osX86 and Tivo

[errandwolfe]

Well, just got the latest release of 10.4.3 on my IDK, still can not even get the Tivo Desktop service to start. I don't know what Tivo's big problem is with supporting Macintosh folk. We've had to run extra software just to get the BASE HMO functions working (i.e. sharing mp3's and photos). Now with the release of the Intel based Macs just over a month away, I am happy to say (dripping sarcasm) that even those base features no longer work.

Tivo has given us no timetable as to when the EXISTING user base will get on to par with Windows, much less folks who buy the new x86 based macs. Trust me, if there were ANY other DVR product out there capable of MP3 streaming, I would have dumped Tivo months ago!

Please anyone who has any ideas on how else I could stream mp3's to my Tivo without Tivo Desktop working, feel free to message or e-mail me. To any Tivo programmers reading this, I don't care if it is a first release alpha version, if you have any Tivo Desktop software that will run under OSX86 I would be MORE then happy to test for you. Oh and please no smart a*s comments about "just sign up to be a beta tester". I already have, and there is not even an option to indicate I have an Intel based Mac.

[Gunnyman]

how about galleon?
Install the linux port on Darwin.

[Aflat]

TivoPony stated in some thread that sometime in the next 6 months or so they should have an OSX version out.

[gonzotek]

TivoPony stated in some thread that sometime in the next 6 months or so they should have an OSX version out.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3485849&&#post3485849
Regarding the Macintosh...

Yes, we intend to support it, but not in the February release. Macintosh support for the new features announced today is planned for mid-2006.

Pony

(edited for clarity)
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3487497&&#post3487497
Hmmm...I see that I have to be very careful with each and every word that I choose to type.

I did not intend for my statement to exclude playback on the Macintosh. My understanding is that that should be supported as well, in the same timeframe (mid-2006).

Pony

In other words, a representative of the company has given a time-frame of mid-2006 for the return of Mac/Win feature parity.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

The OP is asking about the x86 build of Mac OS X, which isn't final (why they'd expect this to work at this point I'm not sure, given that HMO is implemented as a Java application calling a JNI library, something that isn't expected to work on an x86-based developer Mac, even with Rosetta, without the JNI pieces being recompiled.)

If the OS isn't even released, let alone supported, yet (this is an NDA'd beta, and I'm guessing we're not looking at a developer with a legit copy of the OS here...) why would you expect TiVoDesktop to be?

[Alexbt]

I would think that something built in Java would be more likely to work in OS X x86.

Shall I assume you know about the installer problems and did the Force Quit trick? It worked fine for me in the PPC 10.4.3.

EDIT: Totally miswrote the version of OS X I use. Fixed now. Silly me.

[bootedbear]

I would think that something built in Java would be more likely to work in OS X x86.


Why? If it were pure Java, it'd work the same regardless of OS. However, the JNI parts are OS-specific (that's the whole point of JNI) and need to be re-compiled (as DW pointed out) for the target OS.

[Alexbt]

Then it should simply be a matter of when it was compiled and what it was compiled with. From what Apple is telling (and showing us), building Universal Binaries to run on EITHER processor flavor of OS X is as simple as checking off a box in the xCode development system.

Of course, I could be way off base. I'm by no means a programmer.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Then it should simply be a matter of when it was compiled and what it was compiled with. From what Apple is telling (and showing us), building Universal Binaries to run on EITHER processor flavor of OS X is as simple as checking off a box in the xCode development system.

Of course, I could be way off base. I'm by no means a programmer.

There were (publically) documented limitations in the Rosetta emulator that prevented native code that interacted with Java, or Java that interacted with native code (as TiVoDesktop is) from working under the emulator, so the existing version would not work on the Intel Developer Kit.

"Universal Binaries" depend on using packages (which aren't much more than well-structured folders with some meta-data about the binaries, related resources like images, and the binaries themselves, one per processor flavor.) This is a holdover from the NeXT days. JNI libraries (.jnilib extension) aren't packages, so it's not clear to me how "fat" versions of those will be packaged.

You're right in that it should be relatively simple for TiVo to build an x86 version of the JNI library, assuming they don't have any endianness assumptions in their code. Even so, we're still talking about an unreleased operating system here.

[rog]

Well, just got the latest release of 10.4.3 on my IDK, still can not even get the Tivo Desktop service to start. I don't know what Tivo's big problem is with supporting Macintosh folk...

To any Tivo programmers reading this, I don't care if it is a first release alpha version, if you have any Tivo Desktop software that will run under OSX86 I would be MORE then happy to test for you. Oh and please no smart a*s comments about "just sign up to be a beta tester". I already have, and there is not even an option to indicate I have an Intel based Mac.

If the OS isn't even released, let alone supported, yet (this is an NDA'd beta, and I'm guessing we're not looking at a developer with a legit copy of the OS here...) why would you expect TiVoDesktop to be?

Yes, what a tasteless post!

errandwolfe, unless I am seriously misunderstanding your situation, you are either breaking an NDA, or breaking the law by using a pirated copy of OSX86. On top of that, you're demanding support from a third party (TiVo) for software on an OS that isn't even out yet? Jeez... :rolleyes:

I want Mac support too, but come on!

[errandwolfe]

Yes, what a tasteless post!

errandwolfe, unless I am seriously misunderstanding your situation, you are either breaking an NDA, or breaking the law by using a pirated copy of OSX86. On top of that, you're demanding support from a third party (TiVo) for software on an OS that isn't even out yet? Jeez... :rolleyes:

I want Mac support too, but come on!

How does indicating a broken application violate my NDA? I am not revealing any confidential information or leaking any part of the code. I am not DEMANDING anything. I was merely expressing my frustration at the level of support Tivo has given to Mac users. If Tivo Desktop worked with 10.4 on PPC you are certainly right I would have no reason to complain. All I was doing was bringing up the point that all the discussion regarding Macs has been regarding the PPC version of Tiger. With the true Intel Macs due out in just under two months (according to the rumor mill, I do not have any confirmation from Apple on that), I simply wanted to make people aware that the traditional hacks people have used to get Tivo Desktop running on PPC do not work on the IDK. Tivo Desktop is in fact the ONLY application I have found that doesn't run on the IDK. The Rosetta emulation works fantasticly, even PPC games run without a problem.

[macmatt]

That OS isn't even released yet, and (officially, according Apple) it won't be until like June.

Complaining that software isn't yet released for an OS that isn't released is ridiculous.

Absurd, really.

- Matt

[Flyinace2000]

How does indicating a broken application violate my NDA? I am not revealing any confidential information or leaking any part of the code. I am not DEMANDING anything. I was merely expressing my frustration at the level of support Tivo has given to Mac users. If Tivo Desktop worked with 10.4 on PPC you are certainly right I would have no reason to complain. All I was doing was bringing up the point that all the discussion regarding Macs has been regarding the PPC version of Tiger. With the true Intel Macs due out in just under two months (according to the rumor mill, I do not have any confirmation from Apple on that), I simply wanted to make people aware that the traditional hacks people have used to get Tivo Desktop running on PPC do not work on the IDK. Tivo Desktop is in fact the ONLY application I have found that doesn't run on the IDK. The Rosetta emulation works fantasticly, even PPC games run without a problem.

I hear you! I am slowly migrating my computers to OSX. So far i have a powerbookG4 and as soon as my PC craps out (going on 4 years) i will replace it with an iMac/PowerMac. TiVo does need to get on the ball with intergrating with mac.

DId you hear the report about Apple releasing a Front Row 2.0 with DVR functionality? If this is the case perhaps it could be some joint venture with TiVo and apple? Either way its going to be a good year for Apple hardware and software!

[ZeoTiVo]

I hear you! I am slowly migrating my computers to OSX. So far i have a powerbookG4 and as soon as my PC craps out (going on 4 years) i will replace it with an iMac/PowerMac. TiVo does need to get on the ball with intergrating with mac.

DId you hear the report about Apple releasing a Front Row 2.0 with DVR functionality? If this is the case perhaps it could be some joint venture with TiVo and apple? Either way its going to be a good year for Apple hardware and software!

TiVo tried to work a deal with Apple and the rumor is it fell apart and obviously now it is most likely due to the fact that Apple sees TiVo as a competitor. There will be no Apple and TiVo working together. I speculate that TiVo had bad mac developers that boxed themselves into a corner code wise by not being more careful with standards and that Apple was never going to really work with TiVo on how to do DRM and so forth.

TiVo and its end users paid the price for this but it seems that TiVo has managed to find some new mac developers and are steadily working on a new desktop for Macs. I would imagine they are quite busy just trying to clean up the mess at this point without a lot of effort aimed at IDK though hopefully they are getting back to standards so they stay more compliant with future Apple OSes.

[errandwolfe]

DId you hear the report about Apple releasing a Front Row 2.0 with DVR functionality? If this is the case perhaps it could be some joint venture with TiVo and apple? Either way its going to be a good year for Apple hardware and software!

If you are referring to the MacMini "kaildeoscope" unit, I most definitly heard about it. If it is going to be around the same price point as existing MacMini's (and there is actually a decent chance it might be cheaper) I am all set to say good bye to my Tivo.

[errandwolfe]

TiVo tried to work a deal with Apple and the rumor is it fell apart and obviously now it is most likely due to the fact that Apple sees TiVo as a competitor. There will be no Apple and TiVo working together. I speculate that TiVo had bad mac developers that boxed themselves into a corner code wise by not being more careful with standards and that Apple was never going to really work with TiVo on how to do DRM and so forth.

TiVo and its end users paid the price for this but it seems that TiVo has managed to find some new mac developers and are steadily working on a new desktop for Macs. I would imagine they are quite busy just trying to clean up the mess at this point without a lot of effort aimed at IDK though hopefully they are getting back to standards so they stay more compliant with future Apple OSes.

Well here we are...10.4.4 for Intel is final. Just did all the paperwork to send back my IDK and get me a nice new x86 iMac. I have been talking to people inside Appple and they say apps like Tivo Desktop which use JNI files wil STILL not work until Tivo actually compliles a new release. As of my last test runs on my IDK, at of every app I use, whether it be PPC or Universal Binary, the ONLY app which did not run was Tivo Desktop.

Since Tivo the company still refuses to put a solid release date on the new Mac version, I will soon be cancelling my subscription and moving to Elegato or possibly ReplayTV.

The things I loved most about my Tivo when I first got was not just simply recording TV, I can get a DVR from my cable company that does the same thing, can record two channels at a time, and is HALF the monthly cost of Tivo. It was the fact I could stream my MP3's to my TV/Home Stereo, EXTREMELY easily. I wasn't even that concerned about pulling the video off. It was the MP3 playback that made me plunk down $200 and pay double the cost each month.

Well ever since I went on the IDK several months ago, that feature has gone. Despite a few posts here and there from someone I think was named TivoPony, there has been ZERO confirmation or press release from Tivo with a SOLID time frame for release of a new Mac client. For god's sake in the beta tester section, you can't even specify if you have an Intel Mac.

Lets face facts, the people who are zipping out now to buy these Intel Macs are early adopters. They are also the ones most likely to have advanced technology like Tivo in their homes. I can tell you right now, as people start getting these new boxes and finding out that the current 10.4 work-arounds can't be used to get Tivo Desktop to work, they are going to be PISSED.

We all bought our Tivo's with the CLEAR understanding that they would work with our Macs. It has been months now since 10.4 came out, and despite some community inspired hacks, Tivo STILL does not run native with 10.4, much less Intel 10.4.

Who knows, maybe as Intel Macs continue to pour out, this could give ReplayTV the boost they need to get back into the game and go toe to toe with Tivo. Oh and just as a final footnote...I have a friend whose company got an IDK. He was able to take his ReplayTV in to work, and he had zero problems getting the desktop software to run on OS X Intel.

[gonzotek]

Despite a few posts here and there from someone I think was named TivoPony, there has been ZERO confirmation or press release from Tivo with a SOLID time frame for release of a new Mac client.http://blog.tivo.com/tivo_blog/2005/11/tivo_announces_.htmlUpdate: In response to a number of posts that we are receiving, I just wanted to let you all know that Mac support for the TiVoToGo feature and iPod is scheduled for mid 2006! Cheers to that, indeed!I don't have a copy but I believe it was also announced in the TiVo newsletter.

[errandwolfe]

http://blog.tivo.com/tivo_blog/2005/11/tivo_announces_.htmlI don't have a copy but I believe it was also announced in the TiVo newsletter.

A few points:
1. Is a blog really an official announcement of a product? I know when I still call customer service, I am told that they currently have no information when Tivo Desktop for 10.4 will be available. When I ask if they know if it will be universal binary I get the telephone equivalent of a blank stare.

2. When I bought my Tivo it was CLEARLY labeled as working with Macintosh. At no point was I ever notified by Tivo that that support would cease.

3. Lets take this blog announcement as canon...This announcement was "made" over 6 months AFTER the release of 10.4!

4. Lets take the mid-'06 release date as canon...That is over a year since the release of 10.4. Whats going to happen when 10.5 comes out? Are we going to have to wait another year before Tivo will work with that OS?!

Bottom line, lets say Windows Vista came out tomorrow, how pissed off would the majority of Tivo users be if Tivo Desktop didn't work for another year! This is OBVIOUSLY just an uncaring company not wanting to give people what they paid for.

Leave the Intel Macs out of the equation for a minute. There has been software available from third parties to allow you to at least get partial functionality within a few weeks of 10.4 coming out. Tivo could have fairly easily incorporated some of this software as at least a stop-gap measure.

Anyone within the last year who purchased a Mac and isn't technologically savy enough to get one of the third party solutions working was SCREWED. I was just at CompUSA yesterday, and the Tivo boxes all still very clearly say they work with Macs.

Anyone interested in getting a class action lawsuit together? I am pretty sure that is considered false advertising.

[EwanG]

Bottom line, lets say Windows Vista came out tomorrow, how pissed off would the majority of Tivo users be if Tivo Desktop didn't work for another year!

Personally, I'd like to be able to run TivoDesktop from Linux so I wouldn't have to do the crazy stuff I do just to have a RAID array for my TivoToGo shows. But I'm not at all surprised that it isn't a TiVo priority.

Because the sad (to me) truth is that even among Windows users, there isn't that much use of TivoDesktop. I suspect that no more than 10% of TiVo's installed base has used TivoDesktop more than once, and if you figure out what percentage of that already small market is the Mac market...

Yes, I think it's a bad thing that TiVo has not done a better job of developing software that could easily be ported to different OS's and such. I think the success of getting Galleon running on Mac, Windows, and Linux shows the development path that TiVo should have used. However, I can also understand having to make trade-offs.

That said, have you looked at using Galleon on your Mac?

FWIW,
Ewan

[errandwolfe]

Personally, I'd like to be able to run TivoDesktop from Linux so I wouldn't have to do the crazy stuff I do just to have a RAID array for my TivoToGo shows. But I'm not at all surprised that it isn't a TiVo priority.

Because the sad (to me) truth is that even among Windows users, there isn't that much use of TivoDesktop. I suspect that no more than 10% of TiVo's installed base has used TivoDesktop more than once, and if you figure out what percentage of that already small market is the Mac market...

Yes, I think it's a bad thing that TiVo has not done a better job of developing software that could easily be ported to different OS's and such. I think the success of getting Galleon running on Mac, Windows, and Linux shows the development path that TiVo should have used. However, I can also understand having to make trade-offs.

That said, have you looked at using Galleon on your Mac?

FWIW,
Ewan
Finally! Someone who somewhat agrees with my position. If you bought a product with clear information that it would work on a given platform, it should be up to the company to either ensure their product works on the upgrades to the platform. Yes, yes, Tivo SAYS they will support 10.4 eventually, but I don't think a year is an acceptable timeframe. Obviously getting into to run on 10.4 (PPC version at least) is not a big deal as the third party software is out there to do it!

In response to your second portion about Galleon, it was a no go on my Developers Kit. There was a big problem with the Java implementation on 10.4.1 and 10.4.3. I am hoping this has been corrected now that 10.4.4 for Intel is gold. Unfortunately it seems those trading in their IDK's for the new iMacs are lower on the ship list then folks just buying a new Intel iMac.

I would love to hear from someone who has purchased one of the new iMacs and find out if they were at least able to get Galleon working.

[errandwolfe]

Personally, I'd like to be able to run TivoDesktop from Linux so I wouldn't have to do the crazy stuff I do just to have a RAID array for my TivoToGo shows. But I'm not at all surprised that it isn't a TiVo priority.

Because the sad (to me) truth is that even among Windows users, there isn't that much use of TivoDesktop. I suspect that no more than 10% of TiVo's installed base has used TivoDesktop more than once, and if you figure out what percentage of that already small market is the Mac market...

Yes, I think it's a bad thing that TiVo has not done a better job of developing software that could easily be ported to different OS's and such. I think the success of getting Galleon running on Mac, Windows, and Linux shows the development path that TiVo should have used. However, I can also understand having to make trade-offs.

That said, have you looked at using Galleon on your Mac?

FWIW,
Ewan
One other thing in regards to Tivo ToGo usage. It really surprises me if those numbers are correct. I am not even that interested in downloading the video from the Tivo. My main use was using the Tivo as a gateway to my home stereo to play my MP3's. That to me was the key feature that made Tivo stand out from paying half of the monthly cost and just getting the DVR from my cable company (they charge only $6.95 a month) and I would even be able to record two channels at once!

[marcush]

I feel your pain. However, this is and may always be part of the Mac user experience. It is something I accepted long ago and don't let bother me anymore. I'll user whatever workaround or hack is available. I user Tivo desktop on a Beige G3 running 10.3.9 that I setup as my media server. Not everyone has an extra pc or mac sitting around but that's what works for me. I also have Galleon up and running on it. Either one will stream mp3's to the Tivo for me. I can also extract video when I want. The only downside is having to take the video to a pc or my main G4 DA machine running virtual pc to run directshow dump to strip off the drm encoding. That is why I went the extra step to hack my SA S2 Tivo so that I can use Tivotool. Again, I understand most do not have the inclination or wherewithall to hack their Tivo or setup Galleon but you are a technical person. It would be easier for you than most to get things going. :up:

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If the OS isn't even released, let alone supported, yet (this is an NDA'd beta, and I'm guessing we're not looking at a developer with a legit copy of the OS here...) why would you expect TiVoDesktop to be?

Given that Intel-based Macs are already shipping, the Intel version of OS X must logically already be final and not NDA'ed.

[gonzotek]

Given that Intel-based Macs are already shipping, the Intel version of OS X must logically already be final and not NDA'ed.Date that quote was posted: 11-28-2005. Date of Steve Jobs' Keynote announcing the public availability of Intel-based Macs: 1-10-2006

[SullyND]

Given that Intel-based Macs are already shipping, the Intel version of OS X must logically already be final and not NDA'ed.

Given the post you quoted and replied to was posted on 11-29-2005 that may not be the case.