West Wing, 1-8-06 Spoilers

[mykittykat88]

" ...not enough helium in the cosmos...."

Very good episode - savoring Leo's/John Spencer's presence....

[Redux]

Very good episode - savoring Leo's/John Spencer's presence....If, as I've suspected since the finale last season, the story arc was to be that the Congressman (Smits) would die and Leo (Spencer) would become president, they've got some scrambling to do.

Was this the beginning of a strep that was to develop eventually into pneumonia and then a fatally septic total system collapse?

[IJustLikeTivo]

I liked it too. Some really good dialog just like the good old days.

I also really like the interplay between Will and Kate. Mary McCormack might have something to do with that. Between her and Kristen Chenoweth, I'm really loving WW these days.

[IJustLikeTivo]

If, as I've suspected since the finale last season, the story arc was to be that the Congressman (Smits) would die and Leo (Spencer) would become president, they've got some scrambling to do.

Was this the beginning of a strep that was to develop eventually into pneumonia and then a fatally septic total system collapse?

Noooooo!!! I'm looking forward to Teri Polo as the hottest first lady ever!!!

[simsbotv]

Is that the finale for John Spencer..Leo???

[Redux]

Noooooo!!! I'm looking forward to Teri Polo as the hottest first lady ever!!!Never fear. Even if my half-assed story projection was on-target, it's irrelevant now.

But more dangerous to your hope is the low expectation that WW will be back for another season.

[Philosofy]

Was it just me, or could you hear John Spencer wheezing through out the show? That made me sad.

[Idearat]

I'm really ready for the election to take place and someone to take office. It's tiring, and annoying to go back and forth between the West Wing and the campaign trail. It drags any thread on twice as long.

It was odd to see Leo in episode, and really freaky to have it be so Leo-centric as the first show to air after John Spencer's death. He did look older, more tired through most of the show, but it was great to see him pick up at the end. I know the older guy-younger woman thing is a cliche', but I hope we see him get a little action with Annabeth at some point. I half expected her to plant a big kiss on him after the debate.

Santos and the sneeze was either an obvious hint or just a mean tease at a future plot line. Since we have to wait two weeks for the plot to bounce back to the campaign it's annoying again since any cold should have resolved itself by then.

I went back an slow-mo'd the thong shot, they did show it as it happened. I didn't see the tattoo that someone mentioned later. It seemed too big and over dramatic when Santo's wife was so upset. Yes, they plastered her underwear on every supermarket checkout line, but did she honestly believe that it never showed above her jeans? It's not the same as if they used a long lens to peek through curtains into the bedroom, she was in the front yard. If this was in real life I agree that it would help rather than hinder since younger voters are usually under-represented and a first lady with a nice butt and a thong would catch their attention. Donna's talk with her about giving them something to report other than her underwear was exactly the right thing to tell her.

[busyba]

I spotted the thong when it first popped out on the lawn (but I'm a lech, so that's no surprise :)), and I immediately thought to myself that something was going to be made of it.

I'm surprised the tabloids went with such a relatively tame picture, however, when there are plenty of pictures from Teri Polo's Playboy spread floating around. ;)


"I forget, in D.C. do they let felons vote?"
"..."
"Too soon?"
"Just a little bit."
:D

[jehma]

It gave me chills when Leo said "often, the first symptom of a heart attack is death". How hard it must have been for his friends and family to hear that.

[mrpantstm]

I liked how Martin Sheen started the episode. But my confusion now is, is this the last whole episode they had taped of John Spencer?

If so, the writers/producers have a pretty big hoop to jump through. I mean Leo is such a central role they might as well try jamming another actor in there.

I don't think Smits coughing at the end is anything terminal. It's probably just showing that he spent time with his kids and got sick because of it. Whether this effects the campaign trail ('He's sick! He's not fit to lead!') may come up but I doubt it.

Looks like we'll be focusing on the Bartlet family next week. Maybe we might focus on Bartlet at some point.

Leo wasn't in the future scene at the Bartlet library was he? Sadly, this is helpful to the WW producers.

RIP John Spencer :(

[ADG]

There will be 4 more episodes with John Spencer.

[newsposter]

I'm glad to get back to the old WW next week. These campaign eps have to be painful for anyone to watch (unless you are a pol yourself i guess). I surprised josh didn't kiss someone in that room :)

Anyone sense ms santos jealous of donna etc being in her house having a good time? I know she said she wished he spent more time with her, but I'm wondering if she's jealous for more reasons than she stated.

Loved how he couldn't even check his mail without the SS shutting down the street. I'd think it would have been on 'hold' at the PO for scanning anyway.

[jschuur]

I interpreted the Donna/Mrs Santos scene to be a foreshadowing of her being the First Lady's Chief of Staff, thus keeping her in a central role in the next season (should there be one and Santos wins).

[busyba]

I interpreted the Donna/Mrs Santos scene to be a foreshadowing of her being the First Lady's Chief of Staff
Either that or a 3-way with a very lucky Jimmy Smits. :D


(but yeah, I got the same foreshadowing vibe you did)

[jschuur]

Either that or a 3-way with a very lucky Jimmy Smits. :D
Clearly I lack imagination this early in the morning.

I shall be resigning from my position as regional head of the Donna Moss Fan Club immediately.

[Bananfish]

So what does Santos's wife have stuck up her ass? Other than her thong that is.

I mean, geez, it's just dawning on her that being First Lady is invasive of your privacy? And that your husband will be somewhat busy if he gets the job?

[MrGreg]

They really have been overdoing the whole "everyone panics about impending [blank], but the candidate pulls it off at the last minute by just being himself." Off the top of my head, we had

-The Santos live commercial
-Santos' "don't vote for me" speech at the convention
-VP debates

I'm probably missing others. I wouldn't be suprised to see Santos do this one more time right before the election, since he's still polling down several points.

[IJustLikeTivo]

But more dangerous to your hope is the low expectation that WW will be back for another season.

I hadn't heard that the ratings were anywhere near that kind of level.

[edc]

I hadn't heard that the ratings were anywhere near that kind of level.

The move to Sunday nights has cut the "West Wing" audience from last season by 40% or so. At times, "West Wing" is battling against "The Simpsons" and "The War at Home" for third place among the networks.

[Redux]

At times, "West Wing" is battling against "The Simpsons" and "The War at Home" for third place among the networks.And perhaps (just guessing here) NBC has a replacement ready for Sunday night next season. Which means for WW to be renewed it gets a new day/timeslot (which they know would attenuate its audience _again_) only if it can compete in production costs vs. ad rates/contribution to block strength against the incumbent or a new cheap reality show or pair of sitcoms.

[edc]

And perhaps (just guessing here) NBC has a replacement ready for Sunday night next season. Which means for WW to be renewed it gets a new day/timeslot (which they know would attenuate its audience _again_) only if it can compete in production costs vs. ad rates/contribution to block strength against the incumbent or a new cheap reality show or pair of sitcoms.

NBC does have programming for Sunday nights all lined up beginning in August...NFL Football. "West Wing" could come conceivably come back in February, and run consecutive weeks through a shortened season on Sunday nights.

Incidentally, to me, the use of White House stock footage for establishing shots (an obvious cost-saving measure) is VERY noticable.

[newsposter]

NBC does have programming for Sunday nights all lined up beginning in August...NFL Football. "West Wing" could come conceivably come back in February, and run consecutive weeks through a shortened season on Sunday nights.

Incidentally, to me, the use of White House stock footage for establishing shots (an obvious cost-saving measure) is VERY noticable.

You mean the changes from HD to SD :) Yea I'd love a HD shot of the roof myself to see all the stuff up there.

[madscientist]

I'm surprised anyone thinks the cold has anything to do with the plot. I agree with mrpantstm; to me it seemed like a simple throw-away, to bring the plotline with the kids having colds full circle: after all that and he still catches their head cold. I'd be very surprised if we hear anything about it again, other than maybe a reference to Santos getting doped on Dayquil or something.

[Gunnyman]

I have read in several places TVguide included, that this is the last season for WW.

[IJustLikeTivo]

I have read in several places TVguide included, that this is the last season for WW.

That would be too bad. The writing is finally improved to the point of being decent again. Sigh..... Another program written for people who can think defeated by the LCD approach to TV.

[newsposter]

I'd rather watch WW than football...maybe nbc can put it on the subchannel? :)

[Kevdog]

That would be too bad. The writing is finally improved to the point of being decent again. Sigh..... Another program written for people who can think defeated by the LCD approach to TV.

I dunno. It may time to allow the show to die with some dignity. I really loved the first few seasons of WW and still watch it religiously, but it seems stale to me lately. The original characters don't have the same spark and the newer characters either bore me (Joshua Molina, Mary McCormick) or don't seem too believable in their roles (Jimmy Smits). Though, to be fair, the last exchange between Will and Kate and the phone conversation between Josh and Toby sounded a lot more like WW Season 1 than anything in a long time...

Anyway, this was a hard episode to watch. It was just a little too weird to see John Spencer knowing he so recently passed away.

[iceturkee]

i'd be shocked if ww makes it back next season. loved the martin sheen intro. savor the remainder of john's episodes.

did anyone else notice danny was in next weeks tease? if he and cj are going to marry and have children, then the romance needs to heat up again.

[edc]

I have read in several places TVguide included, that this is the last season for WW.

NBC has not announced WW's cancellation.

The Sunday move combined with the contracts ending strongly imply this is the end.

However, the success of "Commander in Chief" shows there is still an audience for Washington drama. That could conceivably be enough to save the show, particularly given that NBC will need to fill Sundays after football, and WW works best in a consecutive 20-week block.

[Kevdog]

NBC has not announced WW's cancellation.

The Sunday move combined with the contracts ending strongly imply this is the end.

However, the success of "Commander in Chief" shows there is still an audience for Washington drama. That could conceivably be enough to save the show, particularly given that NBC will need to fill Sundays after football, and WW works best in a consecutive 20-week block.

And while not what it once was, WW is still light years better than CIC...

[etexlady]

I will really miss John Spencer. I agree it is kind of weird watching him knowing he just passed away a few weeks ago. I really enjoyed his work on LA Law. I even remember he was on the soap, Another World, for a while.

[edc]

And while not what it once was, WW is still light years better than CIC...

That is true. CiC did a "mostly political episode" tonight, and I thought it was almost as good as a bad season 5 WW episode. :)

I still think NBC should move WW to Tuesday nights. Not only (should) the better show win, but the contest would kick up a little free publicity.

[peacefield]

I finally watched this last night, and too was sort of saddened to see Leo now knowing that he's gone. But, it was a great episode for him. His problem with 'smirking' that Chenowith kept pointing out was funny, and he came through in the end, just like he always has.

Anyone have an opinion on Garafalo in the series? She's not my favorite actress, and for some reason her funkily-cut-too-dark hair gets on my nerves.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Anyone have an opinion on Garafalo in the series? She's not my favorite actress, and for some reason her funkily-cut-too-dark hair gets on my nerves.

Well, that and too much weight loss. I thought she looked fine before. She had a certain charm. Now she just looks kind of bland. But you are correct that the hair does nothing for her.

[Shaunnick]

Way off topic here, but as much as I love the show, I wouldn't mind seeing it end. I'll admit that part of the reason is that Jimmy Smits has expressed interests in doing spots for the upcoming Star Wars TV series. I figure if West Wing goes out with a bow of dignity this year, then this will give him something that could develop into a larger plotline for that series. And I believe going out while people think it is time is better than outliving your prime. Some may argue that has already happened. But like I said, off topic, and looking way too far ahead. Back to the thread at hand now.

[That Don Guy]

If, as I've suspected since the finale last season, the story arc was to be that the Congressman (Smits) would die and Leo (Spencer) would become president, they've got some scrambling to do.
Or, as an alternative, the Electoral College splits 269-269, and while the House splits 25-25 (each state gets one vote) on selecting the President, the Senate selects Leo as the VP, so he serves as acting President until the House can make a decision.

(Here's a thought: if Leo dies after election day but before the electors cast their votes (five days after the second Wednesday in December), what happens then? It doesn't seem to be covered in Federal law.

Also, here's a possible solution: if Leo dies, have Bartlett take his spot - there is no law against being elected Vice-President, or becoming President in some way besides being elected, after you have served two terms - you just cannot be elected President.)

-- Don

[Shaunnick]

Or, as an alternative, the Electoral College splits 269-269, and while the House splits 25-25 (each state gets one vote) on selecting the President, the Senate selects Leo as the VP, so he serves as acting President until the House can make a decision.

(Here's a thought: if Leo dies after election day but before the electors cast their votes (five days after the second Wednesday in December), what happens then? It doesn't seem to be covered in Federal law.

Also, here's a possible solution: if Leo dies, have Bartlett take his spot - there is no law against being elected Vice-President, or becoming President in some way besides being elected, after you have served two terms - you just cannot be elected President.)

-- Don

Actually if memory serves I think in addition to not being elected to two terms no man can serve more than ten years and one day as president. I belive it is in there for just such an instance as a vp getting into office early after an election, so that they cannot come close to having three terms.

[ADent]

Ok. The Leo pulls it out and WINS was way to contrived.

They should have fired the debater guy for leaking and in the end it be Leo.

The writing is much better, but this election thing is just too dragged out.

The replacement characters suck compared to the originals. Kate replacing the guy from Good Times? CJs role empty. CJ is no Leo. Even Josh Molina (who I like) is no Rob Lowe.

NBC should buy 13 episodes with an entire new cast and see how it goes. I would kind of like to see Vinnick win, so no one comes back.

[edc]

(Here's a thought: if Leo dies after election day but before the electors cast their votes (five days after the second Wednesday in December), what happens then? It doesn't seem to be covered in Federal law.

Also, here's a possible solution: if Leo dies, have Bartlett take his spot - there is no law against being elected Vice-President, or becoming President in some way besides being elected, after you have served two terms - you just cannot be elected President.)


Assuming WW-verse follows our world:

(1) The party (in this case, DNC) would choose a replacement. After the electoral college meets, the 25th amendment would take over.

(2) Bartlet could not be elected Veep. Twelfth Amendment. "[N]o person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States."

[Rainy Dave]

My SP didn't pick up this episode!

Any chance that someone could burn me a copy to dvd? Please.

[That Don Guy]

Actually if memory serves I think in addition to not being elected to two terms no man can serve more than ten years and one day as president. I belive it is in there for just such an instance as a vp getting into office early after an election, so that they cannot come close to having three terms.
No - this is another reference to the first sentence of the 22nd Amendment: "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once." (Had Gerald Ford been elected in 1976, he would not have been eligible to be elected President in 1980.)

However, like the "two term limit", the limit only applies to being elected President; it says nothing about either being elected Vice-President or taking over as President when the sitting President leaves office before the end of the term.

(This ranks with "you have to be born in the country to be President" (in fact, you can be born outside of the country, provided you are a citizen when you are born, which is possible if both of your parents are citizens) as one of the most misunderstood parts of the Constitution.)

-- Don

[newsposter]

However, like the "two term limit", the limit only applies to being elected President; it says nothing about either being elected Vice-President or taking over as President when the sitting President leaves office before the end of the term.



-- Don

has any prez ever come back in any capacity in the whitehouse after getting maxed out?

[Mr. Soze]

They really have been overdoing the whole "everyone panics about impending [blank], but the candidate pulls it off at the last minute by just being himself." Off the top of my head, we had

-The Santos live commercial
-Santos' "don't vote for me" speech at the convention
-VP debates

I'm probably missing others. I wouldn't be suprised to see Santos do this one more time right before the election, since he's still polling down several points.
You mean like the Latino cop shooting the African-American kid? :)

[IJustLikeTivo]

has any prez ever come back in any capacity in the whitehouse after getting maxed out?

No, especially since the limit was enacted to prevent what happened with Roosevelt.

FWIW, not too many president do much after that office. Andrew Jackson was elected to the senate that impeached him. John Quincy Adams became a congressman and Howard Taft became Chief Justice. I don't think anyone else did anything especially noteworthy. I just happen to remember those from history class.

[mmilton80]

IIRC, there was talk about a Reagan-Ford ticket (1980), but Ford wanted too much power...wanted really to be a "co-president" instead of a vice. Of course, I read this in Reagan's autobiography and have never researched it (mostly since I just remembered it as I read this thread).

I think the West Wing should go with a women VP and say "Ya...we went there."

[busyba]

I think the West Wing should go with a women VP and say "Ya...we went there."
And then have Santos have a stroke? :D

If they do pick a woman for VP, my vote is for Donna!

[mmilton80]

And then have Santos have a stroke? :D

If they do pick a woman for VP, my vote is for Donna!

Santos' sniffle can become a viral infection (he ran himself ragged during the elections) and...sure Donna (already the VP) will assume Presidency (as President Lyman)...Josh will deal with being the First Gentleman etc.

[frombhto323]

No, especially since the limit was enacted to prevent what happened with Roosevelt.

FWIW, not too many president do much after that office. Andrew Jackson was elected to the senate that impeached him. John Quincy Adams became a congressman and Howard Taft became Chief Justice. I don't think anyone else did anything especially noteworthy. I just happen to remember those from history class.

If I have the timeline correct, Taft became Chief Justice after he was President. I think he wins the prize. :)

[That Don Guy]

has any prez ever come back in any capacity in the whitehouse after getting maxed out?
No, but that's not entirely surprising, considering that the only ones who have already "maxed out" since the 22nd Amendment was ratified have been Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan, and Clinton (GWB will join the list on 1/20/2009). (Keep in mind Ford can still be elected once.)

-- Don

[busyba]

Keep in mind Ford can still be elected once.
Well, the Republicans are looking for a candidate for 2008.... :D

[Redux]

Andrew Jackson was elected to the senate that impeached him.Johnson. And a very different Senate, eight years later (he had run twice in the interim but was defeated).

[EchoBravo]

It gave me chills when Leo said "often, the first symptom of a heart attack is death". How hard it must have been for his friends and family to hear that. Same here. It was just eerie to have those words come out of his mouth. Definitely chill-inducing.

The scenes with Spencer and Chenoweth are priceless gems. Can't get enough.

Anyone have an opinion on Garafalo in the series?She annoys the hell out of me... And I'm a Lefty.