802.11g Adapters Added to Compatible Adapters List [Text View] - Page 2

ffrllc

05-02-2005, 07:04 PM

Hey all,

I have an older series 2 (serial number starting with 110) that I'd like to activate the TivoToGo feature. I have three other Tivo units in the house, but this is the only series 2. Until I get another series 2 to replace some of the other Tivos I'll connect this series 2 to a wireless network so I can transfer to my PC.

What would be the best and fastest adapter that will allow me to connect to my PC and transfer files with decent speed?

On a side note, how do you find out what the exact version of the adapters are before purchasing.? I'd like to get one off eBay as it will be cheaper, but how can the seller check the full version number to make sure it's the exact version I'll need?

Thanks in advance !!! :up:

perrykperry

05-07-2005, 03:04 AM

And another quick question.... Which Series2 Tivos actually have USB 2.0 hardware? (I've got a 230040) I've been searching for a bit now and can't figure out whether I'd benefit from replacing my Linksys 1.1 wired adapter with the 2.0 version....
TIA-
Kevin Perry

maxxl

05-08-2005, 08:45 AM

Hello there. Lets see I have 2 540 models Its seem they are slow as "****". If you know what I mean. Run a surch for the first three numbers in the forums. I heard the 230 had newer faster procesor and guts. But im not an expert as you can tell from my terminology. I am using 54g netgear wg111 v2. made in china with the blue lights. I transefered a 59 min show and it took 2hrs 45 min. Yeah that sucks the big one. Plus know i get an error in my media player saying
"Pins cannot connect due to not supporting the same transport." WTF is that anyhow? Does anyone know..... I am running windows 2000 with tivo desktop v2.1 . windows help gave me this number "80040266" Its supposed to help me figure out the problem. One guy says to reinstall the program. anyon deal with this at all? help please
MAX

A2Tivo

05-10-2005, 02:03 PM

quarque

05-11-2005, 09:17 PM

I am not sure if I understand your question. Are you trying to connect 2 Tivo units via 11b adaptors without a router? An adaptor can only connect to another adaptor via the wireless router. You cannot set up a "peer-to-peer" by only using 2 usb wireless adaptors.

Hope this helps.

Rudi
Not True!!! I have two Tivos linked via wireless adapters and NO router or AP. The trick is (I found out painfully) is the adapters MUST be 'b' capable only. Anything with 'g' capability does not work yet in peer-to-peer mode. I'm using the D-Link DWL-122 which is still sold at the Tivo Store if you can't find it on ebay or elsewhere.

quarque

05-11-2005, 09:21 PM

It is my understanding to do a peer to peer all I need to do is buy 2 Linksys wusb12 (or one of the others on their list) and plug them into the usb on the back of my TiVo's. Then the plug n'play will give me the prompts to make a network between the 2 TiVo's.

I have 2 TiVo series 2, a 240 80 hrs. & 540 140 hrs in 2 separate rooms.
Sort of. The adapters must be ON the list AND 'b' mode only. Anything with 'g' capability will not (yet) work in peer-to-peer. I'm running 2 D-Link DWL-122's in peer-to-peer with no problem. You have to go through an extra step to let the Tivo update the adapter firmware (via prompts on Tivo - very nice). After that you set up the wireless parameters and the TCP/IP parameters and you're done. I believe the WUSB12 is on the list and is 'b' mode only so it should work.

I also put TTG 2.0 on my PC and added another adapter to its USB ports with the same preamble for the IP address and the last digit unique from the others. It found the Tivo peer-to-peer network and connected within seconds. This adapter IS 'g' capable (WG111) but it knows the Tivo network was running in 'b' mode so it linked in that mode. It transfers shows in MED quality at about realtime speed or slightly faster (28 min for 30 min show). I can now also do a slide show on my HD set of jpeg digital photos from past vacations - not as good as a DVD I made playing in progressive mode on my DVD player, but close.

bpstivo

05-15-2005, 09:37 AM

Please say it ain't so! It appears I got sucked into the g hype. When buying my 2nd Series 2 direct from Tivo they offered the WG111 adapter. Having purchased one way back for my first S2, accidentally, to replace the MA111v2 that wouldn't work, yada yada yada. But I digress.

My setup:
540080
550040
Netgear WGR614v4
2 WG111v2
1 DWL-122
WinXPPro, Athlon 2500+, 512, 100 wired

My Issue:
While waiting for the 7.1b upgrade I tested the T2G performance with the DWL-122 (73% Signal) would take ~45 minutes for a 30 minute High recording (811MB). Got the 7.1b, plugged in the WG111 (I found you need to delete/re-enter the last character of both your SSID and WEP key or you get "gateway not found error", anybody else get this??), did the T2G transfer and... HUGE DISAPPOINTMENT! With a signal strength of 84% it said it would take ~1.5 hrs for the same recording...huh?!?! And a whopping 3 hrs 40 minutes for an hour show.

Did some research here, found the filbay had similar results, saw no "solution" so I called Tivo support, figuring I did something stupid. Well after 10 minutes on hold after describing my problem, the young lady returned and said I just spoke to level 2 and I quote "As with the initial b support, which was slow, g support is slow" end quote! I translated as.. you are SOL!

But here's my rub, with TiVo fighting off competitors for all angles, why release something that is WORSE than what is there. I could accept (begrudingly) similar performance to my b, but I upgraded to all g equipment (and the only reason is for speed) to get, slower performance!!! Please tell me how to ATLEAST get the same performance. MRV is unusable if you have to schedule the download 3 hours before you plan to watch!

TivoBill, Mr. Ramsey, others, as a TiVo evangelist, you are making it very hard for me to keep Microsoft out of my entertainment center. I "sold" many a neighbor on the merits of TiVo (unfortunately, many before rewards...) don't make me a liar.

What can I do so my WG111s run as fast as my DWL-122?

Bryan

maxxl

05-16-2005, 05:13 AM

I think it mostly has to do with the technolgy on the 540 box?? I beleive that is what i heard. The technology is faster on the newer series 2 boxes but lately all Ive seen in the stores is the 540 series tivo series 2 boxes. Anyone agree with me?? ive seen different postes about the newer series 2 boxes transfering the files at 3 times as fast than the 540 boxes. because of the technology used inside. I tell you one thing if I had known that I would have gone out of my way to find a newer tivo box rather put up with this crap....
MAX

tweekerz

05-17-2005, 01:48 AM

I have a At & Tivo Series 2 TSN: 130xxxxx, with DWL-G121 B1 working fine... havent tested the transfers yet

It does update and it also sees other Tivos

My understanding is that the version number is labeled on the box. During the beta, we tested the WG111 version 2 and DWL-G120 version B2 most extensively, which is why we have decided to only recommend those two adapters at this time. Again, sorry for the inconvenience.

rog

05-17-2005, 02:35 AM

But here's my rub, with TiVo fighting off competitors for all angles, why release something that is WORSE than what is there. I could accept (begrudingly) similar performance to my b, but I upgraded to all g equipment (and the only reason is for speed) to get, slower performance!!!

Why release the 802.11g support? Despite the poor speed of TiVoToGo transfers when using 11g adapaters, I can give you at least 3 reasons why TiVo started offering (limited) support for 11g:

1) We begged for 11g support! The begging was very evident on this forum.

2) 11b adapters from the very small list of supported 11b devices were getting harder and harder to find in the stores.

3) Some people want to keep an "11g-only" network going (no "mixed mode").

Having given these reasons, I must say I think it SUCKS too, and I hope TiVo is working on optimizing the 11g drivers.

I've posted reasons for why the 11g support is poor already. It has to do with the Linux wireless drivers (or lack thereof).

What can I do so my WG111s run as fast as my DWL-122?

Nothing. Unless you count "waiting for proper 11g support".

peepoop

05-17-2005, 05:55 PM

- D-Link DWL-G120 version B2
- Netgear WG111

These adapters can be purchased at many local or online retailers. The DWL-G120 is also available at the TiVo Store.

You have that backwards. If the Tivo store actually had B2s, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

maxxl

05-18-2005, 05:21 AM

You have that backwards. If the Tivo store actually had B2s, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
I have to agree with you I havent seen the B2's in the stores at all. but I will never pay full price for an adapter. just picked up a netgear wg111 for $30 (after rebate) at office max a couple of weeks ago and they have the same sale this week too. I dont think the tivo store would be offering any kind of rebate anytime soon? I will never pay full price.
Peace out,
Max :D

bpstivo

05-18-2005, 09:54 AM

I've posted reasons for why the 11g support is poor already. It has to do with the Linux wireless drivers (or lack thereof).

I guess my thoughts are, if TiVo is building ontop of Linux, being that its open source, if a feature/function isn't built in, then TiVo should build it in. Hire an expert (or pay NetGear, LinkSys, etc.) to build the better driver. Then in the spirit of open source, release it back.

Either way, I just want 802.11b performance as "advertised" I'll quietly wait for better, but I don't like taking the huge step back.

Anybody out there getting b performance with the WG111 adapter? Whats the trick? Additionally, I've noticed that my TiVo clock is losing time everyday, the call resets it, but if I check it around midnight before the call its off between 5 and 20 minutes EVERYDAY! I am having JavaHMO pull a bunch of recordings off nightly, can I overtax the unit?

Thoughts?

rog

05-18-2005, 01:18 PM

maxxl

05-18-2005, 09:43 PM

I guess my thoughts are, if TiVo is building ontop of Linux, being that its open source, if a feature/function isn't built in, then TiVo should build it in. Hire an expert (or pay NetGear, LinkSys, etc.) to build the better driver. Then in the spirit of open source, release it back.

Either way, I just want 802.11b performance as "advertised" I'll quietly wait for better, but I don't like taking the huge step back.

Anybody out there getting b performance with the WG111 adapter? Whats the trick? Additionally, I've noticed that my TiVo clock is losing time everyday, the call resets it, but if I check it around midnight before the call its off between 5 and 20 minutes EVERYDAY! I am having JavaHMO pull a bunch of recordings off nightly, can I overtax the unit?

Thoughts?
when u say call do you mean you are still using the phone to update tivo? I was transfering a file once and the clock was wrong until the transfer was done. I update the tivo over the network not through the phone line. I dont know if all that helped but good luck with that.
MAX

hgordin

05-19-2005, 02:00 PM

Let me ask a dumb question - since its easier than reading 14 pages on here:

If I have a B router and B USB adapter, and everything is working OK (except losing Galleon now and then), is there any reason at all to change to a G network?

Thanks

MikeyB

05-19-2005, 02:25 PM

HMO & TTG transfer speed.

CrispyCritter

05-19-2005, 10:04 PM

HMO & TTG transfer speed.If those were in response to the previous post, I would disagree. Some people find speed goes up for HMO and TTG, but others find speed goes down (I'm talking about the direct connection of wireless-g to TiVo, not the wireless bridge "ultimate solution" thread which is different.) TiVo themselves recommends not changing if you have a working wireless-b network.

quarque

05-19-2005, 10:10 PM

I agree with Crispy - it is more likely to be a waste of money than anything else unless you go the full boat ultimate solution.

hegewald123

06-02-2005, 01:11 AM

I have a linksys wusb54g working in g broadcast mode working with a linksys wap54g router and no problems.

Edrock

06-26-2005, 05:05 PM

I went through three different models before getting the right one. Netgear has awsome products, second only to cisco in mho, and I am a network admin. BUT the list says that the wg111 is compatible and that is not completely true. The wg111 models are:

wg111t
wg111na
wg111... umm something rad or super fast, i forget.

the ONLY one that will work is the wg111na, i know, I returned the other two this morning, lol. And yes I have the 7.1 update on my series 2 brand spanking new tivo. picked it up thursday... but at this time, the networking is working fine, although I havent moved anything to the pc yet to be burned, I hear it is quite slow, which to me, is not that big of a deal as long as it works. but I hope tivo makes the note on their list about the netgear wg111na being the correct model.

dave

Dave,

I sent you an email-but I just found this post and you answered my question. I am returning the wg111t and I ordered the wg111na.

Thanks a bunch!

Ed

Pizzagod

12-02-2005, 08:42 PM

I have a series 2 model TCD24004A and a series 2 model TCD230040. Just curious... are the 230 models equipped with USB 2.0 also?

all sereis 2 240 and 540 models and the DVD models have USB 2.0 hardware in them. TiVo had been using USB 1.1 spec drivers in 4x and 5x OS and has now released USB 2.0 drivers in 7x OS. As you noted USB 2.0 adapters could be plugged into the TiVo and work (and indeed worked a little better than a USB 1.1 adapter in 4x) . Now with the final piece of the puzzle going to USB 2.0 (the driver) MRV over wire is very fast. aprrently the wireless adapter drivers have other things going on that are casuing TiVo problems on getting to full speed on them.

megazone

12-02-2005, 08:59 PM

I have a series 2 model TCD24004A and a series 2 model TCD230040. Just curious... are the 230 models equipped with USB 2.0 also?
Yes. The Series2 units that start with a '1' (110/130/140) are USB1.1, all other Series2 units are USB2.0.

rb_la

12-03-2005, 08:29 AM

I have a Sony SVR-3000 (service # 110) that I would like to hook up to my home wireless b network using a Linksys befw11s4 v3 router. Any suggestions on how to find a compatible wireless usb adapter?

megazone

12-03-2005, 06:03 PM

http://www.tivo.com/adapters

DaddyBC

12-04-2005, 04:04 AM

I have a linksys wusb54g working in g broadcast mode working with a linksys wap54g router and no problems.

I have a wusb54g I tried to connect to Tivo and is not recognized. What did you do to get it working?

haretrigger

12-04-2005, 11:52 PM

I have a wusb54g I tried to connect to Tivo and is not recognized. What did you do to get it working?
I have a WUSB54G that TiVo will not recognize. Mine is v2, it might be the version of the adapter that is the difference. Does anyone have any input on this?

hockeybrad

12-12-2005, 10:31 PM

My WUSB54G arrived today, doesn't have a version number, and does not work with Tivo. Tivo recognizes it, which is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't have adapters and refuses to use it.

How can they continue to deny what is arguably the most popular USB adapter (linksys G)?

megazone

12-13-2005, 05:46 PM

How can they continue to deny what is arguably the most popular USB adapter (linksys G)?They're not denying anything. To support it there needs to be drivers for Linux that are proven and stable, then they need to port it to the TiVo platform and test it before it gets released. Vendors keep changing their chipsets and tend to only release drivers for Windows and Mac, so there is often a long delay before the Linux world can use them. And then a further delay before TiVo can. Chasing this moving target is why TiVo has been working on their own TiVo-branded 11g adapter.

DocNo

12-14-2005, 12:52 AM

I am not aware of any plans to add support for WPA encryption at this time.

Any update on this? The only thing keeping me from hooking Tivo up to my wireless network directly :(

Oh well, I know you probably can't comment but here's to hoping the Tivo branded adaptor will finally help make this possible :p

neilio

12-19-2005, 03:09 PM

Any update on this? The only thing keeping me from hooking Tivo up to my wireless network directly :(

I really, really, hope this is added in a future upgrade. I'm running WEP right now but I really want to switch back to WPA as soon as possible.

sroney

12-19-2005, 04:27 PM

so will this apapter work or not "D-Link Wireless G 54 USB Adapter DWL-G122 Wi Fi H/W B1"

megazone

12-21-2005, 03:57 PM

so will this apapter work or not "D-Link Wireless G 54 USB Adapter DWL-G122 Wi Fi H/W B1"

Not: http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2184.htm?

TiVoJerry

12-27-2005, 08:33 PM

The good news is that today we put up the TiVo Wireless G Adapter. This adapter is fully supported by ALL Series2 standalone platforms, even the units with a prefix of 110, 130, or 140. The thread discussing all of this is here (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=278655)

Unfortunately, WPA is still not supported as that change needs to go into our SW as well. I don't yet have an ETA as to when that will be happening.

tobe

01-22-2006, 04:10 PM

I've had Tivo since the early days and finally moved up to a Series 2 after getting one for Christmas this year.

I was extremely disappointed to learn that Tivo doesn't support WPA encryption as all our other devices using wireless do support WPA. As a result, I had to dumb down the security on my network to WEP solely for Tivo and, worse, our laptops are now constantly dropping their Internet connections when before switching to WEP everything was nearly flawless.

After doing some research it seems there are ways around this (buying USB/ethernet adapter for Tivo and then hardwiring the Tivo to a bridge to negotiate WPA traffic), but I feel it's asking a lot to spend another $100 or so just to address the fact Tivo won't support WPA natively.

I would greatly appreciate it if one of the Tivo engineers could respond to this and let me know if there are any plans to add WPA support. If so, how soon can we expect to see this?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Tobe

megazone

01-22-2006, 04:15 PM

TiVo won't discuss unannounced features - and WPA is such a feature.

Impulses

01-24-2006, 10:21 PM

Two of the computers at home were having difficulty with their wireless connection after I switched the network down to WEP in order to get TiVo working on it...

I'm using a Linksys WRT54GS router, and various Linksys 54G adapters... WMP54G PCI one on one PC, with SpeedBooster, non-SB USB one on another (WUSB54G v4), old-non-SB one on the TiVo that miraculously worked despite never having read that it would be compatible (v1), etc.

In any case, I managed to solve all connectivity issues fairly easily. On one PC (PCI adapter) all it took was disabling a 802.11x authentication option that I wasn't using anyway (called EAP, works w/Smartcards and stuff, business make use of it)...

Having it enabled made Window's WCZ util go out and try to authenticate periodically which dropped the connection with WEP (even though it didn't with WPA).

On another PC (newer USB adapter) I had to go ahead and install Linksys' own connection monitor and use that instead of Window's. Said program didn't originally work with Windows XP when I installed the first adapters over a year ago but their newest version does and is actually a recommended install on the manual.

Installing it fixed all of that computer's connectivity issues, truth be told it improved the connection and does provide more information than Window's own ap (it has a tendency to flip out and say the connection is down when it isn't but oh well, heh).

In any case, play with it, just as long as you know what you're doing, and you can probably resolve all your issues without tossing more money at the problem.

Impulses

01-24-2006, 10:49 PM

Reason I registered to post here today wasn't actually to dispense advice, I wanted to ask if anyone has had better results with TiVo's own adapter than other adapters... I understand that the USB1 programming is the biggest bottleneck and whatnot but I've heard that regardless of that transfers still tend to be faster with Ethernet USB adapters, etc.

I've also heard that TiVo's own adapter removes some of the overhead of file transfers on the unit due to it's design, which makes all the sense in the world to me. I've even witnessed first hand that having it within a program and on Pause while transfering speeds them up (pressumably because this too frees up resources within the unit).

So yea, has anyone seen a marked improvement with it or what? I avoided buying it initially 'cuz they won't ship it down to Puerto Rico so I would've had to make a relative re-send it, and I wanted to buy a Linksys adapter I could re-use in the future for other purposes.

I ended up discovering that the old WUSB54G I had worked out of blind luck, bought a new identical one for the PC (this one, of course, doesn't work with the TiVo, it's Ver. 4). I suppose to measure and compare I should gauge how long my OWN transfers have been taking...

Truth be told I should've done that by now but I was so eager to transfer some of the shows I recorded these first few weeks I totally forogot. A 1 hr X-Files episode I just started transfering (Medium Qual) is saying it'll take 1 hr and 40-ish min, probably under 1.5 hrs if I go and Pause the TiVo on a show and leave it like that thru the transfer.

I've had 30m High Quality animated shows (800 MB) take about an hour to transfer completely if I recall correctly. So, would TiVo's own adapter improve this any?

cdeckert219

01-25-2006, 12:30 AM

For what it's worth... I have one of the new TiVo branded wireless G adapters connected to my Humax DRT-400. I've got a Belkin Pre-N router; and an Airlink G PC card in my laptop. I'm currently transferring a file to my laptop, and Windows reports a transfer speed of 295KB/sec.

rog

01-25-2006, 04:57 PM

Is TiVo's own adapter noticeably better?

<snip>

So yea, has anyone seen a marked improvement with it or what?

<snip>

I've had 30m High Quality animated shows (800 MB) take about an hour to transfer completely if I recall correctly. So, would TiVo's own adapter improve this any?

Yes, yes, and probably yes. You really should search the forums a bit more. This thread might be a good place to start:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=278655

But, yes, I've seen many posters report increases in transfer speeds. I've not seen anyone post about a decrease in performance.

Impulses

01-25-2006, 06:14 PM

Thanks for the link, had to dig a lot past the initial WPA discussion to find some concrete info but it's there and the difference can apparently be very substantial... I've searched thru the forums a bit but I may have missed the info on that thread since it went off-topic for a few pages, sorry, very good info though.

The performance for TiVo's adapter seems to completely dwarf other adapters, not what I had expected from the comments I'd read elsewhere, I didn't expect anything in the magnitude of 50% faster.. :o Heck even 20% would've made me consider buying it but comments elswhere made it sound like a flaky proposition. Thanks once more.

greg_burns

01-25-2006, 06:33 PM

A poster in that thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3701983&&#post3701983) states the new wireless Tivo adapter is FASTER than a wired USB200M. Is this for real?

Impulses

01-25-2006, 07:51 PM

Well, much of it is relative to how you set it up, but TiVo's own adapter seems to be very efficient and in most cases it seems to be about on par with a wired connection... Other factors bottleneck either type of connection.

It's pretty clear that it's way more effective than other wireless adapters though, in an ideal situation you can almost transfer shows in real time to the TiVo, or close to it... Can't match that with anything but a wired adapter.

Being able to do that is rather convenient, right now I have to think it thru if I wanna transfer shows back to my TiVo from my PC on a whim because of how long it'll take.

With TiVo's adapter I could just set it, take a bathroom break or get a snack, and then start watching as it continues transfering; like mentioned in the above linked thread.

rog

01-27-2006, 01:25 PM

A poster in that thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3701983&&#post3701983) states the new wireless Tivo adapter is FASTER than a wired USB200M. Is this for real?

I don't know to be honest, but given that the new TiVo adapter was designed to offload some of the processing involved with TiVoToGo transfers, I would say it is feasible. MultiRoomViewing is probably a different story... I would expect wired connections to retain the advantage there, because MRV doesn't require the heavy processing that TTG incurs (which is now being offloaded).

greg_burns

01-27-2006, 03:39 PM

I don't know to be honest, but given that the new TiVo adapter was designed to offload some of the processing involved with TiVoToGo transfers, I would say it is feasible.

I could've swore TivoJerry said the new things it does couldn't be applied to a wired version that would make any differences. Now where's that thread gotten to?...

Edit: this is the post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3618039&&#post3618039) I was thinking of. That is how I interpreted his comments. :o

MultiRoomViewing is probably a different story... I would expect wired connections to retain the advantage there, because MRV doesn't require the heavy processing that TTG incurs (which is now being offloaded).

ufo4sale came back to that thread to say that was the only thing he tested. The mystery deepens. :p

Ok, I have 3 540 series II TiVo's. The only thing that I tested was the MRV AND NOTHING ELSE.

Might just have to buy one myself to find out one way or the other.

Kirkb

03-08-2006, 03:38 PM

TiVo won't discuss unannounced features - and WPA is such a feature.

I opened a ticket with TiVo support on WPA availability nearly two years ago. I think that, in response to my open issue, they should reconsider that policy. Especially now that they're losing market share to the cable company (whose DVR is half the monthly cost and can record 2 channels simultaneously), and to the Snapstream (Windows) and MythTV (OpenSource). Neither of which have monthly fees.

And no, Tivo support has NEVER had the courtesy to respond.

BigDTennisDon

04-15-2006, 02:25 PM

greg_burns

04-15-2006, 04:24 PM

I have two questions. (1) How do I submit a new Post? (2) I have a chance to buy a new AirLink "g" USB wireless adapter. Does anyone know if this brand will work. No AirLink units are even mentioned on TiVo Approved list...good or bad.
Thanks BigDTennisDon

At the top of the page click on "TiVo Home Media Features & TiVoToGo " link. From there you can start a new thread with the new thread button.

Wireless is very iffy with Tivo. If it isn't on this list, I would even try.

bbanks

10-03-2006, 10:32 AM

I am a bit frustrated trying to get a compatable adapter to work with my new Tivo series 2 DT. I purchased a Netgear tivo wireless usb adapter and installed, only to find out that it isn't on the compatability list. I returned it yesterday and along with my list of compatable adapters, purchased a D-Link DWL G122. It too was not compatable to the box.

Please advise....this is wayyyy more difficult than it should be.

Thanks,
Bob

greg_burns

10-03-2006, 12:34 PM