HDMI/DVI trouble with Vizio Plasma. TV or HDTivo issue?

[kgclark75]

I just purchased a new HD Vizio Plasma TV (from Costco) and HDTivo (from Solid Signal). I'm connecting the HDTivo through the supplied HDMI-DVI cable. The audio is connected to my receiver using the optical audio out.

The problem is that when I turn off the TV and the receiver, the HDTivo locks up and requires an unplug to be restarted. This is reproducible nearly every time. Like clockwork, about 20-30 seconds after turning the TV off, you can hear the Tivo's hard drive spin down and at that point, it will no longer accept any commands from the remote or front panel. If the TV is turned back on, the screen displays snow.

After several calls to D* tech support, they sent out a new HDTivo. Much to my dismay, I had the exact same problem with the new unit. The latest D* tech support guy thinks it's a problem with the HDMI-DVI conversion. They said that since the HDMI port carries audio and video, that somehow the (unused) audio portion of the signal is messing up the sync with the TV and causing the unit to lock up.

Does this sound like an HDMI issue on the Tivo, a problem with the Vizio plasma, or simply an incompatibility between the two? The build date on the first unit was 11/21/04 (the day before the supposed HDMI fix) and no date was listed on the second.

I don't have another TV with a DVI port and it would be a royal PITA to exchange the plasma. Although, I would definately be willing if it will fix the problem. Is it worth trying another brand of HDMI-DVI cable? (the only brand locally I can find is Monster at around $120)

[spooniep]

I have just purchased a Vizio P42HDe Plasma TV and HD TiVo, and have the almost the exact same problem.

If I turn off the TV for more than a couple of hours (not just a couple of minutes in my case), the HD TiVo locks up and displays only snow. I then have to unplug the TiVo and go through the 10 minute restart cycle every time.

I will try all of the following to see if they have any impact:

1) Switch down to 720p from 1080i (I think the picture looks better in 720p anyhow)
2) Open up the unit and check for a loose HDMI card (per other posts on a related topic)
3) Use Component instead of HDMI/DVI (this is the least appealing option, because the picture quality does degrade some from HDMI for me)

My guess is that only #3 will solve the problem, given other posts I've read on problems with the HDMI output on this receiver.

I'll post back with any results of my testing over the next few days.

BTW... I was using my Vizio with another HDCP DVI device for 3 weeks with absolutely no problems, so I wouldn't blame the TV. It's clear that the HDMI port on the HR 10-25 has flaws. With all of the unresolved issues with the HDMI output on this receiver It's starting to sound like good grounds for a class-action suit.

[kgclark75]

I tried switching the output resolutions and it made no difference. In my case, switching to Component video "solved" the problem. I personally can't tell the difference in picture quality. However, since only one of the Component video inputs on the Vizio seems to work with progressive scan devices, I had to turn off Progressive Scan on my DVD player which obviously negatively impacts DVD quality.

I also was using the DVI port with a stand-alone HD tuner/receiver for a few days before getting the HDtivo. It worked just fine, although the unit had a DVI port rather than an HDMI port like the Tivo.

Not using the HDMI port will have much more severe consequences once D* starts transmitting shows with HDCP protected content. Hopefully by that point, the problem will have been resolved.

[spooniep]

If I end up switiching to component, I suppose that I'll have the same issue with loss of quality on my DVD player (over 480i on the YcbCr input instead of 480p on the YpbPr input as it is today).

I'm guessing that the problem that we're encountering is different than the hardware failures reported elsewhere on this forum, and likely to be a software/firmware bug.

I decided I'd try one other thing... I ordered a new HDCP/DVI-D cable from a different manufacturer ($7.95 on eBay, why not?) I had read somewhere in another forum that this fixed the problem for someone with the same problem on a JVC TV.

[Robert Spalding]

i have the exact same problem and ordered a new replacement from D*. let's hope it works this time.

[nymjk]

Originally posted by spooniep
I have just purchased a Vizio P42HDe Plasma TV and HD TiVo, and have the almost the exact same problem.

If I turn off the TV for more than a couple of hours (not just a couple of minutes in my case), the HD TiVo locks up and displays only snow. I then have to unplug the TiVo and go through the 10 minute restart cycle every time.

I will try all of the following to see if they have any impact:

1) Switch down to 720p from 1080i (I think the picture looks better in 720p anyhow)
2) Open up the unit and check for a loose HDMI card (per other posts on a related topic)
3) Use Component instead of HDMI/DVI (this is the least appealing option, because the picture quality does degrade some from HDMI for me)

My guess is that only #3 will solve the problem, given other posts I've read on problems with the HDMI output on this receiver.

I'll post back with any results of my testing over the next few days.

BTW... I was using my Vizio with another HDCP DVI device for 3 weeks with absolutely no problems, so I wouldn't blame the TV. It's clear that the HDMI port on the HR 10-25 has flaws. With all of the unresolved issues with the HDMI output on this receiver It's starting to sound like good grounds for a class-action suit.
Spoon,
What is the build date of your HDTivo? Is it after the supposed "problem" date of 11/22/04?
I'm supposed to pick up mine tomorrow from VE (we live right near him) and was wondering, can one tell from the outer box what the build date is? I'd like to be able to check it out before opening the box, but I will if I have to.

[spooniep]

Originally posted by nymjk
Spoon,
What is the build date of your HDTivo? Is it after the supposed "problem" date of 11/22/04?
I'm supposed to pick up mine tomorrow from VE (we live right near him) and was wondering, can one tell from the outer box what the build date is? I'd like to be able to check it out before opening the box, but I will if I have to.

My build date turned out to be 11/3/04 (mexico), even though I just bought it.

I don't know if there's any way to know build dates from the outside of the box, and I've heard that January build models don't necessarily have a date on the receiver itself. So many other posts report problems even with post 11/22 models, that I doubt that will solve the problem. Of course, if it does, I'll be on the phone to D* as soon as possible to demand a replacement.

P.S. Does anyone know why the image is so much darker on the Component outputs than on HDMI? I've calibrated my TV to the same settings for both, and Component is still noticably darker. God, I wish the HDMI/DVI-HDCP output would just work properly on this!

[nymjk]

Hey Spoon,
So, how do you like the Vizio, all in all? I had authorization from she-who-must-be-obeyed to purchase the 37" Sony plasma when the Vizio/Costco deal came about. It was too good to pass up; damn near half the price of the Sony. Got it in the house for almost a week now and haven't opened it up -- I've got nothing to feed to it so figured I might as well wait.

[spooniep]

I've been very pleased with my Vizio so far. Make sure you got the P42HD "e" model (dark grey bezel), though, since everything I've heard is that it's much better thatn the old P42HD (silver bezel).

Colors are very vivid and black levels blow away similarly priced LCD sets. It performs best when fed with 720p/1080i content over the yPbPr port, or via DVI from everything (but for the damned HDTiVo bug).

Overall, the internal scaler performs admirably with all resolutions, and I haven't really noticed any issues with artifacting or combing on the image at all.

I have tried to use AVIA to calibrate the set to get the best performance, but I find that those settings generally end up too dark for my tastes and in my viewing area which has a decent amount of ambient light (I do usually stick with the AVIA settings in my home theater, where I can control the light better). Also, I find that I do have to bump up the brightness into the upper 50s or low 60s for all of the analog inputs in order reveal some detail that gets lost in the blacks when set to the AVIA setting. Go figure.

I think for $2K you really can't get better price/performance today. Most of what you can find for that price is 27-30" LCDs and a couple of poorly rated EDTV Plasmas. The LCDs seem anemic in size compared to the 42" Viz, and frankly, once you've become accustomed to HDTV, you can't turn back to EDTV.

My only gripe is with the quality of the audio built into the set. I do struggle with trying to get dialogue audible without the music and effects levels being too loud. I suppose much of my opinion on that is related to being used to watching films on a true 5.1 setup, rather than downmixed to 2 channels.

Feel free to send me a private message if you want to chat more about it, or check for the large P42HDe thread on AVSForum.

...now I return you to the topic at hand.

[Robert Spalding]

I called D* today and they gave the infamous "we are aware of it and are working on a fix" line. I just switched back to conponent for now and have to suffer with non-progressive scan for DVD's. I have the Xbox hooked up via VGA.

[spooniep]

I just read something on AVSForum that I'm gonna try to solve the DVI/HDMI issue:

"I purchased a Gefen DVI Detective, and it solved the problem. The HD Tivo never shuts off or acts strangely now. The DVI Detective reads the EDID data from the TV when it's first installed, then sends it to the Tivo so it thinks the TV is always on. The problem only happened when the TV was turned off for a while, then turned back on."

Interesting. I think I'll pick up one of those $69 buggers and see if it will work.

[TiMo Tim]

JVC has a hardware fix for their HD-ILA sets with this HDMI compatibility problem. I suspect the "software fix" being promised by D* will make a similar change to the protocol or handshake checks to avoid breaking the link when one or the other is powered off.

Why spend $69 for a fix? Demand a hardware fix from your TV manufacturer! (Or a software fix from D*!) I wonder who's really at fault with this problem. JVC says the problem only exists when connected to some video sources (HD-TiVo being one of them, and possibly the Zenith DVB-318 being another).

Tim

[spooniep]

JVC has a hardware fix for their HD-ILA sets with this HDMI compatibility problem. I suspect the "software fix" being promised by D* will make a similar change to the protocol or handshake checks to avoid breaking the link when one or the other is powered off.

Why spend $69 for a fix? Demand a hardware fix from your TV manufacturer! (Or a software fix from D*!) I wonder who's really at fault with this problem. JVC says the problem only exists when connected to some video sources (HD-TiVo being one of them, and possibly the Zenith DVB-318 being another).

Tim

Unfortunately, demanding results from either D* or V, Inc. is pretty futile. Given the numerous users who have tried to get D* to do something about the problems with HDMI on the HR10-250, and the lack of tech support that I've heard about from Vizio owners, I think that I'd rather spend $69 than spend hours of my time on the phone getting passed around tech support hell.

[jmorgis]

The 11/22 date means NOTHING. I dont know who started that. But my Dec 2nd build (actually my second HDTivo) died exactly as my first (bad HDMI)

The 3rd replacement came last week, i just moved the HDMI card to my tivo and didnt loose any programming.

I dont think there is ANY fix for the HDMI problem...(sorry to say)

JM

[spooniep]

The 11/22 date means NOTHING. I dont know who started that. But my Dec 2nd build (actually my second HDTivo) died exactly as my first (bad HDMI)

The 3rd replacement came last week, i just moved the HDMI card to my tivo and didnt loose any programming.

I dont think there is ANY fix for the HDMI problem...(sorry to say)

JM

The HDMI issue we're talking about isn't the hardware failure issue that many people have experienced. It's a software issue that causes the HD TiVo to freeze after you turn off your Vizio P42HDe Plasma TV, so the DVI Detective might just work to fix that particular problem.

[qdoggg]

Yup... same problem with the Vizio here. I'm just gonna go component and wait it out a bit before plopping down another $69+.

Please post updates!

[Robert Spalding]

I just bought the DVI Detective online, Should have it early next week, I'll post my results then.

[Robert Spalding]

Got the DVI Detective hooked up and all is well. Haven't had the HDCP/HDMi handshake problem since I hooked it up (three days)

all is good, Xbox via RGB with the VGA2Xbox adaptor and the DVI Detective frees up a progressive scan port for my DVD player.

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

As a professional courtesy we are offering forum members the Gefen detective for $60.

-Robert

[spooniep]

Got the DVI Detective hooked up and all is well. Haven't had the HDCP/HDMi handshake problem since I hooked it up (three days)

all is good, Xbox via RGB with the VGA2Xbox adaptor and the DVI Detective frees up a progressive scan port for my DVD player.

Great to hear. I'll be ordering one today! My DVD player looks so crappy on the 480i input, so I'm psyched.

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

I called Gefen to order the DVI detective this morning and one for the engineers told me that it won't work for our application. The engineer told me that this is a PC data only devise and specifically is designed NOT to work with HDMI as it would be a violation of HDMI copyright laws to pass the flag in this application.

I know this sound crazy and of course, I do not in any way doubt anything is saying here, I just wanted to pass along what the Gefen engineer told me.

-Robert

[qdoggg]

Can anyone verify if the 3.1.5f update fixes this problem?

:confused:

[Robert Spalding]

My DVI Detective has been going strong for two weeks now. I will try the F update without the Detective in use to see if that fixes it and then sell the darn thing on ebay or craigslist.

[spooniep]

My DVI Detective has been going strong for two weeks now. I will try the F update without the Detective in use to see if that fixes it and then sell the darn thing on ebay or craigslist.

Did you get the 3.1.5f update yet? If so, did it have any impact on the problem?

[Robert Spalding]

I have not received it yet!

[qdoggg]

Bumpity...

Someone please say this is fixed with "f"... my dvd really wants to "progress".

+ my DVI is lonely.

[spooniep]

Well, while still waiting for the 3.15f upgrade (and slightly possible fix), I went ahead ang got the DVI Detective anyhow. It works perfectly, and it's really not that much money (retail about $60). I've had 3 days now without a freeze-up/ white snow problem on my Vizio over DVI/HDCP.

BTW... has anyone noticed that the Vizio had alot more perceptible 'dithering' in dark colors over DVI than it has over component? I had to dial my brightness settings way down compared to the component input to reduce this effect to a reasonably acceptable level.

[nymjk]

Is there any real difference in PQ once the settings are all adjusted?
I use my receiver as a video switcher and, all things considered, would prefer to avoid the cost of two long (25' at least) DVI cables and the Gefen box if possible. But if there is a real difference I might be so inclined. Oh yeah, what is "dithering"?

[spooniep]

Is there any real difference in PQ once the settings are all adjusted?
I use my receiver as a video switcher and, all things considered, would prefer to avoid the cost of two long (25' at least) DVI cables and the Gefen box if possible. But if there is a real difference I might be so inclined. Oh yeah, what is "dithering"?

I find that the picture is a little sharper over DVI than it was on component, but not to the extent that I'd spend more than $50 to $60 for the improvement.

Oh, and one other thing -- the gefen DVI Detective comes with a short (1 ft or so) DVI Male-to-Male cable so you should only need one HDMI to DVI cable to connect from the TiVo to the input on the DVI Detective.

When I say "dithering" I mean the effect that occurs when the set creates shades of colors by creating a pixel pattern (which results in a sort of stippled/dotted look if you're up close to the screen). It's not particularly noticeable if you're sitting at a normal distance, and I actually think that the same problem was there over component too. The reason it's more noticeable over DVI is that since it's sharper, the dots are more pronounced and less fuzzy.

It's not a huge deal, but it is kind of annoying in dark scenes. This causes the "clay face" issue that has been reported elsewhere on this and many other plasma screens.

[nymjk]

Got it. Thanks for the advise.

[qdoggg]

Got the f update... still busted. Sorry, no fix for me. :down: :(

Now instead of the colored snow, i get a nice blank screen with the same tivo lock up requiring an unplug and reboot.

Can anyone else confirm? I'll try again later this week, when i get a chance between scheduled recordings.

Looks like a DVI detective is the way to go. I don't see it listed on the "special" VE website... is it still $60 ? Does that include shipping?

[Robert Spalding]

I've had the DVI Detectve running for almost 3 months now and it works great. I tried without it once I got "f" but it locks up still. good investment for $60

[commwave]

I have the same prob. as spoonieg and kgclark75 when connecting via a HDMI/DVI cable the VIZIO P42HDe and D* HR10-250. Handshake issue once i turn off the Vizio, and later turn back on, the HR10-250 isn't connected, and result, the now infamous, "colored snow".

I'll try the Gefen DVI Detective and see if it helps me - I'm on a 2nd D* unit....

Any other solutions out there?...component doesn't look as good....

txs!

[Robert Spalding]

I have been on the DVI Detective since Jan/Feb 2005 and it works great.

[olegoz]

I am having the same issue with the Sceptre that I bought From Costco. TV is connected HDMI to HDMI, once tv is turned off it is only a matter of time before the unit locks up.

[jakerome]

I'm also having the exact same problem with the Sceptre. Since the Sceptre has an HDMI input, I'm not sure if the DVI Detective will work. I'm on my second HD TiVo unit-- the first one seemed to have other problems as well, so I was happy enough to trade it in. Any idea if the DVI Detective will work for this situation? Can I use it with an HDMI-DTV cable, DVI Detective, DTV-HDMI cable and just strip out the audio?

So consider it verified that the same problem happens with the Sceptre X37. Thanks for the help.

[Robert Spalding]

I'm also having the exact same problem with the Sceptre. Since the Sceptre has an HDMI input, I'm not sure if the DVI Detective will work. I'm on my second HD TiVo unit-- the first one seemed to have other problems as well, so I was happy enough to trade it in. Any idea if the DVI Detective will work for this situation? Can I use it with an HDMI-DTV cable, DVI Detective, DTV-HDMI cable and just strip out the audio?

So consider it verified that the same problem happens with the Sceptre X37. Thanks for the help.


that's exactly what I do.

Tivo HDMI/DVI cable to DVI Detective to Vizio via DVI cable. works like a charm. about every few months I have hopeful thoughts that it will work HDMI to my Plasma and I take the Detective out of the mix.....and the lockup happens.

[jakerome]

Well almost. The difference is I only have a HDMI input and no DVI input; I think both the TiVo & TV came with HDMI-DVI cables, so I hope that I can go HDMI-->DVI-->DVI detective-->DVI-->HDMI. Has anyone hooked up an HDMI TV with the DVI Detective?

And shame on DirecTV for not fixing this after a year and shipping knowingly defective units.

[Robert Spalding]

that set up will work too. HDMI is just DVI with audio anyway.

[kgclark75]

Well, I returned the 42" Vizio to Costco and got the 50" model instead. I'm happy to report that the hdmi problem does not exist with this newer model.

[Budget_HT]

Pardon me for saying LCD here (chuckle), but I have the Vizio 32" flat panel LCD (< $1K from Sam's Club) connected HDMI to HDMI with my HD TiVo and everything works fine so far. I suspect the Vizio products could come from more than one OEM source and would likely have different firmware bewteen models.

[jakerome]

Anyone know if there's been a TiVo update to fix this problem? I've got the 37" Sceptre LCD. Right now I'm using the component connections, but I'd like to free those up for my DVD player. I'm about to pull the trigger on the DVI Detective, but if there's another solution I'd rather save the money. Thanks.

[Wiz33]

FWIW, I just received the New Sceptre 42" and my HD TIVO no longer locks up while connect via HDMI (as with the Sceptre 37").