Just a Rant - GRRRrrrr

[TiVoPhish]

I've been a TiVo owner a long time... longer than most. I had one of the first original TiVo Series 1 units to hit the market (and the darn thing is still running like a champ - mom now has it).

I'm a huge fan. LOVE TiVo. Have turned many-a-friend and family member on to it... turning them into equal TiVo addicts.

A few years back I bought a 16:9 HD-ready TV... and have become increasingly frustrated.

I do NOT want to go to my satellite company's DVR (Dish Network)... I have one already (on another TV in the house) and it sucks! It is NOT TiVo!

I have a long list of things TiVo has done right... but my list of things they've done wrong is growing.

...HDTV support for more than just specific providers with specific boxes. It doesn't help me that Direct TV has a limited TiVo box (I won't switch satellite companies, and have to pay and arm and a leg for a box that I lose features with!).

...limited Mac Support. I have multiples PCs in this house with Macs and Windows machines and would love it if I could get TivoToGo recording onto my iPod video more easily! And NO, I don't want to put iTunes on my Windows machines. And YES, I'd like to be able to enjoy TTG programs on my Mac!

...bad marketing! TiVo should be rocking the market with a DVR that is so much better than anything out there (IMO). How can it be that I still meet people who don't know what TiVo is after so many years?

...did I mention HDTV support? How many years before I can buy a stand-alone TiVo box that will support HD? I'm a die-hard TiVo fan for years now... am I going to have to give up my TiVo and move away from giving their company business because I get tired of waiting to take advantage of the nice HD Television I bought???

Maybe it's a technical issue I don't understand, but let me tell you, if they can make HDTV-ready televisions, I don't understand the holdup in making HDTV-ready TiVo boxes!!

Please TiVo Bigwigs... I beg you... come up with an HDTV solution. Sell your licensing or whatever to Dish Network or whoever will buy it. Get on the ball with HD! Yeah, transferring to my new iPod video would be nice and all, but have a fully functional, HDTV TiVo box in my entertainment rack is really what I've been waiting for!!!

Really, I say this all with love... LOL... can you feel it?

Come on guys!

[ZeoTiVo]

you need to read this forum more often


look in my sig for the anouncement on dual tuner HD TiVo in 2006.
Mac support has been posted here by TiVo employees slated for mid 2006.

You may reply you have heard it all before but if you read this forum once a week you would see that this stuff is coming. Keep an eye on CES announcements from TiVo. that starts up Jan. 5th


PS - of course how this fits into Dish network is something you will have to puzzle over a bit. The HD dual tuner is greatly simplified in design and lower in cost becasue the FCC has mandated cable cards to allow 3rd parties easy access to the digital signal on cable access.

Sat providers have no such mandate at this time and you will have to figure a way to get from Dish proprietary box HD to TiVo HD or else switch to cable

[TiVoPhish]

I need to read the forum more often to hear "wait some more, really, it's coming"... ? That's pretty funny Zeo. Would be a lot different if you told me I need to read the forum more because there were options already available... but hey, what do I know, right? Come on now... I don't need to read more often just to hear I'm still sh*t out of luck.

Does ATSC include Satelitte providers? I honestly don't know, which is why I ask.
And I'm not interested in going back to my rip-off cable company who charges WAY too much money for inferior service (thank-you-very-much) ;) -- Matter of fact, as soon as FOIS is available in my area for internet access, I'll kiss my cable company goodbye for good. My brother-in-law just switched over, so it's coming.

There's really no excuse for the lag with some of this stuff. HD has been available for quite a while now, and getting increasingly popular. You can't sell TiVo boxes to people who are already taking advantage of HDTV if you don't have one compatible with it -- and that's just a dumb business move... LOTS of customers out the window for good because they ended up with their lame cable/satellite company's box.

And the Mac support thing is just ridiculous. Had they timed it right they would have been able to ride the coat tales of Apple for a while and boost their sales. Any idea how long it just took me to do the conversion the "hard way"... too long to be convenient enough to use often for a lousy 1-hour show.

I make these arguments because I LOVE my TiVo... not because I hate it. Think about it... if you can't keep your fans on board, how are you going to sell to a new audience, or fight against your proponents?

You can't. You lose.

[Dan203]

I hate to break it to you but even when that new HD unit comes out in a few months it still aint gona work with Dish. It's going to be a CableCARD unit that will record HD from either cable or OTA ATSC signals. It will NOT have generic inputs like the current SD TiVos do today. In fact such a device is impossible! HDTV is broadcast as a pure digital signal. The only way to record it is to capture that signal in it's original digital format. Since Dish uses a propritary system for broadcasting their digital stream and does not allow 3rd parties to develop recievers there is no way TiVo will ever be able to produce a HD DVR that works with Dish. So if you insist on sticking with Dish then your only option for recording HD is to get one of their crappy, non-TiVo, DVRs.

Now if you're willing to be a little more flexible then you have some options. One of them, available right now, is to switch to DirecTV. The other is to switch to cable in 4-6 months and get one of the new CableCARD units. (TiVo is also working with Comcast to put TiVo software on their leased DVRs)

Dan

[ZeoTiVo]

I need to read the forum more often to hear "wait some more, really, it's coming"... ? That's pretty funny Zeo. Would be a lot different if you told me I need to read the forum more because there were options already available... but hey, what do I know, right? Come on now... I don't need to read more often just to hear I'm still sh*t out of luck. well if you want to rant about things that have been specifically slated for next year than have fun with that. TiVo has never before said a standalone HD unit was going to be released. This time they have said it will be out in 2006. But rant instead of read and then poke fun at me for telling you the scoop, have fun with that.
Does ATSC include Satelitte providers? I honestly don't know, which is why I ask.And I'm not interested in going back to my rip-off cable company who charges WAY too much money for inferior service (thank-you-very-much) ;) -- Matter of fact, as soon as FOIS is available in my area for internet access, I'll kiss my cable company goodbye for good. My brother-in-law just switched over, so it's coming. then I suggest you write to DISH network about using TiVo software. really how do you expect TiVo to make an HD box for a closed proprietary receiver. If you are going to stick with Dish you have to go with their HD DVR. There's really no excuse for the lag with some of this stuff. HD has been available for quite a while now, and getting increasingly popular. You can't sell TiVo boxes to people who are already taking advantage of HDTV if you don't have one compatible with it -- and that's just a dumb business move... LOTS of customers out the window for good because they ended up with their lame cable/satellite company's box. as noted above the sat and cable providers are not exactly opening up their systems for TiVo. The sat providers have pretty much shown they are sticking with their own closed proprietary receivers and DVRs. The main reason TiVo can finally think HD for cable is because the FCC mandated a standard open access for cable in the form of the cable card.

you are better served to start rants aimed at DISH and the FCC.

And the Mac support thing is just ridiculous. Had they timed it right they would have been able to ride the coat tales of Apple for a while and boost their sales. Any idea how long it just took me to do the conversion the "hard way"... too long to be convenient enough to use often for a lousy 1-hour show.

I make these arguments because I LOVE my TiVo... not because I hate it. Think about it... if you can't keep your fans on board, how are you going to sell to a new audience, or fight against your proponents?

You can't. You lose.

many here do not understand what happened on Mac support, myself included. But "ride the coat tails[sic] of Apple" To where? There are certainly a lot of Mac users who bought into TiVo early on but I doubt the lack of Mac support made a noticeable dent in the bottom line for SD TiVos. Looks like TiVo will time things right by getting Mac support back in time for the HD boxes. since the correct quote by Jobs is "This is the year of HD editing" If TiVo can provide HD content to a Mac and support the best resolution possible on the iPod video (both very likely in 2006) then TiVo will be miles ahead of any other DVR unless Apple anounces its own HD DVR at CES, which I think unlikely. I think they will continue with a mini that can organize and play all kinds of media and download it easily from iTunes for a price. and oh yah, we have some recording software we may do some more work on after we finish making iTunes the prominent store for video.

[TiVoPhish]

Dan,

If/when my cable company is supported by TiVo or vice versa, well then I'd have to consider it. That's currently not the case though... nor have I heard plans for it. Maybe that will change, maybe not.
And DirectTV is no answer for the reason I stated. Hasn't anything to do with being flexible. I'm not willing to pay 3 times as much for a box with less features (DTV is a LIMITED TiVo box, not a full featured one). Lets also not forget that DTV is going to stop supporting/offering TiVo pretty soon.

And Zeo, I was trying to be good natured about it above.

Your scoop isn't any scoop. It's something I've heard for a LONG time... yeah yeah, it's coming. Doesn't change the fact that some of these are things that should have already been available.

It's not just Dish Network... it's a LOT of other companies, and maybe that's because TiVo already missed the boat. Remember how Steve Jobs originally missed the same boat (the one Bill Gates jumped on)? I don't know what happened with TiVo or why, but apparently everyone else thinks they can make and offer a better DVR/PVR now, and while us TiVo users already know the deal, that isn't going to keep TiVo in business. DirectTV is jumping ship too. My local cable company offers their own DVR already... and if Dish Network, DirectTV and my local cable company (who I already said I despised) can't offer me a TiVo compatible system (or vice versa), what choice will I have but to jump ship if I really want to take advantage of HDTV?

And while you say I shouldn't rant about TiVo but at Dish and the FCC how do you know I'm not? Besides the point anyway, if TiVo is going to stay in business they are going to have to survive the switch-over to HDTV... they aren't going to do it because the FCC mandates it. Maybe it's a battle they can't win, I have no idea... and if that's the case, well it's just sad.

No, lack of Mac users don't make a "dent" -- but now that the iPod video is available, and a larger percentage of those people will be mac users (with mac sales up quite a bit), they are closing their own doors on themselves... and not opening themselves up to lots of NEW business that could be there. These are the kind of sales pitches in board meetings that help make a company grow. "Hey, Dish Network guys, we have this idea that instead of you going with archos we team up to provide a kick-a*s DVR that also had the ability to dump to the already widely used iPod (not some lame whoever heard-of-Archos system) ... and we'll have it ready to go the same day the iPod video hits the streets."

But then you get into all the hollywood guys who get their panties in a bunch about the prospect of people downloading their stuff for free cause they watched it on TV... *sigh*

HD on an iPod (at this point) is pointless. The year of HD Editing refers to the home film-editing market, widely available HD camcorders, and iMovie HD, Final Cut HD, etc. People getting HD onto their 3" iPod screen doesnt' matter. Mac Support does, whether it's HD or not.

And YES, maybe you should read more, because there are already lots of rumors about a Mac PVR/DVR, and Mac home entertainment systems -- "Described as a version of the Mac Mini, Apple is reportedly looking to deliver unique DVR capabilities in the Intel-based devices next year. (dec 2, 2005 (http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/MrhOTcw8CjrV3C/Rumors-Fly-of-Possible-Apple-DVR-in-Works.xhtml))"

[TiVoPhish]

ps. another quote for ya...

"We have all heard the rumors of an Intel-base Mac Mini being released in January. ThinkSecret has more information supporting that fact, as well as the possibliity that the new Mactel Mini will be re-introduced as a digital hub for the home.

The new project is codenamed Kaleidescope and includes Front Row 2.0 and a Tivo-like recording application." (Forever Geek (http://forevergeek.com/apple/mac_mini_the_apple_dvr.php))

[ZeoTiVo]

ps. another quote for ya...

"We have all heard the rumors of an Intel-base Mac Mini being released in January. ThinkSecret has more information supporting that fact, as well as the possibliity that the new Mactel Mini will be re-introduced as a digital hub for the home.

The new project is codenamed Kaleidescope and includes Front Row 2.0 and a Tivo-like recording application." (Forever Geek (http://forevergeek.com/apple/mac_mini_the_apple_dvr.php))


yes that was talked about a while back and is what I was referring to in talking about the mini really being more of a media player and front end to iTunes. "TiVo like" was used generously. The Apple software for recording shows is just not very advanced yet, It does not seem to be Apple's focus for the mini. I only used scopp in the broad sense of giving the info. My DVR info mainly comes from this forum and I have no illusions of being the first to say any of this.

And if you want to overlook what Dan and I both said that TiVo can not provide an HD DVR for a closed receiver such as Dish than have fun with your rant. The simple fact is that until the FCC tells the sat companies to open up their system ala cable card or Dish decides to work a deal with TiVo which is very doubtful - you will be stuck with the DVR Dish decides to provide with whatever features they have or can be hacked. Does it have firewire?

Cable Card is only now getting traction. So there was a very large technical hurdle to overcome and for the Sat providers it looks like the FCC mandating access is the only way you will get your wish of a Stand Alone HD TiVo for sat..

[generalpatton71]

I think many of us are just looking for a HDTV SA2 unit that works with any tv provider we choose. We all love our tivos and hate to be limited to any provider because they support Tivo. D* was the choice for many of us because they supported tivo and offered us great units like the hr10-250. Now the winds have changed and comcast customers are about to get a great deal. I have mediacom and am very interested in the CC tivo but I've already made a large investment with D*. So many of us would like to have a HDTV SA2 unit that works with whoever and whenever we want.

I have no clue, but isn't it possible to record something that outputs with componet cables?

[MickeS]

Had they timed it right they would have been able to ride the coat tales of Apple for a while and boost their sales.

TiVo sales are not affected significantly by Mac sales. Apple finally managed to get 4% of the PC market this year...the coat tails are extremely small... I'd say Mac is riding the coat tails of iPod, if anything.

When I read your rant, I expected to see that this was posted way back, since most of the stuff you're complaining about has been announced as coming out this year.

[nyjklein]

I have no clue, but isn't it possible to record something that outputs with componet cables?

For several thousand dollars, yes!

That's the whole point. HD Digital is completely different than SD analog. While it was relatively easy and inexpensive to produce the hardware needed to process and record an analog TV signal, it would be REALLY expensive and difficult to do the same with the UNCOMPRESSED digital outputs that are fed out of the component or DVI/HDMI connections. All consumer level HD DVRs need access to the compressed digital signal (ATSC for broadcast, QAM for most cable systems and some MPEG2 or MPEG4 for satellite). Other than the broadcast stuff, the only way a DVR can get access to the other compressed streams (often encrypted) is with the cooperation of the providers. CableCard tries to help with this for cable systems but still needs the cable providers to be compliant and provide and support the cablecards. Satellite providers have no similar technology on the horizon (or mandated) so the only way to get at their stuff is for them to effectively "build it".

[TiVoPhish]

yes that was talked about a while back and is what I was referring to in talking about the mini really being more of a media player and front end to iTunes. "TiVo like" was used generously. The Apple software for recording shows is just not very advanced yet, It does not seem to be Apple's focus for the mini. I only used scopp in the broad sense of giving the info. My DVR info mainly comes from this forum and I have no illusions of being the first to say any of this.

You said apple was unlikely to get into the PVR/DVR market. You're just wrong. And since it's not out yet, you might want to hold of criticizing it. Let's see which comes out first. TiVo HD and iPod support (across both platforms), or Apples Mac Mini home media center.

And if you want to overlook what Dan and I both said that TiVo can not provide an HD DVR for a closed receiver such as Dish than have fun with your rant. The simple fact is that until the FCC tells the sat companies to open up their system ala cable card or Dish decides to work a deal with TiVo which is very doubtful - you will be stuck with the DVR Dish decides to provide with whatever features they have or can be hacked. Does it have firewire?

YOU are overlooking the facts. I do not have HDTV +TiVo options where I live. I'm not going to buy a box limited in features. Dish Network doesn't offer it. Neither does my cable company. And I hear NO plans for any of that to become reality in the near future. I have the ability to listen, maybe you do not.

And until whoever, whether FCC or someone else, decides to do something about the current state of affairs, TiVo sales will continue to drop and TiVo will lose loyal customers -- and guess who loses? ALL of us.

Cable Card is only now getting traction. So there was a very large technical hurdle to overcome and for the Sat providers it looks like the FCC mandating access is the only way you will get your wish of a Stand Alone HD TiVo for sat..

And that's exactly what my rant is about. It's all taken so darn long that I don't even know if TiVo will be able to survive -- don't kid yourself... whether the FCC mandates it or not, MOST people will just get the DVR available for free or lease through their cable/satellite company. Unless TiVo really starts to sell itself as so different from what's out there already (now that YEARS have gone by), we are all going to end up giving up our TiVos... and that's exactly what I don't want to happen!


I think many of us are just looking for a HDTV SA2 unit that works with any tv provider we choose. We all love our tivos and hate to be limited to any provider because they support Tivo. D* was the choice for many of us because they supported tivo and offered us great units like the hr10-250. Now the winds have changed and comcast customers are about to get a great deal. I have mediacom and am very interested in the CC tivo but I've already made a large investment with D*. So many of us would like to have a HDTV SA2 unit that works with whoever and whenever we want.

I have no clue, but isn't it possible to record something that outputs with componet cables?

Generalpatton you are exactly right. Maybe there are technical hurdles to jump over, but nothing is uncrackable. The more popular HDTV gets, the more TiVo (and other DVR systems, DVD-R systems, etc.) are going to have to figure out a way to support it.


TiVo sales are not affected significantly by Mac sales. Apple finally managed to get 4% of the PC market this year...the coat tails are extremely small... I'd say Mac is riding the coat tails of iPod, if anything.

This is just wrong thinking. Whether Apply owns 4% or 50% of the home PC market is besides the point... they DO own a very high percentage of the portable media player market, and TiVo should have been working on rolling out support for it the day it hit the streets... and in order to NOT piss off the company you're trying to support, and as a good business practice, you make sure you roll out support for both platforms simultaneously. Why would you cut out ANY of the market, especially when right now you need all the sales you can get?? Mac sales are up, and iPod sales are through the roof, so why WOULDN'T TiVo care about it? They should.

When I read your rant, I expected to see that this was posted way back, since most of the stuff you're complaining about has been announced as coming out this year.

But still not available. I have been exploring the HD support thing for a LONG time. At one point I almost made the jump to DirectTV... but that's no choice either. If I did make that jump the iPod argument goes right out the window since the DTV box offers no TTG support at all. $600 for a limited TiVo is no option at all... and now DTV is jumping ship anyway.


For several thousand dollars, yes!

That's the whole point. HD Digital is completely different than SD analog. While it was relatively easy and inexpensive to produce the hardware needed to process and record an analog TV signal, it would be REALLY expensive and difficult to do the same with the UNCOMPRESSED digital outputs that are fed out of the component or DVI/HDMI connections. All consumer level HD DVRs need access to the compressed digital signal (ATSC for broadcast, QAM for most cable systems and some MPEG2 or MPEG4 for satellite). Other than the broadcast stuff, the only way a DVR can get access to the other compressed streams (often encrypted) is with the cooperation of the providers. CableCard tries to help with this for cable systems but still needs the cable providers to be compliant and provide and support the cablecards. Satellite providers have no similar technology on the horizon (or mandated) so the only way to get at their stuff is for them to effectively "build it".

So I guess it comes down to just praying -- LOL. These are the type of technicals I know less about and the big problem NOW is that a lot of the providers are offering their own psuedo-TiVos. TiVo is going to need to do SOMETHING to stay in the game, but the more I read and hear about, the less it seems likely. If a die-hard like me is going to have no real choice but to look elsewhere, the average consumer is certainly going to look elsewhere.

I just had a conversation a few weeks ago with my Boss... a big IT guy. He wanted me to tell him all what TiVo could do for him. As much as I promo'd the unit hard, explained all the benefits, in the end without HD support he had to choose to go with our local cable company's DVR.

[Justin Thyme]

If a die-hard like me.You are hardly a die hard. You can use DirecTv tivos and have all the video fidelity you want. You can add a second SA unit and transfer all the stuff you want via TTG to a video iPod or whatever. If you don't want to buy an extra unit, then mod the HD unit and transfer using well known tools. Plus you get HD quality mpegs- better than TTG. If you are concerned about what you do after the HD unit dies, then you can buy the CC HD Tivo.
(I won't switch satellite companies, and have to pay and arm and a leg for a box that I lose features with!). Well. You wouldn't lose features with such an approach, and at $289 for an HD Tivo (http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGHES-HR10-250-HDTV-DIRECTV-TiVo-Receiver-UPGRADE_W0QQitemZ5845535150QQcategoryZ67892QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewI tem) (AR), it seems to me you are a die hard so long as you are not inconvenienced.

There are already Apple solutions. They all cost a bundle, and they are not able to connect to the Satellite Carrier Networks either, so I don't understand the point. It's not that Tivo dropped the ball- no other vendor can do what you are requesting. When Apple comes out with a unit that folks can buy for $50, then that will be significant. But that really isn't Apple's style, is it? When apple comes out with a video transfer policy that is as liberal as Tivo's, that will be very interesting- especially considering Apple wants to sell video content on iTMS.

Yeah, the cable companies are giving their DVRs away for free in hopes they can kill the Tivo phenomenon. The weakness in their strategy is that they have no lock in on those users. No barrier to exit means that if folks want a real DVR, they can upgrade to a CC Tivo, get all the TTG connectivity and HME features. And the cost of the Tivo unit is negligible when you consider their high resale value.

So your rant really seems a bit more of a whine to me.

If you want to advocate a hypothetical Apple device over existing Tivo solutions, if you want to recite the Tivo Death Watch refrain be my guest, but "die hard" "Tivo junkie"? Please.

[TiVoPhish]

You are hardly a die hard. You can use DirecTv tivos and have all the video fidelity you want. You can add a second SA unit and transfer all the stuff you want via TTG to a video iPod or whatever. If you don't want to buy an extra unit, then mod the HD unit and transfer using well known tools. Plus you get HD quality mpegs- better than TTG. If you are concerned about what you do after the HD unit dies, then you can buy the CC HD Tivo.
Well. You wouldn't lose features with such an approach, and at $289 for an HD Tivo (http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGHES-HR10-250-HDTV-DIRECTV-TiVo-Receiver-UPGRADE_W0QQitemZ5845535150QQcategoryZ67892QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewI tem) (AR), it seems to me you are a die hard so long as you are not inconvenienced.

I said I was a die-hard fan, not a die-hard rich woman with the ambition to hack my TiVo... which of course goes back to my rant about what TiVo is providing to us vs. what we have to do ourselves (with hacks and add-on programs -- did you see the part where I mentioned how long it took to transfer a 1-hour show to my iPod video?) and hacks, additional software and hardware is hardly a good business strategy for the masses.

And $289 isn't the price... That is AFTER a $200 mail-in rebate. So you're asking me to lay out $489 for a 30 hour TiVo box that will never get automatic software updates or be able to do TTG out of the box?... plus whatever it costs me to switch from Dish Network to DirectTV (equipment, setup, etc.).

I'll admit it may in SMALL PART be a convenience issue, but there's a helluva lot more to it than that.


There are already Apple solutions. They all cost a bundle, and they are not able to connect to the Satellite Carrier Networks either, so I don't understand the point. It's not that Tivo dropped the ball- no other vendor can do what you are requesting.

But there ARE DVRs that will do the job, just not as well... what sets TiVo apart? Nothing... because it can't do the HD part. So all you get is a set of trade-offs you have to decide upon. OBVIOUSLY up to now TiVo has been more important to me than HD... but that isn't going to be forever because after years of waiting for a solution I still don't have one with TiVo.

When Apple comes out with a unit that folks can buy for $50, then that will be significant. But that really isn't Apple's style, is it? When apple comes out with a video transfer policy that is as liberal as Tivo's, that will be very interesting- especially considering Apple wants to sell video content on iTMS.

Apple already came out with an affordable computer solution (not their typical way-too-much money home pc)... I bought two of them this year (one for my daughter, one for my brother). Their video transfer policy so far is pretty liberal since there's stuff for free and stuff for pay... and it's only just begun. When it can connect to my TV and record, we'll see what happens. Ever use iTunes and an iPod? It couldn't be easier... and YES, I can record all my own music into it FOR FREE, play it and get it on my iPod. TiVo couldn't be easier for what IT does... but TiVo could take a marketing lesson from what Apple has done in recent times.

Yeah, the cable companies are giving their DVRs away for free in hopes they can kill the Tivo phenomenon.

and slowly succeeding.

The weakness in their strategy is that they have no lock in on those users. No barrier to exit means that if folks want a real DVR, they can upgrade to a CC Tivo, get all the TTG connectivity and HME features. And the cost of the Tivo unit is negligible when you consider their high resale value.

Wait one second. First off there is not CC TiVo yet.. just a lot of talk about there being one soon... and we have NO idea what wide-spread availability will be like.... nor even the cost at this point. We don't know if it will have TTG features yet do we (though it's a safe assumption it will, I agree). There is a HUGE exit barrier.... MOST consumers don't want to dismantle their home media center to add a TiVo if their DVR is doing the job already (and they haven't been sufficiently "sold" on why they need a TiVo). I still have relatives who argue their VCR does the job! If they get a box for FREE or very low monthly cost from their cable provider, trust me, they won't spend the money on TiVo unless you can convince them the features are that much better... and that's not an easy sell (and guess what, TiVo isn't doing a great job at selling itself as it is).

So your rant really seems a bit more of a whine to me.

Maybe so, but completely justified. How long would you like me to hang my hopes on the fact that TiVo will actually have a solution for me? I don't live in a comcast area. I don't want to lose features or have less recording space. For two years now I've wanted to enjoy HDTV, and even more so in the last year as many more channels are broadcasting in HD. How long is long enough to wait? That's not a question as much as me wondering outloud, because I keep waiting... I really AM holding out for a solution because I LOVE MY TIVO.

If you want to advocate a hypothetical Apple device over existing Tivo solutions, if you want to recite the Tivo Death Watch refrain be my guest, but "die hard" "Tivo junkie"? Please.

Wasn't the point of the thread. Someone who replied brought up that Apple wasn't going to make a DVR and pretty much accused me of not reading enough and knowing what I was talking about. Guess what? Apple IS going to explore that market. Whether it's as good as TiVo or offers an HD solution is an unknown, and I'm not an advocate or naysayer about it. Time will tell.

I need not prove to you my TiVo junkie status... I've probably had a box longer than you knew they existed, so PLEASE yourself. Just because I won't jump through hoops to do the job TiVo itself should be doing doesn't mean I don't LOVE my TiVo, and hope they offer a real HD solution and Mac/iPod TTG support -- because there's enough of us that it's worth doing... and they NEED the business.

[Justin Thyme]

IAnd $289 isn't the price... That is AFTER a $200 mail-in rebate. So you're asking me to lay out $489 for a 30 hour TiVo box that will never get automatic software updates or be able to do TTG out of the box?... plus whatever it costs me to switch from Dish Network to DirectTV (equipment, setup, etc.). It still costs your $289. You just don't want to be inconvenienced with rebates.

You can add a standalone Tivo and get all the TTG connectivity you want to your video ipod.

Done. You could have done this "years ago" when you got your HDTV. So what's the problem?

As for apple? Ever use iTunes and an iPod? It couldn't be easier.No. I think $1.99 is too much to pay for video I can get for free with my Tivo.

[MickeS]

TivoPhish wrote:
And the Mac support thing is just ridiculous. Had they timed it right they would have been able to ride the coat tales of Apple for a while and boost their sales.

and then



Originally Posted by MickeS
TiVo sales are not affected significantly by Mac sales. Apple finally managed to get 4% of the PC market this year...the coat tails are extremely small... I'd say Mac is riding the coat tails of iPod, if anything.


This is just wrong thinking. Whether Apply owns 4% or 50% of the home PC market is besides the point... they DO own a very high percentage of the portable media player market, and TiVo should have been working on rolling out support for it the day it hit the streets...

What IS your point exactly? You said that TiVo would have sold more units if they had Mac support, I pointed out that since the Mac market is miniscule, they wouldn't have. Then you counter that by saying that it doesn't matter how many Macs there are (?) but that you were talking about the portable media market.

Why did you even bring up Macs in the first place then, since they have little to do with the portable media market (my iPod works fine with my PC, just like I suspect it is for most people who have an iPod)?

but then you say
Why would you cut out ANY of the market, especially when right now you need all the sales you can get?? Mac sales are up, and iPod sales are through the roof, so why WOULDN'T TiVo care about it? They should.

Uh... so DOES it matter how many Macs there are, or doesn't it? You apparently believe it does... and then that it doesn't... and then that it does.

Maybe you should figure out what you believe, and then write something that makes sense.

[TiVoPhish]

It still costs your $289. You just don't want to be inconvenienced with rebates.

You can add a standalone Tivo and get all the TTG connectivity you want to your video ipod.

Done. You could have done this "years ago" when you got your HDTV. So what's the problem?

As for apple? No. I think $1.99 is too much to pay for video I can get for free with my Tivo.


Repeat yourself all you want. Where is this magical TiVo HD unit I'm going to buy that isn't going to limit my features (OUT OF THE BOX) and allow me to use TTG without hacking it? I'm not going to layout $489 for a limited TiVo box with a smaller harddrive and no software updates.

Rebates mean you pay the money upfront and wait 8 weeks to get the money back... HOPEFULLY. Any idea how rebate companies work? They get incentives NOT to approve your rebate, so you jump through hoops with about a 50% chance you'll ever get the money back. It COSTS $489, and than hopefully, you'd get the $200 back. I'd also never buy the box through ebay to count on a rebate. Considering how limited the box is, I also don't think it's worth even the $289. For a box that lacks network support, software updates and TTG, I might as well go to any old DVR at the point and sacrifice TiVo's excellent interface for HD capability (hence the dilema). ... AND soon enough, DirectTV will not be supporting TiVo at all.

Guess what dude? Your video ISN'T free... you pay your cable company or satellite company for it (unless you're gonna tell me you have your TiVo hooked up to an antenna, which I doubt). And there's LOTS of "free" Video to be had with your iPod... free video podcasts for example... any DVD I own can go on my iPod... anything I can record with TiVo can go on my iPod ... but right now it's not so easy or time-efficient. TiVo is already promising iPod support, so why you so anti-apple? They obviously aren't. My gripe is that it's not YET available, and they've been promising Mac computer support for a long time. They are essentially sending customers out the doors into the arms of other companies.

Don't kid yourself... if Apple comes out with a kick-ass DVR with a built-in iPod dock (which is what the rumors point to), lots of iPod owners (and there's LOTS of them) are going to choose THAT over TiVo. And THAT my friend, is bad for TiVo, and all of us.

And if it supports HD, I'll be taking a hard look too. I don't care if it's Apple, Sony or Sam's DVR Company. I can only wait so long while TiVo is stuck in development.

[Justin Thyme]

Hey hey. Simmer down. $289 is $289. It's too much trouble for you to fill out forms. I understand.

You didn't explain why you refused to get an SA Tivo, if you are such a tivo junkie, and want to have the TTG features.

You didn't explain why you didn't get HD DirecTivo "years ago" when you got your HDTV, even though HD is such a bit deal to you.

[TiVoPhish]

What IS your point exactly? You said that TiVo would have sold more units if they had Mac support, I pointed out that since the Mac market is miniscule, they wouldn't have. Then you counter that by saying that it doesn't matter how many Macs there are (?) but that you were talking about the portable media market.

The iPod market is NOT miniscule, and because of the iPods success the Mac home PC market is growing. Ignoring the Apple platform is bad for business, and for making friends at Apple to team up for TiVo/iPod super-support... which would be GREAT for TiVo sales.

Why did you even bring up Macs in the first place then, since they have little to do with the portable media market (my iPod works fine with my PC, just like I suspect it is for most people who have an iPod)?

Because it's one of those areas where TiVo has been making promises and hasn't yet come through... and it's been a LONG time. There's good reason to develop TTG for the Mac, but it doesn't happen. Now the iPod Video has hit the street and iTunes business is up up up. Where is TiVo, still promising iPod and Apple support. Not smart business.

[TiVoPhish]

Hey hey. Simmer down. $289 is $289. It's too much trouble for you to fill out forms. I understand.

Hey Justin, you're being an... cough cough cough.
Laying out $489 is still $489 out of my pocket today. What part of that don't you understand?

You didn't explain why you refused to get an SA Tivo, if you are such a tivo junkie, and want to have the TTG features.

You didn't pay attention to the fact I already HAVE a SA TiVO and use TTG features. Doesn't much solve the HD dilema does it??? Certainly doesn't make the process very easy, user friendly or marketable to the masses does it (for say, use with an iPod)? I certainly don't use it as often as I would if it was much less time-consuming and effecient.

You didn't explain why you didn't get HD DirecTivo "years ago" when you got your HDTV, even though HD is such a bit deal to you.

Uh yeah, I did explain it... you just weren't listening. Because the box is limited and too much money for what it is. How many times must *I* repeat myself for you to hear it???? You complain that Apple's DVR might be too much money (comparing it to a $50 TiVo) but then want me to lay out $489, spending $289 when I get the rebate money back, for a box that has less features. And you certainly aren't addressing the fact that DirectTV is going to stop supporting TiVo, or the fact that it would cost money for me to switch over to another provider.

What's going to happen with the mpeg-4 stream from DTV starts and lots of shows can't even be viewed through that expensive, limited DTV TiVo box?

My rant is valid. You don't agree. Fine.

[Justin Thyme]

You did not explain why it is so difficult to use DirecTv with an SA Tivo to get your TTG features. Use HD Tivo to get your HD to your set. Simple.

But filling out rebate forms is complex.

I understand.

[MickeS]

Ignoring the Apple platform is bad for business

Do you have any shred of evidence of this? Mind you, iPod compatibility has little to do with a Mac version of Tivo Desktop.

because of the iPods success the Mac home PC market is growing

Yeah, it grew a lot, something like from 3.7% to 4.0% IIRC... hardly numbers that keep TiVo folks up at night worrying about losing money to Mac users who don't buy TiVo because there is no TiVo Desktop.

[TiVoPhish]

Justin, explain this setup you're talking about. You're talking about me having two TiVos connected to one TV... Explain exactly how it will be if I record at HD program and want to use it in TTG (without hacking the box)? Explain how this is all going to work when the mpeg-4 stream starts rendering at least some of my programming through DTV/Tivo unplayable? Please explain why I should buy two TiVos to do the job that one SHOULD do? And why should I invest in equipment that is just about obsolete since DTV is phasing TiVo out... and why I should spend money on a box that lacks features or upgradability? I suppose I'm going to have to hook it back up to a phone line too for programming info? Gotta pay twice for service now too, eh?

I know, I know, it's easier for you to just accuse me of being an idiot even though you can't seem to understand that laying out $489 still means laying out $489, and rebate companies are in it NOT to approve them. I can fill out forms, but I only do it when I buy equipment that is actually worth buying. Yes, I must just be stupid for thinking TiVo could be making so much more money and be a much more successful company if they played their cards right and actually followed through on their promises. Yup, I guess I'm just an idiot for wanting one TiVo box to do what it should, rather than having to rig up two boxes and hack them to get them to perform. Yeah yeah, I'm just dumb for not going to the lack-of-features DirectTV route at a higher cost.

[Justin Thyme]

Rebates I guess are too much for some tivo junkies.

The setup would be:

Two Cable runs to your TV. One goes to the $289 HD Tivo. The other goes to a DirecTv set top box. The output of the set top box goes to the $50 Standalone Tivo, or use one that you (supposedly for the sake of argument) already own. The output of the HDTivo and the SA Tivo go to your TV, or go to a switcher box if your TV can't handle multiple inputs.

Looks like you would be out $289.

Choose the theoretical Apple DVR, and you will be out much much more than that my friend, and it also is not going to record HDTV at all for anything less than thousands, as noted earlier.

[TiVoPhish]

Do you have any shred of evidence of this? Mind you, iPod compatibility has little to do with a Mac version of Tivo Desktop.

Wanna be friends with Apple? Support Apple computers. Period. It's not a hard concept to understand. iPod is made by Apple.

Yeah, it grew a lot, something like from 3.7% to 4.0% IIRC... hardly numbers that keep TiVo folks up at night worrying about losing money to Mac users who don't buy TiVo because there is no TiVo Desktop.

Apple Hot Pick for 2006, Winner in 2005 (http://www.macobserver.com/stockwatch/2005/12/30.1.shtml)

The hottest stocks of 2005 (http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/28/markets/sp_winners_2005/index.htm)

meanwhile...

TiVo Outlook Hurt By Lack Of 2006 Catalyst (http://www.forbes.com/markets/economy/2005/12/28/tivo-earnings-comcast-1228markets11.html)

No, any smart company wouldn't want a part of THAT. Come on dude, with iPod video hitting the shelves and expected to SOAR, why WOULDN'T TiVo want to time compatibility with both iPod and Apple computer properly?

But now, with Apple (and lots of other companies) making and developing their own DVRs, I'm very afraid for TiVo if they don't get in the game... and quickly.

"As Apple works to make its computers digital multimedia hubs, the book-sized Mac mini introduced in early 2005 is predicted to get features that will make it fit more comfortably in a living room. Add an iPod dock or a TV tuner, for instance, and it could serve as a home’s music hub and a TiVo-like digital video recorder."
http://www.toptechnews.com/story.xhtml?story_id=130000034SP0

[MickeS]

Hey, it's actually $289.37 including the stamp to send in the mail-in rebate. Keep your numbers straight, Justin!

TiVoPhish, tell me how stock prices for Apple would affect TiVo sales? I already told you that I know that Mac sales grew (percentagewise the growth was great... in terms of market share, barely a blip on the radar), and that iPod sales are flourishing. I'm just asking you to point to ANY shred of evidence that this would translate into increased sales of TiVo units if they developed a Mac version of TiVo Desktop. I agree they SHOULD, just to be nice to the existing customer base... but I doubt that it'll increase sales. Please, do tell how you came to the conclusion that TiVo's sales would have been boosted had they had TiVo Desktop for Mac. Those links you posted have zero to do with that.

[TiVoPhish]

Rebates I guess are too much for some tivo junkies.

The setup would be:

Two Cable runs to your TV. One goes to the $289 HD Tivo. The other goes to a DirecTv set top box. The output of the set top box goes to the $50 Standalone Tivo, or use one that you (supposedly for the sake of argument) already own. The output of the HDTivo and the SA Tivo go to your TV, or go to a switcher box if your TV can't handle multiple inputs.

Looks like you would be out $289.

Choose the theoretical Apple DVR, and you will be out much much more than that my friend, and it also is not going to record HDTV at all for anything less than thousands, as noted earlier.

Still didn't answer some of my questions though, did you? You wanna be a smart-ass, but don't actually want to be helpful. You just want to be "right".

How am I getting HD Tivo content to TTG? (without hacks)
Am I paying for service for two TiVo's now?
Am I hooking my expensive low-featured DTV Tivo to the phone line again?
What about the mpeg-4 streams? You think $289 (or $489) for a box is worth it when it's days are numbered?

And for ALL THAT, why should I buy a TiVo HD DVR over leasing one from a satellite or cable company? In your setup I could easily substitute expensive HD DTV TiVo #2 for any HD DVR. The HD TiVo is already not capable of networking, HME or TTG, so I might as well give up season passes and wishlists for something that's not actually obsolete, and will be able to play mpeg-4 streams.

If I wanted such a convoluted setup with two TiVos/DVRs hooked up to one TV, with me paying more service fees, with no ability to network the HD DVR or use TTG with that box, don't you think it would already be set up? You actually think consumers would buy this crap?

That's been my point all along.

[TiVoPhish]

Hey, it's actually $289.37 including the stamp to send in the mail-in rebate. Keep your numbers straight, Justin!

TiVoPhish, tell me how stock prices for Apple would affect TiVo sales? I already told you that I know that Mac sales grew (percentagewise the growth was great... in terms of market share, barely a blip on the radar), and that iPod sales are flourishing. I'm just asking you to point to ANY shred of evidence that this would translate into increased sales of TiVo units if they developed a Mac version of TiVo Desktop. I agree they SHOULD, just to be nice to the existing customer base... but I doubt that it'll increase sales. Please, do tell how you came to the conclusion that TiVo's sales would have been boosted had they had TiVo Desktop for Mac. Those links you posted have zero to do with that.

Consumer confidence.

and more importantly, because APPLE would like it, and maybe APPLE would (or would have, I think that opportunity is probably over now) say "hey, these TiVo guys are on the ball, supporting our products, so lets get them in on the game"... okay, a little optimistic on my part, but it's better than the "f-apple" attitude they've taken instead (or at least appear to). You don't think taking advantage of the popularity of the iPod and playing nice with the company who makes the iPod is good for business?

You don't think my daughter would have liked a TiVo for x-mas if she could easily use her iPod video with it? "Hey Apple, TiVo guys here, we want to put a built-in iPod doc onto our next TiVo units... lets talk".... what is better in this scenario, that they are already supporting Mac or not?

[MickeS]

and more importantly, because APPLE would like it, and maybe APPLE would (or would have, I think that opportunity is probably over now) say "hey, these TiVo guys are on the ball, supporting our products, so lets get them in on the game"... okay, a little optimistic on my part, but it's better than the "f-apple" attitude they've taken instead (or at least appear to).

Every decision Apple has made regarding media availabilty indicates that Apple doesn't give a **** about DVR compatibility (unless maybe it's their own DVR, and it can also be used to buy shows from iTMS). They want to sell shows at $1.99 a pop. They couldn't care less about TiVo's "attitude". Do you base your hypothesis on anything resembling reality?

You don't think my daughter would have liked a TiVo for x-mas if she could easily use her iPod video with it?

Sure. It also happens to be Apple's nightmare scenario. They want to SELL her the shows for $1.99 a pop from iTMS. They don't care about DVRs.

[Justin Thyme]

Now you are being silly. If you want free content to your video iPod and be able to record HD shows, that is how you could do it. And the great thing is that such a capability is least expensive if you use a Tivo. You can do it with an MCE or a Mac, but it will cost you well over a thousand.

If you think it is complex, maybe AV equipment is a little beyond you. Hire a professional if you want, or some kid down the street. They will have no trouble with it.

It would cost you $289 and you would get all the features you were asking for.

[TiVoPhish]

You're so quick to jump on the $1.99 thing -- there's also lots of content available for free. And Quicktime (made by apple) allows you to take ANY video and dump direct output for iPod video... yes, ANY video. No hacks, no wacky setups. You click "export" and then "iPod" and the video is now ready for your iPod video. They are offering movie trailers in iPod video formats for direct downloads. There are video podcasts for free. And this is all just the very beginning since the iPod video is brand new.

How great would it be to have thumbs-up features that dump movie trailers and commercials of interest to iPods easily and quickly? How great would it be to have guide info on your iPod and the ability to make "to-do" lists on the go... when you dock it, it transfers all back to the TiVo. TiVo is already seeing pictures and MP3, and there's been talk about supporting AAC.... how does any of this HURT TiVo as a company???

Why wouldn't TiVo want to support that? With or without Apple's cooperation? Much better WITH, which is why, as a business, you support the company (and their operating system) that develops the darn thing.

You argue as if there's a downside to them opening their doors to more people. Like I said earlier, whether it's 4% or 50% of people who own macs, why WOULDN'T you want that business? That's 4% or 50% MORE than you currently have... and they are IN the position to NEED it.

But nah, f-apple... who cares that their growth is expected to be continue it's upward climb while we fall. We'll take 6 months to support iPod and another year to offer TTG on Mac... who cares.

How is any of what I'm suggesting BAD for business?

[TiVoPhish]

Now you are being silly. If you want TivoToGo, that is how you could do it. If you think it is complex, maybe AV equipment is a little beyond you. Hire a professional if you want, or some kid down the street. They will have no trouble with it.

It would cost you $289 and you would get all the features you were asking for.

Answer the question(s) Justin. How is my HD content getting to my TTG, and while you're at it explain how it's marketable to any consumer since DTV HD TiVo doesn't offer it.

Tell me all you want it's beyond me. MOST consumers aren't going to hire a professional or be sold on two TiVos to get the job done.

Instead of trying to prove me stupid go ahead and assume I am -- because so are MOST consumers of TiVo... hence the reason they make the interface so darn easy. If you think what you are proposing is marketable, it's your type of thinking that will be the downfall of TiVo.

Really, very sad.

[Justin Thyme]

Let me guess.

You are really a Mac junkie.

[TiVoPhish]

Let me guess.

You are really a Mac junkie.

Let me guess, you can't answer the question (as I reply to you from my Windows PC).

I have both because I'm an Art Director... and guess what? It's good business to know and support both platforms.

[Justin Thyme]

Answer the question(s) Justin. How is my HD content getting to my TTG....You want to get HD content to your video iPod? Why? It only displays 480x480. I'm confused.

[TiVoPhish]

Answer the question how I get it through TTG, so I can view it wherever I want.

And how about I recorded it in HD because that's the channel it was on and I didn't KNOW where'd I'd want to watch it, but since it's only through one of my TiVos, I had to pick ahead of time whether it would be HD or not... happened to pick HD... now I want it on-the-go.

There were other questions too.

[Justin Thyme]

Gee. If you really want that either pay PVR upgrade for a modded Hughes, spend over a thousand and record it over the air with an MCE. Or wait for the CC HD Tivo and spend far less. Tough choice I know.

[TiVoPhish]

Gee. If you really want that either pay PVR upgrade for a modded Hughes, spend over a thousand and record it over the air with an MCE. Or wait for the CC HD Tivo and spend far less. Tough choice I know.

Wow, you really are a .... cough cough

How bout just answering the questions, because what you're babbling about now is way off point.

Do I need to repeat that I'm not in a comcast area, or are you too dense to remember that?

[etsolow]

/scratches out own eyes after reading thread.

It's really pretty simple, TiVoPhish... you'll never get what you want on Dish, unless they announce major policy changes. The only way you'll get a full-featured TiVo that can record HDTV is with the CableCARD TiVo. Whether your cable company supports that or not is another issue; they should, as the FCC has mandated it, but who knows. Whether you want to switch to cable is also another issue... but if you insist on staying with Dish, you can use their HD-DVR or use a standard-def TiVo with all the other features you want. If you go to DirecTV you can use their TiVo to record in Hi-Def, but without all the extra features you like.

Blaming TiVo for this conundrum is a little silly, as it's really not their fault. They CAN'T record HDTV from Dish... and they CAN'T provide the extra HMO features on the DirecTV units. The only way they can control the feature-set is by utilizing an open standard that allows HDTV recording: CableCARD. And that's what they've announced they are going to do. Huzzah!

E

(NOTE: I am referring to manufacturer-supported configurations here. If you are up for hacking/modding, more options become available! :D)

[Justin Thyme]

To add to the previous poster's succinct treatment, the reason why TTG is not available on DTivos is because Tivo offered, but DirecTv refused. Complain to them. If enough people tell them they want TTG and continued availability of Tivo boxes, maybe they will listen to their customers. Or maybe their customers will turn to Cable and uses of CC Tivos.
Wow, you really are a .... cough cough

How bout just answering the questions, because what you're babbling about now is way off point.

Do I need to repeat that I'm not in a comcast area, or are you too dense to remember that?I'm trying to answer your questions. Calm down.

Your local cable provider's noncompliance with FCC regulations directing ALL cable providers to support cablecard has nothing to do with it. (BTW- it's not just comcast's 25 million users, but all six of the major cable carriers were required to be compliant with cablecard 1.0 requirements and they are).

Perhaps you are unaware that the CC Tivo records HD off the air (ATSC). So you don't need to use it with a cable provider to record HD over the air.

But I am not following the drift of your wandering requirements. It is clear you can do what you asked for, it is just that it is too inconvenient for you. If you want HD recordings on your Apple and don't want to get your hands dirty, you can get a modded box from PTVUpgrade. There is a mac application that does the transfer and you wind up with a jim dandy HD program. No hassles with OTA reception, you can record DirecTv's full HD station lineup.

[TiVoPhish]

/scratches out own eyes after reading thread.

It's really pretty simple, TiVoPhish... you'll never get what you want on Dish, unless they announce major policy changes. The only way you'll get a full-featured TiVo that can record HDTV is with the CableCARD TiVo. Whether your cable company supports that or not is another issue; they should, as the FCC has mandated it, but who knows. Whether you want to switch to cable is also another issue... but if you insist on staying with Dish, you can use their HD-DVR or use a standard-def TiVo with all the other features you want. If you go to DirecTV you can use their TiVo to record in Hi-Def, but without all the extra features you like.

So what you are telling me is it isn't inherently a Dish Network problems since DirectTV can't do it all either (and they are dropping TiVo anyway), and currently there are NO cable solutions at all -- something "coming soon" isn't exactly available right now... and who knows how long before it is available... which means there is NO solution, so it has little to do with whether I choose to stay with Dish or not.

Blaming TiVo for this conundrum is a little silly, as it's really not their fault. They CAN'T record HDTV from Dish... and they CAN'T provide the extra HMO features on the DirecTV units. The only way they can control the feature-set is by utilizing an open standard that allows HDTV recording: CableCARD. And that's what they've announced they are going to do. Huzzah!

I don't entirely blame TiVo, but it IS at least partially their fault for reasons I've stated already, and probably others. No, they aren't entirely to blame. Cablecard promises something that is yet to be available, so in theory it all sounds very nice, but not if only one company support it, or if the companies that do are always "out of stock" on the cards in favor of their own DVR.

(NOTE: I am referring to manufacturer-supported configurations here. If you are up for hacking/modding, more options become available! :D)

Which doesn't do much for TiVos business model since you can't market hacks to anyone but a very select crowd.



You still haven't answered my questions Justin... and have missed the point entirely. Going around in circles with you has proved useless. If you can't get that hacking TiVo just to get features that should be there to begin with is not marketable to the masses you're missing the boat, and hopefully TiVo is not standing on shore with you. I'm not going to spend $289, $489 or $1089 for a box that is crippled and that requires me to "get my hands dirty" to only have it crap out on me when mpeg-4 is the standard DirectTV begins to roll out. The setup you're suggesting is ridiculous, a waste of money AND not just inconvenient, but excessively cumbersome.







Now, a question for SOMEONE willing to answer it...

How is it possible that every TV manufacturer has managed to make an HD-Ready TV, but TiVo cannot do the same. Really, I'm not asking that in a sarcastic way... explain the technology that is different that makes it so hard for TiVo to output something every brand of HD TV can display.

[DocNo]

Now, a question for SOMEONE willing to answer it...

How is it possible that every TV manufacturer has managed to make an HD-Ready TV, but TiVo cannot do the same. Really, I'm not asking that in a sarcastic way... explain the technology that is different that makes it so hard for TiVo to output something every brand of HD TV can display.

I think there is a little truth in the fact that Tivo was probably waiting (vainly) for CC 2.0 with multiple stream support to be ratified. Unless I missed it (not unreasonable) we still don't know of the CC Tivo is CC v1 or CC v2. A standard like cable card is madatory for Tivo to be able to work with video sources, since all HD video sources are digital, and usually encrypted. No standards, no access to the digital stream. That's why you won't see new HD receivers for Dish or D* - they don't have to be compatible, they don't want to pay for Tivo and would rather try to make the money directly off of in-house developed hardware. It's why I'm sticking with Comcast instead of getting D* installed at my new house, and also why if the CC Tivo ships and is good I will be getting my parents off of D* and onto cable. Only then will the satellite guys listen :p

I also think Tivo was caught asleep at the wheel by the success of the cable co's DVRs -- Tivo arrogantly assumed that since they had such a vastly superior product, no one would EVER want some inferior piece 'o crap that didn't have the mighty Tivo stamp on it! Ha, most people are convenience and $$ oriented - not a good gamble for Tivo, esp. when as you pointed out until recently I never saw stand alone commercials for Tivo touting it's virtues. And with the continual devaluing of the rewards program, don't look for the aggressive prostilization they have been getting in the past either :p Also, Tivo had CEO, money management and other problems. Quite a churn in some of the original employee's too a few years back - some of which was witnessed here in the forum. All of that is distracting and can stop a good project (like Mac support).

JT can't answer you on HD because there isn't one right now. Your points about the "HD Solution" not being a solution are perfectly valid and spot on - no TTG or MP4 makes D* a brain-dead choice. Tivo is woefully late with the CC Tivo, I think everyone will pretty much agree on that (well, except for those drunk on kool-aid)

The only thing saving Tivo is most of the cable co DVR's are complete and utter pieces of @%#$. It won't stay that way forever, tho - Moxi actually has a nice set of features and the idea of a central media server with cheap remote end units is a powerful one. If Microsoft ever got MCE stable, I would just go that route and be done with it myself - there are several nice MC extenders out there that will allow me to pull up any content I want on whatever TV I want. I don't see Apple as a Tivo saviour - I think they are rightfully skipping the reliance on Cable/Satillite and going straight for Internet Distribution. I don't want a DVR, I want content, preferably commercial free and high quality. If I can get it for a reasonable price (ITMS isn't there on quality or price yet) then I would happily chuck my Tivo out the window and cancel my cable bill. I'm not saying that Apple couldn't be a factor in the DVR front - Front Row is extendable and there is nothing keeping a company like Elgato from plugging their EyeTV into it.

Anyway, TiVoPhish, other than wanting an HD Tivo for Dish (or DirectTV - blame the FCC, not Tivo) I think your points are perfectly valid. Once the CC Tivo ships (still waiting, guys!) it should finally full-fill all your requests (except for Dish support - nothing Tivo can control).

Don't mind the kool-aid drinkers or the ad hominem attacks - but then again you seem to be handling yourself just fine :)

[TiVoPhish]

just to add...

I've been reading a little more about Apple DVRs on the horizon, and there's already hacks available for the Mac that let you turn it into a DVR.... and guess what? Is supports HD. So your statement "I doubt it will support HD" was nothing but an ignorant guess.

There were rumors for a while that Apple and TiVo might partner up, or Apple was interested in buying TiVo -- they were just rumors, but obviously I'm not the only one who thought their collaboration made sense.

Based on looking at Apple's "Front Row", the new iPod Video, the obvious licensing talks Apple is already in with movie studios, record companies and television studios, and the fact that they already have a publicly available SDK that lets you turn your mac into a PVR, seems to me it's not too far off base to guess that a HTPC from them is on the horizon... and one that WILL support HD. Could be wishful thinking on my part, but since it's currently possible to install software that does it, it's at least a wish based in reality.

Am I suggesting everyone run out and buy an Apple? -- not at all, but your constant arguing about how hacking my obsolete expensive DirectTV TiVo box is THE answer, or waiting around for CC TiVo to be released and my Cable Company to comply is well... ridiculous at best.

Let me tell you something... I wouldn't give up my TiVo for a Dish network PVR or for a less functional DirectTV TiVo... but if the interface from Front Row is anything like what Apple plans to offer in a PVR with HD support, I am going to have no choice but to jump ship.


And since I'm ranting...

Ya know, I might have thanked you Justin for forcing me to look a lot of things up today, and finding out that Cablevision (my local cable provider) is "test marketing" a box with TiVo on it... one capable of HDTV. Even their website says so, and that the offer was extended... but guess what happened when I called? They did everything they could not to let me in on the offer, and to push me towards their own DVR, which the sales rep said was "way better than TiVo". So great, they agree to test-market with TiVo to see how people will like it, but then make it really hard to get... you gotta be really pushy. How nice of them.

Then it turns out as I ask many more questions, that he doesn't even know if its an HD-Ready TiVo... because the way the promotion works is they give me an HD DVR cable box and a coupon for a "free" TiVo, which I have to redeem with TiVo themselves... whether I get one with a slot for the cablecard is a mystery until I call them. How WEIRD Is that??? I asked him if he knew and he said yes, they have cable cards for compatible devices, but he had no idea what box TiVo would give me -- he assumed it would be whatever is currently available through their website.

So ya know what, I'll be the guinea pig and see how this all works out. Ultimately, because of their promotion for a year it saves me money on the monthly bills. Next Friday they'll come install my digital cable with 18 HD channels and their own PVR (which they claim so much "better" than TiVo -- but it has no home-network capabilities... "not yet" anyway), but because of their promotion, I'll get another standalone TiVo for free (and I still do have two other non HD TVs in the house) and at a reduced monthly service charge.


Do you see now how incredibly frustrating this all is, and how impossible it is to get the local cable company who not six months ago had a press release partnering them up with TiVo for a "test run" to agree to promo TiVo over their own PVR/DVR?? Do you see why TiVo is in danger here? I don't expect their HD DVR Cable Box to be "so much better" than TiVo, and I still end up with no TTG (or TTG-like) feature... but I'll get to try it out and compare... I know the Dish Network DVR SUCKS ASS (been trying that on one of our non-HD TVs for a year) and I won't be sorry to kiss that one goodbye.

I'll be calling TiVo to see how this whole promotion thing works, and to see which TiVo box I actually will get... somehow, I'm betting it'll be a 40-hour Series 2 without CC slot.

[Justin Thyme]

I think it will be sooner than 6 months. Apple has a proven track record with the iPod. The momentum (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1397) is building.

2006 should be an interesting year indeed....

...I still think Apple could give a flip about DVR's - that's not the future. Why try to deal with the hassle of trying to scrape content "off the air", with all the scheduling nightmares and users whining about commercials embedded in the programming when you can just sell the content commercial free on demand with no dependance on screwy networks and fussy cable/satillite companies?

Yup, the infrastructure isn't there for full resolution HD over the Internet yet, but broadband is gaining each year. And the current iTunes video offerings aren't doing too bad either, and networks seem to be falling over themselves to sign with Apple.

I know I would rather just download it than deal with scheduling crap for the shows I really like. I would still keep a DVR for "filler" material, but I would love to get all my "A list" stuff direct without commercials already. Not there yet, but give it time....
Why not be honest with everyone Dr. No. Your also are a big fan of the Apple approach of paid video download off the net. I don't have any problem with people advocating their favorite solution, but posing as a "die hard" "Tivo Junkie" who clearly couldn't be bothered to use existing HD solution for the past years to get HD is a little beyond the pale.

As for Apple. $1.99 for downloaded video is ridiculous. This is a solution? This is something to hold our breaths for. Yay! gee! an inexpensive intel based cpu with the grunt to play MP4 downloaded from the net at what? $5.99 a pop for an episode of whatever HD episodes NBC is grinding out? Yay! Here, maybe I should just hand Apple my credit cards and checkbook.

For a few years the Phisher here could have been enjoying recorded HD along with all the free HD video desired on a mac laptop, with all the video they wanted on a really nice portable video player like archos's 16x9 7 inch player. OK, so DirecTv made it somewhat inconvenient by blocking the features on the HD DTivo.

Maybe you two are right. Maybe people can't be botherred with mailing in rebates, who don't care if the solution costs way over a thousand dollars, and if you have to pay $1.99 for low resolution (320x240) content.

Personally, free video with no strings attached sounds a lot better to me.

[TiVoPhish]

Thanks for comment Doc... I appreciate a voice of reason in this discussion... (I think we were replying at the same time... hence why it seems like I ignored you... not intended...

I think there is a little truth in the fact that Tivo was probably waiting (vainly) for CC 2.0 with multiple stream support to be ratified. Unless I missed it (not unreasonable) we still don't know of the CC Tivo is CC v1 or CC v2. A standard like cable card is madatory for Tivo to be able to work with video sources, since all HD video sources are digital, and usually encrypted. No standards, no access to the digital stream. That's why you won't see new HD receivers for Dish or D* - they don't have to be compatible, they don't want to pay for Tivo and would rather try to make the money directly off of in-house developed hardware. It's why I'm sticking with Comcast instead of getting D* installed at my new house, and also why if the CC Tivo ships and is good I will be getting my parents off of D* and onto cable. Only then will the satellite guys listen :p

Well, now you see in my previous reply, I'm going back to cable... at least for now to be the guinea pig. I'll retain my TiVo and a new free one on my non HD TVs and try out their "better" DVR for a while... but alas, no home-network capabilities on that beast... but we shall see how it goes. With any luck, maybe when the new CC TiVos hit they will be compatible with my cable company's cablecard, which they claim is already available. TiVo is asleep at the wheel here! I'd buy a CC unit today if I could!

I also think Tivo was caught asleep at the wheel by the success of the cable co's DVRs -- Tivo arrogantly assumed that since they had such a vastly superior product, no one would EVER want some inferior piece 'o crap that didn't have the mighty Tivo stamp on it! Ha, most people are convenience and $$ oriented - not a good gamble for Tivo, esp. when as you pointed out until recently I never saw stand alone commercials for Tivo touting it's virtues.

And the commercials still aren't on enough. I know advertising is expensive, but without getting the word out, without HD support, and with a monthly service fee MOST people don't understand, most people won't make the purchase.

And with the continual devaluing of the rewards program, don't look for the aggressive prostilization they have been getting in the past either :p Also, Tivo had CEO, money management and other problems. Quite a churn in some of the original employee's too a few years back - some of which was witnessed here in the forum. All of that is distracting and can stop a good project (like Mac support).

It's so sad right?? TiVo has the superior product (but I advise you to check out Mac's "Front Row" software which I guarantee is going to roll out into home media PCs very soon). I have turned so many people onto TiVo over the years, but I have a harder time convincing people now. The killer is always HD support, or the service fee (when they can get a "no-cost" DVR from their provider).

JT can't answer you on HD because there isn't one right now. Your points about the "HD Solution" not being a solution are perfectly valid and spot on - no TTG or MP4 makes D* a brain-dead choice. Tivo is woefully late with the CC Tivo, I think everyone will pretty much agree on that (well, except for those drunk on kool-aid)

And again, how sad. Promises of Mac support going on forever (but no delivery), and I remember reading about the CC TiVos what seems like ions ago. All the "current" news says mid to late 2006. I'm afraid the ship is pulling out of port and TiVo may be dead in the water.

Even *I* am now going to end up with a cable-company DVR, and how it plays out from here will be dependent on what TiVo, Apple and my cable company do in the next year. I'll have my TiVo boxes on my non HD TVs, but those TVs aren't going to last long now.

The only thing saving Tivo is most of the cable co DVR's are complete and utter pieces of @%#$.

Agree...

It won't stay that way forever, tho - Moxi actually has a nice set of features and the idea of a central media server with cheap remote end units is a powerful one. If Microsoft ever got MCE stable, I would just go that route and be done with it myself - there are several nice MC extenders out there that will allow me to pull up any content I want on whatever TV I want. I don't see Apple as a Tivo saviour - I think they are rightfully skipping the reliance on Cable/Satillite and going straight for Internet Distribution. I don't want a DVR, I want content, preferably commercial free and high quality. If I can get it for a reasonable price (ITMS isn't there on quality or price yet) then I would happily chuck my Tivo out the window and cancel my cable bill. I'm not saying that Apple couldn't be a factor in the DVR front - Front Row is extendable and there is nothing keeping a company like Elgato from plugging their EyeTV into it.

We are on the same wavelength Doc... though I do think Apple is gonna get in the DVR game (see my post above). I was impressed at Front Row... TiVo like and iPod like... which will be appealing to the masses... and they certainly have everyone's attention right now.

You're right that these POS DVRs won't stay peices of sh*t... I'm interested to see what my cable company thinks is "better" than TiVo since they salesman was so pumped to tell me how much better it was (while trying to convince me he didn't have to honor THEIR OWN TiVo promotion, LOL).

Anyway, TiVoPhish, other than wanting an HD Tivo for Dish (or DirectTV - blame the FCC, not Tivo) I think your points are perfectly valid. Once the CC Tivo ships (still waiting, guys!) it should finally full-fill all your requests (except for Dish support - nothing Tivo can control).

Don't mind the kool-aid drinkers or the ad hominem attacks - but then again you seem to be handling yourself just fine :)

Well, looks like as of next week I won't be a Dish customer anymore anyway. I have to say, I'm sad to give it up... haven't had a day's problem with it. But things change. I just HOPE (and pray and hope some more) that in the long run I'll be able to go back to TiVo in my HD equipped bedroom (unless the cablevision DVR lives up to the salesman's hype, LOL). We'll soon find out.

[piper]

/scratches out own eyes after reading thread.

Blaming TiVo for this conundrum is a little silly, as it's really not their fault. They CAN'T record HDTV from Dish... and they CAN'T provide the extra HMO features on the DirecTV units. The only way they can control the feature-set is by utilizing an open standard that allows HDTV recording: CableCARD. And that's what they've announced they are going to do. Huzzah!

Couldn't a DVR record HDTV using the analogue component cables that go into the TV or even a digital DVI connection if there is one?

[TiVoPhish]

Why not be honest with everyone Dr. No. Your also are a big fan of the Apple approach of paid video download off the net.

$1.99 for downloaded video is ridiculous. For a few years the Phisher here could have been enjoying recorded HD along with all the tivotogo trimmings, but DirecTv made that somewhat inconvenient by blocking the features on the HD DTivo.

Maybe you two are right. Maybe people can't be botherred with mailing in rebates, who don't care if the solution costs way over a thousand dollars, and if you have to pay $1.99 for low resolution (320x240) content.

Personally, free video with no strings attached sounds a lot better to me.

Now I"m just going to say it. You're an ass.

Via iPod/iTunes there's LOTS OF VIDEO FOR FREE too. But you don't want to hear that.

There's no value in an obsolete Hughes DirectTV box, but you don't want to hear that.

The setup you suggested was RIDICULOUS but you don't want to hear that.

Where did you $1000 price come from, cause I ain't paying $1000 for anything, nor ever suggested I would... you just pulled that right out of your ear didn't you.

Give it up Justin. CC TiVos should have been out already. iPod support should have been out already. Mac support should have been out long ago. Apple or Microsoft or Sony or Cablevision or whoever is going to try to do it better, and may succeed. TiVo has catching up to do, and anyone with half a brain can see that.

[TiVoPhish]

Couldn't a DVR record HDTV using the analogue component cables that go into the TV or even a digital DVI connection if there is one?

As I understand it...

The DVR has to be able to output the signal. Current TiVos can't do that.

The reason, as I get it, is each company (cable and satellite) encrypts their signal differently... the only way to decrypt it with these cable cards that are now mandated by the FCC that TiVo says they'll support in future units.

You could use your TiVo but nothing would be shown in HD, nor record in HD.

[piper]

Now I"m just going to say it. You're an ass.

There's LOT OF VIDEO FOR FREE too. But you don't want to hear that.

There's no value in an obsolete Hughes DirectTV box, but you don't want to hear that.

The setup you suggested was RIDICULOUS but you don't want to hear that.

Where did you $1000 price come from, cause I ain't paying $1000 for anything, nor ever suggested I would... you just pulled that right out of your ear didn't you.

Give it up Justin. CC TiVos should have been out already. iPod support should have been out already. Mac support should have been out long ago. Apple or Microsoft or Sony or Cablevision or whoever is going to try to do it better, and may succeed. TiVo has catching up to do, and anyone with half a brain can see that.

The guy comes across as a bit of a fruitcake (it's great when you catch his posts before he edits out the juicy bits) and it's better just to laugh it off than attempt rational debate. In the unlikely event he ever secures paid employment I'm sure he'll calm down but in the meantime you might want back away before you start getting the PMs because he will never, ever, stop sniping at you (learned from experience).

[Justin Thyme]

You are right. And every major Consumer electronics manufacturer was wrong not to put out a Cablecard DVR out earlier. Whoops. Wrong. Sony put out a single tuner cablecard last spring for $900 or so. Consumer response was somewhat underwhelming.

You love Tivos, and you love HD but for the last few years you could not have been bothered to move to DirecTv and get an HD DTivo. Now you complain it's too late because of DirecTv's future plans. But I can't talk to you about the certainty that your local cable provider (whoever it is we don't know) will have to provide Cablecard support shortly. The have to by FCC requirement.

Even if your local supplier cannot provide HD, the CC HD TIvo will be able to download and play HD content just as easily as this mythical Apple player will do.

Hey. Tivo Junkie. Be happy. Dr. No was right. The momentum is building. But not for Apple. For Tivo.

[TiVoPhish]

You are right. And every major Consumer electronics manufacturer was wrong not to put out a Cablecard DVR out earlier. Whoops. Wrong. Sony put out a single tuner cablecard last spring for $900 or so. Consumer response was somewhat underwhelming.

See, now you're just making me laugh.
You're going to tell me how other DVRs can't succeed when they ARE prepared (and ready with cablecard support), but somehow TiVo is going to catch up next year and they don't have even 1/2 the marketing power of Sony???

AND they have to fight the DVRs people get FOR FREE from their cable/satellite provider? Come on, use your brain... you must have one rattling around in that head of yours.

You love Tivos, and you love HD but for the last few years you could not have been bothered to move to DirecTv and get an HD DTivo.

Cause when it first came out it was $1000.00 -- remember how you said that was SO MUCH money just above?

Then I was holding out for a time for TiVo to catch up.

Then I was trying out Dish Network's PVR (hate it!)

And then word came out (quite a while ago now, when their Tivo DVR was still damn expensive) that DirectTV would stop supporting TiVo and eventually mpeg2.

Got it???

Now you complain it's too late because of DirecTv's future plans. But I can't talk to you about the certainty that your local cable provider (whoever it is we don't know) will have to provide Cablecard support shortly. The have to by FCC requirement.

I complain because I'm not going to pay $289 or $489 for an obsolete box, to spend money to switch to another satellite provider. But maybe you should read above as what I AM going to do, because you obviously missed a post. Maybe you should read above about how hard cable companies make it to get TiVo, even when it's built right into their own promotion.

Even if your local supplier cannot provide HD, the CC HD TIvo will be able to download and play HD content just as easily as this mythical Apple player will do.

The mythical Apple player already does it. Read above. Again.

Read another reply of mine above. My cable provider (name already mentioned) already has a cablecard ready... but guess who doesn't have a box for it yet?? Yeah, that's right, TiVo.

Hey. The momentum is building. But not for Apple.

Oh, you are just so sad. Projections for Apple are high. For TiVo, not so much. It's okay to love your TiVo, it's okay to be a TiVo addict, but not at the cost of common sense dude. Come out of the TiVo-recorded clouds for a bit and take a bite out of reality because if you think Apple isn't building momentum you haven't been paying attention.

[Justin Thyme]

The guy comes across as a bit of a fruitcake (it's great when you catch his posts before he edits out the juicy bits) and it's better just to laugh it off than attempt rational debate. In the unlikely event he ever secures paid employment I'm sure he'll calm down but in the meantime you might want back away before you start getting the PMs because he will never, ever, stop sniping at you (learned from experience).Piper, perhaps people should take a look at your authoritative statements about Copy protection flags and bandwidth requirements for HD in the "How does Tivo Compare to Comcast On Demand" thread. Although you seem to have learned your error about bandwidth (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3563516&&#post3563516), you really were quite mistaken about the other points, and went out of your way to be insulting about it.

I understand you have an axe to grind too, so let's just advocate the positions and do so honestly. What substantive thing did you have to add to this particular thread?

[TiVoPhish]

Piper, perhaps people should take a look at your authoritative statements about Copy protection flags and bandwidth requirements for HD in the "How does Tivo Compare to Comcast On Demand" thread. Although you seem to have learned your error about bandwidth (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3563516&&#post3563516), you really were quite mistaken about the other points, and went out of your way to be insulting about it.

I understand you have an axe to grind too, so let's just advocate the positions and do so honestly. What substantive thing did you have to add to this particular thread?

LOL now that's pretty damn funny!!!! :D

Considering you obviously can't read, or even understand what you are reading, and have gone out of YOUR way to be antagonistic and insulting, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black! Bah!

[MickeS]

Like I said earlier, whether it's 4% or 50% of people who own macs, why WOULDN'T you want that business? That's 4% or 50% MORE than you currently have... and they are IN the position to NEED it.

Functions don't just appear out of nowhere. TiVo has to prioritize their development efforts. You still haven't made a good case why they should have prioritized development of an application that at the very most could be used by 4% of the computer literate population, and that would have to be provided for free at that, AND which only provides peripheral functionality that TiVo barely advertises in the first place, and that TiVo (through no fault of their own) doesn't even provide to a large portion of their existing customer base anyway (DirecTiVo). Wouldn't it make sense to initially focus the efforts on the other 96% of computer users?

You're so quick to jump on the $1.99 thing -- there's also lots of content available for free.
None of the free iTMS video content has any kind of value other than as a curiosity, or as a marketing tool (previews, one-off shows, podcasts, music videos). Maybe that will change, but I highly doubt it. Like I said, none of Apple's actions so far indicate any willingness to create an easy system for people to get premium content for free.

Maybe you should direct your anger more towards Apple's lack of a DVR than TiVo's lack of Apple supprt.

And Quicktime (made by apple) allows you to take ANY video and dump direct output for iPod video... yes, ANY video. No hacks, no wacky setups. You click "export" and then "iPod" and the video is now ready for your iPod video.

Sounds similar to the sync function in WMP10 which is used by several brands of portable video players. What's your point? That even Apple realizes that they can't charge people for everything? If so, you're correct.

By the way, I seem to recall that the problem is that Apple is using some kind of proprietary mpeg-2 codec that they won't allow TiVo to use, so TiVo have to write their own. Can't back that claim up though, but I'm pretty sure that's how it was.

I can rip CDs with iTunes too. That doesn't take away from the fact that everything in the iTunes system, including video, is set up to primarily support a pay-per-download model, and that integration of a third-party DVR would undermine this model.

how does any of this HURT TiVo as a company???

Of course it doesn't hurt them, if they had nothing else on their plate. They're coming out with iPod and PSP support IIRC (announced fairly recently), they've got the HD stuff, CableCard stuff they're working on... I just don't see how it makes sense busineswise to focus limited resources on developing applications for a niche-market (and remember, many Mac users own a PC too!), before they've added other products that will directly affect their sales.

[TiVoStephen]

Quite a churn in some of the original employee's too a few years back - some of which was witnessed here in the forum.Huh? What's your source on that? I don't think that's true at all. I don't have the actual stats, but my impression is that TiVo employees tend to stay employees far longer than average for a high tech company, and the forum folks are proof of that:

Here are the employees at TiVo who have posted on the forum at least once (from http://www.tivofaq.com/index.html?http://www.tivofaq.com/ForumTips.html#emps):

TiVoPony has been at TiVo for eight years, since the founding.
TiVoDataGuy has been at TiVo for over seven years.
I've been at TiVo for nearly seven years.
TiVoStore has been at TiVo for nearly six years.
TiVoJerry has been at TiVo for at least five years, maybe six now.
TiVoJason (talked in IRC chat about HMO, appeared on Weekend Warriors) has been at TiVo for six years.
TiVoShanan has been at TiVo for about three or four years.
TiVoLiz (posted a few times about rebates) has been at TiVo for three years.
TiVoDaniel (also posted about rebates a couple of times) has been at TiVo for two years.

All of the above are still employees.

TiVolutionary/TiVoRichard left for reasons of his own almost three years ago now. He had worked at TiVo for about four years.

TiVoKatya left after three years for reasons of her own. That was also about three or four years ago.

TiVoBill left a few months ago after working here over five years, mostly because of a startup opportunity that saved him having to drive for nearly an hour each way every day.

None of the above three departures fell in the time period you're talking about.

Cite your source, DocNo, because that's an ugly rumor to start.

--S.

[piper]

Piper, perhaps people should take a look at your authoritative statements about Copy protection flags and bandwidth requirements for HD in the "How does Tivo Compare to Comcast On Demand" thread. Although you seem to have learned your error about bandwidth (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3563516&&#post3563516), you really were quite mistaken about the other points, and went out of your way to be insulting about it.

I understand you have an axe to grind too, so let's just advocate the positions and do so honestly. What substantive thing did you have to add to this particular thread?

LOL - I rest my case.

Is this the thread where you cringe makingly accused me of being a liar (plus all the other things sadly edited out of existence)?

The thread where you also attempted to convince me that my own home movies are obviously 'copy protected'?

The thread where you lost the plot so badly you had to edit EVERY SINGLE ONE of your posts to remove all the insults and misrepresentations and outright psychotic outbursts?

Also, you need to do a bit more googling on cable download speeds before you drag up comments like the one above before I am forced to rev up the ridicule machine all over again.

[MickeS]

piper and Justin Thyme, maybe you could take your irrelevant fight to the sandbox. ;)

[Justin Thyme]

Okey dokey. Sand is fun.
See, now you're just making me laugh.
You're going to tell me how other DVRs can't succeed when they ARE prepared (and ready with cablecard support), but somehow TiVo is going to catch up next year and they don't have even 1/2 the marketing power of Sony???. I get it. This is really a discussion about Tivo's business model versus that of Sony, or Apple, or Comcast, and how their model is going to make mincemeat of Tivo's model. Is that the discussion you want to have? Because you are mistaken in your conclusions.

You can't have it both ways. If Tivo was stupid for not coming out with more HD support early, then everyone was.

But Tivo did have an HD solution. I guess you were not enough of an HD or Tivo Junkie to want it enough. Now you don't want to jump for an HD DirecTivo. Fine. Buy an MCE or an Apple Mini. Pay about a thousand bucks.

But neither will allow you to record HD off Dish.

Things sure were getting quiet during the holidays. There was so little excitement like these joyous and well reasoned posts. WHy am I not surprized we have a sudden surge of FUD posters a week before CES?

Let the games begin!

[TiVoPhish]

Functions don't just appear out of nowhere. TiVo has to prioritize their development efforts. You still haven't made a good case why they should have prioritized development of an application that at the very most could be used by 4% of the computer literate population, and that would have to be provided for free at that, AND which only provides peripheral functionality that TiVo barely advertises in the first place, and that TiVo (through no fault of their own) doesn't even provide to a large portion of their existing customer base anyway (DirecTiVo). Wouldn't it make sense to initially focus the efforts on the other 96% of computer users?

With all the times that's gone by, I'd hardly call it a priority... and never said they should have made it a priority... but rolling it out EVENTUALLY would have AT LEAST been nice.... especially when they learned of the iPod video (which chances are, they knew well ahead of the general public).

Considering the buzz Apple has created, I'd want to be ahead of the curve... not behind.

None of the free iTMS video content has any kind of value other than as a curiosity, or as a marketing tool (previews, one-off shows, podcasts, music videos). Maybe that will change, but I highly doubt it. Like I said, none of Apple's actions so far indicate any willingness to create an easy system for people to get premium content for free.

Maybe not to you, but I've found quite a few things of value for free. So has my daughter. Putting my own video on there has been a breeze (had that done in the first few hours of getting it home). I also know this is only in it's infancy since it all just started. I expect they'll be a lot more pay and free stuff available as time goes on.

Maybe you should direct your anger more towards Apple's lack of a DVR than TiVo's lack of Apple supprt.

Not angry, frustrated... there's a difference.
Read above, Apple got a DVR in the works quite obviously (and available for those willing to explore the SDK realm).

And since this is a TiVo forum, and my rant was about TiVo, why would I rant about Apple. It could easily be Sony or Microsoft I'm talking about instead. But since Apple is the one right now really grabbing on to the media market, doesn't it just make SENSE for TiVo to provide that support? They are GOING TO... it's the fact that they are slow to deliver I have a problem with because it's BAD FOR THEM (which trickles down to being BAD FOR US).

Sounds similar to the sync function in WMP10 which is used by several brands of portable video players. What's your point? That even Apple realizes that they can't charge people for everything? If so, you're correct.

Not sure what you're driving at... but complaining about how $1.99 for video is too expensive and not recognizing lots of free content available isn't a fair argument to make.... THAT was my point.

By the way, I seem to recall that the problem is that Apple is using some kind of proprietary mpeg-2 codec that they won't allow TiVo to use, so TiVo have to write their own. Can't back that claim up though, but I'm pretty sure that's how it was.

Quicktime will take ANY video and convert it for iPod quickly, painlessly and easy. Isn't it the .tivo format that is proprietary???

I can rip DVDs with iTunes too. That doesn't take away from the fact that everything in the iTunes system, including video, is set up to primarily support a pay-per-download model.

And they've been successful at it -- so what's your point? That Apple knows how to make money and TiVo doesn't? It adds VALUE to TiVo to support the VERY popular iPod, so why are you even arguing about this?

How ANYONE here can deny the buzz Apple has created, even if you hate them, is beyond me. Do you want TiVo to stay in business and success the way Apple has, or flounder because you and Justin are die-hard fans that are content to hack but could give a rat's ass about the average consumer??

TiVo was SET UP with the average consumer in mind -- not geeks like you and me and Justin. If geeks were going to make them success, they'd be doing a lot better... but they have NOT supported the average consumer and to deny ANY user, even the lowly 4% of Mac people (and that number is projected to grow) and the however many million iPod users is ridiculous. How can you make a logical argument about doing so?

Of course it doesn't hurt them, if they had nothing else on their plate. They're coming out with iPod and PSP support IIRC (announced fairly recently), they've got the HD stuff, CableCard stuff they're working on... I just don't see how it makes sense busineswise to focus limited resources on developing applications for a niche-market (and remember, many Mac users own a PC too!), before they've added other products that will directly affect their sales.

I never said to focus limited resources on developing apps for niche markets. Leave Justin to that since he's ready to have me set up multiple TiVos to one TV and hack them to death. I'm suggesting GOOD BUSINESS which is making iPod and HD Support a huge priority, and iPod support includes making the Apple people happy... not just consumers, but the corporation. Promising support for a year and never delivering isn't a good way to do business for ANY company... and I have no confidence iPod support is coming soon when they promised Mac support so long ago, and HD support what seems like ages ago (and projections are for mid to late 2006).

[piper]

piper and Justin Thyme, maybe you could take your irrelevant fight to the sandbox. ;)

No thanks, he's not a very friendly (or stable) person - wait till he starts making threats and you'll see what I mean. I'll just drop out of the thread instead.

Talking to him honestly gives me the worrrying "I'm dealing with a nutter" feeling and thank GOD I don't live in the same town as him is all I can say.

Assuming I don't live in the same town as him.

[TiVoPhish]

Okey dokey. Sand is fun.
I get it. This is really a discussion about Tivo's business model versus that of Sony, or Apple, or Comcast, and how their model is going to make mincemeat of Tivo's model. Is that the discussion you want to have? Because you are mistaken in your conclusions.

Wow, you are that stupid that it took you THIS LONG to get the point? I didn't think you were that thick, I though you were intentionally being rude.

You can't have it both ways. If Tivo was stupid for not coming out with more HD support early, then everyone was.

Uh no. See there is HD support, it's just not TiVo... it's resident to the providers themselves. See my relayed experience above about how cable, even with their TiVo promotion, STILL tried HARD to get me to use their own DVR (and succeeded, but with the catch I get a free TiVo).

But Tivo did have an HD solution. I guess you were not enough of an HD or Tivo Junkie to want it enough. Now you don't want to jump for an HD DirecTivo. Fine. Buy an MCE or an Apple Mini. Pay about a thousand bucks.

You like to repeat yourself a lot, which of course makes me repeat myself to you with the answers you don't want to hear. I won't repeat them again since you seem to be too dense (or rude) to listen.

But neither will allow you to record HD off Dish.

Duh.

Things sure were getting quiet during the holidays. There was so little excitement like these joyous and well reasoned posts. WHy am I not surprized we have a sudden surge of FUD posters a week before CES?

Let the games begin!

Glad you think it's a game. The success of TiVo as a company is ACTUALLY important to me, and in case you haven't noticed, they don't get there because you can hack your box. Poke fun at Apple (or anyone) all you want -- their business model in recent times has proven VERY successful, while I'm fearful for TiVo's future (along with lots of others who follow stocks and financials).

Unlike you, all I can hope is that TiVo listens and takes the criticism of any of it's customers as constructive... I'd imagine they are a lot more business-minded than you.

[MickeS]

Buzz for the iPod does not translate into sales for TiVos if they create Macintosh support. The vast majority of iPod users don't have Mac. TiVo has already announced support for the iPod, on PC. That's where the money is.

Apple got a DVR in the works quite obviously (and available for those willing to explore the SDK realm).

Oh come on now... you said "in the works" wasn't allowed as an argument in favor of TiVo, you're not gonna cheat and use that as support for Apple now are you? ;)

But since Apple is the one right now really grabbing on to the media market, doesn't it just make SENSE for TiVo to provide that support?

You're using "Apple" as synonymous with "iPod", which of course isn't the case. TiVo is rightly trying to reach the iPod market. They are rightly holding off on the Mac market.

I have no confidence iPod support is coming soon when they promised Mac support so long ago, and HD support what seems like ages ago (and projections are for mid to late 2006).

We'll see. I have no idea.

[Justin Thyme]

By the way, I seem to recall that the problem is that Apple is using some kind of proprietary mpeg-2 codec that they won't allow TiVo to use, so TiVo have to write their own. Can't back that claim up though, but I'm pretty sure that's how it was. Actually, their Mpeg2 codec has been broken since it first came out, as noted here. (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3360155&&#post3360155) Also, Apple refuses to allow third parties to use Fairplay, in order to block competitors to iTunes. If you want to offer DRM protected music on an iPod, the music company can go to only one distributor: Apple iTunes. Some would call that a vertical monopoly scenario of illegal tieing. Whatever it is. It is a ruthless and smart business move.

It makes it difficult for other vendors to provide content and interoperability with Apple products, but maybe that's the idea.

[TiVoPhish]

Buzz for the iPod does not translate into sales for TiVos if they create Macintosh support. The vast majority of iPod users don't have Mac. TiVo has already announced support for the iPod, on PC. That's where the money is.

And not at all friendly to Apple as a corporation. And guess what? *I* use my iTunes exclusively on Macs, so there's one customer they aren't satisfying. And basic demographics tell you the for every 1 unhappy customer you lose 20. Not saying I'll go around bad mouthing them, but there are those who would.

and ps. TiVo doesn't OFFER iPod support yet, not for PC either. I think I addressed that already, and how my confidence is way down.

What's going to happy if Apple offers a PVR with native iPod support before TiVo managed to roll out THEIR iPod support, or even Mac support they've promised for a year?


Oh come on now... you said "in the works" wasn't allowed as an argument in favor of TiVo, you're not gonna cheat and use that as support for Apple now are you? ;)

That puts them about equal now doesn't it -- and it becomes a "race" to see who gets there first. TiVo could have (and should have) already been there, and that's my point.

You're using "Apple" as synonymous with "iPod", which of course isn't the case. TiVo is rightly trying to reach the iPod market. They are rightly holding off on the Mac market.

Nope, I'm not at all. The point your missing is that sometimes, just sometimes, if you make a big corp like Apple happy they let you play with them... and that could have been VERY good for TiVo. Proving they cared about the Mac people, however few their are, is good for business... especially when you're a company that needs all the business it can get.

[Justin Thyme]

Re: is this about competing business models?
Wow, you are that stupid that it took you THIS LONG to get the point? I didn't think you were that thick, I though you were intentionally being rude.**
I thought you wanted to solve some problems you were having getting video to your video iPod and getting HD video to your mac laptop.

I provided you inexpensive solutions for both. And you should be happy being a Tivo Junkie, because both use Tivos.

If you have some other solution to your problem which costs less, let's hear it.

**Actually, you were rude to Zeo first (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3624154&&#post3624154), but who's keeping score.

[TiVoPhish]

I thought you wanted to solve some problems you were having getting video to your video iPod and getting HD video to your mac laptop.

I provided you inexpensive solutions for both. And you should be happy being a Tivo Junkie, because both use Tivos.

If you have some other solution to your problem which costs less, let's hear it.

You've provided NO reasonable solution to getting an HD Tivo that also allows network connection and TTG/laptop/iPod support.

For what you suggested, that convoluted cumbersome setup, well I've already found a cheaper, easier, more consumer-friendly solution... but maybe you should learn to read.

And it's the identical solution MOST people will go to, which will put TiVo out of business unfortunately.

But we'll see. I'll be the guinea pig for now... fine by me.

[DocNo]

Why not be honest with everyone Dr. No. Your also are a big fan of the Apple approach of paid video download off the net. I don't have any problem with people advocating their favorite solution, but posing as a "die hard" "Tivo Junkie" who clearly couldn't be bothered to use existing HD solution for the past years to get HD is a little beyond the pale.

Where is it written that "die hard tivo junky" has to equal someone willing to hack and possibly destroy their box in an unsupported way to get desired functionality? Because that's the only way you can get a TTG HD solution right now.

And I'm not necessarily a fan of paid download off the net. I'm not necessarily a fan of DVR's.

I am a fan of getting high quality content, without commercials, with little hassle.

If Tivo can do that for me, great. If Apple does it for me via ITMS, great. If someone else does it even better (say Replay - hahaha... OK, I keed) then more power to them!

Taking content from Tivo, stripping the commercials and then burning to DVD takes time. Time I'd rather spend elsewhere. I don't mind paying a nominal fee if this is done for me since, to quote an overused cliche, time is money.

Pretty reasonable, no? See, I'm solutions oriented, not kool-aid oriented. For example, I use Mac's and PC's because they each serve certain purposes. Mainly the Mac's to get work done with no problem and the PC's to remind me why I keep the Mac's, but that's another show ;)

As for Apple. $1.99 for downloaded video is ridiculous.

Yup, we agree. And I have stated as much every time I have posted. To be even plainer: it's the right technical direction, however the pricing is currently out of whack, esp. at the resolutions currently being provided (that's also why there are no downloaded shows from ITMS on my iPod video too). Doesn't have to stay that way. However, if lots of people keep paying it (and lots are) why should they lower it? Charge what the market will bare and all that. It's too high for me right now - time will tell if Apple is the right fit, or if it is someone else.

This is a solution? This is something to hold our breaths for.

Eventually, sure! It is the future. May not look anything at all what the market looks like today - it's day 1 essentially, so shouldn't be a surprise there. Broadband is the future delivery system. SBC, Comcast and all the traditional media providers know it. Heck, others are figuring it out - witness Cisco buying Scientific Atlanta. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where it's all heading. The wild card are the leftovers of Ma Bell and what they do with their lobbying in congress, but that's another show too....

Perfect right now? Heck no! But it's a start. Certainly where I would like to see it going. Doesn't mean I am going to chuck my Tivo any time soon, and it doesn't mean that Tivo can't go in the same direction - NetFlix has been rumored for some time. But we run into the same problems - rumors, and no delivery. I'm sure Tivo wants to deliver content - we have seen them experiment with it, experiments that worked and are working perfectly for me. Competition is good! I look forward to seeing where it plays out, if Tivo can deliver. Key word is deliver. Doesn't matter if it is a technical problem, negotiating with content providers problem or whatever the reason - it doesn't matter, Tivo will either have it or they won't. Apple does have something now, even if it currently sucks on the price/quality scale. At least it's there and making headway, getting market and mindshare. Here's to hoping for some exciting announcements at CES!

Yay! gee! an inexpensive intel based cpu with the grunt to play MP4 downloaded from the net at what? $5.99 a pop for an episode of whatever HD episodes NBC is grinding out? Yay! Here, maybe I should just hand Apple my credit cards and checkbook.

Well, I don't think $5.99 per episode will fly - never have. There also isn't the bandwidth currently available for high-res HD to be reasonable either. But it's coming - less than 20 miles away from me Verizon FIOS is being deployed all over - it's coming to my area within the next year (hopefully ;) - it's what they claim anyway )

For a few years the Phisher here could have been enjoying recorded HD along with all the free HD video desired on a mac laptop, with all the video they wanted on a really nice portable video player like archos's 16x9 7 inch player. OK, so DirecTv made it somewhat inconvenient by blocking the features on the HD DTivo.

But that's just an insane solution - having to hack your box, on top of that one that is obsolete because it doesn't support MP4. I realize neither is directly Tivo's fault, but in the end it doesn't matter. The shortcomings are still there. Doesn't mean I have to like it, nor does it mean that I want to continue to spend the time to maintain such a setup and can't wish/push/demand/drive for something better. Ditto for Phisher.

Luckily HD adoption has been somewhat lackluster, and the big HD bloom doesn't seem to have developed this Christmas, but sooner or later it will. I just hope Tivo is there to catch it, since I really do like their solution for what it currently does. I do sympathize with Tivo's predicament re: HD digital signals. At least with Cable Card they have a chance. Dunno if you will ever get the satellite guys to play ball without the FCC mandating - or enough people dumping D* or Dish for CC Tivo's. I don't see that happening either, tho :(

Maybe you two are right. Maybe people can't be botherred with mailing in rebates, who don't care if the solution costs way over a thousand dollars, and if you have to pay $1.99 for low resolution (320x240) content.

Personally, free video with no strings attached sounds a lot better to me.

Well, that's what's great about this country. You can choose to spend your time to get the above for "free". Me, I can buy turn-key content and not have to spend my time getting it. That's the model I would rather have long term. Nope, it isn't there yet - as you (and I) pointed out, cost and size aren't there. But the only thing that stays the same in the electronics world is the pace of change. I said it before, and I'll say it again - I really look forward to 2006 :)

BTW - you wouldn't happen to have any Good Eats season passes, would you? ;)

[DocNo]

Huh? What's your source on that? I don't think that's true at all. I don't have the actual stats, but my impression is that TiVo employees tend to stay employees far longer than average for a high tech company

OK, so that didn't come out the way I intended - I was going more towards the typical problems a startup company faces when key players churn - and granted the forum reference was over the top. Point taken - got caught up in the heat of the moment and it could have been phrased better.

[ZeoTiVo]

since the correct quote by Jobs is "This is the year of HD editing" If TiVo can provide HD content to a Mac and support the best resolution possible on the iPod video (both very likely in 2006) then TiVo will be miles ahead of any other DVR unless Apple anounces its own HD DVR at CES, which I think unlikely. I think they will continue with a mini that can organize and play all kinds of media and download it easily from iTunes for a price. and oh yah, we have some recording software we may do some more work on after we finish making iTunes the prominent store for video.

yes that was talked about a while back and is what I was referring to in talking about the mini really being more of a media player and front end to iTunes. "TiVo like" was used generously. The Apple software for recording shows is just not very advanced yet, It does not seem to be Apple's focus for the mini.

Wasn't the point of the thread. Someone who replied brought up that Apple wasn't going to make a DVR and pretty much accused me of not reading enough and knowing what I was talking about.

it is one thing to just ignore the facts and rant on but another thing to satrt bending replies around to match up with your rants. Read my quotes and tell me where I said Apple was not going to make a DVR.
and you still do not get it that even Apple can not make an HD recorder that will effeciently record from your Dish Receiver unless Dish decides to work a deal with them.

You are stuck with the Dish DVR if you wish to stay with Dish, plain and simple.
The current SA TiVo will be able to push video to an iPod video early next year. TiVo will have a better HD DVR solution than Apple next year.

[TiVoPhish]

it is one thing to just ignore the facts and rant on but another thing to satrt bending replies around to match up with your rants. Read my quotes and tell me where I said Apple was not going to make a DVR.
and you still do not get it that even Apple can not make an HD recorder that will effeciently record from your Dish Receiver unless Dish decides to work a deal with them.

You are stuck with the Dish DVR if you wish to stay with Dish, plain and simple.
The current SA TiVo will be able to push video to an iPod video early next year. TiVo will have a better HD DVR solution than Apple next year.

You should catch up instead of just hitting "reply". Apple already has an SDK that makes recording HD possible. No idea of further details than that really, but I wouldn't count Apple out.

I already decided in this thread right here to give up Dish, but it certainly didn't solve the TiVo dilema, unfortunately. What TiVo will offer and when, vs. what I'll have already purchased by that point will remain to be seen now. I hope to be able to migrate back to TiVo for all my HD DVR needs, but right now, today, it's not the solution.

Really, read back if you like... I don't say that to be glib... but even TiVo's "partnerships" are working against them as per my very interesting phone call with cablevision tonight.

[Justin Thyme]

Where is it written that "die hard tivo junky" has to equal someone willing to hack and possibly destroy their box in an unsupported way to get desired functionality? PVRUpgrade can do the mod for them. No "possibly destroy" about it. And they offer a warranty on their work.

I just don't believe TivoPhish is sincere about having done any homework.
If/when my cable company is supported by TiVo or vice versa, well then I'd have to consider it. That's currently not the case though... nor have I heard plans for it. Maybe that will change, maybe not.

Ya know, I might have thanked you Justin for forcing me to look a lot of things up today, and finding out that Cablevision (my local cable provider) is "test marketing" a box with TiVo on it... one capable of HDTV.

Cablevision has a Cablecard. This is not breaking news. Pogue reported the cost of a cablevision card at $1.25 per month last year. (http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-3000-0-10.html?forumID=104&threadID=54218&messageID=646267&start=-1)

So the CC HD Tivo is indeed a solution for TivoPhish. If it is fair to talk about some vague future capability suggested by some vague Apple SDK HD function, then it is fair to talk about the CC HD Tivo.

What exactly the existing Mac Setup that TivoPhish was refering to is unknown- it wasn't stated. We do know that the Mac Mini can't handle MPEG4 playback reliably. So TivoPhish's existing platform- whatever it is - is going to cost a lot more than the DirecTivo HD solution that was passed on a few years ago because it cost too much.

And the only think lacking in all this- the reason to pay the extra thousand or the reason Tivo "missed the boat" is the ability to move HD video from the DVR to the laptop? Gee. I don't think many consumers can relate to that sentiment.

When Apple finally announces an Intel based Mini with enough horsepower, unless Apple buys a carrier, Apple's library of HD downloads is still going to be very meager compared to what you can get off of Cable with a CC HD Tivo. Plus the box is going to cost a lot more than the Tivo hardware and have the generic problems with stability than any general purpose computing platform will have when it is pressed into service to doing a realtime software task which also must run while unknown other consumer installed applications are running.

Sure NBC is eager to partner with Apple in order to explore the PPV over IP market. Yet the networks and other content vendors aren't going to get married to any platform, and they are going to as eagerly sell their content to MCE, Linplayer2, and the Tivo Platform.

It will be very interesting to hear what Realnetworks and Microsoft have cooked up in this regard, so many months after their having kissed and made up.

[DocNo]

PVRUpgrade can do the mod for them. No "possibly destroy" about it. And they offer a warranty on their work.

It's still unsupported! No guarantee that D* and/or Tivo won't release a software update that kills modified boxes.

The complaint about an integrated solution is a valid one, even if you don't agree.

I just don't believe TivoPhish is sincere about having done any homework.

Irrelevant to the point that Tivo still doesn't have a viable HD solution. Hopefully this CES will finally put this thorn to bed! Nothing would make me happier than to sent the invoice for a CC Tivo to D* pointing out they could be keeping me as a customer if they had a solution for HD that involved Tivo. Ditto for Dish...

[Justin Thyme]

Well, CC HD Tivo is a good solution. Maybe there will be other CC DVRs out in force. But who will be able to offer what the poster was requesting: PC playback of HD content captured from a carrier's offerings? Microsoft won Cablecard Certification with it's protected video cache support, but Apple isn't on the map, so we will only looking to MS and Tivo this year for being able to play carrier captured HD content.

It's still unsupported! No guarantee that D* and/or Tivo won't release a software update that kills modified boxes.

The complaint about an integrated solution is a valid one, even if you don't agree.The complaint is a generic one. No one provides a solution that fit what the poster wanted. The complaint was extended to a diatribe on Tivo's supposed lack of initiative with HD solutions. If that is fair, then it is fair to say that all the third party CE vendors have failed.

There is a solution for the poster, but it is not for everyone. That's fair. Upgrading your Tivo storage is also not supported but it is just as trivial and everyone does it. Sure it is not an "integrated" solution, it is an aftermarket one and it is easy to do if you want to.

Although it is fair to say some folks may not want to do it, it is not fair as you suggested that people have to run the risk of destroying their box. If someone is a self described Tivo fanatic, availing themselve of PVRupgrade years ago would not have been too much trouble to go to. Really, if "Die Hard" is how hardcore this user describes themself, then hey, that upgrade is trivial.

It is also not accurate that Tivo could release something that could foul up the DirecTv HDTivo. DirecTv controls the software updates, not Tivo. Further, it is not clear why DirecTv would bother with such a small group of users.

To counterpoint this existing solution, the poster claimed that an Apple solution will come out that solves their problem.

If that is fair, then it is fair to cite the CC HD Tivo, that it will work with Cablevision since Cablevision will rent the poster a Cablecard that will work with it for $1.25/month.

Sure Apple had a good first month with early adopters for video Downloads. When we will see how many are actually paying $1.99 in the 3rd and 6th months, then we will know if people are willing to buy their average 7 hours per person per day in such an a la carte fashion. Let's see. 7 times $1.99 but no- those were half hour shows. so it will be 14 times $1.99, so $28 per day, per viewer in the house.

Oh yeah. that's just for 320x240 content. Those numbers may make sense to the networks, but I don't see a lot of Apple users being enthusiastic about it. It will have to come down to the daily costs of digital cable- less than $2 per day, so you are talking 14 cents per 30 minute episode for a single viewer household- less for typical households. And this will have to be SD quality- at least 480x480, not the sub VHS quality they are selling now on iTunes. For HD content? At 4x the bandwidth cost, they will have to charge at least 56 cents per half hour. Will the content folks be comfortable allowing that content onto a platform where it theoretically could be copied by a determined hacker? Is 56 cents enough of an incentive to take the risk?

You tell me. It doesn't look especially great for Apple. But maybe they will surprise everyone, come out with a cablecard for an Intel Mini, and totally cannibalize their iTMS business.

[TiVoPhish]

Well, CC HD Tivo is a good solution. Maybe there will be other CC DVRs out in force. But who will be able to offer what the poster was requesting: PC playback of HD content captured from a carrier's offerings? Microsoft won Cablecard Certification with it's protected video cache support, but Apple isn't on the map, so we will only looking to MS and Tivo this year for being able to play carrier captured HD content.

You keep saying it like you know, or like it's true. Considering it already CAN record HD content (hacked, like the HD DirectTivo), it's not a stretch by anyone's imagination. I know you like to ignore what I say though.

I don't KNOW they will be on the map or not, neither do you.

The complaint is a generic one. No one provides a solution that fit what the poster wanted. The complaint was extended to a diatribe on Tivo's supposed lack of initiative with HD solutions. If that is fair, then it is fair to say that all the third party CE vendors have failed.

Except TiVo is supposedly the leader, on the cutting edge and should be leading the pack, not following along behind. Like I said earlier, maybe there are technical difficulties not their fault, but there are certainly mistakes they've made as well. As long as cable and satellite companies provide their own DVRs and keep improving them to be more "TiVo-like" the bigger problem TiVo is going to have in surviving.

There is a solution for the poster, but it is not for everyone. That's fair. Upgrading your Tivo storage is also not supported but it is just as trivial and everyone does it. Sure it is not an "integrated" solution, it is an aftermarket one and it is easy to do if you want to.

Did you know there's already an HD DVR that does support firewire harddrives, and there's no setup. You simply plug it in, the unit recognizes the drive, formats it and you're ready to go. Supported, not a hack, integrated.... oh, and it comes from a cable company. THESE are exactly the types of difficulties TiVo is going to face the more time ticks by.

Although it is fair to say some folks may not want to do it, it is not fair as you suggested that people have to run the risk of destroying their box. If someone is a self described Tivo fanatic, availing themselve of PVRupgrade years ago would not have been too much trouble to go to. Really, if "Die Hard" is how hardcore this user describes themself, then hey, that upgrade is trivial.

You are not keeping the average consumer in mind at all. They don't even get as far about worrying about destroying their box... they just don't have the ambition to get on the net, search for the answer, find all the diagrams/documents, and "hack" their box. Geeks like you and me, maybe... the average consumer? Absolutely not. It's a convenience issue, a fear issue, a know-how issue and certainly an issue not even worth discussing the more features other DVRs start to offer natively (like external hard drive support for example).

It is also not accurate that Tivo could release something that could foul up the DirecTv HDTivo. DirecTv controls the software updates, not Tivo. Further, it is not clear why DirecTv would bother with such a small group of users.

I didn't say TiVo would release anything that fowls anything up. Hope you're not referring to mpeg-4 because that's all DirectTV. They have no ties to keeping their TiVo boxes running, and no plans to (at least currently).

To counterpoint this existing solution, the poster claimed that an Apple solution will come out that solves their problem.

Nope... I claimed it was possible. Like I said above, neither you nor I know if that's true or not and only time will tell. Considering current SDKs, rumors and the direction their headed, it's easy to see how it's possible.

If that is fair, then it is fair to cite the CC HD Tivo, that it will work with Cablevision since Cablevision will rent the poster a Cablecard that will work with it for $1.25/month.

But this is where it all goes sour. Considering Cablevision is CURRENTLY RUNNING A TIVO PROMOTION to try to get satellite customers to abandon Dish and DTV, since there was a big press release about how Cablevision would "test market" TiVo and how great it would be, they certainly were doing everything to NOT honor their own promotion.... and pushing their own HD-Ready DVR.... toting it as "much better" than TiVo. They don't even GIVE you a TiVo box... just a coupon for a free SA unit (rumored to be an 80 hour series 2 without CC support)... and while you're waiting for it to arrive your HD DVR is already set up. That's a good test-market, don't you think? (NOT!) It's not a promo meant to work in TiVo's favor if you ask me, especially since TiVo is giving the unit away for free and at a reduced subscription rate.

I wonder how many average never-owned a TiVo users got that sales rep on the phone and never GOT their TiVo coupon because they were convinced by that same sales rep that cablevisions DVR was "so much better" than TiVo. This guy ARGUED with me about it and I had to insist for probably 25 minutes before he agreed to give me the coupon. Sure, this is a "partnership" good for TiVo.... but how?

Maybe I'm wrong and my experience was just an anomoly. Somehow, I doubt it. By the time HD CC TiVo rolls out in 3, 6 or 9 months, how many cablevision customers will have already been sold on the HD DVR (with external native hard drive support, seasons passes, 1 hour buffer and two tuners)?

(I KNOW it's not TiVo, not making that argument for those of us already TiVo-addicted -- think about the vast amount of cable customers who just don't know and who will NOT be sold on paying another $12.95 per month for what they see as exactly the same).

Sure Apple had a good first month with early adopters for video Downloads. When we will see how many are actually paying $1.99 in the 3rd and 6th months, then we will know if people are willing to buy their average 7 hours per person per day in such an a la carte fashion. Let's see. 7 times $1.99 but no- those were half hour shows. so it will be 14 times $1.99, so $28 per day, per viewer in the house.

I don't think Apple current model is meant to replace live television.

Did you know that Cablevision is rumored to have plans to make ALL channels VOD and offer server-based TiVo-like funtions?

PPV and VOD are here to stay, so get used to it. The model and pricing will be constantly evolving and changing at this point, but this IS the way people are going to want their content delivered. Yes, LOTS of people will pay $.99 or $1.99 or more to get what they want when they want it, especially commercial free. People rent movies don't they? People rent PPV don't they? For crying out loud, when there's a market for $29.99 Howard Stern PPVs that millions will slap their creditcards down for, you can't be serious about $1.99 episodes of a show everyone is raving about and loves.

Watch and learn -- VOD is where it's going.

Oh yeah. that's just for 320x240 content. Those numbers may make sense to the networks, but I don't see a lot of Apple users being enthusiastic about it. It will have to come down to the daily costs of digital cable- less than $2 per day, so you are talking 14 cents per 30 minute episode for a single viewer household- less for typical households. And this will have to be SD quality- at least 480x480, not the sub VHS quality they are selling now on iTunes. For HD content? At 4x the bandwidth cost, they will have to charge at least 56 cents per half hour. Will the content folks be comfortable allowing that content onto a platform where it theoretically could be copied by a determined hacker? Is 56 cents enough of an incentive to take the risk?

It was enough for the music industry to take a risk on iTunes, which is perfectly hackable to remove DRM (and easily I might add -- but let me state before anyone jumps on me I don't advocate that kind of thing ;)). Quicktime supports HD natively now. It also support dumping to iPod natively. Costs will change and FOIS will open doors. You gripe about the prices but so did a lot of people when iTunes first rolled out with songs... and lots of people are paying and using iTunes as their music media hub.

You tell me. It doesn't look especially great for Apple. But maybe they will surprise everyone, come out with a cablecard for an Intel Mini, and totally cannibalize their iTMS business.

You are asleep or under a rock if you think it doesn't look good for Apple right now. It couldn't look better for them. Every day I see iPods around me and hear of 5-year-olds asking for them for Christmas. I cannot remember the last time even an adult knew what TiVo was (without being someone I'd already told about it). They have built (and are building) the relationships necessary to make this work and have been succeeding. Apple may just be big-sighted enough to know there will have to be balance between pay-per-download and free content, and support for live television recording. Maybe not. Time will tell.

Everyone is scrambling to compete with Apple and Apple business model right now and I agree with DocNo... 2006 will be an interesting year.

[rainwater]

Ok, this thread has officially lowered my I.Q. The original poster wants a solution that is not possible and wants to blame TiVo for not offering a viable solution to a impossible problem. Arguing about it on the TiVo forums is a waste of time.

[Justin Thyme]

The original poster is spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt in favor of a hoped for Apple solution. You heard it here first. VOD (or rather Pay Per View) is the wave of the future. iPod buzz = DVR buzz. People are willing to buy watch-one-time video just like they buy use-many-times music? Hmmm. Maybe, but that means a lot of $$$ out of pocket as I pointed out above.

I would have hoped Apple would have come out with a cablecard DVR, but it looks like they are stuck on the iPod/iTunes model. Pretty sad really. They didn't switch to intel fast enough.

For the last years since the poster had their HDTV, the original poster could have had everything they wanted with a Hughes DirecTivo and an SA Tivo hooked to their TV. With the exception of one feature. They could not play transfer HD content to their laptop.

For this last feature, they could have had PTVUpgrade upgrade their HD DirecTivo and they could have played all the HD they wanted on their laptop. Quite a large number of real die hard Tivo Junkies have kept PTVupgrade doing a brisk business in aftermarket Tivo solutions. For these real Tivo fans, this is no a big deal.

When and if DirecTv does make changes that make the HD DirecTivo obsolete, by that time the poster could buy a CC HDTivo and connect it to Cablevision for $1.25 per month.

Facts. as opposed to FUD.

[DreamSensei]

Hmm. So let me get this straight :

TivoPhish, a self-proclaimed "Tivo Junkie", which is obviously shown by his name, has stated the following rant :

"Wah wah wah wah wah I love Apple, PCs suck, wah wah wah thpppt."

Wake up Mr. Hippie. Apple is largely proprietary, and taking on that package of nonsense requires you to deal with it as thus.

I got my iPod 5G for Christmas from my girlfriend. I searched for maybe 10 minutes tops to find a converter for the Tivo files to iPod format. Did I install iTunes? Yeah, and it took about 5 MORE minutes out of my life. The Videora install took about another 3 minutes. I already had Tivo2Go installed like a good Tivo user, so that took me no time. I took something I'd already downloaded to my PC and ran it through the converter (7 minutes, maybe 30 mins if I hadn't alread downloaded it). Then I imported it to iTunes, and voila...Tivo on my iPod.

So, let's do the math, shall we?

10 + 5 + 3 + 7 = 25

That's 25 minutes of my life. Wow. I r teh so incunvenienzed.

Get a life. Suck it up like the rest of the Mac losers in the world and embrace the PC. Mac is never going to catch the PC again, ever.

As for the DVR issues you have with your TV/Satellite provider....DTV is still fairly new technology. For Tivo to deploy massive support to that particular technology at this phase would be a little ignorant, considering there's always something new around the corner. People in this thread have already stated solutions/workarounds to your specific problem, but all you seem capable of doing is picking a fight with them about it all. "Wah wah wah I can't have it EXACTLY the way I want it wah wah wah". Crap or get off the crapper. If you want it, go buy it. This is how commerce works anyway. If there's a demand for these sorts of things, then people will pay for them. As is, the demand isn't quite there yet.

Seriously, just deal with it all. Ranting here solves absolutely no problems for you other than inflating your ePeen. And if that's all you need, I suggest Usenet. The people on this forum are typically very friendly and helpful. They DON'T need a troll infesting their ranks.

[ZeoTiVo]

the codec used by quicktime seems to have been at issue in making TiVoToGo work. It may well have been Apple hampering efforts to make TiVoToGo work on a mac. Since TiVo is not looking to have a fued with another significant tech company they would have kept quiet about any of this.

The desktop compatible with Mac TiVo has slated for mid 2006 looks to be coming with its own codec which will solve this problem and make Desktop easier to use on any a PC as well.

In short do not think Apple was doing all it could to help TiVo, especially with their plans of the Mini being worked on.

This is the theme the OP is not getting. There were SIGNIFICANT technical hurdles to overcome in getting HD out for a Stand Alone that would work independent of a specific carrier. There were technical hurdles on making TTG work on a Mac. These are things the OP and others can ignore and go on there own view of the world. But business happens in reality and not everything just happens, people have to do the hard work to make it work.

so keep on with the easy work of ranting about things not fitting into your wants and I will keep on thanking TiVo for working hard to make a TiVo DVR the best one out there. 2006 is going to rock.

[MickeS]

This is the theme the OP is not getting. There were SIGNIFICANT technical hurdles to overcome in getting HD out for a Stand Alone that would work independent of a specific carrier. There were technical hurdles on making TTG work on a Mac.

Well put. Plus I still don't understand why this rant came AFTER the things he wants have been announceed. :)

[Welshdog]

Well put. Plus I still don't understand why this rant came AFTER the things he wants have been announceed. :)


This thread makes my brain hurt.

I did notice the OP stated that he/she is an art director.

Nuff sed. ;)

[TiVoShanan]

Huh? What's your source on that? I don't think that's true at all. I don't have the actual stats, but my impression is that TiVo employees tend to stay employees far longer than average for a high tech company, and the forum folks are proof of that:

Here are the employees at TiVo who have posted on the forum at least once (from http://www.tivofaq.com/index.html?http://www.tivofaq.com/ForumTips.html#emps):


TiVoShanan has been at TiVo for about three or four years.


--S.


Uhmm....... helllllllllllllooooooooo!

I have been at TiVo for FIVE... count 'em.. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 .... years this past August!


It's the second job of my "career."

Time flies, eh?!

[ZeoTiVo]

Uhmm....... helllllllllllllooooooooo!

I have been at TiVo for FIVE... count 'em.. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 .... years this past August!


It's the second job of my "career."

Time flies, eh?!

maybe TiVoOpsMgr was countinmg in elf years :D

at least there was finally a post worth reading in this thread

[limbo1001001]

DreamSensei is my new hero....after reading this thread,....finally a post that sums it all up.....BRILLIANT !


J

[TiVoShanan]

maybe TiVoOpsMgr was countinmg in elf years :D

at least there was finally a post worth reading in this thread


Hehehehe...

Yeh, he probably was.

Jingle Berry is hibernating until next Christmas...

Now the Snow Princess has entered Stage Right for some CHILL TIME... for those of you so inclined, anyway.

[TiVoPhish]

Whatever you all think about what I've said, your entitled to think it. But before you keep drinking your kool-aid and loving a piece of electronic equipment beyond common sense you should consider the reprocusions of all I've said. TiVo will be out of business in no time flat if what is currently happening continues.

Considering Cablevision "promised" to test-market TiVo, assumeably for TiVo themselves, if I worked for TiVo and read this thread, the FIRST thing I'd do is get on the phone with cablevision and ask why reps are toting their own DVR over the TiVo promotion being offered.

I'd also work HARD to get a CC unit ready to go along with these kinds of promotions. It's not too consumer friendly to be shipping out free boxes to people who are getting HD DVRs from the cable company themselves. And make no mistake, once someone sees HD on their large screen TV, they are NOT going to accept the quality through their sub-standard non-HD TiVo box. Yell at me all you want about CC HD Cards... they are CURRENTLY not available.

Put me down for my thoughts on Apple all you like. In case you haven't noticed EVERYONE is scrambling to support Apple right now and to get a piece of the market. I'm watching little kids walk around with their iPod videos, and 99% of their parents will not have the first clue how to get video from their TiVo onto their iPod -- because CURRENTLY it is not supported.

Vongo is working to get Apple to play with them... what is Vongo? A new subscription based network willing to offer unlimited movies to the iPod for $10.00 a month. Supposedly Microsoft is already on board. Whether Microsoft, Apple or anyone else comes out with a DVR that will also interface with an iPod and HD, well you SHOULD be worried, because TiVo has been slow to deliver.

And I'll repeat it again -- I say all this because I WANT TiVo to stay in business. I suppose all of you think you can't be patriotic if you question what your government is doing -- when in reality, that is what being TRULY supportive is all about. You don't just blindly follow, you register your vote, write your letters, and use your voice to express how things could be better.

[ZeoTiVo]

snipped out the tiresome TiVo should have had HD out years ago -duh stuff does not change the fact that only those with direct access to the digital signal could put one out.
Put me down for my thoughts on Apple all you like. In case you haven't noticed EVERYONE is scrambling to support Apple right now and to get a piece of the market. I'm watching little kids walk around with their iPod videos, and 99% of their parents will not have the first clue how to get video from their TiVo onto their iPod -- because CURRENTLY it is not supported. could you please tell us who is currently scrambling to support Apple. Might make a better argument if you named actual companies
Vongo is working to get Apple to play with them... what is Vongo? A new subscription based network willing to offer unlimited movies to the iPod for $10.00 a month. Supposedly Microsoft is already on board. Whether Microsoft, Apple or anyone else comes out with a DVR that will also interface with an iPod and HD, well you SHOULD be worried, because TiVo has been slow to deliver. :p um, TiVo was in talks with Apple and Apple told TiVo to get bent on porting shows to iPod and they are not returning Starz phone calls either. So guess what - Starz and its Vongo are putting out a windows based solution with Microsoft DRM to go to Windows portable media players. Your very exapmple is a classic of how Apple shuts out other players and has little interest in partnering up
And I'll repeat it again -- I say all this because I WANT TiVo to stay in business. I suppose all of you think you can't be patriotic if you question what your government is doing -- when in reality, that is what being TRULY supportive is all about. You don't just blindly follow, you register your vote, write your letters, and use your voice to express how things could be better.
no you can question what TiVo is doing all you want, we all are questioning what TiVo is doing - we all want dual tuners and HD and as much portability and download of content as possible and many of us would switch to a company that puts out soemthing better. But then we also read the answers given and incorporate that into better questions you just post the same tired question again and again and don't read the answers.

[TiVoPhish]

does not change the fact that only those with direct access to the digital signal could put one out.

Then tell me why Apple already has prototype software available to support recording HD? All the "rumoring" out there says LOTS of companies will be support HD recording soon. TiVo is trying to pick up where DirectTV is now going to fail them (since they won't be offering it anymore) but there are going to be many more options now. This is why I'm *worried* about TiVo.

could you please tell us who is currently scrambling to support Apple. Might make a better argument if you named actual companies

iSee is coming out. Vongo is in talks. Apple already has the connections with content providers, and their DRM scheme will help make sense to those providers (if you're worried about people recording and redistributing your programming, DRM is what you want, and what iTunes is already built upon). EyeTV already provides software to turn your Mac into a PVR. ULead has released iPod support. MammothHD has released support for the iPod. The movie industry is starting to offer iPod downloads of their trailors. Have you been paying attention? LOTS of people want to get in on the iPod game and are already doing it.

um, TiVo was in talks with Apple and Apple told TiVo to get bent on porting shows to iPod and they are not returning Starz phone calls either. So guess what - Starz and its Vongo are putting out a windows based solution with Microsoft DRM to go to Windows portable media players. Your very exapmple is a classic of how Apple shuts out other players and has little interest in partnering up

Vongo is still actively trying to get into discussion with Apple, and there's a reason for that. It will be their loss if Apple says go scratch.

Don't know why the talks with TiVo fell apart. It does make you wonder though, and with all the speculation about a DVR from Apple, it also makes sense.

no you can question what TiVo is doing all you want, we all are questioning what TiVo is doing - we all want dual tuners and HD and as much portability and download of content as possible and many of us would switch to a company that puts out soemthing better. But then we also read the answers given and incorporate that into better questions you just post the same tired question again and again and don't read the answers.

No, you just don't want to hear what I have to say because you disagree... and that's fine. But 95% of the consumers out there don't think about this so much, and when the cable salesman says "oh yeah, our box is BETTER than TiVo and there's no additional service fee and blah blah blah" they are just going to go with that box. Even ReplayTV has now jumped ship and is going to start to develop recording software for PCs... of which is available on both platforms already.

And here's the saddest part -- TiVo has set the standard that everyone now will make all the money on. Maybe it's not TiVos fault at all and it was doomed from the get-go, but I know that timing is everything. If my cable company is already offering a cablecard, TiVo should already have the box.

[rainwater]

This thread is like having a conversation with a tree.

[TiVoPhish]

This thread is like having a conversation with a tree.

Yeah pretty funny, since Trees are always growing.

On the other hand, rocks just lie there and erode.

[rainwater]

Yeah pretty funny, since Trees are always growing.

On the other hand, rocks just lie there and erode.

Seriously, I see absolutely no point to what you are saying. We all know that all home media devices are transitioning to digital. Thus you are seeing lots of new products coming out. I'm not sure why you think we are bowing down to TiVo and praying to it like its a God. TiVo definately has to come out with a HD version soon. This is not news to me or hopefully anyone else. Is Apple working on a HD DVR? Probably. So whats your point?

[ZeoTiVo]

Then tell me why Apple already has prototype software available to support recording HD? All the "rumoring" out there says LOTS of companies will be support HD recording soon. TiVo is trying to pick up where DirectTV is now going to fail them (since they won't be offering it anymore) but there are going to be many more options now. This is why I'm *worried* about TiVo. will you either show that the Apple DVR can record HD from a cable provider or sat. provider digtial channels or else come clean on it being OTA


iSee is coming out. Vongo is in talks. Apple already has the connections with content providers, and their DRM scheme will help make sense to those providers (if you're worried about people recording and redistributing your programming, DRM is what you want, and what iTunes is already built upon). EyeTV already provides software to turn your Mac into a PVR. ULead has released iPod support. MammothHD has released support for the iPod. The movie industry is starting to offer iPod downloads of their trailors. Have you been paying attention? LOTS of people want to get in on the iPod game and are already doing it. and aside from this mythic Apple DVR no other DVR maker is supporting portability to the iPod. You are not getting that I think the iPod is great and the buzz around portability is great, but to say TiVo is so far behind on iPod support as to hurt sales is just a Laugh Out Loud kind of thing. TiVo will be the first DVR to officially support the iPod


Vongo is still actively trying to get into discussion with Apple, and there's a reason for that. It will be their loss if Apple says go scratch.

Don't know why the talks with TiVo fell apart. It does make you wonder though, and with all the speculation about a DVR from Apple, it also makes sense. no it has nothing to do with the DVR, it has everything to do with Apple being proprietary and not wanting to license out its way of doing things. Good for Apple if they can make that work but stop posting like everyone is dissing Apple - it is the other way around.



No, you just don't want to hear what I have to say because you disagree... and that's fine. But 95% of the consumers out there don't think about this so much, and when the cable salesman says "oh yeah, our box is BETTER than TiVo and there's no additional service fee and blah blah blah" they are just going to go with that box. Even ReplayTV has now jumped ship and is going to start to develop recording software for PCs... of which is available on both platforms already.

And here's the saddest part -- TiVo has set the standard that everyone now will make all the money on. Maybe it's not TiVos fault at all and it was doomed from the get-go, but I know that timing is everything. If my cable company is already offering a cablecard, TiVo should already have the box.

are you aware that DVRs are only in 6% of homes. You keep posting like the business model is amturity and everyone has to fight for every percent of market share. Not so - the fight is for the whole industry to get another percent of total market share. Better for TiVo to make a good dual tuner HD box and deliver it next year then put out a bad one a a year ago. BTW is replay porting to the mac ?

[Justin Thyme]

Dan,

If/when my cable company is supported by TiVo or vice versa, well then I'd have to consider it. That's currently not the case though... nor have I heard plans for it. Maybe that will change, maybe not.TivoPhish. You were not aware of plans? You were not aware of the Cablecard Tivo? You were not aware that your own provider, Cablevision has had cablecards available for the last year for $1.25 a month? For someone who has awarded themself the title of die hard Tivo Junkie, that is a very surprizing failure to understand your nearby world.

If you are not even an authority on your own situtation, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously about a macro economics forecast of how the CE battle for DVRs is going to shake out? It is a little beyond the pale to accuse everyone else here of drinking kool, when the only evidence for such can be found closer to home.

If you would like to reclaim your credibility, you will have to base your arguments on something more than blunt assertions, put downs, and asking people to take your word for it.

http://www.cubcarson.com/mediac/400_0/media/bunny~with~pancake~head.jpg

[TiVoPhish]

TivoPhish. You were not aware of plans? You were not aware of the Cablecard Tivo? You were not aware that your own provider, Cablevision has had cablecards available for the last year for $1.25 a month? For someone who has awarded themself the title of die hard Tivo Junkie, that is a very surprizing failure to understand your nearby world.

Uh yeah, I was aware of all that, but guess what -- it is CURRENTLY NOT AVAILABLE. What part of that don't you get? In the meantime cablevision is touting it's OWN "better than TiVo" DVR that is already HD capable. Are you that thick to miss my point? Cablevision's CC is already READY, why isn't TiVo's HD box?

If you are not even an authority on your own situtation, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously about a macro economics forecast of how the CE battle for DVRs is going to shake out? It is a little beyond the pale to accuse everyone else here of drinking kool, when the only evidence for such can be found closer to home.

Ya know what Justin, I am an authority on my own situation. Just because I won't set up the convoluted setup you suggested doesn't mean I don't know what's going on in the Tech world. I think YOU need to read and catch up. DirectTV just announced they are going to offer their OWN DVR with DirectTV2Go -- sounds familiar, don't it? Also HD capable. Supposedly first quarter 2006.

TiVo is "coming soon coming soon" with all this -- well so is everyone else now. If you're Joe-Homeowner, which are you going to prefer... the FREE box with no additional subscription fee, or the additional TiVo + subscription that doesn't even offer HD yet? This isn't brain surgery.

And I've said over and over, it doesn't need to be Apple. Replace any big electronics company you like, or content provider if it suits you. Bottom line -- TiVo better catch up, and catch up quick. They are already struggling to survive, and no one here can argue that.

If you would like to reclaim your credibility, you will have to base your arguments on something more than blunt assertions, put downs, and asking people to take your word for it.

I didn't start the put-downs my friend. I simply raised a valid set of points. You cannot tell me where to go to buy an HD TiVo or an iPod-ready TiVo because those products DO NOT yet exist, at least from TiVo they don't.

I don't need to reclaim my credibility to you -- because somehow I think regardless of what I say you'd disagree anyway.

AND I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it. Do a google search on DVR + Apple, or Kaleidescope, or just "DVR" and you'll find lots of info about lots of companies doing lots of things.

"With this capability on modern day cable boxes, you would think that it would be fairly easy to record content, including HD content, on your computer using a simple FireWire cable. Unfortunately, it's not that easy. Despite the fact that support has been around for almost a year now, software to take advantage of the FCC mandated FireWire ports on cable boxes is still in a very infant stage. What is even more interesting is that an interface to FireWire enabled cable boxes is actually provided by Apple through their FireWire SDK. And although PCs have more recently been given a similar type of application, the support was first given to Macs.

"The application included in Apple's FireWire SDK is called Virtual D-VHS, which as the name implies, allows your Mac to act as a Virtual D-VHS recorder fully capable of recording both standard and High Definition content over your cable box's FireWire port."

source: http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2349&p=3

Taking the above into account, taking into account applications like Front Row, and EyeTV (and others!), it is not at all a stretch to think Apple will enter the DVR game -- the capability is absolutely there, and yes, capable of HD recording. Whether they take up that opportunity or not remains to be seen.

and ps... The former CEO of El Gato (who makes EyeTV) was slated to be back at Apple recently... which is an interesting development and yet another piece of the puzzle.




A bit off point: Guess what... to update you... I called TiVo today to find out what box it is I get for free with my Cablevision promo... and it's the currently available Series 2 non-HD-ready TiVo. I told the sales rep of Cable's determination to turn me off from TiVo and she agreed that it's like TiVo being stabbed in the back. My coupon is only good for 30 days, and she couldn't tell me the HD TiVo would be available in 30 days or not, or whether I could apply the coupon or not. In the meantime cablevisions DVR will be here and hooked up, equipped with "Seasons Passes", external hard-drive ready (no hack) and supporting HD. How many people were sucked into the Cablevision promo with them using the TiVo logo as a draw only to have their salesmen do everything possible to push their own DVRs?


It is a little beyond the pale to accuse everyone else here of drinking kool, when the only evidence for such can be found closer to home.

Look in the mirror. Just because I brought up valid arguments about Apple doesn't mean I drink their kool-aid. I've got Windows and Apple machines in this house, have bought my electronics from a variety of companies, and while I'll do everything I can to stick with TiVo I'm going to have no choice but to look elsewhere if they don't get on the ball soon.

And if they go out of business, you'll have no choice either.

[Justin Thyme]

Uh yeah, I was aware of all that, but guess what -- it is CURRENTLY NOT AVAILABLE. What part of that don't you get?
Oh you were aware of it? Let's look at that assertion. As you will recall, Dan took the time to explain to you (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3624164&&#post3624164) that the Cablecard Tivo would do what you wanted. In response, you told him that you had heard no plans that your Cable company would support Tivo.Dan,

If/when my cable company is supported by TiVo or vice versa, well then I'd have to consider it. That's currently not the case though... nor have I heard plans for it. Maybe that will change, maybe not.
It took me about two minutes to learn you were wrong about their plans. Not only does cablevision have plans, but they are ready today to give you a cablecard for 1.25 /month that will support the unit that Dan was telling you about.

Fact.

It is very difficult to be taken seriously if one cannot marshal facts concerning one's own situation, let alone admit when one has erred.

[TiVoPhish]

Oh you were aware of it? Let's look at that assertion. As you will recall, Dan took the time to explain to you (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3624164&&#post3624164) that the Cablecard Tivo would do what you wanted. In response, you told him that you had heard no plans that your Cable company would support Tivo.

How can the cablecard do what I want when there is no HD CC TiVo on the market yet? Did you smoke something before posting?

Since there is no HD CC TiVo yet available, please tell me if it support CC 1.0 or 2.0 and if it will be compatible with my Cablevision setup. Can you? No, you can't. I said there was no guarantee my cable company would support it. If you can point me to that guarantee, I'll happily apologize and say I was wrong.

It took me about two minutes to learn you were wrong about their plans. Not only does cablevision have plans, but they are ready today to give you a cablecard for 1.25 /month that will support the unit that Dan was telling you about.

Fact.

No kidding -- DUH. But does TiVo have a box I can plug it into yet? NO THEY DO NOT. Why should I get a Cablecard with no TiVo to yet plug it into??

It is very difficult to be taken seriously if one cannot marshal facts concerning one's own situation, let alone admit when one has erred.

Who's the one messing up facts here? I've been pretty clear all along, you just choose to not listen or to argue so you can be "right".

[Justin Thyme]

Focus on the subject. You said you knew of no plans to support such a tivo. You didn't bother to learn the facts about what your own cable company provides.

You don't even understand your own situation, yet you claim to know the secrets to the universe about DVR business models. Your treatment of the subject speaks for itself.

"Really, I say this all with love... LOL... can you feel it?" (source) (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3624110&&#post3624110)

[TiVoPhish]

Point to where I said it. I've know about the cablecard thing for a longtime. What I don't know (and you don't know) is if it will actually work with my cable provider or not. No way to know since there's no such TiVo box for me to plug it into.

And what Dan said was:

Now if you're willing to be a little more flexible then you have some options. One of them, available right now, is to switch to DirecTV. The other is to switch to cable in 4-6 months and get one of the new CableCARD units. (TiVo is also working with Comcast to put TiVo software on their leased DVRs)

Which I already replied to multiple times. The DirectTV thing is NOT a solution for reasons stated over and over. The other solution is to wait 4-6 months. How is THAT a solution?

I've already stated my solution. And just like the rebate thing, you can repeat yourself over and over, it doesn't make it anymore true. I understand my own situation quite fine... not willing to shell out $289 or $489 for an obsolete limited-function box to switch to another satellite company that has already dropped TiVo as it's primary DVR solution. I'd prefer to jump to cable and use their HD DVR for the time-being and HOPE TiVo's HD CC Unit comes out soon and that my cable company's card will be compatible and available.

If/when my cable company is supported by TiVo or vice versa, well then I'd have to consider it. That's currently not the case though... nor have I heard plans for it. Maybe that will change, maybe not...

Cablecard promises something that is yet to be available, so in theory it all sounds very nice, but not if only one company support it, or if the companies that do are always "out of stock" on the cards in favor of their own DVR...

With any luck, maybe when the new CC TiVos hit they will be compatible with my cable company's cablecard, which they claim is already available...

My cable provider (name already mentioned) already has a cablecard ready... but guess who doesn't have a box for it yet?? Yeah, that's right, TiVo...

if you're referring to my first quote, you misunderstood what I said, or I mistated what I meant. I have heard NO work from TiVo or Cablevision, no guarantee that their card will work, that the TiVo unit will work with it, and no date on when TiVo HD CC will be available. Neither have you.

[Justin Thyme]

Point to where I said it. I've know about the cablecard thing for a longtime. What I don't know (and you don't know) is if it will actually work with my cable provider or not. No way to know since there's no such TiVo box for me to plug it into.I already pointed several times. You said you knew of no plans to support such Tivos from your cable company. You didn't bother to look it up.

"No way to know since there's no such TiVo box for me to plug it into."?!?!?!

Yes there is a way to know. It's called CableLabs Certification, and FCC regulations.

Your comments on cablecard shows you really have no idea what you are talking about.

You seem to think that Cablevision has some discretionary options on whether they will or will not be compatible with Cablecard Tivos. They have no choice at all. The FCC orderred cable companies in 2003 to be compliant to Cablecard1.0. Tivo has a Cablecard 1.0 design certified by Cablelabs as a compliant host. So does Microsoft. That means when these certified devices are hooked up to a cable providers system, the cable supplier is bound by FCC regulations to make it work. They have no choice in the matter. This has slowly been developed in cooperation between CEA and the cablecos as fallout from the 1996 Telecom law that said that carriers had to provide third party access to their networks.

Clearly, you have no understanding of the cablecard standard, or you would not have attempted further FUD disinformation on whether CC Tivos will work with your local cable network.

[ZeoTiVo]

Uh yeah, I was aware of all that, but guess what -- it is CURRENTLY NOT AVAILABLE. What part of that don't you get? In the meantime cablevision is touting it's OWN "better than TiVo" DVR that is already HD capable. Are you that thick to miss my point? Cablevision's CC is already READY, why isn't TiVo's HD box?

I think YOU need to read and catch up. DirectTV just announced they are going to offer their OWN DVR with DirectTV2Go -- sounds familiar, don't it? Also HD capable. Supposedly first quarter 2006.

TiVo is "coming soon coming soon" with all this


so TiVo HD is CURRENTLY NOT AVAILABLE but we should all be worried that the coming soon for quite some time NDS HD box for DirectTV.

this is the double standard you employ that shoots your credibility all to pieces.
We can not speak of the ANNOUNCED plans for TiVo, we can not speak of the difficulties of getting a ratified Cable Card multistream standard
but
you can talk about all this coming stuff and an Apple HD DVR as certainty that will kill off TiVo.

just a big pile of BS that is not worth having around anymore. Justin - it would be best to just let this thread die off and sink so we can get rid of the stink.

[TiVoPhish]

I already pointed several times. You said you knew of no plans to support such Tivos from your cable company. You didn't bother to look it up.

You can see I quoted myself can't you? So I did "bother" -- point out the exact quote to me where I say there are no plants to support TiVo.

"No way to know since there's no such TiVo box for me to plug it into."?!?!?!

Yes there is a way to know. It's called CableLabs Certification, and FCC regulations.

Until I have a box in my hand, and a CC in my hand, there is no way to KNOW -- neither from you or me can say for sure.

Your comments on cablecard shows you really have no idea what you are talking about.

Only according to you.

You seem to think that Cablevision has some discretionary options on whether they will or will not be compatible with Cablecard Tivos. They have no choice at all. The FCC orderred cable companies in 2003 to be compliant to Cablecard1.0. Tivo has a Cablecard 1.0 design certified by Cablelabs as a compliant host. So does Microsoft. That means when these certified devices are hooked up to a cable providers system, the cable supplier is bound by FCC regulations to make it work. They have no choice in the matter. This has slowly been developed in cooperation between CEA and the cablecos as fallout from the 1996 Telecom law that said that carriers had to provide third party access to their networks.

So why then are there so many wishes for TiVo to offer a dual slot machine that supports both CC 1.0 and 2.0?

Also, from what I understand (and I could be wrong here), firewire support would illiminate the need for a cablecard all together, so why the cablecard route? (Genuine question, not sarcasm).

Lawsuits mean NOTHING to me, especially when you mention Microsoft in the same paragraph -- LOL -- remember all the lawsuits against Microsoft? Forcing "compliance" still doesn't mean the company forced delivers the way they are supposed to, or doesn't try to find unique ways around that complaince. You have a pretty naive view of the world if you think it's that simple... and somehow I don't think you're that dumb -- you just want to prove me "wrong" now, which you can't. Not possible if there's no box to test on.

Clearly, you have no understanding of the cablecard standard, or you would not have attempted further FUD disinformation on whether CC Tivos will work with your local cable network.

It's not disinformation when not one consumer can prove otherwise. You could have made the argument to me that my cable company was offering a TiVo promotion so what the heck am I talking about blah blah blah -- but until you make the phone call yourself, hear how they were doing everything they could NOT to give me a TiVo box (and there's another thread in these forums from another member who couldn't get the TiVo box, regardless of the promo), how they toted their own box as "so much better" than TiVo, etc. etc. your argument would appear to be "true" when it's a little more complicated than that -- and more like what I said. And since there's no CC HD TiVo yet, what happens in the meantime... consumers get sold on Cablevisions own DVR and sold away from TiVo.

And DO NOT misunderstand me -- nothing would make me happier than to have a TiVo with CC support in my hands today, and to get the CC card from Cablevision that I could plug into it (which is already available). Currently that is NOT a choice, and there's no way for me to know if the combo will work until it's here in my house (or in someone elses house with Cablevision).

[ZeoTiVo]

Also, from what I understand (and I could be wrong here), firewire support would illiminate the need for a cablecard all together, so why the cablecard route? (Genuine question, not sarcasm).
:p


hey, if I ever move can I ship my TV and TiVo to someone to make sure it works on the local cable provider setup :rolleyes:

[TiVoPhish]

so TiVo HD is CURRENTLY NOT AVAILABLE but we should all be worried that the coming soon for quite some time NDS HD box for DirectTV.

this is the double standard you employ that shoots your credibility all to pieces.
We can not speak of the ANNOUNCED plans for TiVo, we can not speak of the difficulties of getting a ratified Cable Card multistream standard
but
you can talk about all this coming stuff and an Apple HD DVR as certainty that will kill off TiVo.

just a big pile of BS that is not worth having around anymore. Justin - it would be best to just let this thread die off and sink so we can get rid of the stink.

My point, since you missed it in your need to argue -- TiVo should be LEADING the pack, not merely following or competing. CC cards are available, so there should already be a CC TiVo box.

I never said Apple would enter the game with CERTAINTY or that it would CERTAINLY kill off TiVo. Notice I mentioned other companies as well... and lots of tech reporters agree that there will be many companies, possibly including Apple, trying to enter the DVR/Content Delivery market this year. Sony, Cisco, Microsoft, Apple are some of the big rumors/players. If you don't think this hurts TiVo, you're living under a rock. Even TiVo themselves knows this is a threat to them.

And if you think what I'm saying is rubish, don't reply anymore. My criticism is valid. Best thing TiVo could have done was have a standalone CC box available as soon as CCs became widely available. HOPEFULLY they'll have one out very soon... some people say February, others are projecting out into late 2006 -- maybe we'll know in the next few days via CES.

It's my HOPE they have it soon!

[TiVoPhish]

:p


hey, if I ever move can I ship my TV and TiVo to someone to make sure it works on the local cable provider setup :rolleyes:


Considering you don't have a TiVo with a CC support, now you're just being a wise-ass. It's all just hyperbole until they deliver a box now isn't it?

Laugh at me all you like. DirectTV supported TiVo for a long time, but that isn't to be anymore and when mpeg-4 rolls out do you have any guarantee TiVo will support it with it's new boxes, cause their current HD SA DTV box won't be compatible. But yeah, I'm an idiot for thinking that CC support might not be so globally supported or widely available or buggy or whatever other holdup/roadblock there could be.

The world is perfect and every company will just cooperate and the new TiVo box will be available next week and be perfect.

I can hope that's the case.

[rainwater]

But yeah, I'm an idiot for thinking that CC support might not be so globally supported or widely available or buggy or whatever other holdup/roadblock there could be.


I would say you are an idiot if you don't know more about CC 1.0 and continue to post these rants full of nonsense. Why don't you make a call to the FCC and see what they think. I'm sure they would love to hear your comments on the situation.

[MickeS]

Say it like you mean it... "The world is perfect and every company will just cooperate and the new Apple box will be available next week and be perfect."

;)

[Justin Thyme]

Your criticism is based on misunderstanding of facts you could have easily determined for yourself.

MickS asked you some hard questions about your analysis which is impressionistic at best. It appears his investment with you was wasted.

It's not just your analytical ability but simple gathering of facts. If you wish to lecture others on the fundamentals of an technology industry, it is particularly absurd to ask others to forgive your ignorance of "technical" matters some no more complex than how to hook a few boxes to your TV set.

I know people are actually paid to create rants on boards in order to spread disinformation, FUD, and the impression of dissaffection among "die hard" supporters. I doubt you are one of them for pretty obvious reasons.

If you really do want to learn about the technical fundamentals and the business dynamics, I think you picked a very interesting subject. I think you will find that folks here and on other boards such as AVSforums are very generous in helping other people out in understanding questions. But it is perhaps an impractical strategy for a person to greet such help with condescension, sarcasm, put downs and a willful disregard for facts.

Good luck in your exploration. I recommend you change your tactics, but if you are simply interested in venting frustration, then a good workout at the gym might be a better alternative.

[ZeoTiVo]

Laugh at me all you like. DirectTV supported TiVo for a long time, but that isn't to be anymore and when mpeg-4 rolls out do you have any guarantee TiVo will support it with it's new boxes, cause their current HD SA DTV box won't be compatible. But yeah, I'm an idiot for thinking that CC support might not be so globally supported or widely available or buggy or whatever other holdup/roadblock there could be.

what in the world does DirectTV, a sat provider, and their proprietary strategy to move to a subsidiary supplied box have to do with cable providers and an FCC mandated open standard?

:p :p :p :p :p :p :p

[DPF]

God, this thread sucks.

:) :) :)

[ZeoTiVo]

Hi,

What is this?

[Y-ASK]

God, this thread sucks.

:) :) :)
Yeah but some of it is quite interesting. I like the part about what Zeo said on page three:
There were SIGNIFICANT technical hurdles to overcome in getting HD out for a Stand Alone that would work independent of a specific carrier.

Zeo, you use the word "were" (past-tense) which I would take it to mean that some of these technical hurdles have been overcome. Is that really what you meant to say and if so, do you have any details?

Now if a DVR company could make a DVR that works exactly like a stand-alone Tivo regradless of the carrier and can record the HD video that goes into a HD TV that would be news.

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

Yeah but some of it is quite interesting. I like the part about what Zeo said on page three:


Zeo, you use the word "were" (past-tense) which I would take it to mean that some of these technical hurdles have been overcome. Is that really what you meant to say and if so, do you have any details?

Now if a DVR company could make a DVR that works exactly like a stand-alone Tivo regradless of the carrier and can record the HD video that goes into a HD TV that would be news.

Y-ASK


yes, cable card allows direct access to the digital signal for 3rd partie makers of DVRs. and to be more specific the tech hurdles were cleared last year for multistream and the accurate statement would be there were significant business hurdles to overcome and at least for a single tuner cable card they have been overcome by the FCC mandate to use an open standard. and there is now a multistream (multiple tuners) cable card 1 spec floating around though cable companies have no impetus to use them until theyr are forced too. and then there is cable card 2 spec that includes multi and two way interactivity that the cable cos keep dithering around on because they can until the FCC holds to a deadline to force all cable cos to use the cable card in their own stuff. I forget what the deadline is now since the FCC just keeps moving it back under pressure from cable cos.

look in my sig for a post from TiVoPony saying TiVo will put out a dual tuner HD TiVo in 2006