Macrovision BS?

[rainwater]

You may not have a need for such features, and some of them may not even apply to the particular unit you're using, but this is a blanket license for TiVo. They either have to take it or leave it. They can't selectively turn it on/off depending on the unit or the users particular preference.

Dan

There are other DVD Recorder/DVR combos on the market that support Macrovision. And I am not aware of one that auto deletes your content. I know the Toshiba will restrict you from writing content to DVD, but they do not delete it off of the disk (the RD-XS52, etc).

From what I have read, its not just for VOD and PPV. Why TiVo would state that earlier I don't know.

[mec1991]

I've never been more glad to have a Series 1 Tivo. :)

You and me both, brother :)

[ZeoTiVo]

The trend is and will be to use the flags, but for now only TiVo implemented software "fix" that enforces them due to TTG. If other vendors start doing this, then it will be time to panic and rase hell, but it is not happening in near future.
right you are on this, and my original question on other DVRs was centered more around any that do not have a macrovision license at all. I do not know how the provisons in the macrovison license are stated but I imagine there must be some clause on time to be compliant with the new bits and so forth.

to expand on what you said, TiVo went forward to compliance on the new bits as that was part of their pitch to the NFL and FCC on interent file sharing feature - any content provider could block it if they so desired. Also I am sure some internet download providers want to secure their stuff as well.
Market forces and bottom line are much stronger than some ridiculous ideas. If I knew that I can't keep PPV longer than few days, I would be less likely to order it. If HBO starts putting flags on the shows, I'd be less likely to subscribe to HBO and so on. If bottom line suffers, flags will go the way of PC dongles. I actually dropped HBO/cinemax years ago becasue I found them of little value even then. I almost got HBO again after having a TiVo due to the original series but I had pleanty to watch anyway, being a sci-fi fan and stayed with the more economical Netflix since I could get the HBO on DVD from netflix at some point anyway. Never did a PPV, the cost was too high and the movies too old. I tried movielink but they delete a movie after 24 hours of watching. That is too short a time. if the providers start real short time limits on the content then they will see a sharp drop off in sales.

Don't have to. Since Dish allows me not to accept software update, I always wait few weeks and read the forums before I do. So theoretically I can keep the old software if new one introduces the flag. :)
Hope that works for you, again I wonder what the macrovison provisions are, especially on equipment owned by a company and leased out. Since TiVo requires a hack to stop updates or you have the series 1 that does not get software updates - TiVo inc is sitting on solid legal ground

[Justin Thyme]

I've never been more glad to have a Series 1 Tivo. :)
You and me both, brother :)And some people like the warmth of sound that tube radios produce. The series one is a classic, and eminently hackable. I might like to buy one off Ebay some time, not to use, but to display next to my 8 bit computers from the 70s.

But better on account of this easily bypassable feature forced down our throats by the studios? You must be joking.

Maybe 7.2 had a bug with allowing non PPV channels to use flags, let's not lose site of the fact that 7.2 allows you to do some really remarkable things you can't get from any other mass market DVR. Least of all on a box you can buy for $50, and that is easy enough for your grandmother to use.

Me- I like the fact I can use a terabyte server as an enormous video jukebox for the entire home. Let's see- the count is about 750 shows now- mostly movies like Shrek, Forest Gump, Guys and Dolls, Notorious, Pulp Fiction.

Heeheehee. Right now, I could pull the plug on my service for a month and I wouldn't notice. Already, I have severely reduced my extra packages. I don't need them anymore.

Try that on a Series one or a Dish Network PVR.

You can't, and you never will. So if you really really hate those flags, go ahead- cut off your nose to spite your face.

Postcript: Interesting thing about that jukebox. The affect on my viewing pattern is that I realize how great those treasured movies really are- my favorites are the prestige epic films. I am looking forward to the HD DVDs especially classic widescreen movies like cleopatra, ben hur, and lawrence of arabia. I have the remasterred anamorphic ben hur, but 380 lines on the vertical makes for some pretty awful jaggies.

Personally, I think jukeboxing will increase not decrease demand for content. That point is actually not OT, but crucial what is driving the phenomenon we saw with this macrovision flags bug. The SD versions I have that have been panned and scanned are like advertisements into the studio's enormous back catalog of films. You play them over and over because you can and they enjoy the "It's a wonderful Life" phenomenon of becoming treasured classics Because they are repeated. What you find is that you end up wanting more, and you are willing to pay. But you are only willing to pay for it because you were able to repeat play it many times on a whim.

[davezatz]

And some people like the warmth of sound that tube radios produce. The series one is a classic, and eminently hackable. I might like to buy one off Ebay some time, not to use, but to display next to my 8 bit computers from the 70s.
I've been wanting to pick up an old acoustic coupler modem off of ebay to remind me of the ASCII porn we used to download as teenagers. Ah the good ole days of 300 baud and line noise.

[starbreiz]

oh my god... i feel so young. my first was 2400 baud. mmm BBS's. and Legend of the Red Dragon :P

I've been wanting to pick up an old acoustic coupler modem off of ebay to remind me of the ASCII porn we used to download as teenagers. Ah the good ole days of 300 baud and line noise.

[stevel]

300 baud? Luxury! I started with 110 baud...

[dgh]

oh my god... i feel so young. my first was 2400 baud. mmm BBS's. and Legend of the Red Dragon :P

And I feel old. I remember how 110 baud on an ASR 33 teletype was SO much better than typing cards at the card punch machine and then taking the deck to computer room so it could read them in and spit out pages of error messages.

[ZeoTiVo]

ah the regression of a thread |||:::::::.................


I had a 300 baud modem into a midrange at work, you had to get it to pick dial tone and dial then throw a switch to have the computer start "talking"

I would talk about the begining of the Universe but it would break my beta agreement with a higher power :eek:

[billbo1970]

I'm still waiting to see what happens on this issue in general, if the networks will or will not abuse this 'feature' in the latest TiVo software update...

IF they do, and start setting these delete flags...

We should all agree to boycott an episode of the show.... not the whole season, why bite off your nose to spite your face? But, if we are able to spread the word and there is a dramatic decrease in viewership of a popular show on a particular night, our voices would be heard loud & clear... and we would really need to get the word out there, not only to TiVo users, but users of all DVR/PVR/sofware & anyone who cares about the 'industry' encroaching on our fair use rights!

Bill

[ZeoTiVo]

I'm still waiting to see what happens on this issue in general, if the networks will or will not abuse this 'feature' in the latest TiVo software update...

IF they do, and start setting these delete flags...

how about we just call the FCC since it is illegal for OTA broadcasts to do that. What the OP posted about is a glitch. What he reported and then ducked out on is something that is not legally allowed to happen.

HBO on the other hand ...............

[billbo1970]

how about we just call the FCC since it is illegal for OTA broadcasts to do that. What the OP posted about is a glitch. What he reported and then ducked out on is something that is not legally allowed to happen.

HBO on the other hand ...............


It may be illegal, but isn't macrovisions revoking of our fair-use rights also illegal? Aren't we entitled to backup a VHS/DVD copy for our kids to ruin... instead of being forced to use the original? How long would it be tied up in the courts? How long has DRM been debated over? Hmm... HDTV still seems to be sketchy as well...

HBO: If I'm paying a monthly fee to watch their shows, I should be able to watch it whenever I want to, not when they want me to.

Bill

[ZeoTiVo]

It may be illegal, but isn't macrovisions revoking of our fair-use rights also illegal? Aren't we entitled to backup a VHS/DVD copy for our kids to ruin... instead of being forced to use the original? How long would it be tied up in the courts? How long has DRM been debated over? Hmm... HDTV still seems to be sketchy as well... I agree, wish I had the money and years to get a good court case going. Seems like the courts do not see it the same way. Macrovision seems unconcerned about legal challenges. I doubt Congress is going to pass a law requiring all content to be unprotected for fair use, since we all know what would really happen and indeed does happen already on a smaller scale despite the DRM.

HBO: If I'm paying a monthly fee to watch their shows, I should be able to watch it whenever I want to, not when they want me to.
Bill the fact you are paying specifically for premium channels like HBO means there is a contract involved. I have no idea what the terms are but I bet the lawyers for Viacomm know every detail of it. I stopped using premium channels a long time ago, never saw value in them or PPV.

[rainwater]

how about we just call the FCC since it is illegal for OTA broadcasts to do that. What the OP posted about is a glitch. What he reported and then ducked out on is something that is not legally allowed to happen.

HBO on the other hand ...............

Call them all you want, but Tivo should be smart enough to ignore these flags on these channels. Then there wouldn't have been this issue to begin with.

[starbreiz]

It may be illegal, but isn't macrovisions revoking of our fair-use rights also illegal? Aren't we entitled to backup a VHS/DVD copy for our kids to ruin... instead of being forced to use the original? How long would it be tied up in the courts? How long has DRM been debated over? Hmm... HDTV still seems to be sketchy as well...

HBO: If I'm paying a monthly fee to watch their shows, I should be able to watch it whenever I want to, not when they want me to.

Bill

I'm with ya on the HBO bit. Though it does tick me off when my friends download the latest episode of Sopranos and I'm paying $25/mo for HBO. So I can see where they'd want to protect the content from the kiddies who will distribute it.

With the digital age and DMCA and such, there seems to be a fine line between potential for infringement and fair use anymore. Damn those Macrovision bastards...

[gonzotek]

I'm still waiting to see what happens on this issue in general, if the networks will or will not abuse this 'feature' in the latest TiVo software update...

IF they do, and start setting these delete flags...

We should all agree to boycott an episode of the show.... not the whole season, why bite off your nose to spite your face? But, if we are able to spread the word and there is a dramatic decrease in viewership of a popular show on a particular night, our voices would be heard loud & clear... and we would really need to get the word out there, not only to TiVo users, but users of all DVR/PVR/sofware & anyone who cares about the 'industry' encroaching on our fair use rights!

Bill
The flipside to boycotting the DRM'd/flagged content would be supporting 'free' content. There are independent producers with some really good stuff that would love to have a market, and with the ability of 7.2 to download internet content, we can 'vote' with our remotes for content that doesn't come with restrictions. If there was an internet-distributed tv series that was even marginally interesting to me, and it came in some form of unencumbered video(no flags, copies and transfers freely allowed), I would pay a reasonable fee for it to arrive effortlessly on my TiVo. And by effortlessly, I mean just point my remote and tell it I want a season pass of a show that happens to come from the internet instead of traditional sources.

[starbreiz]

Question:
PVRBlog is reporting that TCM programming has used this flag: http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2005/09/drm_on_ifc.html

This certainly isn't over the air like the FOX programs... same supposed noise?

[Y-ASK]

Since Tivo is so wonderful at collecting data, I would suggest that Tivo run a quick poll everytime a program was recorded with DRM set to restrict. You choose to record the show and they bring up a window or text message informing you of the limits of the recording. Then they would allow you to vote your dis-pleasure:

Yes I want to record and I accept the limts put on the content.

Yes I want to record but I am not happy about the limits put on the content.

No, I refuse to record this program and the content providers can pound sand.

Tivo could make this information public and we'll see what we see. It's one way of seeing how effective a boy-cott would be...

But since Tivo has such a small percentage of the DVR market their data might not be worth anything to the powers that be any way...

Y-ASK

[Justin Thyme]

The flipside to boycotting the DRM'd/flagged content would be supporting 'free' content. There are independent producers with some really good stuff that would love to have a market, and with the ability of 7.2 to download internet content, we can 'vote' with our remotes for content that doesn't come with restrictions.....And by effortlessly, I mean just point my remote and tell it I want a season pass of a show that happens to come from the internet instead of traditional sources.Hear hear.

Give me enough mainstream content, and they can have all the money I give my Carrier now.. I'll gladly dump them in favor of it.

[Dan203]

Well rebroadcasting any TV content you don't own is illegal, so it would be impossible for a 3rd party company to setup a download service that included "mainstream content" without getting permission from the original broadcaster first. Which would probably be close to impossible.

Dan

[starbreiz]

Well rebroadcasting any TV content you don't own is illegal, so it would be impossible for a 3rd party company to setup a download service that included "mainstream content" without getting permission from the original broadcaster first. Which would probably be close to impossible.

Dan

Impossible? Soapcity.com offers subscriptions to download pretty much every soap opera for $10/series/month. Clearly they got rights permissions from various broadcasters. The only caveat is that the downloads aren't available until it's finished airing on the west coast. So when I lived on the east coast, I had to wait until 7pm to get Days of Our Lives. I quit subscribing when I moved to California and got a TiVo.

They use Microsofts DRM and it checks for a license online, so you can only watch the content for 30 days after the original airing. Unless they put up special content, like the first episode of Days ever.

[Justin Thyme]

Akimbo was able to line up the following content.
CNN
BBC-all programming
Cartoon Network
History Channel
National Geographic
Turner classic Movies

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Cinemas/Blocks/2002/08/01/quix769.jpg

[mec1991]

And some people like the warmth of sound that tube radios produce. The series one is a classic, and eminently hackable. I might like to buy one off Ebay some time, not to use, but to display next to my 8 bit computers from the 70s.

But better on account of this easily bypassable feature forced down our throats by the studios? You must be joking. [/SIZE]

Justin,

I bought my TiVo for one reason only - to record and watch television programs when I want to. You know, "television your way". Period, end of story. I don't give a rat's hinder about the things so many people here use it for. I won't bore you with my dislike of the Series 2 picture quality nor with my opinion of the company's attitude toward Mac users. I am already leaving TiVo anyway, even without them interfering with basic usage like being able to watch recorded programs when I want to, not when the content provider expects me to. It is a culmination of so many little things, not any one in particular. When I bought my first in 2001 (IIRC) I thought the company was the greatest in the world. To say my opinion has changed would be somewhat of an understatement.

Thanks for the video filter info earlier in this thread.

The Series 1 (lifetime) has served me well and it will continue to be used if only for program listings for the new Sony to record.

[megazone]

he used to until anyone who spoke the real story was labeled a fanboy as if that sKeep it real Megazone :up: PS zonereyrie=megazoneHeh... Yeah, what ZeoTiVo said basically. The volume here is so large, and the noise level is overwhelming. I got sick of the kneejerk idiots and the tinfoil hat crowd that think everything is an evil conspiracy. Plus I find vBulletin highly annoying. I don't like boards that mark things as read for me - if I pop in to check something and don't have a lot of time to read everything, when I come back later the board's decided to mark everything as read just because I popped in for a second. Too frustrating to bother with for me.

Besides, there are plenty of people here to help out the rational folks, but not many people who monitor the newsgroups, mailing lists, blogs, etc. So I subscribed to a slew of them - and now I'm using Google's Blog Search to monitor the blogosphere for posts about TiVo. So I've been swooping in out of the blue to comment and answer questions. :-) I set up an RSS feed to notify me when anyone mentions TiVo. ;-)

Basically if you look at the list of groups, sites, blogs, etc on this page (http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=tivolovers) - I participate in just about all of them, or at least keep an eye on them.

[megazone]

There is NOT any DRM on my two replaytv units!!!!!!!Yes there is. And there has been for years. ReplayTV even stated so openly. Just because you're ignorant of it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Before they introduced IVS/SendShow they added support for MacroVision limits. The stated, more than once, that their software would block the sharing of any shows properly flagged. It was part of their defence over the IVS lawsuit too. Since no one ever really used it, end users just didn't know it was there.

ReplayTV agreed to the updated requirements a year before TiVo did, back in 2003. And my understanding is they updated their support a while back. But, again, you'd never know it was there unless/until it got tripped. The only reason TiVo users have noticed this appears to be a bug of some kind.

TiVo seems to have expanded their MacroVision code in 7.2, but the basic flag limits have been in there since at least 5.x, since the DVD burning units would recognize the flags to forbid burning a recording to DVD. Again, it was in there, but you didn't see people complaining - because no one uses it.

I think a lot of people might be surprised to find out what copy protection and DRM exists in the devices they own, it just isn't an issue for most folks with standard use.

[megazone]

yeah, zone's like the resident guru in the livejournal tivolovers community. i'm somewhat surprised he doesn't frequent this site.Well, I actually maintain TiVo Lovers (http://www.livejournal.com/community/tivolovers/) so I try to keep on top of things. :-)

[azitnay]

Guess we know what topic it takes to bring zoner out of the woodwork :).

Ack -- now I'm subscribed to this mess.

Drew

[funkyjunkman]

I recently read an article in the Economist about 'new media' and it had a fantastic quote about the consumer's relationship to DRM. It was “If consumers even know there's a DRM, what it is, and how it works, we've already failed,” says Peter Lee, an executive at Disney. Article Here (http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4342418)

So now I've been automatically upgraded to software version 7.2 and I couldn't be more disappointed that people are already having problems with "false positives" (that's Tivo's official line). Example Here (http://flickr.com/photos/aaronh/43813090/)

Tivo software bug or not, I did not buy a DVR years ago with a lifetime subscription that could arbitrarily delete my recorded content based on the will of the content provider. This is not what I paid for.

[dgh]

“If consumers even know there's a DRM, what it is, and how it works, we've already failed,” says Peter Lee, an executive at Disney.

I guess everyone failed then because everyone I know knows where DRM can be found. The overall article though is better than that one quote makes it sound. They're talking (in that part) about proliferation of and confusion over codecs and DRM schemes.

[starbreiz]

MegaZone posted last night on lj (but I didn't see it here), that someone is reporting that their PVR picked up on the same flags on the same FOX shows and it wasn't a TiVo: http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/67465#14370254

[ZeoTiVo]

MegaZone posted last night on lj (but I didn't see it here), that someone is reporting that their PVR picked up on the same flags on the same FOX shows and it wasn't a TiVo: http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/67465#14370254

The thing is, I was sure that the DRM was only active because of the new ATI Multimedia Center software I had updated just days before the new season of the Family Guy started (This past Sunday). I've never had another television show trigger a broadcast flag before, so I'd be surprised if it was the video card.

Then again, the only shows that I'd tried to record with that new ATI MMC was The Family Guy and the Simpsons, the same programs that this article refers to, so we could still be screwed. I'll know more when I start recording next Sundway with the old ATI MMC software back on my PC. this is a TV record card in a PC and an update of the software used to setup the recordings. I bought an ATI card and software three years ago or so and it definitely had the macrovison license in it for DVDs then as it would pop up when I would have my TV on to see a DVD palyed on the PC. it cut off the payback in case the live composite connection was a VCR I guess. had to keep the TV off until the DVD was playing and then turn on the TV :rolleyes:

Point is a lot of the PC cards already recognize macrovision as well. The only real alternative I have heard to a macrovison enabled device is the open source MythTV running on open source Linux. Wonder if they will become a target like napster at some point though open source is an ephemeral target.

[ZeoTiVo]

Guess we know what topic it takes to bring zoner out of the woodwork :).

Ack -- now I'm subscribed to this mess.

Drew

yah, those slashdot links bring in all kinds of posters ;)

[Justin Thyme]

... The only real alternative I have heard to a macrovison enabled device is the open source MythTV running on open source Linux. Wonder if they will become a target like napster at some point though open source is an ephemeral target.
My wild ass guess/ take on the subject: I think the strategy of the content owners is that the high value content will be in a protected form that to read without a license for the encryption would be theft of technology as well as a violation of DRMA. If they attempted to read content protected in that form, the armies of lawyers would go after all sites distributing MythTV software or source code.

It would get pretty ugly. It may be like killing ants with sledgehammers, but the studios are prepared to hire ant colonies of lawyers. As the studios have said, they are prepared to spend hundreds of millions in such legal fees to protect billions in revenue.

Personally, I don't think the bulk of Myth developers will want to go the in-your-face-DeCSS route. There is no reason to. They can just write it to record 720P or SDI source signals, or play unecrypted HDTV files from the net. How the user gets those files, a 720P component input, or those gets the hacked SDI output signals from an HD Cable or satellite box would be up to someone else.

But it's just a wild ass guess.

[ZeoTiVo]

I looked at MythTV a little bit out of curiosity. the builds already include DVD player which alone has to break DeCSS on Linux. then they tout the DVD ripper included in the build. seems MythTV is already at In-your-macrovison-face mode. and in confirmed violation of DMCA already with that DVD part of the code.

[dgh]

In my opinion, this is a breach of contract in that it is a limitation of the Tivo servie, not an enhancement.

The agreement in my manual from 2000 says "TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time, change, add or remove features..." That seems to cover just about anything.

[megazone]

yah, those slashdot links bring in all kinds of posters ;)I hope you're not implying I read slashdot. ;-)

Slashdot stopped being interesting years ago, too many zealots posting just to hear themselves rant. The initial articles themselves might be interesting, but I find I hear about the same things through other channels anyway. The discussions on the posts are rarely worth looking at Too many zealots. It is easier to have a calm conversation with RMS about Free Software vs Open Source than to get rational comments on /. (And yes, I have had such a conversation with RMS, at Arisia a few years ago.)

Seems like to many people think the world is black and white and haven't had to make decisions due to the realities of business, like it or not. You don't always get to do what you want, and sometimes you have to do things you dislike just to be able to do something you want to do. When you're running a business you have to be responsible to your employees, shareholders, investors, and, yes, the customers. And that means *all* customers, which often means royally pissing off *some* customers. Any time you do A instead of B, someone gets pissed. Any time you do C because you have to to do D, someone gets pissed. If you try to make everyone happy, you never do anything - and then someone gets pissed.

Personally I encourage everyone who is so worked up over this to switch to MythTV. Sell your TiVo and donate the money to charity if you want to take the moral high road. I *guarantee* that it won't hurt TiVo in the long run. Frankly, if you're reading this forum, you're highly unlikely to be in TiVo's core market.

If TiVo ever does something that interferes with my usage, then I can switch as well. Maybe one of the Sony HDTV CableCard DVRs. Or there is a sweet Samsung Blu-ray/DVR that is supposed it hit next year. Heck, I might get one of those just because, anyway. Or I'll build my own MythTV box, it isn't hard for me. But so far I've seen no reason to freak out or ditch TiVo. It still does everything I got it for - more actually - and I don't see that changing. I don't buy into paranoid conspiracy theories. For the past several years people have picked on one thing after another as 'a sign of the end' - and they've all been ********. When TiVo announced the DVD-R units would allow MacroVision limits on what could be burned, people said that was it for them. Two years later, doesn't look like it. When TiVo put DRM on TiVoToGo a lot of people went apeshit - that hasn't hurt them either, the average user doesn't care.

All the chicken littles are welcome to panic and drop their TiVos because the sky is falling. Personally, I have better things to do that freak out over just another glitch that will be resolved and forgotten like all the others. I may be a geek, but I"m also not arrogant enough to think that the kinds of things geeks get rabid about - like DRM - will matter to Joe and Jane Consumer down at Best Buy. And once this is patched, Joe and Jane will probably never know it is there in the first place. Over a million stand alone TiVo users - and a handful of people have even seen this. Yeah, that's very significant...

Frankly I doubt most of the people threatening to ditch their TiVos will do it. Oh, sure, some will. But most won't - just hollow threats and chest thumping. Very easy to do from behind a keyboard.

I have been disgusted by some of the blogs I've seen in the past week. People posting false information, either deliberately or just out of ignorance. People posting inflamatory statements for no obvious reason other than to stir things up, you'd think they worked for Fox News. Especially the folks who insinuate this is part of some big conspiracy between TiVo and the entertainment industry - some folks need more tinfoil in their hats.

People need to calm down and see how this is resolved, instead of gathering the pitchforks and torches at the drop of a hat.

Of course, I'm probably just being naive expecting level heads and a rational response. I've been online since 1989, I should really know better by now.

[mec1991]

Frankly I doubt most of the people threatening to ditch their TiVos will do it. Oh, sure, some will. But most won't - just hollow threats and chest thumping. Very easy to do from behind a keyboard.

Snip, snip...

People need to calm down and see how this is resolved, instead of gathering the pitchforks and torches at the drop of a hat.



Well, in my case the Sony DVR is on pre-order. I cannot see that company rolling over and playing dead like TiVo has.

And hey, storming the castle is too much fun

:)

[piper]

Well, in my case the Sony DVR is on pre-order. I cannot see that company rolling over and playing dead like TiVo has.

And hey, storming the castle is too much fun

:)

I hate to break it to you but Sony are absolutely the very worst company for restricting consumer choice and limiting what you can do with their products.

[dmdeane]

I have been disgusted by some of the blogs I've seen in the past week. People posting false information, either deliberately or just out of ignorance. People posting inflamatory statements for no obvious reason other than to stir things up, you'd think they worked for Fox News. Especially the folks who insinuate this is part of some big conspiracy between TiVo and the entertainment industry - some folks need more tinfoil in their hats.

People need to calm down and see how this is resolved, instead of gathering the pitchforks and torches at the drop of a hat.

Of course, I'm probably just being naive expecting level heads and a rational response. I've been online since 1989, I should really know better by now.Yep. The level of lunacy and paranoia is beyond belief. Not to mention the name calling. One fellow on Slashdot even compared us TiVo Community Forum folks to women suffering from "battered wive's syndrome"; it never occurs to these people that the reason we aren't complaining about being abused by TiVo is because we haven't been "abused" by TiVo. But if we fail to buy into their little conspiracy theories, that makes us either "in denial" or "part of the conspiracy", take your pick.

[gonzotek]

I hate to break it to you but Sony are absolutely the very worst company for restricting consumer choice and limiting what you can do with their products.
Yep. They have a ton of content, which they'll be very interested in protecting.

[ZeoTiVo]

I hope you're not implying I read slashdot. ;-)


Of course, I'm probably just being naive expecting level heads and a rational response. I've been online since 1989, I should really know better by now.

Man I was just kidding you about reading slashdot and For that I got a good, well reasoned post from you :D

PS - I hit the arpanet in early 80's at school and I can still recall a forum on Rock Music where people just went off on each other if they dared bad mouth certain bands, etc.. Guess that evolved into slashdot. Less filling, more rant.

[jmoak]

I have been disgusted by some of the blogs I've seen in the past week. People posting false information, either deliberately or just out of ignorance. People posting inflamatory statements for no obvious reason other than to stir things up, you'd think they worked for Fox News.Awww, come on mega....

Doncha' know?

All the kewl kids hate Tivo!:cool:

The quickest and easiest way to drum up traffic on your blog is to trash Tivo. The more inflammatory you are, the more likely you are to be quoted by "Variety" or "The Hollywood Reporter".

You're looking for truth and integrity??? They're blogs, fer cripes sake!!

;)

[megazone]

Well, in my case the Sony DVR is on pre-order. I cannot see that company rolling over and playing dead like TiVo has.
Sony has the same Macrovision license as everyone else. And, if you look at Sony's track record, they love DRM and proprietary formats designed to keep people from copying and sharing content. Remember, Sony has Sony Music and Sony Pictures - as well as MGM, etc. For music they've clung to ATRAC for a long time, one reason is that it locks you into limited options - mostly their's. They developed the 'MagicGate' Memory Sticks right off to put copy protection on the media. They've gone after anyone who breaks the copy protection for the PlayStation. They backed region coding and CSS on DVD.

They're the leading developer on Blu-ray, which will have the most advanced DRM/copy protection of any media. Not only are they adopting AACS, but they've added 'BD+' and a ROM mark. BD+ will allow them to update the DRM. So if someone cracks it, like with CSS, then they can release discs with an updated DRM and you have to update your player or it won't play the new discs. That's one of the reasons the entertainment industry is swayed towards BD from HD-DVD - HD-DVD only went with AACS, BD did better on DRM.

Sony doesn't have to cave into the entertainment industry - they *are* the entertainment industry!

[megazone]

You're looking for truth and integrity??? They're blogs, fer cripes sake!!

;)Yeah, I know, a lot of "Look at me! Look at me!" The best way to get attention is to be an extremist and piss people off.

[ZeoTiVo]

Well I for one think they should just loose all DRM and let us copy whatever we want whnever we want. It should be content our way! I should be allowed to send HBO shows to any friend I choose, I should be allowed to record movies or copy them off of DVD and store them for ever. Any device that stands in my way I will knock over and vow death and destruction for. They should be manly and stand up to the content providers, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

arrrh, it be talk like a pirate day ;)

[kcm]

Well I for one think they should just loose all DRM and let us copy whatever we want whnever we want. It should be content our way! I should be allowed to send HBO shows to any friend I choose, I should be allowed to record movies or copy them off of DVD and store them for ever. Any device that stands in my way I will knock over and vow death and destruction for. They should be manly and stand up to the content providers, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

arrrh, it be talk like a pirate day ;)

you realize you're not helping the image of TiVo fans, nor your stance, nor your reptuation.. right?

[ZeoTiVo]

you realize you're not helping the image of TiVo fans, nor your stance, nor your reptuation.. right?


I be no caring for come what may, it's the pirate's life for me. So heave ho me matey's and push those 15 dead men off me chest of pirated movies and break out a flask of rum. We sail for the bit torrent, and devil take the hind most.

[rainwater]

Well I for one think they should just loose all DRM and let us copy whatever we want whnever we want. It should be content our way! I should be allowed to send HBO shows to any friend I choose, I should be allowed to record movies or copy them off of DVD and store them for ever. Any device that stands in my way I will knock over and vow death and destruction for. They should be manly and stand up to the content providers, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

arrrh, it be talk like a pirate day ;)

Actually, I travel a lot and I just want to have my shows on my TiVo when I get home. I don't want to make DVDs, I don't want to transfer shows to my PC, etc. But TiVo is apparently moving away from this possibility, so I'm not sure how useful it will be for me in the future if they start letting more and more stations use this flag.

[ZeoTiVo]

Actually, I travel a lot and I just want to have my shows on my TiVo when I get home. I don't want to make DVDs, I don't want to transfer shows to my PC, etc. But TiVo is apparently moving away from this possibility, so I'm not sure how useful it will be for me in the future if they start letting more and more stations use this flag.


arrrh , the govt scoundrels at the FCC will nay allow regular channels to fly that flag. It be only the privateers like HBO or Cinemax that trick you into signing in blood when youse hands over your treasure to them. They waves the contract at them scoundrels in the FCC and makes a deal to fly the privateers flag and be able to do as they will with their own content. It be not young Jim TiVo moving away from anything, it be the big rich colonials looking to lay claim to all they can before it be too late.

I have sailed many a day and yet to see this privateer flag, but I steer clear of the HBO waters and the like. There be monsters there.

[rainwater]

arrrh , the govt scoundrels at the FCC will nay allow regular channels to fly that flag. It be only the privateers like HBO or Cinemax that trick you into signing in blood when youse hands over your treasure to them. They waves the contract at them scoundrels in the FCC and makes a deal to fly the privateers flag and be able to do as they will with their own content. It be not young Jim TiVo moving away from anything, it be the big rich colonials looking to lay claim to all they can before it be too late.

I have sailed many a day and yet to see this privateer flag, but I steer clear of the HBO waters and the like. There be monsters there.

I don't even subscribe to any pay channels. However, it scares me that TiVo has given the power to all channels to use this flag. I have no guarantee that my TiVo will not delete my shows. And TiVo has yet to clarify the situation which is more scary than anything that has happened so far.

[ZeoTiVo]

I don't even subscribe to any pay channels. However, it scares me that TiVo has given the power to all channels to use this flag. I have no guarantee that my TiVo will not delete my shows. And TiVo has yet to clarify the situation which is more scary than anything that has happened so far.


then ye be sailing in safe waters , young Jim TiVo has not given any power to anyone they merely be following the treasure map laid out by macrovision and the FCC clonials tell the pay channel privateers they can enforce their license all they want. The FCC colonials also tell the regular channels they be not having tribute enough to fly the privateer flag. That seems clear enough har, har..

Once young Jim TiVo finds out what bilge rat be betraying the captain, they will keel haul him and scuttle his ships.

[ZeoTiVo]

http://www.talklikeapirate.com/partykit/tlapdbanner2.gif (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html)

[Y-ASK]

Crap Zeo!!! STOP IT!! you're cracking me up, I'm at work for christ sake, I'm gonna piss my pants....~~~~~~~~~~~

OhOH!

[pgogborn]

you realize you're not helping the image of TiVo fans, nor your stance, nor your reptuation.. right?
I reckon ZealotTiVo has shown that not every TiVo fan is a humorless member of a cult so narrowly focussed that they do not know what is going on in the rest of the world.

I reckon that helps the image of TiVo fans.

[dgh]

OhOH!

TMI!

you realize you're not helping the image of TiVo fans, nor your stance, nor your reptuation.. right?

Good thing you cancelled your TiVo service last week so you don't have to be associated with us goofballs. :)

Now walk der plank!

[rainwater]

then ye be sailing in safe waters , young Jim TiVo has not given any power to anyone they merely be following the treasure map laid out by macrovision and the FCC clonials tell the pay channel privateers they can enforce their license all they want. The FCC colonials also tell the regular channels they be not having tribute enough to fly the privateer flag. That seems clear enough har, har..

Once young Jim TiVo finds out what bilge rat be betraying the captain, they will keel haul him and scuttle his ships.

I'm glad you find it funny. However, the day channels start enforcing macrovision, TiVo is in a world of trouble. They could atleast be honest about what the macrovision flags will be used for. Up until now they have not been honest. Saying it was only for PPV and VOD was an out right lie as far as we know at this point.

[ZeoTiVo]

I'm glad you find it funny. However, the day channels start enforcing macrovision, TiVo is in a world of trouble. They could atleast be honest about what the macrovision flags will be used for. Up until now they have not been honest. Saying it was only for PPV and VOD was an out right lie as far as we know at this point.

Define channels for us, matey. They we can talk specifics till then you are just lobbing FUD over the port bow and all that be doing is scaring folks needlessly.

and TiVo will honor legal macrovision flags and work to eliminate incorrect positives like this whole thread started with.

Aye, and try a sense of humor on while you are at it.

[rog]

Did you hear about that new pirate movie? It's rated arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

What's a pirate's second favorite letter of the alphabet? Eyyyyyyyeeeeeee.

[dgh]

I'm glad you find it funny. However, the day channels start enforcing macrovision, TiVo is in a world of trouble.

Arrrrg! If they be broadcast, then that be the day them channels join us pirates!

Let me jog yer recollekshin:

There is! anything broadcast over public airwaves is prohibitied from containing any copy protection.

[lajohn27]

I'm glad you find it funny. However, the day channels start enforcing macrovision, TiVo is in a world of trouble. They could atleast be honest about what the macrovision flags will be used for. Up until now they have not been honest. Saying it was only for PPV and VOD was an out right lie as far as we know at this point.

Ok... ok ok ok.. enough uninformed panic around here. Geez.. you'd think the ship was going down or something..

Truth is.. section 1201(k)(2) of the Copyright Act forbids broadcasters from putting Macrovision on any other programs. Broadcasters are stations that broadcast in the air.. not cable networks, not HBO etc.

Since everyone is claiming this problem on the Simpsons.. it's clearly a foul-up. Its actually not allowed for broadcasters to protect their programs thusly..

So.. jeez.. lighten up already. This is not (even if it were all the conspiracy everyone seems to think it is) .. the end of the world..

Arggggg..

John

[rainwater]

Ok... ok ok ok.. enough uninformed panic around here. Geez.. you'd think the ship was going down or something..

Truth is.. section 1201(k)(2) of the Copyright Act forbids broadcasters from putting Macrovision on any other programs. Broadcasters are stations that broadcast in the air.. not cable networks, not HBO etc.

Since everyone is claiming this problem on the Simpsons.. it's clearly a foul-up. Its actually not allowed for broadcasters to protect their programs thusly..

So.. jeez.. lighten up already. This is not (even if it were all the conspiracy everyone seems to think it is) .. the end of the world..

Arggggg..

John

Hey. I agree with you that its a bug somewhere. However, the TiVo software shouldn't allow this to happen since it knows what your cable lineup consists of. The fact that TiVo doesn't respond with any facts or clear things up is what upsets me. Allowing these flags to get in and delete recordings is not acceptable regardless of who's 'fault' it is.

[dgh]

However, the TiVo software shouldn't allow this to happen since it knows what your cable lineup consists of.

Arrrg, we've covered that one too.

1. TiVo don't always know. Us pirates do crafty things.
2. Liability ifin they get er wrong and ignore a good tag.

Besides, matey, is it TiVo's job to enforce the FCC rules on the broadcasters???? Arrg! That just makes extra work for our little money-losin ship!

When stuff be new there be glitches. Yer rekolect that banner that overran a show? I'm thinkin they'll all work this here one out too.

[geekboy2000]

IMO, I don't care if the cause of the flag to be set is the service provider's fault, either accidentally or deliberately. I don't care if TiVo's hand was forced in some way by Macrovision. All I know is that I send my service fee to TiVo, and in the relatively short time that I've had the box (about 7 months), the service is headed in a direction that's more restrictive - not more flexible. I see one red flag, the box is gone. In fact, I'd be surprised to see TiVo as a company still in business in another year, unless they wake up and listen to the subscribers.

[pendragn]

In fact, I'd be surprised to see TiVo as a company still in business in another year, unless they wake up and listen to the subscribers.
Do you think they aren't listening to their subscribers? What would you have them do that they aren't doing right now? Their hand is forced. You only need to look at ReplayTV to see what happens if you try to fight the content producers.

tk

[MickeS]

Truth is.. section 1201(k)(2) of the Copyright Act forbids broadcasters from putting Macrovision on any other programs. Broadcasters are stations that broadcast in the air.. not cable networks, not HBO etc.

So you'd be fine with not being allowed to keep any of your recordings made from cable channels for longer than 7 days, since it's legal? Clearly, this is not just about PPV and VOD like TiVo has claimed. They have no way of stopping this if it turns out that, say FX or Bravo decided to put this time restriction on the recordings, since TiVo has agreed to the Macrovision license.
What will happen is: A) viewers will be pissed off, B) they will remain pissed off but the majority will watch anyway at a greater inconvenience, C) networks will feel triumphant that they only lost 5% of the audience, but gained control of the content, D) I will let my TiVo collect dust and only watch what I have unwatched on it right now, then start "renting" shows elsewhere instead. ;)

/Mike

[rainwater]

Do you think they aren't listening to their subscribers? What would you have them do that they aren't doing right now? Their hand is forced. You only need to look at ReplayTV to see what happens if you try to fight the content producers.

tk

Their hand is not forced. They could of implemented Macrovision in a much different way than they have. They hacked in Macrovision support without having any support for issues such have already occured. In my opinion is just bad planning/development more than anything.

[megazone]

In fact, I'd be surprised to see TiVo as a company still in business in another year, unless they wake up and listen to the subscribers.
blah blah blah, this chorus has been sung for YEARS now. And if you only had the box 7 months, that was AFTER the Macrovision announcement, so the info was out there BEFORE you got the box.

What exactly are the subscribers going to do? Most of them are definitely not going to build their own DVR. And the other commercial DVRs have the same Macrovision license and need to support the same flags. So it'd be rock stupid to dump TiVo for another product when you'd get the same restrictions and less functionality.

But then, I never attribute that much intelligence to the knee jerk crowd.

TiVo isn't worried because it will be a level playing field on this note. If everyone has to implement this then it isn't a disadvantage to TiVo. And once they fix this problem most users will never know it is there.

[rog]

Their hand is not forced. They could of implemented Macrovision in a much different way than they have. They hacked in Macrovision support without having any support for issues such have already occurred. In my opinion is just bad planning/development more than anything.

I don't share all the negative views going around here, mostly because I think all of this fuss started over a bug -- nothing more sinister than that.

However, rainwater has a point here. TiVo apparently didn't do a very good job with their implementation.

<speculation> It has even been suggested that real Macrovision flags have checksums. It doesn't appear that the checksums are being put to use on the TiVo. </speculation>

A bug this serious needs to be fixed, and quick. A representative from TiVo would ideally speak up and tell us this is being fixed.

[dgh]

A representative from TiVo would ideally speak up and tell us this is being fixed.

At this point with three reports (I think) and apparently none of those three providing any info to TiVo (as far as I can tell) we may have a while to wait before we even know what "this" really is.

Has anyone actually seen the problem and contacted TiVo as requested earlier in the thread?

[rainwater]

At this point with three reports (I think) and apparently none of those three providing any info to TiVo (as far as I can tell) we may have a while to wait before we even know what "this" really is.

Has anyone actually seen the problem and contacted TiVo as requested earlier in the thread?

I think its pretty obvious that there's a problem. TiVo should atleast clarify what the Macrovision tags are to be used for and how they are going to prevent them from being abused. I don't think it will be that difficult for TiVo to contact some people that have seen this problem as it appears to be reported by more than just people on this forum. At this point we have to assume anything can randomly get deleted at any point.

[dgh]

So far I've seen three and the only one with a screen shot was for suggestions.

At this point, from this thread, it's not clear that the likelihood of this problem higher than any of these:

Cable failure
Rain fade
Guide error
Affiliate Failure
Power Failure
Disk Crash
Kid with the remote
Adult with the remote
Mysterious season pass failure
IR failure
Serial port failure
Interruption by news/weather event
Flood
Fire

Of course we may learn more in the future, but I'm not worried yet. So far it looks like you may be more likely to die driving home to watch your show than to find it deleted when you arrive.

[jmoak]

Argggg... Me tivo plunders me rum when me ain't lookin', Arggg...

Thad's one evil tivo, dere ...... Arggg!

:piratesmiley:

[MighTiVo]

So far I've seen three and the only one with a screen shot was for suggestions.

At this point, from this thread, it's not clear that the likelihood of this problem higher than any of these:

Cable failure
Rain fade
Guide error
Affiliate Failure
Power Failure
Disk Crash
Kid with the remote
Adult with the remote
Mysterious season pass failure
IR failure
Serial port failure
Interruption by news/weather event
Flood
Fire

Of course we may learn more in the future, but I'm not worried yet. So far it looks like you may be more likely to die driving home to watch your show than to find it deleted when you arrive.

Well it apparently showed up on Media Center PCs as well...
http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/67465#14370254
Just this past Sunday, I was attempting to tape The Simpsons and The Family Guy (Giggiddy-Giggiddy-Goo) and had constant DRM issues exactly as mentioned here. There was a difference though in that I was using my ATI Radeon All-In-Wonder 8500 on my Windows PC, not a Tivo. I was pretty pissed to be prompted that the programs were view only though. Even the portions that did record were repeated frames with V-Sync problems. Very coincidental that I tried only these shows.

I had recently updated my ATI Multimedia Center and video drivers so I figured that the new version (9.08, which is newer than 9.10 somehow) had new DRM features. I uninstalled that crap as quickly as I could.

I heard long ago that Replay had some Macrovision issues, but my 5040 remains the only way I can record content off a DVD so I can return a movie with no late fees when I haven't gotten around to watching a rental.

With TiVo's built in DRM which keeps you from sending content to other households I really don't understand why I can't timeshift a rental DVD just like I can timeshift a PPV. It would also be a great way to reduce wear and tear on those kids DVDs. The TiVo DVD platform should be simple to use to rip a DVD so you can play it back from the hard drive. While there may be the oppotunity for breaking copyright law doing this, there is a substantial legal use as well. A simple warning should be sufficient, heck even encode your TSN on it incase you do start distribution.

[jmoak]

With TiVo's built in DRM which keeps you from sending content to other households I really don't understand why I can't timeshift a rental DVD just like I can timeshift a PPV. It would also be a great way to reduce wear and tear on those kids DVDs.Because doing so would be just wrong. Thanks to the wonderful dmca we don't have the right to "back up" rental dvd's (we don't own them), even if all we want to do is just watch them once, then delete them.

You'd have to rip the dvd, simply strip out the extra vob info in the files using any of a number of shareware programs found using google, then upload the clean mpeg to your tivo to watch at your leisure.

and that would be just wrong. .....right?

argggg....

[dgh]

I really don't understand why I can't timeshift a rental DVD just like I can timeshift a PPV.

You can't? :confused:

People on this forum have been saying they do that for years. TiVo just reproduces the DVD Macrovision on the output but that's fine unless you have your VCR in between your TiVo and the TV.

[icecow]

I hate to break it to you but Sony are absolutely the very worst company for restricting consumer choice and limiting what you can do with their products.

Here's an article in the LA Times about how Sony bought Music and Film businesses, and tried to tie them to their existing electronics. There was inhouse conflict between the hardware branch and the media branch. In short the result was the Media branch making the hardware branch add DRM.. no clear vision of the business model. So the DRM just killed sales. Sony has been hurting over the last few years. Once the de facto electronics king now shares and is dwarfed by other sources of innovation like Silicone Valley.

Here's the link to the article, unfortunately there is registration:
http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-fi-sony18sep18,1,7520543.story?coll=la-headlines-technology


Here's the first section of a three paged article:

Sony Looks for New Ways to Play
The company has struggled to blend its entertainment and electronics units, but its new CEO plans changes.

By Jon Healey and Alex Pham, Times Staff Writers


If any company can find a way to usher entertainment into the digital era, Sony Corp. would appear to be it.

The massive Japanese electronics and entertainment conglomerate owns a movie studio and co-owns a record label, backing blockbuster films such as "Spider-Man" and hit-making artists such as Bruce Springsteen.

ADVERTISEMENT

It invented the Walkman and the compact disc, products that revolutionized the way people listen to music. It builds computers, TVs, stereos, cameras and PlayStations, the world's most popular video game console.

"For a period there, they defined the consumer-electronics space," said Michael Goodman, a senior analyst at Yankee Group in Boston. "They were the quintessential electronics. Their name personified quality. They were a heck of an innovator."

But Sony's efforts to parlay its engineering and entertainment assets into compelling products and services for the Internet Age have yielded little to crow about. In particular, its online music store, downloadable movie service and digital music players have fallen flat in a market primed for new ways to play.

Sony's difficulties highlight the challenges facing the entertainment industry as it tries to find its footing in an era when cheap digital technology gives consumers more power and choices. If the one company on the planet that produces movies, music and games as well as the devices that play them can't figure out how to make them work profitably together, who can?

This week, Sony's new chief executive, Welsh-born Howard Stringer, is expected to announce a shake-up at the 59-year-old icon. It's the latest in a long series of efforts to generate fusion, not fission, from Sony's creative and gadget-making units.

"Silo walls between business units that impede cooperation and communication need to come down," Stringer said when he took control of Sony in June.

Analysts said Stringer would probably outline steps to break down those walls Thursday. They also said Stringer would probably propose significant staff reductions and plant closings as the company struggles with plummeting consumer electronics prices, particularly in the TV segment. But because the diagnosis is easier than the cure, Stringer's plan may initially involve baby steps rather than revolutionary changes.

"There has been a tall curtain between what the entertainment people want and what the consumer electronics guys want," said Rick Doherty, analyst with Envisioneering Group in Seaford, N.Y. "Howard's lowered the curtain several times, but there's still a very big cultural difference, and Howard understands this. He'll work slowly to lower the curtain further over time, but he knows it's not the easiest thing on earth."

Changes Ahead

Stringer gave a foretaste of the changes Wednesday when he created a chief marketing post for the corporation and put an honest-to-goodness marketing whiz in it: Andrew House, one of the executives responsible for making the PlayStation a global phenomenon. Like Stringer, House is from Wales, not Japan.

Yair Landau, vice chairman of Sony Pictures Entertainment, said Stringer's ability to bring factions together makes him the best person at Sony to pull off the task. But it's no mean feat.

"As the technological barriers have fallen away, they've exposed the cultural and political barriers" inside Sony, Landau said. "That's his biggest challenge, bridging those cultural and political barriers."

Sony began the process of reinvention in March, when it shunted its top corporate officers aside in favor of new leaders. In a richly symbolic break from past practice, the board chose the company's first non-Japanese chief executive.

Formally installed in late June, Stringer inherited an idiosyncratic company in which engineers historically competed to outdo each other with the most elegant and powerful gadgets. This infighting was exacerbated by years of distrust and resentment between the electronics and entertainment units.

"When they have interacted, it's been because one division didn't like what another division was doing," Goodman said. "And depending on who won that debate, bad decisions were made."

For years, creating irresistible products in new categories was Sony's stock in trade. It won massive, loyal followings with its Walkman portable music players, its Trinitron color televisions and, more recently, its CyberShot digital cameras and PlayStation game machines.

Although Sony remains king in some important product lines, it is an also-ran in several major, fast-growing arenas, such as flat-panel televisions and MP3 players. What's worse, the company is no longer seen as the leading innovator in consumer electronics. The great leaps forward are just as likely to come from Silicon Valley as from Tokyo.

Meanwhile, the company's financial performance has been lackluster and its stock stuck in neutral. With the electronics unit slumping and its studio riding the Hollywood roller coaster — up some quarters, down in others — the most dependable source of profit has been the PlayStation unit.


sign up if you want to finish article i guess continue article I guess...

[ZeoTiVo]

I think its pretty obvious that there's a problem. TiVo should atleast clarify what the Macrovision tags are to be used for and how they are going to prevent them from being abused. I don't think it will be that difficult for TiVo to contact some people that have seen this problem as it appears to be reported by more than just people on this forum. At this point we have to assume anything can randomly get deleted at any point.


cmon rainwater this is the old 99.99999999 / 0.00000001 rule. Millions of TiVos and we have a few scattered reports of some specific broadcasters/channels having trouble. TiVo coded this thing up and now that it is in wide release some glitches have shown up. Heck the slow menus and hard drive lockups was more widespread than this. Once TiVo finds some cases of this they can actually dig into and see what exactly is causing the problem they will release a patch.
The details of how macrovision works and what it is for is out there to be read. TiVo could put out a plain english version and that would be great but it is not like anyone is hiding the info. The details on how they detect a false positive is part of their proprietary code and most likely not worth reading unless you want to try and defeat the macrovison license on a TiVo

[Aflat]

1 day late, sorry!

http://img.engadget.com/common/images/4586150847204572.JPG

[jones07]

You only need to look at ReplayTV to see what happens if you try to fight the content producers.

tk


Word ;)
Lawyers for the Content producers bleed them and broke them. And once the case got close to going in front of a Judge, they just dropped the case. The Damage to ReplayTV was done.

In my opinion this was done as a lesson to all others. And TiVo watched and learned.

[rainwater]

cmon rainwater this is the old 99.99999999 / 0.00000001 rule. Millions of TiVos and we have a few scattered reports of some specific broadcasters/channels having trouble. TiVo coded this thing up and now that it is in wide release some glitches have shown up. Heck the slow menus and hard drive lockups was more widespread than this. Once TiVo finds some cases of this they can actually dig into and see what exactly is causing the problem they will release a patch.
The details of how macrovision works and what it is for is out there to be read. TiVo could put out a plain english version and that would be great but it is not like anyone is hiding the info. The details on how they detect a false positive is part of their proprietary code and most likely not worth reading unless you want to try and defeat the macrovison license on a TiVo

This is much different than a hardware problem or slow menus. I would rather have slow menus than the potential for my recordings to be deleted. These "glitches" might seem small now, but could become a worse problem later on. What if one day every fox station in the US "accidentily" sets this flag. Because TiVo's implementation isn't very good it will all of a sudden be a huge problem. I don't want to know how they have implemented it. I want to know how they are going to stop these "glitches". I want to know what they are going to do to protect me. All they seem to be worrying about is how they are going to protect themselves. Their PR department should atleast be doing something.

[lajohn27]

Their PR department could rush out a press release saying.. what.. "We don't know what's going on but next week we might have an idea and they'll be another press release then?"

Or would you rather they blatantly lied and said they knew exactly what the problem was and it'll be fixed by noon tomorrow?

Patience man.. It's not affecting thousands or even hundreds of users.. it's affecting 1 or 2 shows on "TENS" of users machines..

Sheesh.

J

[rainwater]

Their PR department could rush out a press release saying.. what.. "We don't know what's going on but next week we might have an idea and they'll be another press release then?"

Or would you rather they blatantly lied and said they knew exactly what the problem was and it'll be fixed by noon tomorrow?

Patience man.. It's not affecting thousands or even hundreds of users.. it's affecting 1 or 2 shows on "TENS" of users machines..

Sheesh.

J

I'm sorry but I find it impossible that its only affect 10s of users. But the fact that TiVo has written software that allows every channel in the US to automatically delete our programs is not a good thing. The PR department could atleast admit a mistake and say they are working on it. But apparently, we are stuck with hearing from CS saying that channels are allowed to set this flag so its not a bug.

[dgh]

These "glitches" might seem small now, but could become a worse problem later on.

We've had the slippery slope argument on everything that has ever happened. Someone might actually slip down one of them someday but we won't know in advance which one it will be. I hope everyone's wearing crampons because it's nasty out there.

What if one day every fox station in the US "accidentily" sets this flag.

Then there would finally be a large data set to work with. Likewise we would know that this is something that violates FCC rules instead of a just an obscure software glitch that recognizes a flag where there is none. Sure, it would be an annoying day but it would be awfully nice to take the situation out of obscurity.

Hey, what if every Fox station decided not to broadcast at all? Slide that slope. :)

[ZeoTiVo]

I'm sorry but I find it impossible that its only affect 10s of users. But the fact that TiVo has written software that allows every channel in the US to automatically delete our programs is not a good thing. The PR department could atleast admit a mistake and say they are working on it. But apparently, we are stuck with hearing from CS saying that channels are allowed to set this flag so its not a bug.


since as you say TiVo has not told us what is going on you sure do make HUGE ASSUMPTIONS and pass them off as certainties. Your postings might carry just a little bit of significance if you were not making such broad strokes as "every channel in the US"

the reality shows us that VERY FEW channels are experiencing this problem and they seem to be local broadcasters that actually have the problem. I doubt anyone is taking your posts seriously anymore.

welcome to my ignore list

[rainwater]

since as you say TiVo has not told us what is going on you sure do make HUGE ASSUMPTIONS and pass them off as certainties. Your postings might carry just a little bit of significance if you were not making such broad strokes as "every channel in the US"

the reality shows us that VERY FEW channels are experiencing this problem and they seem to be local broadcasters that actually have the problem. I doubt anyone is taking your posts seriously anymore.

welcome to my ignore list

I said every channel has the capability to delete programs. I never said they have or will. But I'm just asking that TiVo place safeguards on the software to prevent it on channels that shouldn't be allowed. Call me and idiot or whatever, but to say the software is fine as is, is a huge mistake.

[beejay]

I said every channel has the capability to delete programs. I never said they have or will. But I'm just asking that TiVo place safeguards on the software to prevent it on channels that shouldn't be allowed. Call me and idiot or whatever, but to say the software is fine as is, is a huge mistake.

Should TiVo respect the flags as the content provider sends them, or try to second-guess whether they are allowed to flag something as protected?

I think they are on safer grounds respecting what is sent and working out errors like they are doing now.

[megazone]

I said every channel has the capability to delete programs. I never said they have or will. But I'm just asking that TiVo place safeguards on the software to prevent it on channels that shouldn't be allowed.
My understanding is that they're not allowed to. If the flags are there, they must honor them - period. Doesn't matter if the channel isn't supposed to put them there, that's not TiVo's domain. Try this one - you have a cable box feeding the TiVo. You tune the TiVo to the local PBS station and tell it to record. Then you change the cable box over to the PPV event you ordered. The event has flags on it.

TiVo thinks it is recording PBS, not PPV. If TiVo tried to second guess the flags it would not honor them, when it, in fact, should, because it is recording a PPV event legitimately using the flags.

There are ways to fake out RF in the same way, so even when using the internal tuner TiVo should not second guess the flags.

Since this functionality is required for pretty much all recording devices, we'll see more and more of this. If channels screw up, it'll impact more than just TiVo.

[rainwater]

Since this functionality is required for pretty much all recording devices, we'll see more and more of this. If channels screw up, it'll impact more than just TiVo.

Yeah, but if it screws up on most devices that support Macrovision it doesn't delete your recording. It only prevents you from burning it to DVD. I really don't care what Macrovision says. TiVo needs to do something about this themselves for their customers. There are always ways around the macrovision flags. Its not hard to buy a device to strip them. Preventing TiVo from putting in safeguards only discourages users from buying a TiVo and from keeping their TiVo.

[dgh]

Yeah, but if it screws up on most devices that support Macrovision it doesn't delete your recording.

Actually we've had reports linked from this thread of devices where it won't record at all.

It only prevents you from burning it to DVD.

Even that doesn't help if your recorder of choice is a DVD recorder.

[rainwater]

Actually we've had reports linked from this thread of devices where it won't record at all.



Even that doesn't help if your recorder of choice is a DVD recorder.

I do not know of any hard drive based DVD recorders that delete recordings. However, I know the Sony ones prevent you from burning them to DVD. Seriously, that is not the point though. Prevention of these "glitches" is what TiVo needs to work on.

[dgh]

I do not know of any hard drive based DVD recorders that delete recordings.

1. Have you checked many? Or is this a handy thing for you to not know? ;)
2. What about non-hard disk DVD recorders?

[rog]

Breaking News this morning... I think the "truth" behind the recent DRM/Macrovision bugs is finally coming to light...

Tivo Network Gains Consciousness

Unconfirmed sources report that the TIVO network has become conscious. If these reports are true it will be the first time a man made network has gained the ability to think. TIVO technicians are said to be frantically working to communicate with the new entity and understand its new behaviors which are catching many of the system's users by surprise.

TIVO Inc denies that the network has become conscious and that it is thinking on its own. They insist that the problems users are encountering are because of a bug in the latest version of the software downloaded to the set top boxes. Many users don't believe the company and are demanding more information.

"Is it possible for a man made network to gain consciousness and take control of its network structure?" asks neural network expert Hans Trapp. "I believe that it is. My experiments with neural networks suggests that if a network gets big enough it could become a thinking entity, under the proper conditions."

"I first started seeing a difference in my TIVO about three weeks ago." Says long time user Fred Jones, of Palo Alto California. "My mother in law had set my TIVO to record 100 episodes of Golden Girls and the TIVO flat out refused to do it. It then flashed up a message and told me that I was watching too much FOX News and that I should read a newspaper once in a while. It kind of freaked me out. I unplugged it and I haven't had the nerve to start it up again."

Jim Denney, director of product marketing for TIVO assures Unconfirmed Sources that reports of the TIVO network becoming conscious are an internet fantasy and that their technicians have isolated the bug and will be sending new software to fix the problem.

There you have it!

from: http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/?itemid=1193

[jmoak]

smeeked!! (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=261288)
:D

[rainwater]

1. Have you checked many? Or is this a handy thing for you to not know? ;)
2. What about non-hard disk DVD recorders?

1) Well, the Sony ones don't and considering they are about the most restrictive when it comes to DRM I doubt there are many that do.
2) It would be hard for a non-hard disk recorder to delete a program off of the disk if it doesn't have one.

[dgh]

2) It would be hard for a non-hard disk recorder to delete a program off of the disk if it doesn't have one.

You're really trying to play up to the "BS" in the title aren't you? ;)

Or do you really think that a show being deleted from a hard disk after a week is actually more of an inconvenience than not being recorded in the first place? If you actually believe this, you can defeat all Macrovision by deleting all of your season passes. :D

What's really interesting is how, for the last few days, all we're talking about in this thread is stuff like this and in that time a fourth (third?) effected person has failed to appear. Maybe the slope isn't as slippery as it looked. Time will tell...

[mec1991]

I hate to break it to you but Sony are absolutely the very worst company for restricting consumer choice and limiting what you can do with their products.


Oh well, time will tell....

[rainwater]

You're really trying to play up to the "BS" in the title aren't you? ;)

Or do you really think that a show being deleted from a hard disk after a week is actually more of an inconvenience than not being recorded in the first place? If you actually believe this, you can defeat all Macrovision by deleting all of your season passes. :D


First of all, I am not cancelling my service or making rash decisions. All I asked for is for TiVo to safeguard the software to prevent glitches and for TiVo to come out and clarify the situation. I don't think that is asking for a lot. But instead, I have been told that I am some type of idiot and that if I don't worship the ground TiVo walks on then I am stupid.

Btw, I travel a lot, so this deleting after a week 'glitch' would truly affect me if those flags were set on my machine.

[ZeoTiVo]

I have been told that I am some type of idiot and that if I don't worship the ground TiVo walks on then I am stupid.



everyone agrees that TiVo needs to do all it can to remedy this situation and TiVo itself is here asking for all the info it can get on the situation. It is good feedback to TiVo for you to say TiVo needs to make this stop happening on TiVos, but it is a problem starting with something wrong in the broadcast signal coming to the TiVo- it is not an easy matter to fix this correctly.

it is when you veer off into broad statements like All channels can delete shows off my TiVo It is those broad statements that are not supported by the reality of the situation that people are ragging on you for.

the overreactions and untrue broad statements in this thread are getting picked up all over the place. so people are replying to your posts emphatically in the hopes the overreaction dies down

[dgh]

But instead, I have been told that I am some type of idiot and that if I don't worship the ground TiVo walks on then I am stupid.

I don't agree with that either. I think you have been overreacting based on the information we have so far. I think that was another overreaction.

[Geoff]

I read about halfway through this thread while on the phone with Tivo.

This happened to me. I subscribed to HBO just to watch Rome. Last week's episode got the little red flag next to it -- it will be deleted in a week.

Right now, this is just an inconvenience. I am 2 or 3 episodes behind, so now I must watch them by Sunday or I'll fall behind. However, were I to travel (like last winter, when I was overseas for 6 weeks on a work assignment), I would be out of luck.

Thus, Tivo becomes less useful to me -- less useful than a VCR.

I just cancelled HBO. I will not buy another Tivo until this is removed, and I'll start seriously looking into MythTV. (Fortunately, I am a computer type so building my own DVR is feasible.)

I don't care if Tivo is just obeying license requirements. I don't care if abandoning Tivo will hurt them as a company. As a consumer, Tivo just became a significantly less useful product. If Tivo goes out of business because of loss of customers over this issue -- too bad. They should have fought for consumer's fair use rights.

Right now it's just one show. Once it works, of course, it will slowly be more and more shows. I'll get out now and invest in non-restricted technology while it's still possible to acquire it.

[dgh]

I just cancelled HBO. I will not buy another Tivo until this is removed, and I'll start seriously looking into MythTV. (Fortunately, I am a computer type so building my own DVR is feasible.)

Since you didn't get through the whole thread, you might not have seen the links to other forums where people have already reported this on some of the popular video capture cards that MythTV builders use. You might want to stick with the VCR.

[jmoak]

Numerous blogs, internet news sites, local papers and now the Associated Press and Newsweek have picked up the Macrovision/Deletion story and tell us that "Hollywood studios will one day reach into our set-top boxes to restrict the way we record and store movies and programs", with some even saying that this is happening today.

It's been almost two weeks since the first message about this hit the public. (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=259169)

It's getting awful hard to tell my friends that it's still "TV Your Way" when the media is proclaiming "With TiVo, It's Now TV Hollywood's Way, and there's nothing you can do about it".

Has TiVo made any kind of public statement about this, other than in a few posts here? The Wired article by Lucas Graves (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3) had a decent explanation from TiVo's Matthew Zinn of what was happening, but it was presented by Mr. Graves as "Has TiVo Forsaken Us?" saying that "TiVo won't let you watch whatever you want, whenever you want."

There have been reports here that these restrictions have appeared in other devices, but no one in the blog-world or the media seems to care about them, only TiVo.

The restricting of syndicated shows and some programs from PBS have done nothing but add fuel to the spreading fire and have discredited Mr Zinn's statement of "the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand".

Since then, there has been no word from TiVo except in this thread.

Their continued silence is deafening and worrisome, to say the least.

When Mr Zinn was asked if this was just the beginning and if these restrictions were used on programming other than "high value content" (ppv's and the like) what would their reaction be, he replied, "I don't think we would go along with it."

Does TiVo still feel that way? Are they trying to figure out what they can do about it? Do they think they can do anything about it?

Has TiVo made a public statement to the press that simply has not been reported?

Has TiVo simply not said anything at all?

If they have said nothing, Why so quiet?

Please TiVo, tell us what's going on.....

LOUDLY, where everyone can hear!



I almost started a new thread for this, but.......

[MighTiVo]

You can't? [record a DVD to watch it later] :confused:

People on this forum have been saying they do that for years. TiVo just reproduces the DVD Macrovision on the output but that's fine unless you have your VCR in between your TiVo and the TV.


Try it again with the latest release and see what happens...

[dgh]

Try it again with the latest release and see what happens...

I never tried it with any release.

[BobCamp1]

You're really trying to play up to the "BS" in the title aren't you? ;)

Or do you really think that a show being deleted from a hard disk after a week is actually more of an inconvenience than not being recorded in the first place? If you actually believe this, you can defeat all Macrovision by deleting all of your season passes. :D

What's really interesting is how, for the last few days, all we're talking about in this thread is stuff like this and in that time a fourth (third?) effected person has failed to appear. Maybe the slope isn't as slippery as it looked. Time will tell...

The point is that all the FCC fines in the world won't help you get your favorite show back. It's gone. This new "feature" makes Tivo more unreliable than it was before. You don't know if you set a show to record, if it will actually still be there three days later. Excluding hardware failures, this wasn't even an issue before. This is why people are mad.

I'm pretty sure my VCR tapes don't magically blank themselves. I bet if I put one in, it would still play the content I recorded two years ago. Of course, the Feds are itching to get rid of OTA analog by the end of next year. Which will in turn restrict how I use my VCR.

(On a side note, every time there is a new feature added to Tivo, it seems there is a bug with it. Remember those pop-up adds that were only supposed to appear while FF'ing through commericals? Oops. You'd think the Tivo s/w engineers would have learned their lesson by now. )

All this will do in the end is drive more people to grab content illegally, or make illegal hacks to their PVRs. Or buy illegal boxes to block out this new form of copy protection. Count me in.

[ZeoTiVo]

The point is that all the FCC fines in the world won't help you get your favorite show back. It's gone. This new "feature" makes Tivo more unreliable than it was before. You don't know if you set a show to record, if it will actually still be there three days later. Excluding hardware failures, this wasn't even an issue before. This is why people are mad.

I'm pretty sure my VCR tapes don't magically blank themselves. I bet if I put one in, it would still play the content I recorded two years ago. Of course, the Feds are itching to get rid of OTA analog by the end of next year. Which will in turn restrict how I use my VCR.

(On a side note, every time there is a new feature added to Tivo, it seems there is a bug with it. Remember those pop-up adds that were only supposed to appear while FF'ing through commericals? Oops. You'd think the Tivo s/w engineers would have learned their lesson by now. )

All this will do in the end is drive more people to grab content illegally, or make illegal hacks to their PVRs. Or buy illegal boxes to block out this new form of copy protection. Count me in.

now all of that is reasonably stated and I pretty much agree with it. except that this forum is not the average consumer but is filled with people who will know how to block this stuff in analog and eventually in digital. so 99% of consumers will deal with this as is, to them it is just Television for God's sake ;)

[GrondramB]

Tivo's position is correct- this is not a battle they should or could or even need to fight for the consumer.


It depends on what the competition is doing. I am looking for replacements for my DirectTivos but could be pushed away from Tivo brand DVRS if retaining programs recorded with Tivo becomes an issue and there are other DVRs that don't do this.

[dgh]

I'm pretty sure my VCR tapes don't magically blank themselves. I bet if I put one in, it would still play the content I recorded two years ago. Of course, the Feds are itching to get rid of OTA analog by the end of next year. Which will in turn restrict how I use my VCR.

In addition, you're probably talking about an old VCR. Remember, a couple of weeks ago, your TiVo wouldn't do this either, and a Series 1 TiVo still wont. It's quite possible that future VCRs might simply not record the show at all. (If you care about future VCRs ;))

(On a side note, every time there is a new feature added to Tivo, it seems there is a bug with it. Remember those pop-up adds that were only supposed to appear while FF'ing through commericals? Oops. You'd think the Tivo s/w engineers would have learned their lesson by now. )

Yeah, after 30 years, I'd like to think that I'd learned never to put bugs in things either. But I haven't. Neither has any other human endeavor that I am aware of.

That's not to suggest that we engineers shouldn't (or don't) strive for that.

[Shaolin Dogs]

Does TiVo still feel that way? Are they trying to figure out what they can do about it? Do they think they can do anything about it?

Has TiVo made a public statement to the press that simply has not been reported?

Has TiVo simply not said anything at all?

If they have said nothing, Why so quiet?

I think the reaction is captured in the article you referenced:

Elliot Sloan, a TiVo spokesman, called the red-flag incident a "glitch" and said it affected only a handful of customers. "It's a non-story," Sloan said.

I think TiVo wants it to go away.

[Justin Thyme]

Tivo's position is correct- this is not a battle they should or could or even need to fight for the consumer.
It depends on what the competition is doing. I am looking for replacements for my DirectTivos but could be pushed away from Tivo brand DVRS if retaining programs recorded with Tivo becomes an issue and there are other DVRs that don't do this.I think at the point in the discussion when I made that statement, I was unaware that Tivo was bound by interlocking license agrements. As I and many others have often repeated in this thread since that realization, because they need a CSS agreement to do a DVD recorder Tivo, and because CSS requires the manufactuer to be a macrovision licensee, Tivo and other CE manufacturers really have no choice. That means that since there are not many CE vendors that aren't macrovision licensees, this is not a battle where the consumer can simply go to competitor products. A cunning plan as Baldrick would say. But is it?

In actuality, it is pointless for the content people to use this flag with the kind of abandon that many consumers seem to fear. That was the point Zinn made in his Wired interview. All consumers will do is buy the workaround gizmos that I mentioned to bypass the flag. If the studios escalate, then people will just start buying machines from Brazil and China that have zero DRM on them. Do the studios want to get consumers into the habit of downloading their video from "free" pirate video sites?

Heck no. So even if it were legal to use this flag as broadly as people fear the content guys want to, it is unlikely they will want to risk forcing users into this sort of behavior.

[davezatz]

Sorry for the crosspost, but this is a major misquote of epic proportions... well maybe only in our little Tivo community. But I do want everyone to know what Cory of BoingBoing posted is not what I said... I may not always support what Tivo does but I am always honest. He created a scenario for me which doesn't exist... :(

Here's what I posted after we exchanged a few emails:
I hope I'm not about to be misquoted by Cory of BoingBoing... he was asking me some questions about Tivo service. Specifically he wanted to know if the ability to restrict shows (the Macrovision stuff) was new since I bought my Tivo. I told him I believed it was included as a system update which led to a conversation about Tivo's service agreement - Tivo can update a box at any time in any way and if we don't like it we can cancel... however, cancelling may now result in this $150 fee. I tried to keep things neutral and factual, but he seemed fixated on Tivo's ability to update my box after I pruchased it. I'm not sure he understood I want most of the updates lke TTG and PC->TiVo.

Here's the original snippet:
David Zatz, a recent TiVo purchaser, decided to cancel his TiVo service. After all, he'd bought a device that could record all shows, not one that could record all shows save those that some paranoid Hollywood exec, overzealous broadcaster, or fumble-fingered technician gave him permission to record. TiVo had broken his device and he didn't want to keep using it.

But when he called TiVo, he found out that under the terms of his "agreement" with TiVo (e.g., the crap he clicked through when get got set up), he was obliged to pay a $150 "early cancellation" fee.

Here's my email back:
Hi Cory,

I definitely think the new $150 terminatin fee is worth mentioning and appreciate the link back. But I wanted to clear some things up... I didn't just buy Tivo, in fact I've had boxes for many years. Also I didn't call to cancel, but I have noticed the modified service agreement indicating a cancellation penalty.

The scenario you describe is entirely conceiveable (someone could buy a Tivo this month, receive a system update which adds the Macrovision copy protection restrictions, try to cancel, and get hit with a cancellation fee) but it didn't happen to me and I'm not aware of anyone documenting it.

I hope you can make the neccessary modifications to your article.

Thanks!
Dave Zatz

[Turtleboy]

Thanks for posting that David. I just saw the Boing Boing piece and was about to post about what a ******bag you were, but I guess I'll hold off.

For now. ;)

[Y-ASK]

Well I too have come to the realization that Tivo has more at stake than what someone with a limited knowledge of the subject matter would think concerning this issue. It's easy to say that Tivo should just can this whole macrovision stuff and pass the signal through as it did before. But Tivo must protect itself if it is going to move forward with forward thinking ideas such as Tivo-To-Go and DVC recorders, etc. I get it now. Now let's just hope that the copyright holders don't go crazy with this stuff. I can understand a flag for Pay-Per-View or VOD, let's hope that's as far as it goes.

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

there is a thread about a minimum one year agreemnt that also talks of the early cancelation fee. I can see the arguments for it but think the timing of it stinks and the whole idea will sell less TiVos. anyhow too bad for you Dave. I will be happy if my name never appears in BoingBoing. It really shows how someone with an agenda can post any kind of crap now adays and have some read it as "news" or even give it the respect of an "editorial". Neitehr of which that posting in BoingBoing should ever get. :down:

[ZeoTiVo]

Well I too have come to the realization that Tivo has more at stake than what someone with a limited knowledge of the subject matter would think concerning this issue. It's easy to say that Tivo should just can this whole macrovision stuff and pass the signal through as it did before. But Tivo must protect itself if it is going to move forward with forward thinking ideas such as Tivo-To-Go and DVC recorders, etc. I get it now. Now let's just hope that the copyright holders don't go crazy with this stuff. I can understand a flag for Pay-Per-View or VOD, let's hope that's as far as it goes.

Y-ASK


so far the FCC rulings do not let it go any further. And yes I as well can put up with some errors and glitches along the way to a better feature set :up:

[rog]

Sorry for the crosspost, but this is a major misquote of epic proportions... well maybe only in our little Tivo community. But I do want everyone to know what Cory of BoingBoing posted is not what I said... I may not always support what Tivo does but I am always honest. He created a scenario for me which doesn't exist... :(

I regret to inform you that your misquote is now making the rounds over at Slashdot:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=163291&cid=13640860

Here's the link to the story itself on Slashdot (which is basically just a link to the BetaNews article):

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/24/213219&tid=129

Good luck getting your version of the story out there on Slashdot. The trolls and lame meta-mods will probably bury any attempts to correct the misinformation. :rolleyes: Sorry Dave, that sucks! I'm hereby boycotting BoingBoing.

[davezatz]

Good luck getting your version of the story out there on Slashdot. The trolls and lame meta-mods will probably bury any attempts to correct the misinformation. :rolleyes: Sorry Dave, that sucks! I'm hereby boycotting BoingBoing.

Yeah, I doubt there's anything I can do to correct story at this point... It's pretty f-ed up though - I've been misquoted and misunderstood before, but never has an entire scenario been fabricated with me in the lead role like that. Nutty! He did slightly alter the story after my email (which I posted here) - I'm no logner a new customer and I didn't call to cancel, unfortuantely the rest of the fictional account exists.

Oh well, like all things it will blow over - I just wanted to make sure folks on the board here were aware that I didn't say those things. I'll be boycottng Boing Boing too - if for no other reason than I have no reason to believe any of their stories are factual.

[ZeoTiVo]

Yeah, I doubt there's anything I can do to correct story at this point... It's pretty f-ed up though - I've been misquoted and misunderstood before, but never has an entire scenario been fabricated with me in the lead role like that. Nutty! He did slightly alter the story after my email (which I posted here) - I'm no logner a new customer and I didn't call to cancel, unfortuantely the rest of the fictional account exists.

Oh well, like all things it will blow over - I just wanted to make sure folks on the board here were aware that I didn't say those things. I'll be boycottng Boing Boing too - if for no other reason than I have no reason to believe any of their stories are factual.

yes, I will stick to the more reputable blog sites and /. :rolleyes:

[morrsstt]

I have skimmed all of these replies but hoping someone can help me out. Last week I got the red flags and now can only keep stuff for 7 days and I understand its a copyright thing. Is this for real and will it always from now on be like this? What I really dont get is why just popped up and why doesn't my friend who lives only a few blocks away not have this on her TIVO? If this sticks, I am not goign to want to keep TIVO which I really do like... Thanks for any information.

[gonzotek]

I have skimmed all of these replies but hoping someone can help me out. Last week I got the red flags and now can only keep stuff for 7 days and I understand its a copyright thing. Is this for real and will it always from now on be like this? What I really dont get is why just popped up and why doesn't my friend who lives only a few blocks away not have this on her TIVO? If this sticks, I am not goign to want to keep TIVO which I really do like... Thanks for any information.If the flag appeared on a program that was NOT DVD, VHS, VOD, or PPV, you should call customer service and report the problem.
http://www.tivo.com/copyprotection
Like most television reception equipment, TiVo DVRs recognize Macrovision copy protection technology applied by program providers. This copy protection may be applied to certain limited categories of programming (such as Pay Per View, Video On Demand, DVD or VHS sources) and requires TiVo to respond in a pre-defined manner. Macrovision copy protection rules include:

Copy Never - This content is not allowed to be recorded by a TiVo DVR.
7 Day Unlimited - These programs can be recorded and viewed as many times as you like within 7 days of their original recording date
7 Day / 24 Hours - These programs can be stored for up to 7 days but once you begin watching the show, you must complete viewing within 24 hours.

Program providers decide which programs within the limited categories will have Macrovision copy protection. If you believe that you are getting copy protection messages incorrectly (on programs from sources other than the limited categories listed above) please call us and let us know. Questions regarding the use of copy protection on Pay Per View, Video on Demand, DVD or VHS content would be more effectively directed to the copyright holders themselves, not TiVo Customer Support.Contact TiVo (http://www.tivo.com/5.9.asp)

[hfwarner3]

Well, after recording 40 hours of TV off of both local and cable channels through Comcast Digital Starter package onto my standalone TiVo Series 2 running software version 7.2, I have not encountered a single red flag.

Almost all the TiVo subscribers are still going fine without issue. I just thought I would remind everyone.

[vegaspl]

This is the first I have heard of this problem. As you can see from my Signature I have multi TiVo's all with expanded capacity. This primarily so I don't have to be so concerned about how long I keep any recordings.

Example: Last Season I recorded the entire seasons of "24" and "Alias". Intending to watch them in marathon state.

I hoped to do even more this season. Do I have to be concerned???? :(

[davezatz]

I hoped to do even more this season. Do I have to be concerned???? :(
It is supposed to work by only placing limitations on Pay-Per-View or HBO type content. The type of limitation is supposedly chosen by the content owner and/or those responsible for sending the transmission.

Network shows like 24 and Alias should not be blocked. Most of the flags people have encountered so far seem to be glitches, with the Tivo software and/or the signal the Tivo receives.

This is going to start hitting all sorts of services/devices as we move forward in the DRM world... Tivo just has the misfortune of being high profile and implementing it earlier than others - combined with what I believe is some quality control issues.

[mrpaulus]

I have not seen any red flag icons displayed within the Tivo menus, however I believe that one of my upcoming recordings will be "protected", and is slated to be deleted after 48 hours. Is this true/expected?

The detail screen for a first-run Family Guy to be recorded on 10/2 at 9:00PM says:
"Keep Until: Tue 10/4 9:00PM".

However, I have set the Family Guy first-run season pass to "Keep Until I delete".

- Space is not an issue
- No other Family Guys are set to record that week.

I have screen shots but tivocommunity will not let post URLs until I have five posts.

[dgh]

Is this true/expected?


No, the Macrovision flags are for 7 days, 2 days is a default TiVo keep date. Also Macrovision is transmitted in the TV signal so your TiVo wouldn't know about it in advance.

[mrpaulus]

2 days is a default TiVo keep date.

I appreciate your speedy reply. Any reason why Tivo would be saying that it'll delete my Family Guy episode after two days? I set up the Season Pass earlier today as "Keep Until I delete"... perhaps the To-Do list has not been updated?

Thanks,
Paul

[dgh]

Perhaps. If it still looks like that tomorrow, you might want to post in the help forum.

[beejay]

I appreciate your speedy reply. Any reason why Tivo would be saying that it'll delete my Family Guy episode after two days? I set up the Season Pass earlier today as "Keep Until I delete"... perhaps the To-Do list has not been updated?

Thanks,
Paul

I don't think that is being recorded under a season pass that is KUID. Could you have changed something to make that a separate recording? (Does it have one check or two in the To Do list?)

Keep in mind that TiVo will not delete it even after the two days pass...unless it needs the space for other recordings you have requested.

[Havoc_Forever]

Ok I am having a similar problem; however I don't see a red flag. Lets say I had a show TiVo picked like Star Trek; it says it will be deleted exactly 2 days after it recorded if I set to “Keep Till” it will actually delete it at an earlier time! If I say Keep till I delete, it deletes it right then. Can anyone tell me what’s going on? :mad:

[rog]

Ok I am having a similar problem; however I don't see a red flag. Lets say I had a show TiVo picked like Star Trek; it says it will be deleted exactly 2 days after it recorded if I set to “Keep Till” it will actually delete it at an earlier time! If I say Keep till I delete, it deletes it right then. Can anyone tell me what’s going on? :mad:

Hello and welcome to the board!

I think you may be a bit confused about the way the TiVo works even without Macrovision flags... in any case, you've certainly confused me!

Part of the symptoms you describe are normal if your TiVo is getting close to its capacity. For example, if you mark a show as "Keep 2 days", it is still possible that the show will be deleted earlier if you have other shows to record but you're out of space.

What doesn't make any sense to me is the fact that you say "Keep till I delete... deletes it right then". That doesn't sound right at all. It doesn't sound like normal TiVo behavior OR a Macrovision thing.

Can you elaborate at all?

[Havoc_Forever]

I have had my TiVo for about a year and it it started this behavior this sunday I go to "Keep untill I delete" and for some reason it just deletes it right then in there, I checked to make sure I didn't click on "Delete Now" and I didn't, and whats more baffeling is when I increase the save time it begins to subtract time for example: lets say its set to delete a show on friday I set to delete on Sunday, when i go back to see if it set it now says it will delete on Thursday. I have never had a problem before and I don't think its a storage issue because I have an 80G and it has almost nothing on it.

[rog]

I have had my TiVo for about a year and it it started this behavior this sunday I go to "Keep untill I delete" and for some reason it just deletes it right then in there, I checked to make sure I didn't click on "Delete Now" and I didn't, and whats more baffeling is when I increase the save time it begins to subtract time for example: lets say its set to delete a show on friday I set to delete on Sunday, when i go back to see if it set it now says it will delete on Thursday. I have never had a problem before and I don't think its a storage issue because I have an 80G and it has almost nothing on it.

Wow. I've been reading this forum for a while now (spending way too much time here!), and I've never seen this one. What you describe is really bizarre.

Is it a modded TiVo? Or was it 80 GB (80 hours) out of the box?

I'm pretty much out of ideas. Have you tried contacting support yet?

[ZeoTiVo]

Wow. I've been reading this forum for a while now (spending way too much time here!), and I've never seen this one. What you describe is really bizarre.

Is it a modded TiVo? Or was it 80 GB (80 hours) out of the box?

I'm pretty much out of ideas. Have you tried contacting support yet?

yes, this is not a Macrovision issue or even a properly working TiVo or even a hard drive issue.

eitehr the poster is not relaying what he is seeing/doing to us completely or his TiVo software has gone way belly up. I too suspect a mod gone sideways.

the underground forum is the place if that is the case.

[ZeoTiVo]

a report from an actual experience filled with actual details of what actually happened in one case on actual macrovison flags actually set in error by an actual broadcaster

it is actually in this thread
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=262692

[Stormspace]

a report from an actual experience filled with actual details of what actually happened in one case on actual macrovison flags actually set in error by an actual broadcaster

it is actually in this thread
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=262692

Actually?

[ZeoTiVo]

Actually?

<Donny Baker>I swear to God it is , man</Donny Baker>

[J9 Kkundog]

We had 3 red flags 2 weeks ago none since , I do belive it was a mistake .

I have a feeling this red flag thing is the first step in a deal with Netflex .

Just think how great it would be to go to the netflex web site log on pick a movie
send it to your Tivo and yes i would see why they would need the red flag.

I saw another post about a deal with Netflex and Tivo :D I hope its true.

[backspaces]

[Excuse a cross post from the DVD Recorder Thread .. didn't know about this one]

Well, imagine my surprise when I recorded the PBS Bob Dylan special yesterday .. and went to burn it to DVD for archival purposes .. and found that it was forbidden due to copywrite protection.

I don't get it. If I had simply copied it to VHS or DVD, no problem. But TiVo? Yup .. can't do.

I'm thinking pretty seriously about returning the RS-TX60. Yes, its a pain to have to use a vanilla DVD/VHS combo, but at least I'm in control.

Is there any way to predict which programs are copy protected? I could at least copy them directly rather than using TiVo.

Anyone else upset by this?

[jmoak]

Anyone else upset by this?I feel for ya, but I recorded it just fine.

Where are you and did anyone else in your area have this same problem?

In this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=262692) simonalope had the same kind of problem and got it fixed.

Good Luck!

[simonalope]

I don't get it. If I had simply copied it to VHS or DVD, no problem. But TiVo? Yup .. can't do.

Actually, if there had been authentic Macrovision in the signal, just about any recent VCR would have reacted to the Macrovision by introducing huge video artifacts in the recording. When one of my channels had Macrovision in its signal due to a hardware problem at my cable provider (go read my thread, linked by jmoak ), all the test VHS recordings I made off that channel had color fade in/out, vertical interference bars, and occasionally the signal would just cut out entirely. This was using a 6-year old Sony VCR and with the cable signal going straight to the VCR - no TiVo involved.
Macrovision copy-protection is *not* limited to TiVo.

[backspaces]

I feel for ya, but I recorded it just fine.

Where are you and did anyone else in your area have this same problem?

In this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=262692) simonalope had the same kind of problem and got it fixed.

Good Luck!
I think you're right .. I noticed the same problem last night while recording another PBS program, their pledge drive (hardly likely to be protected!). I checked to see if I could burn it to DVD and got the same message.

So I'll check into this, testing other channels as well, and hopefully have another happy ending.

I live in Santa Fe, NM, and don't know other folks with TiVo/DVD combos, but I'll ask around.

Thanks for the feedback.

[backspaces]

Actually, if there had been authentic Macrovision in the signal, just about any recent VCR would have reacted to the Macrovision by introducing huge video artifacts in the recording. When one of my channels had Macrovision in its signal due to a hardware problem at my cable provider (go read my thread, linked by jmoak ), all the test VHS recordings I made off that channel had color fade in/out, vertical interference bars, and occasionally the signal would just cut out entirely. This was using a 6-year old Sony VCR and with the cable signal going straight to the VCR - no TiVo involved.
Macrovision copy-protection is *not* limited to TiVo.
That's a good point, I was not fully understanding the protection scheme. I was thinking about the recent "broadcast bit" that would signal to the TiVo to not allow burning to DVD. If the macrovision is actually in the broadcast .. it would act as you say. Thanks for clarifying.

[ZeoTiVo]

That's a good point, I was not fully understanding the protection scheme. I was thinking about the recent "broadcast bit" that would signal to the TiVo to not allow burning to DVD. If the macrovision is actually in the broadcast .. it would act as you say. Thanks for clarifying.

I would highly reccomend you send a PM (private message) to TiVoPony in this forum as well with what info you have. He is an employee of TiVo and helped out simonalope. Just click on the members List (black text at top of the page) navigate to T - TiVoPony and click on PM button. He can really help you out.

[simonalope]

That's a good point, I was not fully understanding the protection scheme. I was thinking about the recent "broadcast bit" that would signal to the TiVo to not allow burning to DVD. If the macrovision is actually in the broadcast .. it would act as you say. Thanks for clarifying.

Yeah, I'm probably not phrasing this in the most technically correct way, but Macrovision is basically a certain "signature" of artificial jumps in the brightness information. The VCR tries to compensate for the changes, but they're too fast for it to be able to keep up, causing the video image to get all funky. Just about any TV or modern recording device (like a TiVo) can ignore the pulses and still give you a clean picture, but the signature is still there and can thus warn the device that the transmission should be copy-protected.
I got to take a look at the signal with and without Macrovision applied on some kind of fancy oscilloscope - it was rather cool, and you can immediately see the difference.

[groggynod2]

First of all thank God for backups so I can use my TiVo the way it was when I bought it brand new and half working the way I wanted it too knowing that it wont take too much to make it work the way I want.

Second after hearing about this macrovision and having my TiVo broken by TiVo with 7.2 "Upgrade" (downgrade really) I'm going to cancel my TiVo dis-service. I would imagine this Macrovision can easily be circumvented if you dont use the TiVo dis-service and use S-video or whatever other A/v cables the built in "Manually Record TIme/Channel" feature (TiVo Central>> Pick Programs to Record>> Record by Time or Channel>> Manually Record TIme/Channel) built into the OS in the first place so that you are not subject to Big Brother accidentally or purposely deleting content that you are paying for more than once I might add. After aying a monthly cable service fee (unless you are picking up free airwaves) plus renting the box and the remote and paying for the TiVo dis-service totalling a monthly cost of well over $70 just for the basic cable service not to mention digital or HD and the the cost of the TiVo just to have it broken after spending hours getting it to work the way I want. It almost seems like I should have spent the money on an HDTV tuner card and used it in conjunction with Windows seeing as how all the hacks and adding and removing hard drives, hardware and learning linux (not that learning linux is a bad thing) that are required to make the unit run properly. The only redeeming qualities are the fact the TiVo is a standalone unit for the most part and with the service makes it easy to record and watch shows well used to anyways before they let Big Brother step in. A majority of us are paying for these services only to have our rights as a consumer stripped by the people who we are making rich?? I dont like the sound of that but thats the reality of it. Wheres the EFF ( Electronic Frontier Foundation do a google serach in case you dont know) when you need them? We may be better off giving them our $12.95 a month seeing as how they will actually fight for our rights as a consumer considering the government wont and they take money right out of our paychecks. "We the people" are supposed to be the government anyways and cant make anything happen about this television blasphemy yet. We the relatively poor masses work daily to pay for these conveniences only to have them restricted or taken away while we make the providers richer? We need to take the power back. TiVo fix the problem my serial port worked before the upgrade to make the daily calls now after version 7.2 it doesnt is that DRM? Where is CRM? Consumer Right Management we dont get that even though we are paying for this two and three times over after cable, tivo, and tax. We have to create our own CRM. TiVo fix the problem dont make us the enemy this a mutual symbiotic relationship you need us we need you dont let the broadcasters and TV stations bully you. The TiVo community will rise up in support of you fighting the Macrovision.

Nuff Said
Excelsior

[lajohn27]

Wonderful plan excelsior.. except that your box.. (presumeably a Series 2) won't record manually without the TIVO service.

If I recall correctly.. no series 2 box has a version of the software that will allow manual recordings without service.. so all the backups in the world aren't going to change your situation.

May I suggest a better plan? Wait to cancel your service till shows are actually red-flagged on your box. You may a long wait.

Approximately 20 people in about 4 cities have so far reported red-flags.. That's it. It's not happening all over the place and it *is* clearly a mistake.


IF you actually do have a red-flagged show on your box already (something I highly doubt) Send a PM to simonalope.. to confirm this but he was able to get the red-flag problem solved in his market by coordinating communications directly with the TIVO employees in this forum.

On the other hand.. if you're in a rush to dump the TIVO service, lemme know.. maybe I can take advantage of your silly hastiness and pick up some of your boxes cheap. All mine still work fine and I could always use a couple for spare parts or backups.

J

[ZeoTiVo]

Second after hearing about this macrovision and having my TiVo broken by TiVo with 7.2 "Upgrade" (downgrade really) I'm going to cancel my TiVo dis-service. I would imagine this Macrovision can easily be circumvented if you dont use the TiVo dis-service and use S-video or whatever other A/v cables the built in "Manually Record TIme/Channel" feature (TiVo Central>> Pick Programs to Record>> Record by Time or Channel>> Manually Record TIme/Channel) built into the OS in the first place so that you are not subject to Big Brother accidentally or purposely deleting content Macrovision - google it in case you don't know about it. Or read this very thread you posted in to find out why you are so completely wrong.

I won't even go into the rest of your call to revolution :rolleyes:

[mec1991]

First of all thank God for backups so I can use my TiVo the way it was when I bought it brand new and half working the way I wanted it too knowing that it wont take too much to make it work the way I want.

Second after hearing about this macrovision and having my TiVo broken by TiVo with 7.2 "Upgrade" (downgrade really) I'm going to cancel my TiVo dis-service. I would imagine this Macrovision can easily be circumvented if you dont use the TiVo dis-service and use S-video or whatever other A/v cables the built in "Manually Record TIme/Channel" feature (TiVo Central>> Pick Programs to Record>> Record by Time or Channel>> Manually Record TIme/Channel) built into the OS in the first place so that you are not subject to Big Brother accidentally or purposely deleting content that you are paying for more than once I might add. After aying a monthly cable service fee (unless you are picking up free airwaves) plus renting the box and the remote and paying for the TiVo dis-service totalling a monthly cost of well over $70 just for the basic cable service not to mention digital or HD and the the cost of the TiVo just to have it broken after spending hours getting it to work the way I want. It almost seems like I should have spent the money on an HDTV tuner card and used it in conjunction with Windows seeing as how all the hacks and adding and removing hard drives, hardware and learning linux (not that learning linux is a bad thing) that are required to make the unit run properly. The only redeeming qualities are the fact the TiVo is a standalone unit for the most part and with the service makes it easy to record and watch shows well used to anyways before they let Big Brother step in. A majority of us are paying for these services only to have our rights as a consumer stripped by the people who we are making rich?? I dont like the sound of that but thats the reality of it. Wheres the EFF ( Electronic Frontier Foundation do a google serach in case you dont know) when you need them? We may be better off giving them our $12.95 a month seeing as how they will actually fight for our rights as a consumer considering the government wont and they take money right out of our paychecks. "We the people" are supposed to be the government anyways and cant make anything happen about this television blasphemy yet. We the relatively poor masses work daily to pay for these conveniences only to have them restricted or taken away while we make the providers richer? We need to take the power back. TiVo fix the problem my serial port worked before the upgrade to make the daily calls now after version 7.2 it doesnt is that DRM? Where is CRM? Consumer Right Management we dont get that even though we are paying for this two and three times over after cable, tivo, and tax. We have to create our own CRM. TiVo fix the problem dont make us the enemy this a mutual symbiotic relationship you need us we need you dont let the broadcasters and TV stations bully you. The TiVo community will rise up in support of you fighting the Macrovision.

Nuff Said
Excelsior


Dude, it's just television. Chill. If you want to lead a revolution at least pick a worthwhile target. Like not being able to phone any chain pharmacy without going though a maze of a phone answering system and then being put on hold for 10 minutes just to ask if your blood pressure refill is ready to be picked up. ;)

I am firmly convinced that businesses despise their customers. TiVo is no different from anyone else. :(

[starbreiz]

Dude, it's just television. Chill. If you want to lead a revolution at least pick a worthwhile target.
:up:


I am firmly convinced that businesses despise their customers. TiVo is no different from anyone else. :(
I think TiVo is one of the good guys, but their hands are tied.

[groggynod2]

Yes I have Series 2 TiVo Lajohn 27. If you read my post I left specific instructions on how to manually record shows WITHOUT having TiVo service just walk through the steps and use S-video or any other A/V cables except for coaxial (sorry I left that out) granted you dont get the channel info and title of the show but it works just like setting a VCR. Macrovision-googled and disliked even more. Like I said in my original posting Thank God for backups and Macrovision is attempting to thwart that ability. What is so wrong with keeping archival backups of your paid for content? And for that matter what is wrong with keeping a second archival backup at relaitive or friends house in case of a catastrophe at home such as fire, earthquake, flooding, blizzard, or the ever so data and device destroying lightning strike?!?!?! Yes these are worse case scenarios but you cannot rule them out a friend of mines house was hit by lighting and fried every electrical appliance in there home from including TV, VCR, cable box, fridge, toaster etc you name it if they had it, it got fried and had to be replaced it was not a pretty sight not to mention all the char marks from the fires that started. Would you like to pay for something twice because of a natural disaster? I didn't think so and if you would you seriously need to get your head checked. As for where the EFF is I found them. Thank you Slashdot and CmdrTaco.
(71=dit&921=dit?lmths.0421121/11/01/50/ory/gro.todhsals.ory//:ptth the URL is backwards sorry I havent made 5 posts yet so you have to type it in manually as you read it from right to left. see there are workarounds for everything :D :p) I'm recording shows to watch at my convenience and if a friend or relative of mine has my backup up copy so phunking what?!??! I'm not selling nor are they and nor are they or I redistributing it to the whole world. As for commercials who watches those anyway I have a remote that can change the channel and sense of mind to return to that station periodically or in a timed manner to continue watching the programming that I paid for. So if they want to complain about people being able to skip the commercials lmfao we already have the ability to do that its called channel changing. Anyone who complains about people being able to skip channels and keep there favorite shows recorded for however long they want is making too much money profitting from these things. As for the Flag things well even if it was a mistake the fact of the matter is TiVo allowed this mistake to be possible period. (sorry to be redundant with the periods) This mistake was not possible before. So who are we to blame?? Ourselves for subscribing?? If someone makes a mistake with the food you ordered do you not have a right to complain and get your order corrected?? Have I made any of my points clear yet?? As for the TiVo upgrade breaking my serial connection that may have been my goof because even with the backup I have I still cant get anything from hyperterminal unless with the upgrade they were able to disable those connections somewhere in a hardware bios/firmware setting or something. I'm gonna try it on a differnet computer next but I'm open to suggestions.

Nuff said
Excelsior

[ZeoTiVo]

Got it, you don't like Digital Rights Management and think it should be gone from all devices and you can give copies to friends and relatives.

ok - in a beautiful, money free world I can go there as well. I have no vested interest in the profits of content providers.
BUT
TiVo lives in the real world of laws and business deals. They can not ignore a macrovison license required to have DVD support. They can not decide on their own what channels should not have contect protection and ignore the flags set incorrectly/illegally by the broadcaster. They can get the needed info and tell the broadcaster that legal action is possible if they do not fix their mistake. the broadcaster should rebroadcast the show correctly to fix their problem.

You also agreed to a license on the paid content when you agreed to hand over money. there will be somewhere the fact that the material should only be held for x amount of time. Don't like the agreement ? then don't get the content. and certainly don't slam TiVo because of the mechanism in use in all consumer electronics to enforce the agreement. Joining the EFF and pushing to change fair use laws is the right place to throw energy on that one.

I have never heard of what you are saying on an unsubbed sereis 2, so no idea if it is technical wise correct or incorrect but it is theft of service as you are using TiVo software which use of comes with a license and TOS.

[beejay]

I have never heard of what you are saying on an unsubbed sereis 2, so no idea if it is technical wise correct or incorrect but it is theft of service as you are using TiVo software which use of comes with a license and TOS.

He's wrong...but it will take a little while of no subscription/no call-in for his TiVo to make that clear to him.

[Y-ASK]

Well said ZeoTivo! Everything Zeo wrote is true. Macrovision is every where. Just because you havn't run across it yet doesn't mean it's not embedded in another device you may own. Just about all new capture cards have MV setup to disallow recordings. All VCRs have it. Most of the new portable media players have it. And since I do not have an unsub'ed Tivo Series Two to test with I would go with what the experts say. It will probably become a boat anchor after a certain period of time. One way you'll know for sure is to let it dial-in after you've kill the service.

If you would just take the time a read through this entire thread maybe you will eventually come to the same conclusion that I did. It was something Tivo had to do and what most people are seeing is a mistake on the part of the boardcast stations.

But if it bothers you that much build your own... Any reasonable thinking person who looks at the entire issue will see that it is something Tivo had to do and it is no different than what any other companies is doing when it comes to DRM. Call congress and make your voice heard but blaming Tivo for this just doesn't make any sense.

Y-ASK

[gonzotek]

First of all thank God for backups so I can use my TiVo the way it was when I bought it brand new and half working the way I wanted it too knowing that it wont take too much to make it work the way I want.

Second after hearing about this macrovision and having my TiVo broken by TiVo with 7.2 "Upgrade" (downgrade really) I'm going to cancel my TiVo dis-service. I would imagine this Macrovision can easily be circumvented if you dont use the TiVo dis-service and use S-video or whatever other A/v cables the built in "Manually Record TIme/Channel" feature (TiVo Central>> Pick Programs to Record>> Record by Time or Channel>> Manually Record TIme/Channel) built into the OS in the first place so that you are not subject to Big Brother accidentally or purposely deleting content that you are paying for more than once I might add. After aying a monthly cable service fee (unless you are picking up free airwaves) plus renting the box and the remote and paying for the TiVo dis-service totalling a monthly cost of well over $70 just for the basic cable service not to mention digital or HD and the the cost of the TiVo just to have it broken after spending hours getting it to work the way I want. It almost seems like I should have spent the money on an HDTV tuner card and used it in conjunction with Windows seeing as how all the hacks and adding and removing hard drives, hardware and learning linux (not that learning linux is a bad thing) that are required to make the unit run properly. The only redeeming qualities are the fact the TiVo is a standalone unit for the most part and with the service makes it easy to record and watch shows well used to anyways before they let Big Brother step in. A majority of us are paying for these services only to have our rights as a consumer stripped by the people who we are making rich?? I dont like the sound of that but thats the reality of it. Wheres the EFF ( Electronic Frontier Foundation do a google serach in case you dont know) when you need them? We may be better off giving them our $12.95 a month seeing as how they will actually fight for our rights as a consumer considering the government wont and they take money right out of our paychecks. "We the people" are supposed to be the government anyways and cant make anything happen about this television blasphemy yet. We the relatively poor masses work daily to pay for these conveniences only to have them restricted or taken away while we make the providers richer? We need to take the power back. TiVo fix the problem my serial port worked before the upgrade to make the daily calls now after version 7.2 it doesnt is that DRM? Where is CRM? Consumer Right Management we dont get that even though we are paying for this two and three times over after cable, tivo, and tax. We have to create our own CRM. TiVo fix the problem dont make us the enemy this a mutual symbiotic relationship you need us we need you dont let the broadcasters and TV stations bully you. The TiVo community will rise up in support of you fighting the Macrovision.

Nuff Said
Excelsior1. An HDTV card with up to date vendor provided drivers can (and likely will) respond to the macrovision codes embedded within television content in exactly the same way as TiVo does. The industry wants ALL video devices to respond to the flags, TiVo is not alone, and jumping from it to something else is no guarantee that you will be free from the DRM shackles.

2. Manually recording the wrong(right) channel will get you nowhere, because the flag is in the video itself, not the guide data that TiVo uses. In other words, it doesn't matter what TiVo thinks it's recording; if a flag is present, it will follow the restrictions set by the flag. The same applies to commercial vcr tapes, dvds, and laserdiscs.

3. See tivo.com/copyprotection,the only kinds of content that we can expect to see flagged is content that already has license restrictions that people are expected to abide by today. Namely: VOD, PPV, commercial VHS and DVD content. Anything else (such as over-the-air broadcast channels) is most likely an error (either at the source provider or within TiVo). VOD and PPV are both subject to the agreement(s) you have with your cable or satellite provider, and usually are a 'view once' or view within "x" time-period. Pay-Per-View spells it out for you right there in it's name...you pay, per viewing. VHS and DVD's have always(at least, for a very long time in VHS's case) had macrovision applied to them and backups have always been prevented by standard consumer-grade equipment. Why anyone would expect TiVo to be any different in that respect is beyond me.

Now, voting with your remote can be an effective message. So can supporting the EFF. If shows you like to watch start having additional restrictions applied to them, write the sponsors and let them know you plan on boycotting their products because they support programs that restrict your freedoms. Write your congress people too, let them know that you won't be voting for them (or their party) again if they aren't doing things the way you want them to.

[rainwater]

1. An HDTV card with up to date vendor provided drivers can (and likely will) respond to the macrovision codes embedded within television content in exactly the same way as TiVo does. The industry wants ALL video devices to respond to the flags, TiVo is not alone, and jumping from it to something else is no guarantee that you will be free from the DRM shackles.


Isn't that up to the software that uses the hardware? I don't see how the hardware can enforce time limits on video recorded to the pc.

[gonzotek]

Isn't that up to the software that uses the hardware? I don't see how the hardware can enforce time limits on video recorded to the pc.
...with up to date vendor provided drivers can (and likely will)...The hardware cannot enforce time limits, true.

[rainwater]

The hardware cannot enforce time limits, true.

Yes, the point is, using Linux, I don't see how you will see any Macrovision support in open source software.

[Justin Thyme]

Your general point is correct- that we'll always be able to load open source software without the macrovision or other DRM support. However, don't be too surprized to see Linux boxes preloaded with open source software that has had this flag support added.

If the proposed MPAA and RIAA language to be added to the Digitial TV bill (http://www.publicknowledge.org/issues/mpaa-riaa-floating-bflag-language) is to be believed, the FCC could prohibit distribution of any devices- including software devices- which allows reception of digital video and audio without FCC dictated features like the broadcast flag.

So we'll just have to read and compile source code written in French.

Nice thinking Congress.

[gonzotek]

Yes, the point is, using Linux, I don't see how you will see any Macrovision support in open source software.Well, since the hardware vendors can always stop publishing the specs and source code to their devices, you may find it difficult to locate open source drivers for newer pieces of hardware, assuming the vendors feel being in bed with the big media companies is to their advantage. Sure, for awhile, you can get away with using a rig set up to ignore the flags, but eventually something will fail and you'll have to replace it. There's always a way to get around things, I know. But only so many people are capable enough to do it, and only so many of those will actually want to. As someone else said earlier, it's only tv.

The real way to fight this fire is not by subversive quasi-legal measures, but right out in the open. Supporting the EFF, pestering your congress-people, and boycotting advertisers and other companies supporting drm'd content is how change will come about, if at all.

[Justin Thyme]

Very well said. :up:

[jones07]

The real way to fight this fire is not by subversive quasi-legal measures, but right out in the open. Supporting the EFF, pestering your congress-people, and boycotting advertisers and other companies supporting drm'd content is how change will come about, if at all.


Defend your rights in the new Digital world.
If you are of like mind make a Donation to Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF). They are fighting for us. ;)

http://www.eff.org/

[groggynod2]

Got it, you don't like Digital Rights Management and think it should be gone from all devices and you can give copies to friends and relatives.

ok - in a beautiful, money free world I can go there as well. I have no vested interest in the profits of content providers.
BUT
TiVo lives in the real world of laws and business deals. They can not ignore a macrovison license required to have DVD support. They can not decide on their own what channels should not have contect protection and ignore the flags set incorrectly/illegally by the broadcaster. They can get the needed info and tell the broadcaster that legal action is possible if they do not fix their mistake. the broadcaster should rebroadcast the show correctly to fix their problem.

You also agreed to a license on the paid content when you agreed to hand over money. there will be somewhere the fact that the material should only be held for x amount of time. Don't like the agreement ? then don't get the content. and certainly don't slam TiVo because of the mechanism in use in all consumer electronics to enforce the agreement. Joining the EFF and pushing to change fair use laws is the right place to throw energy on that one.

I have never heard of what you are saying on an unsubbed sereis 2, so no idea if it is technical wise correct or incorrect but it is theft of service as you are using TiVo software which use of comes with a license and TOS.


ZeoTiVo you don't "Got it" apparently you misunderstood what I said. By giving the copies to "a" friend or relative to store at there house for archival purposes and not to be distributed or sold is hardly theft of service considering it is paid for whether it be a DVD backup CD backup or copy of a show not if I paid for the content and some unforseen circumstance causes the original content to be destroyed How am I as the consumer protected against that? I"m not so i have to protec myself in that aspect. Having a backup copy is the only to do it without purchasing the content again. Let me ask you DO YOU LIKE TO PAY FOR THINGS TWICE?? and as for Y-Ask Why would I try to make a dial in call after having cancelled my service? The whole point is to not use the service by cancelling. What would be the point of dialing in to try to get a service I'm not subscribing for?? lol and beejay how long would you say before I cant use the TiVo without the subscription 1 month 2, 4, or 6 months?? It's already been 4. The TiVo service is just glorified menu system for listing the cable guide without it interfering with your video feed recording and to simplify the recording process. Why would TiVo want to keep me from using the DVR as a DVR? I should still be able to use it in closed circuit environment as long as I manually program it. The TiVo service lists programs and titles it for you and now they added the ease of transfering the video to your pc thats what you are paying for. I think thats great and yes TiVo is not sending you the broadcast flagged. But they are the gun that the trigger is being pulled on. So you are aiming the gun at yourself and playing russian roulette with the broadcaster loading the bullets; soemtimes blanks and oops the broadcaster loaded live ammo by accident and TiVo squeezing the trigger. Accident or not it happened. I know for sure you would not like to be on the recieving end of that gun. Your family would not be saying oh well thats DRM for you those goofy broadcaster always accidentally loading live ammo and killing people. Yes its a metaphor if you can come up with a better one I'm open to suggestions. Oh yeah you guys are fun to get all riled up. :))

[Y-ASK]

as for Y-Ask Why would I try to make a dial in call after having cancelled my service? The whole point is to not use the service by cancelling. What would be the point of dialing in to try to get a service I'm not subscribing for?? lol
My only point was that if you let it call in after you have cancelled service I would think your Tivo would check for status, be told right away you no longer have service, and disable your ability to manually record at that point in time. If you leave it disconnected eventually the Tivo will probably shut the manually record function off. And you're going to have problems with the clock. It's not as accurate as one would like. Part of letting your device call in is that it sets the clock every time so that TV shows record at the proper time. But as I have said I don't have a unsub'ed S2 to verify that fact.

Enjoy your unsub'ed Tivo for as long as you can but I would think eventually it's going to turn manually recording off. Series One Tivos are the only Tivos that can be used without the service. Did you ever say which one you have?

ZeoTivo understands perfectly well where you are coming from and he responded with a reasonable, well thought out response. If you ask me it's you who do not get it. You live in some bizaro world where you think the content is yours. I wish that that were the case but it's not. You don't even have the right to copy encrypted DVDs that you own. Enjoy the Sony Beta Fair Use precendent while you can, because I don't think it's going to be precendent for much longer. And that will truly be a sad day.

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

ZeoTiVo you don't "Got it" apparently you misunderstood what I said.

not a bit. I got it all right. if you want to reply like a troll that is your waste of time

[rainwater]

Well, since the hardware vendors can always stop publishing the specs and source code to their devices, you may find it difficult to locate open source drivers for newer pieces of hardware, assuming the vendors feel being in bed with the big media companies is to their advantage. Sure, for awhile, you can get away with using a rig set up to ignore the flags, but eventually something will fail and you'll have to replace it. There's always a way to get around things, I know. But only so many people are capable enough to do it, and only so many of those will actually want to. As someone else said earlier, it's only tv.

The real way to fight this fire is not by subversive quasi-legal measures, but right out in the open. Supporting the EFF, pestering your congress-people, and boycotting advertisers and other companies supporting drm'd content is how change will come about, if at all.

I agree. However, I think card makers have a lot of lose if they don't allow their hardware to work on linux. At this point, I don't see there being an issue anytime soon that would keep me from being able to record my shows in linux without drm attached.

[groggynod2]

yes I"m a troll from bizaro world and bizaro super man says hi to you guys too.

[groggynod2]

41=dit?lmths.3424202/11/10/02/ecneics/gro.todhsals.ecneics//:ptth its backwards again sorry i live in bizaro world remember??This must be my relative right ZeoTiVo?? and you still didnt answer any of my questions not that you have it only drives my point home more.

[Justin Thyme]

Enjoy the Sony Beta Fair Use precendent while you can, because I don't think it's going to be precendent for much longer. And that will truly be a sad day. I think that is unnecessarily pessimistic. But it is true that one of the limits of fair use is harm to the original value of the work if the copyright "fair use" was widespread. [wikipedia explanation of "effect on work's value limit] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#Effect_upon_work.27s_value)

Then there are court imposed restrictions.

I used to think well, the Courts are going to have to rule that way, because who will want to buy shows when they have a couple thousand archived.

Now I am not so sure.

What I am seeing with my server experiment of nearly 1000 Tivo shows (mostly movies) is that I feel very motivated to get some of these shows on HD DVD when they become available. It is theoretically possible that I could shut off my satellite service, and that would indicated lost revenue due to my archiving, but I am not at all inclined to do that either. I want to make another copy because it was compressed to heavily, I was missing the first minute of the show due to it starting early, it was automatically cropped wrong, or the audio sync is a little off. If this were not an experiment and I was not in the process of tossing these in order to do volume tests on another codec, it would be years and years before I would have had a saturated SD collection and even by then I would have figured out how to store what we consider HD and want to upgrade everything again.

Ad infititum. So there are many good reasons to expect an increase in the value of the work due to such archiving, not a decrease.

But what really matters is what arguments work with the judges who hear the case. And even very experienced lawyers disagree.

The unanticipated effect of archiving is that being able to time shift / archive large numbers of shows allows you to discover which shows are repeatable, and that you not only want to watch them more, but in very high quality. It's why I have a Criterion DVDs of "It's a Wonderful Life" and "Miracle on 34th street", and "Charade".

One would think that because Capra's film or Charade fell out of copyright that the value would have gone to nill. Instead, everyone associates the Jimmy Stewart film with Christmas because it could be used by the broadcasters without charge and the exposure proved its value. Similarly with Charade. There are a very large number of films with such repeatability value.

There is also a legitimate reason for extended time shifts. I don't know about you, but I am seldom in the mood for Danny Kay, but when I am, I really get into his schtick, and my girls do too. It's no good time-shifting such movies for 3 days or even 2 weeks. It may be months before I have the least inclination to look at a goofy Gamera film. But when the campiness bug hits me, I can take a look at them.

So what does this suggest? That you relax copy restrictions on lower resolution content to drive up demand of higher definition content. When display technology comes out with yet richer displays, you relax copy restrictions like macrovision flags and what not on the formerly Hidef stuff, and so on until we have holodeck quality 3D participatory movies. What I am saying is, the cycle can be continued virtually in perpetuity.

Fair use copying actually drives demand of the next iteration in media technology. Everyone wants the mind blowingly more realistic version precisely because it is uncommon.

20 years ago to predict the studios would be enthusiastic and promoting VHS, would be to invite hysterical laughter.

I am beginning to see that in 10 years, something like what I am describing will be a well established pattern and the studios will even be subsidizing and encouraging the Tivo copier of that decade. For now, we will have to deal with the numbskulls at the MPAA who think the sky is falling again, just like with VHS.

[groggynod2]

Justin all I have to say to that from my trolls point of view and being in bizaro world with bizaro superman is "Right On Man!!"

[Y-ASK]

I hope you're right Justin, I really do. But when you put a short sighted movie industry with lots of money together with a politician strapped for campaign contributions only bad things can. It has always been my contention that there should be absolutely no campaign contributions from anyone outside the Gov. What I mean by that is that our tax paying dollars should be spent on each canidate who can get enough signatures to have their name put on the election ballot. Eveyone gets the same amount with no strings, except you have to account for every penny spent and you cannot keep the money for your own person. Then there would not be a need for a Movie Industry Lobbiest and your representative could spend his/her time looking at what is fair for both personal use and protection of the copyright holder. With the current state of campaign contributions and the most important item on the representatives agenda is getting re-elected, I am some what pessimistic about the out come. DMCA is a pretty good example of that.

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

There is also a legitimate reason for extended time shifts. I don't know about you, but I am seldom in the mood for Danny Kay, but when I am, I really get into his schtick, and my girls do too. It's no good time-shifting such movies for 3 days or even 2 weeks. It may be months before I have the least inclination to look at a goofy Gamera film. But when the campiness bug hits me, I can take a look at them.

So what does this suggest? That you relax copy restrictions on lower resolution content to drive up demand of higher definition content. When display technology comes out with yet richer displays, you relax copy restrictions like macrovision flags and what not on the formerly Hidef stuff, and so on until we have holodeck quality 3D participatory movies. What I am saying is, the cycle can be continued virtually in perpetuity.

Fair use copying actually drives demand of the next iteration in media technology. Everyone wants the mind blowingly more realistic version precisely because it is uncommon.

20 years ago to predict the studios would be enthusiastic and promoting VHS, would be to invite hysterical laughter.

I am beginning to see that in 10 years, something like what I am describing will be a well established pattern and the studios will even be subsidizing and encouraging the Tivo copier of that decade. For now, we will have to deal with the numbskulls at the MPAA who think the sky is falling again, just like with VHS.

I can see this happening. I think that if the broadcast flag does get by or macrovison time restrictions become more commonplace then there will be court cases defining the length of time for a timeshift more clearly. I personally would not use anything that makes me watch the content whithin a 24 hour period and would actually want to see at least a week on the timehift and this is for current movies that still have value for DVD sales etc.. Movie links went by the wayside for overpriced content and the 24 hour period in my opinion.
I use Netflix precisely because I can keep the DVD as long as I need to, but generally turn them over in a 2 weeks time. I have never done PPV. :down:

And your media server where you back up all your DVDs adn OTA shows onto seems like legitimate fair use to me, assuming you bought the DVDs there should be no time restriction on them ;) Now the not so gray area is what if you give a copy to a neighbor to watch? then that means they did not have to buy or rent the DVD, do a PPV or subscribe to cable to record "The Court Jester" (my Favorite Danny Kay movie) there is lost value. Of course making a bit torrent server out of it definitely looses value and it is the threat of that that has the copyright holders wanting to put a no copy at all or short timeshift on everything that gets in the consumers hands. It is a two way street.

[dt_dc]

So what does this suggest? That you relax copy restrictions on lower resolution content to drive up demand of higher definition content. When display technology comes out with yet richer displays, you relax copy restrictions like macrovision flags and what not on the formerly Hidef stuff, and so on until we have holodeck quality 3D participatory movies. What I am saying is, the cycle can be continued virtually in perpetuity.Well this would suggest that the studios can and should fight for the ability to apply protection and restrictions. After all, if you if you can apply protections and restrictions ... you can also choose not to apply them as well.

Hollywood will always fight for the ability to add protections and restrictions for exactly this reason. Perhaps applying restrictions makes business sense ... perhaps it doesn't. Having the choice to apply protections and restrictions (or not) makes the most business sense of all ... which is exactly what Hollywood will always fight for. Not saying that they should be given carte-blanche ... but they will always try.

As an example ... PPV can be protected with Macrovision AGP, colorstripe, and copy-never flags. However, to my knowledge (in the US) it has never been.

Heck, there's an additional factor beyond just the value of the content. Start adding protections and you have to pay someone to do so. You don't start paying Macrovision $X per PPV order just because you can ... you only do it if you feel it makes business sense.

[Justin Thyme]

Well this would suggest that the studios can and should fight for the ability to apply protection and restrictions. After all, if you if you can apply protections and restrictions ... you can also choose not to apply them as well.The suggestion was very much intended. Protection of the high end form is integral to the model. If the creators of this content can't protect it, consumers will want the Brigadoon show in Hidef and a friend will "loan" it to them. And then the damage to the value of the work is patently obvious and either the courts or Congress act in a probably draconian fashion to prevent one of the few successful export businesses the US has from getting its domestic market destroyed.

A successful studio strategy will not rely on fixed emplacements like colorstriping or flags or a particular proprietary scheme. The modern hacking battleground is mobile, and all protection schemes will have to be as adaptable as virus protection software. This means heavy reliance on programmable DSPs, and penetration of watermark detection software into the displays themselves.

A successful studio strategy will not rely on fickle and localized domestic governmental involvement. Instead it will rely on technology standards from industry players with long term self interest in assuring long term supply of excellent content. With such a strategy you will have a strategy as effective n Brazil as it is in San Francisco.

This nonsense of using the DTV bill and the FCC as a bludgeon is as idiotic as the WWI generals who time and again wasted the lives of tens of thousands of brave men day after day, stubbornly refusing to believe that old tactics could not be used to fight a problem drastically alterred by technology. Even if they do succeed temporarily in the US, where else will they get a receptive audience? Brussels? They are talking about doing away with copyright entirely- the slogans they are using are cultural monopolists to tap intellectual concerns about the homogenization of local cultures by american media. Putting aside the complex European situation, what about the rest of the world where thievery is the norm? What can ever be done about pirate sites in Turkmenistan or Venezuala? Enforce international copyright? We can't even get Ven. to vote with the rest of the world in dealing with countries performing an end run around nuclear non proliferation treaties.

Focusing the center of one's strategy on legal protections is a dangerous delusion.Start adding protections and you have to pay someone to do so. You don't start paying Macrovision $X per PPV order just because you can ... you only do it if you feel it makes business sense. This is mistaken. Realnetworks and Microsoft will be happy to not only create such dynamically adaptable DRM software but perform the content encoding for free, because it is very much in their self interest to do so. Microsoft has already gone to exceptional lengths to add this sort of DRM into the bowels of the next version of Windows. You can't even get access to the memory cache for Hidef content because ring0 code in the kernel itself prevents it. To get access to the cache your code is authenticated against its revokable certificate by the OS. This is the same code used to protect against viruses, so it is very strong. Regarding content encoding, RNWK will encode and monitor violations and revoking of certificates because they want to have the broadest range of content possible.

Partnership with MS gets the technology muscle they need. Surprize surprize. Glaser and Gates reach a mutually beneficial agreement to do just that for audio DRM across multiple hardware devices. Putting the FCC into the design process as the RIAA suggests in their DTV bill suggested language will only achieve an inadequate technology solution delivered a decade from now.

They both are not the only players desperate for a critical mass of that high end content to be running on their platforms. I think they are the front runners for multiple hardware vendor solution on general purpose processors.

But maybe Macrovision will wise up and install a low level layer into the bowels of linux. I doubt it. Though they undoubtedly have innovative engineers that advocate doing this sort of thing, their organization is old school and such low level OS work would be as exceptionally costly as it is high risk. It would take a huge innovative spirit to do it, so it would have to be someone with ambition for anachronistic thinking in new businesses- like a google.

Just this diaper changer's wild ass guess. Maybe I am delusional from the thin air flying too high in the blue skies.

[ZeoTiVo]

But maybe Macrovision will wise up and install a low level layer into the bowels of linux. I doubt it. Though they undoubtedly have innovative engineers that advocate doing this sort of thing, their organization is old school and such low level OS work would be as exceptionally costly as it is high risk. It would take a huge innovative spirit to do it, so it would have to be someone with ambition for anachronistic thinking in new businesses- like a google.

Just this diaper changer's wild ass guess. Maybe I am delusional from the thin air flying too high in the blue skies.

I was with you right up to the getting macrovision into the bowels of Linux. I am not seeing many open source builds going with that one.

Macrovision may leave things like RealTV on windows alone and just let the next version of windows deal with it.

But open source will be the thorn in their side - I do not see how DRM will get in there unless it is a specialized build for commercial purposes ALA TiVo.

[jmoak]

But maybe Macrovision will wise up and install a low level layer into the bowels of linux. I doubt it.Maybe Macrovision will install a low level layer into the bowels of an open source operating system?

....and maybe pigs will sprout wings and fly, too.

No, really... It could happen!

;)

I smeeked!

[mec1991]

:up:


I think TiVo is one of the good guys, but their hands are tied.

Yeah, you're probably right. :)

[Justin Thyme]

Maybe Macrovision will install a low level layer into the bowels of an open source operating system?

....and maybe pigs will sprout wings and fly, too.

No, really... It could happen!
No really. Encryption algorithms do not have to rely on obscurity to function perfectly well. They can be published in open source form. Of course the algorithms that Macrovision would publish in this form would rely on a service to keep the certificates authenticated. This creates a dependency on a proprietary service that defeats the intent of open source, but it does not defeat the rule. IBM and AT&T have been playing other kinds of games with Linux that Macrovision or others could employ.

I'm not saying there would be any people accepting the changes into their code trees, and they would be regarded as a pariah, but technically it is possible and there is a good business model for doing it.

I seriously seriously doubt anyone will. I am just pointing out it is possible.
I do not see how DRM will get in there unless it is a specialized build for commercial purposes ALA TiVo.This exactly what I intended by my passage on macrovision linux, but the code could be fully released as well.

[kcm]

They COULD use a Trusted Computing Platform architecture to verify everything from the boot block up. Cryptographic routines cannot, in fact, rely on obscurity for operational strength, but they sure can use low-level hardware..

That being said, I think it'll have just as negative of an impact as this did. When will content providers stop treating consumers like children and realize we'll pay more when we get more, gladly?

[jmoak]

Draconian drm could make it's way as low level code into an open source operating system, and pigs may sprout wings and fly, too.

I seriously doubt they will. I am just pointing out that it is possible.

Now, as for a "Trusted Computing Platform"...
Do a goggle search on "trusted platform bios" and "palladium".

...and get ready to buy a parrot and don your eyepatch if you want video "Your Way" on your computer or mobile device if it comes to pass.

Support the EFF.
http://www.eff.org/

[Justin Thyme]

The point is not as useless as you make it seem. Windows Vista will not necessarily be the only game in town. There are many hardware vendors who wish to have control of their source code, and not to have to pay MS licence fees. Such a DRM version of Linux delivers that. Where there is a demand, there will be people to serve that demand. Because it is possible from both a technical and business perspective, it is not comparable to the technically impossible situation of pigs flying.

The reason I think it is unlikely is that are too few challengers that will take it far enough to be a serious enough challenger to gain the studios' confidence that will be awarded Windows Vista. Macrovision has the credibility and the relationship but the resources expended would be half hearted. Newcomers may have the balls but not the credibility. So there will be some biplanes jury rigged that will take to the air, but I think Vista is going to win the favor of the studios ultimately.

Paladium and other chip level bypasses of software only work if their advocates can prevent folks from using anything other than those sorts of chips. And that is not going to happen anytime this century, with the number of fab plants in countries that are all too happy to accomodate any demand out their regardless whether they wear eye patches.

We are agreed that people should not place their faith in the open source or mod community to be their ultimate protector of fair use rights. Nonetheless, I predict MythTv will be a thorn in the side of the studios for a very very long time to come.

Ultimately digital rights is a social, not a technical issue. The EFF is doing some good advocacy work and deserve our support.

[jmoak]

The point is not as useless as you make it seem. ...OkOk, I give.

I replaced "Linux" with "open source" in post #426 simply in an attempt to poke a little fun at you in an otherwise flailing eleven page thread. Even after trying to restate it in post #430, it still didn't work. Just another sad attempt at a bad joke on my part.

My bad.

But kcm's mention of a "Trusted Computing Platform" made the hair on the back of my neck stand up in fear. I should have put that in another post to separate it from my SJA (Sad Joke Attempt).

Again, My Bad.

[dt_dc]

A successful studio strategy will not rely on fixed emplacements like colorstriping or flags or a particular proprietary scheme.
(...)
A successful studio strategy will not rely on fickle and localized domestic governmental involvement.
(...)
This nonsense of using the DTV bill and the FCC as a bludgeon is as idiotic as the WWI generals who time and again wasted the lives of tens of thousands of brave men day after day, stubbornly refusing to believe that old tactics could not be used to fight a problem drastically alterred by technology.
(...)Ok ... so this thread started with Macrovision and wandered to the broadcast flag and is now wandering again.

Macrovision and the broadcast flag aren't intended to be an end-all-be-all-unbreakable form of protection. They certainly aren't the "center" of anyone's strategy either. Is the MPAA depending on Macrovision and Broadcast Flag for protecting HD-DVDs ... or as the basis for distributing content via cable and dbs ... or for their new download on demand content? No. They are specific things with specific purposes and specific reasons for being ...

Not relying on "localized domestic governmental involvement" and looking to market-driven solutions? How quaint. Many argued (for a variety of reasons including copy protection) that the gov't shouldn't force a DTV tranistion. That it should happen on its own market-driven pace. Of course ... that didn't happen. Many argued (for a variety of reasons including copy protection) that the gov't shouldn't get as invloved over what and how broadcasters used their new spectrum. That broadcasters should be able to (among other things) encrypt at the source if they were able to create a viable marketplace. Of course ... that didn't happen. DTV IS givernment involvement ... it's the government's quest for revenues that's driving it. So now the MPAA is so out of hand to look for more government involvement and ask for a broadcast flag?

Not relying on "fixed emplacements" and looking to more advanced forms of protection? Again ... all very well and good. Except of course when the government has said that you can't. Real/MS encrypted content can't be used on a broadcaster's primary DTV channel. For analog output and content (Macrovision) ... again, the MPAA asked the government not to get involved and let them use downrezzing and seletable output control and other methods if they came to a market driven solution for that ... and the FCC said no.

Now, I'm not saying that the MPAA should be given broadcast flag legislation (then again, I'm not saying they shouldn't). It CERTAINLY should not be attached to a budget reconcilliation bill (which is absolutely ridiculous). But OTOH I find the suggestion that asking for broadcast flag lesislation is somehow indicitive of an anachronistic MPAA not understanding technology or trends or distribution models or whatever else a bit ... laughable (no offense).

Perhaps the thin air is getting to you.

[ZeoTiVo]

we should encrypt this thread :rolleyes:

[MighTiVo]

Yes I have Series 2 TiVo Lajohn 27. If you read my post I left specific instructions on how to manually record shows WITHOUT having TiVo service just walk through the steps and use S-video or any other A/V cables except for coaxial (sorry I left that out) granted you dont get the channel info and title of the show but it works just like setting a VCR. Nuff said
Excelsior

The macrovision protection works even withut service and recordin with the video input unless you have a filter or Video Stabilizer installed such as these:
http://www.facetvideo.com/xcart/customer/home.php

[lajohn27]

Groggy:

I read your post again.. and I found your directions.

Cancel your service and try that. I guarantee on a series 2 box.. it doesn't work.

No recording features are enabled on Series 2 boxes without service. You can pause, rewind and ff TV and that's it.

You can downgrade your software to 4.0 and the Series 2 box.. and the results will be the same...

The only TIVO boxes that have non-service recording functions are Series 1 units that originally shipped with TIVO Software 1.3.

As for serial port for daily calls on 7.2 - mine works flawlessly.. have you rebooted the box since the intial 7.2 reboot?

My offer to buy your boxes still valid. :rolleyes:

J

[Justin Thyme]

Not relying on "localized domestic governmental involvement" and looking to market-driven solutions? How quaint. Many argued (for a variety of reasons including copy protection) that the gov't shouldn't force a DTV tranistion. That it should happen on its own market-driven pace. First, what I was focussed on with this passage was the global problem. I just don't see how what the FCC and the MPAA is advocating works as a global solution for protecting Studio IP.

Strong Operating system support for DRM is a more effective control which offers a global solution for a global market of studio intellectual property.

There is a silly debate in Europe about revising IP laws- essentially applying socialism to IP. I don't know if any of the Green intellectuals have yet become uneasy about the implications of undermining post industrial economies based on non polluting intellectual property focused businesses. If we focus our consumption on products that require highly skilled labor, and virtually no destruction of natural resources, then all is goodness and light. Subtract the ability to get a respectable return on the cost of producing those products, and we are returned to employing our people by rebuilding our smokestack industries.

Is that where we really want to go?

So protecting intellectual property is a really a love-hate relationship. I have been stewing on this for a few weeks, and am not coming up with anything brilliant. Congress has been mucking about quite a bit with broadcast flags in response to intense lobbying by the RIAA and MPAA.

Protection of IP can have two unintended consequences.

1) Gives the DRM vendor (and the studios by proxy) extensive leverage over the features of Consumer electronics devices.

2) Can be used as part of a vertical monopoly scheme- the practice of building cars that only run on a kind of gasoline sold by the same company.

To deal with both of these excesses, regulation of the DRM schemes is essential. It is clearly part of Congress's constitutional mandate to carry our regulatory responsibilities over interstate commerce, and part of their responsibility to voters to not become pawns of corporate attempts to use governmental action as part of anti competition and anti innovation schemes.

[dover471]

What do you think about red flagged content being recorded to a vcr?

I mean with that option you are just playing the content, right??

[megazone]

What do you think about red flagged content being recorded to a vcr?

I mean with that option you are just playing the content, right??
Right, that's the 'analog hole' in the system. Anything you can play via the analog outputs you can record on another device.

[Stormspace]

Right, that's the 'analog hole' in the system. Anything you can play via the analog outputs you can record on another device.

In the case of Macrovision this wouldn't work as the signal would be picked up by the VCR and introduce noise into the picture. Fading from light to dark.

[megazone]

In the case of Macrovision this wouldn't work as the signal would be picked up by the VCR and introduce noise into the picture. Fading from light to dark. That's easily resolved with a 'Video Stabilizer' from Radio Shack.

[Justin Thyme]

Sima is a popular choice. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3246091#post3246091

Besides correcting the color banding and gain control fake out signals, that will defeat the data flags embedded in the vertical blanking interval. The minus is that the box munges the signal a bit according to some video aficionados and will not deliver the best PQ. From the school of less is more, I mention in that same note a box which does nothing more than turn on or off the CGMS flags. So if you are up against flags and not the other signal problems, then that might be a better solution for those concerned with the highest possible PQ.

Something I didn't cover was problems with Veil Technologies embeded flags. Theoretically I'd guess that anything that deinterlaces or scales will probably work just fine at removing problems created by information embedded using this mechanism. I have not done any tests of this though due to the newness of the technique but if I ever run across it, I will report any workarounds I come across.

I think these sorts of things are meant as speedbumps designed to let people know they are pushing the limits of propriety if what they are unknowingly creating illegal copies of stuff. For those folks making a time shifted recording, they are simple to bypass.

[dover471]

What does everyone think...

We can timeshift because the Court said so in Sony, but that was dealing with an analog VCR...

Do you think we should still have the ability to timeshift now that we are able to capture copyrighted video in digital format??

[Justin Thyme]

It doesn't matter. People can, and they will timeshift in the privacy of their own homes.

The law will have a very hard time regulating what goes on in the home- so long as the content stays in the home.

It looks like the industry is ok with those parameters so really the debate may be interesting to legal academics and IP (intellectual property) anarchists, but is probably pointless for most folks.

[dover471]

I agree to an extent, but, as i am sure you are aware, there have been many developments lately (analog hole legislation, broadcast flags, macrovision) that potentially limit an indivduals ability to timeshift.

The possbility is that we may no longer have the ability to timeshift, or atleast to the extent that we want to, if little red flags start popping up on our TIVO, and then, even in the privacy of your home, your ability to timeshift will be limited.

[LynnL999]

What does everyone think...

We can timeshift because the Court said so in Sony, but that was dealing with an analog VCR...

Do you think we should still have the ability to timeshift now that we are able to capture copyrighted video in digital format??

Not that I understand why you're concerned about this one way or the other, but um... yeah! The basic principles of fair use are still the same. What does it matter to either party whether the format is analog or digital?

Before you say "it's easier to post digital stuff on the internet illegally" that isn't what I'm talking about -- only the legal use of timeshifting. The fact that something can be used illegally by someone willing to make an effort to do so shouldn't prevent it's legal use.

[dover471]

It matters because movie execs are getting increasingly worried about broadcasting movies over network tv in digital format. Up until now, with the upcoming mandate of digital broadcasting, hollywood has had a monopoly on movies in digital format through the sale of DVDs.

Now, with the tivo and HDTV, individuals can capture a digital movie instead of relying on the analog hole to make the movie digital, which inevitably loses atleast a little quality.

So, this is the difference, and the partys do care. Enter Macrovision.

[Justin Thyme]

I agree to an extent, but, as i am sure you are aware, there have been many developments lately (analog hole legislation, broadcast flags, macrovision) that potentially limit an indivduals ability to timeshift.

The possbility is that we may no longer have the ability to timeshift, or atleast to the extent that we want to, if little red flags start popping up on our TIVO, and then, even in the privacy of your home, your ability to timeshift will be limited.Well, to what extent?
"Analog hole legislation"- there are drafts circulated by MPAA. Drafts. They always have done this. What is new here? Besides- assume for the sake of argument congress passes the law exactly as RIAA and MPAA have specified. How does congress prevent anyone from doing something in the privacy of their own homes?
"Broadcast flags"- as trivial to bypass as the old macrovision protection- same device too- Sima video stabilizer from Compusa.
"Macrovision"- been around for eons, easily bypassed.
"Potentially limit"? What potential? Theoretically anything is dangerous. Sure the lobbying should be watched closely but EFF is doing a good job sending out alerts when significant developments arice. Is there more than generic anxieties here? There are no actual or near term realistic limits to timeshift.

"The possibility is that we may no longer have the ability to timeshift..." You keep asserting there is a some possiblity. Tell me how. Please consult bypassing options found in note 158 (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3246091&highlight=sima#post3246091).

You keep buying into the "analog hole" phrase as if it were somehow descriptive of the situation- As if it were, like a hole pluggable. It is inherently impossible because soon or later any encoding scheme no matter how diabolical and ingeneous has to be translated into images I can see. Somewhere around that point, novice pirates will be able to redigitize it and distribute it in encrypted form on the net in informal dark net networks.

The content industry cannot plug the so called "analog hole". The best they can hope for is to work with this technology trend rather than attempt to repress it's affects with legislation and DRM techniques.

[ZeoTiVo]

It matters because movie execs are getting increasingly worried about broadcasting movies over network tv in digital format. Up until now, with the upcoming mandate of digital broadcasting, hollywood has had a monopoly on movies in digital format through the sale of DVDs.

Now, with the tivo and HDTV, individuals can capture a digital movie instead of relying on the analog hole to make the movie digital, which inevitably loses atleast a little quality.

So, this is the difference, and the partys do care. Enter Macrovision.

actually content providers are moving to get ahead of the dark networks by starting up internet distribution of their own and gaining some ground on how to monetize this form of distribution. They saw from the music industry that fighting the pirates head on was just a big drain on resources with limited actual results and mixed PR results.

now the legitimate music stores are getting major traction and pirating has dropped back out of the mainstream.

just the past few weeks have seen legal video distribution on the internet gain considerable attention and choices. I predict it will grow even more and just as quickly. The only real question for the courts is how long is a reasonable timeshift - one week , one month one year ?? that question along with the implication of creating archives of "permanently timeshifted" material was deliberately NOT addressed in the SONY case.

[josekelso]

Hello,

I write you from Spain.
I have a consulting firm and one of our clients (from France) is looking for information on HBO on Demand, with screen shots of the different Menus.
We will pay to have the screen shots of the different menus, how to select the show you want and how do you feel it from a users point of view.

We are pretty hurried. If this can interest any of you (cheap and easy money) please contact us

Thanks,
Jose

[DocNo]

I have a consulting firm and one of our clients (from France) is looking for information on HBO on Demand, with screen shots of the different Menus.

Oooh ohh! You too could be an industrial spy!

Wow, all kinds of things going down at AVS forum...

[josekelso]

No, no, no industrial SPY (if so I would've my self traveled to the States to do the shots. Good oportunity indeed).

I am just looking for the screen shots. In France there is a service that works very well called Noos (cable and Interactive TV) and there is the new TV by using the ADSL service via Telephone line and a big Modem (called MaLigne TV or Free).

I guess that our client is looking just for the look and feel, how many hits do you need to get the content,... BUt from a Marketing and final user point of view.

So if you're interested we can talk...

[doulos12]

OK, when I heard about all this a couple months ago, I pulled the phone cord out of my DirecTV TiVo. Now, I can't get software updates (problem solved), but I also can't get Pay-Per-View (New problem). Will this software update apply to all TiVo machines? Mine is an older one (Got it a year ago) w/o TTG, no HD, etc.

[Turtleboy]

OK, when I heard about all this a couple months ago, I pulled the phone cord out of my DirecTV TiVo. Now, I can't get software updates (problem solved), but I also can't get Pay-Per-View (New problem). Will this software update apply to all TiVo machines? Mine is an older one (Got it a year ago) w/o TTG, no HD, etc.

None of this effects DirectTivos.

You pulled the cord out for nothing.

(And even if it did effect it, you still pulled the cord out for nothing).

[lajohn27]

Wow.. Whatever happened to all these posters who were going to put their TIVO's on EBAY over this.. I guess they did.. cause they haven't been back to post about how this problem is the end of TIVO as we know it..

[ Don't worry - that cause can now be found in THIS thread.. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3510329&posted=1#post3510329 ]

[doulos12]

None of this effects DirectTivos.

You pulled the cord out for nothing.
So I can do my dial-in and not worry that PPV events will not be saved? I often take a month or more to get through a movie, and I don't want to pay for a movie and then not see some or all of it.

(And even if it did effect it, you still pulled the cord out for nothing).
How so?

[lajohn27]

The DIRECTV system calls in for PPV reporting purposes only.

AFAIK -- the software upgrades and what have you are included in the stream (signal) to the receiver.

Lastly - If you have a 6.2 software.. you already have macrovision.

J

[samkuhn]

So if Tivo's use of Macrovision is, say, making the picture less clear, will a "video clarifier" box placed between the digital cable box and the Tivo remove this lack of clarity?

e.g.
http://www.facetvideo.com/xcart/customer/product.php?productid=83&cat=26&page=1

Or is the Macrovision protocol used by the Tivo different from the one used on VHS tapes?

[lajohn27]

Well I'm no expert. But the Macrovision in use on the TIVO platform appears to be a code in the VBI that restricts recordings and usage of the resulting recordings if permitted.

This does NOT appear to be the same thing as the Automatic Gain Control style protection. In that setup, something in the vertical blanking interval is rapidly adjusted to screw with the AGC and therefore the video signal - which generally degrades slightly as a result.

J

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Well I'm no expert. But the Macrovision in use on the TIVO platform appears to be a code in the VBI that restricts recordings and usage of the resulting recordings if permitted.

This does NOT appear to be the same thing as the Automatic Gain Control style protection. In that setup, something in the vertical blanking interval is rapidly adjusted to screw with the AGC and therefore the video signal - which generally degrades slightly as a result.

I think you're right, but it's worth noting that TiVo will recognize the AGC/ColorStripe flavors of Macrovision as well, because of their original license, although I believe the only thing the box will do with it is restore it on output (in other words, to prevent the TiVo itself from being used as a device to strip Macrovision out.)

[jkeese01]

I downloaded a few shows using my TiVo desktop when it first came out. This feature could be usefully, but it does take time to transfer the recordings from TiVo to PC.

I will gladly give up the ability to copy shows from TiVo to PC if that will end the copy control over content by the network and local stations.

TiVoToGo is kind of obsolete now with the new Slingbox.

Jim

[rainwater]

TiVoToGo is kind of obsolete now with the new Slingbox.

I hardly see how the two are related. TTG can be used for archival purposes, as well as allowing you to take a DVD (or your laptop) with you when you are without any type of internet access at all. Slingbox is awesome, but I don't see how the two are related.

[megazone]

Yeah, while the Slingbox is neat, it only helps if you have a solid network connection where and when you want to watch something - AND you're not going to be causing problems for someone else at home.

With TTG you can move shows to a laptop, iPod, PSP, PMC, PDA, etc, and watch them anywhere, any time. Since you can move shows to a PC and back, you can setup a media server to store shows indefinitely.

[peterapp42]

Tivo's latest software update is preventing the coping of HD recorded movies from my hard drive to the built in DVD recorder. Analyzed this by connecting the Tivo up to a Dazzle and plugged the dazzle into a macintosh. Then used Imovie. Examine the movie now located in Imovie reveled a vertical line of data dots and dashes on the right of the video. I used a data analyzers and found these to be a program which disables the dvd drive from performing a copy. Prof, recored an infomercial to HD then copied the infomercial to DVD. The copy worked. Played the infomercial into the mac with the dazzle and the dots and dashes were not visible. conclusion: Its time to drop Tivo and move into a media center which records the videos into a mac using quicktime compression. There is no DRM on QT and this will prevent the movie industry from blocking the DVD burning. After all, I only want to move these videos off of my tivo so I can watch them on my mac book while on air planes or traveling. So a mac mini and a USB I/R to change the channels and the DVR hardware is on my shopping list. The termination of paying tivo will happen next week.

[stevel]

G'wan, pull the other one.... "dots and dashes... a program which disables the dvd drive"?!?!?! Thanks for the laugh.

[megazone]

This sounds like BS. There is NOTHING in the new TiVo software to disable DVD burns. I own two DVD units.

[jfh3]

"reveled (sic) a vertical line of data dots and dashes on the right of the video. I used a data analyzers and found these to be a program which disables the dvd drive from performing a copy.

And if you watch the video, your Tivo will immediately turn into a toaster.

Hope you're not relying too heavily on those data analyzers ...

[ZeoTiVo]

I used a data analyzers and found these to be a program :D :D :D :D :D :D


Have fun scheduling season apsses on your Mac mini

[petew]

This sounds like BS. There is NOTHING in the new TiVo software to disable DVD burns. I own two DVD units.

Actually not entirely true. If the Macrovision copy protect flags get set as previously discussed at great length. Both TivoToGo and Save to DVD are disabled.

[Stormspace]

:D :D :D :D :D :D


Have fun scheduling season apsses on your Mac mini

Actually, if he wanted to he could use MythTV on his Mac. Of course finding supported hardware and setting the thing up would be a bear. And MythTV does have season passes. I'd be using it myself if I could justify the 200 for a compatible tuner card. :)

[ZeoTiVo]

Actually, if he wanted to he could use MythTV on his Mac. Of course finding supported hardware and setting the thing up would be a bear. And MythTV does have season passes. I'd be using it myself if I could justify the 200 for a compatible tuner card. :)


Yep. I think Apple corp is leaning heavily toward the download model from iTunes and not so much in the direction of making yet another DVR/Media center no matter how well Apple might make one.

So any DVR like functions will be from 3rd party sources.

[megazone]

Actually not entirely true. If the Macrovision copy protect flags get set as previously discussed at great length. Both TivoToGo and Save to DVD are disabled.Yes, but that's not *new*. There is nothing in the new software that disables DVD burning, which is what the poster was implying. That the 7.3/7.3.1 update changed something and blocked burning. That's been in there since 5.x, the original DVD software branch.

[petew]

Yes, but that's not *new*. There is nothing in the new software that disables DVD burning, which is what the poster was implying. That the 7.3/7.3.1 update changed something and blocked burning. That's been in there since 5.x, the original DVD software branch.

OK I just parsed your statement differently. I read "there's nothing in the new software" to mean the whole package, changes made in 7.3/7.31 and all the exisiting code still in 7.31. While re-reading you statement I realize you were refering to the delta between 7.2.2 and 7.3 not adding anything new that alters the users ability to create DVD's. However this doesn't preclude the coincidence of the cable co turning on the Macrovision copy protection flags around the same time Tivo pushed the 7.3 upgrade.

[palomino]

have had a toshiba rs-tx60 for a couple of years now, and only occasionally did this problem come up (e.g. showtime sent out a signal to make one episode of "weeds" "non-copy-able"; fx did it with one episode of "over there"). But now it's on every non-broadcast channel. I have DirecTV, and live in NY. I called them; they claimed never to have gotten this complaint. These forums say otherwise. I tried contacting TiVo; they claim I have to go to Toshiba or DirecTV (I did e-mail Toshiba). This is jive! Must we all now get anti-macrovision, "video stabilizer" devices? Anybody?!

[bh757]

Because it did it on mine too. I have a series 3 and after the show (ANY) show finished recording, it would delete it 2 hours later. You could not extend the hold time, nor add 'Untill I Delete" to it.

May be the cable company doing this through validation though. I will let you know tomorrow when the cable company does their thing.

[GoHokies!]

Because it did it on mine too. I have a series 3 and after the show (ANY) show finished recording, it would delete it 2 hours later. You could not extend the hold time, nor add 'Untill I Delete" to it.

May be the cable company doing this through validation though. I will let you know tomorrow when the cable company does their thing.
:confused:

Who are you talking to? This thread died a year ago. If your S3 is doing this for every show, than your cable company is (illegally) setting the copy protection bit.

[ZeoTiVo]

:confused:

Who are you talking to? This thread died a year ago.

I say Kudos to the new poster for using the right thread to figure out the issue that is killing all his shows after two hours. That would be a really crappy thing to have happen.

bh757 - hold the cable companies feet to the fire on this, they may not even know what it is they are doing at first and thus honestly deny it is of their doing since they do not know they are doing it. Ask them to check for any recent changes in boradcasting equipment.

[MighTiVo]

:confused:

Who are you talking to? This thread died a year ago. If your S3 is doing this for every show, than your cable company is (illegally) setting the copy protection bit.

His first post was here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=360789