CES 2006: DirecTV Plus HD DVR with pics!!! [Text View]

lee espinoza

01-05-2006, 10:12 PM

The unit videophile DVR owners have been waiting for. New details, including price and release date.
by Matt Casamassina

January 5, 2006 - Hardcore videophiles may have already invested in TiVo's high-definition DirecTV tuner, which enables all the functionality of a traditional DVR and added HD support. But most early adopters paid for the device knowing that it'd be obsolete in less than a year. That's because DirecTV has not only ended its exclusive license with TiVo, but has set out to make an HD DVR unit of its own - one that takes advantage of emerging new broadcast signals.

DirecTV's DVR, called the HR20 (or "DirecTV Plus HD DVR"), basically uses the original TiVo unit as a base and adds a couple of impressive new features. The box was showcased for the first time at CES 2006 in Las Vegas and we were on hand for an up-close look. Here's what we've been able to find out.

The HR20 displays both MPEG-2 and the recently launched MPEG-4 signals, which makes it immediately more attractive than the TiVo box. MPEG-2 is an inferior compression codec than MPEG-4 and as a result signals beamed in the former are larger, requiring more hard drive space to store. DirecTV would not divulge the size of the HR20's hard drive, but it is likely to be comparable to the already-released TiVo HD DVR. The HR20 is able to record about 30 hours of MPEG-2 streamed HD content. However, it is able to store more than 50 hours of MPEG-4 HD broadcasts, according to DirecTV. It can, meanwhile, store some 200 hours of standard definition content. The device is able to display images in 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i, but it will not be compatible with the emerging 1080p HD format.

Owners of the TiVo HD DVR have been forced to give up many of the added features of TiVo Series 2 units. The HR20, in contrast, promises to deliver many of the special extras of today's updated DVRs. The device features two DirecTV inputs, two ATSC tuners, one satellite in, an HDMI input, a component input, a composite input, and a digital/coaxial out. Interestingly, the HR20 also includes not one, but two Ethernet ports - we asked why, and a rep on hand said we would have to wait and see. It also boasts two USB 2.0 ports for future connectivity. The box enables users to record two sources from either DirecTV or ATSC - even at the same time.

That's all good and fine, but when does the HR20 finally come out and how much is it going to cost? DirecTV would not give us a firm date, but it did state that the unit will definitely be available in Q2 2006. "Really Q2, we swear," a spokesperson told us. Meanwhile, we're able to report some fantastic news for early adopters who picked up a DirecTV TiVo HD DVR. DirecTV reps confirmed to us today that the HR20 will be made available "completely free of charge" to select HD TiVo owners as soon as the former becomes available. By select, the company means owners who live in the PST or MT areas of the United States, as these regions will be the first to make the switch to MPEG-4 broadcasts. HD TiVo owners who live in other parts of the US can either wait a little longer for the same deal or purchase the HR20 for only $99 smackers. Brand new customers will pay approximately $200 for the device and will get a significant mail-in rebate, according to DirecTV.

We've snapped a batch of photos showing off the redesigned HR20 as it was showcased at CES 2006. Check them all out in our media section below.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224p1.html

tbeckner

01-05-2006, 10:23 PM

I noticed that the back of the model is not labeled and they are NOT using the HDMI connector!

And as noted, it will not be able to do the 1080p format that all of the new flat panel HD TV are starting to support.

Oh the pain of buying into HD so early.

RightHere

01-05-2006, 10:31 PM

tbeckner

01-05-2006, 10:34 PM

The details on PST/MST are incorrect, since they've already started rolling MPEG4 receivers out to people in the top 12 markets. I believe this includes NY, CA and MI for starters and only one of those is in PST or MST :)

Sucks that they didn't upgrade the hard drive capacity.

Are those 2 HDMI ports on the back (on the right side)?No there is a single HDMI to the left of those connectors, its the thin single one at the bottom with a connector that looks like it has a small raise lip on each end.

HiDefGator

01-05-2006, 10:34 PM

I'll go out on a limb here and bet that the HDMI port will work on this one before it ships. I guess Q2 this year it will be time to upgrade both my old series two units to HD.

Kevdog

01-05-2006, 10:35 PM

By select, the company means owners who live in the PST or MT areas of the United States, as these regions will be the first to make the switch to MPEG-4 broadcasts. HD TiVo owners who live in other parts of the US can either wait a little longer for the same deal or purchase the HR20 for only $99 smackers.
http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224p1.html

Huh? MPEG 4 is already being tested in the midwest and east and D* previously said it would roll it out in the top 12 DMAs first. Most of those aren't in PST and certainly not MT. This sounds patently false...

tbeckner

01-05-2006, 10:36 PM

I'll go out on a limb here and bet that the HDMI port will work on this one before it ships. I guess Q2 this year it will be time to upgrade both my old series two units to HD.Do you have one of the new sets that use 1080p?

HiDefGator

01-05-2006, 10:39 PM

No. I have a Samsung 50" DLP and a 32" LCD. And I can't see my wife letting me buy another HD TV just to get 1080p. But of course I will ask :)

tbeckner

01-05-2006, 11:00 PM

Huh? MPEG 4 is already being tested in the midwest and east and D* previously said it would roll it out in the top 12 DMAs first. Most of those aren't in PST and certainly not MT. This sounds patently false...Hey they can promise anything on the floor at CES, just as long as it isn't announced by DirecTV in an offical announcement, most of those floor promises have turned out to be VAPORWARE.

morgantown

01-05-2006, 11:19 PM

$99 for those with the HD TiVo in the somewhat East (and that makes no sense whatsoever), or $200 for "new" customers?

I assume that is supposed to mean $99 for us late adopters, really? If I had no been on this merry-go-round before, I would not think that was so bad.

vader14

01-05-2006, 11:22 PM

I was going to buy a hr10-250 but I will now wait. Only $200 to buy, count me in ASAP! Would be nice to get it before March Maddness......

flmgrip

01-05-2006, 11:42 PM

tbeckner

01-05-2006, 11:54 PM

i'm not holding my breath... and let someone else pick up the first units late 2006 and have them work out the kinks. i'm sure i have till mid 07 before i MUST trade in my 10-250. and hopefully by than there will be hacks available too to increase the storage space :)At this point, hacks appear to be highly unlikely for the DirecTV DVRs. DirecTV is more worried about DRM than giving you something you can expand, so I would say be happy with the capacity they give you or don't buy a HR20.

RightHere

01-06-2006, 12:51 AM

No there is a single HDMI to the left of those connectors, its the thin single one at the bottom with a connector that looks like it has a small raise lip on each end.Look at this (http://media.gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224/img_3300804.html) picture. The one on the top also looks like it could be an HDMI connector. Hard to tell really. Someone get this guy a tripod!! :)

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 01:00 AM

Look at this (http://media.gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224/img_3300804.html) picture. The one on the top also looks like it could be an HDMI connector. Hard to tell really. Someone get this guy a tripod!! :)Actually the top one looks like another USB because it doesn't have the HDMI curled lips, like the one at the bottom, which is a HDMI.

The one at the bottom has the Ethernet and USB connector to the right and a S-Video to the left. There is NO doubt that it is the HDMI because of the raised lips on the bottom left and right. There is NO dount that the one on the top above and slightly to the right is not a HDMI connector, even with it being blurred.

RightHere

01-06-2006, 01:28 AM

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 01:44 AM

Yes, there is doubt. :)

To me it looks like the connector on the top could have the same shape as an HDMI connector (except compared to the other one, it's upside down).

But I think you might be right, since there are supposed to be two USB ports on the thing "for future expansion".

I'm sure they'll change the layout of the box before it ships, but hopefully someone can snap a better pic of the back of this thing to clear up the confusion.Actually it is not a HDMI, but is likely an eSATA connector. There is ZERO need for a second HDMI connector on any DVR, but there is a need for an eSATA connector, since the "HR20" will not have expandable recording/storage capacity without an eSATA connector. And the Series 3 SA TiVo has a Ethernet Connector, 2 USB Connectors, and an eSATA Connector for recording/storage capacity expansion. (eSATA is the external flavor of SATA (Serial ATA), which Seagate announced a 500GB (1/2 Terabyte) eSATA drive at CES.)

Jolly1

01-06-2006, 02:20 AM

And as noted, it will not be able to do the 1080p format that all of the new flat panel HD TV are starting to support.

Oh the pain of buying into HD so early.
As it's not likely that 1080p will make it to broadcast or sat for a very long time, if ever, does this really matter?

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 02:42 AM

As it's not likely that 1080p will make it to broadcast or sat for a very long time, if ever, does this really matter?Actually my real point of contention is that as soon as you buy into HD, they turn around and make what you have second best. I doubt that either of us have the real information on when 1080p will actually become a standard. Even though we are at the start of the MPEG4 era, I wonder how log it will be before MPEG4 is replaced, agreed that DirecTV will NOT likely dump their MPEG4 satellites anytime soon, just like they will not likely dump their MPEG2(not full MPEG2) satellites anytime soon either. But in a digital world, the 1080p standard will not take long to replace 1080i as a standard. Currently there is very little HD equipment that has been sold, although in the next few years that will likely change as the prices of LCD TV's should drop almost in half this next year and the Plasma TV's that people bought three years ago will start dying, but as a standard 1080p will replace 1080i very quickly and will be adopted in the broadcast standard just as fast. Take note, look at the specifications next Christmas and I doubt that you will find very many TV's that will not be able to support 1080p and broadcasters will be upgrading to meet that level of performance.

So, oh the pain of buying into HD early in the development cycle.

HiDefGator

01-06-2006, 02:50 AM

Heck even 720p is so much better than 480i I could live with it for a long time before being depressed that I can't do 1080p.

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 03:11 AM

Heck even 720p is so much better than 480i I could live with it for a long time before being depressed that I can't do 1080p.Who said you should be depressed, I didn't!

What I was pointing out that even though in the past I was an early adopter (Betamax in 1976 before VHS), I cannot find any compelling reason to invest in HD while there is so very little HD equipment delivered and what equipment that is being marketed is changing so rapidly that it makes little sense to buy.

Look at the DirecTV TiVo HD users who likely have to purchase a replacement DVR in the next year, after paying $1000 just a year ago. The same goes for Plasma TV users who likely had no idea that the lifespan of a Plasma Tv was not much more than three years.

By 2009 (in 3 years), there should be a wealth of HD equipment and the standard should be a little more stabilized, since that will be a far larger percentage of delivered and deployed HD equipment.

Don’t get depressed because your TV cannot do 1080p.

You realize that 56% of current HD users don’t even watch HD content on their units (New York Times article this morning), and that the HD channels deliver less than 50% of actual HD content (a lot of delivered HD content is up converted SD content), that for me it just doesn’t make sense to spend the money to only watch some of my investment be devalued by huge decreases in pricing, large changes in the performance of the equipment, and changes made to the HD standard that might require the purchase or re-purchase for upgrades. And then after all of that you realize that less than 25% of the content I currently watch will not be broadcasted in native a HD format for very many years.

Mark W

01-06-2006, 07:07 AM

I wonder if this one has a Native format output that the HDTivo lacks? The pricing information is certainly good news... until they spring on us that it requires a 4 year commitment :)

Oknarf

01-06-2006, 07:14 AM

..Owners of the TiVo HD DVR have been forced to give up many of the added features of TiVo Series 2 units. The HR20, in contrast, promises to deliver many of the special extras of today's updated DVRs...

That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

Bite me D*!

Lee L

01-06-2006, 07:56 AM

January 5, 2006 - Hardcore videophiles may have already invested in TiVo's high-definition DirecTV tuner, which enables all the functionality of a traditional DVR and added HD support. But most early adopters paid for the device knowing that it'd be obsolete in less than a year. That's because DirecTV has not only ended its exclusive license with TiVo, but has set out to make an HD DVR unit of its own - one that takes advantage of emerging new broadcast signals.

This is absolute BS. All of the early adopters had no reason at all to think this unit would be made obsolete as there was no talk of MPEG 4 or the new HD strategy for several months after this thing was available, not to mention the several months/years before it was available that people were waiting for it.

Even people who buy it now, unless they are on this or one of a few other internet boards have no reason to know it is obsolete even now.

I just have to wonder if this is the press just lapping up the D* press release without actual research or knowlege or if they are just stupid.

Now, the pice points they are talking are attractive, but the Series 3 sure looks good as well.

emeril2k1

01-06-2006, 08:13 AM

"The unit videophile DVR owners have been waiting for." :rolleyes:

The unit we've been waiting for is sitting in the TIVO booth at CES, the Series 3. :D

stevel

01-06-2006, 08:36 AM

The text of the article sounds as if it were written by Rupert himself. The only reason we don't have all the nifty TiVo networking features is that Rupert didn't want us to have them.

I must say that it will be interesting to see how this plays out. The new Series 3 looks like a dynamite box, and TiVo's networking features are an attraction. What will D* counter with?

ebonovic

01-06-2006, 08:41 AM

Nice...... But... Discussion of this unit should be moved to... www.dbstalk.com

:D

Billy66

01-06-2006, 08:55 AM

Also, the quote concerning obsolescence is incorrect because it doesn't make the current units obsolete any more than the series 2 made series one units obsolete (I mean SA units). Sure there were features that S2 users could get that the S1 users couldn't, but it surely didn't make the S1's obsolete.

Those enjoying their HR10-250's can still use them the exact same way and although there may be a choice to upgrade, there will not be a requirement.

Concerning the HDMI ports, I wouldn't worry about that. They work on the newer units now and this unit's hardware platform wasn't designed by the garage hacks at TiVo. The software may be inferior, but the hardware is likely to be much more reliable initially. Having said that, HW can only perform as well as the SW directs it.

tbeckner, you're funny. You continually speak about the CC TiVo that has been promised for an eternity as if it's a sure thing and now you want to claim that this unit is Vaporware. You can only use that logic one way, not both. If CES announcements and demos hold little meaning, the same is true for the CCTiVo. I think they'll both make it this spring and will likely be released within 45 days of one another.

SpacemanSpiff

01-06-2006, 08:55 AM

Thwack!

ebonovic

01-06-2006, 08:55 AM

Thwack!

[DUCK]

flmgrip

01-06-2006, 09:11 AM

Actually my real point of contention is that as soon as you buy into HD, they turn around and make what you have second best.

so the computer you bought half a year ago is still top of the line ?

Look at the DirecTV TiVo HD users who likely have to purchase a replacement DVR in the next year, after paying $1000 just a year ago. The same goes for Plasma TV users who likely had no idea that the lifespan of a Plasma Tv was not much more than three years.

By 2009 (in 3 years), there should be a wealth of HD equipment and the standard should be a little more stabilized, since that will be a far larger percentage of delivered and deployed HD equipment.

who says so. nobody knows when there will be a MPEG4 rollout worthwhile getting the new tivo. there is a good chance that the existing HD channels will stay MPEG2 for quite a while. and before i get an MPEG4, i want to see content. more than the big 4, which right now i can get OTA and via D*

you wait till 09, but i want to watch HD now. and my "obsolete" HDTV i bought 2 years ago (As an early adopter) will be at the end of it's natural cycle anyway.

and the 10-250 is anything but obsolete. it will work in five years from now or i will be able to swap it for free or close to free.

flmgrip

01-06-2006, 09:15 AM

, but as a standard 1080p will replace 1080i very quickly and will be adopted in the broadcast standard just as fast. Take note, look at the specifications next Christmas and I doubt that you will find very many TV's that will not be able to support 1080p and broadcasters will be upgrading to meet that level of performance.
.

oh you mean just as quickly as they started broadcasting 720p format ? :rolleyes: right now these "quick" broadcaster are only broadcasting about 10% in 720p... so i am sure 1080p will be widley avaible by next x-mas... not

emeril2k1

01-06-2006, 09:21 AM

tbeckner, you're funny. You continually speak about the CC TiVo that has been promised for an eternity as if it's a sure thing and now you want to claim that this unit is Vaporware. You can only use that logic one way, not both. If CES announcements and demos hold little meaning, the same is true for the CCTiVo. I think they'll both make it this spring and will likely be released within 45 days of one another.

In his defense, the Series 3 looks much closer to a ready to Manufacture unit than the HR20 does.

Or is that just the quality we can expect from NDS or whoever builds those generic PVRs?

ebonovic

01-06-2006, 09:23 AM

tivoupgrade

01-06-2006, 09:33 AM

The unit videophile DVR owners have been waiting for. New details, including price and release date.
by Matt Casamassina

DirecTV's DVR, called the HR20 (or "DirecTV Plus HD DVR"), basically uses the original TiVo unit as a base and adds a couple of impressive new features. The box was showcased for the first time at CES 2006 in Las Vegas and we were on hand for an up-close look. Here's what we've been able to find out.

Oh really, Matt?

I'm sure the TiVo folks would be happy to know that you are further confusing the marketplace by describing a DirecTV Plus box as a "TiVo with impressive new features."

This is no more the unit videophile DVR owners have been waiting for than it is a TiVo.

Hey wait a minute, is this even posted in the right forum?

minorthr

01-06-2006, 09:34 AM

Note: Also... The Series 3 TiVo relies on one VERY important piece..... The CableCards...
What if the Series 3 is ready, but the CableCards are not by the major Cable companies?

I could be mistaken but haven't cable cards been available for months. The Series 3 is designed to take 2 of the current generation cards to give you dual tuners or one of the new 2.0 multi stream that are not out yet to give you dual tuners.

ebonovic

01-06-2006, 09:40 AM

ebonovic

01-06-2006, 09:43 AM

Oh really, Matt?

I'm sure the TiVo folks would be happy to know that you are further confusing the marketplace by describing a DirecTV Plus box as a "TiVo with impressive new features."

....
Hey wait a minute, is this even posted in the right forum?

Just like every other Vendor out there....
Get our DVR... Just like TiVo... but better (that is nearly every advertisement I hear now adays).

The Word TiVo is the new "Xerox" or "Klenex" or "RollerBlade"

As for the Right forum... You are correct.

www.dbstalk.com please

Billy Bob Boy

01-06-2006, 10:12 AM

Planned obsolesecnce is a fact of the times. Right now they have mpeg 5 and 6 waiting untill they sell enough of the hr20's Than they release the Hr30 and 40 for only a 100 buck upgrade. I am happy with my 32 inch sony sd and will be so untill ALL the channels are HD and the lcd tvs are 500 and the lateset hd dvrs are free with rebate. I was fooled into buying tivo at the beggining for 600 dollars and all the claims of recording 5 shows at once(Acording to circuit city employees 5 years ago) Like the "Who" song "I wont be fooled again!" Like a previous poster said Lets see where this magilla is at in 2009!

Kanyon71

01-06-2006, 10:17 AM

Who said you should be depressed, I didn't!

What I was pointing out that even though in the past I was an early adopter (Betamax in 1976 before VHS), I cannot find any compelling reason to invest in HD while there is so very little HD equipment delivered and what equipment that is being marketed is changing so rapidly that it makes little sense to buy.

Look at the DirecTV TiVo HD users who likely have to purchase a replacement DVR in the next year, after paying $1000 just a year ago. The same goes for Plasma TV users who likely had no idea that the lifespan of a Plasma Tv was not much more than three years.

By 2009 (in 3 years), there should be a wealth of HD equipment and the standard should be a little more stabilized, since that will be a far larger percentage of delivered and deployed HD equipment.

Don’t get depressed because your TV cannot do 1080p.

You realize that 56% of current HD users don’t even watch HD content on their units (New York Times article this morning), and that the HD channels deliver less than 50% of actual HD content (a lot of delivered HD content is up converted SD content), that for me it just doesn’t make sense to spend the money to only watch some of my investment be devalued by huge decreases in pricing, large changes in the performance of the equipment, and changes made to the HD standard that might require the purchase or re-purchase for upgrades. And then after all of that you realize that less than 25% of the content I currently watch will not be broadcasted in native a HD format for very many years.

Not trying to pick here but are you still using BetaMax and an 8086? Technology is an ever changing thing. you buy something and something better will come out. 1080P? Who is to say that they won't have some Enhanced version of it 6mos later?

Things will always continue to get better, you need to decide is whats out there good enough for me or do I need to wait. Heck you a PC now and it's outdated the week you get it home, yet this doesn't stop people from buying them. It's not whats the best it's whats good enough for us.

Fofer

01-06-2006, 10:18 AM

Two Ethernet ports? Hmm. I'm wondering what that's all about? A pass-through to easily share broadband with the house?

ebonovic

01-06-2006, 10:20 AM

Probably more like...

Mini-Switch inside, so if you have 1 RJ-45 port in the wall, you can connect it to the HR20 and then still have a port to hook to say your XBOX360 or any other network device, without having to install a switch/hub at that point.

Or maybe it will support TWO networks... Private LAN for sharing content amongst systems and one "PUBLIC" Lan to talk to computers and broadband connections.

ebonovic

01-06-2006, 10:21 AM

Fofer

01-06-2006, 10:28 AM

Probably more like...

Mini-Switch inside, so if you have 1 RJ-45 port in the wall, you can connect it to the HR20 and then still have a port to hook to say your XBOX360 or any other network device, without having to install a switch/hub at that point.

Yeah that's what I was initially thinking... you just described it better than me. :D

Or maybe it will support TWO networks... Private LAN for sharing content amongst systems and one "PUBLIC" Lan to talk to computers and broadband connections.

That could make sense too. I suppose splitting features over the two distinct ports would also help them cut down on the possibility of folks sharing content over the "public" LAN (I.E. over the internet.)

stevel

01-06-2006, 10:49 AM

CableCARD has been available for most of 2005, but cable companies by and large make you ask for it, as they'd much rather rent you a box. It doesn't surprise me that Comcast, etc., don't promote CableCARD to their customers.

JohnTivo

01-06-2006, 10:50 AM

"Available" for months probably be... but the question will be... What is the TRUE availability from your Cable-Co's... Doing a quick gander on Comcast's Site...

There hasn't been "that" many Cable-Card ready devices (maybe TV's) out there up till this one now. (there have been some).

My feeling is that we are going to start to find that some cable companies are going to start to resist it anyway they can, as they are going to lose that $10 a month rental per box that they have tried so hard for the last 15 years to get back.

They may not resist as much as you think. From what I've seen, the cablecard can be rented for around $2 a month. For example, Adelphia's site has them listed from $1.75 and up depending on your area. So that $10 a month STB rental becomes a $8 loss of income. But from people switching to the Series three, they will neen two cablecards as of right now. So it is really only a loss of $6 a month. Combine that with the new subs from people switch to cable from D* or E*, and the reduced overhead on keeping a replacement supply of STB DVRs, I think they will come out ahead... just my .02 cents. :)

ebonovic

01-06-2006, 11:29 AM

When I was digging through Comcast's site... they said it was free.

But the FAQ.. basically the way it was worded... But you won't get this, and this, and this, and this... unless you have OUR box.

And they wanted to charge you an "Professional" installation fee for the CableCard.

Time will tell on this one... But my gut guess...
1) Cable-Co's Cable Card, may or may not play nicely with products out there
2) Since the Cable2.0 cards are not "standardized" yet (correct?), then some of all the new "cool" features, on CableCo's you will need their box...
3) Cable-Co's will find some way some how to ding you per cable-card (fee wise)

Time will tell, but I tend to trust DirecTV a tad more then my local Cable-Co (comcast)

ping

01-06-2006, 11:33 AM

I will place a bet right here, right now... that HR20 will be out before the Series 3 TiVo.

I suspect you're right, because TiVo will actually include a proper testing cycle in the schedule. :D

emeril2k1

01-06-2006, 11:34 AM

Series 3 looks "closer" to manufacture then then the HR20...

We have been hearing specks for the HR20 for months.

Now that there has been an actual product shown in usage.

I will place a bet right here, right now... that HR20 will be out before the Series 3 TiVo.

Note: Also... The Series 3 TiVo relies on one VERY important piece..... The CableCards...
What if the Series 3 is ready, but the CableCards are not by the major Cable companies?

I'll take that bet!

The HR20 is a mock-up look at the pictures (http://media.gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224/imgs_1.html), particularly the back (http://media.gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224/img_3300805.html).

Now look at the Series 3 pictures (http://www.something-fishy.com/photography/TiVoS3). Look at the back (http://www.something-fishy.com/photography/TiVoS3/inputs).

The Series 3 is Alpha, probably close to Beta. HR20 looks to be VERY EARLY alpha, if that.

Cable card is out NOW! (Maybe not everywhere, but I know 3 people at work that have them already.)

ping

01-06-2006, 11:36 AM

The Series 3 is Alpha, probably close to Beta. HR20 looks to be VERY EARLY alpha, if that.

Yep, and next step for HR20 is the paying beta customers.

SpacemanSpiff

01-06-2006, 11:36 AM

Did anybody see what the actual output of the HR20-250 looks like?

emeril2k1

01-06-2006, 11:52 AM

Yep, and next step for HR20 is the paying beta customers.

Doubt it. They probably haven't even started writing software for it.

Are the any pictures of it actually running, or is it just a shell?

classicsat

01-06-2006, 12:31 PM

I could be mistaken but haven't cable cards been available for months. The Series 3 is designed to take 2 of the current generation cards to give you dual tuners or one of the new 2.0 multi stream that are not out yet to give you dual tuners.

My understanding is they are due to ratify standards for CC1.0-Multistream middle 06.

The CC TiVo does't need a CC to work, just to access pay programs.
There should be some unencrypted channels on ones cable system, plus it will do ATSC OTA as well.

classicsat

01-06-2006, 12:42 PM

If there is indeed two ethernet ports, I'd guess one is for connection to your regular home network, but recorded content is not available on it, and the other one is for a special closed (perhaps gigabit) network for the HMC boxes to communicate with only each other, to relay content.

HogarthNH

01-06-2006, 12:47 PM

Yep, and next step for HR20 is the paying beta customers.

DirecTV does not use paying customers in beta programs anymore. All testers are DirecTV employees. Period.

Lame? Sure. Shortsighted? Yep. But it's what they're doing.

Doubt it. They probably haven't even started writing software for it.

Are the any pictures of it actually running, or is it just a shell?

I assure you the software is very close to completion -- at least as stable as the R15 software. While that's not saying much, NDS has put a great deal of effort into it. Certainly not "haven't even started writing software".

H

Kevdog

01-06-2006, 12:49 PM

Anyone want to speculate on what this thing is going to cost? Think they can sell it for under $500?

nelsonrl

01-06-2006, 12:53 PM

Well, it is going to be an interesting decision. Series 3 or DirecTV unit. Right now, my local cable company has a better lineup of HD programs that I like, but I much prefer the DirecTV HD DVR I currently use. I cannot get locals OTA in HD because of antenna restrictions in the home owners agreement so I am stuck with locals in SD and in a small market so it is a long time before I get HD locals from DirecTV.

Bottom line is that if the price is right... I will probably move to the Tivo Series 3 and cable card when it hits the market unless HD contect is added to my lineup.

ebonovic

01-06-2006, 01:05 PM

I'll take that bet!

The HR20 is a mock-up look at the pictures (http://media.gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224/imgs_1.html), particularly the back (http://media.gear.ign.com/articles/679/679224/img_3300805.html).

Now look at the Series 3 pictures (http://www.something-fishy.com/photography/TiVoS3). Look at the back (http://www.something-fishy.com/photography/TiVoS3/inputs).

The Series 3 is Alpha, probably close to Beta. HR20 looks to be VERY EARLY alpha, if that.

Cable card is out NOW! (Maybe not everywhere, but I know 3 people at work that have them already.)

I know CableCard's are out NOW!, that is not what I was leading too.
What I was leading to is that this is going to be one of the first high profile products out that will challange the new revenue stream that the Cable-Co's just got back... (Aka the rental fees of the boxes).

I am more intested to see what the ture "availability" of the cable-cards, when people start requesting them.

Guess it would be insider "betting" if I knew about the true state of what "phase" the HR20 was in....... So, I will leave it at that for now.
Surprised that the back pannel is "as rough" as it is, but I am still willing to layout there that we will see the HR20 during Q2-2006, and even to the beginning portion of the Q2-2006... I do think it will be about before the T3

ebonovic

01-06-2006, 01:07 PM

I assure you the software is very close to completion -- at least as stable as the R15 software. While that's not saying much, NDS has put a great deal of effort into it. Certainly not "haven't even started writing software".
H

From what I have been told.... DirecTV themselves has written the software for the new PVR series primarily from the ground up. That have used "segments" from SKY+ but overall have pretty much rebuilt it.

The DirecTV division is writing the code, not the NDS side of the company.

spartanstew

01-06-2006, 01:32 PM

Anyone want to speculate on what this thing is going to cost? Think they can sell it for under $500?

I think they can, but then again I'm the sort that reads the OP before commenting.

DirecTV reps confirmed to us today that the HR20 will be made available "completely free of charge" to select HD TiVo owners as soon as the former becomes available. By select, the company means owners who live in the PST or MT areas of the United States, as these regions will be the first to make the switch to MPEG-4 broadcasts. HD TiVo owners who live in other parts of the US can either wait a little longer for the same deal or purchase the HR20 for only $99 smackers. Brand new customers will pay approximately $200 for the device and will get a significant mail-in rebate, according to DirecTV.

morgantown

01-06-2006, 01:33 PM

Anyone want to speculate on what this thing is going to cost? Think they can sell it for under $500?

Check out the first post at the bottom. Free, $99, and $200. If that price is right and the unit works well, I'd guess they will move fast.

tivolocity

01-06-2006, 02:03 PM

I read a post from someone who went to the TiVo booth, that the T3 will support native passthrough. Has anyone read or heard if the HR20 will support native passthrough?

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 03:16 PM

oh you mean just as quickly as they started broadcasting 720p format ? :rolleyes: right now these "quick" broadcaster are only broadcasting about 10% in 720p... so i am sure 1080p will be widley avaible by next x-mas... notSo what you are saying is that there is very little HD content, actually a very good reason not to buy into HD.

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 03:22 PM

so the computer you bought half a year ago is still top of the line?One major difference. I can still use that year old computer to do everything it was bought for, but the HR10-250 will not be able to record MPEG4 feeds from DirecTV. Now that is a mjor difference.

who says so. nobody knows when there will be a MPEG4 rollout worthwhile getting the new tivo. there is a good chance that the existing HD channels will stay MPEG2 for quite a while. and before i get an MPEG4, i want to see content. more than the big 4, which right now i can get OTA and via D*

you wait till 09, but i want to watch HD now. and my "obsolete" HDTV i bought 2 years ago (As an early adopter) will be at the end of it's natural cycle anyway.

and the 10-250 is anything but obsolete. it will work in five years from now or i will be able to swap it for free or close to free.Again, the H10-250 will not be able to record or display MPEG4 feeds from DirecTV, and even though it will continue to function with the MPEG2 (actually not real MPEG2) feeds from DirecTV and for most people is all they recieve today, the equipment has been burned by DirecTV. And again, what I was attempting to point out, is that HD is still in a state of FLUX, and past equipment is being made Obsolete even before it is a couple of years old.

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 03:24 PM

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 03:47 PM

Not trying to pick here but are you still using BetaMax and an 8086? Technology is an ever changing thing. you buy something and something better will come out. 1080P? Who is to say that they won't have some Enhanced version of it 6mos later?

Things will always continue to get better, you need to decide is whats out there good enough for me or do I need to wait. Heck you a PC now and it's outdated the week you get it home, yet this doesn't stop people from buying them. It's not whats the best it's whats good enough for us.Actually I returned in the first generation Betamax (because it would not record more than an hour and they kept promising two hours, and believe it or not they refunded the full purchase price even after 90 days).

I guess what I am saying, I do not plan on buying into HD, until everyone else has paid for it development and deployment. As one current HD user pointed out in another post as a rebuttal to 1080p, he said only 10% of content is up to 720p format, which actually supports what I was attempting to point out, HD is so new and still has many major milestones to go before it is ready for primetime.

And I will wait for all of those advances to be made and the amount of actual HD content to at least approach 50% before I jump on the HD bandwagon. Agreed, I will miss out on a lot of NFL and College Football in HD, but I can wait. Other than football and maybe some movies, there is no real compelling reason to get HD. In fact, if you or I had bought into HD when 40 inch Plasma TV’s cost a minimum of 10 grand, we would both would be kicking ourselves when we see that 40 inch LCD TV’s are under 3 grand. And next year 40 inch LCD TV’s could be under 2 grand. Understand what I am saying.

And as I pointed out earlier, a PC I buy today will be able to run everything that it was bought to run for more than three years later, in fact, with minor upgrades over eight years, (MEMORY, CPU, Hard Drives, Video Card, and OS), I have machines that I built 8 years ago that are running Windows XP, abet slowly, but they run, and even run WOW. The same cannot be said about the HR10-250 being able to function with MPEG4 feeds, and it cannot even be upgraded, it’s just dead in the water.

But also, understand that I am happy there are people willing to pay for the development and deployment of HD, and willing to work out all of the bugs so I don’t have to.

aztivo

01-06-2006, 03:56 PM

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 03:58 PM

From what I have been told.... DirecTV themselves has written the software for the new PVR series primarily from the ground up. That have used "segments" from SKY+ but overall have pretty much rebuilt it.

The DirecTV division is writing the code, not the NDS side of the company.Now that is SCARY! A company who has never done a DVR (except maybe the "R15") before is writing the software! This may explain why the "R15" has some major design flaws, and the fact that it does not appear to be supporting all of the NDS functionality. Is DirecTV crazy?

ebonovic

01-06-2006, 04:03 PM

Now that is SCARY! A company who has never done a DVR (except maybe the "R15") before is writing the software! This may explain why the "R15" has some major design flaws, and the fact that it does not appear to be supporting all of the NDS functionality. Is DirecTV crazy?

Come on now... It doesn't have any major "design" flaws.

Design "differences" maybe, and a few bugs... but I don't think there is anything wrong with the "design"

Crazy... Nah... I just think they "listen" to what we all said about the Sky+ product have way to many issues... As programmers we all know... Sometimes it is just better to start with a clean slate and some knowledge, then try to fix, re-fix, reenginer something else.

Just because "They" as in DirecTV hasn't done this before, doesn't mean the people actually doing the project haven't done it before. Last time I we checked, we don't have access to their hiring portfolio...

It's not like TiVo just fell from the sky in the current form it is...

.... tbeckner (tried sending you a PM, but couldn't.. hmmm)

Anyway, have you actually tried the R15 or are you just going off what everyone has written? I can't remember if you have or haven't ( I know we probably covered this a few months back, but heck... I am getting old)

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 04:45 PM

Come on now... It doesn't have any major "design" flaws.

Design "differences" maybe, and a few bugs... but I don't think there is anything wrong with the "design"

Crazy... Nah... I just think they "listen" to what we all said about the Sky+ product have way to many issues... As programmers we all know... Sometimes it is just better to start with a clean slate and some knowledge, then try to fix, re-fix, reenginer something else.

Just because "They" as in DirecTV hasn't done this before, doesn't mean the people actually doing the project haven't done it before. Last time I we checked, we don't have access to their hiring portfolio...

It's not like TiVo just fell from the sky in the current form it is...

.... tbeckner (tried sending you a PM, but couldn't.. hmmm)

Anyway, have you actually tried the R15 or are you just going off what everyone has written? I can't remember if you have or haven't ( I know we probably covered this a few months back, but heck... I am getting old)You call the lack of two buffers NOT A MAJOR DESIGN FLAW and the fact that the one functional 90 minute buffer resets all the time. Both of those are major design flaws in the basic operation of the "R15" and those same flaws will likely be in the "HR20", if it is built by the same team with the same design.

As we both know (I have been in software development for 33 years), sometimes it is important to design from scratch, but only if the previous basic design has major flaws or cannot be easily and functionally extended. Just redesigning major software for the act of the fun of redesigning it is not what should happen. Redesigning can introduce new flaws and bugs and is not always cost effective.

Agreed we don’t have any insight into their design and development team, other than they released a product, the “R15” with some very basic design flaws, which is the best insight we will ever get. The buffer handling in the new DirecTV DVR is basically a cheap fix. And the two buffer flaw will likely not be fixed very soon. They might be able to fix the resetting of the current buffer sooner, unless it is at the core of their design functionality.

I knew you would attempt to support the “R15”, but you have to agree that from a pure DVR functionality standpoint compared to the DirecTiVos, the lack of a dual buffer is a major flaw. And even worst, the resetting of the live buffer on exiting to specific functions is another flaw.

Since we both have differently degrees of knowledge at the software development and design level we will likely always disagree, but then my design training goes back to NASA based functional design concepts and binary based functional array testing that eliminates almost all major design flaws (Although it is NOT PERFECT), and is something that is no longer taught in college.

I would say at least the lead designers of the “R15” likely never used a DirecTiVo before they designed the “R15”, or they would not have screwed up the dual buffer concept and live buffer reset functionality.

Additional Edit:

I pulled the PM from my profile when I was posting "Wal-Mart" posts that specific people didn't agree with. I am very Anti-Wal-Mart and I am currently supporting a group of people here in Bend Oregon who are opposing a building of a new Wal-Mart SuperStore.

Thanks God that I am not alone. I noticed just in the last two weeks that 20 states are attempting to pass bills to force Wal-Mart to provide better Health Care Insurance. Finally enough people have picked up on the fact that Wal-Mart is stealing from us in hidden ways to help promote their business. Enough said.

HiDefGator

01-06-2006, 05:19 PM

emeril2k1

01-06-2006, 06:10 PM

That is an EASY bet, since the CableCard people are their own worst emeny. And DirecTV has a closed system.

What does Cable Card have to do with it? It's done.

"Tivo has promised a HD-capable DVR with CableCARD support next year.

NCTA says: The Commission asked for a report on the “effort to develop and deploy a multistream CableCARD.” We are pleased to present the following information in response to that request. The specifications for Multistream CableCARDs and the Multistream CabelCARD interface are complete. The “M-card” will operate in a backwards compatible, single-stream manner with single stream devices (for example, in a UDCP); or in the multi-stream manner with multi-stream devices. See CableCARD Interface 2.0 Specification OC-SP-CCIF2.0-I02-050708, http://www.opencable.com/specifications/. Pre-Qualified samples of the multistream CableCARD will be submitted to CableLabs for preliminary testing in the fourth quarter of 2005, with the expectation of full testing and qualification early in 2006. It is expected that multistream CableCARDs will be widely available for use in commercially available commercial devices by mid-2006."

The HR20 mockup will be the one we're still waiting for at the 2007 CES.

Has anyone else noticed how Butt Ugly the HR20 Mockup is?

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 06:15 PM

I and I suspect many others do not consider the lack of dual buffers a major design flaw. In fact I don't consider it a design flaw at all. I would happily trade Tivo's dual 30 minutes buffers fora single 90 minute buffer. I believe the designer's listened to quite a few people with the same opinion as me and made the change from Tivo's design. Garnted they certainly could have done dual 90 minute buffers and made everyone happy, but a lack of dual buffers is not a major design flaw. Get real.But since DirecTV has decided that the lack of dual buffers is a problem and are promising to add dual buffers, then DirecTV actually believes it is a major flaw that needs to be corrected.

If DirecTV had told everyone to GO FISH, then that they would not be admitting that it a problem, but since they are promising to add dual buffering, which is likely going to cost the company a pile of money, then they are admitting that it is a major flaw in the original design. Sony would not add a right handed widget to their remote control unless the right handed widget was worth the cost.

And in addition, you do have to admit that the resetting of the live buffer when exiting to perform other functions is a pain the butt. If this was a TiVo that reset the live buffer when you went back to NOW SHOWING, don’t you believe people would be upset. You bet they would. Although the problem of the resetting of the live buffer should be easier to fix than the dual buffer situation, which could take sometime and a pile of money to correct, and it could introduce a whole pile of additional bugs.

Again, it might not be a Major Design Flaw to some people, except that DirecTV has really admitted it to be a Major Design Flaw, but committing to spending the money to rework the software to include it. Companies do not make major expensive changes to software unless there is a very strong compelling reason to do so.

nelsonrl

01-06-2006, 06:21 PM

actually your hoa can not stop you from putting up an antenna. It is the law that they must allow it

You are right, but I do still have to live next door to the people I would make mad by putting one up. What the law says and what we agreed to do when we moved into the subdivision are not the same thing. The reality is that very few of the conditions in a HOA can be easily enforced without a legal battle most HOA's cannot afford. But, it is my practice to obey the terms and I expect others in my neighborhood to do the same.

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 06:23 PM

What does Cable Card have to do with it? It's done.

"Tivo has promised a HD-capable DVR with CableCARD support next year.

NCTA says: The Commission asked for a report on the “effort to develop and deploy a multistream CableCARD.” We are pleased to present the following information in response to that request. The specifications for Multistream CableCARDs and the Multistream CabelCARD interface are complete. The “M-card” will operate in a backwards compatible, single-stream manner with single stream devices (for example, in a UDCP); or in the multi-stream manner with multi-stream devices. See CableCARD Interface 2.0 Specification OC-SP-CCIF2.0-I02-050708, http://www.opencable.com/specifications/. Pre-Qualified samples of the multistream CableCARD will be submitted to CableLabs for preliminary testing in the fourth quarter of 2005, with the expectation of full testing and qualification early in 2006. It is expected that multistream CableCARDs will be widely available for use in commercially available commercial devices by mid-2006."

The HR20 mockup will be the one we're still waiting for at the 2007 CES.

Has anyone else noticed how Butt Ugly the HR20 Mockup is?There is no doubt that the HR20 mockup was butt ugly, nothing was labeled on the back, and you should understand that I am a great supporter of the Series 3 TiVo, with its Ethernet Connector, and eSATA connector.

But you have to agree that the Cable and CableCard people are still infighting. The current 1.0 CableCards will not allow OnDemand selections and other necessary functionality that is necessary to eliminate the set-top boxes, which cripples the CableCard solutions.

The Cable Companies need to realize that they need the CableCard solution and they both need to work to solve all of the video delivery problems, not just the ones that they feel they want to.

Currently the CableCard 1.0 solution is a half-ass solution to the cable video delivery problem, and until they solve all of the problems and get the CableCard solution to function with OnDemand, DirecTV will continue to eat their lunch. AND NO I AM NOT A DIRECTV LOVER.

Additional Edit:

Do you know if the CableCard 2.0 specification will work with cable OnDemand functionality? If it doesn't then the CableCard 2.0 specification is just as half-ass a solution as the 1.0 specification, except maybe for the Multi-Stream capability.

HiDefGator

01-06-2006, 06:44 PM

HiDefGator

01-06-2006, 06:45 PM

You are right, but I do still have to live next door to the people I would make mad by putting one up. What the law says and what we agreed to do when we moved into the subdivision are not the same thing. The reality is that very few of the conditions in a HOA can be easily enforced without a legal battle most HOA's cannot afford. But, it is my practice to obey the terms and I expect others in my neighborhood to do the same.

Dude. Mount the dish on a 4x4 post in your backyard. Mine only stands like 4 feet tall and its completely hidden. As long as you don't mount it on your roof in the front of the house they won't care.

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 07:44 PM

There is huge a difference between a MAJOR FLAW and an enhancement request. A major flaw would make it disfunctional. The R15 is in no way disfunctional because it lacks dual buffer support.

A major flaw would be a power supply that over heats, or a software bug that erases the hard drive. Just because it doesn't do something that previous Tivo users expect does not constitute a major flaw. If lack of dual buffers was a major flaw then the beta testers would have all reported it and it would have been addressed.

If the R15 was only shipped to non-Tivo users no one would call DTV and say this DVR is defective because it lacks dual buffers. Lacking dual buffers is much like lacking internet support or caller id support. It may be missing currently but calling it a major flaw is just plain wrong.I wouldn't call dual buffers an enhancement request, because of the cost it will take them to develop it. And in any case I would say that dual buffer support does make the product somewhat disfunctional. In other words, it can not be used in the same fashion as all of the previous models.

And when you are talking about a power supply overheating you are talking about a hardware design flaw or cheap hardware, not a software design flaw. I have no idea what the beta testers reported or could even report and if any of them had previous DVR experience, do you? I would not assume that they could have any feedback that would let the designers know that the "R15" was missing a major feature, do you. But since it was not addressed prior to release, but has been addressed after release and since it will likely be a major change to the core capabilties and will again likely cost a bucket of money, companies don't make major changes to the core of a product unless they screwed up.

Funny that you mention CALLER-ID support, I wouldn't call CALLER-ID support on a DVR as being a major feature or function, I would only call lacking a major DVR function as being a major FLAW, but since you said something, I dropped QWEST One-Flex VOIP because the service could not supply CALLER-ID by NAME. In addition, QWEST said they could on the FAQ, now that was a major flaw, in addition all of their voicemails and call logs where time stamped MOUNTAIN TIME and there was no way to change them. All of those where MAJOR FLAWS, and in the case of NO CALLER-ID by NAME, enough of a flaw to drop the service the day I installed it.

But what are you arguing about? DirecTV has already admitted that the lack of dual buffers is a major enough problem to spend a considerable amount of money to rectify. DirecTV has admitted to the problem, what makes you think that you need to admit to the problem, before it can be deemed a major flaw.

Billy66

01-06-2006, 07:51 PM

Well, they said they intend to add it, they didn't say they acknowledge it as a major flaw. TiVo is regularly looking to add new features to improve the usability of their product without the admission that the previous software contained a major flaw. DTV is apparently doing the same thing.

nelsonrl

01-06-2006, 08:24 PM

Dude. Mount the dish on a 4x4 post in your backyard. Mine only stands like 4 feet tall and its completely hidden. As long as you don't mount it on your roof in the front of the house they won't care.

The dish isn't the problem, I found a place on my roof that cannot be seen from the street or wither side yard. The need for an antenna is the issue. My attic has a heat shield - each piece of roof sheeting is lined with a foil material to keep attic heat down so an antenna in the attic is next to useless. It still really comes down to who has the most of my preferred HD content on the preferred equipment in HD. Right now the DirecTV HD DVR is by far better than what I can get from the cable companies DVR. but cable has the best content in my opinion. If I can purchase a Tivo Series 3 DVR with cable card functionality, that may be enough to move me to cable. I realize PPV is not available on cable card, but I have not bought over 2 or 3 PPV movies in my many years with DirecTV so that is really not an issue. Bottom line, I think the new Tivo's with cable card are a real threat to DirecTV. There are potentially more options that will be considered than were available when I purchesed my two DVR's - which is nice.

Joe Siegler

01-06-2006, 08:31 PM

I'm inclined to look at this when it comes out. I've been a TiVo person since 1999, but I'm wanting to stay with DirecTV. My primary reason is NFL Sunday Ticket.

If Comcast would have NFLST, I'd consider going back there so I could have a "TiVo" again. But since NFLST is an D* exclusive, I'll be staying.

I'm sure the HR20 will be fine. How well it performs I'm sure is up to personal taste; meaning the software, and all that. What I've read about the HR15 tells me there's some things it does better, some worse, so it's a personal preference thing as far as I see it. While I've been a TiVo person for awhile (got my first one in May of 1999), if someone else comes along and does something at least as good, I'd be a fool not to at least look at it.

I am fortunate in that I was one of the people who was around when it was still possible to get a lifetime subscription for their PVR service, so I got grandfathered, and don't have to pay the monthly fee.

Also these pictures really look like a hardware beta. I seriously doubt the final product will actually look exactly like that - specifically in the back. Eveyrthing will get labled, and all that.

HiDefGator

01-06-2006, 09:03 PM

I wouldn't call dual buffers an enhancement request, because of the cost it will take them to develop it. And in any case I would say that dual buffer support does make the product somewhat disfunctional. In other words, it can not be used in the same fashion as all of the previous models.

And when you are talking about a power supply overheating you are talking about a hardware design flaw or cheap hardware, not a software design flaw. I have no idea what the beta testers reported or could even report and if any of them had previous DVR experience, do you? I would not assume that they could have any feedback that would let the designers know that the "R15" was missing a major feature, do you. But since it was not addressed prior to release, but has been addressed after release and since it will likely be a major change to the core capabilties and will again likely cost a bucket of money, companies don't make major changes to the core of a product unless they screwed up.

Funny that you mention CALLER-ID support, I wouldn't call CALLER-ID support on a DVR as being a major feature or function, I would only call lacking a major DVR function as being a major FLAW, but since you said something, I dropped QWEST One-Flex VOIP because the service could not supply CALLER-ID by NAME. In addition, QWEST said they could on the FAQ, now that was a major flaw, in addition all of their voicemails and call logs where time stamped MOUNTAIN TIME and there was no way to change them. All of those where MAJOR FLAWS, and in the case of NO CALLER-ID by NAME, enough of a flaw to drop the service the day I installed it.

But what are you arguing about? DirecTV has already admitted that the lack of dual buffers is a major enough problem to spend a considerable amount of money to rectify. DirecTV has admitted to the problem, what makes you think that you need to admit to the problem, before it can be deemed a major flaw.

I give up. Clearly anything that annoys you, reaches your definition of the term MAJOR FLAW. Thankfully your definition is not used by anyone else in the entire software industry.

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 09:19 PM

I give up. Clearly anything that annoys you, reaches your definition of the term MAJOR FLAW. Thankfully your definition is not used by anyone else in the entire software industry.I doubt that, I have been in software development for the last 33 years. And I have independently developed major industry applications for the specific vertical market that I have worked in the last 22 years. And if I left out a used function like dual buffers and created a situation where my product would lose its current data (live buffer reset) when any secondary function was selected, then I would not still be in this business for over three decades now.

If a major flaw to you is a completely unworkable product, then I hope the god that you don't work for any major software developer.

Again, we might disagree that it is not what you would describe as a MAJOR FLAW, and I am not attempting to minimize you,

But what are you arguing about?

DirecTV has already admitted that the lack of dual buffers is a major enough problem to spend a considerable amount of money to rectify.

DirecTV has admitted to the problem, so what makes you think that you need to admit to the problem, before it can be deemed a major flaw.

Kanyon71

01-06-2006, 09:29 PM

Rax

01-06-2006, 09:38 PM

There's some serious trolling going on here. :P

tbeckner

01-06-2006, 09:46 PM

Ok your saying this based on the fact that the TiVo has some Silk Screening on the back? Or did I miss something?I believe he was using the lack of labeling on the back as an example. The "HR20" does look unfinished on the outside. The "HR20" shown at CES 2006 was sure a poor example of a working model, and the DirecTV people should be somewhat embarrassed. Ultimately it doesn’t matter what the outside shows (other than a lack of professionalism), but how the inside performs.

Although, the CableCard is the future of the cable industry and the new Series 3 TiVo, the cable industry really needs to GROW UP. Currently the version 1.0 and 1.1 CableCards are too limited to serve as a functional springboard for cable industry and CableCard device growth. The one huge advantage that cable has over one-way limited bandwidth services like DirecTV is OnDemand, and current versions of CableCards do not allow for OnDemand functionality, in either a PPV or NON-PPV functionality. Which means to me, that until the cable industry solves that problem, they will continue to have churn problems.

ebonovic

01-06-2006, 10:23 PM

Gosh... I missed a lot going to bowling tonight.

As a developer (only 10 years but... 10 years none the less)....

A Major Design flaw is something that pretty much can't be "corrected" with out pretty much rewriting or rebuilding significantly.

Dual Buffers IMHO, Is not that. I think DirecTV underestimated how often that feature was actually used by people. Since the unit CAN record two things at once, which basically is nothing more then "saving" the dual buffers... All that "should" be needed ... "in theory" is a function to be coded in to let you flip between the two. Woudl be nearly the same as flipping between two active recordings (Which you can do, not by a single push, but by going through the LIST)

That is not "major" in my opinion from a Design perspective. "Major Oversight" maybe, but "design" nah.

Actually, can you point me at the press release or interview with someone "higher then a CSR" that admitted it was a "major design flaw"... I don't recall that one.

I know we have had posts from people "in the know", including myself, that they are working on adding the feature... But I know in my conversations with DirecTV, it hasn't been looked at as a design flaw... but more of a... we underestimated how popular that feature was.

And I agree with you again (three times in a day.. what is the world coming too), that just because the back panel of the HR20 wasn't labeled or polished, doesn't mean it is a pre-alpha state. But again.. .just because there weren't pretty pictures on the back...

It is not like they had a circuit board with wires going in and out from it tied to a piece of plywood....

The buffer reset when playing some thing from the list... That was a surprise to me, and do expect that to be fixed in the next software release.

Again: I am just more of an optimist I guess... with only 10 years of experience... most of that "fixing" "Design Flaws" and "coding flaws"... I just have a different perspective of things.

My specialty is re-engineering (usually from old undocumented code), and re-designs. (amongst other things (such as being a System and Development DBA), but those two are what usually what most of what my work boils down too) And of course... bug finding and fixing... (I hate that part)

And yes... You knew (and I wouldn't let you down), I would defend the R15 where it needs defending. It is not a perfect DVR, and my activity on dbstalk.com should point it out that I am not trying to hide or download any of the true issues with the unit.

It certainly isn't the POS that a lot of people are painting it to be... It isn't TiVo yet.. and in a lot of ways, I am glad that it isn't (But in some I wish it would get a little closer).

SpacemanSpiff

01-06-2006, 10:50 PM

I know we have had posts from people "in the know", including myself, that they are working on adding the feature... But I know in my conversations with DirecTV, it hasn't been looked at as a design flaw... but more of a... we underestimated how popular that feature was.

Which begs the question. With all the DTiVo boxes out there they couldn't do some market research to find out what people actually like and don't like about DVR's? Somebody really picked the wrong focus group to interview before putting out the design spec on that box if they underestimated dual buffered tuners.

IOTP

01-07-2006, 12:24 AM

My guess is, that the HR20 will have the"directv" DVR engine, and not the TIVO engine.

Shame, what a shame.

lee espinoza

01-07-2006, 12:40 AM

My guess is, that the HR20 will have the"directv" DVR engine, and not the TIVO engine.

Shame, what a shame.
Noooooo :rolleyes:

tbeckner

01-07-2006, 01:04 AM

That is not "major" in my opinion from a Design perspective. "Major Oversight" maybe, but "design" nah.

I know we have had posts from people "in the know", including myself, that they are working on adding the feature... But I know in my conversations with DirecTV, it hasn't been looked at as a design flaw... but more of a... we underestimated how popular that feature was.).It just comes down to a point of view and use of words and I can guarantee you that I have customers who do not understand that it is a "DESIGN FLAW", when they view it as a "MAJOR FLAW", not a "CRITICAL FLAW", but a "MAJOR FLAW" when it is going to take a long period of time to correct (not fixed in the first month or two), which equates to a pile of money to correct. I could as easily define it as a "MAJOR OVERSIGHT", but one that should not have happened when a company is attempting to replace a previous entrenched product.

A small part of my DVR design criteria would have included the following items in no specific order and I would have viewed the product as uncompleted without all of these. Although, this is a small quick list, I view these as major items.

Dual Tuner Recording
Season Pass Recording (with First Run selection capability)
List Grid (not a 1960's TV Guide Grid, I know I am bucking the trend here)
Dual Live Buffers (length 1 hour, with one button switching and standard controls)
No Resetting of Live Buffers (unless the channel was changed on that tuner)
Advanced Search Criteria (more complex than the current TiVo Wishlists)
Ease of Conflict Resolution (not something that TiVo has, but the "R15" has)

And I agree with you again (three times in a day.. what is the world coming too), that just because the back panel of the HR20 wasn't labeled or polished, doesn't mean it is a pre-alpha state. But again.. .just because there weren't pretty pictures on the back...

It is not like they had a circuit board with wires going in and out from it tied to a piece of plywood....).And if they had shown up with a "HR20" on a piece of plywood, then the DirecTV folk should have hid away for the whole show, or maybe labeled it DISH NETWORK/ECHOSTAR.

The buffer reset when playing some thing from the list... That was a surprise to me, and do expect that to be fixed in the next software release.).That is just plain sloppy but then again it could be a "MAJOR DESIGN FLAW", because they might be using the live buffer as a display buffer, or it could be easy to fix by not resetting the live buffer, only time will tell, but again very sloppy and could point to more serious problems in the future.

Again: I am just more of an optimist I guess... with only 10 years of experience... most of that "fixing" "Design Flaws" and "coding flaws"... I just have a different perspective of things.).I don't view the dual buffer situation as a "CODING FLAW" or a "BUG" it is without a doubt a "MAJOR DESIGN FLAW" that will take time to correct. And depending upon how they are using the "Live Buffer", the Resetting of the Live Buffer either could be a "MAJOR DESIGN FLAW" or "A CODING or INTERFACE FLAW", but that will depend upon how soon they correct it. I understand that three minor updates have happened to the "R15" since its initial release. If they correct the Live Buffer Reset problem within the first month (before February), then it was just likely a coding flaw, but if it takes longer and/or comes with the dual buffer rewrite, then it was a "MAJOR DESIGN FLAW". Time will tell us what the real problem was.

My specialty is re-engineering (usually from old undocumented code), and re-designs. (amongst other things (such as being a System and Development DBA), but those two are what usually what most of what my work boils down too) And of course... bug finding and fixing... (I hate that part)Maintenance coding and enhancements come with software development and the only time it is a real painful is when you find badly designed and coded programs and real bad assumptions and concepts. Let us hope that the original designers and coders did a good job, remember "The Mythical Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering", the 20th Anniversary Edition is available on Amazon in paperback.

And yes... You knew (and I wouldn't let you down), I would defend the R15 where it needs defending. It is not a perfect DVR, and my activity on dbstalk.com should point it out that I am not trying to hide or download any of the true issues with the unit.

It certainly isn't the POS that a lot of people are painting it to be... It isn't TiVo yet.. and in a lot of ways, I am glad that it isn't (But in some I wish it would get a little closer).I am not trying to paint the "R15" as a POS (I had to think of what POS meant), but I am with you, I wish it would get a little closer, because what if TiVo has a problem making it because of the cable industry, where would that leave me if my DirecTiVos died and my only other choices where only a DirecTV DVR or one of the cable industry DVRs, from SciAmerican, Motorola, or Moxi.

Oh God forbid, that would be a real disaster, so lets hope that the DirecTV guys get this DVR fixed and truely functional just in case, otherwise we all will have to suffer with bad DVRs.

tbeckner

01-07-2006, 01:10 AM

Which begs the question. With all the DTiVo boxes out there they couldn't do some market research to find out what people actually like and don't like about DVR's? Somebody really picked the wrong focus group to interview before putting out the design spec on that box if they underestimated dual buffered tuners.Do you think they even used a focus group? As I said before, the designers and/or developers had likely never used a DVR for any period of time.

danielhart

01-07-2006, 02:06 AM

I cant believe I just read this entire thread. Well, truthfully, I skimmed some of the design flaw arguments.

Anways, as an early adopter who has owned 4 HR10-250's for almost two years now, here is my take:

I choose my equipment based on what can give me the best available viewing experience given my particular circumstance. In my situation, D* and the HD Tivo was (and is) the best option available. When a better option presents itself, I will look at it, and act accordingly. Obviously this philosophy is not cheap, and it means that I will pay money for equipment that will rapidly depreciate. There is always a level of trial and error. But I know that going in, and I try to take that into account as best as I can.

What really makes me laugh are all the "experts" who wax prolifically about equipment/technology they either won't or can't ever buy. Their arguments are the height of banality at best and downright silliness at worst.

Well, I am going to end this post and turn on my soon to burn out (or burn-in) panny plasma and watch the episode of ER I recorded last night in glorious 1080i HD on my boat anchor/Tivo HR10-250. P*******************

tbeckner

01-07-2006, 04:09 AM

I cant believe I just read this entire thread. Well, truthfully, I skimmed some of the design flaw arguments.

Anyways, as an early adopter who has owned 4 HR10-250's for almost two years now, here is my take:

I choose my equipment based on what can give me the best available viewing experience given my particular circumstance. In my situation, D* and the HD Tivo was (and is) the best option available. When a better option presents itself, I will look at it, and act accordingly. Obviously this philosophy is not cheap, and it means that I will pay money for equipment that will rapidly depreciate. There is always a level of trial and error. But I know that going in, and I try to take that into account as best as I can.Here, here!

That is what we all do.

Some of us are just a little more conservative, so instead of buying into HD on the front-end, we spend our money on other toys and wait for other people to pay for the development of even better toys.

I made the jump from cable to DirecTV in 1994 because I foresaw the advantage of quality digital video delivery (now called SD) and back then SD was a huge jump in quality (compared to the local cable company analog delivery) and all of the content across the borad was improved. In addition, the quantity of the available delivered content jumped almost 10 fold. But today, the jump from SD to HD is not that great (better quality, but not greater quantity) and the price jump is even steeper. So, I have made the choice to not buy into HD, and I DO NOT fault those who have, because I really do understand the need for quality delivery. And today, more than in the past, I have a need for other toys (10 computers in the house with 4 children) that always need updating and expanding), which is why I am very interested in getting either a CableCard cable tuner or a DirecTV tuner.

None of us are all that different; we just make different choices based upon past experiences and current situations. I really am looking forward to buying into HD in three years or so, because the one place I would enjoy a true HD broadcast would be NFL and college football, but for now I will wait. And I am hoping that when the three year wait is over that the DVR wars will have proclaimed a true winner, the cable verses satellite providers battle will show a potential winner, and the HD equipment will have stabilized and the amount of HD content will actually be approaching 50%.

I bought into the Sony Betamax in 1976, 2 years before VHS made it to the states. But I doubt that anyone except the pure rich and/or foolish are going to be rushing out to buy a $1,800 Blu-Ray drive for the home this coming spring.

In fact, unless Hollywood puts the full screws to HD (or any digital content) over DRM fears; that in 2 decades or less there should not be any need for physical media at all. And all this infighting over HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will really be for not, except that drives may serve as a programmable interactive storage media for IT.

ebonovic

01-07-2006, 08:54 AM

Dual Tuner Recording
Season Pass Recording (with First Run selection capability)
List Grid (not a 1960's TV Guide Grid, I know I am bucking the trend here)
Dual Live Buffers (length 1 hour, with one button switching and standard controls)
No Resetting of Live Buffers (unless the channel was changed on that tuner)
Advanced Search Criteria (more complex than the current TiVo Wishlists)
Ease of Conflict Resolution (not something that TiVo has, but the "R15" has)

......

I am not trying to paint the "R15" as a POS (I had to think of what POS meant), but I am with you, I wish it would get a little closer, because what if TiVo has a problem making it because of the cable industry, where would that leave me if my DirecTiVos died and my only other choices where only a DirecTV DVR or one of the cable industry DVRs, from SciAmerican, Motorola, or Moxi.

I did some playing around with the R15 today (And I swear this is my last post in this thread about the R15 as it should go over to the other forum)

IF I am actively recording something (aka IMHO.. A Saving Buffer), I can go to my list and play a previously recorded item. Exit that playback, and the other program is still there with all it's content. But if you are just in the 90 minute buffer, starting playback clear's the buffer. IMHO... It should just be a coding flaw to either tell it to "retain the buffer in it's current state... be it paused or playback", vs reset it.... Again... If designed correctly as what is the difference between RECORDING and Buffering (other than possible writing to a different partion on the drive, and ultimately saving that recording)

Okay off that box for today.

I know YOU haven't said the R15 is a POS, but others have and try to grab onto anything to prove that it is....

Also...based on your list... with a few "bug" (my words) fixes....
The R15 may meet all your criteria soon (including the advanced FIND options... )

Billy66

01-07-2006, 09:01 AM

I have been in software development for the last 33 years

Please just add this to your signature so you don't have to include it in 50% of your posts. :)

flmgrip

01-07-2006, 09:07 AM

So what you are saying is that there is very little HD content, actually a very good reason not to buy into HD.

yes and no, if you want to be consverative you should'nt buy any HD. but that realy depends on what shows you are watching.

but if you are not buying ONLY because you think 1080P will have 720P outdated real soon than you will wait a really long time.

flmgrip

01-07-2006, 09:10 AM

One major difference. I can still use that year old computer to do everything it was bought for, but the HR10-250 will not be able to record MPEG4 feeds from DirecTV. Now that is a mjor difference.

Again, the H10-250 will not be able to record or display MPEG4 feeds from DirecTV, and even though it will continue to function with the MPEG2 (actually not real MPEG2) feeds from DirecTV and for most people is all they recieve today, the equipment has been burned by DirecTV. And again, what I was attempting to point out, is that HD is still in a state of FLUX, and past equipment is being made Obsolete even before it is a couple of years old.

right now i can watch and record everything. who knows when that will change. and will be worthwhile for me to upgrade.

but the same with the computers. unless you keep you hardware updated you won't be able to run the newest and best programs.

tbeckner

01-07-2006, 09:45 AM

but the same with the computers. unless you keep you hardware updated you won't be able to run the newest and best programs.Actually, I have a few computers that I built almost eight years ago, that have had small incremental upgrades to their CPU, memory, hard drives, graphics adapters, and OS that are still highly functional today, and all of my machines run the software that I use on a daily basis, XP Pro, Office 2003, etc. The kids have some of faster machines, because they wanted to play heavier duty games like EVERQUEST, and my wife and I have machines that are just four years old, that I run Visual Studio 2003 and 2005 on. But all of the cases, motherboards, power supplies, keyboards, mice (I personally still use a Microsoft IntelliMouse Pro that I started buying in 1998 and I will be on my third one later this year), CD-ROM drives, floppy drives, and monitors are all still the same on all of the machines from the date they where built unless they had to be replaced. I do have to say, that the ASUS P2B and P3BF motherboards (with Socket 370 Slot 1 adapters and 800MHz processors) are starting to get a little long in the tooth and I will likely start replacing the motherboards, processors, memory, and graphics adapters in those machine this next year.

So, you should realize that if you build/assemble your own machines from quality components, like ASUS motherboards, you can actually extend their lifetime for small incremental low cost upgrades.

What I was attempting to point out that with consumer level HD equipment, especially in the case of the HR10, is that to continue to function, you cannot make small incremental upgrades to their components and if you want to get HD locals (that you cannot get via OTA) you have to “THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER”. The same is not always true in the computer industry.

tbeckner

01-07-2006, 09:57 AM

yes and no, if you want to be consverative you should'nt buy any HD. but that realy depends on what shows you are watching.

but if you are not buying ONLY because you think 1080P will have 720P outdated real soon than you will wait a really long time.I am not worried about 1080p that should be fully resolved by the time I buy into HD.

Understand I am not saying that people who buy into HD at this point are making a foolish decision. What I am saying is that I have decided that buying into HD would be a foolish decision for me, based upon the way that I make buying decisions.

When I build/assemble a computer, I NEVER buy the latest and greatest and what usually is the most expensive of the components. I always attempt to buy the highest performance to cost ratio components, although there are specific trade-offs that I have to do when buying a motherboard or memory, because of possible future expansion considerations.

In other words, you will not find me buying a 975X chipset motherboard or an Intel 955 processor at this time. Although I might consider a 955X chipset motherboard and a 600 series processor.

It has never made any sense to buy the highest price components, because you pay a large amount for a very small increase in performance. Of course that is what the companies want you to do, but I refuse to pay for that initial release development costs.

tbeckner

01-07-2006, 10:07 AM

Please just add this to your signature so you don't have to include it in 50% of your posts. :)Actually it is in less that 1% of my 600+ posts and I only use it to put a frame of reference on my discussion to help explain my position. It is NOT A BRAG, in fact, it shows my age, and in today's world in the technology field having that many years of experience is actually looked down on. Believe me, people believe that you cannot know what their 18 year old nephew can know about computers, of course until their 18 year old nephew screws up, but then again that is another story.

I can guarantee you that I am not as good at GUI interfaces as some of the younger developers, but then again thank God that I don’t have to compete in that marketplace. Where my knowledge actually helps, is in using “COMMON SENSE” in trouble shooting, equipment selection, and in depth application and systems knowledge. But I CANNOT compete in the GUI development area, in addition SQL development came very late in my career, so I am somewhat behind long term SQL developers.

ebonovic

01-07-2006, 10:14 AM

I have learned a LOT from those that have been doing it for 33 years (or more)...

Never underestimate the power of first hand knowledge.

tbeckner

01-07-2006, 10:18 AM

Okay off that box for today.

I know YOU haven't said the R15 is a POS, but others have and try to grab onto anything to prove that it is....

Also...based on your list... with a few "bug" (my words) fixes....

The R15 may meet all your criteria soon (including the advanced FIND options... )And I am very sorry that the "R15" was dragged into the discussion. The real discussion started out far differently.

And I will be just as happy as any current "R15" owner, if the few "bug" (your words) fixes in the DVR are fixed soon, because I worry that the CableCard people and the cable industry will continue to drag their feet, which will hurt TiVo, and then where do we all go, to a Motorola, Scientific American, or Moxi cable DVR, I think not. ReplayTV has dropped out of the open market DVR, so if TiVo doesn't nake it in the cable marketplace, what choice do we have, a DirecTV DVR that currently has some real "Design" situations, which will likely be reflected in the "HR20".

So, do you understand my point of view. I am hoping that DirecTV corrects their "OVERSIGHTS" and makes the DirecTV DVR as functional as my DirecTiVos. Because someday the "R15", "HR20", or one of their newer models maybe my only choice, and I really do not want to have to give up too much.

JWThiers

01-07-2006, 10:26 AM

Although, the CableCard is the future of the cable industry and the new Series 3 TiVo, the cable industry really needs to GROW UP. Currently the version 1.0 and 1.1 CableCards are too limited to serve as a functional springboard for cable industry and CableCard device growth. The one huge advantage that cable has over one-way limited bandwidth services like DirecTV is OnDemand, and current versions of CableCards do not allow for OnDemand functionality, in either a PPV or NON-PPV functionality. Which means to me, that until the cable industry solves that problem, they will continue to have churn problems.
I agree 100%, but a Tivo in and of itself takes care of my Video On Demand needs (Timeshifting). Since I don't have cable I can't check for sure, but I think you can still call on the phone and get ppv. How many of you with hacked D* tivo's don't have your unit connected to the phone (no on remote ppv) and have to use the web or call for ppv? Sounds like the same limitations to me.

ebonovic

01-07-2006, 10:30 AM

So, do you understand my point of view. I am hoping that DirecTV corrects their "OVERSIGHTS" and makes the DirecTV DVR as functional as my DirecTiVos. Because someday the "R15", "HR20", or one of their newer models maybe my only choice, and I really do not want to have to give up too much.

Come-on now... let''s not start the Weekend by AGREEING again... that is no fun...

:) Have a good weekend...

tbeckner

01-07-2006, 10:53 AM

I agree 100%, but a Tivo in and of itself takes care of my Video On Demand needs (Timeshifting). Since I don't have cable I can't check for sure, but I think you can still call on the phone and get ppv. How many of you with hacked D* tivo's don't have your unit connected to the phone (no on remote ppv) and have to use the web or call for ppv? Sounds like the same limitations to me.Actually not all OnDemand on cable is PPV, in the case of my cable company, they bundle HBO OnDemand and the cost difference between DirecTV HBO and cable HBO with the bundled HBO OnDemand is only $2.25 per month (150 hours per month of bundled HBO OnDemand).

Although I have heard from a moderator just this morning that the CableCard 2.0 specification will allow for PPV and OnDemand selection, so that takes care of the problem with the Series 3 TiVo and cable.

I really believe that the NEXT major battlefield in the video delivery war will be OnDemand, and DirecTV will never have the bandwidth to compete. So, it was very important that the CableCard 2.0 specification allow OnDemand and secondarily PPV selection.

Oh, and I have three hacked DirecTiVos and all of them are connected to the phone line, but they don't need to be. I hacked them initially with InstantCake and PTVNet, and then added the ZIPPER, which allows them to be connected to the phone line for CALLER-ID and PPV ordering if required. In addition all three of them have MRV (Multi-Room Viewing), which has to be the greatest feature of all.

tbeckner

01-07-2006, 10:53 AM

Come-on now... let''s not start the Weekend by AGREEING again... that is no fun...

:) Have a good weekend...You have a great weekend also.

tbeckner

01-07-2006, 11:21 AM

I have learned a LOT from those that have been doing it for 33 years (or more)...

Never underestimate the power of first hand knowledge.Your reply is greatly appreciated.

I wouldn't wish age or any other type of discrimination on anyone, and I never have. But even in the most subtle ways it is hard to handle.

Lucky for me I have clients that understand the important of experience, especially after they have been burnt by the inexperienced.

LeeHarvey

01-07-2006, 11:32 AM

I and I suspect many others do not consider the lack of dual buffers a major design flaw. In fact I don't consider it a design flaw at all. I would happily trade Tivo's dual 30 minutes buffers fora single 90 minute buffer. I believe the designer's listened to quite a few people with the same opinion as me and made the change from Tivo's design. Garnted they certainly could have done dual 90 minute buffers and made everyone happy, but a lack of dual buffers is not a major design flaw. Get real.

Phrasing this as a choice between dual 30 minutes and a single 90 minute buffer forces a false dilemma. There are an infinite amount of choices a software designer (or architect;experience engineer; UI specialist;etc) around the topics of buffers/buffer length/user experience.

There is no reason there couldn't have been 2 90 minute buffers. It would seem obvious that they could please users like you and those who like the dual buffer approach with this choice.

They didn't go this way - and, as someone who knows quite a bit about software development and who also knows the general architecture of DVRs - they *likely* didn't go this way because of bad software (or hardware) design choices early on.

My own opinion is that the dual tuner abilities of the software were 'hacked' onto their existing single tuner software - and not very carefully - leaving lots of strange little problems people have described.

This doesn't mean they are evil, they just aren't nearly as careful as the Tivo designers.