CableLabs trying to block TivoToGo & MultiRoom Viewing?

[Justin Thyme]

TiVo intends to offer MRV and TTG on all content - but state that they're still determining what, if any, restrictions there may be on CableCARD recorded content to comply with Cable Labs. source- see answer to Q6 (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3649477&&#post3649477)

Unlike the latest Series II TiVos, it will not allow programs to be transferred from one TiVo to another in a home. That's due in part to technical issues, explained a TiVo representative, but mostly because of unresolved DRM issues. source (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1908898,00.asp)

Now, I am sure that Megazone is reporting this more accurately than PCMag, but the what the PCMag article drove home was that Cablelabs actually possibly have a legal case.

Now, as for technicals, my understanding is that cablecos use 480x480 vanilla Mpeg2's (post decrypt). Fine- maybe the SA3 has to strip some Cableco Horse manure from the headers or strip some nonsense streams, but Certainly nothing like transcode, right? Sure maybe they don't do downresing of HD to an SA2, or oops maybe Cablecos sometimes are xmitting shows in res's that don't match the popular DVD supported high and low resolutions that Tivo supports. In that case, you would have to transcode at a TivoServer running Tivo Desktop. So no immediate MRV, but you could basically background transcode all of these on the server then reload back to T3- so they would all be ready for MRV.

The big deal is the legal battle.

Why are we not surprized there when threat of legal action greets practically every Tivo innovation. Ok- I expected a fight over HDTV.

But over TivoToGo and Multiroom viewing of content? Consider any Standard Definition show that I can record on an SA2 machine from a cable STB- I can TTG or MRV that to any other Tivo. BUT if I happened to record the same show using a T3 box, then somehow I shouldn't be allowed to TTG or MRV it.

No invitation to ridicule such a stance. Let's just explore it. Does anyone known / can anyone here imagine the basis for CableLabs' argument.

But jeez- what about those

[nhaigh]

Does this mean a Cable card DVD Recorder (Blu-ray etc) is not going to be legal? That would be a device that can record the HD stream and make it portable - worse so than MRV.

What about the DirecTV MCE connection and many other inovations anounced. Are any of them legal?

MRV is at least locked into the account of the owner - its not like I can MRV to my friends TiVo accross the road is it. Surely that should make it within the real of "Fair Use".

[TiVoPhish]

From what I heard from another company, some of the MR capabilities also came down to home wiring being a partial limitation CURRENTLY... but I think mpeg4 was mentioned as a partial solution to that (going on memory here... been trying to absorb too much info in the last few days ;))

Don't doubt at all there's a legal battle too. Seems that's happening on a lot of fronts :p

[jfh3]

Well, if there are restrictions on MRV/TTG with the Series 3, then it's appeal drops considerably.

I'd love to hear more on this - can't imagine why CableLabs would have any say in this.

[Justin Thyme]

From what I heard from another company, some of the MR capabilities also came down to home wiring being a partial limitation CURRENTLY... but I think mpeg4 was mentioned as a partial solution to that (going on memory here... been trying to absorb too much info in the last few days ;))
No.

Not at all.

Not one scintilla of a chance.

That it has anything to do with a wiring issue or is mpeg4 related.

[nhaigh]

Well, if there are restrictions on MRV/TTG with the Series 3, then it's appeal drops considerably.

I'd love to hear more on this - can't imagine why CableLabs would have any say in this.

Me to. Without the MRV and TTG it's no better than the DirecTiVo I have now. With that limitaition I guess I may be heading back to Analogue land. I havent yet invested in HDTV and this may well be enough to make me think twice about it. MRV/TTG has more value to me than HDTV. It's those features that have me longing for the Series 3. More so than the dual tuners.

What if they have a version of the Series three that is only SD?

[Justin Thyme]

Well, if there are restrictions on MRV/TTG with the Series 3, then it's appeal drops considerably. I think that is exactly the impact the Cable industry wants this controversy to have. This is pretty much par for the course from themI'd love to hear more on this - can't imagine why CableLabs would have any say in this.It's because Tivo must have a CableLabs license to sell the T3.

However, CableLabs' legal team's interpretation of their rights may not square with FCC rulings on the matter. There will likely be several letters submitted to the FCC on this question. Luckily, there is plenty of time before next christmas season to work it out.

[TiVoPhish]

No.

Not at all.

Not one scintilla of a chance.

That it has anything to do with a wiring issue or is mpeg4 related.

From the way I read what I read it had to do with the fact the MR HD requires transfering a LOT more data, and if there's not quick way to do so, it becomes a real usability issue. As I said, it was in reference to another company so I don't know how their equipment works, but home wiring WAS an issue and mpeg4 was part of the solution -- I believe the difference may be that the way their system works is that one box in the house in a "server" and the rest are not.

But I really don't wish to argue with you again. I was merely making a suggestion.

[Justin Thyme]

Look- if you post something that is utterly wrong, I am compelled to correct you, otherwise someone that doesn't know any better might think what you were saying has some veracity. It is nothing personal.

[nhaigh]

Maybe they should look at streaming the MRV content in real time, that way they are not making a copy and there can be no issue.

[TiVoPhish]

nhaigh -- that is exactly what I'm talking about and what this other manufacturer is doing, which is why bandwidth becomes an issue, and mpeg4 part of the solution.

Justin -- nothing changes the fact that the file-sizes and transfer speeds become an issue the bigger the files get (and HD recordings create much bigger files). It's not utterly wrong to think so or state so. When mpeg4 is a model that allows for smaller file sizes, it's not utterly wrong to suggest as a partial solution if transfer speed is at least part of the issue.

[ZeoTiVo]

remain calm citizens - this is not as big as it seems
TiVo intends to offer MRV and TTG on all content - but state that they're still determining what, if any, restrictions there may be on CableCARD recorded content to comply with Cable Labs. source- see answer to Q6
Now, I am sure that Megazone is reporting this more accurately than PCMag, but the what the PCMag article drove home was that Cablelabs actually possibly have a legal case.

I agree that Megazone was closer to the facts, certainly he was closer to the people in the know, sitting in the back room of the booth with them and all.

and any cable lab restrictions would apply to the HD of premium channels like HBO or DiscoveryHD or what not - which guess what, can already restrict MRV or TTG via macrovision license anyway. That is all this becomes. ANd at 10 gig for one hour I am not looking to copy HD shows around all that much either. In fact this is a reason HD is something I can wait to get into. More horsepower will be needed to do anything other than record it to the DVR and play it back from that DVR. Sure wont be porting HD to a PSP anyway that is for sure

so this will not be a blanket no MRV or TTG for anything but just a continuation of the restrictions we saw a little of on SD HBO ocntent but HBO cares about the HD files gettiing around plus the digital recording restrictions can not be defeated by a simple VBI filter on the analog signal so they feel like they did something restriciting the digital HD recording -
and this gets to how I see any legal battle pan out. TiVo has already worked with the FCC on MRV and TTG and the enforcement of restricitons via macrovision. The FCC has already said it is satisfied with TiVo's due diligence and I don;t think cable labs can add much more to that.

[Justin Thyme]

nhaigh -- that is exactly what I'm talking about and what this other manufacturer is doing, which is why bandwidth becomes an issue, and mpeg4 part of the solution.

Justin -- nothing changes the fact that the file-sizes and transfer speeds become an issue the bigger the files get (and HD recordings create much bigger files). It's not utterly wrong to think so or state so. When mpeg4 is a model that allows for smaller file sizes, it's not utterly wrong to suggest as a partial solution if transfer speed is at least part of the issue.
Precisely my point. Nothing changes the fact that the T3 uses electricity and the technical problem could be that the cord is unplugged. As we know, Electricity is a form of energy which is related to mass and time. Found some interesting reading here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity#Mass.2C_momentum.2C_and_energy). And this is all fundamental to Time shifting.

It could be a partial solution anyway.

The complete solution is probably to have Sci-Atl build the SA3 for Tivo. Besides their power cords, have Sci-Atl use their nifty UI too.

We as Tivo Junkies are all pretty sad this day, that Tivo could not solve the the problems with Mass and Energy coefficients. Did I spell that right? Ok, maybe someone technical can correct my partial understanding of the issues.

Too bad. The cable companies really seem to have this all figured out. At least to me.

[Justin Thyme]

TiVo has already worked with the FCC on MRV and TTG and the enforcement of restricitons via macrovision. The FCC has already said it is satisfied with TiVo's due diligence and I don;t think cable labs can add much more to that.
This was my first take on it. And I still think that is the case. But I really would like to understand the basis for the CableLabs argument. We probably won't have a clue until we see a letter to the FCC from Tivo or CableLabs on the issue.

I think it would be useful to narrow down the set of likely cases by excluding the unlikely ones. I don't see how any of these things could be affected by the controversy:

Any T3 to T3 transfer (both are CableLabs devices- if they are cablelabs certified secure, and both are paying service fees to the cableco- what motive is there for any objection?).

Any T2 to T3 transfer.

Any T3 to T2 (or PC) transfer that:

By FCC regulation may not be encrypted or have copy flags attached to them. (eg network content or anything else that is also broadcast OTA).
recordings T3 made from OTA

So what does that leave? Well here are the representatives of sets I can think of the remaining T3 to T2 transfer possible issues: SD Discovery channel recordings. (not broadcast) CBS HD channel (technical- the SA2 cannot display the resolution- workaround- downres on PC, otherwise ok to copy because it was OTA too) HBO. We all know about this. Content owner says no copy. SA2 can't copy it at all, so this is nothing new. TNT-HD Not OTA, so not covered by FCC rulling. Hoever MPAA does not want movies which might play on TNT to be copyable without restrictions.What else could CableLabs be concerned with.

[gastrof]

This whole thing, especially the multi-room thing, is moronic.

"Yes, if you have more than one TiVo in your home and record the same thing on all of them, we'll let you watch the content in various rooms, but don't you DARE move it from one TiVo to another so you can watch it in another room. That wouldn't be right. Please don't confuse us with references to moving a VHS tape from a machine in one room to another. We haven't figured out a counter-argument and will be sorely miffed if you do."

Some people need a hobby.

[TiVoPhish]

Precisely my point. Nothing changes the fact that the T3 uses electricity and the technical problem could be that the cord is unplugged. As we know, Electricity is a form of energy which is related to mass and time. Found some interesting reading here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity#Mass.2C_momentum.2C_and_energy). And this is all fundamental to Time shifting.

It could be a partial solution anyway.

The complete solution is probably to have Sci-Atl build the SA3 for Tivo. Besides their power cords, have Sci-Atl use their nifty UI too.

We as Tivo Junkies are all pretty sad this day, that Tivo could not solve the the problems with Mass and Energy coefficients. Did I spell that right? Ok, maybe someone technical can correct my partial understanding of the issues.

Too bad. The cable companies really seem to have this all figured out. At least to me.

Because you'd rather be arrogant you're still missing my point. First off let me quote myself in case you were too blind to miss it

Don't doubt at all there's a legal battle too.

Second, I alluded to the fact the other things COULD be factors as well.

Even if you're doing the transfer via ethernet or wireless, which would you rather transfer? A 5 gig file or a 1 gig file? A 1.5 gig file or a 300 mb file? Pretty easy decision if you ask me.

If the ability to transfer from one box to another is going to happen soon by any way other than ESP, file sizes on HD MIGHT be part of the issue -- and in all your glory you still can't deny it.

Thank god there are nicer people around here than you, that have more patience than you, that aren't all just trying to be know-it-alls like you, and who are actually willing to participate in discussion without being a condescending jerk.

[jfh3]

TiVo has already worked with the FCC on MRV and TTG and the enforcement of restricitons via macrovision. The FCC has already said it is satisfied with TiVo's due diligence and I don't think cable labs can add much more to that.

Yup, that's what I thought when the FCC ruling came out.

Cool.

Citizen remaining calm here ... :)

[Justin Thyme]

remain calm citizens - this is not as big as it seems...

and this gets to how I see any legal battle pan out. TiVo has already worked with the FCC on MRV and TTG and the enforcement of restricitons via macrovision. The FCC has already said it is satisfied with TiVo's due diligence and I don;t think cable labs can add much more to that.
Recall that the FCC ruling about TIvoToGo was not a definitive blessing of TivoToGo now and forever... but was in response to a dustup on the question of what copy protections were appropriate or OTA digital copying. The rulling didn't allow TTG'ing of anything you could record from any carrier, it covered recording of material that had gone out in an over the air transmission. This applied to cable transmission of the same feeds.

My understanding was it was specifically meant to address the issue of flags and OTA content, and that it didn't cover anything else. For example DT:

The ruling was specific to how the ditital OTA 'Broadcast Flag' should be handled ... doesn't apply to the premium channels ...

For digital premium channels ... they'll get their say later.

For example, if Tivo wanted to make a CableCard device they need to get 'certified' by CableLabs that they handle content appropriately. At the very least, they'd have to handle the various levels at which digital cable channels can be flagged (Copy Freely, Copy Once, etc.). Somewhere in there, CableLabs/Tivo would have to figure out how TivoToGo fits in ... and I'm sure premium channels will have some input at that point ... [source] (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2139377&&#post2139377)

I don't believe DT was refering to what a consumer regards as premium these days: HBO and Showtime, but premium in the older classic sense- anything beyond Basic cable OTA content- so premium would include Filipino channel, Discovery, Hallmark etc. I can record those using an SA2, even though FCC didn't say that I could. Does FCC have jurisdiction? If they do and Tivo could bring a case, would it be wise given Chairman Kevin Martin's "let's let the robber barons run it" inclinations.

After all- folks like John Rigas are in a better position (http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2002-110.htm) to make technology decisions, and it is in their economic interest to make the best technology choices otherwise competition would force them out of their jobs.

Right?

[Dan203]

Now, as for technicals, my understanding is that cablecos use 480x480 vanilla Mpeg2's (post decrypt). Fine- maybe the SA3 has to strip some Cableco Horse manure from the headers or strip some nonsense streams, but Certainly nothing like transcode, right? Sure maybe they don't do downresing of HD to an SA2, or oops maybe Cablecos sometimes are xmitting shows in res's that don't match the popular DVD supported high and low resolutions that Tivo supports. In that case, you would have to transcode at a TivoServer running Tivo Desktop. So no immediate MRV, but you could basically background transcode all of these on the server then reload back to T3- so they would all be ready for MRV.

A Series 2 unit will play almost any MPEG-2 format stream. It doesn't need to be DVD compliant. In fact the whole reason the DVDTiVo units can't burn programs recorded on standard Series 2 units is because standard Series 2 units record in non-DVD compliant formats. (audio at 32KHz and video at 320x480, 480x480 or 520x480) Which means provided the program on the S3 TiVo is in MPEG-2 format, and on SD resolution, it should able to be transfered to an S2 unit no problem. The only limitations should be HD content, non-MPEG-2 content (such as downloaded MPEG-4) and anything with DRM limitations applied. And when you're talking about MRVing between two S3 units, or TTGing to a PC, the only limitations should be programs with DRM restrictions.

Dan

[Test]

at 10 gig for one hour I am not looking to copy HD shows around all that much either. In fact this is a reason HD is something I can wait to get into. More horsepower will be needed to do anything other than record it to the DVR and play it back from that DVR. Sure wont be porting HD to a PSP anyway that is for sure

was that you giving the thumbs up in the other thread?

all those torrents flying around that are under a gig look really good for being super compressed and almost all say HD, how is that done?

[Justin Thyme]

A Series 2 unit will play almost any MPEG-2 format stream. It doesn't need to be DVD compliant. I used the DVD reference because the list of resolutions on Tivo's page (http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv251080.htm?) bear a resemblance to the DVD list.

My recollection when I first started playing with goBack as that when I created particular resolutions, Tivo would barf on the file. I was idly wondering what if a digital cable channel used one of the resolutions. I don't know that they do use a random number of resoultions, but I could see that if they did, it might be a problem.

[Dan203]

You're right that they do have some limitations on the resolution, and frame rates, but all of the ones it can accept are standard for both digital cable and ATSC so it shouldn't be an issue. The biggest issue is going to be aspect ratio. One major problem I've run into with goBack is that 540 units don't like files with 16:9 aspect ratio. Earlier S2 units will scale 16:9 content into a letterbox like a DVD player would. However the 540 units just choke on them unless you tell it you have a 16:9 TV. However if you don't actually have a 16:9 TV the picture is all squished.

Dan

[Justin Thyme]

Dan- How does what I am saying about SA2's not going away sound to you? Assuming I could push SD content to an SA2 automatically, It seems to me that an SA2 would be a very cost effective choice for player of SD content captured on the SA3.

That sort of work only breaks down when you have a lot of HD content you want to watch on an HD screen in the other rooms.

But that doesn't happen for a couple years- in which time the SA3 would be dirt cheap.

Or do you think I drove off into the weeds again?

BTW- you wandering down to CES for a walkabout the floors?

[DCIFRTHS]

Well, if there are restrictions on MRV/TTG with the Series 3, then it's appeal drops considerably. ....

Not for me. The multiple tuners and HD are enough.

[Bierboy]

Not for me. The multiple tuners and HD are enough.Same for me...I could care less about MRV/TTG.

[nhaigh]

Not for me. The multiple tuners and HD are enough.

For me MRV/TTG are more important than Dual Tuners. My priority list is as follows:

1) Integrated Tuners
2) MRV/TTG
3) HD Tuners
4) Dual Tuners

You see for me if I want two tuners I'll get two TiVo's. I'm going to do that anyway because I have three locations I want them in and three tuners is enough - why do I need six?

MRV is more important than TTG and all the other Network stuff. I want to be able to record a program and watch it on any one of my TV's. I have no interest in pirating TV. Its not that I don't want to put content on my iPod, I do, its just that I'll buy a new TiVo even if it can't do this. I won't buy a new TiVo if MRV is not available, I'll just stick with my DirecTiVo.

[Gregor]

Same for me...I could care less about MRV/TTG.

TTG is interesting, but I only have one HD set at this point, so the dual tuners and HD is where I'm oriented.

Now how to figure out how to attach that puppy to 2 or 3 gig of disk :)

[dylanemcgregor]

Now how to figure out how to attach that puppy to 2 or 3 gig of disk :)

Hoping to be able to record 10 minutes of HD huh? ;)

[Justin Thyme]

It really is hard to believe that the cablecos would object to one SA3 MRV'ing to another SA3. They are getting their service fee, their advertisements are getting watched, people don't want to switch to Satellite because they can record HD on Tivo and have double tuners etc etc.

How does MRV injure them? It doesn't.

Without some indication on what the legal issues that CableLabs might be raising- it's hard to figure this out- I suppose we will have to randomly speculate until one of the parties sends a position letter to the FCC on the issue. Maybe DT and Megazone might give us some pointers.

As for speculation-I'd guess it's the MPAA's war against any form of copying. The trouble with their perspective is that with broadband, having a physical copy becomes irrelevant. For example, attaching a slingbox or any other streaming device to a massive store of legal content creates the same effect as having an illegal copy of the content.

I'm not kidding. Imagine a "Club" where everyone is required to have a slingbox attached to a Sony 300 disk Jukebox. The more shows played on your Slingbox, the higher cueing priority you have when you want to access other machines.** No copyright infringements, but because the DVD media is being used much more efficiently, there is a corresponding drop in dvd sales. So MPAA policy that biased one way based on the technology used counter to their interests. They need to analyze how likely the particular product will or will not generate more revenue for them regardless of which technology they use.

**Sure, we aren't there yet. You'd need enough sustained bandwidth for both you and any visitor watching your stuff. At least 1.5 Mbits. But hey- japan has 20Mbits in the home, and Norway near 100Mbits. The US is way behind due to absense of pro active government policy, but that will change with the political winds when Big Media has less control over policy.

[dt_dc]

Maybe DT and Megazone might give us some pointers.I've been mulling over a response ...

But my Redskins are in the playoffs today.

Priorities ;)

[Justin Thyme]

It will wait. BTW- the CableCard posts the other day really did a lot to further people's understandings. I for one learned a lot. Thanks. Enjoy the game. Me- I'm just trying to wade through all the Engadget and AVSforum volume of interesting info. Engadget had like 100 new items yesterday alone.

[jcricket]

MRV is way more important to me than TTG. HMO (or whatever it's called now) is more important to me than content portability. I wonder if Tivo could "get around" any restrictions by streaming the content from one Tivo to another rather than "copying" it. With a dual-tuner Tivo (like I have now) there is rarely a situation where I need to record three things at the same time, but it does happen (damn networks with their schedules). It's also annoying to set up the same recordings in three locations. What usually happens is that I want to pad the end of (say) two programs that start at 8pm and end at 9pm, and then record two programs that start at 9pm on different channels than the first two. With two dual-tuner Tivos +MRV this would be a no-brainer.

In agree that the appeal of a standalone HD CC Tivo, and the only reason I'd pay $500 out of pocket, is if there were basically no restrictions on the functionality of the unit. I'm guessing that the Comcast Tivo will have "limited" functionality, much like the DirecTivos have reduced functionality. If cable companies can also reach out and stop Tivo from innovating on standalone boxes, then the standalone box isn't a viable product. I'd rather just suck it up and pay some tiny rental fee to Comcast or DirecTV. Of course, this is an issue Microsoft and (eventually) Apple will have to deal with as well if they want to release PC/Mac-based DVRs, so perhaps I'm worrying over nothing.

Of course, the real solution is a client/server setup like the HMC DirecTV originally announced. A beefy (big processor, lots o' ram, disk, etc.) 4-6 tuner HD DVR with a multi-stream cable card located at the main TV watching location and "thin clients" (no HDs, single tuner) that just get streamed content elsewhere in the house. Or, eventually, if everything is available "OnDemand" from your Cable Company, who needs a DVR?

[Justin Thyme]

Well, Tivo doesn't have to fight this alone, because Microsoft is not going to roll over and play dead when and if Cablecard tries to assert the same position on MCEs.

What- I have a file on my PC and I can't move it to another PC because that would be MRV'ing? You think Ballmer is going to stand for such nonsense?

Intel went to a lot of trouble with Viiv to insure data security between intel platforms. Linux consumer machines, Apple and Wintel machines will all benefit. You think they built that sea of fluidity of protected data be destroyed by major players like CableLabs who wants to turn each device into an Island again?

No- I don't think the major players are going to sit idly by if CableLabs is trying to assert some general admonition against any kind of data copying type transfer.

And besides- to be competitive with Dish and Direct offering content for portables, CableLabs is going to HAVE to allow copying to them.

No- I see this as CableLabs asserting that the copying be handled in a controlled way that will not give rise to pirating, and will respect the rights of the content owners that the carriers negotiate licensing fees for. Mostly I see this as a proxy for MPAA interests.

It will be interesting to see how the key players advancing data fluidity (Microsoft- Intel & Tivo) will work together to fight these latest schirmishes.

Meanwhile other content providers on the Net- YouTube, Google, Video Bloggers compete for viewer eyeballs. MPAA just may stall themselves out of a market. Really like watching a two year old screaming about having to share their 200 toys with other children who have shown up at the party. Hollywood is not alone anymore, and this BS is only hurting them.

Anyway, those PCMag sentences were pretty weird. I'd like to hear more about it.

[ZeoTiVo]

I've been mulling over a response ...

But my Redskins are in the playoffs today.

Priorities ;)


not till 4:30 and My TiVo is set to record it ;)

Hail to the Redskins :up:

[ZeoTiVo]

No- I don't think the major players are going to sit idly by if CableLabs is trying to assert some general admonition against any kind of data copying type transfer.


whoa, slow down there Justin, No one has stated here what Cable labs DRM policy - if any - is.

We are working from
-what Megazone said was told to him by TiVo execs, that they want to do full MRV/TTG within the technical limits of HD and SD.
- a PCMag article that claimed TiVo execs said there would be no MRV/TTG
- the fact that Cable labs has the ability to work a license if you are using Cable card

I discount the PCmag article as not an attributable quote directly from TiVo, inc. I think it is inaccurate

I do not see that we can say yet that Cable labs is trying to cut off any copying or whatever. I have not read the cable labs stuff and was hoping someone would and report here ;)

remain calm citizens

[ZeoTiVo]

was that you giving the thumbs up in the other thread?

all those torrents flying around that are under a gig look really good for being super compressed and almost all say HD, how is that done?

;)

as for the 10 gig for 1 hour I was referring to the way HD will be recorded on a S3 TiVo. That is what we work with on the MRV/TTG to begin with. the stuff on bittorrent is what I would turn any HD I archive into for palyback via TiVoToComeback, but it would have to be something I really wanted and most of the HD I will watch would probably just be recorded and watched at the TV. Anything I was going to move to my smartphone or whatever portable player I have by the end of the year I would record in SD still.

[Justin Thyme]

remain calm citizensVoice of reason.

Megazone especially commented on the PC Mag treatment. He re-iterates what he says. Apparently the PCMag folks were clueless/loused up their notes/ son in the eyes/ bad hangover acid flashback nightmare.... whatever.

The Series3 is starting to hit the press, though there are some things in this article which contradict what I was told by the TiVo reps I spoke to.....The article says this unit will not support MRV - but I was told by more than one TiVo rep that they do plan to support MRV, TTG, etc.[source: see his January 7,2006 note (http://www.livejournal.com/community/tivolovers/tag/ces)

So it seems fair to assume we can use the Series 3 as the digital data collector for the home, and use our SA2's to play them.

Sure would be dandy if the TGC Tivo with that ethernet port had some high throughput capability and could do inbound transfers at least 3 times as fast as current transfers.

[DCIFRTHS]

For me MRV/TTG are more important than Dual Tuners. My priority list is as follows:

1) Integrated Tuners
2) MRV/TTG
3) HD Tuners
4) Dual Tuners

You see for me if I want two tuners I'll get two TiVo's. I'm going to do that anyway because I have three locations I want them in and three tuners is enough - why do I need six?

MRV is more important than TTG and all the other Network stuff. I want to be able to record a program and watch it on any one of my TV's. I have no interest in pirating TV. Its not that I don't want to put content on my iPod, I do, its just that I'll buy a new TiVo even if it can't do this. I won't buy a new TiVo if MRV is not available, I'll just stick with my DirecTiVo.

I find it easier to have multiple HD (and SD) tuners in one enclosure. I like the flexibility of recording two shows on the same box.

I agree that MRV is more important the TTG. If I had to choose between MRV and TTG, I would choose MRV in a heartbeat.

I think the S3 will be an awesome product - my only gripe is that it's not available now :D

[jfh3]

I find it easier to have multiple HD (and SD) tuners in one enclosure. I like the flexibility of recording two shows on the same box.

I agree that MRV is more important the TTG. If I had to choose between MRV and TTG, I would choose MRV in a heartbeat.

I think the S3 will be an awesome product - my only gripe is that it's not available now :D

I'd do just the opposite - TTG before MRV. I want to use TTG to offload recordings to free up room (to load them back for playing).

MRV (at least for the HD stuff) won't be as useful until I have more than one HD television set.

[DCIFRTHS]

I'd do just the opposite - TTG before MRV. I want to use TTG to offload recordings to free up room (to load them back for playing).

MRV (at least for the HD stuff) won't be as useful until I have more than one HD television set.


Good point regarding the MRV and HD. Although if TiVo can downconvert it I'll be happy :)

[Dan203]

One thing everyone seems to be forgetting here is that CableLabs only has a say over content that is passed through the CableCARD. Which means TiVo will be able to do whatever they want with programs recorded from OTA, Analog cable or unencrypted QAM channels. The other stuff will probably be subject to restrictions similar to the Macrovision deal. Meaning if the content provider really doesn't want you to be able to transfer recordings they can set a bit to prevent it. However if they don't set the bit it's free game.

Dan

[megazone]

Everyone should chill. :-)

My intepretation is that TiVo plans to provide full MRV and TTG, just like on the Series2, but CableCARD is new territory and since they're still working on the product they qualified their statements so as not to commit to anything they have to reverse later - not that it is likely they won't be able to do it, just that they're not going to make an unqualified statement that they can until they get more things finalized.

A perfectly rational approach - "This is what we're going to do, unless there is something that forces us not to - we're still working through the issues." That's my translation.

I think PCMag just took the cautionary statements too far and they became 'no'.

[Justin Thyme]

Eh- I like the skunk explanation better. He intentionally read too much between the lines of the responsible cautionary statements of the Tivo Rep, and expanded to make a definitive statement when there was no basis for the definitive statement. Reps come back and he stonewalls them, no retraction.

Why? Prediction is wrong- no one notices. Prediction is right, then he can claim- oh- I scooped that back on Jan 4, 2004. If you were reading my column you'd know.

"Journalism"

That's why it was a godsend that you decided to go and independently report at the conference. You really did a great job for the community, Megazone.

Big big thanks.

[DocNo]

You see for me if I want two tuners I'll get two TiVo's. I'm going to do that anyway because I have three locations I want them in and three tuners is enough - why do I need six?

I would be right there with you if the Tivo's were smart enough to do group scheduling - i.e. work together to handle conflicts. That is the biggest advantage of having two tuners in one box - automatic conflict resolution. Here's to hoping anyway...