Suggestion: If it has 3 thumbs down, I never want to see it

[Mike Farrington]

I hate it when I turn on my TV and see programming that I personally despise, like professional wrestling and religious programming to name two.

So I'm suggesting a new functionality for TiVo to adopt. If a new program starts while the TiVo is idle, and it has three thumbs down, then turn the channel.

Parents can use it to keep their kids from turning on the TV and seeing an insipid cartoon with no redeeming qualities (which of course the kid would watch in its entirty just because its a cartoon).

Personally, If I never have to see Judge Judy's face ever again, I can die a happy man.

What do you say TiVo? Three strikes and the channel gets changed automatically. Just jump to whatever the suggestion engine says I might like. It doesn't have to record, but just jump to it.

-Mike

[DavidSTiVo]

I second the motion! All in favor?

[Jonathan_S]

And if they implement this they should extend it so that a wishlist doesn't record anything with three thumbs down.

[Greg K.]

And if they implement this they should extend it so that a wishlist doesn't record anything with three thumbs down.

The lack of features like this is why I turned off suggestions a long time ago.

[hc130radio]

The lack of features like this is why I turned off suggestions a long time ago.

No doubt! i turned off suggestions after my first 2 days of having tivo.

[rcapolete]

great in theory but what happens when you accidently press thumbs down lets say when the tv is off (tivo fuctions still works as we all know.) Then you start missing show that you would otherwise like to watch.

[ZeoTiVo]

A very nice idea, especially the way to exclude things from autorecord wishlists but TiVo has better things to work on.

as others have said it would mean they would have to give you a way to manage your thumb ratings and that opens a whole nother kettle of fish of a lot more coding to make it all work.

[jkalnin]

great in theory but what happens when you accidently press thumbs down lets say when the tv is off (tivo fuctions still works as we all know.) Then you start missing show that you would otherwise like to watch.

He said that for 3 thumbs down to change the channel, not just one. If you accidentally push a button three times then you have a twitchy finger issue. :p

[mdsutherland]

Why not just push the Tivo button before you turn on the TV? Then there is no chance of seeing anything that might bother you.

[mdsutherland]

And if they implement this they should extend it so that a wishlist doesn't record anything with three thumbs down.

I do like this idea!! That doesn't seem like it would be that hard to do either.

[ZeoTiVo]

I do like this idea!! That doesn't seem like it would be that hard to do either.


it would be a major change to thumbs and wishlists. two different systems. It would be a lot of work to design , implement and test. That alone is not a reason to say don't do this but it will be a lot more then adding a line of code
if thumbs(DOWN).numberIs(3) then Wishlist.doNotSchedule()

[rainwater]

I would expect my auto-record wishlists to record everything no matter what the thumbs rating is. If it didn't, I would not be that happy.

[Moebius]

I would expect my auto-record wishlists to record everything no matter what the thumbs rating is. If it didn't, I would not be that happy.

A good example of why TiVo leaves well enough alone in cases like this. It's impossible to please all the people all the time. Two posters above want thumbs to overrider wishlists. Rainwater doesn't.

Next people will ask TiVo to read minds. "There's a 3 thumbs down show coming up in two hours. The remote hasn't been touched in a while, but I've got a hunch they'll be coming home soon, so I better change the channel now".

Note, not an attack on anyone, just pointing out that it's impossible to make it exactly the way everybody wants it because not everybody wants the same. What if a 3 thumbs down is following a sports program that runs long while you're watching live. Then the TiVo is going to pop up and ask to change channel (or by the OP, just do it). Too many variables.

[mmascari]

And if they implement this they should extend it so that a wishlist doesn't record anything with three thumbs down.

The lack of features like this is why I turned off suggestions a long time ago.

What do these two have to do with each other?

Suggestions will not record anything with even one thumbs down now. The only thing the thumbs ratings have any impact on is Suggestions. If you don't use Suggestions, then the thumbs buttons are useless.

The functionality of Wishlists is completely independent of thumbs ratings. Changing that at this point would be a major confusion to people who understand the difference between a wishlist and a suggestion currently. A new auto-record thing would be needed if you want to incorporate thumbs ratings and search criteria at the same time.

[jamdod]

The problem I see with this is you would need to find each individual show and thumb it down.

There is no way to give thumb ratings to a genre directly. I could give thumbs down to all religious services, but give a couple thumbs up to some Billy Graham specials and I'd be affecting the religious genre in both cases. The same holds true for actors. I can thumb up all Clint Eastwood movies except Play Misty For Me and Paint Your Wagon which I thumb down and affect Clint's ratings in both directions.
There is just no way for me to know how I'm affecting the ratings beyond the individual series or show, where I can see the thumbs rating.
This would be a big problem with some genres like reality shows. I may love two of them and hate the other three million, so I would have to go in and give three thumbs down to all those that I hate.

Myself, I just hit the TiVo button before turning on the TV like mdsutherland suggested.

[Guyute1210]

if thumbs(DOWN).numberIs(3) then Wishlist.doNotSchedule()
Is that C# or Java ??? ;)

[ZeoTiVo]

Is that C# or Java ??? ;)


wondered if someone would notice my hybrid mix :cool:


I think tivoapp is written in C++ but I was not going to go find the primer for that language since I do c# or Java nowadays. And actually it is more like the Structured Rule Language inside the Blaze rules engine I have been working with lately.

[anom]

Since when did simply glimpsing a show you don't like when turning on the TV become so offensive? Best to leave well enough alone, I think; I can't imagine this is a serious concern for many people.

[smark]

Well the 5 seconds you see of the program before hitting the Tivo button or changing the channel may scar you for life or ruin the your day.

[dswallow]

Thumbs ratings affect more than jsut a show title; they relate to genre, to some other aspects of the show categorically, to some of the cast members individually, and sometimes to a director as well -- should a 3-thumbs-down mean "never record" each and every one of those items in the future?

The devil is in the details; this isn't a really practical suggestion. It would really need to be very specialized in the way it worked, probably allowing the end-user to make some very unique rules as tests. I'd love a way to never see anything to do with "Marcia Gay Harden" but odds are that sort of rule would have to lose out to another one that might be "see everything with "Brad Pitt", et. al.

[DarkAudit]

Well the 5 seconds you see of the program before hitting the Tivo button or changing the channel may scar you for life or ruin the your day.Just the title 'Fear Factor' makes me nauseous. It gets three thumbs down only because I can't give it four.

[fm37212]

Whether it's a function of Tivo or my cable box I'd love to remove channels from my lineup all together so I never have to scroll through them or see them in my guide. Like the dozens of sports, spanish, religious channels.

Of course I'd like not to have to pay for them at all but that's a different wishlist all together.

[DarkAudit]

Whether it's a function of Tivo or my cable box I'd love to remove channels from my lineup all together so I never have to scroll through them or see them in my guide. Like the dozens of sports, spanish, religious channels.

Of course I'd like not to have to pay for them at all but that's a different wishlist all together.That's in the 'Channels I Receive' part of setup for the DirecTiVo. Can't say how the SA handles it.

I removed Lifetime, WE, Oxygen, etc. from my list, along with the alternate regional sports channel and others I'm not paying for or just don't want. Nothing on these channels will show up in the guide or be recorded.

[mmascari]

That's in the 'Channels I Receive' part of setup for the DirecTiVo. Can't say how the SA handles it.

It's the same.

[geekmedic]

I second the motion! All in favor?
Aye!

[MighTiVo]

What Thumbs Should Mean (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=192845)

What do multiple Thumbs mean? I suspect it is just a weighting game.

This is what I think they should be documented as and the suggestion engine should use accordingly:

3 Thumbs Up - I like everything about this program
2 Thumbs Up - I like the something about this program (Genre/Actor)
1 Thumbs Up - I like this program (Title only)

1 Thumbs Down - I do not like this specific program (Title only)
2 Thumbs Down - I do not like the something about this program (Genre/Actor)
3 Thumbs Down - I do not like anything about this program

Also:
Wishlists and Suggestions shouldn't record a specific program with thumbs down on that specific program.
You should be able to Thumb Actors and Genres (only a up down or neutral, not multiple) aka Teach TiVo , perhaps through the wishlist interface.

TiVo should never idle or use bufferspace on a Thumbs down program. Change channels to what would have been recorded as a sugestion if some other criteria (space available, conflict, etc.) had not prevented the suggestion being recorded.

[rainwater]

What Thumbs Should Mean (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=192845)

What do multiple Thumbs mean? I suspect it is just a weighting game.

This is what I think they should be documented as and the suggestion engine should use accordingly:

3 Thumbs Up - I like everything about this program
2 Thumbs Up - I like the something about this program (Genre/Actor)
1 Thumbs Up - I like this program (Title only)

1 Thumbs Down - I do not like this specific program (Title only)
2 Thumbs Down - I do not like the something about this program (Genre/Actor)
3 Thumbs Down - I do not like anything about this program

Also:
Wishlists and Suggestions shouldn't record a specific program with thumbs down on that specific program.
You should be able to Thumb Actors and Genres (only a up down or neutral, not multiple) aka Teach TiVo , perhaps through the wishlist interface.

TiVo should never idle or use bufferspace on a Thumbs down program. Change channels to what would have been recorded as a sugestion if some other criteria (space available, conflict, etc.) had not prevented the suggestion being recorded.


I totally disagree. Wishlists have nothing to do with thumb ratings. For instance, I may have a program with a thumbs down, but a auto record wishlist may catch my favorite actor in that program and record it. In that case, it better record that wishlist. I think you are confusing suggestions with wishlists. They are not related nor should they be.

[MighTiVo]

I totally disagree. Wishlists have nothing to do with thumb ratings. For instance, I may have a program with a thumbs down, but a auto record wishlist may catch my favorite actor in that program and record it. In that case, it better record that wishlist. I think you are confusing suggestions with wishlists. They are not related nor should they be.


So the question becomes why did you give the program a thumbs down if you wanted to watch it when someone you liked was on it?

Three thumbs down on something says I don't EVER want it on my TiVo, I don't care who, what, when, or why it matched any rule.

[mmascari]

So the question becomes why did you give the program a thumbs down if you wanted to watch it when someone you liked was on it?

Three thumbs down on something says I don't EVER want it on my TiVo, I don't care who, what, when, or why it matched any rule.

Actually, it says: "I don't want this recorded as a suggestion. Something about it does not appeal to me."

That's a far cry from don't EVER record something even if I want it for another reason. For example a wishlist for an actor, or a director.

Say I don't normally like Law & Order, so it get's a thumbs down so it's not recorded as a suggestion 3 times a day. But I have a favorite director, with an auto record wishlist. When he guest directs an episode of Law & Order, I want that recorded. There is no way for the TiVo to determine how my like of the director compares to my dislike of the rated show.


On top of that, Suggestions influenced by thumbs AND Wishlists, Season Passes and other requested recording are totally separate with no interaction between them.

[MighTiVo]

Actually, it says: "I don't want this recorded as a suggestion. Something about it does not appeal to me."

That's a far cry from don't EVER record something even if I want it for another reason. For example a wishlist for an actor, or a director.

Say I don't normally like Law & Order, so it get's a thumbs down so it's not recorded as a suggestion 3 times a day. But I have a favorite director, with an auto record wishlist. When he guest directs an episode of Law & Order, I want that recorded. There is no way for the TiVo to determine how my like of the director compares to my dislike of the rated show.
[/b]

Which is why I suggested "Three thumbs down on something says I don't EVER want it on my TiVo" and be a great way to prune extraneous programs from wishlists that match the search criteria along with other target programs.

One Thumbs down on Law & Order could simply reduce its occurence in suggestions because you "do not like this specific program (Title only)"

[lurk]

The wishlist system needs some way of monitoring what gets recorded and what doesn't. When I wishlist by category the range of programs not only are't useful to me, but I generally get five episodes of one program, often times the same episode.

For example, when I do science and science/nature I get five episodes of Zaboomafoo, which is a children's science show that plays a lot during the day. I never want it to record this show, but there's no way to get that to happen without manually going through and choosing what to record, which defeats the purpose of wishlists.

So I deleted that wishlist and started a similar one that managed to remove Zaboomafoo. Instead I get four or five episodes of a chinese program called Nature and Science. It gets intercut with a program called Space (which is an interior design show and has nothing to do with the keywords). The Nature and Science program is ok, but it reruns and is often recording multiples of the same episode.

How about, instead of using the thumbs up and thumbs downs to affect the wishlists you could instead go through and manage what programs are recorded in a wishlist. Anytime a show comes up that you don't like, you could then go in and remove that show altogether?

[Jonathan_S]

So the question becomes why did you give the program a thumbs down if you wanted to watch it when someone you liked was on it?

Three thumbs down on something says I don't EVER want it on my TiVo, I don't care who, what, when, or why it matched any rule.Probably because otherwise it was recorded constantly. If you only watch late night (as an example) when an actor or person you are really interested in come on, but your TiVo decided you love it and is recording it every time it comes out, it make sense to give it a thumbs down to let the TiVo know you don't normally like that program.

But certainly a single thumbs down shouldn't be enough block a wishlist from matching.

(Now if TiVo simultaneously added a feature that let you mark a show "I love this show, but never suggest it" then by all means, block suggestions on any thumbs down. But until that feature exists, a single thumbs down can all to often just be a means to train the suggestion engine not to suggest a particular show.)

[Guyute1210]

wondered if someone would notice my hybrid mix :cool:


I think tivoapp is written in C++ but I was not going to go find the primer for that language since I do c# or Java nowadays. And actually it is more like the Structured Rule Language inside the Blaze rules engine I have been working with lately.
See i thought the Tivoapp was written in Java, since the HME stuff is all Java, although you can use the java libraries for HME in C#.

[rainwater]

I still think some people are confusing wishlists with suggestions. The two are unrelated as they should be. Adding more advanced options to wishlists especially related to thumbs is not going to happen as it loses its usability factor.

[ZeoTiVo]

See i thought the Tivoapp was written in Java, since the HME stuff is all Java, although you can use the java libraries for HME in C#.


pretty sure TiVoApp was written in C++. I have not bothered to note what web/app server they have running to do the HME stuff. Note though that they just have an API running on the TiVo not the HME java app itself. Java would be the easiest way to do it with hooks into the C++ TiVoApp as needed.

In fact my guess is that they have Java running on the web/app server (most likely a stripped down modified apache/tomcat engine) and for now it just reads the now showing list straight out of the database they call a file system. so the only hooks into the rest of the TiVo that is needed is access to the hardware to get remote button commands and to display video on the screen.

probably why the first round of HME did not have access to DVR specific functions like to do list and scheduling shows and that the next round of HME will have the hooks into TiVoApp to allow for more of that.

of course it could have all been done in C++ on the TiVo with just enough knowledge of Java to allow the APIs of HME to work but that would be a lot of extra work and with the resource issues we see on the TiVo box with 7x I would put my money on Java and its love of resources and garbage collection issues.

[lurk]

I still think some people are confusing wishlists with suggestions. The two are unrelated as they should be. Adding more advanced options to wishlists especially related to thumbs is not going to happen as it loses its usability factor.


I don't think you're getting the point that some are making. Right now, wishlists aren't very usable. I described in detail above why that is.

Another option would be to tie in the thumbs system but make it a scale that the user can set. If the user sets the wishlist to only record unrated and shows above 0 thumbs then it will not record any thumbs down. The system would default to record unrated and anything three thumbs down and above. That would mean that the system would default to what it currently does, and no usability in the way you've described would be lost.

As was stated before, tying in the system of thumbs to the wishlist program at all would be a difficult endeavor, however, if that endeavor was to take place, making the system scalable as I have just described would be a simple matter on top of that.

The system I described a few posts back would not remove any of the functionality that you're describing, and wouldn't require a huge revamping of the systems themselves, but it would fix the problem that some of us have with the wishlist feature as it stands.

[ZeoTiVo]

I don't think you're getting the point that some are making. Right now, wishlists aren't very usable. I described in detail above why that is.

Another option would be to tie in the thumbs system but make it a scale that the user can set. If the user sets the wishlist to only record unrated and shows above 0 thumbs then it will not record any thumbs down. The system would default to record unrated and anything three thumbs down and above. That would mean that the system would default to what it currently does, and no usability in the way you've described would be lost.

As was stated before, tying in the system of thumbs to the wishlist program at all would be a difficult endeavor, however, if that endeavor was to take place, making the system scalable as I have just described would be a simple matter on top of that.

The system I described a few posts back would not remove any of the functionality that you're describing, and wouldn't require a huge revamping of the systems themselves, but it would fix the problem that some of us have with the wishlist feature as it stands.

well I like the first idea better of managing it within wishlist system by telling the wishlist what not to record anymore out of a wishlist. Tying it into thumbs is just two different systems built for different things that seem similar but from a system design standpoint really are not the same at all and all future designs would have to grapple with the complexity of how even one change affects both systems.

Actually I would like even better the ability to make conditional wishlists across different categories

eg action but not Arnold (however his last name is spelled)
or horror but not sci-fi
or horror and sci-fi and Arnold (however his last name is spelled)

etc..
this has been proposed before and I have seen mention of it as a hack. This would also be a good bit of design and programming work but would make wishlists a really powerful feature that other DVRs could not even touch.

[rcapolete]

He said that for 3 thumbs down to change the channel, not just one. If you accidentally push a button three times then you have a twitchy finger issue. :p
you never sat on your remote or had something fall on it and push the button, i know the romte shuts off after 5 sec to avoid killing the battery but it is definetly capable of hit thumbs down three times in mthe time frame. Just seems like a dumb idea. if you do like to show change the damn channel

[cdf12345]

How about an option to set a default channel, so that after say 60 minutes after a show has finished and theres no imput , The channel is auto changed to the default channel selected somewhere in preferences?

[timckelley]

On the subject of turning suggestions on or off, I'm pleasantly surprised by how good a job my TiVo is doing suggesting shows for me. My wife and I used to share a TiVo, and it did a pretty bad job because our thumbing doesn't agree with each other.

But then when I got my own TiVo, and reset thumbs, and started thumbing based on my preferences alone, it quickly learned how to suggest good shows. :up:

Now recently, my wife talked me into letting her put her General Hospital soap opera SP on my TiVo, but I was careful to thumb it down in the process.

[Arcady]

When I grab my TiVo remote, I always press "List" and then I wait about 2 seconds and then press the "TV Power" button. It's a habit now. I rarely see live TV anymore.

[timckelley]

When I grab my TiVo remote, I always press "List" and then I wait about 2 seconds and then press the "TV Power" button. It's a habit now. I rarely see live TV anymore.

I have all that programmed into a macro on my remote. Another side benefit of this, is if it's late at night, you don't have a sudden blast of noise waking up the rest of the house while you fumble for the list button. It's already in NP before the TV gets powered on, so you can turn the volume at your leisure before playing an ep of something.