watch 20/20 this Friday it looks good

[lee espinoza]

it is about:

Stupid in America: How We Are Cheating Our Kids: Comparing U.S. students to those in other countries.

[omnibus]

We absolutely don't need 20/20 for proof of that!

[tetspa]

I just have a wishlist for "John Stossel" - it get's 20/20 + any specials he does + talk shows, etc. He's always a watch.

[SparkleMotion]

I think of him more as a cuckoo clock. :p

[jrinck]

I don't know if this is just California or not, but in order to graduate from high school you need to pass a test that measures your proficiency in 8th grade Math and English.

So tell me, if they only want to ensure you're proficient up to 8th grade, why the hell bother with 9 through 12?

:confused:

[Jeeters]

For college. 8-grade proficiency is to at least make sure you can function for Walmart or a kiosk job at the mall. 9-12 is for those wishing better for themselves.

[TX WJ]

Must see TV tonight on ABC News 20/20 10:00 PM tonight!

Video Promo (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1491217)

'Stupid in America'
John Stossel Looks at How U.S. Public Schools Are Failing Kids
Jan. 9, 2006 — - American students fizzle in international comparisons, placing 18th in reading, 22nd in science and 28th in math -- behind countries like Poland, Australia and Korea. But why? Are American kids less intelligent? John Stossel looks at the ways the U.S. public education system cheats students out of a quality education in "Stupid in America: How We Cheat Our Kids," airing this Friday at 10 p.m.

"We're not stupid. ... But we could do better," one high school student tells Stossel. Another says, "I think it has to be something with the school, 'cause I don't think we're stupider."

That's the question Stossel examines in his special report: What is it that's going wrong in public schools? There are many factors that contribute to failure in school. A major factor, Stossel finds, is the government's monopoly over the school system. Parents don't get to choose where to send their children. In other countries, choice brings competition, and competition improves performance.

Stossel questions government officials, union leaders, parents and students and learns some surprising things about what's happening in U.S. schools. He also examines how the educational system can be improved upon and reports on innovative programs across the country.

"Stupid In America: How We Cheat Our Kids" with John Stossel airs Jan. 13, at 10 p.m.

Copyright © 2006 ABC News Internet Ventures

[allan]

I don't know if this is just California or not, but in order to graduate from high school you need to pass a test that measures your proficiency in 8th grade Math and English.

So tell me, if they only want to ensure you're proficient up to 8th grade, why the hell bother with 9 through 12?

:confused:

The worst thing is the large number of people who aren't even at THAT level! :(

[SparkleMotion]

Must see TV tonight on ABC News 20/20 10:00 PM tonight!That's not tonight, is it?

[MickeS]

I don't want to get too political, but what is the problem here?

America depends on a large, "stupid" majority, in order to keep bottom fifth wages extremely low ("hey, I'm stupid, I don't deserve better"), so the rest can have a decent standard.

To look at something like this and think it's some kind of isolated problem that isn't related to how the American class system works is idiotic and counter productive. When you make comparisons with other countries, you have to look at their economic and political systems as a whole in order to make it meaningful.

I'll still try and watch the report, but to say this is a problem with education is missing the point.

[DougF]

...So tell me, if they only want to ensure you're proficient up to 8th grade, why the hell bother with 9 through 12?...

So you can get laid after the prom.

[jrinck]

I don't want to get too political, but what is the problem here?

America depends on a large, "stupid" majority, in order to keep bottom fifth wages extremely low ("hey, I'm stupid, I don't deserve better"), so the rest can have a decent standard.

To look at something like this and think it's some kind of isolated problem that isn't related to how the American class system works is idiotic and counter productive. When you make comparisons with other countries, you have to look at their economic and political systems as a whole in order to make it meaningful.

I'll still try and watch the report, but to say this is a problem with education is missing the point.

The flaw in this system, however, is that our government then feels sorry for the low earners, and mandates that they be given all sorts of goodies, including subsidized housing, food, and health care.

Those low earners, then, get a quality of life that's on par with the middle class, which means that the middle class person is really working his or her butt off for nothing, at least theoretically.

The only saving grace for the genuine middle class person is that they actually have the ability to rise higher, whereas the subsidized middle class will remain there forever since they've simply been given everything for minimum effort. They don't have the skills or the need to rise out of it.

[allan]

The flaw in this system, however, is that our government then feels sorry for the low earners, and mandates that they be given all sorts of goodies, including subsidized housing, food, and health care.

Those low earners, then, get a quality of life that's on par with the middle class, which means that the middle class person is really working his or her butt off for nothing, at least theoretically.

The only saving grace for the genuine middle class person is that they actually have the ability to rise higher, whereas the subsidized middle class will remain there forever since they've simply been given everything for minimum effort. They don't have the skills or the need to rise out of it.

Then the middle-class person will realize what a sucker he is and start slacking off and receiving the goodies himself. Especially if he thinks he's about as high as he's likely to get anyway.

[Steveknj]

For college. 8-grade proficiency is to at least make sure you can function for Walmart or a kiosk job at the mall. 9-12 is for those wishing better for themselves.


Unless you can run with a football or shoot a basketball, then if you can identify a book, you can go to college :)

[Steveknj]

The flaw in this system, however, is that our government then feels sorry for the low earners, and mandates that they be given all sorts of goodies, including subsidized housing, food, and health care.

Those low earners, then, get a quality of life that's on par with the middle class, which means that the middle class person is really working his or her butt off for nothing, at least theoretically.

The only saving grace for the genuine middle class person is that they actually have the ability to rise higher, whereas the subsidized middle class will remain there forever since they've simply been given everything for minimum effort. They don't have the skills or the need to rise out of it.

Of course the vast majority of those subsidesed live no where NEAR anything at a middle class level. There are always those who cheat the government to get more than they deserve..and that takes place both on the low earner AND the high earner side.

OK, now that I got my two cents in, you can lock the thread for all of us going off on a politcal tangent :)

[allan]

Of course the vast majority of those subsidesed live no where NEAR anything at a middle class level. There are always those who cheat the government to get more than they deserve..and that takes place both on the low earner AND the high earner side.

OK, now that I got my two cents in, you can lock the thread for all of us going off on a politcal tangent :)

IMO, that depends on your definition of "middle-class". If you're thinking suburbanite with a large house, car, wife, and 2.5 kids, you're right. If you're thinking blue-collar worker in a cheap apartment in the bad part of town, there's not that big a gap between him and the subsidized goof-offs, except he doesn't get any help from anyone.

Edit: oh, were we supposed to be talking about a TV show? ;)

[MickeS]

Hehe yeah I'm not even gonna reply, sorry for bringing it up. Let's all agree that schools should be better. ;)

[JFriday]

I wonder if this is the episode my friend is in. He's an Administor for a school district that doesn't take out of district transfers and investigates whether or not kids actually live where he they say they do.

[Gene S]

I wonder if this is the episode my friend is in. He's an Administor for a school district that doesn't take out of district transfers and investigates whether or not kids actually live where he they say they do.

It might be. John Stossel was on The View the other day to promote this special and talked about one possible solution is to let the parents decide which school to send their kids to. Each child is given a "voucher" and the school he/she goes to will get the money. This way the schools have an monetary incentive to be better than others.
He made an analogy of the current system to be forced to do your grocery shopping based on where you live. I can understand, I would be be ticked off if I was forced to go to the closest grocery store to me.

[cowboys2002]

So you can get laid after the prom.


Well I must be real stupid, I didn't!! :eek:

[cowboys2002]

It might be. John Stossel was on The View the other day to promote this special and talked about one possible solution is to let the parents decide which school to send their kids to. Each child is given a "voucher" and the school he/she goes to will get the money. This way the schools have an monetary incentive to be better than others.
He made an analogy of the current system to be forced to do your grocery shopping based on where you live. I can understand, I would be be ticked off if I was forced to go to the closest grocery store to me.

Especially if it were Walmart! :)

[jrinck]

It might be. John Stossel was on The View the other day to promote this special and talked about one possible solution is to let the parents decide which school to send their kids to. Each child is given a "voucher" and the school he/she goes to will get the money. This way the schools have an monetary incentive to be better than others.
He made an analogy of the current system to be forced to do your grocery shopping based on where you live. I can understand, I would be be ticked off if I was forced to go to the closest grocery store to me.

California tried to adopt a voucher system and it failed miserably, much to my disappointment.

Critics claimed it would decimate the public school system. To that, I say so be it. Propping up a dying business with subsidies without addressing why it's dying is not a very good investment of your money.

Critics also claimed that vouchers could be used in private schools with private agendas, such as the worship of Satan and all the evil he stands for. If there are enough people willing to send their kids to such schools in order to make the school feasible, then THAT is what I'd worry about.

[lee espinoza]

This 20/20 just made me sad for U.S. Kids. :( :( :(

[JFriday]

Yep that was my friend inspector Johnny Lo in that episode.

[TX WJ]

A monopoly that serves to protect under performing schools, teachers and administrators is a horrible thing. Something has to be done to fix this. We are failing our kids.

[EchoBravo]

Let's all agree that schools should be better.It's not only schools failing your kids. Many need to take a look in the mirror. Lots of kids start kindergarten unprepared and literally never catch up. They're only at school 8 hours a day. Kids need some PARENTING to prepare them for life, too and many aren't getting it. If your child comes to kindergarten never having held a pair of scissors or still sh*tting their pants, don't blame the school when they're still behind in 8th grade and can't read in the 12th.

- An EX-elementary educator's husband

[Clarkey]

I didn't realize just how bad the educational system is in the US. :eek:

[TX WJ]

I didn't realize just how bad the educational system is in the US. :eek:


The American public needs to wake up and demand school choice. This monopoly is going to kill us.

[Neenahboy]

It's on the TiVo now. Guess I know what I'll be watching later. I've always liked John Stossel.

[MickeS]

Dang, I forgot to record it...

It's not only schools failing your kids. Many need to take a look in the mirror. Lots of kids start kindergarten unprepared and literally never catch up.

Yeah, I would tend to actually blame the parents more than I blame schools. I don't have the statistics, but I'm pretty sure that kids that come from a family where the importance of education has been emphasized, and where the parents both have some sort of higher education, will do better even in a failing school.

The problem here is, again, much bigger than how the educational system is structured, and how schools are funded. The problem is that most Americans undervalue education. How else can you explain the lack of interest in this area, both politically and when it comes to activities? Just look at how"nerds" are seen generally, compared to "jocks".

All I have to say is: don't come whining later when qualified manufacturing and engineering jobs go overseas because you were more interested in making sure your son got on the football team, than you were concerned about his understanding of calculus...

[5thcrewman]

So you can get laid after the prom.
"That's what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age."

[Neenahboy]

I watched this tonight. What a depressing hour that was.

It's about time we confront the real issue here and stop inventing smokescreens such as the No Child Left Behind Act. What does it do? Absolutely nothing besides increase preparation time for standardized testing, thereby removing time that could be better spent learning far more worthwhile things.

The Europeans have it figured out. Tie the money to the children in the form of vouchers. Competition is the ONLY way schools will become accountable once again, because the vast majority sure as hell aren't right now.

I was thrilled that he profiled Milwaukee's system. He was absolutely right: there ARE no losers in that situation. Those in private school win because they're in a more structured environment, and children still in public schools reap the benefits as their schools become tireless in their efforts to improve themselves.

Also, was I the only one who wanted to leap through the television and strangle South Carolina's education superintendent? "We're the most improved state in standardized tests" - of course, because there's nowhere to go but up! :rolleyes: "We don't think that the SAT is an accurate measure of student performance" - of course not, because your state is dead last in test scores! :rolleyes:

[DBCooper]

How can anyone call themselves an educator and not agree that our high schools are lousy? The next teacher who tells me s/he's not the problem is going to get 5 or 6 quick jabs in the mouth. Every teacher, every administrator, and every union leader who argues against school vouchers ought to be kneecapped. Those are the same people who have crippled the educational system and they want to keep it that way.

I can sympathize with teachers who can't kick disruptive students out of their class and I want to see that changed, too. But step one is vouchers. Let the kids who want to learn go where they can learn.

I wish I had fought the system harder when my daughter was growing up. But I wimped out and sent her to private schools. She has never spent a day in her life in a publicly-financed school. That solved her problem and mine, but did nothing to help the community.

[TIVOSciolist]

America depends on a large, "stupid" majority, in order to keep bottom fifth wages extremely low ("hey, I'm stupid, I don't deserve better"), so the rest can have a decent standard.

Last year, there was a drive in the San Francisco area to get people to donate books to people in prison. The recommendation to potential donors was to buy books that were at about the first grade reading level.

Scary.

[The Flush]

Unions exist solely for one reason, to protect the jobs of their members. Unions do not exist to improve the quality of education for our children or to improve the efficiency/profitability of a business. I believe that a voucher system would be a good start towards improving our educational system. However, the teachers' unions will never allow it. You could probably improve the educational system a lot just by getting rid of the unions and without implementing the voucher system.

I also believe that apathetic parents are at least 50% of the problems with our schools and that unions can't be blamed for all the problems. I have several teachers in my family and hear plenty of stories of both bad parents and bad teachers.

[Hersheytx]

I think of him more as a cuckoo clock. :p


Read his book. It makes you think better of him. A very Common Sense Reporter. I was impressed.

[loubob57]

I got a sick chuckle from the part where he asked "We're spending $10K per kid now, how much is enough? $15K, $20K ..." and the teacher he was talking to piped in with "$30K!".

That illustrates to me what a big part of the problem is. There are a lot of people who think if we throw more money at this problem we can fix it. Well if you don't change the structure of the system then $50K per kid won't help.

[cowboys2002]

I am surprised they did not even touch the Los Angeles Unified School System in the story. I worked at this dysfunctional place for 3 years and finally quit.

Several Problems.


1. Facilities Group (many high-paid consultants and Directors) in charge of building new schools who feel its a "victory" when a school has 20% cost overruns.

2. Outside of the CFO/Controller, Accounting staff that barely reads and writes English (the honest truth).

3. Union/Employement Structure that does not reward good workers, but "saves" jobs of underachieving office workers, teachers, administrators.

4. Most expensive high school EVER that will cost over $300 Million and only house 50% of the original class space need (do a google search on LAUSD, Belmont High or Vista Hermosa).

5. School Audit Department that has poor leadership, and is limited in enforcing audit findings. Scrapping this department would save the district 5 million a year.

More money isn't the answer. More parent involvement, school choice (or home schooling), and smaller school districts are the answer!

[BrettStah]

I just watched this... hopefully it's eye-opening for a lot of people. Some of us are fortunate to be able to send our kids to private schools, but I feel really awful for those that can't, and have to send their kids to a bad public school (and I am happy for those who are lucky enough to be able to send their kids to good public schools).

It's so logical it's not funny... attach the spending to the students, not the schools. Empower (that's a good P.C. term, right? :)) the parents, and make the schools actually compete for the money that they get. Who loses? Crappy teachers and crappy schools. Who wins? Everyone else.

[DaveBogart]

I've always liked John Stossel.Me too. John Stossel for President, I say!

[daperlman]

That President of the NYC teacher union was an absolutely disgusting person but slightly less objectionable than SC superintendent. These people are amazing, Stossel shows them they are failing (with measurements of their proficiency i.e. SAT, Grad rate etc.) and their answers are 'no we are not.'

[TiVo'Brien]

My solution: create a parallel school system along side the existing one. These alternative schools would be voluntary, but by agreeing to attend, you agree to all of the rules we all know should be in place to begin with. If the student doesn't want to learn, he goes back to the old school system. If he can't behave, he goes back to the old school system. If he can't be bothered to attend regularly, he goes back to the old school system.

I guarantee you'd have so many parents signing up their kids to be subject to the new school system's stricter rules and better learning environment, you'd have liberals crying out, "It's not fair to the losers of the world! You're creating a new class of educated elite." To which I'd reply, "Hey, these schools are open to them, too. It's entirely under their control to behave, learn, and attend."

The real problem would be in hiring enough baby sitters for the old school kids.

[Mellie08]

Wow. I don't know where to start. First of all, how many of you have ever been a teacher? I'm guessing practically no one, by the way you are completely bashing my profession. I am a teacher - I teach Chemistry in an urban high school in Des Moines, IA. (Yes, Des Moines is a city with city problems! Hard to believe, I know!) 60% of our students qualify for free/reduced lunch - basically, they live in poverty. 52% are minorities. We constantly struggle for ways to reach our students, to keep them engaged, to help them succeed.

There are few "lazy" teachers in our district. Yes, there will always be some teachers who are not pulling their weight - think about your place of work. It is a similar situation everywhere. I am my building's union representative, and that is not what is wrong with our education system. Teachers' unions are more than unions - they're professional organizations. Our local union works with our district to better our schools - not just protect our teachers.

Teachers can only do so much. I work my butt off, day after day, revamping my plans so I can try harder to engage my students. Research has shown that the "achievement gaps" are often established in kindergarten. Why? Because some students are better prepared than others. Why? Because their parents care - they're not locked up, working 3 jobs, or off trying to score their next high. Many of my students come from horrible homes. They can succeed - but it takes a heck of a lot of work.

By the way - Milwaukee's schools? Read this series of articles from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel - it's not all good news.

[Mellie08]

Sorry, I can't put the link in since I'm a new user - search for "Inside Choice Schools - 15 Years of Vouchers" with Google or another search engine.

[MickeS]

Research has shown that the "achievement gaps" are often established in kindergarten. Why? Because some students are better prepared than others. Why? Because their parents care - they're not locked up, working 3 jobs, or off trying to score their next high. Many of my students come from horrible homes. They can succeed - but it takes a heck of a lot of work.


Great point. I can honestly not think of a worse industrial, western nation to be a low-to-middle income parent in than America. This government, that says it's "pro-family" is doing everything it can to make it as hard as humanly possible for low-to-middle income families to create a real, genuine family bond, necessary to establish a good, nurturing environment that creates an atmosphere where children will be interested to learn, explore and challenge themselves intellectually.

Instead, many parents get hooked on drugs to escape their crappy 2-job reality, with medical bills unpaid, and moving from crappy home to crappy home.

As I've said before, the problem is not primarily the educational system - it's much bigger than that. But most Americans prefer not to face it. And why should they - most Americans do OK, and don't give a **** about those who don't. Except when their kids have to go to school with them.

[lee espinoza]

Sorry, I can't put the link in since I'm a new user - search for "Inside Choice Schools - 15 Years of Vouchers" with Google or another search engine.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20050614/ai_n14667509

Is this what your talking about?

[Fool Me Twice]

Leah Rimini is fat.

[cowboys2002]

Wow. I don't know where to start. First of all, how many of you have ever been a teacher? I'm guessing practically no one, by the way you are completely bashing my profession. I am a teacher - I teach Chemistry in an urban high school in Des Moines, IA. (Yes, Des Moines is a city with city problems! Hard to believe, I know!) 60% of our students qualify for free/reduced lunch - basically, they live in poverty. 52% are minorities. We constantly struggle for ways to reach our students, to keep them engaged, to help them succeed.

There are few "lazy" teachers in our district. Yes, there will always be some teachers who are not pulling their weight - think about your place of work. It is a similar situation everywhere. I am my building's union representative, and that is not what is wrong with our education system. Teachers' unions are more than unions - they're professional organizations. Our local union works with our district to better our schools - not just protect our teachers.

Teachers can only do so much. I work my butt off, day after day, revamping my plans so I can try harder to engage my students. Research has shown that the "achievement gaps" are often established in kindergarten. Why? Because some students are better prepared than others. Why? Because their parents care - they're not locked up, working 3 jobs, or off trying to score their next high. Many of my students come from horrible homes. They can succeed - but it takes a heck of a lot of work.

By the way - Milwaukee's schools? Read this series of articles from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel - it's not all good news.


You are correct. I am not an "educator". But I am a concerned parent with an Undergraduate and Graduate degree. My older sister is an administartor with 15 years experience. She doesn't send her children to their home school district.


As an Internal Auiditor, I look for fraud waste and abuse. I visit schools and offices daily. I can honestly tell you that because of the things you mention, plus the unsafe schools, students have a tough time just getting to school safely, let alone have ahard time focusing on education when their 1 parent or 2 parent home has family issues! I personally know of several cases where teachers are "alleged" to have done inappropriate things to students of the same or opposite sex. What happens? They get put on PAID admin leave or re-assigned to a local district office, where these so called adminitrators or teacher downloan child porn on district computers. After about 24 months, the district "settles" pays the person, and they get their pension. As part of the settlement, nothibg negative is written in their employment record. And just like with the Catholic priests, they bounce from one school district to another, and the parents and students are left unaware.

Don't even get me started on the lazy office worker, deputy directors and contractors. Yet, the schools keep asking for more money.

I am not saying the teachers job is easy, but SOMEBODY is churning out high school graduates who are barely able to apply for the greeter position at walmart!

[BrettStah]

Wow. I don't know where to start. First of all, how many of you have ever been a teacher? I'm guessing practically no one, by the way you are completely bashing my profession.
If anything I posted came across as bashing the entire teaching profession, I apologize to all teachers.

However, things are broken in our school system (as a whole), no matter how well-intentioned some/most teachers are. The schools are not doing the job, and spending more and more money on them hasn't improved them.

Here is a question for you... what do you think about the idea of attaching the money for the schools to each student, and allowing them to attend any school they want to, public or private?

I am a teacher - I teach Chemistry in an urban high school in Des Moines, IA. (Yes, Des Moines is a city with city problems! Hard to believe, I know!) 60% of our students qualify for free/reduced lunch - basically, they live in poverty. 52% are minorities. We constantly struggle for ways to reach our students, to keep them engaged, to help them succeed. I'm sure it's tough, and I wouldn't want your job. I wish more of the money that we're spending on children made it into the hands of the good teachers, rather than administrators.
There are few "lazy" teachers in our district. Can the schools fire those lazy teachers, like my boss can fire his employees if they're lazy?
Yes, there will always be some teachers who are not pulling their weight - think about your place of work.Those people get fired here.
It is a similar situation everywhere. I am my building's union representative, and that is not what is wrong with our education system. Teachers' unions are more than unions - they're professional organizations. Our local union works with our district to better our schools - not just protect our teachers.Unfortunately, your union's reputation is of an organization that refuses to allow excellent teachers to be paid more, or bad teachers to be fire. Rather, it seems unions want to protect the status quo, encourage mediocrity, and protect the jobs of all teachers no matter how poorly they perform.
Teachers can only do so much. I work my butt off, day after day, revamping my plans so I can try harder to engage my students. Research has shown that the "achievement gaps" are often established in kindergarten. Why? Because some students are better prepared than others. Why? Because their parents care - they're not locked up, working 3 jobs, or off trying to score their next high. Many of my students come from horrible homes. They can succeed - but it takes a heck of a lot of work.True, and not every child is going to be a straight 'A' student, or go to college, etc. But maybe, just maybe, if more competition in the schools existed, different ideas could be tried, some would fail, others would succeed, and the successful schools would become more and more popular, spurring others to try to copy/improve upon them, while the failing schools who don't change for the better will be closed.

By the way - Milwaukee's schools? Read this series of articles from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel - it's not all good news.
Here's another article:
Study Bolsters Case For Tuition Vouchers (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58082-2004Sep28.html)
Students using vouchers to attend private schools in Milwaukee graduate at a higher rate than students enrolled in Milwaukee public schools, according to a study released yesterday by supporters of that city's voucher program.