Best non Tivo PVR in UK? [Text View]

sammoj

07-08-2005, 08:40 AM

Hi

Tivo is still the best by far. However for a dual Freeview box (without Topup TV support) I would recommend the Thomson DHD4000. A superb machine that has proved well worth the investment since the recent software upgrade.

Alas, no season pass facility but can do repeat recordings like a vcr.

Good quality video, fast, good interface and easy to use. Gets my vote, after Tivo of course.

Can get a little hot though, I would recommend that you prop it up on 4 feet to raise the height like I did, seems to run a lot cooler when higher up from the surface
John

alextegg

07-08-2005, 08:53 AM

Depends on budget too, I guess, as I'd argue the 'best' dual freeview solution at present would be MCE, but that's not cheap!!!

Alex

sammoj

07-08-2005, 09:03 AM

Depends on budget too, I guess, as I'd argue the 'best' dual freeview solution at present would be MCE, but that's not cheap!!!

Alex

Ah...the words "best" and "microsoft" in the same sentance LOL :D

Good point...assuming 2nd hand Tivo prices then the Thomson DHD4000 should be in the shops at about the same as a non-subbed box, £150.

Digifusion are meant to be good as well, but had no experience of them.

While on the subject of good Computer/Freeview boxes, my son has just purchased an Elgato EyeTV for his iMac and the quality is amazing. Only single tuner and must have a mac, but supports topuptv.

I don't know of any consumer Freeview PVR with topuptv cam slot, anybody know one?

John

Ian_m

07-08-2005, 09:15 AM

I know someone whose got a Topfield TF5800PVR, absolutely the mutt nuts apparently. Dual DTT tuner, can record two channels whilst watching something else recorded. It just works. Can do something like record two channels, display a 3rd and 4th as picture in picture as well. Oh has a CAM slot as well.

He got this after being extremely disappointed after trying out numerous PVR offerings, Humax, Philips DVDR etc and others, tooks them all back (including Argos) and got full refunds (except Pace, which died). All suffered from crap interface, failed recordings, poor or non-existant EPG, limted capacity, ability to not watch something else whilst recording....etc etc.

Anyway he is chuffed, but about £300 ligher off. Oh connects to his portable PC via USB allowing you to transfer recordings straight to hard disk. Can also upload MP3's etc. Hasn't really played much as it is used to record and watch TV !!!

Anyway details here:-
http://www.topfield.co.kr/

UK user group here, + loads of add on modules.
http://www.toppy.org.uk/

Automan

07-08-2005, 09:19 AM

Sky+
Sagem PVR6240T (for Freeview)
Or in 4 months time a Sky HDTV box.

Automan.

cyril

07-08-2005, 09:41 AM

Digitalspy forum guys also rave about the topfield.

However I think I will wait 5 years for the Topfield to catch up in functionality with my TiVos, or until it drops to 50 quid or less.

blindlemon

07-08-2005, 09:51 AM

There is currently no such thing as a non-TiVo PVR :)

The other machines mentioned above are basic DVRs only and have none of the advanced functionality found in even a "secondhand" TiVo.

If your friend wants something brand new then he won't get a PVR - unless TiVo come back into the UK with a Series 2....

If he wants a PVR then he's going to have to swallow his pride and buy something secondhand. It's not that bad.... really;)

Put it to him like this: "What car would you prefer for the same price, a used M3, or a brand new Lada...?". The same argument applies to TiVos and other DVRs.

Ian_m

07-08-2005, 09:55 AM

My mate didn't want to buy a TiVo "as it was old technology", he wanted to buy something newer and more wizzo, thinking he would get something better than a TiVo. Well the Topfield is good, but nowhere near the usability of a TiVo.

The thing that makes the TiVo is its EPG, which is very sadly lacking in other PVR's, probably because its "free".

Oh we just wait in anticipation of the relaunch of TiVo UK :D

leejordan

07-08-2005, 11:37 AM

I currently own a Tivo and a DigiFusion FVRT150 which is destined for my parents.

I have to say that the FVRT150 is excellent simply because it just works. Being able to record two channels was really handy when both Wimbledon and Live8 were on at the same time.

The FVRT150 suffers from the same problem as the Tivo in that it's EPG cannot cope with schedule changes, such as occur with Wimbledon, Live8, and terrorist attacks, but it is free, compared to either £10pm or an extra £200 for the Tivo.

I think that the new FVRT200 can handle repeat recordings.

The Topfield sounds good. Check out the various Forums on Digitalspy.

I think that if you are happy to sit down for 15 mins a week with a copy of the Radio Times, then the loss of Season Passes is bearable.

There are, obviously, several other drawbacks to not having a Tivo, especially one connected to a network, but if you've never had it then you'll never miss it!

Lee.

ndunlavey

07-09-2005, 02:26 PM

There is a great comparative summary of twin-tuner PVRs at http://www.emsee.co.uk/pvr/.

I'm holding on for an Inverto IDL 7000 for my parents - ordered in APril, expect it to arrive this week.

sanderton

07-09-2005, 02:49 PM

The only options if you want Season Pass equivalents with Freeview are Media Center (expensive, a bit fragile, very powerful) and the Topfield (software held together with string and rubber bands even compared to a hacked TiVo, only crude text matching wishlist equivalents with no de-duping).

ndunlavey

07-09-2005, 04:30 PM

Good point, Stuart. If I were buying something from scratch for myself now, I'd be looking at a TiVo and two FV STBs, to get adequately rich functionality.

My 'rents are a bit box-phobic, and need a simple all-in-one solution, hence the Inverto.

Raisltin Majere

07-09-2005, 05:59 PM

of the forum from one of the links posted above.

There seem to be a lot of "toppy's great but..." posts/responses.

I say "TiVo's great". Significant lack of the word "but".

Also here seems to be a few "hacks" for the Toppy but these only seem to bring the toppy to about 50% as functional as a TiVo. Think about that, tell your friend. People are hacking the thing and it's still nowhere near as good as the "old" technology he so disdains.

There's even a post saying (to paraphrase) "I'd sell my toppy tomorrow if there was a UK dual tuner TiVo". I imagine these UK PVR forums would soon evaporate if TiVo re-entered the UK (if they've learnt anything about marketing that is).

Oh, and NDunlavey, whats the point in having 2 STBs and one TiVO? Does that enable you to watch one and record another? In that case could I add a FV STB to my existing cable/TiVo set up and watch the free stuff whilst TiVo records from the cable? If so, How come I can't use RF input and cable together?

Sorry, not meant to be a hijack.

Raist

PS feel free to tell me how to spell "disdains"

ndunlavey

07-10-2005, 02:01 AM

Oh, and NDunlavey, whats the point in having 2 STBs and one TiVO? Does that enable you to watch one and record another?Um, yes. Plug one STB into the TiVo, and the other into the TV. TiVo records off one, you have free use of the other to watch what you want. It's exactly what I was doing while I was still using my TiVo to watch TV.

I say "TiVo's great". Significant lack of the word "but".... but ...
... doesn't have twin tuners.
... compresses the video stream before writing to disk.
... has to make a daily phone call rather than responding to real-time changes in the EPG
... can only save to DVD at normal speed
... you have to take it apart to connect it to your LAN
... is a *big* ugly box

Don't get me wrong - TiVo is my tool of choice, but lets not get *too* rose-tinted about it. :)

Automan

07-10-2005, 02:31 AM

A sort of PVR and on offer at QVC today http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=248598

Automan.

Restorer

07-10-2005, 03:05 AM

Digitalspy forum guys also rave about the topfield.

However I think I will wait 5 years for the Topfield to catch up in functionality with my TiVos, or until it drops to 50 quid or less.

So can someone explain why it is that other companies have not been able to match (or even surpass by now) Tivo's software - especially Sky+. Surely they know what Tivo does and indeed why it has so many devotees.

ndunlavey

07-10-2005, 03:20 AM

I'm guessing they don't see the payback on the R&D costs. For now, such numbers of Joe Punter as are using Freeview are maybe looking for somethign that does with FV what his VCR used to do with analogue. Only when he's got comfortbale with that, and realised what having this stuff on disk, driven from the EPG, means, will he be open to thinking about whizzy stuff. And I bet they are nervous that by then Microsoft will have the market sewn up.

blindlemon

07-10-2005, 03:27 AM

... but ...
... doesn't have twin tuners.Get two TiVos :D:D

... compresses the video stream before writing to disk.This is only a negative if you are obsessive about PQ and always want to record *everything* in absolute best quality. However, Mode 0 at high bitrates looks close enough to the original on my 42" plasma that I can't see the difference in normal viewing, and even though I have upgraded my disc capacity, I still record 95% of movies in "high" (Mode 0 though) all sitcoms in "medium" and most kids programmes in "basic". You can't do that with a direct-stream recorder :up:

... has to make a daily phone call rather than responding to real-time changes in the EPGWhich affects about 0.1% of programmes.
... can only save to DVD at normal speedNot if you have a network card and a DVD writer in your PC;)
... is a *big* ugly boxThat's a matter of opinion. However, if you don't like the look of it you can always hide it away round the back of your TV.

Now, then, let's talk about TiVo's plus points....

Ahhh, but of course, I guess we already know them :)

ndunlavey

07-10-2005, 03:36 AM

Get two TiVos
Or just one TiVo and two STBs - covers most of the bases.
Yup, most of the other problems with TiVo someone with the right skills and bravery can fix by taking it apart, adding network hardware, putting new stuff onto the disk, and then hacking away. But most people don't want to do that - they just want a box that does what they want. TiVo's kind of accessibility is never going to be more than a niche interest.
if you don't like the look of it you can always hide it away round the back of your TV
Maybe TiVo could use that line in the next marketing campaign? ;)

Anyway, as I said - TiVo is my tool of choice, but that doesn't mean it couldn't better.

cyril

07-10-2005, 03:53 AM

So can someone explain why it is that other companies have not been able to match (or even surpass by now) Tivo's software - especially Sky+. Surely they know what Tivo does and indeed why it has so many devotees.

They just dont think that software is important enough.

Current so-called PVRs are like having 10 Ghz triple core pentium 5 or Athlons, but running DOS 1.
There is so much they COULD do, but cannot due to software limitations.

A TiVo is like a pentium 3 running Xp or a G4 running OS X at 2 ghz.

The other dvr companies hardware is fantastic but their software is not so good.

A bit like having a GT40 that breaks down every hour, and is too wide for our roads.

Financial and commercial companies will pay millions of pounds for software, which usually costs hundreds of thousands of pounds to develop.

I guess DVR companies dont want to spend that kind of money on software development as hardware is cheaper and the consumer isnt smart enough to realise how important the software is. They probably do not think that people will pay extra for better software.
As a concept it is difficult to explain.
Hardware is much easier - i.e. dual tuners, smaller size box.
Ease of use and ergonomics is also difficult to sell.
The Treo and Blackberry smartphones may not have the best specs, but their ease of use and ergonomic factors mean that they have legions of devotees like the Tivo.

However all that hardware is fairly useless without reliable good quality software that makes the product easy to use and maintain.

TiVo also hold a number of patents so other companies will have to pay them or spend a lot of money developing software.

Paul Stimpson

07-10-2005, 03:53 AM

Hi,

So can someone explain why it is that other companies have not been able to match (or even surpass by now) Tivo's software - especially Sky+. Surely they know what Tivo does and indeed why it has so many devotees.
If I understand corrently TiVo have patents on many of these features and other manufacturers therefore can't replicate them without paying a licence fee to TiVo. I would guess that either TiVo is not willing to licence these features as they are what makes the US TiVo product better than its competitors or that the price TiVo wants for such licenses are more than the other manufacturers are prepared to pay.

There is also the issue that for TiVo to do what it does it needs a supply of good quality guide data (No... Please don't turn this into a Tribune are crap discussion! :eek: ) which includes genre information and cast/crew info to match against wishlists. Any manufacturer wanting to take on the TiVo patents would have to provide a source of this info if the service guide data didn't give it. I don't think most hardware companies would want to go there!

All the best,
Paul.

alextegg

07-10-2005, 03:58 AM

the next marketing campaign? ;)

Doesn't that imply rather a lot :D :p

sanderton

07-10-2005, 05:35 AM

So can someone explain why it is that other companies have not been able to match (or even surpass by now) Tivo's software - especially Sky+. Surely they know what Tivo does and indeed why it has so many devotees.

It's because the software needs a proper EPG database containing epiosode, series and genre metadata to work from to be able to do what TiVo does, and the other systems don't have access to one.

The Freeview EPG has no metadata and what there is is not broadcast in a coherent way - the Topfield wishlist hack has to tune to each channel in turn in the small hours and save a copy of the EPG for each channel before it can work.

Similarly Sky's EPG is designed to have limited information held in RAM on a regular box; there is no database on Sky+'s hard disk for it to analyse. Series Links are "next showing is at this date and time" hard coded by the broadcaster into the info for each show which has them.

EPGs that can do TiVo's tricks cost money to create, which is why you either pay £10 a month for TiVos, or you're Microsoft and can absorb it as a marketing cost. I believe some of the new Freeview machines will have an ad-funded EPG which might solve the problem, althoughi'd rather pay the money!

There is a free, data rich EPG in development called TV Anytime which will enable Freeview PVRs with TiVo-like functionality to be built, but it's a long way from being rolled out yet. Our own aerialplug is developing it, so i'm sure he can explain better.

sanderton

07-10-2005, 05:42 AM

Hi,

If I understand corrently TiVo have patents on many of these features and other manufacturers therefore can't replicate them without paying a licence fee to TiVo. I would guess that either TiVo is not willing to licence these features as they are what makes the US TiVo product better than its competitors or that the price TiVo wants for such licenses are more than the other manufacturers are prepared to pay.

I don't think the patent thing is that important. Certainly other systems exist which have all or most of TiVos functionality; just they are not available here (with the exception of MCE).

Restorer

07-10-2005, 05:52 AM

That makes sense to me now, Stuart. Thanks.

cwaring

07-10-2005, 08:25 AM

There is a free, data rich EPG in development called TV Anytime which will enable Freeview PVRs with TiVo-like functionality to be built, but it's a long way from being rolled out yet. Our own aerialplug is developing it, so i'm sure he can explain better.
http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2005/06/7_day_bbc_tv_an_1.html

iankb

07-10-2005, 10:05 AM

While TV Anytime may well work for FreeView channels, I can't see Sky ever supporting that format for the additional channels on Satellite and Cable, since they can tie people into using Sky+ with their proprietary EPG. I think it's about time that we contracted the Russian Mafia to develop an alternative access to the Sky platform. ;)

Anndra

07-11-2005, 06:56 AM

I thought Sky was the Russian Mafia?

sammoj

07-11-2005, 04:51 PM

I thought Sky was the Russian Mafia?

Well they certainly can be difficult to leave their company! It took me a 25 minute phone call before they finally agreed to terminate my account.

Then I get a £2 phone charge for the privilege as they use an 0870 number which is not covered by my unlimited package!!!

J

jed

10-31-2005, 10:21 AM

Maybe a little off topic, but I'm for helping people leave sky, check out http://www.saynoto0870.co.uk/search.php a quick search on Sky reveals a number of alternative non 0870 numbers for them.

cyril

10-31-2005, 12:30 PM

ChrisH

11-01-2005, 05:09 PM

Maybe a little off topic, but I'm for helping people leave sky, check out http://www.saynoto0870.co.uk/search.php a quick search on Sky reveals a number of alternative non 0870 numbers for them.

very nice website - thank you!

6022tivo

11-01-2005, 05:23 PM

Apparently the NEW Humax PVR9200T

Twin tuner, USB 2 Port.. etc. look up the spec..

It is new, only just out, apparently quite good, under £200

sanderton

11-02-2005, 03:58 AM

Humax - you can't play a recording from the start while it's still recording and it only has 20 (manually set) timers, there seems to be a one in 5 chance of video extracted via USB being corrupted....

The only options worth thinking about are MCE, Sky+ and the Topfield.

Sneals2000

11-02-2005, 05:04 AM

Yep - MCE or the Topfield seem to be the two choices for decent dual-tuner, Freeview functionality. I haven't got a Toppy, but the people I know who have rave about it.

You can even bung it on Ethernet to get video off it using a hacked Linksys NSLU2 NAS adaptor.

jed

11-03-2005, 04:40 PM

Does anyone know if the Toppy is able to record programmes by title out of the box, or does it need a TAP to do so. If it does need a TAP, is it a one off PC connection, or do you have to set it up from a PC for every season pass?
I 'm sure I saw something on the turbosat website the other day which suggested it could record by title, but can't find it now.
I need a decent replacement for my STB (as opposed to Tivo's STB), which has broken (usual 221T problems) and may as well go for one with HDD.
I'm not sure I want to get into TAPs (or pay £280), unless I can easily do something akin to season passes.
There is loads of info about the Toppy out there, but alas not all understandable to me at this stage.
Thanks in anticipation.
Jed

sanderton

11-04-2005, 03:22 AM

It needs a TAP to do the equivalent of a keyword wishlist. There is no equivalent of SPs. It also needs to do some really convoluted auto switch-on and retuning to various channels in order to build the EPG first!

I think TAPs are installed over a USB connection, but I could be wrong.

DX30

11-04-2005, 08:09 AM

Sneals2000

11-04-2005, 05:48 PM

You copy TAP's onto the Topfield via the USB connection. Any you put in the Autostart folder will be run automatically.

The most popular for recording by title is JAG's EPG TAP. It provides an alternative EPG, and can also automatically record by keyword match. The search can be refined by time and channel, but is still limited by lack of meta data in the Freeview EPG data. This solution will operate stand-alone, although you'll need a PC to install the TAP.

It's also possible to use the internet based Digiguide. You can use Digiguide on a PC to do the searches and prepare a timer list of desired recordings. This can then be downloaded onto the Topfield and imported via a TAP such as UK Timers. This is more powerful than JAG's EPG, but its ongoing reliance on a PC may be an issue.

Do these work over Ethernet if you use a Linksys NSLU2 Ethernet->USB NAS (ideally with a Wifi AP) solution with the Topfield interface software flashed onto it? If the Toppy could be neatly remotely controlled by Digiguide over a network that would be a neat solution. Having to have it directly connected using USB is a bit less desirable I would have though.

DX30

11-05-2005, 06:37 AM

I believe setting from Digiguide over the network using a modifed Linksys router works, although I personally haven't tried it.

I have networked my Toppy using a modified Asus wireless router but I use that to copy TAP's, MP3's and recordings, not for Digiguide. I use my TiVo as my main pvr, and programme the Toppy manually if I have conflicts.

HappyHiker

04-10-2006, 10:36 AM

I've just bought a Toppy after going through 2 Digifusion FVRT's in 2 weeks, both hung, didn't record and were generally rubbish. The topfield seems really good. The interface is a bit complicated and isn't as intuative as the TiVo, but there are regular firmware updates that seem to have fixed all the major bugs. I was going to install a load of taps after reading forums, but everything seems to be fixed already.

Out the box you have to record by time/channel which is a slightly surreal experience after having a TiVo for 3/4 years. But you do get to see what is actually on telly these days, I just record everything by title on the tivo so I've no idea what the schedules are.

No season passes obviously, but you can do repeat recordings which generally covers most programs.The one thing I will try is JAG's EPG which gives the search by title feature .

The picture quality is excellent, the TiVo even with bit 0 mode noticably degrades the picture and makes things too bright. Having said that I still use the TiVo downstairs on the plasma and the toppy in the spare room.

Also the toppy costs £250 for 160GB, my tivo cost £150 3/4 years ago + 200 for a sub. I think the toppy's great, definately the best of new breed PVR's but the TiVo is still king.

KiNeL

04-10-2006, 02:35 PM

Well they certainly can be difficult to leave their company! It took me a 25 minute phone call before they finally agreed to terminate my account.

Then I get a £2 phone charge for the privilege as they use an 0870 number which is not covered by my unlimited package!!!

J

Off topic I know but next time you need to call an 0845/0870 number try this site......

www.saynoto0870.com/search.php

Oops, just posted this and scrolled up to see exactly the same advice..............!

Great minds !