Battlestar Galactica "Pegasus" 9/23/2005 *SPOILERS*

[Cue-Ball]

Just to lighten up this discussion a bit....who would be interested in raping a metallic cylon in the first place? ;)

Cheryl

"It's MY sex box. And her name is Sony".

[ihatecable]

I think this is EXACTLY the point of the Pegasus's crew mentality towards rape. Remember, the Cylons are not some sentient alien race that the humans encountered. They were MADE by humans. They were toasters, vacuum cleaners, and most probably sex toys. They still think the Cylons are just tools that had their A.I. cross-wired.

Also, don't forget, the Pegasus crew did not have a personal-friend-turned-cylons like Sharon that they empathized with.They are either malfunctioning machines or sentient beings, that happen to be responsible for genocide of billions of innocent civilians in a sneak attach. When you take hope away from people (like having most of your friends and family dead) morality goes out the window real fast. If some sicko wants to have sex with a walking blow up doll that’s his call.

PS: I wouldn’t care if they slapped mother Teresa face on a robot to make it warm and fuzzy, it’s still a robot.

[ronsch]

On a lighter note, now that she's pregnant, shouldn't we refer to her as a crock-pot instead of a toaster?


Don't you mean a Toaster Oven? :D :D

[hefe]

Don't you mean a Toaster Oven? :D :D

Har-har-har-ar..... Good one.

A bun in the Toaster oven...

[CTLesq]

They are either malfunctioning machines or sentient beings, that happen to be responsible for genocide of billions of innocent civilians in a sneak attach. When you take hope away from people (like having most of your friends and family dead) morality goes out the window real fast. If some sicko wants to have sex with a walking blow up doll that’s his call.

PS: I wouldn’t care if they slapped mother Teresa face on a robot to make it warm and fuzzy, it’s still a robot.

But the reason they would rape a cylon is to induce trama to obtain information.

The human perpetrators know full well the impact that it would have on the cylon detainee.

I fail to see how it is defensible under any standard. Either from a human perspective or from a cylon perspective.

[blarg]

But the reason they would rape a cylon is to induce trama to obtain information.

The human perpetrators know full well the impact that it would have on the cylon detainee.

I fail to see how it is defensible under any standard. Either from a human perspective or from a cylon perspective.

well, they're not raping a human...they're raping a toaster...there's no law against forcing yourself on a mechanical device either in our universe or theirs. When sharon got shot, all the shooter got was 30 days in the brig for discharging a weapon without authorization...they look like people, but they're not. Apparently their plan is working because you're starting to feel bad for them.

I guess they really DO have a plan.

[hefe]

But the reason they would rape a cylon is to induce trama to obtain information.

Nah, that's just a justification for acting sub-human and pretending there is a greater good being served. If you believe there is information to be obtained through inducing trauma, it can be done without the "interregator" getting off on it. Literally.

[latrobe7]

I've been turning this over in my head for a while: Why is the "rape" so much worse than the way Starbuck interrogated Leoben? He was beaten pretty well. Holding someone’s head under water for a time, over and over, is a form of torture. If someone had busted into that room and attacked Starbuck, would anyone argue that is justified?

Is it because Starbuck is a woman, interrogating what looked like a man; and Boomer looks like a woman who was being interrogated by a man?

If they had decided to sexually abuse Leoben would that have been crossing the line ('cause that never happens in real life POW camps :rolleyes: )?

And why would that be crossing the line? Because it too traumatizing for the victim? :confused: Or because it would seem that rape is too sadistic? In other words torture is OK so long as the torturer doesn't get off on it too much?

[Kevdog]

But there is NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that they are not human.

Not to beat a very, very bruised horse, but there is. Humans are not at all affected by the fields surrounding Ragnar Station, while the same fields kill Cylons. And when humans have sex, their spines don't glow. So Spylons are very easily distinguishable from humans.

In any event, to your larger point, I think you're making some assumptions about the evolution of colonial law that may be a bit premature. It's quite possible that they haven't yet incorporated any concept of non-human "rights" into their legal system. And that could be where the show is heading. Consider this: despite the fact that the Colonials have had FTL capabilities for some time, there has never been a single reference to intelligent life that is not human. So in all of their travels across space they, apparently, never met another sentient species (that we know of). Why, then, would their legal code account for the possibility? And up til now, the Cylons were simply machines. The Spylons are, in relative terms, a very new development. I think it's a leap (especially under the circumstances) to suggest that the Colonials would automatically grant Spylons human status simply because they appear to be human, even at the molecular level.

This whole issue reminds me a bit of the ST:TNG and the evolution of Data's rights as a sentient being. He was initially treated as an object until his rights were established in court.

[latrobe7]

Not to beat a very, very bruised horse, but there is. Humans are not at all affected by the fields surrounding Ragnar Station, while the same fields kill Cylons. And when humans have sex, thier spines don't glow.

Don't forget the greater speed and strength; particularly Leoben and 6, and heightened endurance; remember how Boomer never gets tired?

[Anubys]

Nah, that's just a justification for acting sub-human and pretending there is a greater good being served. If you believe there is information to be obtained through inducing trauma, it can be done without the "interregator" getting off on it. Literally.

I could've said it better, but this answer will do... :p

seriously...totally agree...glad I didn't smeek!

[rworne]

But the reason they would rape a cylon is to induce trama to obtain information.

The human perpetrators know full well the impact that it would have on the cylon detainee.

I fail to see how it is defensible under any standard. Either from a human perspective or from a cylon perspective.

I think the Cylons have no problems with it. See, I remember that episode where Starbuck was on Caprica and found these farms...

Can you think of something worse than rape? That would be, wouldn't you think? The Cylons apparently had no problems with that at all.

One of the reasons during wartime you do not commit atrocities on the enemy is so that such treatment does not get meted out on your own population in return. (This is in general, I am not suggesting that the Boomer scene had anything to do with Caprica)

[Win Joy Jr]

well, they're not raping a human...they're raping a toaster...there's no law against forcing yourself on a mechanical device either in our universe or theirs. When sharon got shot, all the shooter got was 30 days in the brig for discharging a weapon without authorization...they look like people, but they're not. Apparently their plan is working because you're starting to feel bad for them.

I guess they really DO have a plan.

Let's think about any "laws" created regarding cylons. When those laws were written, it most likely defined cylons as the metallic "toasters" that they knew existed (remember, it was the centurion model they were most familiar with). The Cylons comprised of flesh and blood (and who knows what) may not meet the definition of "cylon". If they are not a metallic cylon, then the law would have to regard them as human. I do not think that any new laws have been passed by the Quorum of Twelve yet.

The point behind the topic is that a society is judged by how it treats its prisoners. Something to think about.

And, since there have not been any executions in the aftermath of the killing of civilians by the military, then one has to question if their society has capital punishment.

I am seeing the show as more of a commentary on our society, similar to the original Star Trek and continued on Deep Space Nine. Seeing DS9 in repeats I am impressed on how the messages it contained still are spot on more than a decade later.

Well done Mr. Moore! Well Done...

[ccooperev]

What crime?

If Boomer were human, it would be rape. If she were an animal it would be animal cruelty or something like that.

There is no law dealing with what is and is not legal treatment for human-looking Cylons.

No law means that it was not a crime.

Would you agree that Cylons are sentient beings? If by possessing the qualities of self awareness, intelligence, consciousness, desire, free will (e.g. Boomer's apparent behavior) would such beings be deserving of the expectation to not be harmed in such a fashion?

[Alvis]

Would you agree that Cylons are sentient beings? If by possessing the qualities of self awareness, intelligence, consciousness, desire, free will (e.g. Boomer's apparent behavior) would such beings be deserving of the expectation to not be harmed in such a fashion?

Many of you are forgetting that cylons committed genocide. Human race are in verge of extinction and humane treatment of cylon prisoners should be least of their worries.

edit: Even if Pegasus crew didn't rape 6, will cylons spare their lives because of it? NO!

[Amnesia]

If by possessing the qualities of self awareness, intelligence, consciousness, desire, free will (e.g. Boomer's apparent behavior) would such beings be deserving of the expectation to not be harmed in such a fashion?Whether or not they should deserve not to harmed is not really the issue.

I was arguing a point of law. If there is no law against something, then it's not illegal.

If there's no law against having sex with Cylons against their will, then it's not illegal...perhaps immoral, but that's a whole other discussion.

[IndyJones1023]

I think what many people are forgetting is that this is a TV show.

[Jeeters]

well, they're not raping a human...they're raping a toaster...there's no law against forcing yourself on a mechanical device either in our universe or theirs.So on-duty military personnel getting sexual gratification with toasters, as a *part* of their duty no less, is OK?

[Anubys]

So on-duty military personnel getting sexual gratification with toasters, as a *part* of their duty no less, is OK?

in their world, yes...it's ok...

as for the sentient being argument...again, in their world, they are not -- as of yet -- considered that...

you can clearly see the start of change in some minds, but for 99.9% of the population, they are not only toasters, but toasters that burned ( :D ) their entire population to the ground...

[CTLesq]

, they're not raping a human...they're raping a toaster

The type victim is irrelvant, it is the intent of the perpetrator to induce trama in the vicitm. That the victim was human or cylon or whatever, as I view it has nothing to do with why the act was being committed. It was done precisely because of the belief that it would have a catastrophic effect on the victim.

, ...there's no law against forcing yourself on a mechanical device either in our universe or theirs.

Does anyone really have a working knowledge of colonial law? Do we want to get into a debate of New York vs. California vs. Texas rape laws?

I don't think you can do that. I think you can view this from a moral/immoral act perspective.

, When sharon got shot, all the shooter got was 30 days in the brig for discharging a weapon without authorization...they look like people, but they're not. Apparently their plan is working because you're starting to feel bad for them.

I guess they really DO have a plan.

No. I view this as a science fiction show. I view the cylons as a metaphor for every problem/issue humanity has ever faced. Replace machine with race or sexual orientation or greed. That they are machines in this particular rendition of humanity grappling with its own shortcomings is meaningless to me.

Nah, that's just a justification for acting sub-human and pretending there is a greater good being served. If you believe there is information to be obtained through inducing trauma, it can be done without the "interregator" getting off on it. Literally.

I agree, nor was I defending the practice.

I think the Cylons have no problems with it. See, I remember that episode where Starbuck was on Caprica and found these farms...

Can you think of something worse than rape? That would be, wouldn't you think? The Cylons apparently had no problems with that at all.

One of the reasons during wartime you do not commit atrocities on the enemy is so that such treatment does not get meted out on your own population in return. (This is in general, I am not suggesting that the Boomer scene had anything to do with Caprica)

That the cylons had no problem with rape does not excuse humans from how they behave with regards to that kind of treatment.

Nor is there any evidence that the crew of the Pegasus had any knowledge of the events on Caprica.

***

The behavior of the Pegasus interrogator was incorrect and inexcusable.

[Tangent]

Many of you are forgetting that cylons committed genocide. Human race are in verge of extinction and humane treatment of cylon prisoners should be least of their worries.

Wow, that sounds like the worst kind of justification. Using the actions of a race to justify what we do to an individual is pretty weak. Ask the Japanese-American citizens we interned in WW2 if it was justified because the Japanese attacked up at Pearl Harbor. Germany under Hitler was on a mission of genocide, does that mean that since I'm of German decent I should be able to be raped/beaten/tortured and nobody should feel bad about it?

[GTO40]

CTLesq - I agree.

Condoning behavior on a " toaster " will only reinforce behavior which will seem justified later towards a human female prisoner.

Possibly the Pegasus will survive to lead a rescue mission for Starbuck's lover & survivors on Caprica.

[latrobe7]

The behavior of the Pegasus interrogator was incorrect and inexcusable.

OK, let me ask this (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3292401&&#post3292401) again since I either wasn't clear or allot of people have me on ignore.

Was Starbuck also out of line when she interrogated Leoben? If someone burst in, in his defense would you defend their actions? Was Starbuck’s motive and goal not the same as the interrogator from Pegasus?

The more I think about this, the less I am able to side with Chief or Helo. Yes, the interrogator from Pegasus was out of control; and the general sadism-as-sport attitude of the Pegasus crew we saw was disgusting, but I do not believe that because they had the "moral-high-ground" in their mind that Helo and Chief had carte blanche to stop the attack/interrogation any way they saw fit.

I think this has allot to do with the Galactica crew being familiar to us and therefore, "the good-guys".

[CTLesq]

OK, let me ask this (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3292401&&#post3292401) again since I either wasn't clear or allot of people have me on ignore.

Was Starbuck also out of line when she interrogated Leoben? If someone burst in, in his defense would you defend their actions? Was Starbuck’s motive and goal not the same as the interrogator from Pegasus?

I have to apologize, I was out of the country during the airing of the first season and am now watching it on DVD to catch up. If this is part of the second season I don't recall it. So I am not really qualified to comment one way or another.

The more I think about this, the less I am able to side with Chief or Helo. Yes, the interrogator from Pegasus was out of control; and the general sadism-as-sport attitude of the Pegasus crew we saw was disgusting, but I do not believe that because they had the "morale-high-ground" in their mind that Helo and Chief had carte blanche to stop the attack/interrogation any way they saw fit.

I think to the extent that people wish to draw a corallary between rape laws in the US and cylons not being human and therefore not being protected by the laws it would be reasonable to draw a comparison to the Geneva Convention and point out that the actions being peretrated by the Pegasus interogrator would violate the GC and the parties who signed the GC have an obligation as to how they treat their prisoners/security detainees which was being violated by the Pegasus interrogator.

Again, there are so many jumps you have to make to apply these laws/treaties to the situation at hand I don't know that you really can but we are talking about a sci-fi show.

I think this has allot to do with the Galactica crew being familiar to us and therefore, "the good-guys".

Possibly. I can see your point. I wish I had seen the other interrogation to be able to comment on it.

[Alvis]

Wow, that sounds like the worst kind of justification. Using the actions of a race to justify what we do to an individual is pretty weak. Ask the Japanese-American citizens we interned in WW2 if it was justified because the Japanese attacked up at Pearl Harbor. Germany under Hitler was on a mission of genocide, does that mean that since I'm of German decent I should be able to be raped/beaten/tortured and nobody should feel bad about it?

OK, why are there human model cylons on Pegasus, Galactica, and colonial fleet? They aren't innocent cylons who just want to get along with humans. Their mission is to kill, sabotage, and spy on the humans. If they have no intent to harm, they can easily come forward and maybe even become productive member of the fleet.

[hefe]

Was Starbuck also out of line when she interrogated Leoben? If someone burst in, in his defense would you defend their actions? Was Starbuck’s motive and goal not the same as the interrogator from Pegasus?.
I believe it was not.

Yes, they were both trying to get information, from that respect there is similarity. But it is my personal belief that you don't rape someone just because of the effect on the prisoner. Which doesn't mean I believe that other forms of torture are completely ok. It's hard to put yourself in such a hypothetical situation, but I can just tell you personally, that if I was in a position where I really believed that I had to cause harm for the greater good, I would take no joy in it. I certainly wouldn't choose a method that is as personal to me (the interrogator) as it is to the victim. Do they have any reason to believe that a Cylon will respond if inflicted with sexual violation? I think they just personally got off on it. Either from a sexual or power perspective, or both.

[Big_Daddy]

OK, let me ask this (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3292401&&#post3292401) again since I either wasn't clear or allot of people have me on ignore.

Was Starbuck also out of line when she interrogated Leoben? If someone burst in, in his defense would you defend their actions? Was Starbuck’s motive and goal not the same as the interrogator from Pegasus?

The more I think about this, the less I am able to side with Chief or Helo. Yes, the interrogator from Pegasus was out of control; and the general sadism-as-sport attitude of the Pegasus crew we saw was disgusting, but I do not believe that because they had the "moral-high-ground" in their mind that Helo and Chief had carte blanche to stop the attack/interrogation any way they saw fit.

I think this has allot to do with the Galactica crew being familiar to us and therefore, "the good-guys".

It's a good thought - one I hadn't considered. My views have changed - but mainly because of how the series has progressed. I look at Cylons differently now.

On the other hand, there is arguably a difference between violently threatening/abusing someone who is a threat to you (wasn't there an issue about a bomb on the fleet?) and someone who is no immediate threat but quietly being maintained in prison (BoomerMark2).

[oski87]

I think what many people are forgetting is that this is a TV show.


....said the man with 12,000 posts :D

Sorry, totally uncalled for.

[ahartman]

Why is everyone making the leap that they (he?) was going to rape Cylon Boomer to demoralize her so later he would be able to have a more productive interrogation?

I'm guessing this guy was just a power-tripping jackass - it was about power, not about information.

That this is entrenching so many, I think, provides exactly what the writers/producers want - us to be confused about the Cylons as individuals - are they thinking for themselves or is this all part of 'the plan'?

[hefe]

That this is entrenching so many, I think, provides exactly what the writers/producers want - us to be confused about the Cylons as individuals -
I think you are correct about that. Creating these moral dilemmas is part of what makes the show so thought provoking. They know they are setting up a moral conflict. That's the whole point.

[oski87]

OK, let me ask this (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3292401&&#post3292401) again since I either wasn't clear or allot of people have me on ignore.

Was Starbuck also out of line when she interrogated Leoben? If someone burst in, in his defense would you defend their actions? Was Starbuck’s motive and goal not the same as the interrogator from Pegasus?

The more I think about this, the less I am able to side with Chief or Helo. Yes, the interrogator from Pegasus was out of control; and the general sadism-as-sport attitude of the Pegasus crew we saw was disgusting, but I do not believe that because they had the "moral-high-ground" in their mind that Helo and Chief had carte blanche to stop the attack/interrogation any way they saw fit.

I think this has allot to do with the Galactica crew being familiar to us and therefore, "the good-guys".

Keep in mind that Starbuck was questioning/torturing a cylon that had just claimed to have planted a nuke aboard the fleet. An imminent threat like that trumps any moral concerns. Just ask Jack Bauer :up:

I dont think that the "is a cylon a sentient being?" arguement is central to the story. IMO the writers were just trying to show that the crew of the Pegasus is amoral. The way that the deck hands were talking about Sharon ("Hear you've got a cylon prisoner. I heard she's a HOTTIE!!") tells me that they arent debating amongst themselves her status as a sentient being and whether or not rules of war apply to a toaster-- they are just acting on their most base instincts without benefit of any sort of moral compass at all. I'd place a big bet that their behavior will turn bad (worse) toward the Galactica crew in part 2, and THAT will be the important part of the story.

[Royster]

Just to lighten up this discussion a bit....who would be interested in raping a metallic cylon in the first place? ;)l

By your command!

[IndyJones1023]

....said the man with 12,000 posts :D

Sorry, totally uncalled for.
Hey, I don't mind a little ribbing (for my pleasure), but my post count has nothing to do with understanding it's all a show. Most of my post count is in Happy Hour.

[CTLesq]

Why is everyone making the leap that they (he?) was going to rape Cylon Boomer to demoralize her so later he would be able to have a more productive interrogation?

Perhaps because he was the interogator from the Pegasus?

I don't see it as a leap so much as a logical conclusion that one reaches from moving from point A to point B.

[blarg]

Let's think about any "laws" created regarding cylons. When those laws were written, it most likely defined cylons as the metallic "toasters" that they knew existed (remember, it was the centurion model they were most familiar with). The Cylons comprised of flesh and blood (and who knows what) may not meet the definition of "cylon". If they are not a metallic cylon, then the law would have to regard them as human. I do not think that any new laws have been passed by the Quorum of Twelve yet.

The point behind the topic is that a society is judged by how it treats its prisoners. Something to think about.

And, since there have not been any executions in the aftermath of the killing of civilians by the military, then one has to question if their society has capital punishment.

I am seeing the show as more of a commentary on our society, similar to the original Star Trek and continued on Deep Space Nine. Seeing DS9 in repeats I am impressed on how the messages it contained still are spot on more than a decade later.

Well done Mr. Moore! Well Done...


well I think we just see this differently. You're buying into the Cylon "plan" which is probably making humans thing that Cylons are just as human as they are, where the truth is they're just a bunch of errant machinary. They're not people...that's all there is to it. They're artificially-generated things made to look like humans so that humans will get confused and not know what to do with them. If you create a thing that responds to pain....are you then obligated to treat it like anything more than what it is...a machine? Cylons are not human. If they were they'd be called "humans" not "Cylons". Cylons are cloned....or somehow copied. They have eachother's memories. When humans die, they're dead. When Cylons die, their memories and everything they are just get transferred to another body. Killing them is just doing them a favor. It gets them out of captivity, it tranfers all the informantion THEY have to a safe place, and it gives the captors NOTHING. Keeping one alive and doing whatever horrible things you can do to it may be the best way to fight back.

as for judging a society by how it treats its prisoners...I agree. However when an army captures an aircraft, or a new vehicle, or a weapon, it doesn't get placed under house arrest and fed 3 times a day, and allowed to do as it pleases. It gets disected, analized, pushed to the breaking point, and reverse-engineered.

[Anubys]

he had found a moral loophole...he found a female (or two) that he could rape without any consequence...I make no bones about it...he is a rapist...

except that in that universe, it is not rape because she's not human...

I've made the analogy to a slave owner raping a slave girl...it wasn't a rape then, either (for the most part)...

of course it's RAPE...in both cases...but if society agrees that the victim is not human, then it can happen...this is what makes this show so good!

[blarg]

he had found a moral loophole...he found a female (or two) that he could rape without any consequence...I make no bones about it...he is a rapist...

except that in that universe, it is not rape because she's not human...

I've made the analogy to a slave owner raping a slave girl...it wasn't a rape then, either (for the most part)...

of course it's RAPE...in both cases...but if society agrees that the victim is not human, then it can happen...this is what makes this show so good!

exactly, I'm not saying that he's a nice person and I'd want him as my college roommate, I'm just saying that in the BSG universe what he's doing is completely fine.

so....when Howard Stern nailed that sex doll on the radio....was that rape too? what if he slapped it? what if he cut it up and threw it in the dumpster afterwards? does LOOKING and FEELING human make you human?

[blarg]

So on-duty military personnel getting sexual gratification with toasters, as a *part* of their duty no less, is OK?

Don't ask, don't tell. :cool: (thank you Mr. Clinton)

[hefe]

If you create a thing that responds to pain....are you then obligated to treat it like anything more than what it is...a machine? Cylons are not human. If they were they'd be called "humans" not "Cylons". Cylons are cloned....or somehow copied. They have eachother's memories. When humans die, they're dead. When Cylons die, their memories and everything they are just get transferred to another body. Killing them is just doing them a favor. It gets them out of captivity, it tranfers all the informantion THEY have to a safe place, and it gives the captors NOTHING. Keeping one alive and doing whatever horrible things you can do to it may be the best way to fight back.


If the pain response is what is useful, then you can inflict pain in many ways. Rape is not as much about inflicting physical pain as it is emotional or psychological pain. (Or the rapist gets off on it) If you believe that they are fundamentally machines that just simply have a pain response, then rape should be ineffective. There would be no "mental state" to **** with. Therefore, we return to the conclusion that it is being done just because the rapists want to commit that act, not for any other benefit.

[blarg]

If the pain response is what is useful, then you can inflict pain in many ways. Rape is not as much about inflicting physical pain as it is emotional or psychological pain. (Or the rapist gets off on it) If you believe that they are fundamentally machines that just simply have a pain response, then rape should be ineffective. There would be no "mental state" to **** with. Therefore, we return to the conclusion that it is being done just because the rapists want to commit that act, not for any other benefit.

you are, of course, assuming that Cylons HAVE emotions and psychology to incfict pain on...its just a program designed to emulate responses that play on YOUR psychology. They could just be using your weaknesses against you...as I said I'm not in any way suggestions that the interrogator was a nice guy...I just don't think he's doing anything that is wrong within the framework of BSG...

and yes, we should all remember that his is just a T.V. show.

[PJO1966]

January seems like a very long way away right now...

;)

[blarg]

January seems like a very long way away right now...

;)


then go read the spoilers in my post a few pages back...plot lines for the next 5 episodes are in there.

[rworne]

*Sigh*

Come on people. As was mentioned earlier, this is just a show. Since all the atrocities on this program are ficticious, I view this as an academic exercise where I do not need to "care" about the subjects as I would have to in a real-life situation.

Yes, the images are disturbing at times - but when all is said and done the actors leave work for their homes happy, healthy and safe.

[oski87]

Hey, I don't mind a little ribbing (for my pleasure), but my post count has nothing to do with understanding it's all a show. Most of my post count is in Happy Hour.


Oh, sorry. I only rib people for my pleasure. I laugh at my own jokes a lot, too.

I totally agree with you, btw

[latrobe7]

What? Really? This is a TV show?! I thought it was a live-action documentary from the ancient past delivered via wormhole! :D

Seriously, how many times can we chime in about the soundtrack or how hot Boomer or Lee is? God forbid we have a discussion with meat on its bones. I kind of think that's what the writers were going for, something thought/discussion provoking.

So all you folks who feel the need to remind us that it's "just a show"; thanks for the reality check, but don't bother. Just move along or post your critique of the props and sets right below my morality questions. ;)

[IndyJones1023]

No thanks, I'll say what I want. The debates are just getting ridiculous over a fictional show, that's all.

[latrobe7]

And your opinion is more valid? :rolleyes:

Whatever. I'll post whatever I want, too. So there.

[IndyJones1023]

Mine is no more valid. Just reminding people to chill out. [hint, hint]

[Anubys]

how do we know that this is not a documentary diabolically beamed to us in order to condition us to respond favorably to Galactica when it shows up in orbit?

We need to entertain that possibility! ;)

[PJO1966]

They're "historical documents"

:D

[smak]

exactly, I'm not saying that he's a nice person and I'd want him as my college roommate, I'm just saying that in the BSG universe what he's doing is completely fine.



Actually, assaulting somebody who has done nothing but give the Galactica crew helpful information is not fine, potential rape or not.

It's horrible tactics.

-smak-

[Tangent]

OK, why are there human model cylons on Pegasus, Galactica, and colonial fleet? They aren't innocent cylons who just want to get along with humans. Their mission is to kill, sabotage, and spy on the humans. If they have no intent to harm, they can easily come forward and maybe even become productive member of the fleet.

The problem with the argument is assumption that because somebody is a member of any given race that they all have the exact same intentions. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Assuming they do as justification for torture is weak at best. Let's take my example of the Japanese interned in WW2. Were there Japanese spies in the US whose mission was to kill, sabotage, and to spy on the US? Certainly. Was that a valid reason for interning all people of Japanese heritage? Nope. If you were an American citizen in WW2 with Japanese heritage but people for some reason thought you were Chinese and were leaving you alone would you be eager to come forward and correct them?

[rich]

I'm wondering why the Interrogator didn't give Sharon more time to answer his question before using violent methods, especially since Adama told Cain that she was very useful.

"What is this big ship?"
"Well, um, I..."
(violent methods begin)

[rworne]

I'm wondering why the Interrogator didn't give Sharon more time to answer his question before using violent methods, especially since Adama told Cain that she was very useful.

"What is this big ship?"
"Well, um, I..."
(violent methods begin)

That's because it's a domination game. He really wasn't interested in the answers - he either already had them, or didn't expect her to know based upon what was gleaned from the Cylon on the Pegasus. If she knew, he knew she would not give up the answer easily - or any easy (or coerced) answer may be another lie - so he just went on to "show her who's boss".

I'll save the "Who's your daddy?" comments for another time.

[hefe]

you are, of course, assuming that Cylons HAVE emotions and psychology to incfict pain on...its just a program designed to emulate responses that play on YOUR psychology. They could just be using your weaknesses against you...as I said I'm not in any way suggestions that the interrogator was a nice guy...I just don't think he's doing anything that is wrong within the framework of BSG...

and yes, we should all remember that his is just a T.V. show.
Well of course it's a TV show, but it raises issues that can be discussed in terms of real life. Nothing wrong with that.

I think you're missing my point on the above, however. For the rape to be effective, and in any way remotely justifiable as an interrogation tool, (so to speak) you MUST assume that the emotional and psychological aspect is present. Otherwise, yes, you're just sticking a fork in a toaster, and there is no point to it other than playing with a sex doll programmed to act victimized when raped. And the glee with which the Pegasus crew acted out that fantasy is truly horrifying.

[latrobe7]

I'm wondering why the Interrogator didn't give Sharon more time to answer his question before using violent methods, especially since Adama told Cain that she was very useful.

"What is this big ship?"
"Well, um, I..."
(violent methods begin)

Yeah, I had that thought, too. That's what makes me think that he wanted to get off more than he wanted to get information. Assuming Baltar was right, and you can mess with Cylon psychology the same as human psychology; it would seem to me that it would be more effective to build up to that kind of violation rather than start with it.

[Stormspace]

I think that the bottom line is that cylons are not human and as such can be treated much differently than typical prisoners of war. This situation is one of survival and at this point in the humans existence desperate measures will be taken to extract information from the cylons that the humans have access to.

However (and I think this is exactly why the cylons created human models) given that there are human models certain forms of interrogation or torture should not be condoned as it would in general desensitize the crew and possibly cause some behavior issues in the future. Using physical voilence should be expected (Starbuck used it against Leoben), afterall these guys were responsible for the practical extinction of the human race and they are a unified force. It's not as if a segment of the cylons have come forward and stated what was done was wrong. Every human version we've seen has had this opportunity and they failed to apologize or say that they are or were not part of that massacre.

For us as viewers and to a lesser extent the crew of Galactica we know that despite any misgivings that a cylon may vocalize, they can have their actions dictated by an outside force or programming, thus making them all untrustworthy. Any leader that didn't see this would be considered an idiot. Adama sees it which is why boomer is kept in lock-up. You can't have someone running free on a ship if that person is not completely responsible for their actions.

So, for me what was done against prisoner 6 and almost boomer was unfortunate and a poor reflection upon the Pegasus crew, but it was hardly unexpected given the feelings that the cylons have unearthed in the survivors. Chief and Helo were wrong to use force in stopping the interrogator. They have anthromorphosized boomer because she looks human and has been programmed to act human, but in reality she is not. Through her programming she has manipulated everyone she has come in contact with for any length of time.

However what happened to kill the interrogator was an accident and neither of the two should have to pay with their lives. At this point human life is too precious to expend unless under the most dire of circumstances.

[hefe]

So, for me what was done against prisoner 6 and almost boomer was unfortunate and a poor reflection upon the Pegasus crew, but it was hardly unexpected given the feelings that the cylons have unearthed in the survivors.


I guess I am just totally hung up on this. I don't get it one bit. It would be very unexpected in my mind if the feeling that the Cylons unearthed in me was that I wanted to **** them. I can understand wanting retribution. I can understand wanting to destry them. I can't understand the desire to **** them.

[Stormspace]

I guess I am just totally hung up on this. I don't get it one bit. It would be very unexpected in my mind if the feeling that the Cylons unearthed in me was that I wanted to **** them. I can understand wanting retribution. I can understand wanting to destry them. I can't understand the desire to **** them.

Ok, so lets say that one just offed your entire support structure. Family, friends, everyone you know and they are unpentant. Now, someone with some influence over you asks you to question them, not kill them, or make them pay for what they did. Just ask them questions and keep them alive or functioning as the case may be.

I think most people would be a little unhinged in that situation which sorta explains the reaction of the Pegasus crew. To do something to get back at them in a personal way. Their level of grief must be overpowering given the conditions they are enduring and I'm surprised they can use enough restraint to not kill everyone of them on sight.

As for the interrogator I think he was just a sadistic bastard using his control over a prisoner as an excuse to get off. But given the background of the show what he did was no different than doing to the same thing to an inanimate object. One that is programmed to kill you if you do anything wrong.

What does surprise me is that the Admiral didn't object as the act against a female looking cylon might spill over into actions of the crew against real female people even if they were suspected of being a cylon..

[rich]

Come to think of it, Tigh has also been known to use violent interrogation tactics against the other Sharon.

"Why did you shoot Adama?"
"Well, um, I..."
(violent methods begin)

[LlamaLarry]

How many people were on board Pegasus or part of their support "fleet"? Until the Pegasus found Galactica they likely had to assume that they were the only humans left, right?

[Tangent]

I guess I am just totally hung up on this. I don't get it one bit. It would be very unexpected in my mind if the feeling that the Cylons unearthed in me was that I wanted to **** them. I can understand wanting retribution. I can understand wanting to destry them. I can't understand the desire to **** them.

Rape is a crime of power, not anything sexual. There's alot more hate involved in it than there is a desire to get off. The interrogator was doing to as a way to make clear his dominance over the victim.

[hefe]

Rape is a crime of power, not anything sexual. There's alot more hate involved in it than there is a desire to get off. The interrogator was doing to as a way to make clear his dominance over the victim.
I've heard people say that, but I don't believe it. Not completely. There are lots of ways to demonstrate power. Getting off on it is a major component. It is done to satisfy something in the person doing it. Power is certainly a component, maybe even the largest component, but there is something else at work.

[Bierboy]

Well, that's a little premature--we still have 11 or so episodes to go this season! :DI'm STILL so confused... :confused:

[CTLesq]

How many people were on board Pegasus or part of their support "fleet"? Until the Pegasus found Galactica they likely had to assume that they were the only humans left, right?

I think if you consider just how massive the human population was and how spread out it was - 12 colonies - the amount of space travel, minor settlements it would have been impossible to completely annihilate it in one fell swoop. That is not to say that a huge chunk of it could not have been taken out in a huge attack but there would be too many "loose ends" still kicking around IMO for humanity to get whacked in one fell swoop.

I think you also brought uo an excellent point regarding support fleet. I think it would be reasonable that there would have to be a cast of supporting ships for a battlestar similar to what we have for our current naval carriers.

I would be interested to get other people's thoughts on that.

[jfjellstad]

I think you also brought uo an excellent point regarding support fleet. I think it would be reasonable that there would have to be a cast of supporting ships for a battlestar similar to what we have for our current naval carriers.

I would be interested to get other people's thoughts on that.

When the mini came out, Ron Moore mentioned on his blog that battlestars were the nucleus of a battlegroup similar to the US navy, so there would be support ships (destroyers and other support ships). Only reason Galactica didn't have its support ships were because it was being retired (also reason why the ship doesn't have a full crew).

I think the reason we don't see support ships with the Pegasus was because they did a blind jump. If the jump was random, the carrier group (if the other ships were able to jump) probably was dispersed. It also means that Galactica might run into other military ships that survived the attack.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I'm STILL so confused... :confused:
Sci-Fi Channel divides its seasons into two parts. They air the first half during the summer, when the networks are in reruns, then go into reruns in the fall, when the networks are in first-run, then air the second half of the season starting around January.

They used to always call the last show of the summer half the "Summer Finale," and in fact that's what they called this year's batch on their web site. But some of their on-air ads called it a "season finale," which made an already confusing situation even more confusing.

But right now, they are halfway through the second season of Galactica, and the rest of the second season will air beginning in January.

[blarg]

*Sigh*

Come on people. As was mentioned earlier, this is just a show. Since all the atrocities on this program are ficticious, I view this as an academic exercise where I do not need to "care" about the subjects as I would have to in a real-life situation.

Yes, the images are disturbing at times - but when all is said and done the actors leave work for their homes happy, healthy and safe.


there should be a disclaimer in the credits -

No actual Cylons were harmed in the filming of this episode. :D

[blarg]

Actually, assaulting somebody who has done nothing but give the Galactica crew helpful information is not fine, potential rape or not.

It's horrible tactics.

-smak-

a Cylon is a machine...no different than a screwdriver. If you use it to drive screws...its helpful, and if one day you get bored and decide to take a blowtorch to it just to see how cool it would look glowing red....you wouldn't feel bad about "mistreating it" would you?

[blarg]

Well of course it's a TV show, but it raises issues that can be discussed in terms of real life. Nothing wrong with that.

I think you're missing my point on the above, however. For the rape to be effective, and in any way remotely justifiable as an interrogation tool, (so to speak) you MUST assume that the emotional and psychological aspect is present. Otherwise, yes, you're just sticking a fork in a toaster, and there is no point to it other than playing with a sex doll programmed to act victimized when raped. And the glee with which the Pegasus crew acted out that fantasy is truly horrifying.


I don't think we really have anything approaching this in "real life". We don't have evil robots bent on exterminating our race, while at the same time trying to mate with us to make babies. We aren't likely to come across this kind of situation in the near future...the closest we get to this in real life is sex with programable toasters...and although I'm sure there are people out there that enjoy that sort of thing, I really doubt that said toaster would have any information worth extracting. Also, inanimate objects cannot be raped. It can be argued that sex with furniture, machinery, and tableware is deviant behavior...and I never said that what's going on is "normal"...but it does not carry moral implications...unless, of course you're having sex with someone else's furniture. :)

I'm surprised more people aren't bothered by the fact that the Admiral shot her first officer for disobeying an order (apparently he wasn't joking), and this person now runs the fleet.

war is hell.

[TheSlyBear]

They're "historical documents"


:) :)

[hefe]

I don't think we really have anything approaching this in "real life".
Well then, I have nothing to discuss with you about it, as philosophical or hypothetical discussions apparently carry no value with you. I'll just end by saying you still don't seem to get my point. Oh well.

[Narkul]

If Sharon is pregnant by Helo then it only makes sense that she is far more than just a robot. She's got to be something VERY close to human to be able to conceive a child with a human. This pregnancy and the danger to a POSSIBLE human child alone should have been enough to qualify this as a rape and not just a deviant act.

It seems to me that the Sharon model is taking the next cylon evolutionary step by exhibiting free will and procreating. The show says "they evolved", you know!

Perhaps a true emotional bond is required for a spylon to conceive. Sorry if this has all been discussed before.

[Alvis]

If Sharon is pregnant by Helo then it only makes sense that she is far more than just a robot. She's got to be something VERY close to human to be able to conceive a child with a human. This pregnancy and the danger to a POSSIBLE human child alone should have been enough to qualify this as a rape and not just a deviant act.

I don't remember there being any evidence about Sharon's pregnancy other than her word.

[Tangent]

I don't remember there being any evidence about Sharon's pregnancy other than her word.

Remember the episode where she was bleeding and was taken to sickbay so they could save her baby? I'm pretty sure that the doc would have noticed at that time if she wasn't really preggers...

[Win Joy Jr]

I don't remember there being any evidence about Sharon's pregnancy other than her word.

The doc mentioned the baby during the reporter episode...

On Edit: Damn, my first Smeek...

[Rob Helmerichs]

The doc mentioned the baby during the reporter episode...

On Edit: Damn, my first Smeek...
It's not a Smeek if it's a simultaneous posting...you have to actively not read it for it to count.

[blarg]

so.....January, huh?

*twiddles thumbs*

*looks at clock*

is it January yet?

[CTLesq]

so.....January, huh?

*twiddles thumbs*

*looks at clock*

is it January yet?

Don't we both wish it was!

[5thcrewman]

how do we know that this is not a documentary diabolically beamed to us in order to condition us to respond favorably to Galactica when it shows up in orbit?

We need to entertain that possibility! ;)
What is?
Have you been chip-checked lately?
You keep writing these long threads for a show that doesn't exist! :p
-I mean my TiVo doesn't see any new episodes of this 'alleged' show!

[blarg]

What is?
Have you been chip-checked lately?
You keep writing these long threads for a show that doesn't exist! :p
-I mean my TiVo doesn't see any new episodes of this 'alleged' show!

you mean like in BSG: 1984?

[IndyJones1023]

You mean, Galactica 1980?

[JPinAZ]

One question I haven't see raised (maybe someone already asked it, but this is a long thread) is how the Pegasus crew knew that Gina was a cylon? Wasn't the fact of human looking cylons a closely guarded secret that was initially discovered after the attack on Caprica?

[blarg]

One question I haven't see raised (maybe someone already asked it, but this is a long thread) is how the Pegasus crew knew that Gina was a cylon? Wasn't the fact of human looking cylons a closely guarded secret that was initially discovered after the attack on Caprica?

it was actually cut because the episode ran long.



she somehow infiltrated the crew right before the blind jump, and ended up causing a confrontation with the Cylons that lead to the death of 800 crew members on the Pegasus...which is one of the reason noone on the ship has a problem treating her the way they do.


it may have been pushed back to part 2

[ihatecable]

It seems to me that the Sharon model is taking the next cylon evolutionary step by exhibiting free will and procreating. The show says "they evolved", you know!Six: "That model was always prone to problems" or something to that effect

[ronsch]

Can you imagine what the post count will be on this thread by January! :eek:

[Anubys]

a Cylon is a machine...no different than a screwdriver. If you use it to drive screws...its helpful, and if one day you get bored and decide to take a blowtorch to it just to see how cool it would look glowing red....you wouldn't feel bad about "mistreating it" would you?

anyone else perturbed by the fact that -- of all the tools to use as an example -- you elected to use "screwdriver"?

;) :D

[aaronw]

That might have been a subtle snubbing. He introduced himself as Captain Taylor, Starbuck replied "Kyra Thrace", and Cpt Taylor restated "Captain Taylor". By repeating his military rank he is pointing out that Starbuck omitted hers, i.e. wasn't following military formalities.

Hmmm.. I guess at first thought they just cut it strangely, and he had just finished introducing himself to someone else, but yours works better, obviously after we learned more about how that crew operates.

[aemornion1]

HI i am new
I think that starbuck will jump in to the cylon fleet and while getting "pretty pictures" video tape the raptor with apollo getting attacked and how stupid the pegases piolet is. she will then get spotted by the cylons jump back to galactica. The cylons will go into the fleet where adama and caine are about to go at it. They will put aside there differences Ice the cylons. But there will be an explosion and caine will die. oh no what will we do with out her. oh and the six2 baltar and all those other people will escape back to galactica.

Also my idea on what the big scary ship is that it is either a colony ship or a giant weapon that will be used to colonise or destroy earth.

[blarg]

HI i am new
I think that starbuck will jump in to the cylon fleet and while getting "pretty pictures" video tape the raptor with apollo getting attacked and how stupid the pegases piolet is. she will then get spotted by the cylons jump back to galactica. The cylons will go into the fleet where adama and caine are about to go at it. They will put aside there differences Ice the cylons. But there will be an explosion and caine will die. oh no what will we do with out her. oh and the six2 baltar and all those other people will escape back to galactica.

Also my idea on what the big scary ship is that it is either a colony ship or a giant weapon that will be used to colonise or destroy earth.

good idea, but totally wrong. (see spoilers posted above)

[blarg]

anyone else perturbed by the fact that -- of all the tools to use as an example -- you elected to use "screwdriver"?

;) :D

;)

[kctipton]

What was the "Special Message" that the Sci Fi Channel ran after that Pegasus episode? My recording cut off before hearing it.

[5thcrewman]

What was the "Special Message" that the Sci Fi Channel ran after that Pegasus episode? My recording cut off before hearing it.

Do Not Try This At Home...

[Anubys]

Do Not Try This At Home...

You are a sick man.

I wish you could post more! ;) :D

[kctipton]

That wasn't helpful. Really, what was the message?

[BiscuitSlayer]

wow

[latrobe7]

That wasn't helpful. Really, what was the message?

You didn't miss anything. IIRC it was a promo for the Sci-Fi Friday "season" premeires three months away. I remember being upset that it seemed to cut into the time where they would show a tease for BSG.

[Warren]

anyone else perturbed by the fact that -- of all the tools to use as an example -- you elected to use "screwdriver"?

;) :D


Would you prefer he used the term "Hammer" or how about a "Nail" or I can't think of more

[Warren]

thought i would bump this so people could re read this if the wanted before the next show

[PJO1966]

I plan on rewatching the episode before the premiere.

I'm ready. Is it January yet?

:D

[Anubys]

I plan on rewatching the episode before the premiere.

I'm ready. Is it January yet?

:D

argh...I have friends staying for the holiday and beyond...sci-fi friday doesn't start for me until after January 9th :(

[latrobe7]

I'm ready. Is it January yet?

:D
Almost there! Sci-Fi rebroadcast the a bunch of episodes the other day and my TiVo recorded them, of course. It was a nice surprise to find on my now playing list. I had almost forgotten about it, but it's my favorite show on TV right now (er - in two weeks).

[PJO1966]

Almost there! Sci-Fi rebroadcast the a bunch of episodes the other day and my TiVo recorded them, of course. It was a nice surprise to find on my now playing list. I had almost forgotten about it, but it's my favorite show on TV right now (er - in two weeks).


I only re-recorded this episode. The rest of this season is starting up on UHD. I'll be rewatching season 2 there.

[lord-dogbert]

My wife is glad that the season is starting up again, she says that I haven't been the same since the cliff hanger :-)

[NoThru22]

I would like someone to post in this thread when it comes on UHD so I can set it to record. I am not lazy, I will just forget to keep checking.

[PJO1966]

I would like someone to post in this thread when it comes on UHD so I can set it to record. I am not lazy, I will just forget to keep checking.


Go ahead and set it. Season 2 Part 1 starts the first week of January on UHD.

[bobino]

I didn't read the entire 12 pages of replies to this thread, so this may have already been covered. If so, let me know and I will keep reading...and reading...

Now that it's known that Cylons have fiber-optic links in their wrists, how hard can it be to detect them?

-Bobino

[NoThru22]

Go ahead and set it. Season 2 Part 1 starts the first week of January on UHD.
I was talking about the Pegasus episode. I wanted to watch it before part 2 but that's not going to happen. It won't be on for ten weeks. :(

[PJO1966]

I was talking about the Pegasus episode. I wanted to watch it before part 2 but that's not going to happen. It won't be on for ten weeks. :(


Ah... sorry.

[latrobe7]

I didn't read the entire 12 pages of replies to this thread, so this may have already been covered. If so, let me know and I will keep reading...and reading...

Now that it's known that Cylons have fiber-optic links in their wrists, how hard can it be to detect them?

-Bobino
Uuhh... Well. I guess the best answer is to go ahead and read :D

This was discussed - AT LENGTH - but no consensus was reached. IIRC, it basically came down two camps:

Those whose "suspension of disbelief" was ruined by the fiber-optic interface mentioned above; and those willing to accept it as a story device and maybe we'll get an explanation later.

EDIT: But I believe that discussion actually took place in the "Flight of the Phoenix" episode thread - the episode before "Pegasus"

Happy reading!

[Warren]

I didn't read the entire 12 pages of replies to this thread, so this may have already been covered. If so, let me know and I will keep reading...and reading...

Now that it's known that Cylons have fiber-optic links in their wrists, how hard can it be to detect them?

-Bobino

go play the communtary from scifi.com he talked about this.


if you still have the episode on your tivo here is the com.

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/209/bsg_ep209_FULL.mp3


tart playing each episode's file when the words "The Cylons Were Created By Man" appear on your TV screen. Beeps will indicate when to pause for commercial breaks.

[Warren]

Ah... sorry.

I know we should get the worlds smallest violin to play him a song.

[Warren]

I know this is a bit pre-mature but.......When dose season 3 start?

[Jonathan_S]

I know this is a bit pre-mature but.......When dose season 3 start?Presumable sometime in August.
But more importantly; the 2nd half of season 2 starts up on Friday (Jan 6th).

[Rob Helmerichs]

Presumable sometime in August.
More like June or July (which is when every season of Stargate and Atlantis has started)...

[Charon2]

I would like to know why the podcasts of the last two episodes aren't on the DVD. Unless they are hidden as an Easter Egg.

[hefe]

I would like to know why the podcasts of the last two episodes aren't on the DVD. Unless they are hidden as an Easter Egg.
I didn't realize that they were putting them on the DVD. That's cool.

I listened to them at the time via podcast, and I remember a few were skipped, and Moore had just mentioned that they were busy or on vacation or a shooting hiatus or some mundane explanation. So they basically did them as they were convenient and there were no other time conflicts. I suppose they never went back to do the ones they missed.

[Charon2]

I didn't realize that they were putting them on the DVD. That's cool.

I listened to them at the time via podcast, and I remember a few were skipped, and Moore had just mentioned that they were busy or on vacation or a shooting hiatus or some mundane explanation. So they basically did them as they were convenient and there were no other time conflicts. I suppose they never went back to do the ones they missed.

Right. They missed the podcast for Fragged, S2E3, but the rest had podcasts, and the DVDs include all of them except the last two episodes which you can get from the website, but odd that they didn't include them on the DVD since they have been there since those two aired.

[blarg]

Now that it's known that Cylons have fiber-optic links in their wrists, how hard can it be to detect them?


well...like someone said, this HAS been discussed to death, but the real answer is that there IS really no answer. Its never been explained in the show. All we know is that the Cylons "LOOK" human to testing equipment, but ther spines glow (sometimes) they are able to communicate with other cylons, and can stick fiber into their arm, and get a signal.

so....either they're somehow able to mask the parts that aren't "human", or you just have to get over yourself and remember this is just a TV show.

personally I don't see how anyone can say that the cylons are "undetectable" and 100% human. this may be based simply on the fact that cylons human HAVEN'T been detected, not that anyone has tried and failed. Remember that until well into season 1 most of the BSG world had no idea that there WERE human cylons, so the statement that they're indistinguishable from humans may be based on the fact that they have managed to hide the special bits well nough to have avoided detection thus far. The only person that's really TRIED to detect them was Baltar...and we never really get a clear indication of 1) whether he was actually able to do it 2) whether he was NOT able to do it, and merely worked that into his psychosis by thinking he's protecting cylons 3) whether this was an easy thing or a difficult thing (he does take a lot of time to develop it, but that could be just because he's crazy, stalling, or whatever)....

so at this point, we really don't know. it may be eventually explained. it may not leaving many dorky people like ourselves to spend many hours trying to explain plot holes in a TV show rather than just saying "hey, its a plot hole...we don't HAVE to justify it for the writers if they can't be bothered to do it themselves. They get paid to do this...we don't."

[Crrink]

I was talking about the Pegasus episode. I wanted to watch it before part 2 but that's not going to happen. It won't be on for ten weeks. :(
My guide says SciFi is playing it on Jan 5th at 5pm, to be followed by the special that's available on iTunes.

[Peter000]

Right. They missed the podcast for Fragged, S2E3, but the rest had podcasts, and the DVDs include all of them except the last two episodes which you can get from the website, but odd that they didn't include them on the DVD since they have been there since those two aired.Well, the DVD might well have been in production before those episodes aired, but were "in the can." So they might not have had time to get the commentary on those episodes on the set. I'm waiting for the complete season 2 set before I buy anything.