launch large-scale assaults that will result in massive casualties. I expect the writers to develop this theme more fully.

[mitchb2]

Chiggy von Richthofen

--Carlos V.


Exactly. I was looking for Morgan & Wong in the credits. Total ripoff.

[ahartman]

Starbuck is facing some serious problems, and as a result she ends up losing her "top gun" spot in the viper fleet.

I'm still unclear on this one - killing one Raider (legendary reborn ace or not) makes her top gun? Especially when that kill was fed to her?

I instantly linked Kat to Ana Lucia as well. And I hate Ana Lucia. Therefore I hate Kat.

Didn't find many redeeming qualities in this ep.

[Tangent]

...

So, in the "previously on BSG" segment they showed Starbuck "killing" and capturing the Cylon raider she then left on Caprica (and was stolen by one of the Six models, IIRC). Are we to assume that was a prior incarnation of Scar? Or was that just to remind us that the raiders are Cylons themselves and not just ships?

I think it was just to reinforce that Raiders are living entities and not just computer controlled ships.


I also don't think that the Cylons will be so timid in their attacks for very long. At worst they need to make one long-distance jump back to their home to put in an order for another resurrection ship to be built and sent out. This is assuming that they only built one in the first place. This is a temporary situation that the fleet needs to take immediate advantage of in one way or another.

[emandbri]

no one's mentioned the "quick lay" scene with Lee, which further develops the relationship between those two characters. I've been wondering for a while why the two of them haven't jumped in the sack together before now.

I thought they had. Anyone else remember them hooking up?

edited to add: My husband doesn't think so either, he thinks I'm thinking of the time starbuck had sex with Gaius and was fantasizing about appolo.

Emily

[Hersheytx]

This reminded me a LOT of last week's Apollo fiasco (where they suddenly and dramatically altered Apollo's character with almost no foreshadowing). A lot of the Starbuck stuff just came out of the blue.

This show has really started to sink. Last week I said that it was no longer a great show, just a very very good one. Now, maybe I'll say just a very good show...

Its almost as if the good guys are perfect or the bad guys the worst you get upset. We knew Starbuck liked the guy on Caprica. We knew she gave him her word she would return. How do you not see the connection to her emotions for the guy. Heck when Cain was still alive she was all hyped about returning to the colonies to rescue her friends.
As for Apollo, maybe I am enjoying the stress of his character, but he is always trying to be the stand up guy. He finally leans on someone not part of his Viper sqad....(which I think is the point). He finds peace in the hooker. In the little girl. Dang it, he just wants a bit of companionship. A bit of peace from all the turmoil.
I know when you are under stress and can't turn to your team members you find another outlet.
I think its time you take a step back and see the big picture. Maybe start trying to understand that this episode was another piece in the puzzle about the Cylons.

[Anubys]

I thought they had. Anyone else remember them hooking up?

edited to add: My husband doesn't think so either, he thinks I'm thinking of the time starbuck had sex with Gaius and was fantasizing about appolo.

Emily

your husband is correct...this is the first time they've kissed (and grabbed a handful of butt :D )

[Rob Helmerichs]

Its almost as if the good guys are perfect or the bad guys the worst you get upset. We knew Starbuck liked the guy on Caprica. We knew she gave him her word she would return. How do you not see the connection to her emotions for the guy. Heck when Cain was still alive she was all hyped about returning to the colonies to rescue her friends.
As for Apollo, maybe I am enjoying the stress of his character, but he is always trying to be the stand up guy. He finally leans on someone not part of his Viper sqad....(which I think is the point). He finds peace in the hooker. In the little girl. Dang it, he just wants a bit of companionship. A bit of peace from all the turmoil.
I know when you are under stress and can't turn to your team members you find another outlet.
I think its time you take a step back and see the big picture. Maybe start trying to understand that this episode was another piece in the puzzle about the Cylons.
The problem is that in both cases (Apollo and Starbuck), they told us that the behavior they displayed in their respective episodes had been going on for a while. But we've been watching the show, and that behavior has NOT been going on. This is just bad writing...if they had thought it out, they could have shown us some signs that this stuff was going on in previous episodes, so it wouldn't just come out of the blue. Obviously, they're not willing to think things out. They just make it up as they go along. And I hads thought this show was better than that--it's very disappointing to find out I was wrong.

[speedcouch]

I'm on the side that I didn't care for the episode much. Granted it wasn't as bad as last week; however, I'm sick to death of the "non-linear" stuff. To me, it's just a device to fill time when the episode doesn't have enough meat to do so otherwise.

:up: I disagree with the comments others have made about Starbuck's behavior seemingly coming out of nowhere. I think it is true to life that one can suppress a traumatic experience (like having to leave a lover behind), especially given how busy she's been. The entire Pegasus arc kept her completely occupied. When would she have had time to grieve? That this would be a delayed emotional reaction also seems to be in character given everything we've learned about her before. For instance, when did her former fiance die and didn't that emotional maelstrom peak seemingly much after the event?
I'm sorry, but I didn't see that Anders was the "love" of Starbuck's life. So leaving him behind shouldn't have been so traumatic. Certainly nothing along the lines of letting Apollo's brother die because he wasn't cut out to be a pilot (and she faked his certification).

Kara has never been that sentimental a type since we've been watching the show, so why have her "mooning" about leaving Anders behind now? Totally out of character IMHO.
your husband is correct...this is the first time they've kissed (and grabbed a handful of butt :D )
No, actually Lee gave her big smack in greeting last season when she returned from a mission where he thought she hadn't made it or something. Nothing sexual, but unexpected enough that she looked surprised.

I just think the last two episodes have asked us to suspend too much disbelief when it comes to Apollo and Starbuck both. I want character development; not having the writers just decide we're suppose to accept this has been happening for some time.

Cheryl

[Skittles]

In the actual show, Starbuck has been pretty much fine since she returned from Caprica--we haven't seen her drinking to excess, we haven't seen her job performance suffer (in fact, she was impressive enough to be promoted and picked as CAG by Admiral Ro, who seemed to have MUCH higher standards for her people's performance than Adama). But now we're suddenly expected to believe that all this bad stuff was going on all along, and nobody noticed.A very emphatic +1.

As a small addition to the above comments, the problem with the Starbuck story isn't the angle they took. In point of fact, it's actually very nice to see Starbuck taken down a few pegs and go from invincible Viper pilot into a softer, more malleable human being that's dealing with a wide variety of emotions that she's never truly faced before. The problem is that there's been almost no clue she's been feeling this way. She made... what was it, two offhand comments to Admiral Ro about Anders and the resistance movement? But aside from that, we've seen relatively bupkis with regards to Starbuck and this emotional wound she's been supposedly carrying for weeks since her return from Caprica. There were no precursors to her pain, and there was no basis for the majority of the audience to truly appreciate her story in the way the writers intended. Had they given us subtle clues over the past few episodes that she was still feeling pain over leaving Anders behind, I can guarantee this episode would have been a lot more pallatable for us.

Without any kind of foundation or storywork, we're expected to believe she's been nursing this love/pain for Anders for a matter of weeks. Even when she was on Caprica, we only briefly saw the emotional connection between Anders and Kara. But when she left Caprica, she didn't do it with a heavy heart. They haven't shown her with a heavy heart *at all* until this one episode. Never mind the fact that we *know* she's in love with Lee, and never mind the fact that until a few weeks ago Galacticatime, she was still hurting over the loss of Lee's brother Zach. The problem is, they threw us into the episode expecting us to presume way too many emotional issues on Starbuck's part.... issues that haven't been adequately presented to the audience.

At least with Lee's emotional downward spiral in last week's episode, there have been enough clues since the first season's second episode that it was believable. We know he's been dealing with a lot of ghosts since having to shoot down the Olympic Carrier, we knew he was feeling numb and dead to so many things, and we know that because of hints and clues they've given us over the past two seasons.

Starbuck's different. If the writers are going to take a character that's not really the emotional type, and throw her into a terribly emotional situation, give us the groundwork and foundation we need to establish credibility.

But with that said, I figure this is just second season growing pains. On the plus side, Doc Cottle hasn't been replaced by Diana Muldaur, right? I guess I'm willing to cut the writers some slack. Because even mediocre BSG is still better than 98% of the rest of TV programming.

[speedcouch]

Starbuck's different. If the writers are going to take a character that's not really the emotional type, and throw her into a terribly emotional situation, give us the groundwork and foundation we need to establish credibility.

Exactly the point I was trying to make, but you said it much more eloquently! :up:

Cheryl

[jwjody]

I didn't like the episode that much. Those of you that did you make good points on why it was good, but I still didn't enjoy it.

I just didn't like that Kat got the kill. I was hoping that Starbuck would do something awesome and kill Scar but she set Kat up for the kill then Kat wants to make Starbuck pour her drink? If Starbuck wouldn't have realized that it was a setup to begin with then Kat would have been dead.

J

[Bierboy]

...But we've been watching the show, and that behavior has NOT been going on....What in the world makes you believe that, just because we've "watched" all the episodes, that it would cover every bit of behaviour in a character? Again, this type of thing is what keeps BG on the edge. I love it.

[Bierboy]

...I just didn't like that Kat got the kill. I was hoping that Starbuck would do something awesome and kill Scar but she set Kat up for the kill then Kat wants to make Starbuck pour her drink? If Starbuck wouldn't have realized that it was a setup to begin with then Kat would have been dead.

JAgain...this is exactly what makes BG so good...you expected Starbuck would get the kill....but she didn't. And she had to eat crow.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Again...this is exactly what makes BG so good...you expected Starbuck would get the kill....but she didn't. And she had to eat crow.
Even though she's the one who did all the work...

[Anubys]

What in the world makes you believe that, just because we've "watched" all the episodes, that it would cover every bit of behaviour in a character? Again, this type of thing is what keeps BG on the edge. I love it.

we don't see Starbuck going to the bathroom, but we assume she does...but if she's having internal turmoil that makes her suicidal, alcoholic, and unfit to fly, you'll have to excuse us if we'd like to see that developing over time...

it would be like Adama and the President being all lovey-dovey and then have them declare war on each other out of the blue at the end of season 1...you have to lay the groundwork for things...they did it in season 1, they're not doing it now...

[PJO1966]

I'm on the side that I didn't care for the episode much. Granted it wasn't as bad as last week; however, I'm sick to death of the "non-linear" stuff. To me, it's just a device to fill time when the episode doesn't have enough meat to do so otherwise.


In the podcast, Moore mentioned a couple of scenes that were shot and scrapped. It seems to me that this example of non-linear editing seemed to solve the problem of having to fill the hour after cutting those scenes. They just showed the same footage over.

[hefe]

It was supposed to be all of them. However, she mentioned the one who died after his 1000th flight, but AFAICT she didn't mention the large number of pilots who went up in the same explosion (the loading deck mishap)??
It wasn't supposed to be all of them...she rattled off what she could remember. Lee stepped to complete the list with "all of them." The significance was that she had said earlier that she didn't even remember their names. Another attempt to cover her emotions. That's part of why she's such an emotional wreck. She denies her feelings and puts up a strong appearance...until that catches up with her.

[questfortruth]

Starbuck's actions and feelings were entirely consistent with her character. The fleet has been in the same place for awhile, she's had time to reflect on her feelings and the pain has started to show. How is that inconsistent or bad writing?

Remember how excited she was when Caine suggested that they should go back to Caprica and kick the Cylons off it? That raised her hopes up that she might see Anders again, and subsequent events crushed those hopes.

She's dealing with the pain now, because she has had to accept- finally- that he's gone. That's why the writers included a scene at the "memorial" deck on Galactica- with all the photos of the dead and flowers. It also explains the scene at the end, where Kara recites the names of some of the dead pilots.

Again, entirely consistent. And compelling.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Starbuck's actions and feelings were entirely consistent with her character. The fleet has been in the same place for awhile, she's had time to reflect on her feelings and the pain has started to show. How is that inconsistent or bad writing?
Because we are now told that she has been so drunk that it has affected her duties, and that as a result her pilots no longer respect her. Yet everything we've seen of her since her return has suggested that her performance has been exemplary.

Inconsistent. Bad writing.

[TAsunder]

I found this episode mediocre but I disagree with some of the assessments above. We have seen on more than one occasion in previous episodes that starbuck is hung up on Anders or whatever his name is. The strongest evidence that comes to mind was her giving Lee the cold shoulder a few times in the past.

Lee and the hooker were a little different than starbuck's drinking problem. With Lee there had been no time lapse noticeable to allow for the unfolding of the events. With Starbuck's drinking problem, it had been apparent that they had been there for at least a little while doing the mining operation, so it was my understanding that her behavior developed during this time and wasn't implied that it had been going on in previous episodes unbeknownst to us (aside from being hung up on Anders which they did show). So it's a little different, but still cheap.

I have had enough of the citizen kane time shifting. No more, please.

I don't get why starbuck and scar were unable to hit each other when doing the chicken run for 10+ seconds. I've played enough space sims do know that they'd both be torn apart and one would probably be dead.

Also don't get why kat and starbuck fell for the same trick that the saw on tape, with one raider leading them out and then scar getting them from behind. What's the point of studying tape if you never learn anything?

What happened to the other raider? Did I fall asleep when kat killed it?

[jwjody]

Again...this is exactly what makes BG so good...you expected Starbuck would get the kill....but she didn't. And she had to eat crow.
Well, that's what I didn't like. I would rather SB get the kill and Kat eat crow.

I do like the darkness of the show and the drama. But I also agree with what someone else said...there's no one on the show you can really like anymore. We're seeing a lot of people falling...I want to see some redemption.

J

[questfortruth]

Because we are now told that she has been so drunk that it has affected her duties, and that as a result her pilots no longer respect her. Yet everything we've seen of her since her return has suggested that her performance has been exemplary.

Inconsistent. Bad writing.

We don't know how long it's been since the resurrection ship was destroyed, so yeah...she's been on one hell of a bender. Since Caine's death, she's had to deal with her feelings for Anders (because she knows there's no going back to Caprica now), and so she started to crack.

How is that inconsistent?

We're talking about a character who has a reputation as a loose cannon. She punched out her XO in the first season, she disobeyed her commanding officer to return to Caprica....etc

She also showed serious remorse for the death of Lee's brother.

Sorry, but I don't find her behavior in this episode to be such a stretch.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I'm sure the writers are glad that you're willing to do their work for them, and change past history to fit the current episode. I'm not so generous. If they want me to believe that she's been screwing up, I want to have seen her screwing up, not just be told "OK, everything we've shown you the past few weeks is a lie; just ignore it."

[PJO1966]

Just to veer OT for a moment, but has anyone ever noted that "Hot Dog" is played by Bodie James Olmos (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0647453/), EJO's son ? I was just rewatching an eps on UHD and saw his name in the credits. I don't recall ever seeing it mentioned in the threads.

[JustAllie]

I find myself rooting for the toasters at this point.Why did they have to kill off our new pal Scar! :( ;)

I think the line that gave me pause to think this time was when Boomer said something about how repeated violent death was having a really negative effect on some of these Cylons. I wonder if we'll see more evidence of this in future episodes -- and hear more about the way trauma is affecting the Spylons, too. So far they seem very "human" in this respect.

[Tsiehta]

I found this episode to be an interesting exploration of the lives/concerns of the pilots. A more intimate and closer look at their world, without the politics of the Pres, or Adama, or Baltar.

[J4yDubs]

My thoughts.

"88 hours ago" Uhhg. Enough already.

Scar? I thought of Space: also. Maybe a little back story on how he got the scar would have helped. They almost did that with the Sharon scene.

I’m all for character development, but I don’t like it being the single focus of the episode. Adding in one or two of the other on going plots would have helped out a lot.

Like last weeks Apollo episode, the character turn around seemed too sudden. Maybe I’m spoiled by G’Kar and Londo in B5, but I like that more gradual change. Seeing what makes them change the way they do.

Did not like having the chicken scene go to commercial, [b]twice[\b]!

Kat got the kill? She took the shot that hit him, but there’s no way she should be celebrating like that. That was Starbucks kill. Also, they would have both been goners if Starbuck hadn’t figured out the trap.

How much time has passed in this series so far? Maybe that’s the problem. We don’t know how much time has passed, so things that should take time to develop (Kat becoming an Ace, for example) seem to be happening too fast. Maybe they aren’t and we just don’t know how much time has passed. Frustrating.

Overall, better than Black Market, but no where near the standard set to date. If this is one of the stand out episodes… Uh oh. There might be a shark jumping.

John

[hefe]

I found this episode to be an interesting exploration of the lives/concerns of the pilots. A more intimate and closer look at their world, without the politics of the Pres, or Adama, or Baltar.
That was it's intention. They do some of these focused episodes to explore a particular subject, in this case, the fighter pilot.

I think my personal preference would be to have these elements interspersed throughout the normal arc of the show, but I can also understand that it's more manageable this way.

As for the nonlinear storytelling, I'll place myself firmly in the minority...I like it. It doesn't get any more stale to me than the regular "linear" style does. One of my all-time favorite series, Boomtown, did a lot of this. Kind of their signature, actually.

[mbalgeman]

I think the line that gave me pause to think this time was when Boomer said something about how repeated violent death was having a really negative effect on some of these Cylons. I wonder if we'll see more evidence of this in future episodes -- and hear more about the way trauma is affecting the Spylons, too. So far they seem very "human" in this respect.The thing that I found interesting about that conversation was that Boomer said that Scar "hates you". Starbuck, not humans... Combine that with the "previously on" scene of Starbuck cutting into a "dead" raider and flying off in his corpse and the Cylons feeling stuff, I'm wondering how much of Scar's trama was a direct result of Starbuck... Perhaps Scar and Starbuck had met before!

Now, I'm not sure I buy any of what I just typed. But when Shannon said that, I paused, turned to no one because my wife won't watch sci fi and said, "Because you CUT INTO HIS BRAIN!!!!!"

[Stormspace]

I was thinking early on in the episode "Hmm, didn't I already see this episode on Space: Above and Beyond?"

Legendary Cylon ace fighter pilot
Legendary Chig ace bomber pilot

Nah, no similarity at all.

No, because the SA&B ep's were better. They made it last for several episodes while the Chig kept taking them out one by one.

[NoThru22]

I seem to be in the minority in that I enjoyed this episode, but I do have some criticisms. I'm surprised no one has a big problem with the amount of drinking/drunkedness in this episode. How could anyone (Lee and Starbuck) consume that much hard liquor in 80 hours and still be able to function? They seem to get horribly drunk, then their fine for flights, then horribly drunk, then a little sleep and then back to flying. Sure they showed her "hung over" at the briefing, but it's a bit much to drive the point that far into the ground.

I think I hate all non-linear storytelling. I hate in Alias where they start at the end and then do the "48 hours earlier" BS. For me, it ruins all the tension until they get back to the point in the beginning. There's no sense of "how are they going to get out of this one?" I realize that in 99% of episodic television, they always "get out of this one" but I do like to suspend my disbelief a little and have fun. It takes out the fun.

I do not mind "filler" episodes when they tell a good story. This was one I found to be good.

[Tsiehta]

The thing that I found interesting about that conversation was that Boomer said that Scar "hates you". Starbuck, not humans... Combine that with the "previously on" scene of Starbuck cutting into a "dead" raider and flying off in his corpse and the Cylons feeling stuff, I'm wondering how much of Scar's trama was a direct result of Starbuck... Perhaps Scar and Starbuck had met before!

Now, I'm not sure I buy any of what I just typed. But when Shannon said that, I paused, turned to no one because my wife won't watch sci fi and said, "Because you CUT INTO HIS BRAIN!!!!!"

Hmmmmm, interesting. Scar was the Cylon fighter that crash landed with Starbuck in season 1? The fighter that she learned to fly?

[windracer]

Hmmmmm, interesting. Scar was the Cylon fighter that crash landed with Starbuck in season 1? The fighter that she learned to fly?
I speculated on that back here (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3745852&&#post3745852) but upon further reflection I think the scene in the "previously" segment was just to remind everyone that the raiders are "living" and re-incarnated like other Cylons.

[questfortruth]

I'm sure the writers are glad that you're willing to do their work for them, and change past history to fit the current episode. I'm not so generous. If they want me to believe that she's been screwing up, I want to have seen her screwing up, not just be told "OK, everything we've shown you the past few weeks is a lie; just ignore it."

Starbuck has been a CAG for what? Two episodes? She's in a new situation with even more pressure than before...and she was already liable to fly off the handle and get herself thrown in the brigg, or disobey direct orders etc.

That she would fall apart under conditions of even greater pressure seems consistent with the character.

I can understand if someone could not invest themselves in the episode for some reason, but I don't buy the "bad writing" charge.

[Anubys]

I speculated on that back here (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3745852&&#post3745852) but upon further reflection I think the scene in the "previously" segment was just to remind everyone that the raiders are "living" and re-incarnated like other Cylons.

I thought it was the same fighter...

[chewbaccad]

I don't chime in on these threads very often anymore, but I'll pipe up here for the "liked it" crowd. It wasn't the best BSG ep ever, but was pretty good... even if it did probably suffer from following the previous two. I can't help but think they should have taken the last 3 eps (Scar, Black Market, and the Underground) and re-edited them to make them carry through 3 shows to give them a feeling of establishment. The sudden nature of everyone's flaws surfacing at once is what I think has jarred most people from suspension of disbelief, though Starbuck's was easily plausible.

The Starbuck/Boomer conversation was very good. I too think this was the Raider Kara killed earlier, which is why it seemed to take more time stalking her and the chicken-fight seemed a bit more personal... but I guess the viewer is left to draw their own conclusions. Chalk up one more vote for the cool "bloody" explosion, though shouldn't it have flash-frozen? ;)

[TheSlyBear]

Even though she's the one who did all the work...

I've had jobs like that.

[Kevdog]

While I will grant that some of the criticisms put forth by the Nattering Nabobs of Negativity (tm) are valid, this was still a pretty decent episode. I don't think it strains credulity that Starbuck could have increasing feelings of guilt and sadness over the fact that she didn't fulfill her promise to Anders (which, many of you seem to forget, was quite prominently featured in the episode where she left Caprica). Someone (Rob?) suggested that Starbuck had lost the respect of her subordinates (implying that this was a universal opinion). I disagree. Cat was certainly on Starbuck's case, but her reasons were as much selfish (wanting to be the top gun) as anything else. And while some of Cat's fellow pilots may have been on her side, it appeared to me that just as many if not more were not. IOW, Starbuck did not fall off a cliff.

I also think it's unfair to expect every single plot line and character nuance to be fully on display in every episode. It's not unrealistic for people to effectively deal with problems and issues by compartmentalizing ... for a time. So, for example, it's not necessary or even realistic for Apollo to be fully in the throes of the funk he displayed in the past couple of episodes every week until it's "resolved". That doesn't mean it's over or it won't come back.

I also think the NNsON are overlooking/dismissing/just plain dissing the long-term implications of how constant resurrection is affecting the RaiLons. Something tells me this is going to be an important plot point later on.

[whitson77]

I am sick of the flashback episodes as well. I also think these writers suck at writing for women.

[MickeS]

Enough with the unwarranted complaining, people...

I just finished watching the episode, thought it was GREAT.

Consistent with Starbuck's previous behavior (I don't know how anyone can say that her behavior came out of the blue), dealing with Anders & Caprica, which the writers up until now has pretty much left hagning... showed us more of the pilots, their routines and their lives. Developed the increasingly fragile and strained relationship between Kara and Lee. Had some very cool dogfight scenes. Told us more about how the Cylon figher pilots/ships feel about their part in this, and gave us an interesting conversation between Kara and Boomer.

So I came here all excited, and see that most people just thrash the episode. WTF?

I guess I don't understand what you expect from the show. This was classic BSG, dark, moody, character-centered and dealing with the struggle between humans and cylons from both sides viewpoint. What about that was not to like?

[vikingguy]

Like last weeks Apollo episode, the character turn around seemed too sudden. Maybe I’m spoiled by G’Kar and Londo in B5, but I like that more gradual change. Seeing what makes them change the way they do.

John


Exactly the characters in B5 changed slowly over time and they even forshadowed a lot of the changes. The sudden character changes just scream sloppy writing.

[cheesesteak]

So Scar has.... Feelings, wo-o-o feelings.

[speedcouch]

In the podcast, Moore mentioned a couple of scenes that were shot and scrapped. It seems to me that this example of non-linear editing seemed to solve the problem of having to fill the hour after cutting those scenes. They just showed the same footage over.

Well, Moore explaining it makes me feel SO much better... :(

I'm just glad I Tivoed it last week instead of wasting my time watching it live. I think I'd rather see scenes the producers think are crappy than them repeating things just to fill time.

I seem to be in the minority in that I enjoyed this episode, but I do have some criticisms. I'm surprised no one has a big problem with the amount of drinking/drunkedness in this episode. How could anyone (Lee and Starbuck) consume that much hard liquor in 80 hours and still be able to function? They seem to get horribly drunk, then their fine for flights, then horribly drunk, then a little sleep and then back to flying.

You've obviously never been in the military! ;)


Cheryl

[chavez]

absolute crap episode.

the flashback structure is getting old.

Scar? weak.

and why did they have to show us Starbuck turning around and playing chicken with "Scar" twice? because of the flashbacks shoved in between? thought their audience was too stupid to remember something they'd seen 10 minutes earlier?

the only thing that could've redeemed this ep would have been Starbuck smashing that bottle of the other chick's head.

[Rob Helmerichs]

(I don't know how anyone can say that her behavior came out of the blue)
I draw a distinction between her behavior bgeing plausible (whuich it is) and her behavior coming out of the blue (which it did). It was certainly a rational reaction to what she's been through, but they're ret-conning her behavior in previous episodes, where there was no hint that her alcohol use was affecting her duties and that her pilots did not respect her. Indeed, the past few episodes have suggested the exact opposite.

I have no problem with her behavior, only that they should have done something to set it up, instead of--ahem--having it come out of the blue.

[TAsunder]

Like I said, I don't think they are implying any behavior problems in previous episodes. Seemed like it was implied only in the time between last episode and this one.

[digdug]

I liked this episode, though it's hard to put a finger on why I liked it. This is what I took away from it:

Until now, Starbuck has been strong and angry on the inside. She never lets anything get to her and never lets anyone get too close. Being in the thick of the fray only makes her stronger and better able to shut out the ghosts that haunt her.

This episode we saw her confront her humanity. We saw her realize that she is just as weak, vulnerable and mortal as the rest of us. The stress of being the best is getting to her. She's losing her edge a bit and is angry about it. She's feeling guilty about the guy she left on Caprica and the promise she made to return. She's got some competition from kat and she hates it, but it only pushes her more. Until the end where she gives in to her humanity and limitations and accepts things the way they are. It is what it is.

As far as Apollo....I got nuthin.

[ihatecable]

Cue the flying motorcycles!Noooooooooooooooo!!!! Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[rlc1]

I think every episode this season has been great. Sure, some of them don't have as much action, and some of them don't advance the major plotlines....but I think it's good to show other aspects of what life is like in the fleet, like "Black Market" did last week, and like this week's episode, which showed what kind of stress these pilots are under and what they have to go through to protect the fleet.

As for Kara's meltdown...let's remember, their entire civilization has been wiped out, down to less than 50,000 people...and she's out there constantly risking her ass....I think it just shows that she's human, she's not perfect, and for me that's what makes this series so great. That's realism for me....no heroes that can just keep taking a beating and keep smiling through it all. I think she's the best character on the show.

[dswallow]

I think every episode this season has been great. Sure, some of them don't have as much action, and some of them don't advance the major plotlines....but I think it's good to show other aspects of what life is like in the fleet, like "Black Market" did last week, and like this week's episode, which showed what kind of stress these pilots are under and what they have to go through to protect the fleet.

As for Kara's meltdown...let's remember, their entire civilization has been wiped out, down to less than 50,000 people...and she's out there constantly risking her ass....I think it just shows that she's human, she's not perfect, and for me that's what makes this series so great. That's realism for me....no heroes that can just keep taking a beating and keep smiling through it all. I think she's the best character on the show.
The problem is this is the only time we've seen them experience the stress, and that if the writers were on the ball, we'd have seen signs of this before. It's just that out of nowhere, all the pilots are suddenly under significant stress when just a few episodes ago they were happy go lucky smiling and joking around all the time, everytime we saw them.

Someone decided the pilots needed to show some stress but never figured that out until recently. In other words, there were no plans, there was no story outline such that they'd create a basis for what we're expected to believe this epsiode. It just hits us over the heads out of nowhere.

That's what we mean by bad writing.

The storyline itself wouldn't be a problem if it didn't stand out so badly from the continuity of the rest of the series.

There should be a more coherent outline of where they're going with the series and what needs to happen to the characters to get there than there apparently is. And that's sad, because there used to be a coherent plan through last season.

[digdug]

The problem is this is the only time we've seen them experience the stress, and that if the writers were on the ball, we'd have seen signs of this before. It's just that out of nowhere, all the pilots are suddenly under significant stress when just a few episodes ago they were happy go lucky smiling and joking around all the time, everytime we saw them.

Someone decided the pilots needed to show some stress but never figured that out until recently. In other words, there were no plans, there was no story outline such that they'd create a basis for what we're expected to believe this epsiode. It just hits us over the heads out of nowhere.

That's what we mean by bad writing.

The storyline itself wouldn't be a problem if it didn't stand out so badly from the continuity of the rest of the series.

There should be a more coherent outline of where they're going with the series and what needs to happen to the characters to get there than there apparently is. And that's sad, because there used to be a coherent plan through last season.I see your point. This last episode could have come right on the tail of "33".

[TAsunder]

What? The pilots have been shown to be under stress throughout this series. Numerous times they have mentioned how they don't have enough vipers and don't have enough qualified pilots. Kat had to resort to drug use to be able to cope.

Maybe you are referring to Apollo and Starbuck. We have seen early warning signs of stress in Starbuck, and numerous times when she's appeared to drink a bit too much and behaved erratically. We haven't seen it to this degree, but it's not like everyone was riding unicorns and enjoying life before this episode.

[marrone]

I wonder how long until the cylons build another resurrection ship.

And enough with the flashbacks.

-Mike

[Anubys]

I counted 15 named dead Viper pilots. Although I don't know if that was working on all to date, or if that was just those lost in this system. I hope it was losses to date, otherwise Scar and the other raiders were really beating up Galactica's fighter strength.

I do have to say that the skipping around in time is getting really old..

It is nice to hear that Pegasus at least has the ability to build new Vipers. I do wonder if they are going to try to build designs other than Vipers; maybe something along the lines of the Blackbird, or possibly some brand new specialized design.

hey! this looks like the first post...have we come around full circle?!

:D :p

[MickeS]

It just hits us over the heads out of nowhere.

We must not have watched the same show. :) IMO, the stress and the behavior of the pilots have been consistent throughout, just emphasized more in this episode.

[jwreiner]

I see your point. This last episode could have come right on the tail of "33".

I am definitely in the camp of people who think this season has gone seriously downhill from the last. I think the longer a series like BSG goes on, the harder it is to get the same thrill from it. The "33" episode was great, for example, but you can only do that once, or at least once in a long while. The job of the writers becomes much harder as time passes, and it doesn't appear to me that the BSG writers are up to the task.

Whether Starbuck's behavior would seem out of the blue or not in the real world is somewhat beside the point. If the writers had planned ahead more, they could have worked out the same issue over several episodes. The feeling I liked from the first seaon was that the episodes pulled me in and presented the drama on such a grand scale. I learned things about the characters, but as what felt like part of the overall story, not in scenes that scream "we are teaching you something here about this character".

That is why I think many people haven't liked the last two episodes much. They were both about one character on screen all the time while everyone else is frozen in place, and we are hit over the head repeatedly with their inner struggles. How many times did I need to see either of Apollo's or Starbuck's flashbacks to get the point that they have issues? Enough already. And the fact that this "character development" was forced on us in the pursuit of the silly black market and scar plot lines doesn't help. I doubt we will hear anything else about the black market or scar ever. The Richard Hatch connection to the black market will turn out to be a tease that goes nowhere, I'll wager.

The whole episode framework where a completely tangential conflict is manufactured to give one character a chance to hog a bunch of scene time is rarely a good idea, IMHO.

Eventually, my expectations will drop and I'll resist the temptation to whine at length about each episode. I blame BSG for being too good the first season.

[danieljanderson]

What? The pilots have been shown to be under stress throughout this series. Numerous times they have mentioned how they don't have enough vipers and don't have enough qualified pilots. Kat had to resort to drug use to be able to cope.

Maybe you are referring to Apollo and Starbuck. We have seen early warning signs of stress in Starbuck, and numerous times when she's appeared to drink a bit too much and behaved erratically. We haven't seen it to this degree, but it's not like everyone was riding unicorns and enjoying life before this episode.

I completely agree!
And -pure speculation- I believe that we will revisit Caprica at some point. Having Starbuck all worked up like we just saw her, will play into a Caprica episode.

[DLiquid]

Wow, some of you guys are really hard on this show. I like the show a lot, but I thought the first season had its faults, and a couple mediocre episodes in a row is not enough for me to think the sky is falling. I actually didn't realize how bad this episode was until I came here and read this thread ;). Here I was enjoying the great special effects and advancement of Starbuck's story, not realizing I should be hating it. The haters actually do make some very good points, both the Apollo and Starbuck bouts of depression were kind of out of the blue. But this is TV sci fi, and this is the best sci fi show on TV right now even on a bad day, by a wide margin.

[questfortruth]

Am I the only person who did a double-take when Caine appointed Kara the Pegasus CAG? Not that she did not have the right instincts and strategic ability (although she needed Apollo's help to plan the attack on the resurrection ship), but it seemed to me that she was too much of a loose cannon for such a high-pressure gig.

Maybe that's why I saw her mini-breakdown coming.

Also, the new Cylon tactic of picking off pilots one-by-one, represents a whole new kind of stress and terror. I thought the writers did a good job of making that clear.

[cheesesteak]

I believe that we will revisit Caprica at some point. Having Starbuck all worked up like we just saw her, will play into a Caprica episode.
Bingo! Give that man a cigar.

[Stormspace]

Wow, some of you guys are really hard on this show. I like the show a lot, but I thought the first season had its faults, and a couple mediocre episodes in a row is not enough for me to think the sky is falling. I actually didn't realize how bad this episode was until I came here and read this thread ;). Here I was enjoying the great special effects and advancement of Starbuck's story, not realizing I should be hating it. The haters actually do make some very good points, both the Apollo and Starbuck bouts of depression were kind of out of the blue. But this is TV sci fi, and this is the best sci fi show on TV right now even on a bad day, by a wide margin.

What he said.

With the Apollo storyline I thought that one was out of the blue. This one with Starbuck, not so much. She's a Maverick, out of control, reckless and redundant. :) At any rate this should be a natural progression for the character to cope with the one upmanship present in the viper pilots. She is still the best pilot in the fleet as she went toe to toe with scar and lived. All kat did was shoot him down after being handed him on a platter. This Starbuck episode at least made some sense due to the fact that it drew on things we've seen.

[MickeS]

I actually didn't realize how bad this episode was until I came here and read this thread . Here I was enjoying the great special effects and advancement of Starbuck's story, not realizing I should be hating it.

:D:D Same here. Kind of a buzz kill coming in here actually, I was so excited after seeing this episode. Until I learned that it sucked.

[Warren]

I have a question. Since the Cylons are Machines or computers if you will. Then how come they still can't be "Rebron" after they die. isn't there still a copy of the Orgianl "OS" somewhere? Sure they might not have the new files from the one that died

[hefe]

Sure they might not have the new files from the one that died
I guess that is the problem though...The ones that know that they will no longer resurrect are not willing to take the same chances with their own oblivion. For the cylons to behave the way they used to, you would have to convince them it's no big deal to die, or at least that their cause is worth the risk. The "new files" are presumably new consciousnesses. The old ones, and their experience, will die and be replaced by fresh but new minds. Assuming they have enough hardware to put them into...

[5thcrewman]

Make sure you always test your backups!

[madscientist]

I agree the flashback is getting old. I understood why they did it last week, although I didn't think it worked as well as they'd hoped. This time it worked better but it's getting pretty dated as a concept.

However, I really liked the episode. Yes, sure, some thing jumped out that maybe hadn't had a really solid foundation laid down. There are a lot of characters in the show and different shows focus on different ones; I guess I give them some license and infer that these things are happening while Apollo is out looking for black marketeers or whatever.

Here's what I liked about it: Starbuck grows a lot in this episode. When she confronts Kat she sees a bit of herself in Kat. Why was Starbuck such a hotshot? Yes, obviously a lot of skill but also (as she says herself later) she just didn't care so she took insane chances. Kat is like that. Starbuck sees it. She realizes that, in the grand scheme of things, having the top gun mug is not really all that important. She sees it's something she doesn't need anymore, but that Kat needs it. She's growing into the role of an officer; top gun is for the regular pilots: it's something they care a lot about, but a CAG or flight officer, etc. has to worry about more than that. They have to care about their people. And Starbuck is becoming bigger than just a gunner's reputation.

[jradford]

Here's what I liked about it: Starbuck grows a lot in this episode. When she confronts Kat she sees a bit of herself in Kat. Why was Starbuck such a hotshot? Yes, obviously a lot of skill but also (as she says herself later) she just didn't care so she took insane chances. Kat is like that. Starbuck sees it. She realizes that, in the grand scheme of things, having the top gun mug is not really all that important. She sees it's something she doesn't need anymore, but that Kat needs it. She's growing into the role of an officer; top gun is for the regular pilots: it's something they care a lot about, but a CAG or flight officer, etc. has to worry about more than that. They have to care about their people. And Starbuck is becoming bigger than just a gunner's reputation.
:up: :up: I like this view on the "top gun" mug scene. I took it differently, but after reading this, it makes a lot more sense to me why she would be willing to swallow her pride and give it up. At the time, it felt a little out of character to me.

[philw1776]

I don't understand why some folks characterize those who've posted cogent criticims of the lack of character setup in the story arc as "haters". I don't have a problem with non-linear storytelling and like another poster I loved the original concept of "Boomtown" telling the same story from different viewpoints. I'd have no objection were BSG's writers doing this to show heretofore unrevealed character traits.

BSG can recover its excellence if the writers work harder and like the Cylons "have a plan".

[TAsunder]

Based on the ubiquitous commercials for BSG on sci-fi, I'm assuming that everything will change if that baby is ever born. Or maybe nothing will change and they are just teasing us. Jerks!

[Church AV Guy]

This really was similar to the "Space Above and Beyond" episode. At one point, someone even says to Starbuck that she is so drunk she can hardly stand. I expected her to say, "The viper is flown from the seated position." Of course, the "tank" who said that is now playing Buchanan on 24.

I thought the over the top excessiveness of Starbuck's drinking should have been foreshadowed for an episode or two before having it play center screen. We should have been reminded of her relationship with the guy on Caprica once or twice since she got back for me to believe she has been pinning for him all this time.

I thought that Helo's comment that "they" were at bingo fuel, were too far away for her to get to them, and that there was nothing she could have done: their deaths were not her fault, would have been better left unsaid. Starbuck knew all this. She was frustrated that the Cylons would have been smart enough to have done this. Their tactics are greatly improving.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I don't understand why some folks characterize those who've posted cogent criticims of the lack of character setup in the story arc as "haters".
Yeah, I'm not a hater. I'm a lover. It's just that, in my opinion, in the past few weeeks BG has dropped from by far the best show on television to one of the very best shows on television. And that makes me sad and disappointed, irrational as it may be. Call me greedy! I want the great BG back. But I'll settle for the very good BG if I must.

[DLiquid]

When I said "haters" it was in jest, and I even admitted that the "haters" made some good points.

[Bierboy]

...if the writers work harder and like the Cylons "have a plan".Of course they do...they say so in every ep opening sequence ;) ...oh, you mean the writers!

[bryan314]

I have a question. Since the Cylons are Machines or computers if you will. Then how come they still can't be "Rebron" after they die. isn't there still a copy of the Orgianl "OS" somewhere? Sure they might not have the new files from the one that died
They probably do have older backups on the cylon home world but I suspect it'd be like the difference between a backup of yourself when you were 10 vs one made last week. The younger one just wouldn't be 'you.' Too much time has passed. Also wouldn't be able to do your job, drive, etc.

[5thcrewman]

They probably do have older backups on the cylon home world but I suspect it'd be like the difference between a backup of yourself when you were 10 vs one made last week. The younger one just wouldn't be 'you.' Too much time has passed. Also wouldn't be able to do your job, drive, etc.
Too many new peripherals and no drivers loaded!

[jwreiner]

Okay, this is going to be a mistake, because I'm expecting more consistency from BSG than I should, but here goes ...

The Sharon on BSG now seems to know everything the other Sharon knew. I assumed that was because when a spylon dies, all the other spylons know what she knows (why this communication would only be possible at death is a bit hard to figure out, but whatever).

So when scar has died before, wouldn't all the raiders know what it knew? Wouldn't they all be equally good? Maybe the reincarnated scar would be fraked off more, but that would seem to be a tactical disadvantage.

Okay, the raiders just work differently, problem solved. But when the rules change every week, it is hard to keep up.

[MickeS]

I assumed that was because when a spylon dies, all the other spylons know what she knows (why this communication would only be possible at death is a bit hard to figure out, but whatever)

Why do you assume that? I haven't seen anything that suggests it.

[Stormspace]

Why do you assume that? I haven't seen anything that suggests it.

Sharon seems to break the standard with what we've been told. Assuming that the pregnancy of Sharon can't be transplanted to another spylon, the Sharon with Helo and the Sharon on Galactica shouldn't have the same memories since they were both functioning at the same time. I believe the reference from six was that you wake up in a new body. The inference is that the new body wouldn't have been active prior to that. If that is the case why does Helo's Sharon remember everything she did with the chief?

Granted we don't really know everything and it's just as likely that memories could be shunted to other bodies, or perhaps all the bodies of a certain model. It certainly doesn't explain scar, unless it was consciouous while Starbuck was piloting it and it learned from her and then repaired instead of being reincarnated. It certainly had the look of a ship that had been through alot.

[TAsunder]

The chief's sharon might have been a special case. She did not know she was a cylon and had blackout periods. My guess is that she had to communicate with the cylons in order to get orders and such. That's one possible explanation anyway.

As far as the caprica sharon goes, it is not at all surprising that she knows a lot. She was part of the plan for a while and knew the plan, whereas the galactica sharon didn't seem to know much.

[DLiquid]

When Galactica Sharon was killed maybe her memories where pushed out to all of the Sharon models. That would explain it, right? I agree this area is a bit vague, since the term resurrection implies that a spylon dies and is reborn, keeping the same memories, not that a Sharon dies and the memories are broadcast out to all Sharons.

[Zen98031]

When Galactica Sharon was killed maybe her memories where pushed out to all of the Sharon models. That would explain it, right? I agree this area is a bit vague, since the term resurrection implies that a spylon dies and is reborn, keeping the same memories, not that a Sharon dies and the memories are broadcast out to all Sharons.

My thinking was that Helo's Sharon was specifically setup, probably linked at "birth" to the Galactica Sharon, and received "updates" from time to time. Having all of them setup to receive the memories of all the others that die would get really confusing in a hurry.

Mitch

[Anubys]

I think it's safe to assume that the human models are different from the other cylons...

[philw1776]

I think it's safe to assume that the BSG writers do not have this issue firmly defined in their story arc plans...

[Church AV Guy]

I think it's safe to assume that the BSG writers do not have this issue firmly defined in their story arc plans...

Exactly! The only thing that is safe to assume is that the writers will use whatever plot device they need to move along whatever story they are telling THIS week. Consistency not welcome, and need not apply.

[quango]

My thinking was that Helo's Sharon was specifically setup, probably linked at "birth" to the Galactica Sharon, and received "updates" from time to time. Having all of them setup to receive the memories of all the others that die would get really confusing in a hurry.

Maybe not at birth - they probably just "blacked out" G Sharon at some point during the "33" crisis (or maybe in the mini) and downloaded her into Caprica Sharon when they figured out that it was Helo the centurions were chasing on Caprica. My sense is that it's not the normal procedure (which is 1-to-1 or 1-to-many resurrection).

That's why Caprica Sharon remembers the stuff on Galactica before Caprica was nuked, but doesn't know (for example) that G Sharon was killed by Cally until Zarek's sidekick tells her about it. All of this is established in dialogue in "Home" parts 1 and 2 (and reinforced in the conversation with Kara in this episode).

Of course, "Downloaded" in a few weeks will probably flesh this out a bit more.

[dcheesi]

That's why Caprica Sharon remembers the stuff on Galactica before Caprica was nuked, but doesn't know (for example) that G Sharon was killed by Cally until Zarek's sidekick tells her about it. All of this is established in dialogue in "Home" parts 1 and 2 (and reinforced in the conversation with Kara in this episode).I thought it turned out that she remembered more than she was letting on? My understanding has been that she remembers more or less everything; I'm pretty sure that at some point she mentioned remembering shooting Adama.

[J4yDubs]

When Galactica Sharon was killed maybe her memories where pushed out to all of the Sharon models. That would explain it, right?
Isn't there a distance problem here though? I guess they could explain it with some type of relay system. But then why did they need to trail the resurrection ship?

Consistent or well thought out, BSG isn't. I still like it though (for what is it).

John

[jcondon]

Apollo is suddenly ga-ga for a prostitute, and the President is suddenly a murderer.


Thats over. He is back to normal. He was only dark for two episodes. Came on almost out of no where and is gone now. He is all better and worried about Starbuck's mental state / drinking.

They really need to stop making every thing fit in one hour. Develop the charchters. Not everything needs (or even should) fit in 1 or 2 episodes.

I was actually half hoping scar would kill Starbuck and the other woman she was flying/fighting with. In SD you could barely even see how scared up scar was.

Totally lame story. Hope this week is better.

[jcondon]

not every fraking ep...


They also need to invent some more curse words or cut back on using this one. fraking everyone one and everything. Every 3rd word seems to be fraking. It was funny / cute for maybe the first season.

[5thcrewman]

They also need to invent some more curse words or cut back on using this one. fraking everyone one and everything. Every 3rd word seems to be fraking. It was funny / cute for maybe the first season.

Wotta frakin' sith head! ;)

[chewbaccad]

They also need to invent some more curse words or cut back on using this one. fraking everyone one and everything. Every 3rd word seems to be fraking. It was funny / cute for maybe the first season.

I would agree... a few more colorful epithets would be welcome, because they really seem to be overusing the "frak" button lately.

[darthrsg]

:D:D Same here. Kind of a buzz kill coming in here actually, I was so excited after seeing this episode. Until I learned that it sucked.
lol, same here. at least i enjoyed it for a week. :)

[quango]

I thought it turned out that she remembered more than she was letting on? My understanding has been that she remembers more or less everything; I'm pretty sure that at some point she mentioned remembering shooting Adama.

My recollection is that she never said that; I think once she said "I remember everything that happened to her" [G Sharon] or some such, but all the examples are of things that took place before Helo was abandoned on Caprica. C Sharon remembers being G Sharon, but I don't see any dialog that says she could remember things that happened to G Sharon after her consciousness was "forked" from hers, which must have happened by the end of "33" (and nobody would have bothered with before the end of the mini).

And, if she'd known about G Sharon capping the old man, she probably wouldn't have meandered around waiting for Lee to pull a gun on her (or Laura to space her) the second she showed up back in the fleet.

Besides, the existence of the resurrection ship suggests that G Sharon couldn't have been downloaded all the way to Caprica when she died.

[mrmike]

They also need to invent some more curse words or cut back on using this one. fraking everyone one and everything. Every 3rd word seems to be fraking. It was funny / cute for maybe the first season.

Yeah, whatever happened to felgercarb?