Transfer rates between Series2 DVRs

[plmurphy]

The transfer of programs is very very very slow. Yesterday I transfered one Law & Order show of 1 hour from one DVR to another--it took 6 hours. Huh? Apparently the obsolete wireless "b" standard used by TIVO is next to useless for transfering video between devices. Does anyone have an answer for improving wireless transfer rates?

I use Linksys "G" router plus "G" cards in PC and Laptop. For the TIVO wireless, I am required to use the old "b" Linksys WUSB-12 adaptors(2) connected to the TIVOs.

[CrispyCritter]

What can I say? You have network problems. It's not the TiVo; lots of people get much higher speeds than you with "b" adapters. Lots of posts about looking at networks. Good luck!

[mgar]

TiVo seems to be limited to about 4 mpbs transfer speeds. This is lower than the max 11 mpbs of "B". My wireless "B" TiVo transfers at the full 4 mbps speed with a signal strength of 50% to 60%.

The problem is not with the wireless "B" standard, or the TiVo itself. Your problem is with your wireless network. Search other threads and use google to find solutions improve wireless network performance.

[David Platt]

I use Linksys "G" router plus "G" cards in PC and Laptop. For the TIVO wireless, I am required to use the old "b" Linksys WUSB-12 adaptors(2) connected to the TIVOs.
If you want G speeds, you could just use plug a USB-to-ethernet adapter into a wireless G bridge instead of using the wireless B adapter.

[plmurphy]

I use a Linksys Wireless G 2.4Ghz Broadband Router with "G" wireless connectivity to a Laptop and "wired" desktop with no problems. Both Tivo Series2 connect perfectly and can view each others "Now Playing List". The issue is one of transfering 'high quality" recorded programs between the units. A one hour high quality program takes at least 3hrs, if not 5-6 hrs. Unacceptable speeds.

There is nothing wrong with my network. :)

[CrispyCritter]

Unacceptable speeds.
There is nothing wrong with my network. :) I agree your speeds are unacceptable. But I don't know anybody with lots of networking experience who would claim "There is nothing wrong with my network" at this point in your investigation. Networks are treacherous beasts :) (I've been running home networks since the 1980's; and have been wrong about the network any number of times.)

What are your TiVoToGo transfer times? The key now is to narrow down the problem to a single TiVo if possible. (If you want to skip all the intermediate steps, the last resort would be moving and directly connecting the two TiVos with a crossover cable. If you are still getting transfers at 3-5 times real-time, then I would believe it's not the network.)

[David Platt]

I use a Linksys Wireless G 2.4Ghz Broadband Router with "G" wireless connectivity to a Laptop and "wired" desktop with no problems. Both Tivo Series2 connect perfectly and can view each others "Now Playing List". The issue is one of transfering 'high quality" recorded programs between the units. A one hour high quality program takes at least 3hrs, if not 5-6 hrs. Unacceptable speeds.
Didn't you say in your earlier post that your TiVos are connected via wireless B adapters? If so, then that is the bottleneck. Wireless B is simply too slow to move video files in anything appraching real time. As I already suggested, you need a normal USB-to-ethernet adapter and a Wireless G bridge (http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?grid=33&scid=36&prid=603) if you're unwilling to run wires between the TiVo units.

[Georgia Guy]

A one hour high quality program takes at least 3hrs, if not 5-6 hrs. Unacceptable speeds.


Of course you don't want to hear this, but a wired high quality transfer for a one hour shows = 19 minutes, at least on my network. Medium 1 hour= 12 minutes.

[bobcarn]

I think you'll find good throughput if you get wireless bridges as opposed to wireless adapters. In upgrading my network at home, I wound up with a couple of Linksys Wireless B access points that weren't going to be used. I hooked them up in bridge mode. One is plugged into my wireless G/switch upstairs, the other into a hub downstairs. My Tivo just has a USB ethernet adapater so it can plug into the hub (along with my PS2 and a computer in the basement). The bridging mode of the access points seems to make a difference. It seems that when communicating in a native wireless mode, the Tivo ran much slower than when it communicated over an ethernet adapter, regardless of the fact that the ethernet adapter was plugged into a wireless bridge. Even though it's a B standard, the only shows that take longer than real-time to transfer are the ones recorded at Best Quality. And even then, a Best Quality show only takes an additional 30% time (a 1 hour show transfers in 1hr, 20min).

I haven't examined wireless networking too closely, but I'm getting the impression that the PC/Tivo itself has more work to do with a wireless USB adapter, and Tivos are more fussy in general about it, than they would be with an ethernet adapater. Ethernet connectivity is pretty straightforward, so I'm seeing (from the posts here) that people are getting better throughput when their Tivo has an ethernet adapter hooked up to a wireless bridge, than when it's just a wireless adapater. I know it doesn't make much sense at first, but it seems to be a trend among the posts here (and with my own personal experiences).

[ComputerTech]

802.11b = 11MB

802.11g = 54MB

Wired = 100MB <---- My personal choice!

You do the math!

I laughed when I first heard series 2 TiVo's were going to work with wireless B and now wireless G. I thought to myself, who in thier right mind would think of transfering video over wireless? Now it is even funnier that people are now complaining that their transfer speeds are slow. Maybe people don't realize how large a 1 hour video file is. Of course wireless is slow. It was never mint for transferring huge video files, only to easily browse the internet from the comfort of your lazy-boy.

If you don't plan to use Multi-Room viewing or TiVo To-Go then wireless is a nice simple way for your TiVo to be on a home network. But if you are the type wanting to transfer video across your network, then take the time to install a wired network, all your problems will go away.

(Hmmm...... Wonder if gigabit network adaptors are supported? Have to look into that..... If anyone knows let me know!)

[MusicMama]

As a networking slightly-more-than-newbie, could you please explain the difference between using a WAP as a bridge vs. just as a WAP? My TiVo is connected to a Belkin wireless USB adapter and it's slow but not as deadly as plmurphy's times - maybe 3 hours for a 2 hour High Qual movie. I can't do wired because the PC and the TiVo are a floor apart, but I do have a spare WAP (newly spare from finally getting a wireless router) - I would try this route but I don't understand "bridging". Can anyone recommend an easy-to-understand tutorial on this?

Many thanks.

[Nicodemus]

Could the bottleneck be the fact that it's going through USB? Or is the Tivo USB port USB 2.0?

[ComputerTech]

Could the bottleneck be the fact that it's going through USB? Or is the Tivo USB port USB 2.0?

After reading this post I wondered if the USB ports on the TiVo series 2 were version 1.1 or 2.0.

According to the system specs. of the series 2 TiVo the 2 USB ports are "Type A" which is version 1.1

If this is accurate it would explane why people are having so much trouble. USB 1.1 is only capaible of transfering at speeds of 12MB/s whereas USB 2.0 is able to transfer at speeds of 480MB/s

Basicly it wouldn't matter wheather you used wireless type B or G, or even wired. If the USB ports are version 1.1 the maximume transfer speed is 12MB/s.

TiVo reccomends using the Linksys USB200M adaptor for wired networks but if their USB ports are only version 1.1 it wouldn't make any difference, the maximum transfer speeds could only reach 12MB/s which is much slower that the full speed of wired network which transfers at 100MB/s

After finding this information I called TiVo tech support to inquire about the USB port version and they conformed that the USB ports are version 1.1, BUT they guy also said he believed that TiVo Series 2 systems running their software version 7.1 would change the USB ports from 1.1 to 2.0 and inturn increase the transfer speeds from 12Mb/s to 480MB/s

I had orginally thought USB versions were a hardwired and could not be changed with new software, so I will continue to research.

If anybody else has some imput please let me know.

[ComputerTech]

I have done some more research and talked to another person at TiVo tech support.

As far as I can tell the USB ports are verson 2.0 if you are running version 7.1.

The tech person I talked to this time was 100% sure the USB ports were version 2.0 and capible of transfuring at 480MB/s

This is good news for people who are using wired networks. People who arn't I would shrongly reccomend takeing the time and effort to wire your TiVo.

[Nicodemus]

After finding this information I called TiVo tech support to inquire about the USB port version and they conformed that the USB ports are version 1.1, BUT they guy also said he believed that TiVo Series 2 systems running their software version 7.1 would change the USB ports from 1.1 to 2.0 and inturn increase the transfer speeds from 12Mb/s to 480MB/s.
Hmm.. this doesn't sound right to me. I believe the actual architecture of USB 2.0 itself is different from 1.1 and 1.1 cannot be upgraded to USB 2.0 through a software update.

[ComputerTech]

Hmm.. this doesn't sound right to me. I believe the actual architecture of USB 2.0 itself is different from 1.1 and 1.1 cannot be upgraded to USB 2.0 through a software update.

That's what I thought. I believe the first guy I talked to didn't know what he was talking about.

[Nicodemus]

That's what I thought. I believe the first guy I talked to didn't know what he was talking about.
Yeah, doesn't sound like it.. but hasn't USB 2.0 been around since 2001? It wouldn't make sense for newer Tivos to have USB 1.1 ports.

Unless maybe the Tivo 4.x software only supported USB1.1 since maybe it was around before USB 2.0 and it was used only for programming updates, and the 7.x updates the driver since there is now a legitimate use for the increased speed?

I dunno.. I just got my Tivo and I don't know that much about it yet, especially version history.

[CrispyCritter]

The relatively few early TiVo Series2 models beginning with 1 (eg (140)) have USB 1.1 hardware and nothing can change that to USB 2.0. The vast majority of TiVo Series2 models, whose numbers begin with 2 or 5 (240, 540, ...), have USB 2.0 hardware which is finally taken advantage of in 7.1 for the first time.

[Nicodemus]

The relatively few early TiVo Series2 models beginning with 1 (eg (140)) have USB 1.1 hardware and nothing can change that to USB 2.0. The vast majority of TiVo Series2 models, whose numbers begin with 2 or 5 (240, 540, ...), have USB 2.0 hardware which is finally taken advantage of in 7.1 for the first time.
Ahh.. I see.. thanks for the help, Crispy.

So would you happed to have any idea why the hell did it take damn near an hour for my Tivo to transfer a 30min show at High Quality with my USB 200M?

I just got the 7 update, should I disconnect and reconnect my USB adapter? Wait that doesn't make much sense..

[fboner]

Ahh.. I see.. thanks for the help, Crispy.

So would you happed to have any idea why the hell did it take damn near an hour for my Tivo to transfer a 30min show at High Quality with my USB 200M?

I just got the 7 update, should I disconnect and reconnect my USB adapter? Wait that doesn't make much sense..

What does the rest of your LAN look like? Do you have 100BT connectivity throughout? What chipset was on the receiving end. A lot of things can impact the performance, even though USB2 is theoretically 480Mbps, 10/100 is typically max 80Mbps, the Tivo itself dies around 40-50Mbps..and so on

Fred

[Sleet]

Hey all. I just got a TiVo for my wife for her birthay and have been lurking on the message boards here. She has not opened her gift yet even though I keep prodding her to do so.

I just wanted to clear one thing up regarding the 100Mbps wired throughput. It looks to me that bits and bytes may have gotten mixed up. The 100Mbps theoretical max transfer rate of the wired Ethernet is 100 megabits, not 100 megabytes per second. The translates to 12.5 megabytes per second. So even with the transfer rate of 12MB/s of USB 1.1 and the fact that 100Mbps Ethernet rarely, if ever, actually transfers at 100Mbps I doubt that USB 1.1 would be a bottleneck.

Of course it is nice to know that USB 2.0 is implemented for whatever features they may add in the future. Perhaps we will see gigabit Ethernet support soon.

Sleet

[AnteL0pe]

802.11b = 11MB

802.11g = 54MB

Wired = 100MB <---- My personal choice!

You do the math!

I laughed when I first heard series 2 TiVo's were going to work with wireless B and now wireless G.
Not everyone wants to, or even can, run cable all over their house/apartment. I live in an apartment with 85% solid concrete walls, and running cable all over the baseboards doesnt sound fun to me. Not to mention that my wife wouldnt let me :p Beyond that, Im able to get about 700K/sec on transfers between my TiVo and the computers in my place, and they all sit on an 802.11g network. Granted, when I plug a machine into the same switch the TiVo is on I can get close to 1MB/sec, but the transfer times are acceptable to me either way.

[minorthr]

I have a netgear usb 2.0 wired adapter on my Humax t800 my Tivo 2 go transfer rate tops out around 450kbs. Which I think is way to slow. For USB 1 wired I guess that would be about right but not USB 2. I remember reading from TivoBill that even though 2.0 was enabled you weren't going to notice a difference at this time. I can not find the post again though.

[vinniet]

Hello all ... I have read thru this post and I have a question that I have not seen answered. I am upgrading form a Tivo Series 1 to TWO Tivo Series 2. I would like to multi-room viewing BUT do not want to transfer the program, just stream it. This would leave the program on box a and watch it on box b. Now Tivo support says I can either transfer it or watch it.

If this is true, if I stream it, how does that work out with 8011.b network? Is there a lag time before you can start to watch a program as it buffers?

Thanks!

[vjp]

The relatively few early TiVo Series2 models beginning with 1 (eg (140)) have USB 1.1 hardware and nothing can change that to USB 2.0. The vast majority of TiVo Series2 models, whose numbers begin with 2 or 5 (240, 540, ...), have USB 2.0 hardware which is finally taken advantage of in 7.1 for the first time.

Wow, all this time I've been wondering why I've gotten such crappy d/l speeds from my 240-series TiVo, and after reading your post I went and checked my USB adapter - it's a Linksys USB100TX, capable of 100mbps on the ethernet side BUT ONLY USB 1.1 COMPATIBLE ON THE USB SIDE!!!! AAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!

So even though my network is fully 100mbps, the stupid adapter is bottlenecking xfers to 4mbps!

Oh well, live and learn.

[twalker294]

I use a Linksys Wireless G 2.4Ghz Broadband Router with "G" wireless connectivity to a Laptop and "wired" desktop with no problems. Both Tivo Series2 connect perfectly and can view each others "Now Playing List". The issue is one of transfering 'high quality" recorded programs between the units. A one hour high quality program takes at least 3hrs, if not 5-6 hrs. Unacceptable speeds.

There is nothing wrong with my network. :)

I have a Series 2 80 hour and a Humax Tivo with DVD burner on my home wireless network. I have a Linksys WRT54G wireless router and USB wireless-B adapters on both Tivos. I record everything at medium quality and a 1-hour show takes about an hour to transfer from one Tivo to the other. That proves that the hardware can do it. Don't be so sure there is nothing wrong with your network.

Todd

[vinniet]

twalker294 ... Can I ask you a question ( I asked it above). Is there two way to transfer a shows between two Tivo units, one is to copy it and the other is to stream it??

That is what Tivo said but I can not find proof of it.

Thanks!

[twalker294]

twalker294 ... Can I ask you a question ( I asked it above). Is there two way to transfer a shows between two Tivo units, one is to copy it and the other is to stream it??

That is what Tivo said but I can not find proof of it.

Thanks!

No, there's only one way and that is to copy it. However you can watch it as it's copying from one to the other. Usually I start the transfer then about 20 minutes later I start watching it. That gives me enough padding that I can skip commercials and I am finished watching it just shortly after it finishes transferring. I've never had any complaints about the speed of transfer between my two Tivos. If you can't wait 20 minutes to start watching a show then you are a little too high strung ;-)

Todd

[ZeoTiVo]

I use a wired network so have not directly experienced/worked with wireless but just a couple of things here.

First - as said above - all 240 and 540 TiVos have USB 2.0 hardware. Even if you have versio 4x of TiVo and USB 1.1 drivers - you can plug in a USB 2 specced adapter. WIth version 7x TiVo now uses USB 2 drivers adn wired people get a big boost in performance.

second when doing Multi Room Viewing between two TiVos , it is indeed a copy and the show will stay on the original TiVo in whatever Keep Until state it was in.
What I think the CSR was trying to say. Whne you pick a show from another TiVo. You will get the please wait bitmap show up, the two TiVos will do their initial things to talk to each other and setup the copy, then the copy will start adn you will see a screen that says Watch on this TV now or Keep on browsing the other TiVo. So to "stream" you say watch on this TiVo now and just like anything being recorded on a TiVo you can watch it while the rest of the show is copied. If you catch up top the end of the recording/copying then you get the nessage saying to please wait.
If you say continue to borwse the other TiVo then the "copy" takes place in the background. You cna pick more shows and they will queue up behind the first one. Only one show at a time is copied.
In the TiVo you are at you will see the show being recorded and the red ball for a recording taking place. If the TiVo is actually recording a show from the tuner then you will see two red balls for the recording and the copying taking place.
of course the more a TiVo is doing the longer the copy can take since it has a lower priority than recording from tuner or displaying a show.

---------------
as for the network speeds. Mnay people with older access points/routers report significantly better transfer times by going out and getting a fairly new access point/router that seem much better designed to handle B and G traffic adn even the TiVo type of traffic in general. I have seen reports of this with even wired routers. IT may well be worth the time and effort to get one, if it makes no difference then return it.

also of course moving the antennas around can sometimes find a much better sweet spot that lowers interference and things go a lot quicker then as well. In fact I suspect the newer hardware working better may be linked to better handling of interference from things like cordless phones etc..
remember , you may see even 90% signal strength but that will not give any indication of interference happening. With a TiVo interference really slows it down as it MUST resend the packets garbled up and MUST resend them right away as even though it is a copy process , it needs to treat it more like a stream as you nay be watching it. Interference will slow MRV and TTG way down.

[vinniet]

I wish people would of also posted what wireless/wired network adapter they were using. I see alots of posts about people having problems with certain network adapters.

My question is, what 8011.g 54 has the least problems.

Thanks!

[rem]

So even with the transfer rate of 12MB/s of USB 1.1 and the fact that 100Mbps Ethernet rarely, if ever, actually transfers at 100Mbps I doubt that USB 1.1 would be a bottleneck.

Sleet

just to clarify somethings up.

usb1.1 speed is actually 12 megabits/sec, NOT 12 megaBYTES/sec. this translates to 1.5 megabytes/sec.

usb2.0 is capable of 480 megabits = 60 megabytes/sec.

[rem]

one more thing i would like to add to this topic.

i don't understand why tivo doesn't just put in an ethernet port to begin with. then we wouldn't have to deal with the issue of compatible adapters.

there's also the disclosure somewhere that even though there are two usb ports, only one can be used. what's that about? why even put in a second one, then?

[HDTiVo]

one more thing i would like to add to this topic.

i don't understand why tivo doesn't just put in an ethernet port to begin with. then we wouldn't have to deal with the issue of compatible adapters.

there's also the disclosure somewhere that even though there are two usb ports, only one can be used. what's that about? why even put in a second one, then?

Probably the earliest indication that things were going to go haywire over at TiVo. Lack of ethernet and usb 1.1 (not 2.0) with no explanation for second port.

[Justin Thyme]

Probably the earliest indication that things were going to go haywire over at TiVo. Lack of ethernet and usb 1.1 (not 2.0) with no explanation for second port.

Not sure why that is evidence of "going haywire". Why didn't the ][e come out with an integrated floppy? Should the first mac have ever been produced with just 128K? Virtually overnight there was a cottage industry created of people who would sell you a widget to upgrade your memory.

Was that evidence of Apple going haywire?

Deciding to be agressive in keeping chip costs down means you have Tivo's available for $70.

I think it is a fair criticism to wonder at lack of support for expansion memory. It is also baffling to me what the hardware decisions were that may have led to the abysmal network throughput. Did they test it and not detect the problem? Wasn't the problem theoreticaly anticipatable anyway? How can the performance possibly be this bad? I suspect there may be a good reason that it was unavoidable, but that one is astonishing to me.

But as far as not integrating ethernet support on the board- that kind of tradeoff is made among CE designers every day.

[HDTiVo]

It is only the first sign in retrospect. At the time it was a bit of oddness that aroused suspicion.

[CrispyCritter]

It is only the first sign in retrospect. At the time it was a bit of oddness that aroused suspicion.Suspicion? I don't recall that at all. I remember people getting excited about connecting their camera and other things (speculation about keyboards and joysticks) to the TiVo. Yes, there have always been people who've wanted to network their TiVo's, but that wasn't the direction TiVo was headed in way back then (4+ years ago; the Series2 is old!!!).

I agree in retrospect an ethernet port would have worked out better for them. But USB was considered a reasonable way for TiVo to go at the time.

[HDTiVo]

Suspicion? I don't recall that at all. I remember people getting excited about connecting their camera and other things (speculation about keyboards and joysticks) to the TiVo.
Those people were so busy being wrong, they didn't have time to notice.

[rem]

knowing what they do now, why can't they just add an ethernet port to new tivos rolling off the assembly line at the moment? it'll still be series 2. just a series 2 with a "revision 1" at the end.

[HDTiVo]

knowing what they do now, why can't they just add an ethernet port to new tivos rolling off the assembly line at the moment? it'll still be series 2. just a series 2 with a "revision 1" at the end.

The TiVo seems constrained in the rate at which it is capable of transmiting data via the USB port, which may be due to other components (CPU, Hard Drive.) If so, there might not be any difference if ethernet were directly used.

[CrispyCritter]

knowing what they do now, why can't they just add an ethernet port to new tivos rolling off the assembly line at the moment? it'll still be series 2. just a series 2 with a "revision 1" at the end.It would be a very major change, both at the hardware and the software level. The motherboard would have to be redesigned (it's a custom motherboard). At the software level, remember that TiVo is running normal Linux, but has very important real-time constraints on it. It absolutely has to be able to handle the incoming signal it's recording, and the signal it's outputting to the TV. Nothing else it does can be allowed to interfere with those two functions. So putting in a new ethernet port means revisiting the timings of all of their present algorithms to make sure that the new ethernet CPU/disk load won't interfere with the core functions while all the other activities are also running. Very difficult, and probably for not that much gain in speed. As HDTiVo says, the CPU is already the bottleneck for many activities.

[larrywade]

I think your problem is the version of tivo software you're running. 7.1 is the first version that supports USB2.0. If you upgrade the software you should see higher transfer rates (I think)

[rgura]

The way I see it there are 2 ways of determining actual network transfer speeds.

1.) When you start the transfer, not the specific date and time on your PC
2.) monitor the transfer until it is complete
3.) once the transfer is complete, look and the "date modified" of the resulting tivo file
4.) subtract #1 from #3.

To convert to KB/sec
1.) convert the resulting time from #4 above to seconds.
2.) Getr the file size of your tivo file in KB (bear in mind that Windows explorer generally displayes file sizes in KB, unless you are looking at the file properties, in which case they use MB, GB or bytes. Just keep in mind that ther are 1024 MB in 1 GB and 1024 KB in 1 MB and 8 bytes in 1 bit.
3.) Do some math

Post your results:
Generally I see around 250-300 KB/sec over Wireless G.

This just happens to be approximately I get if I were to download a file directly from TiVo's built in web server.

This seems dog-slow, even for wireless.

That said, go pick a large file at random to download from the internet. Even with a hot DSL connection, I tend to see download rates in the 250-300 KB/sec over Wireless G.

I think that the problem is that TiVo's IP connection is limited to 1 stream, therefore you can't do the typical WebServer/Browser tricks like opening multiple connection streams.

Any comments?

[Neilwltr]

Hello,

I have TWO Tivo Series 2 units, both are hardwired into the Linksys Router "G"

Would my speeds increase for transfer between Tivos if I swapped the Linksys to an "N" router - keeping in mind both will continue to be plugged into the router with cat 5

Thanks.

[ggieseke]

Nothing would change at all.

[IEBA]

I went and checked my USB adapter - it's a Linksys USB100TX, capable of 100mbps on the ethernet side BUT ONLY USB 1.1 COMPATIBLE ON THE USB SIDE!!!! AAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!

So even though my network is fully 100mbps, the stupid adapter is bottlenecking xfers to 4mbps!

USB 1.1 = 12 Mbps ÷ 8 (bits to a Byte) = 1.5 MBps
(many of the posters in this thread pay no attention to upper or lowercase when it is a huge difference. M=mega m=milli, b=bits B=bytes)
http://members.optus.net/alexey/prefSI.xhtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte

that said, I agree. AAAAAAAAAARGH!!!! I just bought the same damm adapter because it is on TiVo's approved list, not knowing that it was USB 1.1.

Now I'm on the hunt for a USB200 or USB300. Neither of which say "HighSpeed" but only say USB 2.0. But my fingers are crossed that both are high speed - 480 Mbps.
I think the jump from 12Mbps to 480Mbps would be quite tangible, right?