TiVo set to launch in Taiwan Thursday (article) [Text View]

Justin Thyme

12-06-2005, 02:50 PM

When Microsoft went international, they doubled in size the first year.

There are huge payoffs, in markets that are not obvious at first glance. For example, many people would be surprized to learn that the Indian middle class is 250 million- that is the US's population, and they are hungry for technology products. Further, most of the middle class spells english better than americans, and mistaken romanizations of hindi as I understand it make one the instant brunt of ridicule.

So you don't run into internationalizaiton issues for Tivo- first of which is missed hits due to varations of romanizations. In some languages, even proper names are romanized several different ways. Cyrillic characters for "Ludmila" could get romanized also as Liudmila, or Lyudmilla as well, and it is much worse for other words. Try doing an actor search with that kind of problem. Still, application of henry Kucera's Soundex algorithm will normalize such variations so the problem could be dealt with pretty effectively I suppose- provided you have an engineer motivated enough to encode the soundex algorithm for your data prep. YOu can probably license some C code if you want, but that's no fun.

That would be an issue for Taiwan as well. They only started moving over to Pinyin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin) recently (started teaching it in schools only in the 90's), and so there isn't a lot of uniformity in use yet.

But romanization deals with the second huge issue which is text entry. It's hard enough to enter text expressions for roman script. Can you imagine how hard to type in one of thousands of Chinese glyphs? Pinyin is definately the way to go.

TiVoPony

12-06-2005, 03:59 PM

Hot damn. Good on them. No doubt it is latin script chinese, so no way to tell if this also might mean they have internationalized their code base (at least unicode and large font library support).

According to TivoPony elsewhere on this board, Tivo continues to make investments to upgrade their infrastructure in the UK, so the article is at best misleading to say they have departed the UK market.

Just to be clear...we didn't make infrastructure improvements in the UK. The TiVo service has always been run from our server farm here in the US, even for UK subscribers (the Internet is a wonderful thing). We recently upgraded all of the servers hosting the UK version of the service - new servers & the latest software. They're running the equivalent of the US service now (from a server perspective).

Pony

peteypete

12-07-2005, 01:52 AM

Whud happened to Japan?

d_anders

12-07-2005, 10:18 AM

Whud happened to Japan?

Sony

Justin Thyme

12-07-2005, 05:58 PM

There were rumors and speculations in Japanese newspapers about that, but I don't recall anything official from Tivo confirming plans for Japan. Ramsay said something about exploring opportunities with cable partners in Japan, but they have a guy whose job it is to do that with everyone. There are some old threads about it here on TCF.

Still, Megazone pointed out at the time that Tivo had a job listing out for an engineer with Japanese UI design experience, but who knows what that was. Maybe they were jumping through an INS hoop for a new hire (to hire a foreign national, you have to show you couldn't find the needed skill from the US job pool.- so you advertise for some obscure, but not too obscure skill- tell the INS you made a good try so give this guy a job permit/ green card whatever).

Anyway, I don't recall anything specific confirming they actually planned to go into japan. Nor do I recall anything about Sony being involved in any way in blocking such a move. If anyone has more info, please chime in here.

It's true there is a lot of stuff to speculate about- Yahoo is affiliated with a company that has like 80% of the world's VOIP subscribers and they are involved with internet TV (IPTV), so maybe a Tivo triple play unit could be trialed there.

There are a lot of interesting opportunities out there in the world, and which ones Tivo moves on first will likely not be entirely predictable- if some carrier in Korea wanted to pull Tivo in as a partner and was ready to invest the money for the software port, then by golly we would see a Korean Tivo pretty darn fast.

TiVoPony

12-07-2005, 06:08 PM

Whud happened to Japan?

From our press release:

"TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ: TIVO ), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), and TGC , Inc., the exclusive TiVo partner in the China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, and Macao TV entertainment markets..."

This is a launch of TGC's new product in Taiwan...which makes sense as TGC is our partner in Taiwan. :)

Pony

dylanemcgregor

12-07-2005, 07:17 PM

I believe he was referring to the anouncement about a year ago that TiVo was looking to expand into Japan. I think that the PR that accompanied that announcement said that TiVo was looking to partner with a Japanese cable company, as far as I know nothing has come of that yet. Maybe if it does well in Taiwan? :)

Justin Thyme

12-07-2005, 10:02 PM

Japan is small potatoes. Last spring there were a lot of rumors and there was a Tokyo article that quoted Ramsay as saying they were looking into it. I don't recall anything official. Besides, I don't see what the huge opportunity would be there anyway.

What's different about Tivo's so called "Taiwan" annoucement is that it is official, but I totally missed a teensy detail. Maybe you weren't paying attention even though Bob went to the trouble of excerpting a very interesting portion of the announcement. This isn't just Taiwan. They have rights to sell into the PRC and greater China markets. In fact TGC means "Tivo Greater China". The importance of that is a little mind numbing.

Here's why.

China is projecting monumental growth in Cable subscribers in PRC. Compared to America's 67 million cable homes, take a guess what the PRC's cable home population was as of 2001: (highlight for the answer)
90 million cable Customerssource (http://english.people.com.cn/english/200103/19/eng20010319_65409.html)

Further, this isn't some idea cooked up in a bar at a conusmer electronics convention. Take a look at the leadership of TGC-America: None other than Ta-Wei Chien is president and CEO (http://www.tgc-usa.com/about.htm). (formerly Tivo's Senior VP in charge of technology and licensing business.) This is starting to looking pretty incestuous. Tivo also owns the largest stake in TGC. 40% as reported in last conference call. (All this was noted in a thread that DaveZatz started on 11-30 (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=273710). I guess I missed that too while I was on walkabout.)

And the TGC license (http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1088825/000119312504154240/dex101.htm) is pretty interesting too. Authorized to do business in PRC, TGC has standing to bring suit against anyone infringing on their or Tivo's IP. Maybe I misunderstand this, but it looks pretty fricking clever to me.

Especially section 10.1 b&c (excerpted):
(b) Patent Prosecution in Greater China. Company and TiVo will cooperate with each other to ensure that the Parties are obtaining proper patent coverage in Greater China. .....
(c) Company Assistance in Greater China. Company agrees to assist TiVo, at TiVo’s reasonable expense (except as otherwise provided in Section 10.1(b)(ii) above) and request, in prosecuting or registering TiVo’s IP Rights and rights in and to the TiVo Marks in the GC Regions.

I keep babbling about how chinese manufacturer's are going to bury everybody with cheap knockoffs of every CE device and here Tivo was years and years ago laying the groundwork to make sure that the cheap Tivo knockoffs were going to all be Tivos. Any one of the advantages would have been enough to set such a structure up:
IP defence, low cost manufacturing partners in PRC, income from a burgeoning market that is already larger than the US's, and will soon be double.

peteypete

12-08-2005, 02:32 AM

Surely, china is a bigger market than Japan, but Japan has a more tech sophisticated and richer population. I am a bit surprised that china is coming before japan, but it's all good. I suspect the legal/competive landscape in Japan is a little more difficult than taiwan. Still, i think Japan is no small beans. Also IP protection there is probably better.

Justin Thyme

12-08-2005, 09:34 AM

Yeah. I know on the face of it you think Japan = rich, China = poor. China= exporter. China not = consumer. Reality is often different than stereotypes.

1) First off. Japan really is small potatoes. Comcast alone has 21 million homes. The total number of cable homes in Japan is 10 million, and fairly static. The China cable population was nearly 10 times that in 2001. If I was less lazy I would look up where there are today, but the point is, the china number is exploding. You are right that the Japanese consumer has much more disposable income. But we are not talking about selling $1000 devices or even $500 devices. The goal is to manufacture them for practically nothing- and that is what the chinese do. If it turns out lots of chinese workers are being employed making Tivo DVRs, then TGR's complaints on patent infringement on behalf of Tivo have a great deal more weight. So both from a consumer and manufacturing standpoint, Japan is not anywhere near as significant as China.

2) "Japan is little more difficult"? Yep, and then some. Japan is legendary in its ability to lock out intruders into its markets. Most of it is highly informal. If you have a non japanese brand device under your TV people think maybe you are having financial problems or you are such a cretin you don't appreciate Japanese quality. If you were are in a business and need a manufacturer for a device you require, many companies are so large that you can buy from a different division of the company, and to consider anything else would be a poor career move. If you are free to go outside, you use the old boy network, or the old boy network gets used on you. Some old university buddies on the golf course decide what your business group's hardware choices are going to be regardless what choice was a slam dunk as indicated in the mounds of documents you provided for the senior leadership. Of course such golf course arrangements are always mutually beneficial.

3) With an mature market of CE companies, carriers, and content suppliers in Japan, you get guys like the head of a major broadcaster in japan saying that skipping commercials is against copyright law. He was totally serious, and if you think entrenched interests in the US was bad, Japan will make the MPAA and NTCA look like amateurs.

Even though they are smaller markets, if some French or Australian or Japanese carrier was interested in using Tivo technology on whatever DVR they wanted to use, I am sure Tivo is positioned well for a deal and certainly something may be cooking in regards to Japan. Both Sony and Toshiba have manufactured Tivos in the past so that avenue is open. Doing a triple play Tivo device linking up with Yahoo's Broadband affiliate in Japan would have been interesting, but it looks like they have gone with NDS for their IPTV rollout (http://www.iptv-asia.net/content/view/45/28/).

Justin Thyme

12-08-2005, 03:56 PM

http://www.businessweekly.com.tw/image/pool/2005/11/e083cc03c55e7e00f0252af9868695b4.jpg
Possible Taiwan/ Shanghai Tivo Unit.

Business weekly Taiwan has a picture of what I assume is of the TGC branded Tivo that will be sold into the Taiwan market.

It mentions that the next step after Taiwan is Shanghai [source (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=zt_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessweekly.com.tw%2Fwebfineprint.ph p%3Fid%3D21579)- see caption under picture]. This is a huge huge market. This article assumed that the model would be as a subcription based service as in the US, but had no info on fees or the retail price of the unit.

The form factor is very similar to a 540 unit. It will be interesting to see a picture of the motherboard when these finally hit the street. It would be a surprise if it were substantially different from a standard Broadcom based series two (aka series 2.5) which currently manufactured Standard definition Tivos use.

Hew

12-08-2005, 05:05 PM

Systems should have gone on sale today. So I'm sure a few people already have it sitting by their TV.

If someone could take a picture of the system, the box and so and post it on here it would be great. I don't understand why they haven't announced pricing since they should be on retail stores by now.

Justin Thyme

12-08-2005, 07:01 PM

Here's my crackpot idea of the day.

Matt at PVRBlog did a great interview of Michael Cronan- designer of the Tivo logo. At the close of the interview, Michael made the following remark
"TiVo has the potential to be what marketers call a Branded House, meaning that the brand evokes a level of trust that it can offer a large array of products and experiences. I actually think, from a brand perspective, TiVo has an advantage as a Branded House over Yahoo and Google. I'd bet that most people who know TiVo and Google would buy a TiVo toaster before a Google toaster."
I never really thought about it, but he's right. Tivo evokes an unusual amount of trust and goodwill. This is a leveragable asset of the company. Tivo works up into the space that taps into a general frustration that folks have about a lot of gadgets. Why does the blinking thing always flash 12:00 if I do any little thing wrong? What technology product can I give a grandmother and be reasonably confident that she can figure out how to use it?

Why the ramble about the brand? Combine Tivo's reputation for quality and trust with Chinese manufacturing might. Sure there are a several dozen chinese companies making a digital camera. Easy to use? reliable? Who the heck is TCL anyway?

So what? After all Sony has a camcorder plant in china too? Yeah, but have you tried to use a Sony camcorder recently? Try to hit the fade button on any of the screen oriented ones. It requires 5 button presses.

Tivo digital camera? Tivo Camcorder? Tivo portable media player?

So you take the Tivo design process and apply it to every electronics product. TGC lines up the manufacturing muscle and the crucial QC at the plants. Tivo Corp evolves from being just a one trick pony.

dmdeane

12-08-2005, 07:17 PM

Tivo digital camera? Tivo Camcorder? Tivo portable media player?

So you take the Tivo design process and apply it to every electronics product. TGC lines up the manufacturing muscle and the crucial QC at the plants. Tivo Corp evolves from being just a one trick pony.
You have stumbled on to TiVo's sinister plan and will have to be eliminated. Bwahaha! :p

Not a bad line of thinking actually but probably a bit more than TiVo can manage with what is on its plate currently. I could see this evolving naturally as extensions and evolutions to the existing TV oriented platform, however (after all, TiVo was originally Teleworld, a home automation system, before they wisely decided to concentrate on a TV DVR). Consider the consumer frustrations with multiple remotes. Tie the TiVo interface in with a user friendly universal learning remote, TiVo branded and TiVo ergonomically engineered of course. Likewise with portable video players. Then cameras and camcorders. I think that's probably still far off, though; still an interesting thought.

ChuckyBox

12-08-2005, 07:28 PM

[ ... ] Tivo Corp evolves from being just a one trick pony.

I just want TiVo to use their great name and great web address (tivo.com -- you have to admit, it's pretty good) and create a content destination. "Downloadable content from the TiVo Network." They should start serving cool content that you can download to your PC or Mac and, of course, your TiVo box. They could start small, with quirky or niche content, and work up to the bigger stuff. Free stuff. Support it with ads (embedded in the content and sitting on the web site). Maybe some stuff exclusive to TiVo subs.

They could leverage their search interface, their ad relationships, the capabilities of the broadband-connected boxes, with a brand that everybody knows. On the flip side, the content site would be a great place to advertise the box and the service. That's synergy, baby! ;)

The TV world is changing, and fast. TiVo needs to seize this opportunity to be part of the new paradigm.

Justin Thyme

12-08-2005, 08:08 PM

I see Tivo as being more than a revolutionary who brought about a radically different weltanschauung of how we interact with video (if that weren't enough).

They are a more fundamental revolutionary in that they have demonstrated a knowledge how to make ease-of-use drive design, rather than UI being a kind of wallpaper we put up over an engine as a kind of end of the process afterthought.

People at user interface design conferences have been in agreement for decades that this sort of design process is exactly what is necessary. It's a motherhood and apple pie position. But the group dynamics and management discipline to make that process successful is a huge challenge. Maybe Tivo's design success was a one-off fluke like xerox alto. The ongoing innovations from Tivo suggest that it was not a one-off. If Tivo has actually revolutionized that process, and can replicate it- well then- they have an incredibly powerful tool that can be applied to a much broader range of CE products than those concerning video.

ChuckyBox

12-08-2005, 10:14 PM

Here is a post on the TiVo stock message board over at Yahoo that gives brief summaries of three articles from Taiwan. The articles themselves are in Chinese, but the middle link (from Taiwan c|net) has pictures and screenshots. Enjoy.

http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=1600408754&tid=tivo&sid=1600408754&mid=343997

megazone

12-09-2005, 01:44 AM

Ooh, they have Ethernet ports!

ccwf

12-09-2005, 02:31 AM

Hot damn. Good on them. No doubt it is latin script chinese, so no way to tell if this also might mean they have internationalized their code base (at least unicode and large font library support). The c|net article (http://taiwan.cnet.com/computer/first_take/0,2000071393,20103047,00.htm) linked above shows hanzi in some of the screenshots.
http://taiwan.cnet.com/sharedmedia/Computer%20channel/Digital%20Living/tivo_ft/tivo_01.jpg (http://taiwan.cnet.com/computer/first_take/0,2000071393,20103047,00.htm)

Justin Thyme

12-09-2005, 03:44 AM

I was all wrong about Pinyin Charles. From the third screen over, the now playing titles appear to be multibyte, and I have no idea what that illegible junk on the 4th screen is, but I would guess the guide is too. No way to know what encoding they used, but whatever- this involved a lot more than a string substitution type port. I know you have experience in this field so perhaps you have some thoughts on how you would do a keyword wishlist entry using a remote. a chinese onscreen keyboard? Jeez. I thought roman text entry was hard enough. If they dumped keyword wishlists, then all strings- actors, directors, titles could all be offered from picklists- with "chapter"callouts to jump ahead in the picklist.

Overview impressions- A successful internationalization port of the Tivo Software. This is a nontrivial work item to adapt Tivo's software to a majorly different language- this isn't just bitmaps- they have to have support for multibyte character sets to display Now playing list and Guide database interactions. There is a nice improvement in the interfaces supported, (addition of an ethernet port will probably mean transfers will be faster than any previous tivo), but this appears to be an otherwise stock 2.5 capability device. When we hear of transfer times for TTG functionality, we will know if the remuxing processing bottleneck has been addressed in a substantial way.

I don't read chinese- the translation from which I extracted the following specifications is here. (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=zt_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftaiwan.cnet.com%2Fcomputer%2Ffirst_take%2F0 %2C2000071393%2C20103047%2C00.htm)

http://taiwan.cnet.com/sharedmedia/Computer%20channel/Digital%20Living/tivo_ft/tivo_05.jpg
Features:
analog input- no cable direct connection
160 GB HD
1 Ethernet port, standard RJ45
2 USB 2.0 ports, future use to support storage installation
mpeg2 encoding
720x540 resolution !
standard SD video inputs and outputs Svideo, composite.
no "optical" audio- assume that means no 5.1 dolby.
14 day guide
Main screens in chinese glyphs. Screen shot of now playing list is difficult to make out characters, but they aren't roman glyphs

Monthly fee based subscription One year of subscription valued at NT$1,500 ($44 or $3.60/mo)

Introductory offer:
NT$12,900- $384 USD. (Best buy sells a 140GB Tivo for $349)
free installation
Free first year subscription
Dlink wireless connector included free.

Missing from article-
Where was this puppy manufactured?
no mention of dvd burner unit (though complaints about this being missing)
any mention of TTG/HME features
method of inputing text to navigate guide (title, actor searches) of course the US way is not the only way- you can have items in the list as kind of chapters to jump you ahead in a pick list. I think I was way offbase about Pinyin (romanized chinese) though.
No suggestion on where the mothership servers are. At Tivo's US facility? (I assume so, since that is what TivoPony said they do for the UK).

Odd things- Let's assume the ethernet port is a modification that will only appear on Chinese market Tivos. Ok. Why is the rear panel in english then?
USB external storage- was this just speculation on the reporter's part, or are they making a firm commitment to provide external drive support? For Playback only like a linkplayer, or for archiving too, or for Direct recording use?
Are they shooting for the high end market first? Why enter with a high capacity, high cost unit instead of a 40GB unit?
There is a picture of a dlink wireless device that I have never seen before, except maybe in very blurry form on TivoJerry's tall stack. It has a what appears to be a directional antennae.
http://taiwan.cnet.com/sharedmedia/Computer%20channel/Digital%20Living/tivo_ft/tivo_06.jpg

http://taiwan.cnet.com/sharedmedia/Computer%20channel/Digital%20Living/tivo_ft/tivo_02.jpg

Hew

12-09-2005, 07:30 AM

ccwf

12-09-2005, 08:49 AM

I know you have experience in this field so perhaps you have some thoughts on how you would do a keyword wishlist entry using a remote. a chinese onscreen keyboard? Jeez. I thought roman text entry was hard enough. It would be awkwardly possible. But here's a little-known, important fact: many older Taiwanese are pretty lousy with all the phonetic systems (although the younger generation can type pretty rapidly).

If I were in charge, I would market wireless tablet add-ons to allow users to input text by handwriting. Maybe also allow input via Palm Pilot (there are Palm programs that can do Traditional Chinese handwriting recognition and send IR to TiVo DVRs).

Justin Thyme

12-09-2005, 11:02 AM

The Taiwan offering is a better deal then any offering over here.

160 gig hard drive
free wireless adapter
free shipping
first year of service included, no monthly fees for a year.
$3.75 monthly fee.

All for 400 dollars.

Now wasn't there another article saying that a similar dvr in Taiwan, would sell for something around $2,300? This deal will easily make TiVo the choice over any other DVR in their market.I know nothing about the Taiwan market, but pricing no doubt reflected the typical pattern of shooting high then ratcheting down to lock onto a price the market will bear. Once they start manufacturing on the chinese mainland (if they haven't already), they will be able to sell it into the Shanghai market for pocket change. As for comparison with american prices, you can make a 300GB Tivo for $79 (free 40gb Tivo, $79 300GB MIR outpost.com Seagate, obligation for one year sub ($156). So double the capacity Tivo for $230. A real penny pincher would by a lifetime and recover 90% of the lifetime when they resell on ebay, so that would bring it down to sub $100.

Sure HD swaps are not for civilians but cottage industries pop up overnight, and believe me- The Taiwanese and mainland folks are going to figure out the HD swap stuff real real fast.

So ironically, when you see Tivo Greater China (TGC) coming out with the economy 40GB models, you are going to see the very high end simultaneously served (800GB tivos). It will be very interesting to see how personal video evolves on the mainland where access to extremely low cost video is common.

Once a few more articles come out, I will have a few chinese national friends of mine read the articles and explain these odd expressions. For example, I didn't understand what level of system functionality they have. If you look at the translation, there are references to photos and music but I was not too sure how much of HMO features are there. They may not have ported all the hmo/hme/ttg features yet, but to get a bead on the ethernet port improvement, at least it would be interesting to hear how fast an MRV transfer of a half hour show is on a wired connection.

davezatz

12-09-2005, 11:19 AM

Justin, I can't say for certain but believe that is a typical Dlink wireless USB adapter in a stand... so you can place it further away from the unit using a USB extension cable on in certain cases where directly plugging a USB device will block access to other ports (such as my 140HR S2 which has a blocked AV output). I have gotten a similar accessory with other WiFi USB adapters.

Justin Thyme

12-09-2005, 11:31 AM

Just to be clear...we didn't make infrastructure improvements in the UK. The TiVo service has always been run from our server farm here in the US, even for UK subscribers (the Internet is a wonderful thing). We recently upgraded all of the servers hosting the UK version of the service - new servers & the latest software. They're running the equivalent of the US service now (from a server perspective).

PonyTivoPony- just curious. Is this the way the TGC service works? Unified backend in the US, or do they have their own? Is it also running "the equivalent of the US service" (from a server perspective) now?

If so that would be an awesome achievement.

Justin Thyme

12-09-2005, 01:39 PM

This just in. Possibly Tatung is manufacturing? The quoted article confirms some of the specs and price points I related yesterday. New stuff is the distributors. Will followup later on them- curious about mainland connections. also, name that it goes by is Tivo 8. Wonder what that is about.

"TiVo 8 will be sold through Tatung, a local manufacturer of consumer electronics and electrical home appliances, Synnex Technology International, a 3C distributor in Taiwan, and PChome Online" Source. (http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20051209A7045.html)

ccwf

12-09-2005, 03:01 PM

Will followup later on them- curious about mainland connections. also, name that it goes by is Tivo 8. Wonder what that is about. "8" is a lucky number. You'll often see prices at Chinese supermarkets like $2.88, $3.88, and so forth.

ChuckyBox

12-09-2005, 03:40 PM

This just in. Possibly Tatung is manufacturing?

No. Universal Scientific Industrial. It says so in the article you quoted (very last line):

TGC introduces TiVo to Taiwan market
Shawn Chen, Taipei; Adam Hwang, DigiTimes.com [Friday 9 December 2005]

TGC (TiVo Greater China) Taiwan, the Taiwan subsidiary of US-based TGC, on December 8 debuted the TiVo 8, a 160GB HDD (hard disk drive) DVR (digital video recorder) model based on TiVo technology, for launch in the Taiwan market at a recommended retail price of NT$12,900 (US$385).
TGC was founded specifically for marketing TiVo DVRs and related services in Taiwan, China, Hong Kong, and Singapore, with TiVo being the largest shareholder, according to TGC Taiwan. Taiwan is the first of the four target markets, mainly due to its high penetration of broadband Internet-access services and cable TV, said general manager Travis Lin for TGC Taiwan.
TiVo 8 will be sold through Tatung, a local manufacturer of consumer electronics and electrical home appliances, Synnex Technology International, a 3C distributor in Taiwan, and PChome Online, an on-line shopping web portal in Taiwan, Lin indicated. Apart from the cost of the TiVo 8, an annual service fee of NT$1,500 (US$45) will be charged beginning from the second year after purchase, Lin noted. TGC Taiwan aims to sell 40,000-50,000 units a year, Lin added.
In addition to marketing, Tatung is interested in ODM/OEM production of TiVo products for TGC, according to company general manager WS Lin. Currently, Taiwan-based Universal Scientific Industrial is the OEM maker of TiVo products for TGC.

http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/NewsSearch.asp?DocID=5090678C0243B7F6482570D1004AA21F&query=TIVO

Hew

12-09-2005, 05:32 PM

How will TGC affect TiVo's future numbers?

Will TGC's subscribers be counted as TiVo subscribers?

If not why not? They are using TiVo, even though they aren't paying monthly fees directly to TiVo. Lifetime member subs that have gone beyond the 3 years are still counted in the sub numbers, so I don't see why TGC's subs shouldn't be counted just because they don't pay directly to TiVo.

Any word yet on wether TiVo will be able to sell advertising on TGC's box's?

davezatz

12-09-2005, 05:43 PM

How will TGC affect TiVo's future numbers? Will TGC's subscribers be counted as TiVo subscribers? Any word yet on wether TiVo will be able to sell advertising on TGC's box's?

Good questions... with the company being a seperate entity only partially owned by TiVo, I imagine subscriber numbers would be reported seperately. It also raises the question of how do they license the TiVo technology? I don't know a thing about international business, but I wonder why they didn't go in as themselves...

(Instead of creating a seperate company or going it alone, D&M is licensing their ReplayTV technology to what looks like a pre-existing company: http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/about/replaytv/press.asp?ID=612)

Justin Thyme

12-09-2005, 06:58 PM

No. Universal Scientific Industrial. It says so in the article you quoted (very last line):]
Thanks. I will have to learn to quit speed reading one of these days. :o

I took a look at the Online store where the "Tivo 8" is being sold. Cool to see.
http://ec1img.pchome.com.tw/dvdrwhd/img/DVH00043l.jpg
Little fella in his new clothes.
The CNET Taiwan article that I excerpted above was almost a total lift of the material on the Taiwan online shopping site (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=zt_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fshopping.pchome.com.tw%2fdvdrwhd%2fdetail .php%3fpid%3dDVH00043). Here's the translation page.

There are some new pictures and a bit more confirmation on the capabilities.
http://ec1img.pchome.com.tw/static/2005/12/08/6107041133976217.gif
I know I have seen a rear panel like this before. But where?

Yep, down to the screw locations- it pretty much looks like a 540 with the exception of the ethernet port. They must have used the same dies, etc.

Other new info:
The "photo album" description from this text may well be an idiomatic expression or a marketing metaphor to describe the now playing list as if it were a "photo album" of treasured television shows. It doesn't sound like HMO slideshow at all.
No network functionality at all that I see, besides guide. No MRV, no HMO, no HME. Which makes sense. You go with your first phase of the port, then bite off more.
No confirmation of any future use of the USB ports (CNET article seemed to state external storage use).

davezatz

12-09-2005, 07:11 PM

The CNET Taiwan article that I excerpted above was almost a total lift of the material on the Taiwan online shopping site (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=zt_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fshopping.pchome.com.tw%2fdvdrwhd%2fdetail .php%3fpid%3dDVH00043). Here's the translation page.

Wow... the Babelfish engine is definitely superior to Google's BETA:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fshopping.pchome.com.tw%2Fdvdrwhd%2F detail.php%3Fpid%3DDVH00043&langpair=zh-CN%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

The "TiVo weapon milk function" scares me. Though I feel compelled to ask if that's included in the service fee? ;)

Back to your regularly scheduled thread...

Justin Thyme

12-09-2005, 10:18 PM

WOW. I missed that one: (under screen shots heading "what is tivo")
"TIVO weapon milk function :
(1) Item defends delta sweeps. TIVO may watch item, does 30 minute [unintelligible), defends three-horse harness team. A remains, you may [unintelligible) or go the refrigerator take the material, then return again watch 30 minute decayed teeth."

Wow. Tivo is using Taiwan to test market some sort of autonomous function that watchfully will protect my horses with this Milk weapon that somehow decays the infiltrator's teeth within 30 minutes.

Naturally, there is no mention of sheep protection. TivoPony? Do you have any firm time frame for Sheep protection support? No marketspeak. We want a firm date.

ChuckyBox

12-10-2005, 09:46 AM

Yep, down to the screw locations- it pretty much looks like a 540 with the exception of the ethernet port. They must have used the same dies, etc.

Okay, let's have a show of hands: How many of you think the next production run of the U.S. Series 2 boxes will include an ethernet port? Faster processor? More memory?

Somebody needs to pop one of the Taiwanese boxes open, because that's going to tell us where we are going.

No network functionality at all that I see, besides guide. No MRV, no HMO, no HME. Which makes sense. You go with your first phase of the port, then bite off more.
The articles indicated that the service would be more basic than what is currently available in the U.S. That makes sense from a marketing point of view, too -- there's no point in confusing your story with a lot of value-added features when nobody even has the basic features yet.

It is interesting that the box has a phone jack, but there is no mention of telephone support -- only internet. Does anybody know how well-wired Taiwan is with broadband and home networks?

Fl_Gulfer

12-10-2005, 10:25 AM

Cool Now will get some real hacks.

Justin Thyme

12-10-2005, 11:32 AM

Okay, let's have a show of hands: How many of you think the next production run of the U.S. Series 2 boxes will include an ethernet port? Faster processor? More memory?

Somebody needs to pop one of the Taiwanese boxes open, because that's going to tell us where we are going.

Tivo is software.

From a software perspective, you want to have as homogeneous a hardware platform as possible. Then when you have a new software release, you can easily propagate it to all devices. Look how long it took TTG to come to the DVD burners. For the future, the reduction in variant platforms means that you have fewer sources of bugs due to unanticipated subtle hardware interactions in legacy devices. My feeling is that existing SA Tivos are going to be around for a long long time to come. The parts that break can be fixed, so until the cost of replacement comes down to the cost of a repair, you are going to have a hefty number of legacy devices.

But this sort of conservative approach to hardware updgrades is related to whatever Tivo's software development philosophy is. I'm a big fan of simultaneus builds and testing for all platforms and a single unified code base. Do a weekly build to all platforms both single and double byte character versions, big and little endian. You catch problems with poor coding practice before they pollute too much of your code base. But the software for each Tvo model may well not come from the same code base and might actually be a fork due to complexity of squeezing the last drop of performance out of proprietary hardware which used barely enough computing power to get the job done.. The only stuff I did of that was very old school- all assembler and direct manipulation of memory mapped memory io locations with critical timing dependencies. Any change in hardware meant that all timing dependent interactions would have to be retuned and retested regardless how distant they were from the hardware change. Anyway, the point of this ramble into unified software bases is that it is hard to do at first when you are pushing the hardware to the limit, but it becomes easier as hardware perfomance is sufficient to be more forgiving and smarter so that you can upgrade to new software releases rapidly. The programming staff can spend much more time on new features than porting and tweaking for all the different variants (140, 240, 540, "560" (dvd burner).

So I think it would be a mistake to expect the kind of incremental hardware variations you see added each year to general purpose computing platforms where it doesn't matter because software is insulated by drivers, or added each year to totally hardware oriented CE devices where it doesn't matter becase software is an afterthought.

That's bad news for tech whores like us, but good news for Everyman (aka joe average user).

With GP computing it is easy where the hardware is virtualized and all you have to do is write a new driver (which usually is provided by the device vendor). With hardware oriented CE devices, the hardware engineers don't give a rat's *ss about the software implications and will break the software to get the latest and greatest chip in. There are no legacy issues because as you see, software updates maybe last the first year (and then only to fix bugs), then there is nothing.

So Tivo is in that middle ground, and something has to give. ONe thing you can do is try not to dribble out incremental hardware improvements, and instead put more of them in fewer models

If dvrs were already well known in the Taiwan market, and there was a lot of demand there for high end features, I think you could have seen a major new experimental platform in Taiwan. But the huge market for greater China is in the Tivo for Everyman. The SA architecture machine.

When we get a shot of the TGC motherboard, I think you are going to see the same broadcom chips. I think there is a chance for variations using chips that are even cheaper or using chips manufactured in PRC (for political, not technical advantages).

On the other hand, the US machines won't always lead with new features. Some features are easier to do in Greater china markets. For example, whenever the high end market emerges and you see HDTV broadcasts there, you probably will see analog encoding of HDTV (components) inputs first in China. Obvsiously, it may take a while for the demand for HDTV devices to grow in China, but the opposition to HDTV encoding shows no signs of ever slackening in the US.

This is all just armchair engineering opinion, but I think some of the considerations I touched on play a part in the decisions Tivo is making on minor upgrades to the platforms.

ccwf

12-10-2005, 11:35 PM

Wow... the Babelfish engine is definitely superior to Google's BETA Well, Google's beta only handles Simplified Chinese (used on the mainland and in Singapore). That page uses Traditional Chinese (used elsewhere, including Taiwan).

Justin Thyme

12-12-2005, 06:52 PM

... I wonder why they didn't go in as themselves... It is surprizing how something minor like the broadcast flags gets such huge attention and things like Tivos in greater China gets practically zip attention.

I don't suppose you have developed any theories on why TGC is developed at arms length from Tivo?

davezatz

12-12-2005, 07:23 PM

I don't suppose you have developed any theories on why TGC is developed at arms length from Tivo?

I don't... I would imagine it probaly has to do with international business rules and dealings, and perhaps insulating themselves in some way. Maybe some SEC rules get in the way? I just don't know much about how business works at that level. (I do have a few theories regarding Apple not releasing a DVR next month, though:))

If I haven't mentioned it before, I was corresponding with Thomas Hawk (www.thomashawk.com) about this and he found it strange that the press release (http://www.tivo.com/cms_static/press_68.html) refers exclusively to "TGC" and that they've migrated from the name "TiVo Greater China."

ZeoTiVo

12-12-2005, 07:24 PM

It is surprizing how something minor like the broadcast flags gets such huge attention and things like Tivos in greater China gets practically zip attention.

I don't suppose you have developed any theories on why TGC is developed at arms length from Tivo?

actually it was not at arms length at all. It was very much a TiVo involved venture and got some threads here on what was up with it when they started up about a year ago. It was always to make a unit for the far east and also to give TiVo more hardware manufacturing options. It even has the possibility of letting "TiVo inc." become a total software company and TGC become the hardware branch along with software versions for Asia.

Dajad

12-12-2005, 08:03 PM

I find it staggering that TiVo has chosen to launch in Taiwan BEFORE Canada. Do we smell? Are you angry that Canada didn't support the U.S. in the Iraq war (I did). We here in Canada can access the TiVo service but only if we go through the pain-in-the-butt process of ordering boxes from the U.S., and paying outragous brokerage and shipping fees.

Really, was it THAT MUCH EASIER to launch in another languge in a country a couple thousand miles away, vs. launching right next door?

I'm REALLY confused by this.

...Dale

Justin Thyme

12-12-2005, 08:22 PM

Canada doesn't have 90 million cable customers.
...TGC become the hardware branch along with software versions for Asia.Did Tivo come out and officially and put it that way? That makes it tough to approach an OEM and try to persuade them to license and build a Tivo powered device if you come out and say you are also going to compete with them head to head.

Dajad

12-12-2005, 10:28 PM

Canada has a higher per/capita cable penetration than does the U.S. Canada is larger than California has more cabled-homes. I note that California is served by Tivo.

ccwf

12-12-2005, 11:59 PM

Canada has a higher per/capita cable penetration than does the U.S. Canada is larger than California has more cabled-homes. I note that California is served by Tivo. That's because California smells better. :p :D

Justin Thyme

12-13-2005, 03:32 AM

Well, my crackpot theory of the day is that on one dark day when the MPAA comes to threaten the mother of all lawsuits unles Tivo does some [fill in the blank onerous change in Tivo behavior], then whoever the Tivo CEO is pushes back in his chair and says.

"Well, I'm sorry, but the board is completely behind me on this and we just can't comply. We will fight and know it will be extremely expensive. So we have decided that effective on your filing of this suit that we shall prepare our legal defence fund by selling worldwide rights of Tivo Patents to TGC, and be making an IPO listing on the Hang Seng of TGC, divesting ourselves of our 40% holdings."

"Naturally, their investors will want TGC to come out with the kind of features we think in the long term would hurt the Studios. One popular feature would be to copy files without any encryption. This actually could be accomplished as a minor software upgrade that could be sold as a chinese product to all current Tivo owners...."

"Lord knows what other things that TGC might come up with, since they don't have the same spirit of cooperation that Tivo has tried to foster with the Studios."

"TGC may be your worst nightmare come true, and as a Chinese company employing thousands of workers you will find it very difficult to establish any kind of leverage on them, short of attempting to block import of one of America's most beloved products."

"But of course you understand our position. We will require funds to defend ourselves and will have no choice."

"But maybe we can work out some sort of alternate arrangement instead...."

"Get back to me when you have discussed it with your handlers, Good Day."

lajohn27

12-13-2005, 08:42 AM

Dale:

To answer your question => Yeah.. it was easier.. much MUCH MUCH EASIER.

All TIVO did was license the platform to a company over there for a joint venture about a year ago. All during that time, work has been progressing on testing, developing the systems, all by the company that licensed the TIVO backend.

A little research I did on this reveals they are launching with a version of the TIVO software that is roughly equivalent in terms of features and abilities with the 2.0 version of the software here in North America. No HME features for example.

TIVO isn't providing any of the support for this. They are providing the backend systems and the know-how. That's it. It's pretty much a straight licensing deal with part ownership.

Contrast that to Canada.. where they will be providing ALL the support, the hardware.. etc... and launching with the current version of the software with all HME features enabled etc. I suspect by spring there will even be Showcases for the Canadian market. (just a feeling - I have nothing to base that on)

TIVO's *will be* in stores in Canada in February ~ April timeframe. This will coincide with new HD capable boxes as well as (probably) new standard definition hardware. I can't blame them for waiting tho really.

If they launch in Canadian retail channels now with the current generation of hardware and then debut new boxes in February what will happen? The customers are mad that TIVO didn't tell them that new boxes were coming. TIVO's biggest mistake in prepping their Canada launch from what I can tell, was tipping their hand before they were really ready. It's just created bad blood across the board(s).

Proof positive you can't please any of the people any of the time is available in many many threads at these message boards -- IMHO, TIVO is really just covering their a** as regards the Canadian market.

Now, for some clue that new versions of boxes are coming - notice that the more expensive and larger capacity boxes are now disappearing from retail channels. You can't buy a 140 hour S2 anymore. The 300 Hr Humax boxes are no longer being made. The 80 DVD Humax box is no longer being made. The last time that larger capacity boxes started disappearing .. was just before the S2 540 series nightlight edition showed up on store shelves.

I suspect the hardware you see listed in this thread could very well be the future of the standard definition hardware in North America. Higher resolution video, bigger processor, more memory, bigger harddrive, probably better encoding chips and possibly even MP4 support (?!).. and with 160 GB of storage.. would nicely replace the 140 hr unit...

I mean really, stop and think about it. From TIVO's point of view, there would be no point in having stocked, support and developed a warranty program, service centers etc.. for Canadian retail channels with boxes you were discontinuing in less than 60 to 90 days.

It's short term pain.. for longer term gain in this case.

Frankly, I think TIVO is wise to enter the Canadian market with an HD capable box that can compete with the cablecos; or at the very least a redesigned standard definition box perhaps with improved features (like we see in Taiwan)

You could very well ask "How hard would it be for TIVO to launch that Ethernet capable higher resolution box in North America before Taiwan?" -- the answer is the same.

.

Justin Thyme

12-13-2005, 10:47 AM

Did you look into Universal Scientific much? (The folks doing the manufacturing?) Interestingly, they have a plant in Mexico which I presume they can use for assembly and thereby use Nafta to get the cheapest import price into North American markets.

I didn't look far enough to verify the theory that this setup would allow them to do board and component manufacture in PRC, TGC management and engineering in Taiwan, and assembly in Mexico.

If it is true what Zeo said, such a structure would allow the new CC HD Tivo to achieve extremely low price points.

Justin Thyme

12-15-2005, 04:46 PM

Article today that has some minor additional info (http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2005/dec/1224288.htm). Annual sales target for taiwan 40-50K units. Tatung says they are focusing on DVR development., USI contract is only for Tivos sold in Asia. No mention of PRC- which is like not talking about the elephant in the room- conspicuous by its absence.

megazone

12-15-2005, 06:18 PM

No mention of PRC- which is like not talking about the elephant in the room- conspicuous by its absence.[/list]TiVo mentioned China in their original press release several weeks ago:

TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ: TIVO ), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), and TGC , Inc., the exclusive TiVo partner in the China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, and Macao TV entertainment markets, today announced the expected upcoming availability of the first DVR with TiVo technology in Taiwan for retail purchase, where overall cable penetration is over 80 percent.

Justin Thyme

12-15-2005, 06:33 PM

Yeah, and earlier Shanghai was mentioned as the next step for TGC after taiwan- which surprizes me since I thought SCN was in bed with OpenTv.

I just would have thought we would have had more information on the plans regarding the mainland manufacturing and retailing.

Hew

12-15-2005, 08:18 PM

lajohn27

12-15-2005, 08:33 PM

Could someone here who is familier with FreeView tell me what it is. I've read a few posts from the TiVo UK Thread and have seen that FreeView subscriptions are in the millions. It almost sounded like a type of cablecard device.

If it is a Cablecard Device then TiVo could easily include the UK when it launches a CC TiVo DVR. TiVo's CEO has said that expansion to Europe was a top priority, could this be the way they get in?

Freeview is a service.. with its own set top box... or it works with the UK digital television standard built in to some new sets over there. I'm not sure that it's a 'cablecard' thing exactly.

Freeview of course gets into the home on a free basis, but then offers you upgrades to many 'pay services' as well.

Any TIVO hardware for the UK would have to be custom built - since the UK operates on a different television standard, a different electrical voltage and I'm dead sure that freeview H/W support is not the same as cablecard.

That's a lot of technical hurdles to 'fix' -- you'd be better off with a box built for that market.

More details at the link below.

http://www.freeview.co.uk/aboutus/

ccwf

12-15-2005, 08:35 PM

Could someone here who is familier with FreeView tell me what it is. Freeview is free, over-the-air, non-HD, digital TV.

Justin Thyme

12-15-2005, 08:41 PM

Not sure why freeview is germaine here. Do that have this in Hong Kong or something?
Any TIVO hardware for the UK would have to be custom built - since the UK operates on a different television standard, a different electrical voltage and I'm dead sure that freeview H/W support is not the same as cablecard.

That's a lot of technical hurdles to 'fix' ...http://www.freeview.co.uk/aboutus/I think the main one you didn't mention- no guide data. Having lived in Europe, I know that Pal->NTSC and generating 120 are insignificant obstacles.

So you could record with an SA- except for the fact there would be no guide for the channels, and maybe no IR code set compatible with the Freeview box.

I know the Kiwis and Ozzies are doing something down under to get Tivos to work, but surely they have no guide info. Surely they don't pay 12.95/mo and just set time and date.

TiVoStephen

12-15-2005, 09:09 PM

If I haven't mentioned it before, I was corresponding with Thomas Hawk (www.thomashawk.com) about this and he found it strange that the press release (http://www.tivo.com/cms_static/press_68.html) refers exclusively to "TGC" and that they've migrated from the name "TiVo Greater China."I can't really comment on much here, but I did want to point out there's no "migration" -- TGC was incorporated as TGC and has always been TGC, from the very first press releases about this. No one has "migrated" -- TGC is the name of the company and always has been.

davezatz

12-16-2005, 06:37 AM

I can't really comment on much here, but I did want to point out there's no "migration" -- TGC was incorporated as TGC and has always been TGC, from the very first press releases about this. No one has "migrated" -- TGC is the name of the company and always has been.

Interesting, thanks for clearing it up - I will pass the word on. If I remember correctly he thought he read "TiVo Greater China" in other materials but not within the latest set of announcements and articles. I'm wondering when we'll see TLA... you know, TiVo Lesser Antilles. ;)

ZeoTiVo

12-16-2005, 07:22 AM

I suspect the hardware you see listed in this thread could very well be the future of the standard definition hardware in North America. Higher resolution video, bigger processor, more memory, bigger harddrive, probably better encoding chips and possibly even MP4 support (?!).. and with 160 GB of storage.. would nicely replace the 140 hr unit... .

There it is in a nutshell. TiVo, inc. wants to be in the software business so it looks to be trying to move hardware core competence to a different group it has a large interest in, TGC. I looked back but did not find what I was thinking about in my post above but clearly TGC has taken the lead in improving the series 2 hardware and clearly TiVo still wants to attack the large analog market out there.

This will help the TiVo books considerably if they can put manufacturing overhead in another company and just "buy" the boxes for sale in this country. Also this way when they go into Europe they have the knowledge of having done this once and can replicate it if they chose with an European company if that eases entry into those markets or use TGC again to supply the boxes.

This way they freed up anyone at TiVo inc. with good engineering experience on the series 2 to refocus them on the cable card and let them advise on Comcast efforts as well.

davezatz

12-16-2005, 07:39 AM

TiVo, inc. wants to be in the software business

I'm not sure about them wanting to give up hardware design... from recent next-gen hardware engineering job postings it seems like they are keeping those skills and roles in-house. I remember you pointing out Roger's more proactive guidance - perhaps this is another example of grabbing the bull by the horns. Why not do both software, hardware, and service (in addition to parterning)? It's been working out fairly well so far!

The Comcast box is more of a software project, massaging their UI/OS onto the Motorola hardware and integrating whatever features Comcast needs (InDemand, unique adveritsing, etc).

ZeoTiVo

12-16-2005, 08:08 AM

I'm not sure about them wanting to give up hardware design... from recent next-gen hardware engineering job postings it seems like they are keeping those skills and roles in-house. I remember you pointing out Roger's more proactive guidance - perhaps this is another example of grabbing the bull by the horns. Why not do both software, hardware, and service (in addition to parterning)? It's been working out fairly well so far!

The Comcast box is more of a software project, massaging their UI/OS onto the Motorola hardware and integrating whatever features Comcast needs (InDemand, unique adveritsing, etc).

true, a better way to say it is TiVo does not want to be directly in the actual manufacturing of the box business.

The y do indeed want to be in the design of hardware business and have a core competence in that for media appliances. I would not be surprised to see the new CEO find some more directions he can employ his designers on, though I have no idea what that might be.

as to the Comcast I said advise, thinking of the engineers helping with hardware interaction and tweaking.

Justin Thyme

12-16-2005, 10:47 AM

HDTivo noted Rogers' repeated use of the theme "less insular" during last quarter's reporting. It can mean a lot of things. When you are tied to particular hardware designs, when you are tied to a particular OS, you tend to be more insular.

As general purpose platforms attempt to reside on the living room shelves under the television, and CE devices attempt to take on more general purpose computing platform features, does "less insular" mean that Tivo is willing to blur that edge between DVR and other devices? How much further than branching to other platforms like Comcast OpenCable architecture boxes? How about computers? Does it mean that he would partner with MS for a Vista-Tivo tight bundle? Does "less insular" mean Tivo would work with Cisco to totally replace Sci-Atl DVR software with a Video-caching-at-network-edge system to work with a proprietary Cisco IP backend systems for IPTV?

At the other end of the Tivo platform, does it mean that the Tivo Mothership begins to rely more on community resources with other data centers such as those of for integrating Yahoo/Microsoft Instant Messaging into video for chat sessions during the game, political event, or academy awards or Google Search services (such as Navigating to interesting Music, Image, or Video content via search related technology)?

Some of the things I mention are hardware- like a PCI-X board, but nearly all of them are for the most part significant in their software not hardware aspects.

Due to the absense of third party suppliers of low priced Tivo branded DVRs, Humax has leverage over Tivo. This is diminished by TGC. Though the terms of the agreement are not hostile to Tivo's OEM business since TGC is limitted only to the Asian markets, this is one Tivo can brush aside at will. Because there is significant price resistance to buying a box for video on the mainland, there will be plenty of excess TGC manufacturing capacity outside of Asia should Humax seek to establish a minimum price below which they will refuse to manufacture product for Tivo.

The second part is possibility of a poison pill defence as I described in a previous note about a hypothetical confrontation with the content industry.

TGC has triple significance: 1) burgeoning asian consumer market; 2) no "iron bottom" to the price point of low end Tivos for the US market and 3) poison pill defence.

I don't think it means much about whether Tivo is "in" or "out" of hardware. The center of their business model is Software and services. Hardware competence is essential to establishing the reference spec for running the software. Hardware solutions will continue to dominate until prices come down significantly for general purpose processing platforms with the capability to do multistream real time multitasking encoding/decoding DVR operations entirely in software. Maybe an XBOX 360 has the hardware grunt now, with the potential to hit the $250 mark in the next few years. The day is approaching, and Tivo will lift it's foot from one stone to the other as it crosses this stream. It is inevitable that software only solutions will one day dominate, and the hardware platform will be a commodity.

That won't happen for a long long time in PRC, so it makes sense for TGC's long term plans. It doesn't make sense for TIvo in the western countries, since the tipping point to a general purpose computing platform is approaching.

petestrash

12-18-2005, 08:52 AM

I know the Kiwis and Ozzies are doing something down under to get Tivos to work, but surely they have no guide info. Surely they don't pay 12.95/mo and just set time and date.

We use both US series 1 and 2 TiVo's as well as UK TiVos Downunder.

The UK tivos work fine, the US series 1's are software (and optionally hardware) modified to use PAL, the Series 2's use either NTSC or a Psudeo PAL (We haven't figured out full PAL yet :) )

As TiVo has no interest here, we run our own emulators providing full guide data just like a paid TiVo service but provided by volunteers.

The Same system is used in other PAL countries not supported by TiVo, like New Zealand, South Africa and The Netherlands.

We are very interested in this box, as it may help us crack complete PAL support on the S2's.

Peter

Justin Thyme

12-18-2005, 10:43 AM

Impressive. I understand you to mean that the TIVO OS has been hacked to download guide data from a different source? So you understand Tivo's guide format? Very cool.

Your intuitive guess- what's the rough size of the OZ Tivo community? Are we talking in terms of hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands?

For the S2's- What Tivo system OS are you working off of? 5.x? 7.x?

petestrash

12-18-2005, 11:33 AM

Your intuitive guess- what's the rough size of the OZ Tivo community? Are we talking in terms of hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands?

Around 900 TiVo's make daily calls to the Australian emulator, there also other units that have their data manually downloaded and are not included in these figures. But my guess would be less than 200 more.

For the S2's- What Tivo system OS are you working off of? 5.x? 7.x?

The ones in regular day to day use are 4.01b with swapped kernals. But there are very few S2's in use.

Some people are playing with 7.2.

Peter

lajohn27

12-18-2005, 12:10 PM

Up till recently it was done a little differently in Canada (ie: no central emulator.. everyone built their own data and fed it to their own respective TIVO(s) )

Same idea tho. Altho clearly no pal support was required here. Now that service is available in Canada (tho strangely, the hardware isn't yet).. most of us either have switched over (like myself) or are in the process of acquiring hardware from the states, importing it, and then subscribing.

ccwf

01-02-2006, 07:41 PM

More Taiwan info: Most everyone has cable since, without it, only about five OTA channels are available.
Everyone who gets cable gets the same package (although, oddly, it costs something like $20–35/month depending on where you live). This is a set package of about eighty channels including HBO, many movie channels, ESPN, NHK (Japan's premium/premier channel), CNN, and lots and lots of news and drama channels.
Because almost everyone gets them and because they are subbed, HBO series like Six Feet Under and Rome are popular in Taiwan.
CNN and NHK are neither dubbed nor subbed and seem unpopular. There's also a movie channel that shows undubbed/unsubbed movies in English. And there's an undubbed/unsubbed Hakka channel.
With the exceptions above, most content is in Mandarin or in a Hoklo/Mandarin mix and/or subbed in Chinese. This includes most movie channels.
Most Japanese and English content is a mix of subbed and dubbed. All Korean content seemed to be dubbed.
There's a daily Korean soap opera that seems popular. Many Korean series seems popular. Jewel in the Palace is very popular there (and is very popular here in the U.S. for an Asian series). My aunt and uncle even went to the Jewel in the Palace theme park.
Anime is very popular with kids and mostly dubbed.
Cable is analog. No cable boxes.
A fair number of people have HDTV sets.

cheerdude

01-02-2006, 08:22 PM

More Taiwan info:
There's a daily Korean soap opera that seems popular. Many Korean series seems popular. Jewel in the Palace is very popular there (and is very popular here in the U.S. for an Asian series). My aunt and uncle even went to the Jewel in the Palace theme park.

One of the PBS-ish stations in Philly (not PBS; but better than public access) shows Korean soap opera episodes every night (or so). I understand from my step-mom and aunt that these soaps have a following here in the US.

ccwf

01-02-2006, 08:35 PM

One of the PBS-ish stations in Philly (not PBS; but better than public access) shows Korean soap opera episodes every night (or so). I understand from my step-mom and aunt that these soaps have a following here in the US. WYBE

(I run the CJKDramas.com (http://CJKDramas.com/), the California board for Asian dramas, and am familiar/friendly with the admins for the other regional Asian drama boards. http://koreandramas.bishsite.com/ is the board for Korean dramas in Philly and the states nearby.)

cheerdude

01-02-2006, 09:12 PM

That's the one

Justin Thyme

01-02-2006, 09:27 PM

Cable is analog. No cable boxes.
A fair number of people have HDTV sets.
Thanks for the informative points. The last two points are curious. Does anyone play any HD content? Where does it come from?

I know the Broadband penetration is high in S Korea and Japan. Is that so in Taiwan? Or to put it in more concrete terms, for a household with an HD set, would a 20Mbit connection be the norm?

If this is the case, it seems to me the ideal hardware platform would be different than the US model. You would do something more like stick an Mpeg4 decoder chip in a current SA series2, beef up the network IO speed, and call it a day.

I presume the finance model for cable is the same- advertisements provide a major source of income to the cable companies. Is there extreme carrier hostility to DVR advertisement skipping similar to that expressed by Japan's networks?

ccwf

01-02-2006, 10:38 PM

Thanks for the informative points. The last two points are curious. Does anyone play any HD content? Where does it come from? I didn't see any HD content on cable, but HDTV programs are supposed to start being available this year (2006) with a transition to full digital in 2010.

HD-TV resolution DVDs and DVD players (1920×1080i and 1280×720p) have been available in Taiwan for about half a year. I know the Broadband penetration is high in S Korea and Japan. Is that so in Taiwan? I've read that South Korea is the most wired country in the world.

Overall, 70% of households in Taipei have broadband. In my visit to Taipei, wireless Internet connections seemed pretty common, and the government plans to make wireless access available throughout the city. (That's just from stuff I've read on the Internet. My cousin would know better: he's a senior VP for one of Taiwan's larger ISPs.) I presume the finance model for cable is the same- advertisements provide a major source of income to the cable companies. Is there extreme carrier hostility to DVR advertisement skipping similar to that expressed by Japan's networks? Not that I saw.

TivoZA

01-03-2006, 12:48 AM

cwerdna

01-03-2006, 12:55 AM

So where are all the Taiwanese users? Its been almost a month since TGC launched in Taiwan and aside from a couple of press release and the unit being for sale here (http://shopping.pchome.com.tw/dvdrwhd/detail.php?pid=DVH00044) there doesn't seem to be much info.

Are all the users too busy watching their recordings :rolleyes:
Perhaps there's Taiwanese message boards for discussion similar to this one? It would make sense since I suspect most Taiwanese aren't nearly as comfortable w/English as they are w/Chinese.

Justin Thyme

01-03-2006, 01:11 AM

So where are all the Taiwanese users? Its been almost a month since TGC launched in Taiwan and aside from a couple of press release and the unit being for sale here (http://shopping.pchome.com.tw/dvdrwhd/detail.php?pid=DVH00044) there doesn't seem to be much info.

Are all the users too busy watching their recordings :rolleyes:Earlier in this thread there was one article that mentioned a very modest sales goal for the next year. Something like 60K units?

Taiwan is cool, but the significant move is the mainland- both sales and manufacturing of extremely low cost Tivos.

ccwf

01-03-2006, 03:22 AM

So where are all the Taiwanese users? Its been almost a month since TGC launched in Taiwan and aside from a couple of press release and the unit being for sale here (http://shopping.pchome.com.tw/dvdrwhd/detail.php?pid=DVH00044) there doesn't seem to be much info.

Are all the users too busy watching their recordings :rolleyes: I didn't see a single TiVo ad on Taiwanese TV or in newspapers.
I was actually surprised to see a big billboard advertising a DVR along the highway leaving Chiang Kai-Shek International Airport in Taipei, but it wasn't for a TiVo DVR.
As I know firsthand from running CJKDramas.com, although they read English boards, yes, it's pretty hard to get Chinese users to post.

cwerdna

01-03-2006, 04:32 AM

60K units in Taiwan for a year doesn't sound that horrible. According to http://investor.tivo.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=180812 for the latest quarter:
"TiVo-Owned gross subscription additions were 92,000 for the quarter, compared to 119,000 in the third quarter of last year. TiVo-Owned net subscription additions were 55,000 compared to 103,000 in the third quarter of last year. DIRECTV net subscription additions were 379,000 for the quarter, compared to 316,000 in the third quarter of last year."

US population is 295 million vs. Taiwan's 22.8 million.

Javalinataipei@y

06-26-2006, 01:57 AM

ZeoTiVo

06-26-2006, 06:28 AM

Dear Tivo forumers,

I am new to the Tivo forum and I am originally from Taiwan and have been studying in US for a long time. I am about to finish my Ph.D. degree and going back to Taiwan. I just wonder if the US Tivo unit can be used in Taiwan. If that's possible then it is cheaper to get the unit here because right now Tivo is running a specially for the Series 2 80hrs Tivo for free after rebates. So I wonder if anyone know whether the US Tivo unit will work in Taiwan or not. Thanks for you reply in advance!

Welcome to the Forum :)

No idea on using a US TiVo in Taiwan as we have little info on the Taiwan uints so far. One thing I can say is that the Taiwan unit is a definite update of the standard series 2 unit you are looking at getting for free (after rebate) . The Taiwan unit we saw in posts is more like the Dual tuner unit TiVo has just released but I think the Taiwan version is just one tuner (again no one has really posted on having looked at a Taiwan version first hand)

If it was me I would compare the price of a Taiwan unit to the newer Dual Tuner or think of spending the extra money to get the Taiwan version with its built in ethernet and perhaps more powerful CPU and larger memory footprint.