If Cablecard TiVo came out today...

[nhaigh]

...I'd buy three of them before the shops closed. One for the Lounge to replace my DirecTiVo, one in the Dem to replace my Series One and an addition for the bedroom. Am I in such a minority that TiVo feel there is no real market for this. There are a lot of cable card TV's available today so it can't be a technology reason. Maybe they jus don'y want my subscriptions.

How many would you buy?

[Justin Thyme]

I currently have 4 SA's. I have long stated I am ready to switch my carrier from Dish to cable and buy 3 CC HD Tivo's.

I request that TivoPony announce here on TCF a pre-order waitlist if they decide to do the rollout this way. It's the least Tivo Corp. can do for all this valuable advice we armchair CTO's and CEO's are generating. :rolleyes: Okay, Okay... It would probably take a staff of 5 to wade through and comprehend all of our delusional ravings, but at least we are, like trekkies, a loyal base and expressions of noblese oblige are in order.

[jsmeeker]

I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

[arctanstevo]

Is that CC-HD or CC Standard. I will move to it in a second when it is ready and HD. The again, I'll need to buy som enew TV's as well

[Stanley Rohner]

...Maybe they jus don'y want my subscriptions.


Maybe they're still designing it and testing it. :)

I'm sure they won't figure - we'll it's all ready to sell now, but let's just tick everyone off and not sell it for a long time.
:rolleyes:

[pkscout]

I'd probably get one. I have the HD TiVo right now (and have since they came out), but the unit is really slow and shows the fact that the code is now almost 4 years old (the 3.x codebase).

I'm to the point where I will likely replace it this year either with a standalone CC based TiVo, a MythTV box, or the rumored (not that I believe it until I see it) Apple DVR (if it does HD).

[cbordman]

It would have to be sub $400, including the lifetime fee, for me to replace the time warner hd dvr.

[nhaigh]

OK, taking this one step further, how much would you be prepared to pay without lifetime. I reckon I'd go $500 per unit giving me a $1500 outlay. I guess if they were more than that I'd consider droping to two Units. I think at $1000 or more for a unit I'd be down to one and put two current Series 2 units in the Den and Bedroom. I only really need Cablecard HD Integrated for me :)

What amazes me it my wife is totally on board with this expediture. We've had TiVo since 2000 and she doesn't understand why I don't just buy three regualr ones now.

[jsmeeker]

It would have to be sub $400, including the lifetime fee, for me to replace the time warner hd dvr.


Wishful thinking, I think. Isn't lifetime $300 now? That means the box would need to be under $100. Doesn't seem likely to me... But who knows.

[ZeoTiVo]

...I'd buy three of them before the shops closed. One for the Lounge to replace my DirecTiVo, one in the Dem to replace my Series One and an addition for the bedroom. Am I in such a minority that TiVo feel there is no real market for this. There are a lot of cable card TV's available today so it can't be a technology reason. Maybe they jus don'y want my subscriptions.

How many would you buy?

a few things on your post
one - I assume you could hook a Cable card TiVo up to DirectTV using the non cable card inputs but that would not be HD so why wait if you are going to use DirectTV as your carrier but wnat SA TiVos?

TiVo knows there is a market, and indeed TiVo needs it to stay in business.
Check my sig for TiVoPony's post on the fact they will have a dual tuner HD model out in 2006.

the technical reason is getting a ratified standard on a multituner Cable Card so they can be sure of how the cable card will work. Looks like they may bite the bullet and have it work with two single tuner cable cards for now just so it can be on the store shelves.


edit - oh yah I will buy in at 400$ for the hardware. I am waiting for HD to get reasonable in price before I go to it. Especially LCD TVs and how much HD you can get without buying premium cable packages.
I will spend a little more for the TiVo itself though, assuming it is a better built box with quicker TTG and more room for HME apps.

[mportuesi]

I'm to the point where I will likely replace it this year either with a standalone CC based TiVo, a MythTV box, or the rumored (not that I believe it until I see it) Apple DVR (if it does HD).

I'm exactly at the same point you are. I have a SA series 2 I've had for the last three years. I recently upgraded the hard disk when I got an HD set, to run all my recordings at Best. But I really want something that can record HD. Right now I hate being held hostage to the TV set for programs I want to watch in HD.

I'd be willing to pay around $500-$600 for the box and $300 for the Lifetime service, for a total outlay around $900. I only need one box, especially with dual tuners - I'm just not that big of a TV watcher.

[nhaigh]

a few things on your post
one - I assume you could hook a Cable card TiVo up to DirectTV using the non cable card inputs but that would not be HD so why wait if you are going to use DirectTV as your carrier but wnat SA TiVos?


Will the cablecard TiVo have non-cable card inputs? Why would it?

I currently have SD DTV using their out dated TiVo Implementation. I plan to upgrade to HDTV for which I will get cable and want to use TiVo to do it. If Cablecard TiVo was here today I'd buy it along with a new HDTV to watch. If Comcast release their TiVo first I'll get that.


TiVo knows there is a market, and indeed TiVo needs it to stay in business.
Check my sig for TiVoPony's post on the fact they will have a dual tuner HD model out in 2006.


I saw that post as well. It's good news, but if TiVo don't release theirs well in advance of Comcast releaseing theirs they limit themselves. If we have a choice between the no money down Comcast TiVo and the $500+ CC TiVo which do you think people would get. TiVo should get in while people are hungry.

TiVo should be carefull they don't miss the boat.

[ZeoTiVo]

Will the cablecard TiVo have non-cable card inputs? Why would it?
yes it will have non cable card inputs, because not everyone will have to rent a cable card if they do not have digital cable package. Also there is free OTA HD to be had as well. I have no idea how the dual tuners will work in such a case or if any mix and match of inputs will occurr, etc.. but TiVo always tries to be agnostic as possible about hookups. in your case the cable card inputs is what you want.


I myself hope to see a CC TiVo toward the end of the first quarter next year. I agree that the earlier TiVo gets in the market the better off they are, but they can not flub the design just to get in early.

[nhaigh]

yes it will have non cable card inputs, because not everyone will have to rent a cable card if they do not have digital cable package. Also there is free OTA HD to be had as well.

So it will basically be an HDR10-250 with the Satalite inputs replaced with Cablecard. I know I'm a layman but it does seem like most of the work must have been done in earlier versions.

[Justin Thyme]

Circuit City is selling Sony's Cablecard DVR for $999. They discontinued the lower capacity 250GB unit that sold for $799.

Tivo can easily enter the market with an SRP in that range. It is standard practice to charge full retail price at product entry, and I don't think this rollout is going to be any different, but who knows, maybe Tivo will come in hot with a low price point to take Cable marketshare while it is up for grabs. If they have both an SD cablecard unit and an HD cablecard, I can see a CC SD Tivo at around the SA price point. But I will probably go for all HD Cablecard high HDD capacity units even if they set the msrp at the top of the range, even though only two of the 3 displays are Hidef.

It's because I will elect lifetime for these and expect them to be in the family for a long long time, during which period the Guest room with the SDTv will likely get a handme down HD set.

I will elect for largest HDD because it may be a while before HDD upgrades are figured out.

[jsmeeker]

Will the cablecard TiVo have non-cable card inputs? Why would it?



Cable Card really isn't an input. The inputs would still be coaxial. CableCard is really a way to decrypt/decode stuff that isn't sent as normal, analog cable TV signals without using a box provided by the cable co./

[jsmeeker]

I saw that post as well. It's good news, but if TiVo don't release theirs well in advance of Comcast releaseing theirs they limit themselves. If we have a choice between the no money down Comcast TiVo and the $500+ CC TiVo which do you think people would get. TiVo should get in while people are hungry.



I would get what came first. If the Comcast DVR WITH TiVo SERVICE became available to me before the standalone TiVo box, I would get it. Then when the TiVo box came oit, depending on it's features and price, I would either buy it and dump the Comcast box or if it wasn't worth the cost at that time, I would keep the Comcast box longer.

[davezatz]

I don't care so much about the CableCARD aspect, but I am definitely in the market for at least one dual HD tuner TiVo. I'm fine using QAM or antenna for the signal. I'd be in at up to $400, maybe more when it first comes out... the early adopter premium price, ya know.

Of course so much of this is timing... if the Comcast HD TiVo box comes out first or at the same time, I might go with them to save on the upfront fees. I wonder how TiVo will try to limit those boxes from canibalizing potential Stand-alone sales. Perhaps the value-added will be things like TTG, DVD playing/burning, and these new broadband features. TiVo says DTV doesn't want to implement the HME/HMO options though they are currently available and technically possible, but I'm betting TiVo isn't so concerned about it since it differentiates the boxes and potentially results in more stand-alone sales.

[jsmeeker]

I don't care so much about the CableCARD aspect, but I am definitely in the market for at least one dual HD tuner TiVo. I'm fine using QAM or antenna for the signal. I'd be in at up to $400, maybe more when it first comes out... the early adopter premium price, ya know.
.


Which cable company sends all of their channels in the clear like that?

[ZeoTiVo]

I don't care so much about the CableCARD aspect, but I am definitely in the market for at least one dual HD tuner TiVo. I'm fine using QAM or antenna for the signal. I'd be in at up to $400, maybe more when it first comes out... the early adopter premium price, ya know. .

I would be looking at it for the better TTG and HME aspects to start with. the fact that it will most likely record a better picture even without using HD is a plus but for me not a buy in point.

and like Justin posted, TiVo is most likely eyeing a nice fat retail price at first to pay some R&D off but how long can they maintain a high price ?

[SullyND]

I would imagine that there is atleast some chance that the CC unit will be hackable/upgradable. The Moto/Comcast unit will not likely be as readily modified.

[jsmeeker]

I would imagine that there is atleast some chance that the CC unit will be hackable/upgradable. The Moto/Comcast unit will not likely be as readily modified.


that would not be much of a problem for me if the Comcast box came out first. I would not hold out just to get a hackable box. It was a few years before I hacked my Series 1 SA TiVo.

[davezatz]

Which cable company sends all of their channels in the clear like that?

From what I've read (check out AVSForum) many cable co's send the major network local channels in the clear. I'm getting them (Fox, CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS) from Comcast in HD. Surprisingly I seem to get some other channels, but I haven't identified them yet... maybe TBS, WB, and some sort of PPV? I also get all the music channels which seems odd.

Good luck calling and finding out which channel is which or troubleshooting anything - QAM seems like the cable frontier. The numbering is way off too and fits into no pattern... this stuff is definitely not being managed. Some commercials or the breaks between them on ABC cause my tuner to change channels from 105.3 to 105.1 (it could be my tuner, but I'll blame Comcast). However, the service IS free with my analog cable and since my apartment is blocked from getting ABC OTA it's working fine. :)

ESPN and Discovery would be nice in HD, but it would require almost doubling my Comcast bill for just two stations (digital is a $20/mo increase, HD cable box at $10, HD at $5).

[shady]

I would get what came first. If the Comcast DVR WITH TiVo SERVICE became available to me before the standalone TiVo box, I would get it. Then when the TiVo box came oit, depending on it's features and price, I would either buy it and dump the Comcast box or if it wasn't worth the cost at that time, I would keep the Comcast box longer.

That's exactly what I was going to write.

I'm thinking that the only difference funtionality wise of the comcast, and the cablecard boxes will be that we can upgrade the HDDs in the cablecard boxes, but we won't in the comcast box (unless external drives can be hooked up like they can with the Scientific Atlantic box)

But who knows, Comcast may decide to block some or all of the networking features. Time will tell

[jsmeeker]

That's exactly what I was going to write.

I'm thinking that the only difference funtionality wise of the comcast, and the cablecard boxes will be that we can upgrade the HDDs in the cablecard boxes, but we won't in the comcast box (unless external drives can be hooked up like they can with the Scientific Atlantic box)

But who knows, Comcast may decide to block some or all of the networking features. Time will tell

Even if Comcast DID block the HOM/HME/TTG stuff, I woudl still get it if it were available before the TiVo SA box. I don't have those features now, and for me, the minimum requirements would be to duplicate what I can do now and add in the ability to record in HiDef.

[rainwater]

I think TiVo will need to lower their monthly rate for a CC TiVo since people are going to have to rent the CC themselves. It will be interesting to see TiVos strategy with this regards. While having a CC TiVo is great. Explaining to the customer how to get it setup is not going to be easy. That is why so many people have cable company dvrs now because of how easy it is to setup (the cable guy sets it up for them and it just works).

[mrmike]

If HD and OTA capable, I'd replace one of my S1s that still has transferrable lifetime on it in a heartbeat at any price near the price of the HD-TiVo presently ($500-$900). If they have Firewire archive or some other way to get HD content off them (Even 5C/DRM encumbered), I'd probably replace all of my 3 SAs and farm them off to friends and family to spread the TiVo love.

[Justin Thyme]

Has anyone read anywhere how many advanced functions will be available for the CC Tivo at launch? All HME? TTG?

[nhaigh]

But who knows, Comcast may decide to block some or all of the networking features. Time will tell

The Comcast press release about the TiVo says they will suport the TiVo Networking features. I think it will be a good TiVo implementation.

[Globular]

I'm actually waiting to get HDTV until TiVo gets some kind of support for it I can use; Comcast or a SA HD CC box, whatever.

So I'm holding back on spending a lot of dough. Just waitin' on TiVo...

[nhaigh]

I'm actually waiting to get HDTV until TiVo gets some kind of support for it I can use; Comcast or a SA HD CC box, whatever.

So I'm holding back on spending a lot of dough. Just waitin' on TiVo...

I'm the same. The money is in a Savings Account waiting to be spent - $1500 for TiVo's and $4000 for the TV. I've decided which TV I'm getting (assuming its not discontinued by then :) ). I've made the decision to ditch DirecTV and get Comcast Cable in. I've laid a home network into the Den, Lounge and Bedroom in anticipation. All this is sitting waiting for TiVo to get its act together so I can conect it all up.

[Bierboy]

It would have to be sub $400, including the lifetime fee, for me to replace the time warner hd dvr.Dream on...and pass the Koo-aid...

[Bierboy]

I'm exactly at the same point you are. I have a SA series 2 I've had for the last three years. I recently upgraded the hard disk when I got an HD set, to run all my recordings at Best. But I really want something that can record HD. Right now I hate being held hostage to the TV set for programs I want to watch in HD.

I'd be willing to pay around $500-$600 for the box and $300 for the Lifetime service, for a total outlay around $900. I only need one box, especially with dual tuners - I'm just not that big of a TV watcher.I'm in exactly the same situation...and your price points are mine, too. I'm willing to shell out $1G max incl. lifetime for this baby...and I WILL get one the day they are available.

[Bierboy]

...If we have a choice between the no money down Comcast TiVo and the $500+ CC TiVo which do you think people would get. TiVo should get in while people are hungry...While Comcast may have many markets in the US, they certainly DON'T have everyone. For many of us, the SA HD dual tuner CC TiVo would be the ONLY reasonable choice.

[Bierboy]

Circuit City is selling Sony's Cablecard DVR for $999. They discontinued the lower capacity 250GB unit that sold for $799........but they list it as "out of stock" and not available in CC stores. The AVSForum thread on this unit is a hoot. So many "defenders" of the Sony unit (which I had for nearly three weeks, then returned) who don't know what they're missing since they don't have a TiVo. Yes, the Sony was good at what it was designed to do, but the TVGOS sucked. I plan on using the money I saved for the HD SA dual tuner TiVo.

[pkscout]

I paid $1,000 for the HDTiVo when DirecTV got it, and I'd probably pay it again for a stand alone HD TiVo (preferably with the lifetime service). However, I might even pay $1,000 for the unit alone (for a total of $1,300).

I'll share my reasoning so nobody thinks I'm on crack or something (well nobody else anyway). ;) I'm looking at building a MythTV box based on KnoppMyth. They have a hardware reference platform you can build that they have well tested. The cost for all the parts for that (along with 2 ATSC tuners and 2 analog cable tuners to duplicate my current functionality) is going to run me about $1,400. So anything in that price point is within my mental framework.

[megazone]

I'd buy one. Since it is dual-tuner, that's all I'd need. (I have two units now.) If it were up to $500 I'd get one without blinking, and, to be perfectly honest, I might go up to $1000 - but the higher the price, the more likely I'd be to hold off and wait for it to drop.

[mportuesi]

I'm actually waiting to get HDTV until TiVo gets some kind of support for it I can use; Comcast or a SA HD CC box, whatever.

So I'm holding back on spending a lot of dough. Just waitin' on TiVo...

I was in this mode for a long time, because I didn't want to go back to Live TV, even in HD.

I now have an HD set, and even though I still don't want to watch Live TV even in HD, there are definitely reasons to get an HD set now, and not wait for TiVo.

The biggest reason to get an HD set now is that DVDs look fantastic on an HD set. Component video connections, progressive scan, and true widescreen display have made DVD watching a truly wonderful experience. DVDs still don't look as nice as true HD, but they look good enough that someone without a trained eye likely would not notice the difference.

Secondly, once you have the TV settings adjusted properly, even SD programming is better on an HD set. The SD quality on my flat-panel LCD is definitely superior to the CRT it replaced, despite the fact the LCD shows imperfections in the signal more clearly. The point is, everything is clearer, along with the signal imperfections.

Thirdly, when letterboxed SD shows come over cable, you can just hit "Zoom" on the HDTV. The TV will zoom the picture to make the black bars go away, and fill the widescreen display with the remaining picture. Even though it's nowhere near HD quality, there is something very pleasing about widescreen viewing that for me makes it as big a bonus as HD.

The cost of sets has gone down a great deal. Having made the leap, I'm glad I did, and I don't think the absence of a cable-compatible HD TiVo is a showstopper for getting an HD set now.

[davezatz]

I now have an HD set, and even though I still don't want to watch Live TV even in HD, there are definitely reasons to get an HD set now, and not wait for TiVo.

I'm in agreement with most of your reasoning and have made the same choice in our living room. For us there's also a fourth reason - football looks and sounds great in HD. Not to mention I wouldn't watch it recorded anyhow.

[Gregor]

Wishful thinking, I think. Isn't lifetime $300 now? That means the box would need to be under $100. Doesn't seem likely to me... But who knows.

The drives alone will cost significantly more than $100 unless you want a 4 hour Tivo.

HD content is around 10GB/hr, iirc. Weakness is selling a Terabyte Tivo for $1300 or so...

[bidger]

If the SA HD-TiVo came out today, I would do what I usually do with new technology/electronic devices, I'd wait a year or so to see if the price point came down and to see what exactly the unit is capable of and what features there are. If there were a Lifetime sub swap offer made, that might influence me, but given I already have the HR10-250 and I'd only be using the SA HD-TiVo for one, at this point, OTA HD station and as a backup if I should find cable more appealing than DirecTV, I can afford to delay on this. I'm well aware others are chomping at the bit on this more than I am.

[frankygamer]

I'd get 2 and call DirecTV and say "See Ya!!!!!".

[cbordman]

The drives alone will cost significantly more than $100 unless you want a 4 hour Tivo.

HD content is around 10GB/hr, iirc. Weakness is selling a Terabyte Tivo for $1300 or so...


But this is what Tivo will have to face. Especially being late to the television markets that have had dual tuner HD recorders for over a year now.

How can they lure back people that are currently paying $6.95 for a dual tuner HD DVR (that works great)?

[Adam1115]

...I'd buy three of them before the shops closed. One for the Lounge to replace my DirecTiVo, one in the Dem to replace my Series One and an addition for the bedroom. Am I in such a minority that TiVo feel there is no real market for this. There are a lot of cable card TV's available today so it can't be a technology reason. Maybe they jus don'y want my subscriptions.

How many would you buy?

Your cable company supports it? I can't get cablecard from my cable company... let alone 2.0

So anyway, nope wouldn't buy it. Cable company doesn't support cablcecard. Even if they did, they don't offer HD.

So stuck with whatever I can get from DirecTV.

[LynnL999]

But this is what Tivo will have to face. Especially being late to the television markets that have had dual tuner HD recorders for over a year now.

How can they lure back people that are currently paying $6.95 for a dual tuner HD DVR (that works great)?

Which cable co. HD dual tuner DVR "works great"?

Even when mine (Moto 6412 with the godawful Pioneer Passport software) is working the way it's supposed to, what it offers pales in comparison to my series 2 TiVo's features. For starters:

-- It only holds 10-12 hours of HD, which during the busy months means it isn't "TV my way," but "you better watch this fast or it will be deleted." I used to save up 4 or 5 episodes of shows like 24 to watch at once, or movies to watch on weekends; that's impossible with the cable co. DVR, unless I don't want to record anything else.

-- It can't deal with duplicates of non-first run shows. For example, if you want to record Alias reruns on TNT-HD, well, those are "reruns" so you have to tell the season pass to record reruns -- if you tell it new episodes only, it records nothing. It will then record the same episode over and over and over, even if it airs four times in a day. You have to delete each one from scheduled recordings manually. (It even does this with certain shows with new episodes -- unless you tell it to record reruns of Real Time with Bill Maher, it won't record anything, even the first run episodes the night they air.)

-- You can't eliminate channels you don't watch/don't have from the guide, making it incredibly tedious to scroll through.

-- There's no sorting or grouping of the available programs list (not that this is really a big deal, since there are never that many shows available at once, given the space limits).

-- The guide info. only goes 6-7 days in advance, which sucks if you're going away. And of course there's nothing like online scheduling.

-- You can't get detailed episode information from the scheduled recordings list, to check if an episode is a rerun, or whatever. You get only the show name, and you have to go into the guide and locate that program for more detail.

-- No wishlists, suggestions, etc. I really miss the wishlists for digital cable (my S2 TiVo now gets analog only) -- it was always finding interesting things for me on those upper channels I don't think about that much. (The cable box has a barely adequate search function, but you can't save the searches to record things automatically. You'd have to re-do the search every six days.)

I won't even go into how they're known for doing updates at inconvenient times, so your box loses all its guide data 4 minutes before Lost starts. I would happily hurl the thing out the window for a HD dual-tuner TiVo that was actually a TiVo, with TiVo's features and software. Even without the fancy stuff like pictures and music.

(And Adam1115, it's my understanding that cable companies are required to provide cable cards. They may not put it on their web site, but if you call and ask they have to give you one.)

[Justin Thyme]

Your cable company supports it? I can't get cablecard from my cable company... let alone 2.0

So anyway, nope wouldn't buy it. Cable company doesn't support cablcecardIt is an FCC requirement (FCC 03-225) (http://news.com.com/FAQ+CableCard+Whats+that/2100-1041_3-5542400.html) that cable companies support cablecard. Major cable companies all offer it because they have no choice. Other smaller companies may offer them but don't advertize the fact. Some don't offer it yet, but eventually all cable companies will have to come into compliance.

Even though your cable company does not offer its own Hi definition service, they are required by law to carry local broadcast programming, including High definition channels such as KCNC (CBS), KMGH, and KUSA. All the locally digital channels should be available as a ATSC/QAM signal on US Cable, otherwise they would be in violation of FCC regulations (source) (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2201139&&#post2201139)

People get hung up on the cablecard aspect of the Cablecard Tivo, but it also supports digital reception of all your locally available digital channels which include:
KBDI 12 38 PBS
KCEC 50 51 UNI
KCNC 4 35 CBS**
KDVR 31 32 FOX
KMGH 7 17 ABC **
KRMA 6 18 PBS
KRMT 41 40 Daystar/Worship
KTVD 20 19 UPN
KUSA 9 16 NBC **
KWGN 2 34 WB
Source (http://www.hdtv.digitalinsurrection.com/channeldb/directory/United_States_Digital_Television_Stations/Colorado/Colorado.php)

I note that Denver has been very sluggish in developing its Over the Air (OTA) infrastructure. I have no idea how FCC determines what a local channel is, but it seems reasonable you are considered part of the Denver market.

** HDTV channels

[Justin Thyme]

But this is what Tivo will have to face. Especially being late to the television markets that have had dual tuner HD recorders for over a year now.

How can they lure back people that are currently paying $6.95 for a dual tuner HD DVR (that works great)?Let us be clear that the only DVR providers that have HD dual tuner DVRs are either owned by, or in bed with the Carriers. The cable companies were required by law 10 years ago to allow direct access to their networks, and only recently have the cable companies actually been required to provide cablecard 1.0 cards. Small wonder there aren't any dual tuner Cablecard 1.0 DVRs. Sony put out a single cablecard dvr last spring, but they did it before compliance testing could be completed.

It should be no big mystery why all the other third party electronics companies are "late".

The carriers are defending their turf. They are doing it with FCC foot dragging, and they are doing it by DVR giveaway prices. They are abusing their dominant market position in order to close out availability of third party navigation devices. By doing this, they better control consumer choice within their vertical monopoly fiefdom. It's anti competitive behavior, and it won't last. Microsoft and Apple are the most likely parties to force the issue. It's not clear to me that the CEA is motivated enough to aggressively push for carrier compliance to the 1996 telecom law.

[Justin Thyme]

The drives alone will cost significantly more than $100 unless you want a 4 hour Tivo.

HD content is around 10GB/hr, iirc. Weakness is selling a Terabyte Tivo for $1300 or so...Those figures are misleading. Outpost.com regularly has specials on 300GB seagate drives for $79. That is a retail not OEM price, so I think you are off base on those Hard drive costs. Even if the user recorded all HD (which is hard to believe given the low amount of content available compared to SDTV), you could still get 30 hours of HD on that size drive.

With that said, although a surprizingly low cost HDTV dvr is possible, I don't see the coming CC Tivo being designed for such low price point markets unless there is only one cablecard Tivo in the works. If the speculation that there are two Cablecard models is correct, my bet is that the low end unit will be SDTV only, and the confirmed HDTV unit would be the high end that would have a higher price point due to the number of high end features lavished on the design.

[dt_dc]

Even though your cable company does not offer its own Hi definition service, they are required by law to carry local broadcast programming, including High definition channels such as KCNC (CBS), KMGH, and KUSA. All the locally digital channels should be available as a ATSC/QAM signal on US Cable, otherwise they would be in violation of FCC regulations (source) (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2201139&&#post2201139)Just to clear up a couple things ...

1) Cable companies do not have to carry all local broadcast programming.

They (typically) have to carry some ... but not all. They almost never have to carry major network affiliates (analog or digital) like the ones mentioned (KCNC, KMGH, and KUSA). And there are very very few digital stations they must carry.

First off ... there's commercial stations vs. non-commercial stations.

For commercial stations ... the station can elect for "retransmission consent" or "must carry". They have to file this election with the FCC every 3 years ... and their election can only be changed when they re-file again in three years. Commercial stations that elect for "must carry" status generally* must be carried by the cable companies. However, they are carried for free ... they can't negotiate with the cable companies. If you're going to ask for any compensation from the cable company for carrying your signal ... you have to elect for "retransmission consent". This gives you the power to negotiate with the cable company ... but it also means if you can't come to terms the cable company does not have to carry the channel.

Major network affiliates (ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox) almost always choose "retransmission consent". Smaller stations (UPN, PAX, WB, Telemundo, etc) often (but not always) choose "must carry".

For non-commercial stations ... they are not entitled to compensation in return for carriage. They can, however, request mandatory carraige (and pretty much always do).

Next ... there's analog vs. digital

If a station is broadcasting both analog and digital ... they can (currently) ONLY get mandatory carraige for their analog broadcast. The only digital stations that can get mandatory carraige are digital-only stations. There are a few of these ... but that's pretty rare. Most stations are broadcasting both analog and digital. Further ... digital-only stations may only get mandatory carraige for a single 'primary' channel. They can not (currently) get mandatory carraige for their additional multicasted sub-channels (although this is subject to some debate).

So ...

Currently the only local broadcast stations a cable company typically* must carry are the analog non-commercial stations (PBS) and a few analog minor network affiliates (WB, PAX, etc). Moving forward, some of these small stations may drop their analog broadcasts early ... in which case they would be elgible for must carry status for their digital station. And, once OTA is "all digital" ... the small channels will almost certainly keep with "must carry" status. However, the major affiliates will almost certainly keep with the current "retransmission consent" model. Heck, even PBS seems to be dropping the "must carry" status for thier digital stations and instead opted to make a deal with the cable companies ensuring that their multicasted sub-channels would also be carried (if PBS stuck to "must carry" only their primary channel would be elgible).

* (typically/generally) - Even within this there are a couple exceptions. Cable companies do not have to carry "substantially duplicated" channels. For example ... if there are two PBS affiliates with the same programming schedule cable doesn't have to carry both. And, there's a limit to how much capacity cable has to dedicate to "must carry" and non-commercial stations (although this is no longer an issue on most cable plants any more).

2) Cable companies do not have to carry local channels as broadcast ATSC(8VSB) or QAM.

My post (linked to above) is that they have to carry local broadcasters unencrypted / unscrambled. However, they are free to use whatever modulation they care to for must carry channels (and for re-transmission consent channels if it's not specified via contract). For example ... they could use (unencrypted) 8PSK. Cable companies choose to use QAM for market, technical, and contractual reasons ... not because they have to via regulation.

Beyond modulation ... cable could carry locals as switched broadcasts ... or IPTV ... or however else they wanted. This is especially true for "must carry" channels. "Retransmission Consent" contracts will usually specify how a station is to be carried.

So ... the locals have to be unencrypted. They don't have to be ATSC(8VSB) / QAM. For market reasons, they will most likely be QAM for the forseeable future. Although ... I wouldn't be surprised to see some small locals (Telemundo) start to be carried via switched broadcast.

[shepler76]

DT_DC, So what you are saying is that I should call my cable company complain about them encrypting everything. Not sure what good it would do. Where I am, just outside of Harrisburg, PA. We have Blue Ridge Cable. To get any HD channels, including locals, you must subscribe to the Basic Plus, and what they call Digital Gateway, just to get the local Big 4 in HD. $50.00 a month just for that! I have tried to use my HDTV's Quam tuner to get stuff but no luck. I know that they use Q256, but since I can not get any station they must be encrypting it.

I sent the FCC an email back in April, Here is the reply I got.

Thanks for contacting the FCC Consumer Center in Gettysburg PA.

1. Is it against FCC laws and regs for cable companies to encrypt local
HDTV channels?

A: Currently FCC rules do not prohibit a cable company encrypting the
high definition signal of an over-the-air TV station. This issue however
may be addressed in a future FCC rulemaking about digital TV service over
cable.

FCC rule section 15.19* notes that, for consumer electronics TV receiving
devices with digital signal processing capability, a security card (or
POD) provided by the cable operator is required to view encrypted
programming. So, please be aware that the signal may appear to be
encrypted if you are attempting to view the channel(s) without a security
card/POD or other cable company-provided equipment.

*Section 15.19 specifies labeling requirements for 'cable ready' consumer
electronics equipment such as consumer electronics TV receiving devices,
including TV receivers, videocassette recorders and similar devices, that
incorporate a tuner capable of receiving television signals and an input
terminal intended for receiving cable television service, and are marketed
as "cable ready" or "cable compatible."


2. Can a cable company make you purchase extended basic service and
digital basic service just to
get local HDTV channels?

A: A DTV-only station, commercial or non-commercial, can immediately
assert its right to carriage on a local cable system. A TV station that
returns its analog spectrum and converts to digital operations must be
carried by local cable systems.

Applicable law(s)/rule(s):

Action by the Commission, January 18, 2001, by Report and Order and
Further Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (FCC 01-22).

WEB ADDRESS:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-01-22A1.pdf

A commercial television station, broadcasting in both analog and digital
formats during the transition period, may choose 'must carry' or
'retransmission consent' for its analog signal and retransmission consent
for its digital signal. A DTV-only commercial television station may
elect either retransmission consent or must carry.

Cable carriage of digital TV signals summary of FCC rules adopted January
18, 2001:

Channel Capacity

The current statutory definitions of "usable activated channels" and
"activated channels" will continue to apply in determining channel
capacity in the digital context.

Content of Signals Subject to Mandatory Carriage

Primary Video. The "primary video" entitled to mandatory carriage
includes a single programming stream and other program related content.

Set-Top Box Availability

The Report and Order finds that a cable operator is not required under the
Act to provide subscribers with a set-top box capable of processing
digital television signals for display on analog sets.

Channel Location

The Report and Order finds that there is no need to implement channel
positioning requirements for digital television signals like those that
exist for analog signals.

Digital Signal Carriage on PEG Channels

The carriage of NCE and LPTV digital signals on unused public,
educational, and governmental access channels, with the permission of the
local franchising authority, is consistent with the Act.

Subscriber Notification

The Report and Order finds that a cable operator must notify its
subscribers whenever a digital television signal is added to the cable
system channel line-up.

Tiers and Rates

Digital television signals must be available to subscribers on a basic
service tier.

[dt_dc]

DT_DC, So what you are saying is that I should call my cable company complain about them encrypting everything.Actually ... I would break that up in to two (or more) parts. Oh, and I wouldn't call ... I'd write and request a written response.

First is the issue of digital domestic television broadcast stations not being on the basic service tier (or BST in FCC lingo ... or I think it's what Blue Ridge calls "Broadcast Basic"). This part has nothing to do with HD or not ... encrypted or not.

I'd ask Blue Ridge what specific programming tiers are required to get the specific channels you're looking for (WXXX-DT, WYYY-DT, WZZZ-DT, etc) ... and if they said anything other than "Broadcast Basic" (Expanded Basic, Digital Basic, HD Basic, etc. are not basic service tiers) I would complain to them ... and if that didn't get results I'd file a complaint with the FCC (along with that written response) for "requiring a cable programming services tier (CPST) in order to gain access to television broadcast station(s) which should be included in the basic service tier (BST)."

Oh, and I wouldn't call or email the FCC ... I'd file a General Complaint: General Communications Related Issues (...) for complaints related to (...) 2) non-programming related cable)
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints.html
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cib/fcc475.cfm
http://www.fcc.gov/omd/pra/docs/3060-0874/3060-0874-07.doc
And I'd cc the cable company, local franchise authority, and broadcast stations involved.

Only after you adress the issue of tiering can you get to encryption. After all, it's perfectly legal for the cable company to encrypt the "HD Basic Tier". The first issue is ... certain channels shouldn't be there.

FCC Sec. 76.901 - Definitions
The basic service tier shall, at a minimum, include all signals of domestic television broadcast stations provided to any subscriber (...)
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr76.901.htm
FCC Sec. 76.5 - Definitions
Television station; television broadcast station. Any television broadcast station operating on a channel regularly assigned to its community by Sec. 73.606 or Sec. 73.622 of this chapter (...)
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/12feb20041500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/octqtr/47cfr76.5.htm
FCC Sec. 73.622 - Digital television table of allotments
Pennsylvania
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Community Channel No.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allentown............................. 46, *62
Altoona............................... 24c, 32, 46
Bethlehem............................. 9
Clearfield............................ *15
Erie.................................. 16, 22, *50, 52, 58
Greensburg............................ 50
Harrisburg............................ 4, 10, *36
Hazleton.............................. 45
Johnstown............................. 29, 30, 34
Lancaster............................. 23, 58
Philadelphia.......................... 26, 32, *34, 42, 54, 64, 67
Pittsburgh............................ 25, 26, *38, 42, 43, 48, 51
Reading............................... 25
Red Lion.............................. 30
Scranton.............................. 13, 31, 32, *41, 49
Wilkes-Barre.......................... 11
Williamsport.......................... 29
York.................................. 47
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/12feb20041500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/octqtr/47cfr73.622.htm
FCC Sec. 76.920 - Composition of the basic tier
Every subscriber of a cable system must subscribe to the basic tier in order to subscribe to any other tier of video programming or to purchase any other video programming.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/12feb20041500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/octqtr/47cfr76.920.htmHeck ... your email from the FCC:
Digital television signals must be available to subscribers on a basic service tier.

[shepler76]

Thanks for the Info.

[dt_dc]

Thanks for the Info.Welcome to the wonderful world of big business and government bureaucracy.

[ThreeSoFar]

TiVo, are you listening? I want on this early order list if you do it.

I think TiVo will need to lower their monthly rate for a CC TiVo since people are going to have to rent the CC themselves. It will be interesting to see TiVos strategy with this regards. While having a CC TiVo is great. Explaining to the customer how to get it setup is not going to be easy. That is why so many people have cable company dvrs now because of how easy it is to setup (the cable guy sets it up for them and it just works).

Odd. Tons of people are already paying both the TiVo fee and the cable fee for their cable box that feeds it.

We just got an HDTV w/ CableCard. It gives us all the Comcast HD channels plus decodes our premium channels (HBO and SHO). Cable card fee, in my case, is only $5. Less than half the digital cable box amount.

I'd buy an HD TiVo immediately, at any price.

Then, depending on whether it can (needs to) be upgraded to larger size and I can do it myself, I might get a second.

Two of my five S2 standalones, maybe three, will be sold at about $400 a pop (lifetimed and upgraded in size).

[Justin Thyme]

DT, Thanks for clearing up my multiple errors regarding the FCC rules.

In addition, it appears I was incorrect about the Digital TV stations available in Denver.

I am not sure whether the shortage is due to the blockage of the new transmission tower on lookout mountain or what, but whatever the reason, the FCC info on current DTV stations is far far smaller than the digital insurrection web page's list. The FCC List as of November 15, 2005 (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/files/dtvonair.html) (you may have to click refresh after going to it if no page appears) mentions only KDVR in Denver.

[Adam1115]

DT, Thanks for clearing up my multiple errors regarding the FCC rules.

In addition, it appears I was incorrect about the Digital TV stations available in Denver.

I am not sure whether the shortage is due to the blockage of the new transmission tower on lookout mountain or what, but whatever the reason, the FCC info on current DTV stations is far far smaller than the digital insurrection web page's list. The FCC List as of November 15, 2005 (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/files/dtvonair.html) (you may have to click refresh after going to it if no page appears) mentions only KDVR in Denver.

I get KDVR (Fox) and KWGN (WB), as well as KRMA (PBS) which is digital but not HD.

The rest are broadcasting low power.... a group called CARE (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/) has been sueing TV stations to block any new towers.

[Larry in TN]

I'd buy an HD TiVo immediately, at any price.

Just a wild guess, but you're not a poker player, are you? :)

[QZ1]

But this is what Tivo will have to face. Especially being late to the television markets that have had dual tuner HD recorders for over a year now.

How can they lure back people that are currently paying $6.95 for a dual tuner HD DVR (that works great)?
What MSO charges $6.95 for a DVR?
Comcast charges $9.95.

[QZ1]

Which cable co. HD dual tuner DVR "works great"?

Even when mine (Moto 6412 with the godawful Pioneer Passport software) is working the way it's supposed to, what it offers pales in comparison to my series 2 TiVo's features. For starters:

-- It only holds 10-12 hours of HD,
That is not correct. According to Motorola, it hold 12-20 hours of HD. One person reported getting 23 hours of HD once.

Regardless, I do agree that it isn't enough space for HD.

[davezatz]

What MSO charges $6.95 for a DVR?
Comcast charges $9.95.

Depends on your locale... I believe renting a regular digital cable box runs about 5 bucks here, and upgrading to the DVR model is 5 more for $9.95 total.

[generalpatton71]

Well I have 3 SA2 Tivos and one of them is the Humax DVD burner unit. I also have a HDTV Tivo from D* and another SD Tivo with them.

I'm VERY reluctant to go back to cable, but I also love tivo. In a perfect world we would be getting a HDTV tivo that could record from any provider like the SA2 units do in SD. If only they could come out with a "componet in" unit and use mpeg 4 compression or something to try and solve the file size problems.

[etsolow]

I'll take two. Where do I sign up??

[MichaelK]

Your cable company supports it? I can't get cablecard from my cable company... let alone 2.0

So anyway, nope wouldn't buy it. Cable company doesn't support cablcecard. Even if they did, they don't offer HD.

So stuck with whatever I can get from DirecTV.


Adam-

keep checking with your cable company. Maybe you get lucky.

Mine is a dink mom and pop also that serves like 10 towns in a less developed area of my state. For years the mayor in my town literally would advise people to go with DBS in public forums.

Anyhow, they were slow as hell to do anything but once they started upgrading their infrastructure they quickly got in the ballpark of the big city systems. This time last year they had ONE WAY cable modems and all analog. Now they have 2 way real high speed, digital cable, dvr's from moto, HD, and cablecard support.

This time last year i never thought i'd move from directv back to the evil cable empire. But at this point my local cable company appears 'good enough' and Directv seems to be completely stagnant. Unless Directv figures out how to impress me before tivo rolls out the cablecard box I'm gone, with cable, and buying 2 cablecard tivo's for my HD sets.

[Adam1115]

It is an FCC requirement (FCC 03-225) (http://news.com.com/FAQ+CableCard+Whats+that/2100-1041_3-5542400.html) that cable companies support cablecard. Major cable companies all offer it because they have no choice. Other smaller companies may offer them but don't advertize the fact. Some don't offer it yet, but eventually all cable companies will have to come into compliance.

Even though your cable company does not offer its own Hi definition service, they are required by law to carry local broadcast programming, including High definition channels such as KCNC (CBS), KMGH, and KUSA. All the locally digital channels should be available as a ATSC/QAM signal on US Cable, otherwise they would be in violation of FCC regulations (source) (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2201139&&#post2201139)

People get hung up on the cablecard aspect of the Cablecard Tivo, but it also supports digital reception of all your locally available digital channels which include:
KBDI 12 38 PBS
KCEC 50 51 UNI
KCNC 4 35 CBS**
KDVR 31 32 FOX
KMGH 7 17 ABC **
KRMA 6 18 PBS
KRMT 41 40 Daystar/Worship
KTVD 20 19 UPN
KUSA 9 16 NBC **
KWGN 2 34 WB
Source (http://www.hdtv.digitalinsurrection.com/channeldb/directory/United_States_Digital_Television_Stations/Colorado/Colorado.php)

I note that Denver has been very sluggish in developing its Over the Air (OTA) infrastructure. I have no idea how FCC determines what a local channel is, but it seems reasonable you are considered part of the Denver market.

** HDTV channels

Called US Cable and was told nope, they don't support it period. I told them I was under the impression that they were required to. I then got a guy who said if my TV came with a cablecard they could probably support it but they can't supply them. I told him that I know people with cablecards and that it is supplied by the cable company, and he said no, they don't have them. I would have to possess the card first. :confused:

Regardless he said NO HD until next year.

[jsmeeker]

Called US Cable and was told nope, they don't support it period. I told them I was under the impression that they were required to. I then got a guy who said if my TV came with a cablecard they could probably support it but they can't supply them. I told him that I know people with cablecards and that it is supplied by the cable company, and he said no, they don't have them. I would have to possess the card first. :confused:

Regardless he said NO HD until next year.


Not suprising at all.

Sure, the law says they are supposed to, but that can't actually REALLY force them to do it. All sorts of things that people are supposed to do by law don't get done. It should not surprise anyway that the law about CableCard is any different. Same goes for sending local digital channels "free and clear" via QAM.

The question is, what does anyone do if the cable company does not comply? Fine them? Shut them down? What? If the law has little teeth, then there is less incentive for these non-compliant companies to comply.

[MichaelK]

actually i believe it was a consent decree (or some similar device- which is not a Law- Law's are passed by Congree- ) between ONLY the big 6 cable providers and the FCC. THe dinks dont need to comply at this time (if I understand correctly). Most have- i assume all new head end gear has it built in so once they upgrade to digital the dinks likely get it

I'm served by a dink that has like 10 or 20 towns. This time last year they were just converting from analog 40-50 channels with one way modems to a modern system with digital cable, HD, fast modems AND CABLE CARD. So even the dinks have hope. No if TiVo could just get their butts in gear and get the box done before next Christmas I'd be all set...

[Justin Thyme]

actually i believe it was a consent decree (or some similar device- which is not a Law- Law's are passed by Congree- ) between ONLY the big 6 cable providers and the FCC. THe dinks dont need to comply at this time (if I understand correctly). That is exactly my understanding, though I don't know the timetable for everyone to be in full compliance. The 2003 FCC decree gave a timetable for the big 6. They are the guinea pigs. FCC grants waivers for all sorts of conditions. For example, FCC is not going to foice a Cableco out of business in order to force more timely compliance.

So I can imagine there will be a lot of stragglers out there who won't be able to make full use of the CC Tivo (T3) right away.

[atmuscarella]

So If Cablecard TiVo (Series 3 TiVo) came out today what would I do?


Be happy for all you lucky stiffs that live someplace where you can get good cable.
Wait 2-3 years (or until I get a HDTV) and maybe get one for my OTA channels.
Hope Direct and/or Dish do an about face and offer state of the art TiVo satellite boxes.


:( Not much else someone who lives in a cable free zone can do. :(

Thanks,

atmuscarella

[dt_dc]

actually i believe it was a consent decree (or some similar device- which is not a Law- Law's are passed by Congree- ) between ONLY the big 6 cable providers and the FCC. THe dinks dont need to comply at this time (if I understand correctly).The FCC regulation requiring cable companies to support CableCard applies to all cable plants that are using QAM.

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/12feb20041500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/octqtr/pdf/47cfr76.640.pdf

The "Big 6" signed the original agreement with the CE companies that the regulations are based on. However ... the regulations apply to all cable systems (using QAM).

[dt_dc]

For example, FCC is not going to foice a Cableco out of business in order to force more timely compliance.

So I can imagine there will be a lot of stragglers out there who won't be able to make full use of the CC Tivo (T3) right away.However ... both these statements are also very true.

[SeanC]

From what I've read (check out AVSForum) many cable co's send the major network local channels in the clear. I'm getting them (Fox, CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS) from Comcast in HD. Surprisingly I seem to get some other channels, but I haven't identified them yet... maybe TBS, WB, and some sort of PPV? I also get all the music channels which seems odd.

I've see this exact same thing on my Sony KDFE50A10. I have a CableCard on the way but at the moment the TV is decoding everything on its own. The channels that have the movies that come and go I've come to the conclusion that they are OnDemand content that for whatever reason is getting decoded. Mainly I think that because out of the 4 or 5 movies that I've seen when I tried to figure out what channel it was by looking it up in the TV listings they weren't listed.

[ZeoTiVo]

So If Cablecard TiVo (Series 3 TiVo) came out today what would I do?


Be happy for all you lucky stiffs that live someplace where you can get good cable.
Wait 2-3 years (or until I get a HDTV) and maybe get one for my OTA channels.
Hope Direct and/or Dish do an about face and offer state of the art TiVo satellite boxes.


:( Not much else someone who lives in a cable free zone can do. :(

Thanks,

atmuscarella

4. write to your represenatives and the FCC about your situation and desire for sta providers to use an open standard for 3rd party access as well.

[dr_mal]

I get KDVR (Fox) and KWGN (WB), as well as KRMA (PBS) which is digital but not HD.

The rest are broadcasting low power.... a group called CARE (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/) has been sueing TV stations to block any new towers.
FYI, KRMA does have HD content. KBDI-DT (PBS) is the one with no HD content.

KRMA is in the same location as KUSA, KCNC, KTVD, and soon, KMGH, so it's odd that you can get KRMA but not the others.

In any case, there's a local HD thread over at AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=28456&goto=lastpost

It's pretty active, despite (because of?) our lack of full power HDTV here :(

[Adam1115]

FYI, KRMA does have HD content. KBDI-DT (PBS) is the one with no HD content.

KRMA is in the same location as KUSA, KCNC, KTVD, and soon, KMGH, so it's odd that you can get KRMA but not the others.

In any case, there's a local HD thread over at AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=28456&goto=lastpost

It's pretty active, despite (because of?) our lack of full power HDTV here :(

No, sorry, I get KBDi.

KRMA, KMGH, KCNC, KUSA and KTVD are all broadcasting low power from downtown denver courtesy of http://www.c-a-r-e.org/ who has been suing the stations preventing them from putting up new towers.

I get KDVR (1/3 power from Lookout), KWGN (1/2 power from Lookout) and KBDI.

[Adam1115]

No, sorry, I get KBDi.

KRMA, KMGH, KCNC, KUSA and KTVD are all broadcasting low power from downtown denver courtesy of http://www.c-a-r-e.org/ who has been suing the stations preventing them from putting up new towers.

I get KDVR (1/3 power from Lookout), KWGN (1/2 power from Lookout) and KBDI.

But they are broadcasting low power so it's impossible to receive, and deny me a waiver.