My First Day at CES 2006

[lee espinoza]

So I spent most of my day yesterday afternoon at the Microsoft booth. I got to talk to Matt Goyer a bit about some of the recent Microsoft announcements. Matt seemed very optimistic that we would in fact see HDTV via DirecTV for the Media Center sometime next year with Vista. This is the most exciting thing I've heard come out of CES yet. I was super excited when I heard that we would finally be getting premium HDTV with Media Center a few monts back but I'm even more excited about the possibility of things with DirecTV. DirecTV has recently launched a bunch of satellites and promises to bring much more HD content in the future. I really think that DirecTV will be positioned to be the king of HD content delivery next year and to see that they are now working with Microsoft and that we will see an HDTV DirecTV combo for Media Center is huge.

I am not as optimistic, though, about the control that you are going to have with your content going forward. One Microsoft rep that I spoke with today told me that in terms of what you will be able to do with the content in Media Center that this is going to be left up to the content providers. He told me that in fact even in MCE 2005 that some broadcasts were already being copy restricted and that you could not even make a single PVR copy on Media Center. I think he is wrong on this fact as I've never seen anything in MCE 2005 that I couldn't record or even that I couldn't copy over to my laptop. I hope he's wrong. I do think though that the scenario that we will probably see in Vista is that we will be able to record anything once on a single machine (similar to what you can do with a closed box DirecTV HDTV TiVo right now), but that the content will not be able to be moved to a second machine including unfortunately your laptop. I do think that you will be able to move it to "approved" portable devices, meaning devices that things can't be copied off of. Nobody that I talked to at Microsoft seemed to have a real firm grasp of how the content will be handled in the new HDTV world.

Also, I was not very impressed with the quality of the HDTV that Microsoft was demoing using a new Dell HDTV tuner that is coming out for Vista. It really did not look good at all and even the Microsoft rep commented on how poor the picture quality was. I'm sure that this was probably due to the fact that the software is still in beta but I was hoping to see something really crystal clear like I see on my HDTV TiVo and I did not see that today.

In terms of my large media library issues I still have concerns there as well, although Matt did tell me today that Microsoft had actually tested the new Vista Media Center with a million songs in it and that it could still perform. What I saw today was slow load times still for music libraries. The Vista software was very buggy too of course, but that should be expected as it is in beta. I'm sure more will come out on this in the future and we will see more definitively on how Vista is going to handle large digital libraries.

I also spent some time playing around with the new photos features in Vista and really like them. I particulary like the fact that you can advance forward and back in full frame view from within the photo app and that basic editing functionality including cropping, contrast, saturation, etc. are all included. It's certainly not something to replace Photoshop but for on the fly stuff it will be useful. It kind of reminded me of Picasa a little bit. I did convey to the Microsoft rep who showed me the photo stuff that it would be cool if they could make sure and work with Flickr to have Flickr automatically tag your photos when you tag them in Vista already. She thought that since all tagging in Vista is is an easy way to edit the EXIF data that this might work. I would think the owness would be on Flickr on this one to ensure that they mapped the EXIF data that Microsoft is now going to let you edit through Vista to the tag fields in Flickr. Shouldn't be too difficult but it would be good for Flickr to look at this now.

I'll try and spend some more time over at the Microsoft station today to speak with their Windows Media Player expert. Matt wasn't sure if you could get just WMP11 in beta without Vista or not but I'd love to be able to test WMP11 alone out some more.

Overall Vista Media Center looks amazing. The design work is especially strong and aesthetically it is super pleasing. It was real buggy still because it's beta of course but it looks really slick. I particularly liked the fact that in My Pictures in Media Center you can now sort and show by date. I think this will be super helpful.

I also spent some time with the MTV guy looking at Overdrive and talking about the new things they are doing with Comedy Central in Online Spotlight and their services are starting to grow on me a bit more. I particularly liked how extensive a library they are going to give you to watch. 15 to 30 second commercials are going to be inserted between every two videos that you choose to watch (and you can even build video playlists). The archive was really extensive and they will have a similar archive from Comedy Central of commedians. This is video on demand here and now today and that is cool. It's a great way for them to monetize a bunch of old content (yes even inluding AHA videos from the 80s) and it's a fairly extensive library for us to choose from. I asked the MTV rep about the possibility of high def content from Comedy Central or MTV and he was not optimistic. He told me that MTV has only recently even begun filming in HDTV and that the content providers will not let them allow us the ability to download the high def stuff but only stream it. He felt that streaming it was still too bandwidth intensive. Hopefully this changes soon.

Speaking of high def. CES 2006 is ALL about high def. Everywhere you go you are bombarded with it. More than any other thing at the convention high def is being pushed big time. My favorite high def TV set so far? The Sharp Aquos LC-65D90U 65 inch LC-TV. The set claims to be the world's largest available LC-TV with 1920x1080 full spec 1080p HDTV resolution and comes digital CableCARD ready. This folks, is a beauty. A stunning picture better than any other I've yet to see at CES yet.

Next stop: TiVo, DirecTV, Yahoo!, Google, and what ever other cool things I can find.

http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/1933/my_first_day

[tbeckner]

So I spent most of my day yesterday afternoon at the Microsoft booth.Thanks for the report Lee!

I can't talk for Earl, but for myself it appears that the whole MCE DirecTV announcement is at the very least a year or two away. And for me even then they need to do something about the feeds to clients, which at this point will require an XBOX 360 at each TV.

I agree with you and the Microsoft Rep, DRM is going to be a big problem in the future and the restrictions are going to be painful.

Vista, now that is going to be another problem all together.

[ebonovic]

:) Wait... how did I get dragged into this one... by name.... :D

DRM is always going to be a pain... sadly it is there as an attempt to stop those that try to make a buck... Where as it is just hampering the "general" public from fully utilizing technology.

Anyway..... I do think basic MCE and DirecTV DVR communication (probably via DirecTV 2GO) is probably with in the year (year of 2006).

But do agree that the actual DirecTV Tuner for MCE is longer then that... (I would LOVE to be prove wrong though).

Vista... Hmmm.... I am looking forward to it... Might even just buy a new computer for it, instead of trying to force it onto an existing system.

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Transferring R15 recorded programs to a portable MCE enabled device is a few months away. Moving R15 programs to your Windows PC is 6-9 months away. All will be done through the R15's USB port.

-Robert

[Billy66]

Thanks Robert!! You are taunting me to call you aren't you. :D

[lee espinoza]

Had a good day at CES Day Two. Started out with lunch with Ian Dixon from the Media Center Show and his wife Kim along with Microsoft's Sean Alexander. It was interesting hearing from Sean about what he's been up to. Sean recently changed jobs at Microsoft and is now working with the Windows Digital Media Division. This is the group at Microsoft responsible for Windows Media Player among other things. Windows Media Player is one of my favorite applications that Microsoft makes and it's great to see Sean back on that team. Sean reiterated to me that the performance with Windows Media Player has improved dramatically in Vista and corrected my previous statement that Microsoft had tested Windows Media Player with one million songs, but told me that they've actually tested it with two million.

Windows Media Player according to Sean has had a pretty serious overhaul in the performance area and this is something that I'm really looking forward to seeing. Apparently the only way to get Windows Media Player 11, at least at present in beta form, is with Vista. I'm not sure whether you will be required to upgrade to Vista to get it when the product is complete.

Ian is hitting the convention hard and has already met with and interviewed a number of different people for the Windows Media Center show. Most interesting is probably that he scored an interview with Joe Belfiore head of the eHome Group for Windows. Joe was able to give Ian a lot of time and the interview sounds like it will be pretty good. Look to Ian's show for this interview in the next few weeks.

I talked alot at lunch with Sean about the problem of getting more HDTV content on a video on demand basis. According to Sean one of the problems with getting us more high def content on a downloadable basis is the cost of the bandwidth. Although less of a cost for a major bandwidth buyer like Microsoft, for many smaller companies the bandwidth cost of downloading high def content is still an issue. Sean thought though that we would begin to see more high def downloadable content in the future in places where it had an economic or marketing value. Sean mentioned movie trailers as being prime candidates for these kinds of downloads where their would be a marketing value to the content.

We talked about Viiv a little bit and the improvements that this might bring for Media Center functionality. We talked about some of the things that MTV is doing and Urge and the good news from DirecTV and Microsoft about their collaboration to offer you HDTV on Media Center. At first I was super surprised about hearing about Murdoch agreeing to offer up his content through Media Center but the more I think about it the less surprised I am. Certainly with the CableCARD announcement by Microsoft DirecTV's hand was most likely forced. At present I subscribe to DirecTV. If though Media Center had CableCARD and I could get HDTV through it I would cancel my DirecTV subscription and instead get cable so that I could get my HDTV content through Media Center. The more I think about this the more I think that this is just pure solid defense on DirecTV's part. This way they get to keep me as a customer and all the others who are aching for HDTV on Media Center.

HDTV through Vista either with CableCARD or DirecTV is super exciting. I know that I am looking foward to *finally* upgrading my orignal HP 873N (the very first and original MCE machine) once I find a good Vista machine as they begin to come out late next year. I think a lot of people like me are probably waiting and holding out for a Vista machine which I'm sure makes things tough for some of the OEMs in trying to build volume and will only get worse as we get closer to Vista launch.

Another thing that I'd been wondering about was with Microsoft's strategy with the XBox 360 as an extender unit. In the past I've wondered about people who are big Media Center fanatics but non gamers. Particularly as Media Center takes off in the next two years and people begin buying multiple XBox 360s as extender units for their homes my thinking was that Microsoft very well could take a loss on sales to people who buy XBox 360s as extender units. Microsoft basically loses money on the hardware for every XBox 360 they sell. Estimates are that each XBox costs Microsoft as much as $715 per box to make. If, as a non gamer, I were to buy three or four for my home as extender units and never buy any games or online services it would seem to be a bad deal for Microsoft who makes up the hardware loss by selling you games and services with your XBox.

Sean said that this was not as bad as I might suspect though as there are many casual gamers out there. Sean also talked about ways that Microsoft could appeal to these casual gamers by offering things like legacy games that would strike a chord with games they played in their youth as well as the idea of introducing more non gamer type games like board games online. At Christmas my family and I played Trivial Pursuit as we do just about every Christmas. One problem we had was that we were using an edition from about 15 years ago. The questions are hopelessly outdated. I think it would be very cool for us to be able to either buy, or even on a one time pay per view basis, play Trivial Pursuit in our living room through our XBox extender. I think Sean is right and that as people begin to buy XBox 360s as extender units that Microsoft does find ways to market to the casual gamer. There certainly will be a select few that never do anything with their XBox 360s except use it as an extender box but these folks are just part of the cost of doing business.

I haven't played games in many years but I imagine when I finally do get an XBox that I also may become a bit more of a gamer as certainly the graphics and play seems exciting. There are lines every day at the Microsoft booth with people waiting to play their XBoxes.

[tomo_kun]

Transferring R15 recorded programs to a portable MCE enabled device is a few months away. Moving R15 programs to your Windows PC is 6-9 months away. All will be done through the R15's USB port.

-Robert
And why is DirecTV not bothering with ANY Macintosh intergration whatsoever?

[lee espinoza]

And why is DirecTV not bothering with ANY Macintosh intergration whatsoever?
You could ask Tivo the Same Thing.

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

And why is DirecTV not bothering with ANY Macintosh intergration whatsoever?

As I understand the deal, Microsoft and DIRECTV are working very close on the development and I believe Microsoft approached DIRECTV first. So we need to pus Macintosh to partner with some of the multi-channel video suppliers.

In fact, Bill Gates pulled a Toshiba portable device out of his pocket during his key note speech, where he announced his partnership with DIRECTV.

-Robert

[Billy66]

And why is DirecTV not bothering with ANY Macintosh intergration whatsoever?

Because they want to partner with the big boys, not the also rans. :)

[FourDoor]

Thanks for posting your impressions on Vista and what you've found out about the DTV support in Vista.

One of the other reports I had read was that the cable card and DTV cards announced do not have any specific CPU or chipset requirements. This means that current MCE 2k5 owners like myself may actually have the opportunity to upgrade in the future to a Vista MCE machine with a DTV sat card. :D

[bidger]

And why is DirecTV not bothering with ANY Macintosh intergration whatsoever?
Maybe you should ask Apple about that.

[Arcady]

Because they want to partner with the big boys, not the also rans. :)

I don't want viruses on my DVR. Screw Microsoft.

[tomo_kun]

You could ask Tivo the Same Thing.
Yeah, especially with TiVo making a Mac compatable version of TiVo desktop (albeit pre-alpha) that supports TiVoToGo
As I understand the deal, Microsoft and DIRECTV are working very close on the development and I believe Microsoft approached DIRECTV first. So we need to pus Macintosh to partner with some of the multi-channel video suppliers.

In fact, Bill Gates pulled a Toshiba portable device out of his pocket during his key note speech, where he announced his partnership with DIRECTV.

-Robert
Ah yes, I forgot about that from the microsoft keynote coverage on engadget. Its a dissapointment that ill be left out, but im sure there will be *maybe* a compromise or some sort of software support for us mac users.

Oh and arcady, here here. Its painful enough for me to post this from my room computer, which happens to be my old virus filled PC.. *shudder*.

[Billy66]

I don't want viruses on my DVR. Screw Microsoft.


Then stick with what you have. I enjoy transferring shows and I'm really not too afraid of viruses.

{billy knocks on wood} I don't even run any virus software on my PC and I've never had a virus issue. Not to say that I won't, but if I do, and it's bad, it will take me about 20 minutes to restore the image of my drive and my latest backup. {/knock}

I'm not a Mac hater and I don't know if you're a MS basher or if you were just responding to what you felt was an attack on Mac by me. But none of that matters. As a course of business, you want to partner with the company that owns the most customers and regardless of how anyone feels about their relative quality or security, that is indisputably Microsoft.

[tbeckner]

I don't want viruses on my DVR. Screw Microsoft.I wouldn't worry about getting a virus from a Microsoft box on your Linux DVR. Highly unlikely, I would bet you would have a better chance of becoming THE POPE that this happening.

[Billy66]

He wasn't serious tbeckner, he just felt a need to take a swipe at MS to validate his preference of Mac.

[Arcady]

I wouldn't worry about getting a virus from a Microsoft box on your Linux DVR. Highly unlikely, I would bet you would have a better chance of becoming THE POPE that this happening.

Uh, I'm not talking about getting a virus on my TiVo. This thread is "MCE this, MCE that." Windows is what gets the viruses, not my TiVos or my Macs.

[Billy66]

Uhhh, first you said this:

I don't want viruses on my DVR. Screw Microsoft.


Twelve hours later you say this:

Uh, I'm not talking about getting a virus on my TiVo.

What exactly did you mean? If you were just taking uninformed shots at MS or the DTV's DVR, just say so.

[HiDefGator]

The only reason you don't have virus's on your Tivo or Mac is because the virus writers focus on the largest target platform which is Windows. So bragging about there not being virus's for your Tivo or Mac is like admitting you're are using a less popular platform. The harder Microsoft makes Windows for virus writers the sooner they will turn to the Mac as a target. Neither the Mac nor the Tivo are immune.

[dswallow]

Uhhh, first you said this:

Twelve hours later you say this:

What exactly did you mean? If you were just taking uninformed shots at MS or the DTV's DVR, just say so.
We were talking about Windows Media Center Edition as a DVR platform; he exclaimed he didn't want viruses on his DVR -- referring to Windows Media Center Edition being a DVR platform andimplying Windows is susceptible to viruses.

I thought it was quite clear, myself. Wrong. But clear.

[Billy66]

I think Doug it was less clear because his virus comment came in response to this:

Because they want to partner with the big boys, not the also rans. :)

Not to anything about MCE.

[lee espinoza]

Just went by DirecTV's booth and talked with one of their engineers about what to expect in the next year. According to the engineer, 2006 is going to be the year that DirecTV brings you local channels. All in they will be launching roughly 1,500 new channels but the most new channels any one user will get will be four -- the four network channels in your local broadcast area.

I bitched a little bit about losing my East Coast network feeds on my HDTV TiVo unit but the enginer blamed the rules and said they'd love to give me everything if they could. I still get wound up about the fact that we can't get East Coast feeds of network television because of some local protectionist legislation whose whole purpose is to allow local television stations to bombard you with local advertising that so many of us don't even watch anymore. We should be able to watch both East Coast and West Coast feeds and I hate the fact that our choice has been sold down the river by a bunch of politicians.

So not a lot of new HDTV content to expect from DirecTV in 2006 except for the local channels. Personally I'm not very excited about that because I already get one local channel and the other three West Coast feeds are just fine for me. I only really care about network programming and could care less about things like local news that I'll just get off the internet anyway. The engineer said that we are going to have to look to 2007 and beyond before we see meaningful additional HDTV content. I brought up all the content that Voom had in HD but he said that much of that was just HD channels with standard definition programming. Not sure on this or not but I plan on stopping by Dish's booth at some point to talk to them about the Voom stuff that they are integrating in.

According to the engineer the new NDS high def PVR box is due out in the 2nd quarter of 2006. He said they could be off by a month either way which probably really means look for it in June or July. The new NDS high def PVR box will operate via MPEG 4. I asked him about our legacy MPEG 2 stuff with the TiVo HDTV box and what upgrade options might be available and when. He told me that you could probably upgrade to a new MPEG 4 NDS box for a nominal charge. Another piece of good news though was that he told me that there were no immediate plans to get rid of the MPEG 2 broadcasts currently being received by my HDTV TiVo, so in other words, if I'm happy with my West Coast network feeds not being "local" feeds per say, then I could just stick with what I've already got.

The only downside to not upgrading is that you miss out on some of the slick new interactive stuff that they are putting out in MPGEG 4 like the six picture in one mixes that they are now doing in MPEG 4 and other sort of interactive downloads that they will have in the future. He did say that they have recently struck deals to sell you downloaded content similar to iTunes and that you'd need an MPEG 4 receiver to get this stuff. One interesting wrinkle that he did tell me about that might give DirecTV an advantage with some of that downloadable stuff was that he said that with downloadable stuff from Fox (which they control) and maybe some other network programming in the future that you'd be able to buy programming before it is even broadcast giving you an early jump. While I can't see them doing this with anything time sensitive like CBS' Survivor, it seemed interesting. Still, I just can't see paying for TV when I can just record it on my PVR for free. This service might be more attractive those to those current DirecTV subscribers who have the unit without a PVR in it.

DirecTV's news mix. Six pictures in one that you control the audio feed with via your remote. They have sports mix, kids mix, etc. At present you cannot customize your mix channels.

The engineer didn't know anything about the Media Center relationship or what that might look like. He did have a good war story though about how RCA basically just bullied Hughes out of the production business buy buying them just to shut them down when Hughes was making better products than RCA was. He said that there were a lot of bad feelings over this from some engineer's perspective.

I also took a look at a slick new kitchen type LCD display that DirecTV is going to be selling. It has a flip up or flip down display with a built in DirecTV receiver. Seemed like an interesting combo item.

I am of course not very excited that the only new high def coming my way from DirecTV this year will be potentially four local network channels but hopefully as more content producers make high def content available we will see it on DirecTV. The interactivity stuff seemed interesting but nowhere near as compelling as what OpenTV showed Davis Freeberg and I a while back.



http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/1942/ces_day_three

[tbeckner]

I bitched a little bit about losing my East Coast network feeds on my HDTV TiVo unit but the enginer blamed the rules and said they'd love to give me everything if they could. I still get wound up about the fact that we can't get East Coast feeds of network television because of some local protectionist legislation whose whole purpose is to allow local television stations to bombard you with local advertising that so many of us don't even watch anymore. We should be able to watch both East Coast and West Coast feeds and I hate the fact that our choice has been sold down the river by a bunch of politicians.I agree with you completely on this point. You are right that we (users with DVRs) wouldn't watch the local commercials anyway, but since 85% of DirecTV users only have receivers, they likely do, the poor souls, and most of them have no idea what they are actually missing.

[john-duncan-yoyo]

He wasn't serious tbeckner, he just felt a need to take a swipe at MS to validate his preference of Mac.
Hope you got the patch for the graphics engine based pathway for the spread of viruses. It came out friday. This fault was in every MS-OS since WIN98.

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS06-001.mspx

[tbeckner]

Uh, I'm not talking about getting a virus on my TiVo. This thread is "MCE this, MCE that." Windows is what gets the viruses, not my TiVos or my Macs.Sorry, not taking a swipe at my reading skills or your writing skills, but "I don't want viruses on my DVR. Screw Microsoft.” I can now see that this phrase could be taken two ways, one a virus from Microsoft infecting the TiVo DVR (Linux), or Microsoft Windows XP MCE having a virus. I believe you meant MCE could have a virus, not the other way around.

Personally in all of the years (23+) that I have used and worked with Microsoft operating systems, I personally have never had a virus on one of my own personal or work machines. But then again, I have seen a lot of viruses on other people’s machines, but usually but not always, the users of those machines are at fault.

But this last December, my oldest daughter got hit via a web site with the WMF exploit on December 12th, and it took Microsoft almost two weeks to officially release information on the exploit. TrendMicro caught and removed the Trojans from her machine that evening, but I had to remove the DUMMY Spyware that was downloaded. Later I when the initial information on the exploit was realized by Microsoft, I UNREGISTERED the DLL on all of my desktop machines.

Although, you have to realize that if the Mac or Linux Operating Systems had 85+% of the desktop OS marketplace these roles would be reversed.

Since 1973, I have worked on AIX, Unix, Linux, Windows, DOS, and many other vendor specific Operating Systems, and I personally have had to bypass security and/or hack a large number of those other vendor specific Operating Systems over those years, and IMHO, there is no such thing as a secure system.

[tbeckner]

Hope you got the patch for the graphics engine based pathway for the spread of viruses. It came out friday. This fault was in every MS-OS since WIN98.

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/Bulletin/MS06-001.mspxActually the patch from Microsoft was released at 2PM EST on Thursday, January 5th. I was very happy to see the Microsoft did NOT wait to get this patch released.

[Thaed]

Lee, the way you posted this, I thought this was your personal observation. I thought you were Thomas Hawk. Great stuff though.

[lee espinoza]

Lee, the way you posted this, I thought this was your personal observation. I thought you were Thomas Hawk. Great stuff though.
I know :D :p Sorry

[JimSpence]

I don't keep track that much on CES, but is it still going on?
If so, can Lee ask the DirecTV guys about WB and UPN as regional feeds?
Specifically, for those subscribers that don't yet have their locals (SD or HD) and may not for some time due to high DMA.

[lee espinoza]

I don't keep track that much on CES, but is it still going on?
If so, can Lee ask the DirecTV guys about WB and UPN as regional feeds?
Specifically, for those subscribers that don't yet have their locals (SD or HD) and may not for some time due to high DMA.
CES has ended

[Arcady]

Although, you have to realize that if the Mac or Linux Operating Systems had 85+% of the desktop OS marketplace these roles would be reversed.

Linux has over 50% of the web server market. Where are the viruses for it? Market share has nothing to do with anything. Writing an OS full of holes is the problem. You can't make things install and run willy-nilly on an OS that is actually secure.

And to clarify what I said above, I was talking about getting viruses on a Windows MCE system, not on a TiVo. And to the person who said they have never got a virus, I really don't believe you.

[dswallow]

And to the person who said they have never got a virus, I really don't believe you.
I'm another one; I've never had a virus on my personal machine at home or at work... "virus" in the sense of an infection, not just the presence of a file containing a known virus.

I'm amazed at how often I end up having to help friends clear them off their systems, and once in awhile I end up paranoid enough to install antivirus software and run a scan... but never had anything found.

The vast majority of things I've seen on other people's systems ultimately came from email; and the people involved are the sort who are constantly sending jokes and cartoons and movie clips and all that sort of crap to each other, so they're never paying attention to where stuff came from and always opening stuff they've received, without paying attention to what it is.

[tbeckner]

Linux has over 50% of the web server market. Where are the viruses for it? Market share has nothing to do with anything. Writing an OS full of holes is the problem. You can't make things install and run willy-nilly on an OS that is actually secure.The server marketplace (especially the web server marketplace) is very different than the desktop/laptop marketplace in many ways, one is the number of installations (there are far more desktops and laptops than there are Linux servers by a huge margin, factors in the millions) and servers are used by a business and are usually well protected and installed, configured, and maintained by professionals. Desktops and laptops are not usually well protected on a whole (except in some corporate and some large business environments), and are usually not installed, configured, and maintained by professionals.

But the uninformed believe the hype that Windows is full of holes, but review after review by security firms worldwide do not back up that hype. Security firms release reports almost weekly that compare the security of Windows to Linux, Unix, and the Mac, and find no real differences and some have gone as far as saying that the current Windows products are more secure than the other Operating Systems. (No I wouldn't go that far, but they have.) I would say that no Operating System is really secure and that none of them have a huge advantage over the others. Other than the fact that there are far more hackers of all types (including hackers hired to steal) working on Windows exploits because that is where exists a huge number of unprotected machines exist.

And to the person who said they have never got a virus, I really don't believe you.And the person who said that they have never had a virus on their desktop, I said it and it is true, that doesn't mean that no system in my home hasn't had a virus, now that wouldn't be true, because I run my own web server and e-mail server, and I can guarantee you that they have had viruses delivered via e-mail. And my oldest daughter got hit via the WMF exploit on December 12th from a visit to an infected web site.

Just so you know, I currently have 10 computers in my home and I have up to 14 this last year before the kids started going out on their own. And I personally have never had a virus on my personal/work machine. I have been in IT for 33 years (I have used that statement before and some called me on using it, but it is there as just a frame of reference), and have worked on Personal Computers for the last 23 years and knock on wood, my desktop has never been infected. And the viruses that reach my e-mail server are removed from the SMTP stream before they reach the mailbox, by way of TrendMicro Client Server Messaging Security for SMB (which runs MailScan for Microsoft Exchange) at the SMTP interface (yes I have chosen to scan the mail two times, once at the SMTP interface and again when it reaches the mailbox). In addition, even with six e-mail domains, I currently get less than 1 spam e-mail per 10,000 attempted deliveries because I have been running ORF (Open Relay Filter) for the past 14 months. And I could go into the details of what I use to filter SPAM, like DNS Blacklists, SPF, etc, but that would just be boring.

But understand just because most of the hackers write for Windows is just not because it is more insecure that the other Operating Systems, it is because of many reasons and the lack of security is not the only reason.

And to clarify what I said above, I was talking about getting viruses on a Windows MCE system, not on a TiVo.If you had read my other post that I made earlier this morning you would have found at the END of the FIRST PARAGRAPH the following sentence, "I believe you meant MCE could have a virus, not the other way around.".

[tbeckner]

I'm another one; I've never had a virus on my personal machine at home or at work... "virus" in the sense of an infection, not just the presence of a file containing a known virus.

I'm amazed at how often I end up having to help friends clear them off their systems, and once in awhile I end up paranoid enough to install antivirus software and run a scan... but never had anything found.

The vast majority of things I've seen on other people's systems ultimately came from email; and the people involved are the sort who are constantly sending jokes and cartoons and movie clips and all that sort of crap to each other, so they're never paying attention to where stuff came from and always opening stuff they've received, without paying attention to what it is.You are completely correct. The people who get the most viruses are mostly (but not completely) people WHO DO NOT PAY ATTENTION.