Macrovision BS?

[PissedMonkey]

Yesterday, for the first time, I got some crappy notification about forced deletions of shows on my TiVo. Search google for TiVo Macrovision for an idea of what I'm talking about.

Am I the only one that is completely outraged by this? I've been a faithful TiVo supporter and owner (both of their product and stock) for years, but this acquiescence seriously causes me to loose faith and respect for TiVo.

What's to stop a channel from saying that TiVo is not permitted to record ANY of their shows? Bah.

[PissedMonkey]

and a followup to myself...

Here's an article from wired...

WIRED: TiVo has always been about empowering the viewer. Why change now?
ZINN: Macrovision changed its policy. So the question was, Do we want to have a Macrovision license with certain restrictions, or none at all? We decided that as long as the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand, consumers would still have the choice. If they don't like a narrower window in which to view programming, they won't purchase it. That'll send a message to the content owners.
You're not legally required to have copy protection. Why not tell Macrovision to stuff it?
That was an option. But if there was no Macrovision license, we would run into a lot of copyright problems with things like remote access and "TiVo to Go" functionality. To innovate and give people more flexibility with broadcast content, we decided it was acceptable to allow content owners to apply protections to higher-value content.

What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.
That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.

With the cable companies in bed with the studios, TiVo could be the last line of defense for the DVR as we know it.
Sometimes I feel that way. We're aware of the danger, and the slippery slope. The danger is that DRM can tilt the balance of copyright so that ultimately there's no concept of fair use, because the content owners dictate what the rules are. But I think content owners are beginning to recognize that if you make things too restrictive, then consumers will find nonlegal ways to achieve what they want.

The "higher-value content" which had restrictions on my TiVo was a 2 year old King of the Hill for Pete's sake! I could maybe in some small way understand it if it were for some PPV boxing fight or something, but for crap like that? Bah! Bah I say!

[stevel]

This hasn't actually been implemented yet - what makes you think TiVo forced a deletion of the program? What does your Recording History say?

[jmoak]

for those who like to see for themselves, since the op can't post a link yet:

Has TiVo Forsaken Us? (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3)

Can you post a screen shot of that crappy notification? It would help a lot in trying to get a response.

"Questions About Macrovision Copy Protection" (http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2186.htm) from Tivo's web site.
:(

I search google for "TiVo Macrovision" and came up with quite a few hits, but most were about trying to dub dvd's to a tivo. There was very little about the "New" macrovision stuff and the ones I found would lead one to believe that this is primarily for ppv's and the like, not regular broadcast shows.

Where'd you go Monkey?? I could really use a screenshot of that notice you got.

Can you come up with one for me to see??

[PissedMonkey]

Can't do a screenshot right now, but there are two TiVo suggested items that have been recorded, and instead of having a little round tivo smiling at me like usual, there's a little red flag next to it. When you select the show, there's a message that says, "Could be deleted any time between now and Sat 9/17 1:00 am".

When I go to "Keep Until", there is no "Keep until I delete" option. Instead there is a message that says, "Could be deleted any time between now and Sat 9/17 1:00 am. Due to policy set by the copyright holder, "Keep until I delete" is not permitted."

Bah. Bah I say!

[jmoak]

Where are you?
What shows have the little red flags and what channels were they recorded on and when were they recorded?
and to parrot stevel:
What does your Recording History say about the deleted "King of the Hill"?

As far as the screenshot, just take a digital picture of the tv screen. It does not have to be great quality, just good enough to read.

[PissedMonkey]

Took some screenshots. Need to one more post to be able to post URLs, apparently...

[PissedMonkey]

or is it 5 posts and then URLs...

[PissedMonkey]

Here's (http://polyphony.org/tivo/IMG_2674.jpg) the now playing list. (yes yes, I know, Oprah and Dharma, what can I say, it's a shared TiVo.)

Here's (http://polyphony.org/tivo/IMG_2675.jpg) the program info.

Here's (http://polyphony.org/tivo/IMG_2676.jpg) the keep until screen.

Here's (http://polyphony.org/tivo/IMG_2677.jpg) the show details screen.

Oh yeah, Bah! Bah, I say!

[stevel]

My guess is that your cable company improperly set the copy protection flag on that program. I did not realize the TiVo software was updated to support this yet.

[jmoak]

Syndicated Shows?!??!?!?? (regular nights for thoes shows are on sunday)
Ok, somethin's very wrong here.....

Were both of these shows on the same channel?
Was the deleted "King of the Hill" on that channel, too?
What does your Recording History say about the deleted "King of the Hill"? Can you get a screenshot of that?

btw, Thanks for the quick screenshots so far!!

No worries, we'll get to the bottom of this!
I think stevel is on to something, although I think it might be the local broadcasting tv station.

[PissedMonkey]

And the real joke is that I'm using attenna reception, no cable, no satellite. (Yes yes, I know it doesn't make sense. I moved to the woods, and I'm 0.3 of a mile out of Time Warner's service area. Also, trees are too dense for satellite.)

My guess is that your cable company improperly set the copy protection flag on that program. I did not realize the TiVo software was updated to support this yet.

[jmoak]

That's It!!!!

All these shows are on the same channel,
Fox ch8 WGHP High Point/Winston Salem!!!

There's no way in heck that these shows can be considered "higher-value content". Either that tv station is being a huge butt or someone there has mistakenly set the flag on these programs.

Has this showed up on any other programs on this channel? Try a quick recording of anything on that channel. See what it tells ya.

[PissedMonkey]

Syndicated Shows?!??!?!?? (regular nights for thoes shows are on sunday)
Ok, somethin's very wrong here.....

Were both of these shows on the same channel?
Was the deleted "King of the Hill" on that channel, too?
What does your Recording History say about the deleted "King of the Hill"? Can you get a screenshot of that?

Yes, both shows were on the same channel.

None of the shows has been deleted yet, and those are the only two that have shown that flag.

Whatever update caused this probably happened around 12:01am Saturday, right before these shows recorded, because the previous nights King of the Hill wasn't flagged.

The Recording History doens't say anything, since the show hasn't been deleted yet.

[jmoak]

Yes, both shows were on the same channel.

None of the shows has been deleted yet, and those are the only two that have shown that flag. Ah... I misunderstood. Sorry 'bout that.
Whatever update caused this probably happened around 12:01am Saturday, right before these shows recorded, because the previous nights King of the Hill wasn't flagged.I don't think it was something that updated that night as this was rumored to be in the recent ver 7.2 update. I assume you've got version 7.2 on your tivo?

Has this showed up on any other programs on this channel? Try a quick recording of anything on that channel. See what it tells ya.

If they're setting the flag on every program......ewwww!

If anyone in that area is reading this thread and is on cable, try to record these shows. Let's see if the flag get's stripped when that channel is re-modulated for cable.

[PissedMonkey]

I just tried recording the local news (gah!), and it had no flag associated with it.

I'll try a few primetime shows later on tonight.

My real question, however, is why would TiVo even allow it in the first place? Having a secret workaround (either a device to remove the flag before it hit the tivo, or a remote control sequence) to bypass this annoyance like the 30 second jump just won't cut it. When somebody hears how great TiVo is, and how it's TV Your Way, and they buy one, bring it home, and find out that they're still under the thumb of the broadcasters, TiVo will be lucky if they don't just return the damn thing. Sacrificing something that's crucial to the nature of the device for the sake of toys like TiVo-2-Go (which didn't work in the 10 minutes I spent on it) is ludicrous in my mind.

Bah! Bah, I say!


That's It!!!!

All these shows are on the same channel,
Fox ch8 WGHP High Point/Winston Salem!!!

There's no way in heck that these shows can be considered "higher-value content". Either that tv station is being a huge butt or someone there has mistakenly set the flag on these programs.

Has this showed up on any other programs on this channel? Try a quick recording of anything on that channel. See what it tells ya.

[PissedMonkey]

Ah... I misunderstood. Sorry 'bout that.
I don't think it was something that updated that night as this was rumored to be in the recent ver 7.2 update. I assume you've got version 7.2 on your tivo?

Yes, it is indeed 7.2.

[jmoak]

I just tried recording the local news (gah!), and it had no flag associated with it.

I'll try a few primetime shows later on tonight. It probably would not be on any local originated shows. It might not show up on the primetime shows either, as they are usually routed straight from the feed to broadcast. This is more likely being mistakenly added via the stations local storage/playout equipment, or via some vid router or conditioner.

My real question, however, is why would TiVo even allow it in the first place? I can only point to the story you pointed to in your second post.

If they are doing this on purpose, my question is more to how can a broadcast tv station have the authority to set this flag on content they did not produce?:confused:

If this ability is gonna be abused like this then tivo has a pretty damn good argument to remove this.

Now that would be one hell of a marketing opportunity!!
;)

I'd still like to know if anyone in the area has experienced this. It could conceivably be a problem with your tivo.

How old and what model is your tivo?

[rog]

PissedMonkey, I understand why you are pissed, but I believe there are a few misperceptions here.

First: content-protection flags did arrive with the 7.2 software. For the justification as to why TiVo added Macrovision-type protection (a.k.a. "the broadcast flag"), read the Zinn interview from Wired Magazine (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3).

TiVo didn't intend for this to be used with syndicated King of The Hill episodes. I seriously doubt Fox or your local station did either.

There are other reported cases of the broadcast flag being accidentally triggered by local TV stations. The other case I specifically remember was determined to be caused (accidentally) by a local cable co.

Especially since your signal is O.T.A. (antenna), it is very possible that this was just a transmission glitch, which your TiVo mistakingly thought was the broadcast flag.

I suspect if you looked hard enough you could find other cases of this, but each one will involve a different local station and different programs... in other words: this is a bug.

[PissedMonkey]

How old and what model is your tivo?

Series 2, probably close to 3 years old.


Especially since your signal is O.T.A. (antenna), it is very possible that this was just a transmission glitch, which your TiVo mistakingly thought was the broadcast flag.

I suspect if you looked hard enough you could find other cases of this, but each one will involve a different local station and different programs... in other words: this is a bug.

I hope you're right. =)

[Justin Thyme]

Isn't this much ado about nothing? Macrovision's idiotic schemes have been trivial to defeat in the past. For analog users, why should this one be any different?

Anyone know if this is stored in the VBI? If a VBI stripper won't defeat it, I can't believe you won't see such boxes floating around on Ebay within a few months of any widespread use of this protection scheme. Of course, if the feed were digital, such protections could be very difficult to defeat.

Analog has a lot of advantages. One of them is relative freedom from these stupid schemes.

[rainwater]

If its a bug, then there better be a workaround. Doing this by accident and saying it was the broadcaster's fault is not going to sit well with users. If shows I haven't seen yet get deleted because of a misuse or misinterpretation of the flag, then it has to be removed until it works correctly (if that is even possible).

[HDTiVo]

There must be a server in China with a TiVo compatible restriction-free MPEG-2 you could download.

[parzec]

Would really like to hear a response from someone at Tivo regarding this issue...anyone listening?

[Justin Thyme]

If its a bug, then there better be a workaround. Doing this by accident and saying it was the broadcaster's fault is not going to sit well with users. If shows I haven't seen yet get deleted because of a misuse or misinterpretation of the flag, then it has to be removed until it works correctly (if that is even possible). Huh? Did you read the article? What accident? As Zinn stated in the Wired article, Tivo observes the Macrovision flag. Why should they get involved in it- If broadcasters are idiotic enough to avail themselves of it, it will be easily defeated.

Tivo's position is correct- this is not a battle they should or could or even need to fight for the consumer.

Wired: "We asked TiVo general counsel Matthew Zinn why he thinks Hollywood will settle for an inch when it can take a mile." The answer is, Hollywood can't take a mile. If they try, they will wind up losing a mile.

Here's why.

If the content owners want to push consumers into patterns of buying software and hardware to defeat DRM schemes, that is exactly what consumers will do. And once consumers cross that line, they will feel fewer constraints about trading content with their friends.

Zinn's point to the content owners was that they would be ill advised to pursue that route. It's a game content owners will lose, and it will create some consumer patterns that are not to their advantage.

Sure, I would like all DVD players to be region free and not output macrovision polluted signals. But it is a minor annoyance. Anyone can defeat them with very low cost devices. Why is the situation with Tivo any different? Why should we expect Tivo to take dangerous risks? To save us the possible cost of a $20 box that at this point isn't necessary because no one except this Salem station has accidently or intentionally used this flag?

Seems pretty silly to me.

[PissedMonkey]

Why should we expect Tivo to take dangerous risks? To save us the possible cost of a $20 box that at this point isn't necessary because no one except this Salem station has accidently or intentionally used this flag?Seems pretty silly to me.

Because the people that read this forum might shell out $20 for a box to remove macrovision tags are only a small portion of TiVo's userbase. By having TiVo's system adhere, by default, to a apparently easily abused system of copy protection that, as I understand it, is not mandated by law is going to significantly lessen the apeal of TiVo in the world of DVRs. The type of person that frequents a TiVo bulletin board will find solutions to any problem that comes in their way, the other 99% of the people will just find another place to spend their money though, and that's going to kill TiVo's $0.00 per share "earnings".

Or something.

Bah. Bah, I say!

[Justin Thyme]

...By having TiVo's system adhere, by default, to a apparently easily abused system of copy protection that, as I understand it, is not mandated by law is going to significantly lessen the apeal of TiVo in the world of DVRs. ...

All I am saying is that this is nothing new. Try this- play a dvd into a dvd recorder Tivo. Now try to MRV it to another Tivo. Guess what it says- That's right. It has a red circle slash- copy prohibitted. Same thing.

Now, anyone who is interested in high quality video signals will be familiar with boxes that clean up interference created from various sources. I don't think anyone would be surprized to learn that Tivo has no problem allowing copying of video that doesn't have a lot of extraneous junk in the signal.

If you clean up your video signal, I think you will be interested in the results.

The people that cared about this sort of thing with DVDs did not flock to CE companies that made DVD players without macrovision protection. It did not as you phrase it, "significantly lessen their appeal" over boxes that had been hacked to remove the protection. It is much cheaper to simply buy a $20 add on box if you want to do that sort of thing. Why belly ache about these impotent schemes? Macrovision didn't stop a whole heck of a lot of people who wanted to dub dvds to VHS or to writable DVDs- and it isn't going to have any affect on similar minded people using DVRs- whatever the brand.

I don't see why you expect Tivo to behave differently. They are a CE company, and have to walk a line to get the content guys to loosen up. I think the content guys are going to find that digital distribution is as much a gold mine as VHS distribution was. Naturally, Hollywood is freaked out about scenarios that their property will be made valueless by easy creation of exact copies of their content. They have good reason to procede cautiously. There are billions of dollars of their property value at stake.

I may poke fun at them when I remark that things like CGMS and this Macrovision thing are pacifiers to get them through this high anxiety phase- but it's very serious business to them. Their survival is at stake, and it may take a while for them to stop hyperventilating.

So in the meantime, if you want to have a higher quality signal, you should probably look at ways of enhancing it. Of course, I do not recommend you attempt to defeat copy protections schemes.

There's no reason to get pissed if it's a trivial problem to deal with.

[ZeoTiVo]

By having TiVo's system adhere, by default, to a apparently easily abused system of copy protection that, as I understand it, is not mandated by law is going to significantly lessen the apeal of TiVo in the world of DVRs.

and the fact that HBO can check for macrovision license and if not found - refuse to let any show record in the first place. Do you think that might lessen the appeal of a TiVo DVR just a bit more ?

TiVo has no choice in the matter that is a good choice. Either have the macovison license and thus honor the macrovision provisions like all the other DVRs do or else decide to not use it and try and explain to customers unaware of such things why channels can not be recorded at all.

As you note, the macrovision is not hard to break, so TiVo will have the license and know that hard core users can have their cake and eat it too. This will be a blip on the radar just like those horrible thumb icons billboard ads that were predicted to fill landfills with TiVo DVRs

[interactiveTV]

and the fact that HBO can check for macrovision license and if not found - refuse to let any show record in the first place. Do you think that might lessen the appeal of a TiVo DVR just a bit more ?
I'm not sure how this would be true.

First off, without a Macrovision license, the WORST that can happen is degredation of the video signal. Without adherence to Macrovision ACP in the Tivo, there is nothing in the ANALOG video signal that could possible force refusal to record. Without a Macrovision IC in the Tivo, how the hell could HBO possibly control in any way what the Tivo records? Try recording a DVD to VHS. The VHS doesn't refuse to record, does it? It just degrades the signal.

Macrovision ACP (APCe) is added to the vido signal and that activation bits instructs the integrated circuit within the cable box (or Tivo) to add ACP to the outgoing analog video. If Tivo did not have a Macrovision license, it would still encode the analog video. It's the quality of that video that could be compromised.

The Macrovision ACP is completely voluntary and is more about being a good corporate citizen. Plugging the analog hole is a near-term issue anyway. And Macrovision ACP is targeted at Video on Demand, not pay channels. HBO does have an on-demand product but if Tivo did not include a Macrovision IC in its products, there is no way the Tivo would refuse to record. That just doesn't make any sense.

There is only an oblique consumer benefit to Tivo licensing Macrovision. The analog restrictions ONLY directly benefit the content rights holders and analog recording restrictions are nothing but a hindrance to consumers. However, since VOD is not broadcast in any traditional sense of the word, allows inherently the ability to (in a limited sense) time-shift (but not archive), and (iirc) only includes a SINGLE view license, it wouldn't be that difficult to show economic harm from allowing PVR recording and there would be minimal (really if ANY) protection under Betamax.

Your "fact" above still appears to be less factual based on how Macrovision actually works. Without compliance (the Macrovision IC) to ACP, the worst that can happen is a degraded video signal. I fail to see how any encoding to an analog video signal could possible control the actual recording (yes/no/time limit) of a program in a Tivo without the ACP chip. That type of control must be added to the OS.

_ITV

[Justin Thyme]

We don't really know that the OP's phenomenon is due to Macrovision and not CGMS, but in any case, this is not a question that has anything to do with macrovision scrambling.

It also has nothing to do with being a good corporate citizen. DVR producers are being forced to bend over, and they have no choice. The content owners are creating interlocking requirements. Want to produce a Tivo that plays or writes DVDs? You need a CSS license. You want a CSS license? CSS requires a Macrovision license. You want a Macrovision license- you have to obey content flags. Macrovision license requires you to obey the copy never flag, to obey the flag that says delete the content within 24 hours of being viewed, and the flag that says you can watch as many times as you like, but the content must be deleted after 7 days. I wouldn't at all be surprized if DTCP and CGMS is all interlocked together too.

The macrovision flags are no big mystery- it's documented on the Tivo site (http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2186.htm):

The content industry is attempting to paint CE vendors into a corner with these interlocking licenses.

Hollywood's problem is that those flags and protections can very simply be removed from analog input signals. If something happens to the signal and Tivo doesn't see the flag, then your Tivo will very happily not exhibit any of these automatic deletion features- further- they are fully compliant with their licenses so they can't be sued into oblivion over something they have no knowlege of, or participation with. Analog is not going away anytime soon, so as I said... Much ado about nothing.

"Plugging the analog hole" is a pathetic fantasy. As long as we still have devices capable of recording analog signals, the content industry will be unable to fulfill a strategy of coercing both consumers and the CE industry. Technically, it is a ludicrous task. Macrovision is running around getting Roxio, Nvidia, etc etc to obey their rules but it is hopeless. Only one unplugged leak and the ship is sunk. Even if they somehow could, what are they thinking? That HD camcorders are not going to soon enough cost $300, and that someone won't get the highly sophisticated idea of pointing their camcorder at their 50 inch electronic display? How will they ever prevent widespread sharing of such HD copies on the net in an anonymous fashion? No- ultimately they have no technical leverage for a coercive strategy.

They will instead have to rely on good will.

Right now, they are doing a very poor job of it.

[starbreiz]

I've been watching this thread, and I know there was another recent thread where someone accidently put this flag on some little cooking show. Everyone's getting all up in arms about this flag... if you're so concerned, why not make your voice heard to the cable companies like HBO who will be using it. I read about it on BoingBoing (<a href="http://www.boingboing.net/2004/12/12/cable_companies_will.html">) in December and wrote a nice letter to HBO and actually got a response. Bitching about MVSN won't do any good, because the flag already exists, their part is done.

[rog]

what starbreiz said.

what i was trying to emphasize in my first post is that this is most likely a bug, and not a deliberate attempt to set the broadcast/copyright flag. this rare glitch on local o.t.a. king of the hill episodes is not about taking away your fair use.

there are other more serious implications to consider with the new technology introduced in 7.2, and there are possibilities for misuse, but that's not what we are seeing here in this thread.

i don't understand the volume of complaints here. this is much ado about nothing.

[interactiveTV]

Only one unplugged leak and the ship is sunk. Even if they somehow could, what are they thinking? Well, we did about 10 threads on this before you got here but basically:

1) consumers are lazy and most won't bother with a "video stabilizer." Which is true.

2) since the majority of consumers don't yet have a PVR, it sets a great path for future content protection schemes. It's easier to start them off with some restrictions rather than try and take away something they will take as a god-given right later.

3) and most importantly, it's another revenue stream for Macrovision which will have trouble in the new, digital world.

But again, we already did a few rounds on this. Tivo told us it was coming. We did the usual, "but they can't! I have fair use!!!" thing. Bottom line is Tivo already is a Macrovision licensee and the license forces the upgraded product.

_ITV

[starbreiz]

3) and most importantly, it's another revenue stream for Macrovision which will have trouble in the new, digital world.
_ITV

I didn't understand this?

[interactiveTV]

I didn't understand this?
Macrovision is in the business of selling product. By coming up with a way to allow VOD (and SVOD) to be protected, Macrovision gets to sell more product. For example, unless I'm mistaken, HBO wasn't a Macrovision customer in terms of cable until the past year.

In the digital world of television, the content protection system is designed by committee and comprised of different moving parts but Macrovision doesn't control it or sell it. It isn't a Macrovision product.

In terms of DVD which has CSS -- already cracked -- Macrovision tries to sell a product but I doubt they'll have anything much to do with HD-DVD or Blu Ray.

http://macrovision.com/products/index.shtml

The bottom line is that Macrovision's analog video products are originally based on automatic gain control (AGC) circuitry originally found in VHS and other tape based recorders. It's an analog product and was, at the time, a very smart way to protect content -- to an extent -- and create lots and lots of revenue. In the digital world, copy protection is created by many companies getting together and is usually created -- nowadays -- prior to introduction of the actual media or distribution. Macrovision's "after-market" type protection racket days are coming to an end.

_ITV

[Justin Thyme]

Well, we did about 10 threads on this before you got here... Actually, the discussion was really over quite a while before that. You are off by a few decades. The issue was beat to death ages ago with Dongles and other DRM schemes in software. For an interesting primer on the subject, consider the following ACM paper published in 2002. I excerpt the conclusion:

There is evidence that the darknet will continue to exist and provide low cost, high-quality service to a large group of consumers. This means that in many markets, the darknet will be a competitor to legal commerce. From the point of view of economic theory, this has profound implications for business strategy: for example, increased security (e.g. stronger DRM systems) may act as a disincentive to legal commerce. Consider an MP3 file sold on a web site: this costs money, but the purchased object is as useful as a version acquired from the darknet. However, a securely DRM-wrapped song is strictly less attractive: although the industry is striving for flexible licensing rules, customers will be restricted in their actions if the system is to provide meaningful security. This means that a vendor will probably make more money by selling unprotected objects than protected objects. In short, if you are competing with the darknet, you must compete on the darknet’s own terms: that is convenience and low cost rather than additional security. "The Darknet and the Future of Content Distribution" (http://www.bearcave.com/misl/misl_tech/msdrm/darknet.htm)

[rainwater]

Huh? Did you read the article? What accident? As Zinn stated in the Wired article, Tivo observes the Macrovision flag. Why should they get involved in it- If broadcasters are idiotic enough to avail themselves of it, it will be easily defeated.


I don't care about the article. I'm talking about the flags that are getting set by accident or illegally that affect us the users. I have no problem if TiVo is required to abide by the flag. However, if users are getting screwed because of the flag being incorrectly set, then there has to be a workaround.

[ZeoTiVo]

I'm not sure how this would be true.

First off, without a Macrovision license, the WORST that can happen is degredation of the video signal. Without adherence to Macrovision ACP in the Tivo, there is nothing in the ANALOG video signal that could possible force refusal to record. Without a Macrovision IC in the Tivo, how the hell could HBO possibly control in any way what the Tivo records? Try recording a DVD to VHS. The VHS doesn't refuse to record, does it? It just degrades the signal. _ITV


a scrambled recording that is enitrely unwatchable is the same thing. since this whole concept is new to many posters in this thread I was making a point not going on ad naseum on the detail

I was further making the point that CE devices are not the correct place to express outrage against. the content providers are the ones looking for ways to protect content and increase revenue. HBO wants you to pay for their channel or rent the DVD. They do not want you to watch a copy a friend easily made on a DVR with a DVD burner.

it will be interesting to watch HBO, etc.. trying to be proactive against the darknet. Of course the real battle will be in the upcoming digital realm of HD after analog is looked upon as no better than pointing a camera at a movie screen.

[interactiveTV]

a scrambled recording that is enitrely unwatchable is the same thing. since this whole concept is new to many posters in this thread I was making a point not going on ad naseum on the detail. Actually, no it's not the same thing. You posted the same "fact" in two different threads and it's inaccurate. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3234271&&#post3234271

and the fact that HBO can check for macrovision license and if not found - refuse to let any show record in the first place. Do you think that might lessen the appeal of a TiVo DVR just a bit more ?

If my PVR never records it, I have no ability to "fix" the AGC. I'm also unsure that the show *would* be "entirely unwatchable" as AGC and MPEG encoding don't seem to go together. I'm not sure the show would be unwatchable at all, actually. It might have AGC issues. Then again, it might not.

Regardless, for accuracy's sake, Zeo, it is OK to admit you were mistaken in the "fact" you posted in two different threads rather than try and walk it back. When there are mistaken "facts" posted about Tivo (labelled as FUD), there is a large outcry to correct them. I've been wrong here as have many others. If we post facts, we might as well make sure they actually ARE.

Without the Macrovision IC and license, there is no way for an analog signal to control whether a PVR records or not.

_ITV

P.S. as for the "revelation" that consumers won't pay for security that doesn't benefit them but only benefits the content rights holders, all I can say is I'm glad I didn't pay for that study.

[morac]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it illegal to tag an over-the-air broadcast with a copy/viewing protection flag. Over the air broadcasts should never be restricted.

[ZeoTiVo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it illegal to tag an over-the-air broadcast with a copy/viewing protection flag. Over the air broadcasts should never be restricted.


yes, the OP experienced a glitch in that the tags were placed in a broadcast stream when they should not have been placed there. These copy restriction bits are an update of the macrovision license and relatively new for broadcasters as well. We saw some of the same of this after 7.1x was released so TiVo has had the code to honor the new parts of the license in palce for a while.

Unfortunately we are seeing local stations having trouble. I speculate that they make some change to exisiting equipment or put some new piece of equipment in place and it inadvertently changes the broadcast stream in an unintended way.

so far I have seen no reports of these glitches lasting for long. Perhaps they can get into trouble if they do not remedy the glitch in a reasonable timeframe.

[interactiveTV]

yes, the OP experienced a glitch in that the tags were placed in a broadcast stream when they should not have been placed there. These copy restriction bits are an update of the macrovision license and relatively new for broadcasters as well. We saw some of the same of this after 7.1x was released so TiVo has had the code to honor the new parts of the license in palce for a while.

Unfortunately we are seeing local stations having trouble. I speculate that they make some change to exisiting equipment or put some new piece of equipment in place and it inadvertently changes the broadcast stream in an unintended way.

so far I have seen no reports of these glitches lasting for long. Perhaps they can get into trouble if they do not remedy the glitch in a reasonable timeframe. I would suggest that since the local broadcast affiliate would have absolutely no use for the Macrovision technology that the tags were not placed in the broadcast stream at all but by the cable operator or maybe even the national feed. We can't know for sure but I don't know why a local affiliate or a broadcast station would have the Macrovision equipment installed for this anyway.

BTW: I recorded HBO on-demand on my Series 1 Tivo in my office. The Tivo didn't refuse to record it, the picture was just fine.

_ITV

[Justin Thyme]

Without the Macrovision IC and license, there is no way for an analog signal to control whether a PVR records or not. Nonsense. The VBI "no copy and expiration" flags information is documented. If software engineers wish to obey these flags, they can choose to allow these signals to control the behavior of their software, or they can choose to disregard them. They certainly don't need the Macrovision IC or license to do so.

[interactiveTV]

Nonsense. The VBI "no copy and expiration" flags information is documented. If software engineers wish to obey these flags, they can choose to allow these signals to control the behavior of their software, or they can choose to disregard them. They certainly don't need the Macrovision IC or license to do so. And I can take money from a bank. I certainly don't need a check or ID to do so. That doesn't make it legal. I'm pretty certain you can't implement Macrovision protections without a license from Macrovision. You can technically do so, I would imagine but

(a) it would be theft of intellectual property to do so without a Macrovision license
(b) it would be pretty stupid

My point was and remains that Zeo's "fact" that HBO -- no mention of the DVR -- but the company -- could enforce a "no record" if no Macrovision license was found on the DVR is FALSE.

That it CAN be done on the OS level was MY EXACT POINT a few posts down:

Your "fact" above still appears to be less factual based on how Macrovision actually works. Without compliance (the Macrovision IC) to ACP, the worst that can happen is a degraded video signal. I fail to see how any encoding to an analog video signal could possible [sic] control the actual recording (yes/no/time limit) of a program in a Tivo without the ACP chip. That type of control must be added to the OS.

so your illuminating "nonesense" post only AGREES with my point that it MUST be done on the software (OS) level. I had already established that but thanks for making the same point again.

There is no way HBO can control your PVR merely due to a lack of a Macrovision license. That "fact" is silly regardless of how many threads it gets posted in or any attempts to couch it.

I'm sure Macrovision would be extremely happy if a PVR manufacturer added its product without paying. We've entered a new realm of discussion: theft of intellectual property on the corporate level where anything goes.

_ITV

[Justin Thyme]

You are out of your element. No Macrovision technology is being used to read the OTA show "protected" in this way. They are 2 APS macrovision bits carried as payload data embedded in the extended data field for closed captioning which is stored in the vertical blanking interval (VBI). This is different than the CGMS bits that HBO is using but they are carried in the same payload.

Those flags can control the PVR software without any license from Macrovision.

In any case, folks that want to turn on or turn off those bits might be interested in the following device. It does not degrade the signal as some "video stabilizers" do, because all it is manipulating is the VBI data. This particular one is nice because it handles Component connectors as well as S-Video and Composite.

http://www.smr-group.co.uk/articles/macrovision_filter_01.html

It seems to me the box may be way overkill- a 2 buck filter circuit to nuke the entire VBI might suffice for use with Tivos.

[Justin Thyme]

Some footnotes to this note that may be of no interest to most folks, but I want to include them here because I for one am going to forget all this stuff in a few days....

BTW-This box may only manipulate the CGMS copy bits, which are different than the macrovision bit flags. I don't know, maybe the designer would be able to answer. He is on avsforums as "Logic Design". Searching for messages authored by him would produce facts about his device. One thread of particular interest may be found here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=529686)

Such a device would take care of HBO behavior, since they are using cgms-a. (http://www.hbo.com/corpinfo/cgmsafaq.shtml)

Of course, a box that entirely reconstitutes and cleans up the video signal would also do the job. A survey of some of the devices is at http://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=243476.

These devices are hardly shady- Professional video guys (weddings, dog shows etc) use the CGMS boxes to add the flags quickly. And without the video stabilizer boxes, many high end video projectors and other devices will not work properly. Compusa sells a popular stabilizer (http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=311514&pfp=SEARCH), as does Best Buy (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6296572&type=product&id=1074788270290) , but you can get them for $53 as a Buy it now price on Ebay (http://search.ebay.com/ws/search/SaleSearch?sofocus=bs&satitle=sima+ct-2&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC5&amp%3Bsspagename=h%3Ah%3Aadvsearch%3AUS&from=R7&nojspr=y&pfid=0&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&fcl=3&frpp=50), or less if you are patient.

The Consumer electronics daily article that was the subject of a thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=193241) a while back. This describes the meeting where Macrovision presented ideas for expanded use (as part of ACP-E (http://www.macrovision.com/company/investor/index.shtml)) of these trigger bits, also known as APS bits. Here is a copy a little more legible than the one copied on TCF:http://www.talkaboutvideo.com/group/alt.video.ptv.replaytv/messages/22024.html None of the chicken little talk happenned- The world not only still has 40 hour Tivos, we have outfits like weaknees who will build us a Tivo with 20 times that capacity if we so desire. Nor do we have any of the non PPV/VOD channels using these flags except in the case of rare glitches like the OP's.

Anyhow, these APS trigger bits are carried in CGMS-A VBI fields on different lines depending on whether the signal is 480i, 720p, 1080i etc. The public specification is EIA-608-B for 480i. Those who prefer their text with lots of pictures will be interested in slide 4 of the CEA slide presentation on CGMS-A. (http://www.cptwg.org/Assets/TEXT%20FILES/ARDG/CEA%20ARDG%20CGMS-A%203-6-03.ppt)

Developers may access the 7bit field directly, or may access it in public apis. MS has it in the VIDEOPARAMETERS (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/gdi/devcons_4h9u.asp) struct within the bCP_APSTriggerBits member. Here is an XFree X-Windows driver (http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/drivers/nsc/gfx/gfx_tv.c?rev=HEAD) retrieving the APS values using a National semiconductor FS450 chip to read the analog signal. See function fs450_get_aps_trigger_bits.

I think Macrovision would very much like to require that their proprietary decoder chip (or at least the functionality of one) be required in all CE devices that carry a Macrovision license. In a few years, it will be inexpensive enough to require all Macrovision licensees to incorporate watermark detection processing so that the macrovision circuitry will be aware when the user is attempting to play pirated content. Such watermarking could even survive the Camcorder taking a picture of a Hidef screen. Huge expense. Easy piggeyback chips or software hacks to defeat them in a few months.

A survey of DRM technologies the MPAA found interesting in 2003 may be found here (http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/teachcomments/motionpiccomments.pdf). This includes CGMS that is only now seeing the light of day and watermarking which we have not yet seen a lot of. (that we know of).

Pointless waste of development resources.

This is just round one in what could be a hundred round fight. But ultimately, Hollywood is going to figure out that they will have to content themselves that these techniques are only speed bumps, and they will have to compete in terms of convenience and cost with the Darknet.

Hollywood will continue to make even more mind bongling amounts of money due to digital distribution, and in time they will realise the practical realities of this new terrain is not the problem they now imagine it to be.

[jg123]

It does seem like there should be a way to turn off the automatic expiry on the Tivo if it was a mistake. Since the mistakes do happen, we ought to be able to call our local station and get some code to unlock the accidently locked show. It doesn't seem right that they can just say, "Sorry our mistake. Oh, and there's no way to undo it. Oops!"

[simonalope]

so far I have seen no reports of these glitches lasting for long. Perhaps they can get into trouble if they do not remedy the glitch in a reasonable timeframe.

I've had "unintended" red flags on every single recording from two channels (from the same provider) since the day I downloaded 7.2, continuing to this day. I also recently discovered that a pre-7.2 recording on that channel was copy-protected (said so in the program info, wasn't able to transfer via TTG), although without a flag. TiVo is aware of what I'm seeing and say they're working on it.

[gonzotek]

I've had "unintended" red flags on every single recording from two channels (from the same provider) since the day I downloaded 7.2, continuing to this day. I also recently discovered that a pre-7.2 recording on that channel was copy-protected (said so in the program info, wasn't able to transfer via TTG), although without a flag. TiVo is aware of what I'm seeing and say they're working on it.
Which channels on what provider in what locality? :) Just curious.

[Justin Thyme]

If anyone actually is experiencing this and can capture this signal to an mpeg file (eg using a PC with a capture board), it would be a nice public service if you could post a small example file up on the net somewhere. It's possible the capture software could strip the info, but if it is closed captions aware, then it may well pass them through.

It would be really interesting to hear what the resolution of this is- if this was due to some local cableco or broadcaster tech fiddling with a closed captions box that he shouldn't have been fiddling with, or whether it was a Tivo bug.

Also- if you know anyone who has a Pal/NTSC converter, or a video stabilizer, and can borrow one, it would be interesting to hear if that nukes the problem.

[starbreiz]

Heh. This thread made it to pvrblog.com.

[Dan203]

The problem with "video stabilizers" is they only work when something other then the TiVo is doing the tuning. (i.e. cable box or DSS receiver) If you have strait cable or OTA going into the back of your TiVo, like the OP, then you're out of luck.

The situation is going to be even more dire when CableCARD devices become the standard and no one is using external tuners any more. Once that happens consumers will no longer have a way to defeat the protection via an external device, and will be forced to either deal with it or resort to complicated software hacks.

Dan

[TiVoStephen]

...forced deletions of shows on my TiVo. PissedMonkey, can you please send me your 15-digit TiVo Service Number? We'd like to investigate this issue. Please e-mail it to me (estephen@tivo.com).

Best regards,
Stephen

[Justin Thyme]

Simonalope, you also report this problem.

Stephen, maybe you would be interested in Simonalope's TSN as well?

[Justin Thyme]

The problem with "video stabilizers" is they only work when something other then the TiVo is doing the tuning. Right. (Minor quibble- they aren't all stabilizers. Actually the CGMS filter is probably vastly superior to the stabilizers/ format converters.)

Consumers may come to the conclusion as I have that analog is much more versatile than Digital. This is what I meant by:Analog has a lot of advantages. One of them is relative freedom from these stupid schemes.

[simonalope]

Simonalope, you also report this problem.

Stephen, maybe you would be interested in Simonalope's TSN as well?

TiVo is in touch with me already about this.

[ZeoTiVo]

I've had "unintended" red flags on every single recording from two channels (from the same provider) since the day I downloaded 7.2, continuing to this day. I also recently discovered that a pre-7.2 recording on that channel was copy-protected (said so in the program info, wasn't able to transfer via TTG), although without a flag. TiVo is aware of what I'm seeing and say they're working on it.


bummer, there is the report of it lasting. I was hoping there was some FCC reg. that would compel the broadcaster to fix things more quickly. Now we can only speculate if it is actual the macrovision bits specifically being set or some close captioning box or other such device is setting something errant and Tivo accidently picking up on it as the bits on copy protection

[davezatz]

Well this topic has got legs... several blogs, in addition to PVRBlog, have picked up the story such as BoingBoing.net. I expect it will continue to spread. Bug or no bug, the technology framework exists on our individual boxes and it seems to rub people the wrong way.

Wouldn't it be nice if Tivo responded by announcing auto-commercial skip, a la ReplayTV, to soothe the masses. Am I dreaming? ;)

[Dan203]

Wouldn't it be nice if Tivo responded by announcing auto-commercial skip, a la ReplayTV, to soothe the masses. Am I dreaming? ;)

Considering ReplayTV was sued and ultimately had to remove this feature, I'd say yes you're dreaming. :)

Dan

[Dan203]

bummer, there is the report of it lasting. I was hoping there was some FCC reg. that would compel the broadcaster to fix things more quickly.

There is! anything broadcast over public airwaves is prohibitied from containing any copy protection. He should contact the FCC and see if they'll throw a few fines at the broadcaster. That should get them to fix it a little quicker.

Dan

[megazone]

There is! anything broadcast over public airwaves is prohibitied from containing any copy protection. He should contact the FCC and see if they'll throw a few fines at the broadcaster. That should get them to fix it a little quicker.
You realize this was most likely a transmission glitch and not something the broadcaster was doing deliberately. This has come up in the past and it has turned out to be a glitch - noise in the VBI which unfortunately matched what the flag would look like.

I saw Cory's rant at BoingBoing - I'd comment there if there were a way, but people forget that ReplayTV and other DVRs *also* have the same MacroVision license and honor the same flags as TiVo. ReplayTV agreed to the license a year before TiVo did! So Cory ranting about TiVo and saying to look at other vendors is misinformed and assinine.

[Dan203]

I realize that the OPs situation was probably just a glitch, but another user (simonalope) claims that one station in his area flags every recording. That's not a glitch, that's a problem at the station and in my opinion warrants contacting the FCC.

Dan

[ZeoTiVo]

I realize that the OPs situation was probably just a glitch, but another user (simonalope) claims that one station in his area flags every recording. That's not a glitch, that's a problem at the station and in my opinion warrants contacting the FCC.

Dan


the broadcasters need to start catching a clue that these kind of glitches are now possible, effect customers and that they need a quick response to fix it.

Letters and then fines from the FCC will probably be the real fix. I wonder if the FCC reg has anything about frequency of errors and time frames to fix.

[dgh]

but people forget that ReplayTV and other DVRs *also* have the same MacroVision license and honor the same flags as TiVo. ReplayTV agreed to the license a year before TiVo did!

One of the ReplayTV varients, the Panasonic Showstopper, had a reputation for "seeing" Macrovision where there really wasn't any.

Macrovsision is more complex than a "flag". It's a "family" of systems designed to fool VCR AGCs. As a result, it takes a little work for a PVR to recognize a member of this family and act "appropriately" yet not be fooled by some similar junk.

[megazone]

Maybe I'm confused, but I thought the broadcast version of MacroVision used bits in the VBI to indicate the kind of restrictions to perform.

I know the media kind - that found on VHS and DVD - plays with the video signal itself, but I didn't think that was true in broadcast.

[TiVoPony]

You realize this was most likely a transmission glitch and not something the broadcaster was doing deliberately.


We do believe this to be the case, and if anyone else sees this happen please do send Stephen or myself a private message with your TSN and any available information about the broadcaster. Thanks.

Simonalope, I believe I've chatted with you. We're talking about a small local PBS station, right? If that's the case, you have been very helpful, and we do appreciate it. I know that our team is trying to get more information from the broadcaster regarding their setup. It's quite likely that they're doing something funky, and have been for a long long time. It's just now that anyone would notice.

As others have noted, we have seen the random occurance of this before. And in each case there's been a glitch or a bug lurking somewhere. Nothing malevolant.

Thanks,
Pony

[Justin Thyme]

Well, it was kind of deliberate/malevolent. Cookie monster ate the CGMS box in the control room.
Maybe I'm confused, but I thought the broadcast version of MacroVision used bits in the VBI to indicate the kind of restrictions to perform. Right- in the extended data field for closed captioning. Fuller details here. (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3239351#post3239351) It's documented as APS trigger bits in EIA-608-B. Prior to this new use, the APS trigger bit values were used to indicate which Macrovision APS scheme to use when outputing a scrambled signal. According to what I read, it is carried in the same 7bit field that also holds the CGMS copy flags- see my reference to a CEA presentation- I think I mentioned it was on slide4.

[rainwater]

Well, I really see no end to these "glitches". It will be like fighting a never ending battle that will only upset the TiVo users. TiVo can contact the broadcasters all they want, but there will certainly continue to be "glitches" like this.

[starbreiz]

Glitches... like when the programming data is wrong, and your TiVo gets the wrong program? Or doesn't record a new episode because it thinks it's a rerun? And TiVo contacts the folks who provide the guide data or whatnot. Glitches of all sorts happen. How is this new? I still feel like people are kneejerking.

[Justin Thyme]

I suppose if it is as Dan says, that it is an FCC violation for OTA broadcasters to turn on these, then Tivo would be doing them a favor if they did not copy over these bits, and send automatic mail to them when such signals are detected. Seems like Macrovision would be amenable to that sort of arrangement. This sort of negative PR is not doing them any favours.

I don't know if Jim Denney is going to get his zero false positives (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-5863529.html) though- Tivo would be legally exposed if due to a Tribune media channel listing error they inadvertently stripped CGMS or Macrovision bits off of a Pay channel.

CNet's Daniel Terdiman led off his story with "A bug in the latest version of TiVo's operating system has some users concerned..."

Once again demonstrating that reporters are paid to write, not read. Right there in the blanking interval of the content, the macrovision flags were saying- I'm protected. Unless there is some provision that Tivo can ignore flags if they have a reasonable basis to believe were unintentionally set, Tivo is contractually obligated to obey those flags, and it's sofware did.

Tivo bug indeed. This is technical reporting? Baldrick had more capacity for comprehension.

[garys]

This issue got "boing-boinged", so expect to see if get lots of additional press. http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/13/tivo_wont_save_certa.html

[Justin Thyme]

Bunch of jingoistic tripe:
Note to potential TiVo competitors: MythTV is like TiVo except it includes all the features that the entertainment industry has intimidated TiVo into leaving out. And it's free. Go make a product out of it, put it in stores, and you will sell a squillion of them.One teensy caveat. Boingoboingo forgot to tell them that this competitor would have to pull all their products that can play any DVDs.

No obey macrovision flags, = no macrovision license.
No Macrovision license = no CSS license.
No Css license, no DVD products.

Right. So the CE vendor gives up products that sell in the 100s of millions for a product that has a hard time selling in the 100's of thousands because the Cablecos are giving them away for free.

Brilliant mind for business you have there, Boingo.

[starbreiz]

I've seen this posted all over the place, so I didn't mention BoingBoing. However, I feel the need to point out that JWZ (http://www.livejournal.com/users/jwz/538018.html) called you tivo fanboys :P

[Justin Thyme]

Oh, that hurt, especially from a fellow who believes he would have gotten this behavior on his DirecTivo were in not for the fact that he had to hack is direcTivo to repair his hard drive.

As if this had anything to do with Tivo. He can't fix his hard drive or get any of the HME or TTG upgrades to his DVR not because of Tivo, but because of DirecTv.

There is a guy responding on that thread that knows his stuff though- zonereyrie's points are on the money.

[starbreiz]

yeah, zone's like the resident guru in the livejournal tivolovers community. i'm somewhat surprised he doesn't frequent this site.

[dgh]

I know the media kind - that found on VHS and DVD - plays with the video signal itself, but I didn't think that was true in broadcast.

I thought that was the type that the Showstopper was mis-detecting but I could be wrong about that.

[Justin Thyme]

Macrovsision is more complex than a "flag". It's a "family" of systems designed to fool VCR AGCs. As a result, it takes a little work for a PVR to recognize a member of this family and act "appropriately" yet not be fooled by some similar junk. Right, but none of the protections (color burst phase shift, gain control macro protection) that we historically associate with the term "macrovision" has relevance to transmission. They do have relevance for copying analog signals output from devices like VHS's or DVDs, or what the digital device is supposed to to when it goes back out to analog form. The macrovision feature relevant to OTA, Cable, Satellite transmissions and computer representations is a different beast.

On DVDs, the aps trigger bits were used to designate which analog protection technique was to be used when generating macrovision's output (none, agc, agc+2line colorstripe, and agc+4 line colorstripe). At the LA IRMA piracy workshop mentioned in the September 2004 Consumer Electronics Daily article (http://www.talkaboutvideo.com/group/alt.video.ptv.replaytv/messages/22024.html), Macrovision revealed its new policy and usage of these fields embedding in CGMS information stored in the closed caption data fields found int the vertical blanking interval. The values in these bit fields correspond to the 4 states that Tivo mentions on its website (http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2186.htm), and in the article.

Obviously, AGC Macrovision techniques have no relevance for broadcast content or computer representation. CGMS-A and the new meanings for the APS (macrovision analog protection system) flags do. Note, these flags are different from the CGMS copy once, copy never, etc. flags, and apparently are intended to augment them with more variety in the kinds of permissions allowed.

Here is the CEA slide I refered to that illustrates in a bold fashion the location of the APS trigger flags:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/Justin_Thyme/CGMSapsbitfield.jpg
Not just CE devices but Computer systems are expected to not only respond appropriately to, but to retain these values as they are processed within a system. This MS document (http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/b/5/5b5bec17-ea71-4653-9539-204a672f11cf/MCPCvidcap.doc#_Toc67974943) explains that to be compliant, a directshow filter must support retaining and responding appropriately to these very bits, and retrict themselves to communicating only with other filters which are macrovision compliant. Presumably, longhorn/vista is going to be the enforcer for this data hand off, and control the queryinterface so that a rogue filter cannot simply lie to the caller. Take a look at the example code for what is supposed to happen if a queryinterface fails to find support for the Macrovision Copy flags (search for aps and macrovision bypass)

IMHO, it is all a pretty shameless milk-money-from-the-gullible-media-industries operation. The emperor has no clothes. None of this junk is anything more than a suitcase lock.

How much simpler can it be stated. Anything that can be seen can be recorded.

Of course simple arguments take a while to sink in. The battleship bombed by Billy Mitchells flyers took only a few minutes to sink into the mud where she was sunk, but this pretty obvious argument never sunk in on the admirals watching the demonstration. Instead, they had Mitchell court marshalled and spent treasure and over a decade to line them up in pearl harbor for another demonstration.

[Mike Farrington]

We're talking about a small local PBS station, right? If that's the case, you have been very helpful, and we do appreciate it. I know that our team is trying to get more information from the broadcaster regarding their setup. It's quite likely that they're doing something funky, and have been for a long long time. It's just now that anyone would notice.

Watch out for those PBS stations. They send out time sync codes with thier signals. I think they're piggybacked onto the VBI, but I'm not 100% sure.

In fact, I believe that it's TiVo's inability to encode and reproduce (or strip) this time sync code on my three PBS stations that is causing me great headaches with my television. Whenever watching recorded shows from PBS, my TV freaks out. It's firmware gets all screwed up, presumably by a malformed time sync signal being relayed from the tivo. I frequently have to turn my TV off and back on to fix it. Sometimes I need to 'cold boot' it by unplugging it for 2-5 minutes.

I know this has nothing to do with this copy protection flag. I just wanted to remind TiVo about the time sync signal that PBS sends out with their broadcasts.

-Mike

[davezatz]

Glitches... like when the programming data is wrong, and your TiVo gets the wrong program?Does the average Joe consumer know or even care who's fault it is? They certainly know Tivo is collecting a fee for the hardware and service, so it seems natural to point the finger in that direction.

Combined with documented system software screwups, one gets the sense Tivo's quality control ain't up to snuff. Which doesn't make them unique in the marketplace, it makes them common. I expect glitches from my Microsoft operating system and poor customer service from Comcast, but for some reason I've always had higher hopes and expectations for Tivo. Until the buggy 7.1 rolled out anyway...

EDIT: I just get a sense that there isn't pervasive attention to detail in the company. For example, there are frequently misspellings on their website. I would think standard QA would include running a spell check and having another person review content. Here's today's example:

Job Title: Oracel Database Administrator (Contractor)
Requisition #: tivo-00000116
Division: Consumer Business Division
Area of Interest: Information Technology

[ZeoTiVo]

yeah, zone's like the resident guru in the livejournal tivolovers community. i'm somewhat surprised he doesn't frequent this site.


he used to until anyone who spoke the real story was labeled a fanboy as if that somehow negated it all and made the FUD actully true. so with too much whining here he went into live journal and seems to like it there. Still tough when you have to post the real story at least 3 times like he did in that thread. Keep it real Megazone :up: PS zonereyrie=megazone

[dgh]

The macrovision feature relevant to OTA, Cable, Satellite transmissions and computer representations is a different beast.

I don't know if the Showstopper distinguished these cases.

[billbo1970]

If they don't fix this in the next release... and quickly... I'll be killing my sub & switching to firefly/snapstream.

The show will automatically delete in a week?! What if you're on vacation.... you're just out of luck!? I don't care if it is a bug or not, the fact the it can happen at all just really ticks me off.

[MickeS]

What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.
That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.

Oh come on, we all know TiVo goes along with everything the content providers come up with. If someone would create a system where you needed to log in to a website before viewing every show, TiVo would say "Oh... well... as long as they can record it, I suppose... but this is it, no more!"

/Mike

[gonzotek]

Made it to slashdot (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/14/1440252&tid=129).

[jmoak]

Oh come on, we all know TiVo is Evil! They have only allowed features that the content providers have overwhelmingly approved of, right? Right?

Evil, Evil Tivo.....


:rolleyes:


this is not a roaring defense of tivo. it's just a sarcastic response to a kneejerk reaction.

I'll hold off on my dissing of tivo for a week to see how they react to this. Fix it and all is well. Continue to allow those who have no right to to flag material to do so and I'm out once the first program I record is affected.

Your turn Tivo.... whacha gonna do?
:confused:

[explodingboy]

The FCC dropped its broadcast flag plans. Now here is helpful Tivo to pick up the slack. This "feature" is total BS. Recording TV programs for personal use is FAIR USE. The courts have clearly supported that right, and this feature prevents you from exercising that right. I'd love to see a legal challenge. And at this point, I'd live to see Tivo go down in a flaming ball of litigation!

[MickeS]

They have only allowed features that the content providers have overwhelmingly approved of, right? Right?

Pretty much, yeah...?

I still love my TiVo. But they are the biggest corporate asskissers I've seen. ;)

/Mike

[Trekkie]

This issue got "boing-boinged", so expect to see if get lots of additional press. http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/13/tivo_wont_save_certa.html

now slashdotted as well. expect raving 'tivo sucks' posts shortly ;)

[kcm]

I'm calling to cancel my subscription today, as I'm tired of the problems 7.x has given me with my 140- unit that TiVo felt they were too good to need to address, and now this crap. I still have SFU episodes from last season I am waiting to sit down and watch in a row - if I can't guarantee that ability, I'll do without a PVR.

Next step will be Comcast's entry in the market. We'll see how long they last before pathetically eating the proverbial gun as TiVo seems to have just done. At least the monthly cost will be half, with no upfront hardware costs, and .. DUAL TUNERS, IN HDTV, etc. et al. As in, a win-win-win situation.

[naikrovek]

I don't care if this is a bug or a glitch or an error or whatever, the TiVo should not support such a stupid feature. if the feature wasn't supported, no glitch would enable it by mistake.

to quote BoingBoing: "Hey, TiVo: since 1984's Betamax decision, Americans have had the right to record TV shows even if the rightsholder doesn't like the idea. That's straight from the Supreme Court's mouth."

The Supreme Court is of higher authority than any television or cable company.

I'm selling my TiVos and cancelling my subscriptions.

Thanks a lot.

[jmoak]

They have only allowed features that the content providers have overwhelmingly approved of, right? Right?

Pretty much, yeah...?You agree with that, eh? Cool! In that case, I've got some land in southern florida I think you might be interested in.

Maybe a bridge, too!

;)

again, just for clairity:
I'll hold off on my dissing of tivo for a week to see how they react to this. Fix it and all is well. Continue to allow those who have no right to do so to flag material for timed deletion and I'm out once the first program I record is affected.

[Lord Nimon]

I'm so glad I still have my S1 with lifetime. I will never, ever, give another dime to TiVo. If my S1 ever fails, I'll just build a MythTV box or something.

I don't care if this problem a bug that's causing some shows to be marked as must-delete. This feature should never have been included in the first place. It's WRONG WRONG WRONG! I feel sorry for everyone who was suckered into buying a S2 box.

[jmoak]

just so I've got this straight,

You guys are slamming tivo and canceling service simply on perceived principle, not because something you've recorded has been deleted, right?

Or have all of you had stuff deleted?

What happens if in a week tivo says, “We’re removing this, as it is not being used in accordance with the guidelines that were relayed to us when we agreed to include this protection.”

Or is it just because we all know they’re just simply evil?
:confused:

[sriggins]

Transmission glitch, programming error, whatever, as soon as the media companies and TiVo decide I can only record something for a set term, I'm gone.

I've been a TiVo customer since oh I think 96/97?, I dunno, somewhere back then, early days :)

I love my TiVo but as soon as they put this restriction on my content, I'm gone. I don't need their content. This is what media producers need to wake up to.

There is plenty of entertaining content in our neighborhoods, in our theaters and on the Internet. If they want to give me the finger, I can give it right back.

This isn't whining - I support their right to do what they want with their content - I just don't have the purchase it.

The more of us that stand up to this, the better chance we have of killing it. But if we give in and say "oh its ok, they really didn't mean for it to be used anyway" it'll come and come hard.

Stand up for your right to watch something more than once or for more than a week. We killed DiVX from Circuit City and never had billions of DVDs sitting in return bins, let's do it again.

Steve

[davezatz]

Can we lock this thread so we don't get Slashdot flames?
I'd rather wait until there is a reason to lock the thread. People may or may not be misinformed and may or may not have a strong response, but so far everyone's been civil.

[ZeoTiVo]

we saw this whole big flap with billboard ads and people saying they were dropping TiVo and long threads ranting on about it.

so how many billboard ads have annoyed anyone lately ? anyone, anyone ?


I am thinking this will turn out to be pretty much the same thing again. :rolleyes:

[kcm]

I've been a TiVo customer since oh I think 96/97?, I dunno, somewhere back then, early days :)

One more in your boat. I had my HDR112 for years, so I know what the trend is here. It's a downward slope, and it's only getting worse. I've been threatening to cancel for months, now, since 7.x came out and gave my unit ridiculous problems that were common among the 140- unit owners (and never fixed), and this is the last straw. TiVo changed how I watch TV in 1997, but now it's changing it again and it's not good this time.

[mearlus]

I have to agree here. It's amazing how people are jumping the gun here. With 'bugs' like this occuring do people really think that if they contact TivoPony or one of the other guys that they can't "untag" your shows if it was done by accident?

Especially if it's the broadcasters that are configured wrong and are sending flags.

A discussion I had with an employee that was developing the new DVR for DirecTV was talking about broadcast flags. He was even saying that their new DVR will allow DirecTV to choose how long you can keep -any- show, and limiting liability to DirecTV for sports broadcasts etc. He sounded like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, a content provider that could and would controll everything a customer recieves.

I'll stick with my Tivo thank you very much. I don't anticipate DirecTV DVR support to be as helpful and personal as we get on these boards. Seriously, how many other large companies can you send a message to someone who -can- get something fixed in a fairly quick amount of time.

"OMG the sky is falling!"

*sigh*

just so I've got this straight,

You guys are slamming tivo and canceling service simply on perceived principle, not because something you've recorded has been deleted, right?

Or have all of you had stuff deleted?

What happens if in a week tivo says, ?We?re removing this, as it is not being used in accordance with the guidelines that were relayed to us when we agreed to include this protection.?

Or is it just because we all know they?re just simply evil?
:confused:

[TiVoJedi]

Does this update affect series 1 TiVos? Occassionally I use my turbonet in mine to extract recordings to make DVDs. I wonder if my TiVo is affected. My wife uses the TiVo more these days, so I'm out of the loop. I've been busy with my MyHD MDP-120 and Fusion 5 Lite HD cards in my PCs recording HDTV without any such restrictions.

I think someone at TiVo needs a spanking for implementing this. I just hope series 1 TiVos are immune since there's no TiVoToGo on them anyway.

[Mike Farrington]

Can we lock this thread so we don't get Slashdot flames? I'm all for debate and discussion, but it could get ugly.
Then let it get ugly. There's no need to preemtively cease an important discussion. This isn't DisneyLand.

[ldconfig]

To dispell two myths i read here.First as a replaytv user (a 5040 and a 5504) There is no "broadcast flag" on anything i record including hooking up a dvd player and manual recording a dvd to either replay box.Second auto comerical skip works great on my 5040 its the 55xx series where that feature was removed.I pulled the hard drives and gave away my S2 tivo this last spring when i first heard of this BS and i am very very very very happy with my replaytv boxes.
CA and IVS rule!!!!

--the spelling and grammar police can byte my ass :D --

[jmoak]

Transmission glitch, programming error, whatever, as soon as the media companies and TiVo decide I can only record something for a set term, I'm gone.
....
I love my TiVo but as soon as they put this restriction on my content, I'm gone. I don't need their content. This is what media producers need to wake up to.I could not agree more! I can understand putting restrictions on what they call "high value content" (ppv's, fights...), but not on fta broadcast content. That's simply ludicrous.
This isn't whining - I support their right to do what they want with their content - I just don't have the purchase it.Another agreement!!
The more of us that stand up to this, the better chance we have of killing it. But if we give in and say "oh its ok, they really didn't mean for it to be used anyway" it'll come and come hard.If we don't see a reaction from tivo in a week, I'm on guard. Once a fta broadcast show is restricted in any way on my boxes, I'm out the door.

Remember when we were told "Tivo's not going to allow their subs to skip commercials!" and "Tivo has Pop-Ups that won't go away!"? They were either a load of crap or were shutdown and never used again.

For over five years now, tivo has "done me right".

I'm not giving in to crap. I'm not gonna start pitching stuff out the door based on speculation, either.

It's your turn Tivo.... whacha gonna do?

[Vhalkyrie]

I hope this is a mistake, but from the wired article and screenshots, it doesn't seem so. The only way I can vote against this is with my dollar, so the first time I see this show up on my TiVo, I'm cancelling my TiVo and cable subscriptions. I could stand to save the money anyway.

I can either go back to recording with analog devices or create my own DVR without the restrictions. As long as I have a DRM free source, there's no way they would be able to tell whether my video is going to my TV or my computer. I was going to purchase the newer TiVo with DVD burner, but looks like I'll be spending that money on a new bike instead.

[johnmacd]

If they don't fix this in the next release... and quickly... I'll be killing my sub & switching to firefly/snapstream.

The show will automatically delete in a week?! What if you're on vacation.... you're just out of luck!? I don't care if it is a bug or not, the fact the it can happen at all just really ticks me off.

You have a sub to stop. What about people with lifetime? If you have a sub you can stop paying and send TiVo a message. Can't do that with lifetime. Also when I got my lifetime, macrovision wasnt an option. So why am I being forced to accept it? Why do I have to take the update? Shouldn't I be given the choice not to accept these new features? I should have the choice of opting out of all future releases.

[rainwater]

we swaw thi whole big flap with billboard ads and people saying they were dropping TiVo adn long threads ranting on about it.

so how many billboard ads have annoyed anyone lately ? anyone, anyone ?


I am thinking this will turn out to be pretty much the same thing again. :rolleyes:

This is not even close to the same. The BB ads didn't delete my programs. TiVo can call it a glitch all they want (now I guess they are saying they are not interpreting the 'noise' correctly). However, even if it was a glitch, the fact that TiVo is now giving content holders the right to delete your programs is not going to sit well.

[sstrangee]

Time to get a ReplayTV.

I've been using Tivo for awhile but have looked into a ReplayTV. I think it's time to make a change.

ReplayTV here I come!

[MrLint]

I think that this is a legitimate gripe, and ppl are gonna be pissed. I know if i get hit by it I will stop what im doing and immediately cancel. I have no intention of paying for a service that, when i'm the customer a media organizations demands are taken over mine.

That being said. A suggestion to lock the tread is plain disingenuous, if the is going to be discussion let there be. If the thread gets locked then the message is clear that someone has made a decision on what is right and wrong and there is an official stance instead of discussion (which has occurred at this site before.)

I dont have any love for wanting to squelch relevant discussion, when the main reason is CYA

[OldTimer001]

I've been a TiVo subscriber for a long time and have recommended it to numerous friends and family. I don't mind copy protection for movies or any of the other stuff mentioned here. But the day my TiVo tells me that I only have X number of days to watch a recording before it is automatically deleted is the day I cancel my subscription and build a MythTV box. I sometimes go months before I watch something I have recorded - putting a time limit on any recording defeats the reason that I use a DVR.

[stace]

I regularly record entire seasons of a show to watch in the offseason. Luckily (heh) I'm a DirecTiVo user, so our way-behind-the-times software doesn't have this 'feature'.

However, the day they implement this for me, I stop using it. This is ridiculous.

[vhold]

I can't comprehend forced deletion -period-. Disabling pay-pay-view programs from functioning with Tivo To Go I think is vaguely reasonable, but what good is forcing deletion?

Do they seriously think we are going to be made more likely to buy their season DVDs or something? Is somebody out actually there using a Tivo to perform unauthorized performances in commercial spaces, and even if they were, is it really worth smacking us all with this restriction?

I know I'm currently in the minority, but anything with overzealous DRM I just entirely stay away from. I think the people responsible for this sort of thing are completely unable to see that every single baby step they take into stricter DRM, the closer they are to going off the cliff that leads to widespread mainstream boycott.

Or more realistically I suppose, the more zealous DRM becomes, the more people completely bypass all controls and find noncommericial sources for their media.

[MarcPerkel]

My My My .... It appears to me that a healthy thing is finally occuring here. Just a couple of years ago such a discussion would have resulted in all the TivoHead Kool-aid drinkers bashing the original poser over his audacity to suggest that Tivo might be in anyway wrong.

Now there's a real dialogue happening here. This is very good.

Keep in mind that there are always alternatives. In many ways MythTV is now better than Tivo. multiple tuners, Digital (& HD) signal compatible, network streaming, and no MacroVision or DRM or ongoing fees, DVD ripping/Burning, etc, etc..

For those who are noticing a strange taste in their Kool-Aid lately check out http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html
or
http://www.mythtv.org

Of if you want to see a video on setting up a MythTV install get this file:

http://videos.revision3.com/systm/0002/systm--0002--mythtv--large.wmv

[briguymaine]

There's no way in heck that these shows can be considered "higher-value content".

DVD "Complete Season" sales could be driving this. Those DVD compilations are HUGE sellers for the owners of those shows.

Or it could be a mistake...

[rainwater]

DVD "Complete Season" sales could be driving this. Those DVD compilations are HUGE sellers for the owners of those shows.

Or it could be a mistake...

It's not a mistake that TiVo added this feature. However, why would they agree to forced deletion is beyond me. I can understand disabling TTG but forced deletion is ridiculous. What's the point of having a TiVo if you can't leave it for a while and come back and watch the shows you wanted to watch?

[mondoz]

You have a sub to stop. What about people with lifetime? If you have a sub you can stop paying and send TiVo a message. Can do that with lifetime. Also when I got my lifetime, macrovision wasnt an option. So why am I being forced to accept it? Why do I have to take the update? Shouldn't I be given the choice not to accept these new features? I should have the choice of opting out of all future releases.

I totally agree.
Why is a lifetime subscription member's voice completely muted?

I don't recall, but is there something about this in the original TOS? Anything about 'you can save shows as long as you want* *subject to change without notice' ?

That smells a bit like a bait and switch to me. Even if this is just a glitch, and the shows mentioned in this thread aren't typically subject to this type of auto-deletion, having the mechanism in place allows content providers to auto-delete whatever they feel like, then beg forgiveness later.

Their interview says they want this so they can provide services like TiVo to go and such, but what about those who don't want any of that? I'd like a version of the OS that doesn't provide this auto-delete 'upgrade' please. Thanks.

[moxley]

This is ridiculous. First they try to cripple stuff I transfer to my PC using Tivo-to-Go (i haven't updated mine yet but I will soon) to prevent me from removing the stupid TIVO wrapper from the stuff I am going to burn on DVD (that's easily fixed) and now this?

I just built a kick ass media center PC. I may cancel my tivo service if this stuff starts giving me problems.

Tivo is supposed to be ALL ABOUT give you control, so you can watch what you want WHEN you want to. They have shown time and time again that they will betray their users and take more and more control away from them to appease the big media media conglomerates ignorant concerns about content protection.

THis is classic fear based approach (see the current US administration for reference) - because a small amount of people may do something that they don't agree with or consider abusive - they decide to punish or limit everybody. WTF?

There will always be people who will hack and do whatever. These people are innovators, the early adopters, the ones who help promote these new technologies.

Keep it up Tivo. You'll lose everything that makes Tivo worth having. And once the techies are gone to something new and less crippled, eventually the moms and pops will follow.

[mearlus]

I agree with this. I can see a point to not allow PPV etc to be transfered off of a tivo to a computer for copy protection purposes (Although I don't like it as I'd like to watch all of my content on any of my devices). I do not agree with not allowing the end user to "Save" the recording indefinately on the DVR.

With our busy schedules and the rediculous amount of shows we want to watch, we have almost entire seasons saved on our Tivo for when we have downtime to watch them. (Case in point, we have 14 episodes of ER to watch from last season still :P) The whole point of us getting a Tivo (Now we actually have 2) is so we didn't have to have a stack of 15 VHS tapes with shows to watch.

The only reason I can fathom a 'time limit' would be set on how long you can save a show is to force the purchase of DVD seasons. Most newer shows don't replay the new episodes, and if they do it is just before the next season starts.


I've been a TiVo subscriber for a long time and have recommended it to numerous friends and family. I don't mind copy protection for movies or any of the other stuff mentioned here. But the day my TiVo tells me that I only have X number of days to watch a recording before it is automatically deleted is the day I cancel my subscription and build a MythTV box. I sometimes go months before I watch something I have recorded - putting a time limit on any recording defeats the reason that I use a DVR.

[dgh]

You have a sub to stop. What about people with lifetime? If you have a sub you can stop paying and send TiVo a message. Can do that with lifetime. Also when I got my lifetime, macrovision wasnt an option. So why am I being forced to accept it? Why do I have to take the update? Shouldn't I be given the choice not to accept these new features? I should have the choice of opting out of all future releases.

You should have read the agreement before signing up for lifetime.

But cheer up! When you typed (typo'd??) "Can do that with lifetime." you were right! Lifetime can be resold today for a substantial portion of what you paid - some people have actually made a profit - so if you want to go, you can and your equivalent monthly TiVo service fee comes out pretty close to zero. Lifetime is a heck of a deal compared to monthly in any case.

[johnmacd]

I totally agree.
Why is a lifetime subscription member's voice completely muted?

I don't recall, but is there something about this in the original TOS? Anything about 'you can save shows as long as you want* *subject to change without notice' ?

That smells a bit like a bait and switch to me.

Not sure if its bait and switch, but I agree that its not what we signed up for. Being a lifetime subscriber one should be given one of two choices-depending on how TiVo decides to do it:

if TiVo continues to force lifetime subs to accept new releases, then one of two things should happen:
A-you accept the upgrade and continue to get guide data
or
B-you dont accept and you have the option to get all you lifetime sub money back, (no-prorating of the monthy fees)
or
What I would like to see:
C- You can stop getting upgrades and have the one time option of downgrading to any version that may have been on your machine at one time. You can still get guide data. And at any time you have the option of accepting this new Macrovision DRM'd upgrade if you so choose to accept it. But then no going back to non DRM'd.

[dt_dc]

Time to get a ReplayTV.

I've been using Tivo for awhile but have looked into a ReplayTV. I think it's time to make a change.

ReplayTV here I come!It should be noted that according to various articles (for example: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2202498&&#post2202498 ) ReplayTV, Microsoft (MCE), and various other DVR manufacturers have signed the exact same Macrovision license agreement for respecting expiration trigger bits.

[rainwater]

It should be noted that according to various articles (for example: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2202498&&#post2202498 ) ReplayTV, Microsoft (MCE), and various other DVR manufacturers have signed the exact same Macrovision license agreement for respecting expiration trigger bits.

It's not about signing an agreement. It's about how its implemented.

[kcm]

It's not about signing an agreement. It's about how its implemented.

Yup. I don't trust TiVo any more, given their recent past. That's why I just cancelled.

[Justin Thyme]

People are looking for a bogeyman here- And no wonder. No one likes some outside entity to reach into their homes and tell them what to do.

But I am convinced people just want to post rants and have no interest in reading or attempting to figure out what is going on.

Ever wonder why it is we don't see any CE companies producing a machine that will ignore macrovision and dub a DVD to another DVD or to VHS tape? Is it because the CE companies in China are in collusion with Hollywood? Guess again.

It is because you have to have a license (a CSS license) for the technology to read any DVD. If you agree to that license, you also have to agree to get a Macrovision license. The quoted correspondence from the president and the CTO of Macrovision confirms this fact.

Tivo thinks that the public needs Tivos with features common in other CE devices. Those features (like DVD playback and recording) require participation in the network of interlocking agreements that legally prevent CE companies to offer many features that large numbers of consumers want.

If you look at the following letter, you will see that Macrovision is not exactly the puppetmaster everyone makes them out to be. They are in a squeeze between the demands of CE manufacturers that can't build product until specifications are release, and between the studios, who don't want to agree to release content that will play on those devices until they are assured that they aren't going to be ripped off egregiously. If Macrovision doesn't create products the studios are pleased with, there are plenty of competitors ready to step up with even more draconian schemes.

The studios aren't nuts either- they know a lot of copying is going on and they will never prevent it all- yet they are of the opinion that it is a poor business model to go to the work of providing Arabic subtitles for "Field of Dreams" and then selling only one copy. That's pretty much what is happening now. The studios aren't evil either. They are spreading glimpses of America to the world. They just want to see some constraints on this kind of widespread rip off.

But since we are analysing this in very raw selfish terms, notice that the studios are a major positive contributor to our balance of trade. Ever notice that America has a dwindling number of exports? That means fewer dollars in our paycheck.

So they put these suitcase locks on the content to slow down rampant copying. Fine. Several notes back I gave pointers to products that can easily defeat them. Don't want to pay for one at Compusa. Fine buy one for $25 on ebay. Or look up circuits on the net that allow you to read VBI closed caption information. It is much easier to nuke than it is to read. I figure about 2 bucks in parts and you are good to go. So even the video anarchists really have no practical impediment to them and this is just religious bellyaching about the "principle" of the whole thing.

Have your cake and eat it too.

There are some who will decline over principle. Well great- everyone from the studios to the anarchists have their 20 and 30 somethings ready to burn down the world for the sake of their idiotic jihads over "principle" while the rest of us could care less. We just want to be able to watch video the way we want to watch it. And we are willing to pay a fair price too.

So everyone just needs to stop hyperventilating.


The following is an email chain apparently sent by the president of Macrovision to an institutional investor. Although the particular issue of PAL standards is of no interest here, the correspondense provides many some interesting facts on how arrangements work. For example, it mentions the link that CSS licenses require a macrovision license. Lifted from site: http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17587
From everything I have read previously, it was alluded that the delay in PAL Progressive was due to the "lack of agreed copy protection standard", with the finger pointed at macrovision for not having this ready.

On Friday, I had the opportunity to meet with the President of Macrovision, and I asked him for his thoughts on this matter.

He didn`t think it was them , but said he would check with his chief engineer.True to his word, this morning I received the following answer.....

Subject: RE: Macrovision Encoding for 625p Waveforms


Dear Steven-
re our conversation on Friday about whether Macrovision is responsible for the delay in the launch of 625p (PAL progressive scan) CE devices, please see the response below from Peter Wonfor who is our Director of Technical Support for our Video Technology division.* Please let me know if you have any additional questions.* Also- if you have a minute, perhaps you could let me know more specifically where the query came from?

Thanks
Bill

Bill Krepick
President/COO
Macrovision Corp.
1341 Orleans Drive
Sunnyvale, CA* 94089
tel* 408.743.8420
fax* 408.743.8610
e-mail: bkrepick@macrovision.com

*-----Original Message-----
From: * Peter Wonfor*
Sent:** Friday, May 18, 2001 5:31 PM
To:**** Bill Krepick
Cc:**** Carol Flaherty
Subject:******* Macrovision Encoding for 625p Waveforms
Importance:**** High

Hi Bill:

I understand that one of our intitutional investors has heard comments from either the studios or the hardware manufacturers that Macrovision is holding up the introduction of 625p (Progressive Scan) outputs on DVD players.* I find this extraordinarily surprising, and feel that there must be a misperception somewhere.* Since the procedure to adopt a new output signal standard is not as simple as might reasonably be imagined, I hope the following brief summary of the status of 625p copy protection, and what needs to be done to permit its introduction will help to explain this.

1. Macrovision has provided a timely proposal for a Macrovision-encoded 625p copy protection waveform in response to requests from a number of CE hardware/device companies and IC manufacturers.* For the same technical reasons that applied in the case of 525p copy protection, the proposed 625p copy protection waveform can not be field tested by Macrovision since there are no (or insufficient) pre-existing 625p capable display products deployed in the market on which to perform compatibility tests.

Macrovision has contacted the Studios directly to let them know that Macrovision is prepared to support 625p copy protection encoding and that the proposed Macrovision encoded waveform definition is available.

2. The only entities that can approve the use of 625p outputs on DVD players are the rights holders (studios).* Once the studios have endorsed the concept of having Macrovision copy protection on the 625p outputs, a modification to the CSS license agreement would be required, since this is linked to the requirement for a Macrovision license and to implementing copy protection on analog video outputs.*

3. To expedite the introduction of DVD players with 625p outputs, those with the primary interest in achieving this objective need to make representation to the studios, since the studios are the onces to decide whether 625p copy protection using Macrovision's technology is satisfactory.* By presenting its 625p copy protection waveform specification proposal to the CPTWG (Copy Protection Technical Working Group) Macrovision has made this information available to a wide relevant audience that included representatives of the studios, hardware companies, IC manufacturers, and representatives of the DVD Forum and DVD-CCA (i.e., CSS Licensing entity) organizations.* Macrovision cannot unilaterally approve and release a 625p Macrovision waveform definition for the same reasons as were applicable in the case of 525p.

4. Display manufacturers have a specific interest in any new waveform that their products are expected to be compatible with.* Macrovision has responded to all such manufacturers requesting information, and has proactively contacted other CE manufacturers in an attempt to make sure that the proposed 625p Macrovision encoding will be compatible with 625p display products that come on to the market.

5. Since no additional license fees or costs will be charged by Macrovision for 625p Macrovision encoding (it will be included in the existing 525p specifications and agreement documents upon approval by the Studios and DVD authorities) there is no delay to the adoption of 625p as a result of cost considerations.

I would be very interested to find out how the impression arose that we were responsible for holding up implementation of 625Progressive Scan devices.* Macrovision has no interest in delaying the launch of 625p-capable products; Macrovision's objective is to support the Studios in providing the best possible copy protection for any analog video signal format with which its technology is compatible.* This would hardly be achieved by deliberately delaying the introduction of products with 625p Macrovision-encoded outputs.

I hope this is helpful.* Please let me know if you have any comments or questions.


Any thoughts folks !!

[ldconfig]

There is NOT any DRM on my two replaytv units!!!!!!!

[MickeS]

jmoak, which documented features does TiVo have that are not approved by content providers?

[Justin Thyme]

Give me a break. Tivo to Go for one. For cripesake- have you gotten a clue that you can torrent a show to your computer then play it on your Tivo?

You think the studios like that little arrangement? Of course not. Tivo didn't build it for that purpose, and they do not condone of its use that way, but they have provided you a very powerful product and cheap product that allows you to do that.

None of the studios want to see copying from DVRs to computers because they fear there are no further barriers to seeing it go out via BitTorrent to everyone. Then it becomes a much more difficult to manage problem.

It scares the bejebahs out of them, because once it is out of the familiar control environment they have in the CE world, they think they will see their sales get halved, quartered, or worse.

[MickeS]

Ever notice that America has a dwindling number of exports? That means fewer dollars in our paycheck.

Wow, you convinced me! Thanks, TiVo! By forcing me to watch a show within 7 days after it was recorded, you help me to contribute to an improved US trade balance. If I hadn't checked this thread I would never have known!

Give me a break. Tivo to Go for one. For cripesake- have you gotten a clue that you can torrent a show to your computer then play it on your Tivo?


What about TTG did content providers not agree with? The negotiations before it was released were long and hard in order to please them. If they (specifically the NFL, IIRC) had not agreed, it would not have happened. So tell me again, which documented feature of TiVo is not approved by content providers?

/Mike

[jmoak]

jmoak, which documented features does TiVo have that are not approved by content providers?quickly, here's two:

FCC ignores MPAA, NFL; OKs new TiVo feature (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000592927)

TiVo experiments with Internet download service (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/services/2005-08-12-tivo-internet_x.htm)

[Dan203]

There is NOT any DRM on my two replaytv units!!!!!!!

That's because the software on your ReplayTV has not been updated in years. Series 1 TiVos don't have DRM either. ReplayTV signed the same contract TiVo did. When/IF they ever decide to upgrade the software again you too will have this new "feature". Microsoft also signed the deal, which means the next version of MCE will have it as well.

My biggest problem with this "feature" is it's blind compliance. It's illegal for broadcast programming sent over public airwaves to contain copy protection, so why not design the software to ignore these "glitches" on channels that are known to come from those channels? I'm sure their data provider could supply them with the information necessary to make that happen. Or they could just do something generic like look at the call letters and see if they're 4 digits and start with a K or W, or ignore protection on channels 2-13. Anything to prevent this from applying to programs where it's legally not suppose to be applied.

Dan

[Justin Thyme]

So tell me again, which documented feature of TiVo is not approved by content providers?

/MikeMaybe I was confused by the semantics. I thought you had a beef with jmoak's comment because you were under the mistaken notion that the studios approve of what Tivo is doing, which they most certainly do not. So what else do you mean? Formal approval? Fine.

Show me the document, or any reference to a document where the studios gave their approval for TTG.

Uh huh. They would never do such a thing. Maybe the best any CE company in this position could expect is to get a gentleman's agreement from the MPAA not to file suit immediately.

Tivo pushed the content owners as far as they could prudently go at that juncture.

Tivo is pushing the envelope for mainstream users, not Myth, and certainly not Microsoft.

[ldconfig]

It was updated to 440 a couple of months ago Dan203.

[mearlus]

On a side note about the content flag. If a single episode of a show is flagged and it is in a group of episodes will the group folder icon show a flag on it? I'm wondering if new episodes of a show that suddenly/accidently get flagged will show up as being flagged without actually having to go inside of the group.

Does anyone have any shows that are flagged and are in a group that could shed light on this?

Thanks

[ZeoTiVo]

This is not even close to the same. The BB ads didn't delete my programs. TiVo can call it a glitch all they want (now I guess they are saying they are not interpreting the 'noise' correctly). However, even if it was a glitch, the fact that TiVo is now giving content holders the right to delete your programs is not going to sit well.


TiVo is not giving content holders the right to delete content. they are working within a macrovision license that enforces rights the content holder hasa valid claim to. Only a court with another fair use case can give or take away rights or Congress with a law.

the flags seen in this thread are not rights the content owner or broadcaster had. That is why it is a glitch, mistake, whatever and the broadcaster needs to fix it. Some are kneejerking like they are going home to find red flags all over their TiVo. this won't be the case.

now if you want HBO or PPV or whatever they have a license with you when you purchase the content. They are making sure , via macrovison, that the DVR you use enforces those contracts/licenses or else they will start legal action against that DVR maker, like what happened with replayTV on commercial skip and internet file sharing.

the problem is that HBO and others have a legal right to enforce their contract/license and if TiVo resists that it faces large legal hassles from a much larger entity. ON the other hand TiVo has this problem of enforcing macrovision but getting errent signals from boradcasters that do not have a legally binding contract/license but the software can not tell the difference.

[dgh]

My biggest problem with this "feature" is it's blind compliance. It's illegal for broadcast programming sent over public airwaves to contain copy protection, so why not design the software to ignore these "glitches" on channels that are known to come from those channels?.

Good idea but people are always hacking up configurations where a TiVo is told it has one source when it really has something else connected to the same input, so any such distinction can't be made on anything TiVo merely believes, based on the user's claims, to be the source. Of course anything can be overridden with enough effort but if TiVo only looks at it's alleged lineup for something like this, that just seems too easy to me.

[Dan203]

It was updated to 440 a couple of months ago Dan203.

I did not know that. Was this a feature update? Or a simple bug fix? The contract may stipulate that they only have to integrate this "feature" in major feature upgrade versions. Or maybe ReplayTV found some way arround it?

Dan

[Dan203]

Good idea but people are always hacking up configurations where a TiVo is told it has one source when it really has something else connected to the same input, so any such distinction can't be made on anything TiVo merely believes, based on the user's claims, to be the source. Of course anything can be overridden with enough effort but if TiVo only looks at it's alleged lineup for something like this, that just seems too easy to me.

But those sorts of workarounds are no different then someone using a VBI stripper or "video stabilizer" to remove the Macrovision in the first place. They're not common knowledge and would not likely be used by the masses.

Dan

[dgh]

But those sorts of workarounds are no different then someone using a VBI stripper or "video stabilizer" to remove the Macrovision in the first place. They're not common knowledge and would not likely be used by the masses.

I think picking something different on a TiVo menu is a whole different class of easiness then adding an additional gadget myself, but I guess the lawyers can argue that.

I mean, in the help forum, we sometimes have trouble convincing people to invest in an A/V switch when they run out of inputs. ;)

[Justin Thyme]

Good idea but people are always hacking up configurations where a TiVo is told it has one source when it really has something else connected to the same input, so any such distinction can't be made on anything TiVo merely believes, based on the user's claims, to be the source. Of course anything can be overridden with enough effort but if TiVo only looks at it's alleged lineup for something like this, that just seems too easy to me.Aren't their larger issues than that? What if Tivo misidentifies a channel as being inelligible for using the flags and strips them? Seems to me they would be liable for damages from every content owner whose property was affected.

It would be an effective way to kill a CE company from the death of a thousand cuts.

[ZeoTiVo]

Aren't their larger issues than that? What if Tivo misidentifies a channel as being inelligible for using the flags and strips them? Seems to me they would be liable for damages from every content owner whose property was affected.

It would be an effective way to kill a CE company from the death of a thousand cuts.


true - but right now TiVo is getting hurt with the death of a hundred cuts as different broadcasters keep turning up with this glitch. At some point TiVo has to do something to stave it off if getting the broadcasters to fix their end fails to get results.

the bottom line is indeed that we do not see limits on shows that should not have limits. I would be upset if a flag popped up on RockStar:INXS as my wife and I watch it and like to go back and watch the older performances off the PC. Also have American Idol on the PC that the kids like to watch. I pull the 4400 onto my smartphone to watch at lunchtime, etc...

so TiVo gets to do a fire drill and find out what is going on with these errent flags. Hope someone orders them a pizza

[Popasmurf]

This thread has now been slashdotted! http://slashdot.org/articles/05/09/14/1440252.shtml?tid=129

[Y-ASK]

true - but right now TiVo is getting hurt with the death of a hundred cuts as different broadcasters keep turning up with this glitch. At some point TiVo has to do something to stave it off if getting the broadcasters to fix their end fails to get results.

Tivo should have never released control to begin with. To me that is the biggest "crime" of all. They released control to the boardcasters for those stupid popup advertisements and now they've released control again with this macrovision crap. The worst part about it is that they were not required to implement the macrovision flags. Glad I still have my two series 1 Tivos and a nice Snapstream Beyond TV setup.

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

This thread has now been slashdotted! http://slashdot.org/articles/05/09/14/1440252.shtml?tid=129
a real insightful thread they have going there
I want content providers to copywrite my colonoscopy movie and licence it back to me. :rolleyes:

[ZeoTiVo]

Tivo should have never released control to begin with. To me that is the biggest "crime" of all. They released control to the boardcasters for those stupid popup advertisements and now they've released control again with this macrovision crap. The worst part about it is that they were not required to implement the macrovision flags. Glad I still have my two series 1 Tivos and a nice Snapstream Beyond TV setup.

Y-ASK

the new business world is all about interlocking relationships. MythTV is an island of a very good open source DVR but it has no busienss relationships and thus lnaguishes behind MCE that has business relationships.

either TiVo gets into these interlocking relationships or dies out.

[ldconfig]

Dan203 all it did was remove CA and IVS on 55xx series that were running a 50xx image.And a guide update.

[jmoak]

They released control to the boardcasters for those stupid popup advertisements and now they've released control again with this macrovision crap. Tivo "took back" that control and we have never seen the "big block in the middle of the screen" that covered ALL comercials and programming again.

I'm hoping tivo does that one more time.

[gonzotek]

Tivo should have never released control to begin with. To me that is the biggest "crime" of all. They released control to the boardcasters for those stupid popup advertisements and now they've released control again with this macrovision crap. The worst part about it is that they were not required to implement the macrovision flags. Glad I still have my two series 1 Tivos and a nice Snapstream Beyond TV setup.

Y-ASK
Actually, TiVo is in control of the popups. The popup graphic must be loaded by the TiVo mothership to your personal TiVo unit before a commercial can trigger the display of it. If a broadcaster or content provider were improperly using them (showing them on top of West Wing or ER, or running a coke popup over a pepsi ad), TiVo could (and in all likelyhood would for both business and legal reasons) terminate that ad the next time your unit calls home.

[mdbelt]

Well I was originally irritated when I learned new software versions for series 1 tivo's aren't happening, but now it may be a blessing in disguise. I'll just sit back with my old SAT-T60 & keep these recordings as long as I want. I think hell would have to freeze over for DirecTV to pay up & upgrade the DirecTiVo series 1 anymore.

Michael

[Justin Thyme]

Heck series 2 users aren't out in the cold. Anyone can pay pvrupgrade to hack their boxes. The owner can have it done to a machine imaged with a pre 7.2 system and then turn off updates.

Or they can do it themselves if they have the motivation.

Or they can buy a $25 buck box to strip the flag off of an analog signal. Personally, that one makes more sense to me- I like TivoBack watching my terabyte server's jukebox of hundreds of archived shows.

Lots of workarounds.

[Y-ASK]

Actually, TiVo is in control of the popups. The popup graphic must be loaded by the TiVo mothership to your personal TiVo unit before a commercial can trigger the display of it.

Actually we are both correct! Tivo controls the fact that an image must be downloaded to the box but the advertiser is in control of the size and placement of the Ad. That was one of the problems with the Large Ad that showed up a few months ago. And the Tivo gets the size and placement information from the Advertiser.

[Y-ASK]

Tivo "took back" that control and we have never seen the "big block in the middle of the screen" that covered ALL comercials and programming again.

I'm hoping tivo does that one more time.
Are you sure they took back that control? Could be that we just haven't seen any screwups lately. The way the Tivo Reps. described the issue they really did not take away anything. They just fixed the size of the Ad for that one screwup.

Y-ASK

[wevets]

This is not "broadcast flag". BF only applies to digital content and as over-the-air, this can't be it. There are ways of marking analog TV, notable CGMS-A, which sets a bit in line 21 in the vertical interval, which is coming into wider use. That's probalby how this content was marked. CGMS-A can be used as a queue to turn on Macrovision when the content is output on analog lines.

BF as mandated by the FCC was invalidated by the courts as an overstepping of FCC authority. What it mandated, in addition to how digital television should be marked was that vendors of consumer TV equipment must watch for the BF and protect the content if the BF was present. (And that digital content be protected regardless until the presence, or not, of the BF was determined.) It was invalidated because the FCC does not have authority to tell the CE vendors how to build equipment. Congress is, however, free to ligislate it if it wants.

[TiVoPony]

Just to re-iterate the request Stephen and I have each made here:

If you're seeing this on ordinary broadcast channels please send either of us a PM with your TSN and any information regarding the source - whether it's cable or not, which channel, which shows, etc.

We have yet to hear anything from the original poster, and would appreciate the opportunity to investigate what he's seeing in more detail than what has been posted here. Please drop us a PM.

Thanks,
Pony

[Lord Nimon]

Or they can buy a $25 buck box to strip the flag off of an analog signal.
Can you tell me more about this device? Is there a Google search term I can use to find more info?

[jmoak]

Are you sure they took back that control? Could be that we just haven't seen any screwups lately.Have you seen any ads like that anymore? Control or not, it looks like they "fixed" it.
They just fixed the size of the Ad for that one screwup.I'm hoping they "fix" this "screwup", too.

[gonzotek]

Are you sure they took back that control? Could be that we just haven't seen any screwups lately. The way the Tivo Reps. described the issue they really did not take away anything. They just fixed the size of the Ad for that one screwup.

Y-ASK
I beleive it was only the Interpreter ad that was centered onscreen and large. It was also an initial large-scale test run of the 'feature', and obviously it had problems (not dissappearing, too large for most people, etc.). TiVo definitely was in control of the use of it, because once the non-disappearing bug came to light, they downloaded a graphic of 100% transparency to the TiVo boxes to forcefully disable the popup.

Found the quote:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2729692&&#post2729692
Based on reports that the Fast Forward Tag for The Interpreter was displaying in places other than over the commercial for that movie, we have published a new version of that tag that is fully transparent (invisible). You can force a connection to the TiVo Service to download the updated tag. This will cause the errant tags to "disappear" from previously recorded programs as well as any future broadcasts that include that tag. We will not use any other tags until we are confident that they will display correctly.

We apologize for the confusion and inconvenience that this caused some customers. As I noted earlier in the thread, the tags are designed to be displayed only over a commercial, and only over a commercial for the product include in the tag. Additional information about these tags can be found in this article on our support site.

[Y-ASK]

I beleive it was only the Interpreter ad that was centered onscreen and large... TiVo definitely was in control of the use of it
Not to be disagreeable but Tivo was not in control. If they were in control, the screwup would have never happened. They took control back by downloading the new "invisible" image. If you go back and read through the entire thread you should see where some of the Tivo folks talk in detail about the how the image is displayed. But really that's for another thread. The problem now is similar in the fact that Tivo has implemented a way for broadcasters to control your Tivo, or should I say the content being recorded on your Tivo. That's all just a simple comparision. When you give up control this is the kind of thing you can expect. Nobody is perfect but Macrovision on my Tivo is another bad idea...

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

The problem now is similar in the fact that Tivo has implemented a way for broadcasters to control your Tivo, or should I say the content being recorded on your Tivo. That's all just a simple comparision. When you give up control this is the kind of thing you can expect. Nobody is perfect but Macrovision on my Tivo is another bad idea...

Y-ASK


TiVo has not implemented a way for broadcasters to control the TiVo. That would be illegal on the broadcasters part.
this is why TiVoPony and TiVoOpsMgr are asking people who see the red flags to contact them so TiVo inc. can follow up on the cause of this "most likely a glitch and not deliberate but definitely illegal if the bits are being set" problem. They need the detailed info to do a root cause analysis and make this go away.

if you see the flags on HBO or a PPV then go ahead and contact them as well. Probably a good idea to get some working correctly data points to work with as well.

[Justin Thyme]

Can you tell me more about this device? Is there a Google search term I can use to find more info?I'd be happy to. I noted them way back in note 46 (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3239351#post3239351) before PVRBlog and the rest of the yahoos joined the party.

Much ado about nothing. It's no different than making backups software or dvd copying. It's simple to do.

As Dan correctly pointed out, these devices are set up to work with SVideo, Composite, or Component connections. If you are connected through some set top box that provides your Tivo signal, you just introduce the box between it and your Tivo. But if you are directly connecting to an antennae or analog cable, then you are going to need a decoder box.

The CGMS filter aka Logic Design filter aka Zorilla filter (http://www.smr-group.co.uk/articles/macrovision_filter_01.html) personally looks much more appealing to me, since it doesn't muck with the video portion of the signal. Many people don't see much of a difference, but whatever- you have an additional choice. Also the CGMS filter doesn't work for certain devices that not only check for the flags (both cgms and macrovision), but also check for evidence of Macrovision signals (color burst phase shifting and AGC fake out pulses). I think if you read the AVSforums thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=529686) I pointed to, it was a panasonic dvr that did that. Others here appear to me to have indicated that replay showstopper checked for not just the bits but this macrovision pollution.
http://www.buyonline.com/images/photos/CT-2-L.jpg
The Sima CT-2 available at amazon, Best Buy Compusa, Ebay...


http://home.cfl.rr.com/filter/Video%20Filter%208.JPG
Logic Design "Zorilla" filter.
Superior though more pricey CGMS controller- it is designed to set the signal, but you can use it to turn it off too. May or may not work for tivo users with all set top boxes.
http://home.cfl.rr.com/filter/

As someone earlier I think maybe rainwater pointed out, it matters how Tivo implemented the restrictions that they are contractually obligated to obey. I don't know what the contract says, but even if Tivo is required to both look at the flags and check for the macrovision color bursting, it won't matter. As Logic Design commented, his thing only cleans up the agc and cgms stuff. Big deal. Get the Sima CT-2 or any of the taiwanese lookalikes and nuke all the macrovision crap out of the signal.

Game over.

But the Studios will probably go many more rounds.

I think the main thing is we need to keep demanding the CE manufacturers produce for us DVRs capable of handling analog signals. Once you go all dgitial- especially two way cablecards- it will get really nasty trying to workaround.

[spankspank]

We have yet to hear anything from the original poster, and would appreciate the opportunity to investigate what he's seeing in more detail than what has been posted here.

Maybe the original poster is hoaxing. He could have put the filter box justin sited (set to copy once) to create this senario on his Tivo.

[davezatz]

Maybe the original poster is hoaxing. He could have put the filter box justin sited (set to copy once) to create this senario on his Tivo.

Well the bug has been reported before... so it's possible he noticed it and went about recreating the scenario. Perhaps he works for a competitor. Wouldn't that be a hoot! Well maybe not... more like a lawsuit. ;)

[k6ef]

I think we should all ditch our units, send them back to TiVo!

There are other choices out there for PVRs these days, including your own PC with MythTV on it. TiVo has become the next Microsoft.

I called TiVo earlier today and requested that they remove the software update from my Tivo since I had not agreed to the change. (You don't get the choice of upgrading or not) They told me that they could not do it. So basically you're stuck paying for a service that you could get for free on less than wonderful equipent that now tells you that you can't keep programs longer than a couple of weeks. I don't know about all of you, but I don't always get a chance to watch a recorded program for quite some time since I travel. Which is the precise reason I got the TiVo in the first place. Now its become nearly useless to me.

The sad thing about all of this, is they didn't have to do it. The FCC and courts haven't okd the Broadcast Flag, so manufacturers don't have to abide by it. So TiVo has implemented something on the Broadcasters orders w/o considering its own users.

What a piece of crap company. I will NEVER support them EVER again.

Im not totally shocked after they told Mac users that they would support them and just whimsically decided to dump them..

[ZeoTiVo]

I think we should all ditch our units, send them back to TiVo!

There are other choices out there for PVRs these days, including your own PC with MythTV on it. TiVo has become the next Microsoft.

I called TiVo earlier today and requested that they remove the software update from my Tivo since I had not agreed to the change. (You don't get the choice of upgrading or not) you agreed to it in the Terms of Service.


They told me that they could not do it. So basically you're stuck paying for a service that you could get for free on less than wonderful equipent that now tells you that you can't keep programs longer than a couple of weeks. I don't know about all of you, but I don't always get a chance to watch a recorded program for quite some time since I travel. Which is the precise reason I got the TiVo in the first place. Now its become nearly useless to me. so how many red flags are on your TiVo shows ?

The sad thing about all of this, is they didn't have to do it. The FCC and courts haven't okd the Broadcast Flag, so manufacturers don't have to abide by it. So TiVo has implemented something on the Broadcasters orders w/o considering its own users. this is not the broadcast flag but the macrovision license that has been discussed in detail in this very thread. oh and BTW the broadcasters are only supposed to send the bits properly. it is the content providers like viacomm that have a license with you as you purchase content from them that TiVo must also abide by as you record that content or face legal action.



What a piece of crap company. I will NEVER support them EVER again.

Im not totally shocked after they told Mac users that they would support them and just whimsically decided to dump them..

what a kneejerk reaction

[davezatz]

what a kneejerk reaction
Yours or his? He obviously read the article on slashdot and came here to get a reaction out of you... it is his first post. ;)

[devious507]

Tivo corp, listen closely, I LOVE my Tivo, but if the BS EVER causes me to miss something I wanted to see I'm DONE, I understand there is a seriously cool implementation of MythTV in a Knoppix live CD that I can put together for a few hundred bucks in hardware, and you can kiss my monthly subscription and any future hardware purchases I may make goodbye.

I am sick to death of companys treating me like I'm some kind of criminal. By honoring these flags you are enabling the content providers to do just that, this makes you as guilty as those numbskulls who thought it was a good idea in the first place.

I can and will do it myself to get around these types of restrictions.

[happierr]

I had it block out Foxes King of the Hill

That is not HBO or PPV....

Tivo has screwed me, I am going to cancle and just build a PC for it.

[dmwelker]

This doesn't bother/worry me as much as it does some people. I only hope they give me enough advanced notice that I have time to watch it before it's deleted.

I also am concerned about whether this can happen to a show I've already changed to "Keep Until I Delete" or will I know this can happen as soon as a show is recorded and I try to change the "Keep Until..." time?

[ZeoTiVo]

Yours or his? He obviously read the article on slashdot and came here to get a reaction out of you... it is his first post. ;)

just the usual making sure the BS gets countered so the FUD loses some of its errr.. FUD. besides I liked his use of "whimsically" bonus points for creative touch


hey happierr - if this really happened to you and if it is FOX then contact TiVoPony and let him no which local provider you have and your TSN. otherwise the FUD above was much better


dmwelker - the flag shows up right away

[rainwater]

TiVo has not implemented a way for broadcasters to control the TiVo. That would be illegal on the broadcasters part.

But yet it is still happening. Whether its an error on the broadcasters fault, intentional or not, or whether TiVo just isn't reading the data correctly, it still is affecting users. Deleting shows automatically by accident is a huge bug. Not a slightly annoying issue, but a huge bug. Although I am going to venture a guess and say that these "glitches' will continue to happen and whether its TiVo's fault or not, it is going to upset users immensely.

[Justin Thyme]

Did anyone check out the traffic for this thread? 41K reads. Nearly all of that in the last 2 days. No wonder TCF is going a little slow.

[TiVoPony]

I had it block out Foxes King of the Hill

That is not HBO or PPV....

Tivo has screwed me, I am going to cancle and just build a PC for it.

Sorry if you've run into this, but do please send me a PM with your TSN and any available information regarding the broadcast. Things such as:

Was it from cable, antenna, or satellite?
One channel or multiple channels?
One program or multiple programs?
Which specific station (call sign)?

This sort of detail can be very helpful in understanding where the issue may lie, and is appreciated.

Cheers,
Pony

[samo]

Maybe the original poster is hoaxing. He could have put the filter box justin sited (set to copy once) to create this senario on his Tivo.
Most ridiculous comment I read on this board for a while. TiVo does not dispute that they "upgraded" series 2 boxes with this "new feature". It is a fact. OP didn't respond to TiVoPony? Who in a hell TivoPony is to the OP? Why does OP have to contact TiVoPony or anybody at TiVo? It is TiVo's problem to find out what went wrong, OP doesn't get paid to help them. To claim that OP bought the filter and set it up to post the hoax is borderline stupid. Although this problem does not affect me personally (I have series 1), I want to mention that there are other PVRs that don't have this "feature" and there is no reason to panic until other vendors start using this flag in the way TiVo does. Vote with your pocketbook and TiVo will respond if they want to stay in business. And for the posters who "owned TiVo since 1997" - check your facts before you post BS here, you are 2 years off. You don't have to pretend to be one of the first TiVo users (like I am :))
to vent your anger here.

[mattman]

I didn't see it mentioned, but I just read the following article on ArsTechnica:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050914-5307.html

Seems to be very reasonable coverage of the subject.

Matt

[hfwarner3]

What a piece of crap company. I will NEVER support them EVER again.

OK. Why don't you send in your TiVo and we will give it to a Katrina victim. Bye bye.

[spankspank]

Most ridiculous comment I read on this board for a while. TiVo does not dispute that they "upgraded" series 2 boxes with this "new feature". It is a fact.


Umm, duh.


OP didn't respond to TiVoPony? Who in a hell TivoPony is to the OP? Why does OP have to contact TiVoPony or anybody at TiVo? It is TiVo's problem to find out what went wrong, OP doesn't get paid to help them. To claim that OP bought the filter and set it up to post the hoax is borderline stupid.

You're funny. I didn't claim anything - I offered maybe...as in could be. The problem is most likely a broadcast glitch or Tivo bugs or PissedMonkey is slow to return. I was simply intriqued that the post before offered a device that could circumvent or create this problem.



Although this problem does not affect me personally (I have series 1), I want to mention that there are other PVRs that don't have this "feature" and there is no reason to panic until other vendors start using this flag in the way TiVo does.



Tivo was left no choice if they wanted to continue to offer network transfers and DVD creation. Any PVR venders offering that?

[gonzotek]

I didn't see it mentioned, but I just read the following article on ArsTechnica:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050914-5307.html

Seems to be very reasonable coverage of the subject.

Matt
I agree, this was a fair article, highlighting both the frustration and anger that some people are feeling (arguably with justification) and the difficult position companies like TiVo are being put in trying to be innovative and something people actually want to pay for while obeying the law and trying to respect copyright owner's rights.

[cwerdna]

I'm calling to cancel my subscription today, as I'm tired of the problems 7.x has given me with my 140- unit that TiVo felt they were too good to need to address, and now this crap. I still have SFU episodes from last season I am waiting to sit down and watch in a row - if I can't guarantee that ability, I'll do without a PVR.

Next step will be Comcast's entry in the market. We'll see how long they last before pathetically eating the proverbial gun as TiVo seems to have just done. At least the monthly cost will be half, with no upfront hardware costs, and .. DUAL TUNERS, IN HDTV, etc. et al. As in, a win-win-win situation.
But hey... in the near future, some of Comcasts boxes will have Tivo software on them too. :p <ducking for cover>

[Mike_J_Smith]

Bah, this is something deal database can easily fix.

[MighTiVo]

http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2186.htm

"Program providers decide what programs will have Macrovision copy protection. Comments regarding the use of Macrovision copy protection should be directed to the copyright holder applying the copy protection. Please do not contact TiVo Customer Support regarding copy protection related issues."

TiVo seems to be saying they have no responsibility for copy protection.

Is TiVo following a law that Macrovision got passed or just abiding by the rules of the contract they signed with Macrovision?

If there is a law then we need to write congress and get it repealed. If it is because of a contract then TiVo is certainly partially responsible...

[ZeoTiVo]

http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2186.htm

"Program providers decide what programs will have Macrovision copy protection. Comments regarding the use of Macrovision copy protection should be directed to the copyright holder applying the copy protection. Please do not contact TiVo Customer Support regarding copy protection related issues."

TiVo seems to be saying they have no responsibility for copy protection.

Is TiVo following a law that Macrovision got passed or just abiding by the rules of the contract they signed with Macrovision?

If there is a law then we need to write congress and get it repealed. If it is because of a contract then TiVo is certainly partially responsible...

they have no responsibility for legal copy protection as decided by the program provider. If you do0 not like the fact that an HBO or PPV show only lasts 24 hours from the point of first watching it then call HBO/Viacomm. The alternative is they could have ditched the macrovision and we could be posting in "TiVo is dying from large legal bills" threads instead. Early model DVRs no longer made or MythTV - an open source no one to sue anyway DVR software - is the only alternative without macrovision I have heard of.

and the fact that TiVo employess are here in this thread getting info and looking into the root cause of this problem shows us that TiVo is acting responsively and responsibly on the matter.

[davezatz]

they have no responsibility for legal copy protection as decided by the program provider.

and the fact that TiVo employess are here in this thread getting info and looking into the root cause of this problem shows us that TiVo is acting responsively and responsibly on the matter.

I agree with those points.

However, it might be good business if Tivo were to rewrite that support article, or even issue a statement, providing more detail in layman's terms to the average Joe who doesn't understand the legal issues or the technology issues - and who probably doesn't read this forum. (We may have gotten almost 50k hits on the thread, but not everyone will read or understand every post... and the number pales in comparison to the readership of BoingBoing, CNET, Engadget, and slashdot. It won't be long before the local news picks it up like they did with the ads.) The current support article as it exists is a almost terse in tone, "hey it's not our fault, and don't waste our time calling us about it."

[ZeoTiVo]

I agree with those points.

However, it might be good business if Tivo were to rewrite that support article, or even issue a statement, providing more detail in layman's terms to the average Joe who doesn't understand the legal issues or the technology issues - and who probably doesn't read this forum. (We may have gotten almost 50k hits on the thread, but not everyone will read or understand every post... and the number pales in comparison to the readership of BoingBoing, CNET, Engadget, and slashdot. It won't be long before the local news picks it up like they did with the ads.) The current support article as it exists is a almost terse in tone, "hey it's not our fault, and don't waste our time calling us about it."


I can agree with that point as well. TiVo is very tight with their documentation. they need the lawyers to loosen up a bit and get some real documentation out in the vein you suggest. it would help with a lot of these issues.

Maybe we should adda forum here where we can rewrite the documentation in a better way and gte mondo reward points from TiVo if they actually use the rewrite, he said half joking.

[icecow]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/tree123xyz/Holly-Aid.jpg

[archer75]

Read The Article People. They Are Not Implementing Macrovision. This Is A Bug.

[MighTiVo]

The current support article as it exists is a almost terse in tone, "hey it's not our fault, and don't waste our time calling us about it."

That is my point exactly. TiVo should explain why they were required to impliment the controls. TiVo is not alone here, macrovision has held eveyone hostage to its licensing agreements. As I understand it, basically to be able to decode and playback macrovision protected content they require implimentation of its controls.

I still believe that there needs to be a fair use bill of rights that will protect consumers from companies like macrovision and content owners from locking up content just because they can.

Simply from a TiVo perspective, they should be free to allow MRV and KUID for any content.

Read The Article People. They Are Not Implementing Macrovision. This Is A Bug.

If by "They" you mean the broadcasters, then you are correct. TiVo has apparently implimented macrovision and the bug seems to be that content is getting misinterpeted as having the macrovision codes to limit the programs recording, transfer, and retention status when it does not.

[ZeoTiVo]

That is my point exactly. TiVo should explain why they were required to impliment the controls. TiVo is not alone here, macrovision has held eveyone hostage to its licensing agreements. As I understand it, basically to be able to decode and playback macrovision protected content they require implimentation of its controls.

I still believe that there needs to be a fair use bill of rights that will protect consumers from companies like macrovision and content owners from locking up content just because they can.

Simply from a TiVo perspective, they should be free to allow MRV and KUID for any content.

:up: :up: :up:

[MickeS]

Originally Posted by MickeS
jmoak, which documented features does TiVo have that are not approved by content providers?

quickly, here's two:

FCC ignores MPAA, NFL; OKs new TiVo feature

TiVo experiments with Internet download service


Damn, I hate being wrong. :o

/Mike

[MickeS]

TiVo has apparently implimented macrovision and the bug seems to be that content is getting misinterpeted as having the macrovision codes to limit the programs recording, transfer, and retention status when it does not.

That you will no longer be able to save HBO shows and movies for more than 7 days is not a bug.

I don't understand why there isn't more focus on this aspect of the story. If TiVo had not implemented this, it wouldn't have been a problem. I understand HBO's motives for it, but I don't understand TiVo's. I guess everything will have to be saved to VCR from now on on pay-channels.

[jones07]

That you will no longer be able to save HBO shows and movies for more than 7 days is not a bug.
.

Content Owners to consumers: If can't find the time to watch HBO's Rome in 7 days then to bad to be you. And don't think about transferring it to DVD for later viewing, that's whats VOD is for :p

[jmoak]

That you will no longer be able to save HBO shows and movies for more than 7 days is not a bug.HBO programs (and broadcast tv programs such as "King of the Hill") were not suppose to be "restricted".
from the Wired article: (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3)
Tivo:
We decided that as long as the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand, consumers would still have the choice. .... when tivo agreed to the macrovision restrictions, this was only suppose to be used on pay-per-view and video-on-demand.
I don't understand why there isn't more focus on this aspect of the story.Because it is supposed to be used on ppv and vod, not hbo or syndicated programs.
If TiVo had not implemented this, it wouldn't have been a problem. I understand HBO's motives for it, but I don't understand TiVo's.
from the Wired article: (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3)
Wired:
You're not legally required to have copy protection. Why not tell Macrovision to stuff it?
Tivo:
That was an option. But if there was no Macrovision license, we would run into a lot of copyright problems with things like remote access and "TiVo to Go" functionality. To innovate and give people more flexibility with broadcast content, we decided it was acceptable to allow content owners to apply protections to higher-value content.
...and the "slippery slope" question:
from the Wired article: (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3)
Wired:
What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.
Tivo:
That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.
"I don't think we would go along with it."

The "Trojan horse" has been pushed through the gate, it seems.

Since there has been no restrictions on my programming so far, I'm game to give tivo the benifit of the doubt. ....for now. (I would probably feel different if I had flags on my tivo now playing list)

All this crap could just be misinterpreted noise or a tv station tech who has no idea what he's doing.

....but what if it's not?

Will tivo "go along with it"? Mathew Zinn does not think so, and he outta know.

The actions of tivo in the next few weeks will tell the tale.

Ok, Tivo. It's your move.

Mike,
No worries man. I'm wrong too many times to count. Happens to the best of us. In the future when it's my turn to be wrong again, be kind, ok?
:o

[starbreiz]

HBO programs (and broadcast tv programs such as "King of the Hill") were not suppose to be "restricted".
.... when tivo agreed to the macrovision restrictions, this was only suppose to be used on pay-per-view and video-on-demand.
Because it is supposed to be used on ppv and vod, not hbo or syndicated programs.



If you ask TimeWarner, they wanted to start deleting episodes of SFU and Sopranos after two weeks:
http://www.allyourtv.com/0405season/news/november/11282004transitional.html

I had another article, in which they actually talked about deleting an episode before the next one aired, but I can't find the link at the moment.

[MighTiVo]

If you ask TimeWarner, they wanted to start deleting episodes of SFU and Sopranos after two weeks:
http://www.allyourtv.com/0405season/news/november/11282004transitional.html

I had another article, in which they actually talked about deleting an episode before the next one aired, but I can't find the link at the moment.

Thanks, great link!

The term being used by the executive is"transitional fair use," and the scenerio laid out goes roughly along these lines:

Viewers would be able to record an episode with their DVR, but there would be a time limit on how long it would be available for viewing. The executive was pushing for an expiration date that coincided with the premiere of the next episode. The consensus of the cable executived was that it needed to be between 2-4 weeks.

Exactly why it is completely reasonable to try to get our voices heard now!

[intercityfirm]

OK I dont exactly agree with the policies of the content providers, but I can understand them. I think it's a sad way for them to try to protect their revenue stream from a very small sector of the consumer base - the Tivo community.

On the retention, 7 days may seem like a long time to some people, but have you thought that there are valid reasons for keeping shows longer?

We live in an age where people while based in the US do work overseas and thats why I and many of my colleagues use Tivo. It's kinda hard to catch the latest episode of CSI in Islamabad, Munich or London to name just a few.

My point here is that, I bought my Tivo and pay my subscription so that I can watch shows when I get back to the US after being overseas for extended periods of up to a month at a time. So I am exteremly frustrated and disappointed in the implementation of the retention whoever may be controlling it.

[ZeoTiVo]

Most ridiculous comment I read on this board for a while. TiVo does not dispute that they "upgraded" series 2 boxes with this "new feature". It is a fact. OP didn't respond to TiVoPony? Who in a hell TivoPony is to the OP? Why does OP have to contact TiVoPony or anybody at TiVo? It is TiVo's problem to find out what went wrong, OP doesn't get paid to help them.

just to reiterate on the TiVo taking responsibility part of all this and needing info on it.
When there is an error such as this between major systems - everyone has to take some responsibility to get it fixed. to simply say TiVo is to go fix the problem without any real world data to do a root cause analysis on is also beyond the realm of reasonable logic. TiVoPony is the guy that can get the real world data of what is ahppening on the box and speficially what broadcaster and local channels are casuing the glitch to the right people. So TiVoPony is to the OP the person who can get the problem he posted about fixed.



I want to mention that there are other PVRs that don't have this "feature" and there is no reason to panic until other vendors start using this flag in the way TiVo does.

can you list these other PVRs please ?

[MickeS]

I guess I'll have to dust off the VCR soon. And just think, when it's all digital there will be even less we can do about it.

But I guess I need to look at the bigger picture here: how would the stars of the shows be able to afford their mansions and vacation homes and Ferraris and jewelry if I was able to keep recordings for longer than a week?

/Mike

[jmoak]

If you ask TimeWarner, they wanted to start deleting episodes of SFU and Sopranos after two weeks:
http://www.allyourtv.com/0405season/news/november/11282004transitional.html

I had another article, in which they actually talked about deleting an episode before the next one aired, but I can't find the link at the moment.Now that would bite big time!

It looks like they don't want you to have a copy of a show (on the dvr you get from them) at the same time that they want you to pay again to watch it on their vod system.

It would certainly be a reason to dump TWC and go to a "less restrictive" provider, that's for sure. ....and maybe that's why that article is a year old and we've heard nothing more about the idea.

Although it's good to see another example in print of how the studios seem more interested in using this technology for vod and ppv.
from your link:
....but it is known that several studios have been eyeing a restriction on the ability of viewers to record video-on-demand and pay-per-view titles.

[kcm]

Why is it more important to be a TiVo apologist at every turn than it is for me to be able to use my PVR the way I *want* to (and did, until I cancelled)? I don't watch shows less than 7 days after first airing.

Cable wasn't supposed to have commercials, health insurance was supposed to be for the consumer's benefit, etc. et al. 'Not supposed to be used in X fashion' is not a valid point.

[ZeoTiVo]

Why is it more important to be a TiVo apologist at every turn than it is for me to be able to use my PVR the way I *want* to (and did, until I cancelled)? I don't watch shows less than 7 days after first airing.

Cable wasn't supposed to have commercials, health insurance was supposed to be for the consumer's benefit, etc. et al. 'Not supposed to be used in X fashion' is not a valid point.

so what would you have TiVo do differently on this subject ?

[starbreiz]

It would certainly be a reason to dump TWC and go to a "less restrictive" provider, that's for sure. ....and maybe that's why that article is a year old and we've heard nothing more about the idea.


*nod* I'm aware of its age. I was just trying to point out that while TiVo says it's only intended for PPV and VOD, providers had other ideas. When I read this article back in December, I wrote letters to them and HBO. I said that back on page 3 or so of this thread, but no one listens to me ;)

[starbreiz]

can you list these other PVRs please ?

ReplayTV has supposedly had this functionality for a year or so. It's just that they haven't had a false positive yet, like what showed up on King of the Hill.

[MighTiVo]

On the retention, 7 days may seem like a long time to some people, but have you thought that there are valid reasons for keeping shows longer?

It is not uncommon to go on vacation for more than 7 days and I have a tendency to keep adult themed programs around a lot longer until I get an opportunity to watch them.

I can guarantee that no fictional drama will be so important to me that I will continue to watch the program with these restrictions. It will come off my season pass list.

If/when these restrictions come into play, perhaps we can orchastrate a universal boycot of the programs and get as many people as possible to delete the season pass, call the cable company, etc.

It worked for DIVX! Not the mpeg4 encoding used to rip DVD but the standard for disposable DVD discs. It died a quick death because people took an active stance against it. There were banners everywhere asking people to boycott DIVX.

[starbreiz]

It is not uncommon to go on vacation for more than 7 days and I have a tendency to keep adult themed programs around a lot longer until I get an opportunity to watch them.

I can guarantee that no fictional drama will be so important to me that I will continue to watch the program with these restrictions. It will come off my season pass list.

If/when these restrictions come into play, perhaps we can orchastrate a universal boycot of the programs and get as many people as possible to delete the season pass, call the cable company, etc.

It worked for DIVX! Not the mpeg4 encoding used to rip DVD but the standard for disposable DVD discs. It died a quick death because people took an active stance against it. There were banners everywhere asking people to boycott DIVX.

*nod*
When I first read the article I posted above, I was in London (on business, sadly, not vacation) for 2 weeks, and my TiVo was recording Sopranos. If they'd been implimenting the 'delete after one week' policy, I would have been screwed. Hence the letter writing campaign :)

To reply to kcm, I'm not trying to be an apologist so much as make the point that this needs to be pushed back to the providers. TiVo is in the position of the middle man.

[MighTiVo]

so what would you have TiVo do differently on this subject ?


Communicate more openly about what the restrictions are, why they are there, and actively lobby congress to allow their system to be used to its fullest potential.

Heck they had the chairman of the FCC on their side, recall when Powell declared TiVo 'God's machine'.

[ZeoTiVo]

ReplayTV has supposedly had this functionality for a year or so. It's just that they haven't had a false positive yet, like what showed up on King of the Hill.

not sure if ReplayTV has the new restrictions out on many DVRs yet.

my question to the other poster though was what alternative DVRs that do NOT have the macrovision restrictions are out there besides older DVRs no longer made. (and I am not trying to knock replayTV with this at all - I mean older DVRs not made in genaral like series 1 TiVo)

[MickeS]

so what would you have TiVo do differently on this subject ?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but couldn't they just go on doing what they were doing before?

ZINN: Macrovision changed its policy. So the question was, Do we want to have a Macrovision license with certain restrictions, or none at all? We decided that as long as the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand, consumers would still have the choice.


I vote "no Macrovision license" now that it's been shown that HBO is apparently using this flag to put restrictions on their material (and unless I missed something, it has not been declared a bug).

And if they have to have a Macrovision license to have TTG and other transfer, then put the restrictions on the transfers. That is not as essential a TiVo functionality as being able to keep your recordings for as long as you want. It's really the forced deletion that bugs me the most here.

Problem solved!

/Mike

[dgh]

Why is it more important to be a TiVo apologist at every turn than it is for me to be able to use my PVR the way I *want* to (and did, until I cancelled)?

Why is it more important that other people support what *you* want to do (with a service you no longer have) than to give their own opinion on a web forum?

[MighTiVo]

not sure if ReplayTV has the new restrictions out on many DVRs yet.

my question to the other poster though was what alternative DVRs that do NOT have the macrovision restrictions are out there besides older DVRs no longer made. (and I am not trying to knock replayTV with this at all - I mean older DVRs not made in genaral like series 1 TiVo)

Good post here:
http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2005/09/tivo_72_os_adds.html


Matt - No, TiVo had a MacroVision license since day one, as have other DVR vendors. Try to find a recording device without it - pretty much every VCR, DVR, DVD recorder, etc, supports MacroVision. It is pervasive.

MacroVision is a family of products, all designed to restrict recording and copying. Most people are familiar with the protection on VHS and DVD to prevent copying. But they branched out to broadcast protection too.

The license originally covered the VHS/DVD copy protection. But a couple of years ago MacroVision changed the license to include the broadcast protection. If you want to license MacroVision, now you have to agree to honor that as well. ReplayTV signed up, TiVo held out for a year but eventually needed to renew their license too and that meant agreeing to the new terms.

MacroVision *dominates* the market, and they use that position to dictate terms. TiVos option would be agree or not support MacroVision - but not supporting MacroVision means no DVD support either, since it is a cascading requirement. To legally support DVDs you need a DVD Forum license, for that you must agree to support CSS, and that requires a MacroVision license. Nice, eh?

But not having MacroVision would draw the ire of all the content providers, and would likely lead to TiVo needing to fight legal battles that would drain them. The same threat is why MacroVision is so pervasive - it is almost a protection racket. License MacroVision and the big boys don't lean on you, as much.

And they would definitely fight TiVo tooth and nail to block TiVoToGo if TiVo didn't honor MacroVision. And just forget about any of them allowing TiVo to have content for broadband delivery.

Not having MacroVision would be business suicide for TiVo.

[kcm]

Why is it more important that other people support what *you* want to do (with a service you no longer have) than to give their own opinion on a web forum?

That's what I'm asking, really. I don't see the benefit to supporting TiVo caving to the industry and implementing this. They used to be customer-oriented, sadly, this is no longer true given recent moves like this. If the best reasons are 'everyone else is' or 'why not, they PROMISE to only use it For Good', forget it.

[MickeS]

Big business and government, joining together to screw the average user, in order to maximize profit and stay in power. What a glorious companionship! :D

/Mike

[Y-ASK]

TiVo has not implemented a way for broadcasters to control the TiVo.

Come on Zeo. Stop with all the semantices BS... It's easier to say broadcasters than to say "the folks who put the flag in the video stream" whether it be the content providers or broadcasters. You know exactly what I mean. Tivo gave control to another group who puts the flag in the video stream. That's the problem. They gave away the control. They could have maintained the control by implementing their own version of DRM by applying the restrictions themselves via the Guide data but that's not what they did. They allow another group to control the restrictions and when something goes wrong everyone supporting Tivo wants to blame the Over The Air signal crap or the broadcaster or the someone who might have intentionally putting a box in-between to cause the issue. How about blaming Tivo for implementing it in the 1st place.

This is one area, even though it has been discussed before, that you still stick up for Tivo and I don't think you should. There is no legal reason nor is Tivo being forced to have their devices react to Macrovision Flags. If you know different then let's hear it and please point to your sources.

Y-ASK

Correction: I guess they would need the macrovision crap if they are to support DVD drives. My mistake. But they really are not being forced to implement it for content being recorded from a Cable or Sat. receiver. If it's a Tivo to Go issue then get rid of Tivo to Go...

[ZeoTiVo]

That's what I'm asking, really. I don't see the benefit to supporting TiVo caving to the industry and implementing this. They used to be customer-oriented, sadly, this is no longer true given recent moves like this. If the best reasons are 'everyone else is' or 'why not, they PROMISE to only use it For Good', forget it.


so you would see TiVo not doing macrovision, not having DVD players or burners adn not having TiVoToGo. Simple solution for you - go buy a Series 1 TiVo

[dgh]

I don't see the benefit to supporting TiVo caving to the industry and implementing this. They used to be customer-oriented, sadly, this is no longer true given recent moves like this.

I haven't seen a significant change in TiVo's level of customer orientation yet. TiVo has been concerned about - and tried to work with - the industry for a very long time. Perhaps you just never noticed it before, but before the first TiVo shipped, a TiVo VP described it as "the Holy Grail for Madison Avenue". TiVo was never exclusively focused on the viewer.

[MickeS]

Here's what I don't get... they say they have to have the Macrovision license to keep TTG and DVD burning - but doesn't the Macrovision copy protection, when implemented, PREVENT these things? Or am I missing something here?

/Mike

[ZeoTiVo]

Come on Zeo. Stop with all the semantices BS... It's easier to say broadcasters than to say "the folks who put the flag in the video stream" whether it be the content providers or broadcasters. You know exactly what I mean. Tivo gave control to another group who puts the flag in the video stream.

This is one area, even though it has been discussed before, that you still stick up for Tivo and I don't think you should. There is no legal reason nor is Tivo being forced to have their devices react to Macrovision Flags. If you know different then let's hear it and please point to your sources.

Y-ASK


TiVo did not give the content providers control to put in the macrovision bits either. The legal system and busines law did. The license you agreed to by getting HBO, or ordering PPV gave them the right to. in short we gave the content providers the right.

TiVo had a choice to play along or go up against macrovision. consdiering TiVo is not a big conglomerate and has no money to throw around, the choice was obvious for TiVo. I never said their was any legal reason I just implied legal coercion.

so I ask again to anybody

what would you have TiVo do differently ?

[dt_dc]

Here's what I don't get... they say they have to have the Macrovision license to keep TTG and DVD burning - but doesn't the Macrovision copy protection, when implemented, PREVENT these things? Or am I missing something here?That's the point ...

A feature like TTG or DVD burning may expose Tivo to a copyright lawsuit from studios. By respecting flags that can disable these features ... Tivo can simply say to the studios "if you don't want your stuff burned to DVD simply mark it appropriately ... it's on you not on us". End of lawsuit.

[Y-ASK]

what would you have TiVo do differently ?
I would have them setup every standalone Tivo that records an analog signal (ala capture card method) to ignore the Macrovision flags on everything it records. Macrovision is embedded in the signal now with no video corruption (unless you run it through your VCR). Just have the box ignore it.

Does anyone think Tivo would be sued if they did this. I mean hell they've been doing it for how long now? It's only been recently that they implemented the box reacting to the flags.

Y-ASK

[mearlus]

Have an 'easter egg' that ignores macrovision ;)

I agree, they were given a choice. But not a real choice, pretty much a "agree to this" or shutdown shop and give up.

An easter egg would be cool though ;)


TiVo did not give the content providers control to put in the macrovision bits either. The legal system and busines law did. The license you agreed to by getting HBO, or ordering PPV gave them the right to. in short we gave the content providers the right.

TiVo had a choice to play along or go up against macrovision. consdiering TiVo is not a big conglomerate and has no money to throw around, the choice was obvious for TiVo. I never said their was any legal reason I just implied legal coercion.

so I ask again to anybody

what would you have TiVo do differently ?

[JYoung]

Does anyone think Tivo would be sued if they did this. I mean hell they've been doing it for how long now? It's only been recently that they implemented the box reacting to the flags.




Replay did get sued for their commerical advance and their Internet show sharing between boxes and the Planet Replay website got shut down because for legal action. And they had a smaller user base.


So yeah, I think TiVo would get sued.

[Justin Thyme]

Bah, this is something deal database can easily fix.Precisely. Content execs have a choice. If they want to escalate and force deletion of Sopranos after 7 days, it will motivate enough people to use bypassing boxes like I mentioned or for situations where that is not convenient, to have their boxes hacked.

I've heard it speculated that people will be too lazy to use such approaches. That's nonsense. It is directly proportional to the extent that the Content Execs have pissed off consumers. In many western countries with strong IP laws, when you buy your dvd player, the salesperson will ask you if you would like it "serviced" for $20. What that means is that they will have another company replace a ROM so that region coding is disabled.

Nearly everyone that I know of in NZ and OZ opt for that- sure it voids the warranty- no one cares. The box is severely broken to them with the warranty.

But countries with IP law enforcement are in the minority. Profit maximization schemes for the studios need to be applicable to the rest of the world that does not have strong IP laws. With the Internet distribution of video, any leak anywhere means that the problem is fundamentally unpluggable.

If content execs want to escalate this, it will be a full blown guerilla war, involving chinese and brazilian manufacturers and web sites. There will be millions of units using software that obeys no licensing, FCC, or service agreements. The borders will be as porous to "upgrade chips and boards" as they are to drugs and people.

I am not optimistic, but whichever way it goes, the consumers are going to be able to get the functionality they desire. The studios have a responsibility to attempt to maximize their profit, and are accustomed to having maximum leverage. This is not such a situation, but they may well have to have their Vietnam to learn the limits of their leverage.

Certainly, it would have been much better for the Admirals to have listened to Billy Mitchell demonstrating for them in graphic detail that their illusion of battleship invulnerability was a dangerous fantasy. The paper I sited previously from Microsoft engineers presented at an ACM conference dealing with DRM (http://www.bearcave.com/misl/misl_tech/msdrm/darknet.htm) is one such warning. Content execs can ignore the opinion of such Billy Mitchell's at their peril.

[starbreiz]

Followup on BoingBoing: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/15/could_noise_cause_a_.html

[jmoak]

from the boingboing "followup":
TiVo says that the two programs that got this flag received it as the result of a transmission error -- noise that was "misinterpreted as a copy protection signal."Poor fellas, they forgot to link to where we could verify that!
As the closest I've seen was ...from Tivopony's post in this thread: (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3243066#post3243066)
megazone:
You realize this was most likely a transmission glitch and not something the broadcaster was doing deliberately.
Tivopony:
We do believe this to be the case, and if anyone else sees this happen please do send Stephen or myself a private message with your TSN and any available information about the broadcaster. Thanks.
...
As others have noted, we have seen the random occurance of this before. And in each case there's been a glitch or a bug lurking somewhere. Nothing malevolant.

Believe blogs without verifiying???? Do I look like I ride in a "SwiftBoat" or enjoy "Moving On" to you???
;)

[Justin Thyme]

Oh great. If it's going to get quoted, then Bob- I suggest you edit that typo- It's malevolent.

(No one in the audience jump me- I hate grammar cops too- and I freely admit my notes are more filled with typos than the average TCF post- but if it will be quoted... Maybe no big deal though. This little storm in a teacup is looking to be slowing down. We are only up 50K hits today. Dang- more "Views" than the entire Mcwhiner thread in less than 4 days.)

[ufo4sale]

Can someone setup a poll to see how wide spread the problem actually is? As far as I can tell only two or three people have seen these red flags.

[Y-ASK]

Replay did get sued for their commerical advance and their Internet show sharing between boxes and the Planet Replay website got shut down because for legal action. And they had a smaller user base.


So yeah, I think TiVo would get sued.
I realize that anyone can pretty much sue anyone, but Tivo has been ignoring Macrovision for the last four years or more. Don't you think if they were going to be sued they would have been sued by now? I'm just thankful that the 1st video capture card I purchased did not have any of the macrovision crap setup. Unfortunately it seems that most of the newer cards have it.

Y-ASK

[Aflat]

Has anyone else looked at the flip side of this? Sure Macrovision is now enabled. Don't you see what that gives them? You can download a Netflix movie, that can't be ripped to DVD, moved via TivoToGo, and deletes itself after a certain amount of days. Sure there will be workarounds, but not easy ones for the average user, which makes it a justifiable market.

Sounds like step 1 in the Netflix/Tivo coop to me. Of course, it sucks for things like regular shows, but it appears to be a bug/glitch, who knows what.

[dgh]

Don't you think if they were going to be sued they would have been sued by now?

No. TiVo is still small and the long-term threat isn't well understood - especially since TiVo does try to work with the companies that the technology threatens. It's often better to wait to see what the real impact is. It makes for better cases and larger awards and saves time fighting things that only seemed like threats. And mutual agreements can be more productive than court cases.

[rainwater]

Has anyone else looked at the flip side of this? Sure Macrovision is now enabled. Don't you see what that gives them? You can download a Netflix movie, that can't be ripped to DVD, moved via TivoToGo, and deletes itself after a certain amount of days. Sure there will be workarounds, but not easy ones for the average user, which makes it a justifiable market.

Sounds like step 1 in the Netflix/Tivo coop to me. Of course, it sucks for things like regular shows, but it appears to be a bug/glitch, who knows what.

I don't subscribe to Netflix so I could care less about that. I don't have HBO so I could care less about that.

TiVo says this is for PPV's and VOD ONLY. Obviously, its not just for that. TiVo also says they may have interpreted the noise incorrectly for which people who know how it works have laughed themselves silly. Why can't TiVo just clarify the situation already?

[jmoak]

TiVo also says they may have interpreted the noise incorrectly for which people who know how it works have laughed themselves silly. boingboing has said that as well, but I can't find where tivo has stated that. Can you point me to a link where tivo says they may have interpreted the noise incorrectly?

Thanks!

[dgh]

Why can't TiVo just clarify the situation already?

As far as I can tell from the thread, the 1 to 3 people who have seen a problem haven't contacted TiVo with any details. If that trend continues, I don't expect to see a lot of additional clarity real soon.

But speaking of clarity, how much less could you care? (Yeah I know, I'm the last person to talk about typos but "I could care less" always makes me wonder: how much? :))

[Dan203]

I realize that anyone can pretty much sue anyone, but Tivo has been ignoring Macrovision for the last four years or more. Don't you think if they were going to be sued they would have been sued by now? I'm just thankful that the 1st video capture card I purchased did not have any of the macrovision crap setup. Unfortunately it seems that most of the newer cards have it.

Actually that's incorrect. TiVo has had a Macrovision license, and played by their rules, since day one. Macrovision just decided to change the rules. Previously all they required was that TiVo detect the Macrovision signal and recreate that same signal on output. Now they are forcing TiVo, and other DVR manufacturers, to adhear to these new forced deletion rules or lose their license. And unfortunately the Macrovision licenses is interlocked with other licenses that TiVo needs to function as a business.

Dan

[Y-ASK]

TiVo has always had a macrovision license and TiVo has definitley not ignored macrovision. macrovision seems fine with the pace TiVo is complying with the realtively new agreement on broadcast bits. you are starting with incorrect assumptions and leaping to wrong conclusions

Man you piss me off sometimes with some of your interpretations :). I meant that my TIVO DEVICE ignored (didn't do anything with) the embedded Macrovison Flags for the last four or more years and it's only recently they set the software up to deal with the Flags. You're not understanding what I am saying and your incorrect interpretations are leading you to argue wrong conclusions. Now get with the program please... :eek:

Y-ASK

[Y-ASK]

Now they are forcing TiVo, and other DVR manufacturers, to adhear to these new forced deletion rules or lose their license.
And if they lose their license that would cause... what?

I already answered your 1st response when I responded to Zeo, that makes Two mis-interpretations. Must be my fault.

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

Man you piss me off sometimes with some of your interpretations :). I meant that my TIVO DEVICE ignored (didn't do anything with) the embedded Macrovison Flags for the last four or more years and it's only recently they set the software up to deal with the Flags. You're not understanding what I am saying and your incorrect interpretations and leading you to argue wrong conclusions. Now get with the program please... :eek:

Y-ASK

sorry I deleted my post as Dan203 stated it much better just above you.

as for what they would lose - they would imediately have to disable any DVD playback on any Tivo with a DVD and no valid license.

they would get there butts sued silly over TTG and anything else macrovision could think of /convince interested parties to sue over.

[dgh]

that makes Two mis-interpretations. Must be my fault.

Y-ASK


If you've read Dan's post including "Macrovision just decided to change the rules. Previously all they required..." then I don't understand the distinction you're making either.

[rainwater]

As far as I can tell from the thread, the 1 to 3 people who have seen a problem haven't contacted TiVo with any details. If that trend continues, I don't expect to see a lot of additional clarity real soon.


I don't mean clarify these actual instances. But to clarify what the flag can be used for, who can set the flag (I'm sorry but Joe Schmoe at a local affiliate shouldn't be able to click a button and have shows deleted automatically), etc. From what I can see, TiVo hasn't devised a very good plan on how to handle these flags. If it is only for VOD and PPV, then the software itself shouldn't allow it on other shows. I have no problem using this for PPV and VOD, but the software should exclude it from "accidentally" happening on other shows.

[dt_dc]

And if they lose their license that would cause... what?Didn't Tivo's general counsel answer this?http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3

(Wired) You're not legally required to have copy protection. Why not tell Macrovision to stuff it?

(TiVo general counsel Matthew Zinn) That was an option. But if there was no Macrovision license, we would run into a lot of copyright problems with things like remote access and "TiVo to Go" functionality.

[MickeS]

How about this: TiVo gives the user the option of having EITHER TTG and DVD-burning and all the other transfer stuff WITH Macrovision, OR disable it and be able to record and save any show indefinitely. ;)

I know what I'd end up doing, as soon as I saw my first show being tagged for deletion by a broadcaster.

[Shaolin Dogs]

If it is only for VOD and PPV, then the software itself shouldn't allow it on other shows.

But it's not just for VOD and PPV. That can be inferred from Zinn's hardly reassuring answer from the same Wired article:

[WIRED: ]What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.

[ZINN: ]That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.

The higher-value content Wired is referring to is <<VOD and PPV>>. Zinn could have said, "If the flag is applied to something other than higher-value content, we will NOT go along with it." But he didn't.

He's hoping "content owners" will get the message about the perils of limiting consumer flexibility if consumers don't buy PPV. But given the industry's singular focus on locking down consumer devices like the PVR and every other statement in this thread about the relative power of the copyright industry and TiVo, I'm thinking they're not going to "get" that message.

[topolski]

TiVo,

DRM is the publisher's attempt to enforce electronically what they could not get legally.

**** I HAVE THE RIGHT **** (me) to record these shows for my personal use. The content owner (not me) has the right to distribute it, make money on it, etc..

I was going to buy a second unit for the bedroom, but now I'll buy a Snapstream unit instead.

I'm not buying from someone who treats me like a crook. :down: :mad:

[MickeS]

Doesn't Snapstream have the new Macrovision protection too? I assume they can't be without it either, if it's like TiVo describes it?

[Y-ASK]

If you've read Dan's post including "Macrovision just decided to change the rules. Previously all they required..." then I don't understand the distinction you're making either.
The distinction I was trying to make is that previous versions of the Tivo software just recorded the macrovision that was embedded in the analog video stream. The Tivo (software) did not do anything with it. It recorded it and it passed it on. Now Tivo has changed the way the software works and is now doing something with the Flags. The macrovision flags now trigger a software reaction which did not happen before the updates.

Ok so the rules have changed. But do I really need Tivo to Go, Remote Access or a DVD player or burner on my Tivo? That's really the only need for the macrovision license isn't it?

Oh well, I guess well see what becomes of this.

Y-ASK

[Justin Thyme]

boingboing has said that as well, but I can't find where tivo has stated that. Can you point me to a link where tivo says they may have interpreted the noise incorrectly?

Thanks!I am sure that Stephen's team appreciates all the assistance they are getting from Brussels and the Blogmeisters with their armchair debugging opinions. Of course facts have some utility too, but none of the bloggers I have read have taken the responsible step of urging users to contact Tivo with their TSN if they see this phenomenon.

Anyway, Dwight Silverman reported (http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2005/09/copy_protection.html) the test phase "noise problem" on his blog. Apparently, it is his phone interview quote of what Denney told him. But Denney is a marketing not technical guy so who knows if his shorthand "noise" remark means that it is "like" a noise problem or what. Anyway, if you look at the direct quote, Denney was talking about a problem that was resolved before the software was released, not what test had revealed about the current problem.

"During the test process, we came across people who had false positives because of noisy analog signals," he said. "We actually delayed development (of the new TiVo software) to address those false positives."So what does it mean? The Brussels DRM conference guys were guffawing about lousey Tivo software misinterpreting a Macrovision checksummed field. Of course, the "OS company" engineer who made the remark was unidentified and paraphrased. Whatever- Great thinking guys. But consider the scenario of what you do when you get damaged field. Do you assume content not protected? Or do you take the conservative position of assuming it is protected until you get an authenticated field prove that it is unprotected? In that scenario and with that school of thought, noise/ slightly invalid field= false positive, and the Tivo software would hardly be considered buggy. Not desireable by many customers, but not buggy. And Denney indicated he was NOT of that school of thought, and that there should be no false positives.

So much for more of Cory's idiotic notes (http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/15/could_noise_cause_a_.html). What do you expect- if he were even remotely interested in the facts, he could have picked up citations here on where he could learn for himself that the macrovision flags occupy two bits, not one. Perhaps Cory in his expert engineering opinion didn't stop to consider how the 4 states documented on the tivo site could get stored in one bit.

But like I said, these guys aren't interested in reading and thinking. Just ranting and writing and striving to be read.

[ZeoTiVo]

**** I HAVE THE RIGHT **** (me) to record these shows for my personal use.

the sony betamax case went that way, but it never said how long soemthing could be kept after recroding it. this falls into the archive discussion as well that was discussed in the case and did not seem to be soemthing the court wanted to include in its ruling

bottom line there is no specified right on time duration so the content providers are making their own times. it seems like this will all go back to court at some point for more clarity

[dgh]

Ok so the rules have changed. But do I really need Tivo to Go, Remote Access or a DVD player or burner on my Tivo?

Well that's up to you, and I don't (yet) use any of them myself, but I think TiVo feels it needs those to sell more TiVos. In the most recent TiVo vs cable DVR thread, these features are mentioned in about half the replies as a reason to prefer a TiVo so TiVo marketing may be on to something.

[Justin Thyme]

The CNet article (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-5863529.html) was updated with a correction note:
Correction: This story originally misrepresented the interoperation of TiVo's operating system and the TiVo application with technology from Macrovision. The problem reported by TiVo users comes as a result of "false positives" on the part of TiVo and not any flagging of broadcast TV content by Macrovision. Boy I sure am glad they set the record straight. Too bad there is no such thing as "flagging of broadcast TV content by Macrovision.", and the Macrovision "technology" being discussed here is 2 inert bits.

The blogmeisters have an excuse for their crackpot information. (I have even better excuses. :o ) But we expect more from CNet. This is just plain shoddy journalism.

[Dan203]

Ok so the rules have changed. But do I really need Tivo to Go, Remote Access or a DVD player or burner on my Tivo? That's really the only need for the macrovision license isn't it?

You may not have a need for such features, and some of them may not even apply to the particular unit you're using, but this is a blanket license for TiVo. They either have to take it or leave it. They can't selectively turn it on/off depending on the unit or the users particular preference.

Dan

[Justin Thyme]

Doesn't Snapstream have the new Macrovision protection too? I assume they can't be without it either, if it's like TiVo describes it? Not that I have read, but they may have changed their minds. This article states why. (http://gadgetfetish.blogspot.com/2005/08/what-vista-media-center-will-do-to-3rd.html) Since they are not a macrovision licensee, Snapstream is not contractually obligated to honor the flags as Tivo is. Microsoft on the other hand is working very closely with macrovision, and they are embedding support for macrovision, CGMS and other protections deep into Longhorn/Vista. If Snapstream software doesn't get certificatin as conforming to its PVP-OPM standard, their software will be denied access by the operating system to video input and output services necessary for their product. Remember the specification with Microsoft example code I pointed to earlier? They are specifically verifying that they do not talk to any software that isn't certified as supporting the macrovision flags.

Evan light (of Gadget Fetish (http://gadgetfetish.blogspot.com/)) wrote the following about the situation with Snapstream and other software products:
Chris’ point leads into one of my favorite rants: we will all be at the mercy of whatever DRM restrictions that the content providers choose to levy upon us. MCE (and future incarnations) will merely propagate these restrictions to the end user. SnapStream, SageTV, and other 3rd party DVRs will be limited by the DRM impositions of the *operating system* and, if Microsoft does their job “right”, there will be no way around it for any 3rd party DVR that operates under Vista. Snapstream's author had a response to the Vista situation in a blog entry on the Snapstream site entitled: "Supposedly my Company is Ruined..." (http://devblog.snapstream.com/?p=13)

His point goes to Evan's "if Microsoft does their job right" caveat. Sure- that's liable to be big enough to drive a truck through for at least a few years- and not everyone is going to upgrade from XP anyway. Yeah- no one doubts that it is possible to bypass Microsoft authorized drivers and modules. But it makes for a much more difficult engineering task though.

Sure does make you want to rush out and buy a new MCE with Vista, doesn't it. And Apple is going to be in the same boat as MS. Linux anyone?

No safe harbor there either. Even if they could hide out on a user friendly enough to be competitive linux box, they would face a withering storm of MPAA lawsuits.

Not pretty.

[HeartBurn Kid]

I've never been more glad to have a Series 1 Tivo. :)

[samo]

my question to the other poster though was what alternative DVRs that do NOT have the macrovision restrictions are out there besides older DVRs no longer made. (and I am not trying to knock replayTV with this at all - I mean older DVRs not made in genaral like series 1 TiVo)
All of the Dish DVRs I have allow me to store PPV indefinitely and/or record them to DVD. Of course on other pay or network programming I can do the same as well. I can't speak for cable DVRs, I don't have one, but I'm sure Dr. Strange will pop into this thread sometime and he tested and/or owns just about every DVR known to mankind, so we may get definitive answer. :)

[starbreiz]

All of the Dish DVRs I have allow me to store PPV indefinitely and/or record them to DVD.

Gee... just like TiVo before this little glitch on what.. two programs?

[Justin Thyme]

Oh how insensitive of you. It was PBS for cripesake. Ok maybe it was restricted to whatever godforsaken village simonalope lives in. But do you have any idea how homocidal a 2 year old will get if anyone deletes her Elmos?

All of the Dish DVRs I have allow me to store PPV indefinitely and/or record them to DVD. I guess that means your behavior is the same as what 99.9999% of Tivo owners see on their machines. But it ain't gonna last folks (http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,64309,00.html). Once those PPV shows start using the macrovision flags, it doesn't matter if you have dish, direct or a cable box- every macrovision licensee must honor those flags. HBO only began making volume use of those flags since last June. More info here (http://www.hbo.com/corpinfo/cgmsafaq.shtml). Apparently, Dish users haven't yet been able to enjoy the full benefits of this new service yet.

Folks have been complaining about the CGMS-A flags being used on their carriers since last summer. That is, if your provider has gotten around to "upgrading" your STB yet, your DVD copies of HBO should be copy once, and you should be totally blocked from recording any on demand HBO content. Some people have dvrs that respect the CGMS and Macrovision flags, others do not. Most don't notice because HBO allows copy once- only when they go to copy from the DVD will they get hammered.

EG:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=555115
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=415716

Samo- no sweat when Dish Network "fixes" your problem of not getting the delete after 7 days feature- just use the remedies I listed earlier.

Oh whoops. I forgot. You are wired in to Dish since you fell for using their PVR, so you can't introduce a copy flag blocker.

Tough break. Good thing you still haven't forsaken your Tivos.

PS. Looks like people are getting bored of this subject. Only 10,000 hits on this thread today.

[samo]

Justin, I realize that this thread is very long and you obviously missed my original post and replied to my reply to the reply on this:
Although this problem does not affect me personally (I have series 1), I want to mention that there are other PVRs that don't have this "feature" and there is no reason to panic until other vendors start using this flag in the way TiVo does.
The trend is and will be to use the flags, but for now only TiVo implemented software "fix" that enforces them due to TTG. If other vendors start doing this, then it will be time to panic and rase hell, but it is not happening in near future.
Market forces and bottom line are much stronger than some ridiculous ideas. If I knew that I can't keep PPV longer than few days, I would be less likely to order it. If HBO starts putting flags on the shows, I'd be less likely to subscribe to HBO and so on. If bottom line suffers, flags will go the way of PC dongles.
Oh whoops. I forgot. You are wired in to Dish since you fell for using their PVR, so you can't introduce a copy flag blocker.
Don't have to. Since Dish allows me not to accept software update, I always wait few weeks and read the forums before I do. So theoretically I can keep the old software if new one introduces the flag. :)