Mac Users lack Tivo togo support

[tonyf3]

Unbelievable! Have the development team take a field trip to an Apple retail store and then tell me why the finest most powerful Media platform in the computer business is basically being ignored by Tivo. There's no time line or even a suggestion of a release date. Working hard doesn't cut it.
AAC file support was supposedly being worked on hard for over a year now.

Look, the Cable companies are now offering set top boxes for $9.95.
Tivo needs all the users it can get and they basically are abandoning the Mac community.

All this build up, and it's....sorry Apple. Windows Media 10? Have a nice day?
We're working hard on that...someday. What!!!!

Newsflash: Broadcast networks are using Quicktime as a media standard for delivery to multiple platforms. Hello!

You've got to come up with something better than market share BS. Try telling that to BMW & ipod owners.

[SavMan]

Agreed. Absolutely unacceptable. Mac users make up a sizable number of TiVo users, and for them to forsake us like this is simply abhorrent. I just bought a new TiVo for my family and convinced my friend's family to buy one for Christmas, there is a TiVo cling in my apartment window and on my car (along with an antenna ball). This sort of crap is making me rethink my loyalties. It may be a long while before I suggest a TiVo to someone again, rewards program be damned.

[Duvs]

Let me know how it works out with the cable company box when you try to:

a) Play music or view photos on it that are stored on your Mac

b) Get any kind of recorded content off of it

The simple reason is that the cable companies may never provide this kind of functionality. I don't know about you but I wouldn't even attempt to install anything on my PC developed by Comcast, even their cable modem "install" CD breaks more PC's than it helps and all it is doing is modifying some IE registry settings and installing their crap support utils.

I believe Tivo to be smart enough to be doing the only thing it can do without the CableCard 2.0 spec, and that is to add mobility and multimedia features that the CableCo's can't touch for a while. Then once CableCard 2 is done and I can do OnDemand and PPV and truly use my Tivo as a replacement for by Cable Box, that will be a marketable device.

I know it's been said a million times but Mac's are about 4% of the computing world, since TiVo is a multimedia company it's possible their user base is more like 10 maybe even 15% Mac. Just have a little patience, they have publicly commited on their announcements to providing a Mac version of TTG. I'm also sure once it is out it will be superior to our Windows version in every way possible just like the last release.

Duvs

[Unix_Beard]

Sure, cable companies can't provide the HMO functionality but Apple IS today with iTunes and the Airport Express. itunes and iPhoto are already completely shareable within a house LAN and its just a matter of time until things completely converge.

One of the things that brought me to Tivo rather than ReplayTV was their apparent agnostic view on computer platforms. Once a company chooses one platform over another, I begin to question their loyalty to me as a customer.

[SavMan]

TiVo has committed NOTHING to the Mac release. They say they are working hard, but give absolutely no idea of how long we'll have to wait for it. Indeed, they make no promise at all of ever getting it to us.

Really, I don't know if it's worth even hoping, TiVo was stupid enough to go with WMA format. You think MSFT had something to do with this? Maybe their particular brand of business ethics helped out? And really, is that the sort of image TiVo, a corporation almost entirely spread through grassroots advertising by users, wants to align themselves with?

I'm thoroughly disgusted with this entire development. I heard the announcement on my 6am news broadcast as I was drifting off to sleep, so I literally *jumped* out of bed to get online. Only to find out that TiVo has shown they have no sense of loyalty to what I can only presume is its most dedicated group of customers. We Mac users are tenacious and used to proselytizing for our platform, and I've never heard stronger testaments to TiVo's usefulness than I have from Mac users. We'll see how that goes now that TiVo has turned its back on us.

P.S:

Let me know how it works out with the cable company box when you try to:

a) Play music or view photos on it that are stored on your Mac


Photos are useless to me, I'm better off using my desktop or laptop anyways. For $100, I can get an AirPort Express, which will function as a full wireless router, bridge, adaptor, and also connect with AirTunes. This will give me better sound (direct to my stereo), AND play the AACs (DRM'd or otherwise) that TiVo's been dragging their feet on for so long. This is less than the cost of either of my TiVo boxes. Add $9.99 a month for any of the Cable or Satellite PVRs (all of which have Dual Tuners, mind you) and I have a much better value, don't I?

Of course, I wish I could just use my TiVo. As a Mac user, I'm used to paying a premium for superior ease-of-use and service, as well as to reward innovators rather than also-rans. But it seems I'm no longer considered worth TiVo's time.


b) Get any kind of recorded content off of it


Well, I can't do that anyway, now can I? :down:

[VinceA]

Originally posted by SavMan
Really, I don't know if it's worth even hoping, TiVo was stupid enough to go with WMA format.
Ummm, TiVo doesn't support WMAs. The only way to play WMAs through TiVos is by using third-party software.

[SavMan]

Excuse me VinceA, I made a mistake there. TiVo chose to run TiVoToGo through Windows Media Player. However, the files themselves are MPEG2 not WMA. I was mislead by another poster to believe that the actual files were Windows Media. In any case, the point remains -- choosing a Media Key that only works through MSFT's proprietary system is most likely the reason for this delay, and that makes me a little peeved.

[benvon]

Hmm... yeah, I'm dissapointed too. I only have Macs at home and I would very much like to use this cool new feature.

On the other hand...

Tivo mentions that VLC works on Windows 2000 for playing the content. VLC has a very, very stable and good port to Mac OS X. Why can't VLC on Mac OS X play it when VLC can play it on Winders?

[VinceA]

From a quick look at the documentation, it looks like you use TiVo Desktop to choose a program to view on your computer, enter a password, "something happens" then a media player (WMP10, VLC, etc) shows the program. I think the delay for Macs is in the "something happens" section. Maybe there's some decoding/transcoding/etc process that appears to be outside of the media player's control. So, TiVo isn't tied to Windows Media Player but the decoding/transcoding/etc portion for Macs isn't ready yet.

Of course, I could be wrong (probably am) :)

[SteveJ]

Not including Mac support is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. TiVo just doesn't have its act together---to screw over a portion of its user base that likely constitutes some of its biggest proponents is baffling. Additionally, to require the purchase of special software to burn shows to viewable DVDs (which incidentally probably also will never get a Mac version even if TiVo someday releases an updated version of their own desktop) is also ridiculous.

Disrepect, no support for HDTV cable, and a higher price than what I can get from Comcast---that's it, cya TiVo.

[IrishTiVo]

After just buying my second TiVo, I'm a little pissed that there is no support for Macs. I've had a show or two waiting for DVD backup for over a year! Sigh...

[briguymaine]

please don't make me get a PC... I like what some folks are saying that MacWorld next week may reveal some cool Tivo integration, but I doubt it. But, I'm staying positive and things may happen!

[rainwater]

Does anyone read the actual details that Tivo posted? They said they are working on the Mac solution. They wouldn't say that if they weren't going to have one. It's not available now. I know that sucks if you have a Mac, but thats the facts.

[nealm]

As a Mac only household, we are used to this treatment from all software makers.

Interestingly, Microsoft is one of the best at supporting the Mac through great releases of the Office software. So I wouldn't be too quick to bash them.

Oh well, the wait continues....

[Unix_Beard]

Originally posted by briguymaine
please don't make me get a PC... I like what some folks are saying that MacWorld next week may reveal some cool Tivo integration, but I doubt it. But, I'm staying positive and things may happen!

I find it hard to believe that Jobs would say anything about Tivo at Macworld. Tivo is inconsequential to Apple - the only news worthy of Macworld would be Apple acquiring Tivo.

Now, I wouldn't bet against Apple assuming the market completely with a new gadget.

[mac_media]

I don't think (although hope springs eternal) that anything will be announced at MacWorld. I have been a Mac User for 17 years and have become used to waiting longer for releases than all my friends with Wintel boxes. I believe the software will come, and with the current iteration of Tivo Desktop as an example, I believe it will be robust. We do constitute a relative minority when it comes to the percentage of desktop users. However, I do not believe that this is a reason that some one who paid $X for a Tivo should get less use out of it just because a Macintosh better suits his or her needs. I do also acknowlegdge that Tivo has more competition from MediaCenter on the Windows side than anything comparable on the Macintosh side. I guess the point of this ramble is just that I, like many of you, feel slighted but I also do understand the business side of the equation. I have been very happy with Tivo and will continue to be, I'll just wait patiently until I'm able to share in my friends' enthuasiam over this new feature.

[scheckeNYK]

Here's my opinion in the Mac debacle. This is coming from a former employee at an Apple retail store. About 18 months ago the Apple stores were getting Tivos in stock and were ready to sell them. They were abruptly pulled from the inventory and sent back to warehouse with no rhyme or reason. The assumption was that Apple was considering developing it's own DVR. After many moons had passed without any sign of this, I basically wrote it off as a simple fickle decision by the merchandising team. It seems Apple is all gung0ho on iPod variations and is perhaps not ready to jump into the DVR market.

Now that I've seen this development, my mind has changed again. I think we will see something at MacWorld, but not Tivo compatibility related. I think Apple will debut their own settop DVR to be a physcial digital lifestyle hub. I think we can all agree that it was a major shock that there was ZERO support for T2G on Macs. Perhaps this wasn't at the behest of Tivo, but Apple instead? I think this could be really great, and I wouldn't hesitate to jump ship over to an Apple branded DVR. Their software is usually on point, and I bet it would have all the features we've asked for. They already have a very easy to use subscription format with the iTMS, so that's no hangup.

Imagine an all white settop DVR with built in airport card, able to stream iTunes, iPhoto, and all your programs back and forth from the unit to your Mac. Fully integrated with iMovie, FCP, iDVD, and/or DVDSP using the QuickTime Codec. Remote programming from any Mac and sharing across a network. One touch backup of programs via FireWire to external harddrives. What else could they cram into the next big thing? The only problem I see here is price point. If its a proprietary Apple unit, you know it will be up there. The iPods alone are between $300 and $600.

[cwoody222]

Apple stores almost selling TiVo's? I've never heard that rumor ANYWHERE. I don't believe it.

Apple w/ their own DVR? I've heard that rumor a million times and I still don't believe it. I'd LOVE it if it were true, but I just don't see it happening.

I sure hope I'm wrong, though. (and maybe, just maybe, the sub-$500 headless iMac is the answer)

[tonyf3]

I like scheckeNYK's thinking on this. How about ipod video player too. Has anyone noticed the horizontal shape of an ipod. Practically 16x9. Turn it on it's side add a flip up Color screen + an AV/file transfer dock to TiVo or Apple and presto. ipod Video toGo. I think this deserves a picture.

I sincerely hope MacWorld SF brings some relief on the Mac support issue.
In the meantime Canopus ADVC-55 via Firewire to idvd is filling the void.

[sa-gamer]

For those of you that pre-paid for Tivo2Go I would ask for a refund! I did when I found out my Ti994A wouldn't be supported!

[Unix_Beard]

Originally posted by scheckeNYK
Imagine an all white settop DVR with built in airport card, able to stream iTunes, iPhoto, and all your programs back and forth from the unit to your Mac. Fully integrated with iMovie, FCP, iDVD, and/or DVDSP using the QuickTime Codec. Remote programming from any Mac and sharing across a network. One touch backup of programs via FireWire to external harddrives. What else could they cram into the next big thing? The only problem I see here is price point. If its a proprietary Apple unit, you know it will be up there. The iPods alone are between $300 and $600.

As long as it has an ethernet jack as well, you outline my wish completely. Would this device run Tivo software? If not, why would Tivo listen to Apple and not include HMO support? It seems to me they would be direct competitors.

[scheckeNYK]

Originally posted by cwoody
Apple stores almost selling TiVo's? I've never heard that rumor ANYWHERE. I don't believe it.

Apple w/ their own DVR? I've heard that rumor a million times and I still don't believe it. I'd LOVE it if it were true, but I just don't see it happening.

I sure hope I'm wrong, though. (and maybe, just maybe, the sub-$500 headless iMac is the answer)

I can 100% guarantee you that they were in the inventory to be sold. 40s and 80s, series 2. Then, like I said, yanked without notice before they hit shelves. Around the same time, Tivo offered Apple employees corporate discounts on S2 units, which is where mine came from. I have no definitive way to back this info up, other than the word of a still current employee, who won't comment due to her still working for Apple.

Point is, there has definitely been a relationship between the two that has soured on multiple occasions. Apple is VERY secretive and I wouldn't be surprised if they keep pulling out in favor of developing their own wares. And personally, like I said, I would prefer it. I love my Tivo, but I can't wait to see how Apple would revolutionize the DVR.

[scheckeNYK]

Originally posted by Unix_Beard
As long as it has an ethernet jack as well, you outline my wish completely. Would this device run Tivo software? If not, why would Tivo listen to Apple and not include HMO support? It seems to me they would be direct competitors.

Yes, I imagine they'd also have an onboard ethernet jack. Could also have a built in iPod dock (a la the headless iMac), and a multi-format photo card reader slot. Would FireWire i/o be a good feature? for use as a DV bridge?

But I do see it going the route of direct competetors. Apple could win that war in my estimation, and if their software is really on point it would be another vehicle in converting more windows users. Which then leaves the Mac-less Tivo in the dust fighting for what's left of the PC market. Okay, okay, so that dream is a bit overdone, but Apple has been gathering a lot of steam these last few years, and its all been driven by personal indulgence items. I'm sure they are aware of that and want to become the leader in another arena.

[zoinks]

Originally posted by tonyf3
Unbelievable! Have the development team take a field trip to an Apple retail store and then tell me why the finest most powerful Media platform in the computer business is basically being ignored by Tivo. There's no time line or even a suggestion of a release date. Working hard doesn't cut it.
AAC file support was supposedly being worked on hard for over a year now.


Aren't you used to getting Mac software a few weeks or months after the PC version is released? It seems common among most applications I have run across (IF they are nice enough to offer Mac support)

I have only had my iMac for a few months but have already realized and accepted this.

I have both a PC and a MAC, and the MAC version of Tivo Home Media Server Application is MUCH better than the PC's. So I don't think Tivo has ignored Mac users at all.

[timg]

Sure, I'm used to getting software months after the PC version is released. That'd be fine if Tivo committed to that, but at the moment they have committed to nothing. "we are working on a Mac version" is not the same as "we plan to release the Mac version in Q2 of 2005".

If Tivo was really concerned with cross platform compatibility, why did they choose a proprietary Windows only format?

[Unix_Beard]

On Apple selling Tivo units:

TiVo CEO: Select Apple Stores to sell TiVo systems
May 23, 2003 - 15:13 EDT__ TiVo CEO Michael Ramsay said Thursday in the company's first quarter financial conference call that select Apple Stores will soon be carrying TiVo Digital Video Recorders (DVR). After mentioning that TiVo's new Home Media Option runs on the Mac, Ramsay said, "In fact our growing relationship with Apple has been a really good thing for our company and we're now moving into distribution, with TiVo's being available at selected Apple retail stores."

http://www.macminute.com/2003/05/23/tivo

[SavMan]

rainwater:

Does anyone read the actual details that Tivo posted? They said they are working on the Mac solution. They wouldn't say that if they weren't going to have one. It's not available now. I know that sucks if you have a Mac, but thats the facts.


********. No facts were given. "We are working on it," can just as likely mean, "we decided not to make a version for Mac, but we sure as hell don't want 20% of our user base jumping ship in protest, so we'll make them hold out for a year and see how many more people we can get to jump on and buy our box." Kind of like promising TiVoToGo as included with the package for the last few months, but in reality requiring the purchase of codecs and a burning program. They new damn well it would cost a lot of users money, but decided to fleece the anyway for their bottom line.

As an example of "we're working on it," meaning "never gonna happen," see Half-Life for Mac. I just hope TiVo realizes the numbers and vocalness of its Mac user contingent and wises up soon, or there will be some MAJOR losses for this corporation. As I've said before, Mac users are incredibly unified and stubborn. One of my friends today SENT HIS BOX BACK because of this. I'm not going that far, yet.

Has anyone found an official channel in which to notify TiVo of their huge mistake yet?

[Unix_Beard]

I was about to pay the lifetime fee for mine. I'm holding off now.

[Morris Herman]

I also am disappointed that Tivo has delayed the release of TTG for the Mac. Like many have said it here, the Mac community is a strong one and we are great proselytizers for a brand, but if we get crossed, our ire will be felt financially by Tivo.

[bondgirl]

Originally posted by scheckeNYK
I can 100% guarantee you that they were in the inventory to be sold. 40s and 80s, series 2. Then, like I said, yanked without notice before they hit shelves. Around the same time, Tivo offered Apple employees corporate discounts on S2 units, which is where mine came from. I have no definitive way to back this info up, other than the word of a still current employee, who won't comment due to her still working for Apple.

Point is, there has definitely been a relationship between the two that has soured on multiple occasions. Apple is VERY secretive and I wouldn't be surprised if they keep pulling out in favor of developing their own wares. And personally, like I said, I would prefer it. I love my Tivo, but I can't wait to see how Apple would revolutionize the DVR.

I can also verify, as an ex-apple employee, that there were Tivo units ready to be sold in the stockroom that never went on the shelves, and went back to the factory without seeing any action. I was made the same offer on a Tivo at an employee discount. However, our manager told employees that the reason apple decided we weren't going to be selling them is that they didn't want to train anyone on the features and benefits (time and money) and that apple decided it wanted retail stores to focus its energy on selling its own products. Airport Express was going to make HMO relatively moot, I think as well. Basically, she painted it as an inability between apple and tivo to reach an agreement about how the products would be marketed and sold in the stores. She or apple may have been blowing smoke however - I have no way to verify that what we were told is true, but that's the story we were sold at our store...

I am accustomed to waiting a little longer for Mac versions of things. I just got Tivo last week and am very happy with it so far. Plus the mac hacking community is usually strong enough to step up and fill the void if Tivo decides not to go forward with Tivo2Go for Macs. But I hope they will because I really am enjoying my Tivo so far and moving programs to my G5 so I could watch them while writing papers for grad school would just be heaven. :-) I'm going to be optimistic here...

[tonyf3]

Ok so,
CES January 6-9 in Las Vegas.
Expecting possible announcements of the Netflix download marriage,
more TiVo Togo etc.etc.

Macworld January 10-14 in San Francisco
Who knows....but there are almost always surprises.

So basically I think if we should have an answer from someone as to WHEN we'll see TiVo ToGo
for Mac and TiVo desktop 2.0 for Mac, by January 30th. Or something even better from Apple.

I think that's a reasonable expectation. If not, sharpen the pitch Forks

[SullyND]

Originally posted by Morris Herman
I also am disappointed that Tivo has delayed the release of TTG for the Mac. Like many have said it here, the Mac community is a strong one and we are great proselytizers for a brand, but if we get crossed, our ire will be felt financially by Tivo.

These kind of threads always amaze me. I'm sure somewhere there is someone who has studied this kind of product fanaticism.

Anyway, I just don't see why there is all the whining... Would people have preferred that TiVoToGo was delayed entirely for, say, 6 months so that Mac support would be available at the same time as PC? Think of it this way, we PC folks are going to be your Guinea Pigs...

Sully - who needs a PC to do his real work... but all things considered would prefer a Mac....

[Unix_Beard]

Sully - its statements like the last one that enflame these threads. Many of us do "real" work with Macs.

[ralphpe]

What I really want to know is whether the IT people are the ones who are working on bringing TTG to the Mac, or whether it's the lawyers. As every Mac user should be aware of, Macs are a minority, and when it comes to assigning the resources of a company, it makes sense to first focus on the larger market segment. Once things are going well in Windows land, I am sure they would be able to move people to work on the Mac project, and it will only be a matter of time.

But if the people working on the Mac solution are the lawyers or the marketeers, then I'd be a lot more skeptical. If DRM is closely tie to WMP, or if the Mac section of the market is considered inconsequential, than I am not sure what would happen

[SullyND]

Originally posted by Unix_Beard
Sully - its statements like the last one that enflame these threads. Many of us do "real" work with Macs.

Never said no one could do "real work" on a Mac - only that I can't. One Word: AutoDesk

(Which is also why I said "all things considered [I] would prefer a Mac....")

[jwedding]

I work with a Dell at work for the same reason. I use an iMac at home because I like to.


But you're just bear-baiting when you make a comment about real-work. Just don't poke the bear and you won't get the negative reactions. Unix was right, those are the comments that get people all riled up.

Welcome to the board!

[SullyND]

Originally posted by jwedding
I work with a Dell at work for the same reason. I use an iMac at home because I like to.

But you're just bear-baiting when you make a comment about real-work. Just don't poke the bear and you won't get the negative reactions. Unix was right, those are the comments that get people all riled up.

Welcome to the board!

Thanks for the Welcome - So to elaborate - My "real work" is what my employer pays me to do (I'm a "Graduate" [pre-license] architect)... My non "real work" are my side jobs, and though some of them are Mac friendly (Web development) the ones that pay best are not (Building Design Services) thus I need a PC at home...

The comment was "his [my] real work" not "any real work"

[LeeG]

Has anyone looked at the breakdown of mac vs pc tivo owners? Reading these boards, seems there is a large mac contingent (or they are more vocal).

I am also disappointed about the mac release, however, you never know if it wasn't apple's fault - things like this require tight DRM integration, and if Apple didn't want to help (I am sure microsoft was happy to help), either due to an Apple solution in the wings, or for whatever reason, that may be tivo's sticking point-

Lee
"You can have my mac when you pry it from my cold dead hands!"

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by SullyND
These kind of threads always amaze me. I'm sure somewhere there is someone who has studied this kind of product fanaticism.

Anyway, I just don't see why there is all the whining... Would people have preferred that TiVoToGo was delayed entirely for, say, 6 months so that Mac support would be available at the same time as PC? Think of it this way, we PC folks are going to be your Guinea Pigs...

Sully - who needs a PC to do his real work... but all things considered would prefer a Mac....



Actually Sully, Yeah! I'd rather have them say upfront: Windows TTG in January and you can expect the Mac TTG version in June, and spare us all the unmitigated aggravation of flipping off the Creative Worlds favorite OS and it's rabidly loyal followers. If they had done that there would be no reason for this thread I started.

When your favorite child is messed with publicly the Parents usually are over protective and over react. So it's genetic with Mac users.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by LeeG
Has anyone looked at the breakdown of mac vs pc tivo owners? Reading these boards, seems there is a large mac contingent (or they are more vocal).

I am also disappointed about the mac release, however, you never know if it wasn't apple's fault - things like this require tight DRM integration, and if Apple didn't want to help (I am sure microsoft was happy to help), either due to an Apple solution in the wings, or for whatever reason, that may be tivo's sticking point-

Lee
"You can have my mac when you pry it from my cold dead hands!"


Lee,
If this is Apple's fault I will appologize whole heartedly to the TiVo development team for my ranting.
They could also say Apple wasn't interested in helping us out. I know there are probably all kinds of NDA's involved but there are ways to let the truth be known.

[themacjedi]

I'm going to wait for Apple at next weeks MacWorld to announce their own DVR or give full support to TiVo before becoming completely pissed.

I paid for HMO a while before it was free, I can live with that.
I found out that HMO can't play my AAC files, I can't live with that.

I would honestly rather wait than to have to deal with viruses and spyware just to be the first to have T2G. But as a Mac user I have become accustomed to waiting, unless of course it's from Apple.

I'm sure only a few people really know whos fault it is that we have to wait, it could be Apple for not giving support to TiVo or it could be TiVo for putting us on the back burner. We will never know.

[porovaara]

Hey it could be worse... we are primarily a Mac house @ home (1 pc laptop, 1 lunix for pbx/javahmo and 1 freebsd for firewall/4 macs) so we could only watch TTG on the pc. But oh wait, the sucker that I am, I bought the new, HEAVILY pushed, HUMAX DVDR... cuz you know Tivo kept saying it was the best thing since the original series 1. So not only do we have to wait for mac support but we get to wait until SPRING (and knowing how Tivo is now that means August) before our Tivo is even supported.

[tonyf3]

So, Jan 6th CES Las Vegas today, maybe some news. Like the Mac release schedule for TiVo togo.

[Danimal4326]

looks like getting the files off on a mac will not be a problem. Playing them back will be the issue.

in 7.x the tivo runs a web server, and its pretty trivial to pull the recording off


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215838

[tonyf3]

Thanks for the glimmer of hope Danimal. The Bill Gates news was making me ill.

[tonyf3]

I've seen some other posts on a new Headless Mac beig announced at Macworld next week. Also, one on Apple buying TiVo. One can only dream.

[jpd]

The embedded web server is neat, and it's a promising sign that TiVo has done what it needs to do to enable full cross-platform support. But the video files will still use the Microsoft DRM, won't they? That seems to be the real sticking point.

Does anyone know if TiVo is using a "version 1" DRM license? If so, Macintosh support is really a trivial issue of putting the pieces together, and people who want to do it themselves can probably do so easily. If not, we have to wait for Windows Media Player 10 for Mac OS X.

From the Microsoft web site:
Content providers can issue several different versions of DRM licenses; however, Windows Media Player 9 for Mac OS X only supports version 1 licenses. This means that you might be able to play some protected files, but not others.

We have informed our content partners about this issue so that they can decide whether to offer version 1 licenses to their customers who use Macintosh computers.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by jpd
The embedded web server is neat, and it's a promising sign that TiVo has done what it needs to do to enable full cross-platform support. But the video files will still use the Microsoft DRM, won't they? That seems to be the real sticking point.

Does anyone know if TiVo is using a "version 1" DRM license? If so, Macintosh support is really a trivial issue of putting the pieces together, and people who want to do it themselves can probably do so easily. If not, we have to wait for Windows Media Player 10 for Mac OS X.

From the Microsoft web site:


Great. I think I have to wait for the 7.1 update to get pushed before I can try the embedded web server. Correct? I could use this to pull the files until TiVo Desktop 2.0 for OSX comes out.
Then it's a question of DRM. Does VLC support the DRM license?

[Unix_Beard]

Talking to a beta tester, it sounds like vlc on Windows supports the M$ DRM. And looking at the vlc features page, it appears (if I'm reading it correctly) that vlc on windows supports WMV 1,2, and 3 files whereas the Mac version only supports WMV versions 1 and 2. I presume Tivo is using WMV v3 and the Mac users are screwed. (http://videolan.org/vlc/features.html)

Its funny that M$ was able to get Tivo to use their codec. Here, Apple has pulled off the best implementation of DRM in the history of protected media (iTMS) and yet its not used for Tivo.

[Unix_Beard]

Wow. I think Mac users are f*cked. I thought this M$ DRM was a choice of convenience but it appears that Tivo is cozying up with Microsoft bigtime. From Tivo's website:


"Now that millions of consumers are enjoying the TiVo service in their living rooms, we found that many of them had a desire to take that entertainment experience with them. By rallying other industry leaders around this opportunity, we can bring consumers that extended TiVo experience to a broad range of devices in a quick and powerful way," said Matt Wisk, chief marketing officer, TiVo.

Microsoft Chairman and Founder Bill Gates announced during his keynote address tonight at the Consumer Electronics Show that the two companies have embarked on a collaborative effort designed to allow consumers to take digital entertainment with them on portable devices.

Gates demonstrated how television programs stored on a TiVo® box can be transferred to a Windows XP PC for playback on Windows Mobile devices, including Portable Media Centers, and media-capable Pocket PCs and Smart phones.

"TiVoToGo is going to be an important element in our efforts to help consumers get content from the TiVo box to a growing number of Windows Mobile-based devices that make portable digital entertainment a reality," said Todd Warren, Corporate VP of Microsoft's Devices, Services and Experience Division.

http://www.tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=233

So, its a partnership so they can get Tivo on M$ based handhelds? I guess Apple missed the boat. Now I'm seriously considering getting rid of my one and only Tivo. Apple and Microsoft are at war over the media market. I can't see M$ playing nice with Apple on this one.

[MassNerder]

Here ya go mac guys. Fire up virtual PC, download the shows you want via it. Use TMPEnc to covert it to standard MPEG, put file on mac, use as you want. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's just that simple.

It's a bit of a pain, but it works. And it'll hold you over until Tivo makes a mac client.

There is a thread on converting the .tivo file to MPEg with the Tsunami Encoder, but I dont have the link handy. do a search.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by MassNerder
Here ya go mac guys. Fire up virtual PC, download the shows you want via it. Use TMPEnc to covert it to standard MPEG, put file on mac, use as you want. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's just that simple.

It's a bit of a pain, but it works. And it'll hold you over until Tivo makes a mac client.

There is a thread on converting the .tivo file to MPEg with the Tsunami Encoder, but I dont have the link handy. do a search.

Thanks,
I'll give that a try.

[Morris Herman]

Originally posted by MassNerder
Here ya go mac guys. Fire up virtual PC, download the shows you want via it. Use TMPEnc to covert it to standard MPEG, put file on mac, use as you want. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's just that simple.

It's a bit of a pain, but it works. And it'll hold you over until Tivo makes a mac client.

There is a thread on converting the .tivo file to MPEg with the Tsunami Encoder, but I dont have the link handy. do a search.

Have you tried this on a Mac or you are just pointing to a possible solution?

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Originally posted by jpd
But the video files will still use the Microsoft DRM, won't they? That seems to be the real sticking point.

Others have posted that the new TiVo Desktop includes a DirectShow filter. It's probably that filter that's handling the DRM. In other words, although MS technology is involved (DirectShow) it's not actually MS DRM, it's TiVo DRM, assuming I'm interpreting the situation correctly. I'd also expect that if it were MS DRM, it'd be packaged as .wmv or one of the other MS formats, not a custom .tivo format.

That would mean that TiVo could implement this in QuickTime just as well (specifically writing a movie import component to parse the .tivo file format and a data handler to handle decryption.)

Remember, I'm speculating here -- haven't seen the code.

[tonyf3]

I can't imagine Apple missing the boat on this despite Steve's views on Video hand helds. I'll reserve
the big guns untill after Macworld.

[zingboy]

I think the timing of the T2G release and Macworld are suspiciously related (not forgetting about CES). It could easily be a marketing thing, releasing the Windows version first to get the attention of that community, then using the biggest mac conference to get all the Mac users on-board.

Of course, we've seen this kind of thing dry up at previous Macworlds, but this looks to be a big one.

My uninformed prediction is a Macworld where we see better Tivo/Mac integration released, probably having something to do with iLife 05 or Keynote(who knows, it could replace iDVD).

[roaster]

Has anyone tried Elgato's Eyetv 200. Just stumbled on it but was waiting for the other shoe to drop on T2GO. I'd be curious to find out if it could be networked wireless. Not inexpensive but may offer a workaround.

[tonyf3]

Macworld is this coming Monday Jan 10.

[MassNerder]

Originally posted by Morris Herman
Have you tried this on a Mac or you are just pointing to a possible solution?

No. My powerbook is in the shop right now. however, I couldnt possibly see why it wouldnt work. Give it a shot....whats the worst that could happen :)

I'll give it a shot next week once I have to give this crappy loaner WinXP laptop back. ;)

[tonyf3]

Hey did anyone read David Pogue's article in the NY Times today. Nice review, except he has forgotten
his Mac roots. His follow up piece should be on how TiVo hasn't been very forth coming about it's Mac development. Or lack of it so far. To be fair he has to appear neutral and write for the masses, but
comon' Dave. Takem' to task a little would ya. I listened to the web conference from the CEO.
Not much worth listening to.

[Unix_Beard]

Has anyone heard the word Tivo muttered at any Macworld keynote? I never have and don't expect to at this Macworld. the only thing that would cause Jobs to mutter Tivo is announcing the acquisition. Tivo has no impact on Mac sales. Tivo has no impact on iPod sales. Tivo is inconsequential to Apple.

[Unix_Beard]

Originally posted by MassNerder
No. My powerbook is in the shop right now. however, I couldnt possibly see why it wouldnt work. Give it a shot....whats the worst that could happen :)

I'll give it a shot next week once I have to give this crappy loaner WinXP laptop back. ;)

If the .tivo file is DRMed, why would a 3rd party package let you circumvent the DRM so easily?

[blips]

Originally posted by Unix_Beard
Has anyone heard the word Tivo muttered at any Macworld keynote? I never have and don't expect to at this Macworld. the only thing that would cause Jobs to mutter Tivo is announcing the acquisition. Tivo has no impact on Mac sales. Tivo has no impact on iPod sales. Tivo is inconsequential to Apple.

That is the exact thought I had reading this thread and I don't think he will be announcing any acquisition.

[tonyf3]

Oh yeah, that's why they made the ipod Photo with a color screen. You don't think someone said to themselves at Apple. Music, Photos....uh Video. Come on! No Apple's not going to mutter TiVo at Macworld. However they can't afford to ignore what MS and TiVo announced today. Can you say SONY, as in they used to own the personal music player market with Walkman. I bet they have something comparable in the works. Not to would be foolish.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by Unix_Beard
I find it hard to believe that Jobs would say anything about Tivo at Macworld. Tivo is inconsequential to Apple - the only news worthy of Macworld would be Apple acquiring Tivo.

Now, I wouldn't bet against Apple assuming the market completely with a new gadget.


Hey,
What happened you've changed your tune on this. Inconsequential sounds like an Apple employee
with knowledge of something better but can't talk about it for fear of being fired.

[idrivecode3]

Originally posted by cwoody222
Apple stores almost selling TiVo's? I've never heard that rumor ANYWHERE. I don't believe it.

Apple w/ their own DVR? I've heard that rumor a million times and I still don't believe it. I'd LOVE it if it were true, but I just don't see it happening.

I sure hope I'm wrong, though. (and maybe, just maybe, the sub-$500 headless iMac is the answer)

Former Apple retailer myself...we had them then were told not to sell them. "Headless iMac" maybe this is what we are waiting for!!!!

[SJN]

I downloaded a 30 minute program using the web access described in other threads in this forum (https://tivoipaddress), copied it into Virtual PC, then tried to open the file using TMPGEnc.exe. It told me I didn't have an MPEG-2 codec installed (which makes sense). All of the codecs recommended by TiVo are $15 apiece, with no trial period. I'm not wild about buying a codec until I know if it will work; anyone know of one that has a free trial that I can try?

[Eoghann]

Originally posted by SavMan
Agreed. Absolutely unacceptable. Mac users make up a sizable number of TiVo users, and for them to forsake us like this is simply abhorrent.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[Morris Herman]

Originally posted by MassNerder
No. My powerbook is in the shop right now. however, I couldnt possibly see why it wouldnt work. Give it a shot....whats the worst that could happen :)

I'll give it a shot next week once I have to give this crappy loaner WinXP laptop back. ;)

Well I gave a shot but missed the barn door. I started VPC and downloaded Desktop 2.0, installed it and entered the Media Access Key with the playback passwords.

When I start Tivo Desktop, it is running but it says that there are no TiVo recordings on Administrator's Now Playing list.

Remember, that the Mac that is running VPC has access to the Tivo. I tried to to STOP the Mac Desktop so that it would not interfere but no joy. I turn the Mac Tivo Desktop on and I see on the Tivo my pictures and music from iTunes and iPhoto.

I downloaded Windows Media 10 also successfully.

Any ideas?

[SJN]

Originally posted by Morris Herman
Well I gave a shot but missed the barn door. I started VPC and downloaded Desktop 2.0, installed it and entered the Media Access Key with the playback passwords.

When I start Tivo Desktop, it is running but it says that there are no TiVo recordings on Administrator's Now Playing list.

Remember, that the Mac that is running VPC has access to the Tivo. I tried to to STOP the Mac Desktop so that it would not interfere but no joy. I turn the Mac Tivo Desktop on and I see on the Tivo my pictures and music from iTunes and iPhoto.

I downloaded Windows Media 10 also successfully.

Any ideas? As near as I can tell, the Administrator's Now Playing list is a list of programs that you've already downloaded. There's a big button at the top that says "Pick Recordings to Transfer." If you have your network set up right, this should connect to your TiVo.

[MassNerder]

Originally posted by Morris Herman
Well I gave a shot but missed the barn door. I started VPC and downloaded Desktop 2.0, installed it and entered the Media Access Key with the playback passwords.

When I start Tivo Desktop, it is running but it says that there are no TiVo recordings on Administrator's Now Playing list.

Remember, that the Mac that is running VPC has access to the Tivo. I tried to to STOP the Mac Desktop so that it would not interfere but no joy. I turn the Mac Tivo Desktop on and I see on the Tivo my pictures and music from iTunes and iPhoto.

I downloaded Windows Media 10 also successfully.

Any ideas?

Does it see the tivo? Or does it act like it doesnt see it at all. I'm wondering if the VPC doesnt act as a DHCP server and assign a 'intranet' ip address to the virtual PC. Because the tivo app just looks on the local subnet for a tivo..... so it might not be seeing the tivo because it thinks it is on a different subnet......compare IP addresses in Windows versus your mac.

You should look into how virtual PC is configured and if you can make the networking work in 'network address translation mode' or some such thing. I'm now dying to play with this and see if i can get it to work.

Check this out and see if it helps: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/825372

If the .tivo file is DRMed, why would a 3rd party package let you circumvent the DRM so easily?

Because that's the use of the software. It's function is to covert formats ;)The fact that the media is DRMed doesnt really enter into it. To be legal this software is really just coverting formats. As long as it will ask you what your password for the DRMed material, the maker of the software is in the clear legally (i'd think), since it's reasonable to conclude that knowing the password to a drmed file is ownership. I mean, that not might always be the case, but it wouldnt surprise me that a company could legally make that asumption.


That would mean that TiVo could implement this in QuickTime just as well (specifically writing a movie import component to parse the .tivo file format and a data handler to handle decryption.)

Sure, why not? I'd be willing to guess the encoding is taking place on the computer, so instead of the stream file on the tivo, just crank it out into Quicktime. There really wouldnt even be a need for Windows Media or the format on the mac. The file format on the tivo is not the same format you get on your OC.


I cant find the quote, but someone also asked about a codec for the encoder....VLC should be able to play Mpeg2 files, that would work. Or you could download a trial version of some software (the software will be unuseable after the trial period, but the codec will still work). Powerdvd used to come with a free trial and would do mpeg2...cant recall if they make a mac version....

-----------
*Actual accuracy of statements may vary.

[Morris Herman]

Originally posted by SJN
As near as I can tell, the Administrator's Now Playing list is a list of programs that you've already downloaded. There's a big button at the top that says "Pick Recordings to Transfer." If you have your network set up right, this should connect to your TiVo.

Thanks for your suggestion. When I select "Pick recordings to Transfer", it says there are no TiVo DVRs available on the network.

Now the big question is how do I set up the network?

Obviously, I have connectivity through my wireless network in order to be able to download TiVo Desktop and Windows media 10 successfully with the Windows XP running on VPC on my Mac.

Where is the missing link?

[Unix_Beard]

Morris Herman - I'm in the same boat. I have a Powerbook. I installed VirtualPC with XP. I downloaded Tivo Desktop and it gives me the same message as you - it can't see the Tivo. I dug a little deeper into XP and found that Virtual PC gives the Windows side an IP address in the form of 192.168.131.xxx. Since it assigns this particular range of addresses to the VPC side, it can't see anything on my internal network. It sees the Internet just fine.

Apparently, VPC has two types of network setups - "Virtual Switch" and "Shared Network" or something. The "Shared is set by default, and thats what gives the 192.168.131.xxx number to the VPC side. The "Virtual Switch" is what you want, I believe. I used that it the XP side got a different IP than the Mac side and on the network. Now, it has the proper IP but the network doesn't work at all - inside or outside.

At this point, I said screw it. :) Windows is bad enough but at crawling speed its infuriating...

I did copy some shows down via the web interface on a Mac and copied them into VPC/Tivo Desktop where I was able to view them. I'm really only interested in burning DVDs so I guess I'll just wait for those who are smarter than me figure this out.

[Morris Herman]

Originally posted by MassNerder
Does it see the tivo? Or does it act like it doesnt see it at all. I'm wondering if the VPC doesnt act as a DHCP server and assign a 'intranet' ip address to the virtual PC. Because the tivo app just looks on the local subnet for a tivo..... so it might not be seeing the tivo because it thinks it is on a different subnet......compare IP addresses in Windows versus your mac.

You should look into how virtual PC is configured and if you can make the networking work in 'network address translation mode' or some such thing. I'm now dying to play with this and see if i can get it to work.

Check this out and see if it helps: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/825372

I had Network Sharing selected in the VPC Network Settings but I changed it to Virtual Switch and in spite of the warning that it will not work with a wireless network, IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!

I see the Now Playing list from my Tivo. I started the transfer of one of my recordings and it says that it will take about 1 Hr 10 min.

Transfer now in progress!!!!

TiVo To Go is going!!!!!!

[Morris Herman]

The PLAY button is active, along with the Stop Transfer button so while the transfer is occurring I clicked it. It asked me for my playback password but then said that Windows Media 10 cannot play the file because it was missing the MPEG-2 video decoder.

I clicked on Web Help and was routed to a web site called wmplugnns.com where the codec was available for $20. Before I buy this, is this what I need before I can play the tivo file?

[Morris Herman]

I proceeded to select the InterVideo codec which I bought for $14.95. I installed it but when I play a recording I downloaded from the Tivo, all I get is sound no video.

Windows media 10 thinks it is an audio file with the corrrect title and date of of the recording.

What now? Is the problem the VPC running on the Mac?

[SavMan]

Originally posted by Eoghann
re: abhorrent-
I do not think that word means what you think it means.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=abhorrent

How so, sir? :confused:

(I do appreciate the Princess Bride reference, however) :up:

[Morris Herman]

OK I won't give up but I installed Desktop 2.0 on my Windows XP laptop from work. It is also networked and it picked up my Now Playing list from my Tivo. I then installed the same codec from InterVideo on that laptop, transfered a recording from the Tivo but when I went to play it with Windows media 8, the WiMP (sic) froze on me and I could not do anything to restart the machine.

The joys of Windoze!!

[Morris Herman]

I finally got the machine to restart but it will not play the Tivo recording with the following message:

"You are not authorized to play this recording. It was transfered using a different media access key than the one in your Windows account.

For help see the application you used to transfer the TiVo recording from your Tivo DVR."

I even went back in the Tivo Desktop and set the Media Access Key and playback password same as before but no success.

Tried converting the Tivo file with TMPGEnc but encountered the same authorization problem.

I almost give up!

[tonyf3]

Morris,
How about VLC on the Mac side after download. Haven't tried it. Still waiting for 7.1

[MassNerder]

Originally posted by Morris Herman
I proceeded to select the InterVideo codec which I bought for $14.95. I installed it but when I play a recording I downloaded from the Tivo, all I get is sound no video.

Windows media 10 thinks it is an audio file with the corrrect title and date of of the recording.

What now? Is the problem the VPC running on the Mac?

You shouldnt have to *BUY* the codec. there should be free trials (powerdvd). Download the good old "VLC Viewer" and use that to play it. I havent see anything that program cant play.

[Unix_Beard]

Originally posted by Morris Herman
OK I won't give up but I installed Desktop 2.0 on my Windows XP laptop from work. It is also networked and it picked up my Now Playing list from my Tivo. I then installed the same codec from InterVideo on that laptop, transfered a recording from the Tivo but when I went to play it with Windows media 8, the WiMP (sic) froze on me and I could not do anything to restart the machine.

The joys of Windoze!!

:) Now you know why I gave up. I'll just keep hoping for the iMovie/iDVD friendly version.

[Unix_Beard]

Originally posted by tonyf3
Morris,
How about VLC on the Mac side after download. Haven't tried it. Still waiting for 7.1

vlc on MacOS X will NOT play the .tivo file. It has garbled sound and a solid green screen for me. vlc on Windows is able to snag that playback filter that T2G relies on. No such beast on the Mac.

As far as I can tell, there is no conceivable way to view these on a Mac without Virtual PC. Even then, its a challenge.

[Bierboy]

I just tried opening a TiVo transferred file with VLC (on my PC) and it's a blank screen. Am I doing something wrong? I just downloaded VLC, installed it and launched it. I navigated to a TiVo file, then opened it, but, while the little timer indicates something is playing, there's no video or audio.

[2324070933]

I am having the same trouble, all i get is a grey screen and no audio, but something is playing...

[Unix_Beard]

If vlc didn't ask for the password, its not decrypted. Do you have the newest version of vlc? I don't know if it works or not. That product TMPGEnc did ask for the password and opened the file for me so I assumed vlc would work the same way on Windows.

[2324070933]

Yes, I downloaded v.8.1 this morning for the XP. It did not ask for a password. I thought I saw that VLC was one of the preferred options on the tivo site to watch the .tivo files. Is this correct?

[Unix_Beard]

Originally posted by 2324070933
Yes, I downloaded v.8.1 this morning for the XP. It did not ask for a password. I thought I saw that VLC was one of the preferred options on the tivo site to watch the .tivo files. Is this correct?

FWIW, I believe it said Windows 2000 users should use vlc.

[2324070933]

Foiled!!!

I just tried to use the TMPgenc and when i select the .tivo file and hit start i get a prompt that say Can't load "P3Package.dll" Can you help with that?

[Morris Herman]

Originally posted by Unix_Beard
vlc on MacOS X will NOT play the .tivo file. It has garbled sound and a solid green screen for me. vlc on Windows is able to snag that playback filter that T2G relies on. No such beast on the Mac.

As far as I can tell, there is no conceivable way to view these on a Mac without Virtual PC. Even then, its a challenge.

I just downloaded the Windows VLC on the Mac running VPC but when I tried to play the Tivo file, all I got was a black screen. VLC does not seem to be the solution.

[Bierboy]

Originally posted by Morris Herman
I just downloaded the Windows VLC on the Mac running VPC but when I tried to play the Tivo file, all I got was a black screen. VLC does not seem to be the solution. Amen....I have the latest version of VLC for the PC (haven't tried for Mac), and, as I posted above, it does not work.

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally posted by Morris Herman
OK I won't give up but I installed Desktop 2.0 on my Windows XP laptop from work. It is also networked and it picked up my Now Playing list from my Tivo. I then installed the same codec from InterVideo on that laptop, transfered a recording from the Tivo but when I went to play it with Windows media 8, the WiMP (sic) froze on me and I could not do anything to restart the machine.

The joys of Windoze!!

guess mac users never have to read instructions ;)
for windows XP - only Windows Media Player 10 will work. Media player 9 seems to work with .tivo files on Windows 2000. Windows media player 8 will not owrk with .tivo files at all.

there is DRM here people, not just an mpeg video. You need to have the right version to deal with the DRM adn filters it entails.

[Eoghann]

Originally posted by SavMan
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=abhorrent

How so, sir? :confused:

(I do appreciate the Princess Bride reference, however) :up:

Well in the context you're using it, it can't mean "strongly opposed" agreed?

That leaves disgusting, loathsome or repellent. Not of which make any logical sense when applied to a simple business decision. Picking your nose is disgusting. Killing people is loathesome, farting is repellent. Deciding to offer software to PC users prior to offering it to Mac users... thats just numbers.

You seem to be trying to imply that Tivo had some emotional motive in their decision making. That their decision is somehow a snub to Apple or to their users. In fact not just a snub but an outright backstab. Neither makes any logical sense.

Now if you'd used the words disapointing, unfortunate, regretable, annoying, irritating, any of those I could have agreed with. But abhorrent? No its either a deliberate missuse of the word or a failure to understand its meaning.

[Stuckeyboss]

Well, I am going to have to turn to some of you OS X gurus out there.

Using the web interface recently discovered on some of the other threads around here, I was able to pull the .tivo files off of the TiVo.

Using MPlayer for OSX - http://mplayerosx.sourceforge.net/

I can get the file to play in a really messed up fashion.

Then a coworker turned me onto TiVo-MPlayer - which is supposed to play the TiVo stream.

http://tivo-mplayer.sourceforge.net/

I am still in the process of grabbing fink, and some of the other tools described in OS X install procedure. I thought it might be beneficial to get others experimenting as well.

So - if anyone has any luck - please post to the thread.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by Stuckeyboss
Well, I am going to have to turn to some of you OS X gurus out there.

Using the web interface recently discovered on some of the other threads around here, I was able to pull the .tivo files off of the TiVo.

Using MPlayer for OSX - http://mplayerosx.sourceforge.net/

I can get the file to play in a really messed up fashion.

Then a coworker turned me onto TiVo-MPlayer - which is supposed to play the TiVo stream.

http://tivo-mplayer.sourceforge.net/

I am still in the process of grabbing fink, and some of the other tools described in OS X install procedure. I thought it might be beneficial to get others experimenting as well.

So - if anyone has any luck - please post to the thread.


Thanks Stuckey,
This sounds promising. Fink and the other tools discribed in the OSX install for which app?
I'm still waiting for the 7.x download. Anyone know rough percentage of users who have received the update. Mine still says 4.0.1b.

[SavMan]

Eoghann
:rolleyes:
From the link I posted:

abhorrent

adj : offensive to the mind; "an abhorrent deed"; "the obscene massacre at Wounded Knee"; "morally repugnant customs"; "repulsive behavior"; "the most repulsive character in recent novels" [syn: detestable, obscene, repugnant, repulsive.

I find it "offensive to the mind" and "repulsive" that TiVo would snub a large and vocal portion of their user base. It does not require emotion on the behalf of TiVo to forsake 15% of the user base -- just the arrogant assumption that we don't matter. I abhor such thinking, it's just bad business. You assert that my claim that I have been "back-stabbed" is laughable, yet I have, for two-and-a-half years, supported TiVo through paying my service fees, buying a second box, referring 3 friends, and being a general apologist and evangelist to a brand I thought really "got it." For a company I have believed in to indicate that every TiVo user would have TTG free, then release it well after schedule without support for a large contingent of their customers makes me upset. It repulses me. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of their customer base. IT IS ABHORRENT to me.

You may claim that I'm being overly dramatic -- and that's a fair cop, guv. But you are either plain ignorant or being deliberately obtuse if you are seriously trying to argue that I used the adjective "abhorrent" improperly.

<On Topic> Now let us return to the matter at hand: What hopes do we have of getting MSFT's proprietary DirectShow filter ported to the Mac? Since all reports point to this being the ONLY reason why we don't have TiVoToGo, and TiVo evidently couldn't get Microsoft to play fair, are we SOL here? Are we going to have to hope for some hacker to break the DMCA for us so we can simply share in the same services our Windows brethren enjoy?

I know TiVoBill is quite restricted in his abilities to give us information, but a simple "there will be a version for Macintosh within x months, the programmers/lawyers/officers/Microsoft stooges assure us," would pacify most of us. I think the majority of we Mac users are most put off by the completely noncommittal nature of TiVo's response. TiVo is well known on these boards to fleece consumers in order to squeeze more money out of them (i.e. HUMAX boxes, HMO, etc.) so they've lost a lot of credibility that would allow us to take for granted that "working hard" doesn't mean "never gonna happen, but we don't want a mass exodus of customers, so we'll stretch the truth."

I'm not entirely sure that I trust TiVo to support my choice of platform, so it'd be nice to have some sort of disclosure. I paid a premium for TiVo over any of the other DVRs, but it's not worth it if I'm locked out of all the new features that make it cost more. I hope this is just a PR gaffe, and not a sign that TiVo has turned their back on Mac users for good.

[Stuckeyboss]

Originally posted by tonyf3
Thanks Stuckey,
This sounds promising. Fink and the other tools discribed in the OSX install for which app?
I'm still waiting for the 7.x download. Anyone know rough percentage of users who have received the update. Mine still says 4.0.1b.

For Tivo-MPlayer - sorry about that, I should have been more clear.

[Diamondh]

Save yourself the headaches! Watch for "IHOME" at MACWORLD, sorry Tivo but you're about to be left in the dust!! Way to go Apple!!!
see website engadget.com/entry/1234000110026534/

[Unix_Beard]

Looks to be a fraud to me. "Centre?" And the box it comes in looks too amateurish to be an Apple job.

[Unix_Beard]

I tried the Tivo-mplayer. You need X11 and there a MacOS X binary on that referenced page. Its command line. The video opens nicely and the bottom half is scrambled and there is no sound. Here is the output:

[Basement:/sw] admin% mplayer ~/Desktop/Austin\ City\ Limits.TiVo
MPlayer 1.0pre6-3.3 (C) 2000-2004 MPlayer Team
AltiVec found
CPU: PowerPC
Creating config file: /Users/admin/.mplayer/config

Playing /Users/admin/Desktop/Austin City Limits.TiVo.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
Encrypted VOB file! Read DOCS/HTML/en/dvd.html.
(...and this line continues until you stop the process...)

Oh well.

[SavMan]

Diamondh:

Dude, seriously. Wise up. That's an obvious fake. The easiest way to tell that is that Apple holds no patent for such a name. Other ways to tell it's fakery: incorrect typeface selection, poor typography, amateurish packaging doesn't conform with Apple products, British spelling of "Media Center," optical drive slot way too large, inelegant 300-pt "iHome" screened on top of product, lack of any appropriate ports for a media center device, et cetera. You can read an in-depth debunking of the hoax... in that very link you posted! Scroll down and read the comments!

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by Diamondh
Save yourself the headaches! Watch for "IHOME" at MACWORLD, sorry Tivo but you're about to be left in the dust!! Way to go Apple!!!
see website engadget.com/entry/1234000110026534/


I hope it's not a fake. iHome software was slated for the Tiger release 10.4
I read something about TiVo now licenseing a lite version of it's OS to the Cable companies set top boxes to get exposure. Then upgradable to full for the $12.95. So, if Apple will let HP make ipod clones, and if the above is true then why wouldn't TiVo let Apple run the same on an Apple branded DVR that integrates with it's ihome software. Let Apple worry about satisfying our needs. TiVo delays
the Mac release so they won't steal any thunder from Jobs on Monday. Or we get our solution from Apple. That would make sense since they've said absolutley NOTHING! on WHY!, and WHEN!. They probably figured they could stay mum for a couple of days. Then when Steve does his show everyone will forget all about it.

[SavMan]

Originally posted by tonyf3
I hope it's not a fake. iHome software was slated for the Tiger release 10.4
I read something about TiVo now licenseing a lite version of it's OS to the Cable companies set top boxes to get exposure. Then upgradable to full for the $12.95. So, if Apple will let HP make ipod clones, and if the above is true then why wouldn't TiVo let Apple run the same on an Apple branded DVR that integrates with it's ihome software. Let Apple worry about satisfying our needs. TiVo delays
the Mac release so they won't steal any thunder from Jobs on Monday. Or we get our solution from Apple. That would make sense since they've said absolutley NOTHING! on WHY!, and WHEN!. They probably figured they could stay mum for a couple of days. Then when Steve does his show everyone will forget all about it.

So many things wrong here, where to start...

"iHome Software" -- No such software has been announced or even hinted at by Apple, especially for Tiger. Also, that name is a registered trademark of iHome, LLC of Snoqualmie, WA.

"TiVo lite" -- I don't know where you got this information, the only TiVo lite I know of is with the DVD Recorder boxes made by Sony, Pioneer, and Humax. Seeing as every major cable or satellite company already has their own PVRs, I see no reason for them to switch all their existing users to a version of TiVo, at the risk of losing their own customers.

"HP iPods" -- These are not clones. They are manufactured by Apple and sold to HP. Apple merely laser-etches the HP logo on the back. Otherwise, straight-up Apple iPods.

"iHome box" -- an obvious fake! Maybe the headless iMac coming out is, in fact, a functional DVR. However, these are not photos of an Apple project, just a large hoax.

[tonyf3]

I also somehow got the impression that TiVo togo would lessen the hacking for video extraction.
If a Mac version isn't forthcoming then I bet it will continue with renewed zeal.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by SavMan
So many things wrong here, where to start...

"iHome Software" -- No such software has been announced or even hinted at by Apple, especially for Tiger. Also, that name is a registered trademark of iHome, LLC of Snoqualmie, WA.

"TiVo lite" -- I don't know where you got this information, the only TiVo lite I know of is with the DVD Recorder boxes made by Sony, Pioneer, and Humax. Seeing as every major cable or satellite company already has their own PVRs, I see no reason for them to switch all their existing users to a version of TiVo, at the risk of losing their own customers.

"HP iPods" -- These are not clones. They are manufactured by Apple and sold to HP. Apple merely laser-etches the HP logo on the back. Otherwise, straight-up Apple iPods.

"iHome box" -- an obvious fake! Maybe the headless iMac coming out is, in fact, a functional DVR. However, these are not photos of an Apple project, just a large hoax.


Yeah,
Looks like a fake.
Yeah, digital home or "whatever" was supposed to be in 10.3 but wasn't ready.
Yeah, HP doesn't make clones. Sorry "throw back to the dark times"
and Yeah most cable company interfaces Suck, so why re-invent the wheel. Be smart co-opt what works. Never heard anyone complain about an upgrade that wasn't better than what they were using before. Just the software not the box.

There,...happy now.

[SavMan]

Originally posted by tonyf3

Yeah, digital home or "whatever" was supposed to be in 10.3 but wasn't ready.
Yeah, HP doesn't make clones. Sorry "throw back to the dark times"
and Yeah most cable company interfaces Suck, so why re-invent the wheel. Be smart co-opt what works. Never heard anyone complain about an upgrade that wasn't better than what they were using before. Just the software not the box.

There,...happy now.

I'm going to try to be less confrontational about this, sorry if I came off like a jackass:

"iHome/digital home/whatever" -- I think what you are referring to is the ability to sync your entire Home folder onto the HD in an iPod. The idea was, when you came home from work, etc, you'd plug in your iPod. It would sync everything in your Home folder, and you'd be able to use any mac as if it were your home computer. Also functions as a great backup. This is a great, GREAT idea, and if they ever follow through it will be a boon to sales. However, it has nothing to do with TiVo or DVRs. I could see the confusion, though.

"HP" -- The prototype they unveiled when they announced the partnership was blue, but it was so ugly, they decided against it. Cut costs, too. It's funny, the TiVo iPod (from TiVo Rewards) is basically the same thing as an HP iPod, but with a TiVo logo instead.

"Cable Companies" -- I agree that the existing PVRs suck, I cut my teeth on the Time Warner DVR from Scientific Atlanta (damned thing actually crashed once a day) but realize that there is no advantage for a cable company to pay TiVo to use their software. They've already "reinvented the wheel," the cable box is built and the software several versions revised. If they upgraded to a standalone, the cable company is out on the $10 a month you were paying them before. Meanwhile, TiVo has no desire to lose their only stream of revenue (subscriptions) by licensing their OS to cable companies. Finally, TiVos will eventually have CableCards, which will allow them to work on any digital cable system, completely replacing the Motorola or Scientific Atlanta box your cable company charges you $5 a month for (on top of the actual service. Check your bill sometime, they charge for rental of the box AND the remotes, at least in Minneapolis). This means the day of reckoning for inferior PVRs is coming... makes licensing deals seem pointless, really.

[tonyf3]

Points taken, thanks for focusing my post.
The TiVo eventually having CableCards sounds interesting.

[SJN]

I'm a dedicated Mac user, eagerly awaiting Mac support for TiVo to go. Having said that, I think it's premature to be getting too worked up about the current lack of such support. Although TiVo to go's been hinted at, and even promised, for the better part of a year, it was just formally announced this week. Most TiVo users don't even have the 7.1 upgrade yet, which makes a desktop client irrelevant. Let's at least wait until after next week's MacWorld, and until most, if not all, subscribers have the 7.1 upgrade before we start sharpening our pitchforks and lighting torches. Given Bill Gate's demonstrated enthusiasm for T2Go at CES, I'm sure there will be pressure at MacWorld for Apple to ante up.

[SavMan]

Originally posted by SJN
I'm a dedicated Mac user, eagerly awaiting Mac support for TiVo to go. Having said that, I think it's premature to be getting too worked up about the current lack of such support. Although TiVo to go's been hinted at, and even promised, for the better part of a year, it was just formally announced this week. Most TiVo users don't even have the 7.1 upgrade yet, which makes a desktop client irrelevant. Let's at least wait until after next week's MacWorld, and until most, if not all, subscribers have the 7.1 upgrade before we start sharpening our pitchforks and lighting torches. Given Bill Gate's demonstrated enthusiasm for T2Go at CES, I'm sure there will be pressure at MacWorld for Apple to ante up.

Problem is, Apple has nothing to do with the equation.

<This is all based on educated guesswork aggregated from dozens of people in this community>

All signs point to the problem being DirectShow. The file itself is nothing but a MPEG-2, so if it were raw, Quicktime or VLC for Mac would have no problem reading it. However, it is shrouded with this DirectShow, a proprietary Microsoft DRM scheme. Bill Gates has good reason to be enthusiastic, he has just managed to lock out all Mac users from using TivoToGo.

Knowing now that TiVo has committed itself to dealing with effing Microsoft to create DRM has left me with little-to-no hope of EVER getting TivoToGo, especially since TiVo has given no sign that we will ever get it (Sorry, "working hard" doesn't mean anything). Gates has stopped all development on Internet Explorer and Media Player for Mac, bought up the only viable PC emulator, and got Bungie to sell out and port a Mac-first game to Xbox and hold out on our version for two years. The only support from Microsoft we get is for Office, and that's because Mac users are quite a bit more profitable than Windows users for that program (per capita). What's to stop Gates from holding out for a year or two so he can tout that only Windows machines have the capabilities to interface with TiVoToGo? It's the guy's modus operandi.

Besides, if a Mac client was ready for distribution on Monday (MacWorld), that would mean it's already been beta-tested and has been ready for gold master since before CES. Even if we go to when most users get 7.1 (by all indications, 1-2 months from now) TiVo would still have a date for when the mac client would come out. They told us when Sonic's software is coming out, but they can't tell us when their own damned software is coming out! Not good. All indicators point to a complete lack of any development here.

So really, with the knowledge that TTG uses Microsoft's proprietary and Windows-exclusive DRM scheme, and devoid of any assurances from TiVo that a client is in store for us, what hope do we have of ever seeing TiVoToGo? I hope that I'm wrong, but TiVo has been quite noncommittal about this issue, and that doesn't bode well.

[tonyf3]

Damn Microsoft, (insert Charton Heston tirade from Planet of the Apes here)
Woz, feel like writing some code?

[tonyf3]

Nice article on As the Apple Turns site regarding this subject.
http://www.appleturns.com/scene/?id=5119

[tonyf3]

Apple insider article on Apple Home Appliance. Older article but timeline leads up to now.
Macworld Starts tomorrow.
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=362

[jmemmott]

---------------------------------------------------------------------
All signs point to the problem being DirectShow. The file itself is nothing but a MPEG-2, so if it were raw, Quicktime or VLC for Mac would have no problem reading it. However, it is shrouded with this DirectShow, a proprietary Microsoft DRM scheme. Bill Gates has good reason to be enthusiastic, he has just managed to lock out all Mac users from using TivoToGo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

As has been pointed out in other threads in this forum, there is absolutely no reason to believe that any type of Microsoft DRM has been used with the .tivo files. Instead, the encryption involved appears to be a Tivo propriatary algorythm that they have used with ALL Series 2 Tivo boxes since they were first released. DirectShow filters are simply the accepted method of adding special processing to video and audio streams for Media Players such as WMP in a modular fashion in the Windows environment. Something similar needs to be provided on the Mac side but the burden is on Tivo to do so because they are the ONLY one that know the decryption algorythm.

[tonyf3]

Something similar needs to be provided on the Mac side but the burden is on Tivo to do so because they are the ONLY one that know the decryption algorythm.

A timeline, approximated guess, 1st quarter 2005, 2nd?, 3rd? 4th, Jan 2006?
I'm just amazed that TiVo has nothing to say except were working on it.

[tonyf3]

http://www.macworldexpo.com/live/20/

Jobs Keynote Tuesday 9am San Francisco

[stevestarr]

Apple makes some great products, BUT what you have to remember is that typically a company will provide for the masses first, and then work out the kinks for the smaller demographic. Apple is a great platform, but unfortunately, no matter who you are or what you say, there are way more PC's in this world then Mac's and thats the bottom line. I was an apple technician for 5 years, and they are great to work on, but the bottom bottom line is that any smart company is going to provide for their higher volume customer first, and all the Mac people also need to understand that maybe it wouldn't be Satanic to have a cheap PC lying around the house. Im sure downloading software would be way more fun! :) Im sure im going to piss some people off with this post but thats ok, the Apple Cult will always be an Apple Cult, and I will donate my kidney to science if any Apple Computer ever arises better sales then the PC platform.

[Unix_Beard]

stevestarr - Your point has been made countless times in the thread. Everyone is aware of this. The issue is Tivo did release the original Tivo Desktop simultaneously with Windows.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by stevestarr
Apple makes some great products, BUT what you have to remember is that typically a company will provide for the masses first, and then work out the kinks for the smaller demographic. Apple is a great platform, but unfortunately, no matter who you are or what you say, there are way more PC's in this world then Mac's and thats the bottom line. I was an apple technician for 5 years, and they are great to work on, but the bottom bottom line is that any smart company is going to provide for their higher volume customer first, and all the Mac people also need to understand that maybe it wouldn't be Satanic to have a cheap PC lying around the house. Im sure downloading software would be way more fun! :) Im sure im going to piss some people off with this post but thats ok, the Apple Cult will always be an Apple Cult, and I will donate my kidney to science if any Apple Computer ever arises better sales then the PC platform.


No problem Steve,
I think most Mac users get it. I have a Dell, next to my G4 that's next to my SGI box at work. They each serve their purposes. My preference is Mac as a Graphic Designer of course. I've got 6 at home. I think TiVo's cult is similar to the Mac cult. I guess it more that the Mac was supported right off the bat with TiVo desktop. It was integrated tightly with OSX iphoto & itunes and it worked better than the PC version. Now...they're giving the Mac user a back seat. Mac users get it, they just don't like it. I guess we made the mistake of looking at TiVo they way we looked at Apple.

[cwoody222]

I've spent the better part of tonight waiting for WinXP to install on my Mac to no avail. I installed an old version of VirtualPC 5.0.4 I had laying around. I then tried to install WinXP. 5 HOURS later it was on 18% of "copying files to the installation directory". It had been on 18% for 2+ hours. Obviously something was wrong so I stopped the install. I feel better not having Windows on my Mac anyway.

I know my Mac is slow (500MHz iMac) but WinXP has been on it before. I initially had Win98 installed and upgraded to XP. I don't remember how long it took for 98 to install but it wasn't this long. And the upgrade to XP certainly wasn't this slow.

So... since I'm in no mood to try that again... what's the latest prognosis of at least GETTING the .tivo file onto my iMac (via the 'hidden' web browser) without any Windows software? That's all I am trying to do at this point (since TiVo doesn't think Mac users are good enough to deserve actual file viewing).

[Unix_Beard]

You can get the .tivo file on the Mac no problem using the web interface and clicking "Download" next to the program. I copied 2 shows so far in hopes I'll be able to do something with them later. At this point, they are just scrambed and of no use.

[cwoody222]

Fwew! Thanks! :)

Now... if they'd only get to that "priority" list. It's only been 7 days and they've yet to touch it... but I digress...

[SavMan]

Not true, I got my update last night. I signed up for the list at 6am CST on the day of the announcement.

[SavMan]

Not that it does me any damned good. I've downloaded a show from the web server, but it's useless to me.

[cwoody222]

You may have been one of the small number of randomly chosen people to get it.

I signed up around 6-7am EST the day of the annoucement... and nothing yet.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by cwoody222
You may have been one of the small number of randomly chosen people to get it.

I signed up around 6-7am EST the day of the annoucement... and nothing yet.

I signed up same day, still nothing yet. Forced a connection twice. Hard restart once.
I'm cooling my heels until after Tuesday. If nothing satisfying comes out of Macworld, then I'm
unloading big time.
:mad:

[Peter000]

Originally posted by stevestarr
Apple makes some great products, BUT what you have to remember is that typically a company will provide for the masses first, and then work out the kinks for the smaller demographic. Apple is a great platform, but unfortunately, no matter who you are or what you say, there are way more PC's in this world then Mac's and thats the bottom line. I was an apple technician for 5 years, and they are great to work on, but the bottom bottom line is that any smart company is going to provide for their higher volume customer first, and all the Mac people also need to understand that maybe it wouldn't be Satanic to have a cheap PC lying around the house. Im sure downloading software would be way more fun! :) Im sure im going to piss some people off with this post but thats ok, the Apple Cult will always be an Apple Cult, and I will donate my kidney to science if any Apple Computer ever arises better sales then the PC platform. Y'know, you bring a whole new light to the great Mac/PC Controversy. I DID NOT KNOW there are more PC's than Macs in the world! AMAZING! And you say a PC is a good tool to have around the house too?? I'm running out to buy a PC TOMORROW! Oh, wait. Yeah, I have 5 of them already.

Geez.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by Peter000
Y'know, you bring a whole new light to the great Mac/PC Controversy. I DID NOT KNOW there are more PC's than Macs in the world! AMAZING! And you say a PC is a good tool to have around the house too?? I'm running out to buy a PC TOMORROW! Oh, wait. Yeah, I have 5 of them already.

Geez.


Well if they're all windoze, my condolences.
Swap out at least 2 for mac's and find out what all the fuss is about.

[tonyf3]

I wonder if they know which subscribers are Mac users. If so,are they not rolling out to us as quickly because they know there's not much we can do with TiVo togo at this point.

[SavMan]

Originally posted by cwoody222
You may have been one of the small number of randomly chosen people to get it.

I signed up around 6-7am EST the day of the annoucement... and nothing yet.

I doubt it. I have two TiVos, and had I been a customer randomly chosen, both of them should have received the update. So far, the TiVo whose service number I didn't enter is still at the old software.

Sounds like you signed up at nearly the same time I did, so I probably got on there slightly before you. Although, has TiVoBill ever told us if it's first-come/first-serve for this list? Maybe it's random off the list too, for sampling purposes. Either way, someone smarter than me, please figure out how to decode these files!

[cwoody222]

Originally posted by SavMan
I doubt it. I have two TiVos, and had I been a customer randomly chosen, both of them should have received the update.

Nope. They picked random service numbers, not names. It's very possible (likely, even) that if you were randomly selected only 1 of your TiVo's would get it.

I'm pretty sure by last week they hadn't even started the priority list yet and TiVoBill said that they weren't sending the new software to anyone over the weekend.

I really think you just got lucky.

[SJN]

Originally posted by cwoody222
Nope. They picked random service numbers, not names. It's very possible (likely, even) that if you were randomly selected only 1 of your TiVo's would get it.
That's what happened to me; I got the update on my primary TiVo last week, but haven't seen it on the secondary unit. Which is fine with me; it's enough for me to fiddle with it, and see how it works.

[nealm]

I feel like I have to jump in here. I am an apple user for decades (going back to the Apple IIe that I took to college in 1987).

I LONG AGO accepted the delays inherent in being way in the minority compared to the universe of computer users. I think it's a little crazy to be so upset at tivo for catering to the 96% before tackling the 4% of mac users. (even granting some of the estimates I've seen thrown out here, at best it's 85/15).

I want TiVo to survive and, to do so, they made the right business decision to throw available resource at the vast majority of their users. If I am ever THAT upset at being snubbed as a mac user, I need to buy one of the numerous sub $500 PCs out there in order to have a lifeline to the windows world.

I am content for the time being to continue to think different and see how mac support shakes out. It doesn't change the fact that TiVo rules.

[griff76]

Originally posted by tonyf3
Something similar needs to be provided on the Mac side but the burden is on Tivo to do so because they are the ONLY one that know the decryption algorythm.

A timeline, approximated guess, 1st quarter 2005, 2nd?, 3rd? 4th, Jan 2006?
I'm just amazed that TiVo has nothing to say except were working on it.


I disagree it's totally up to TiVo to get this working. Someone in the MacCommunity can get this working. Since VLC handles the .Tivo files fine on the windows end, and they have nothing to do with TiVo, then someone just has to modify (or make a codec?) to work on the Mac and one of it's programs.

Hopefully now that it's out there, some knowledge Mac developer will pop something out.

[Morris Herman]

Originally posted by ZeoTiVo
guess mac users never have to read instructions ;)
for windows XP - only Windows Media Player 10 will work. Media player 9 seems to work with .tivo files on Windows 2000. Windows media player 8 will not owrk with .tivo files at all.

there is DRM here people, not just an mpeg video. You need to have the right version to deal with the DRM adn filters it entails.

I thank you for your help although it would have been nicer had it not been delivered with an insult to the Mac users.

Do you PC people realize that you owe much to Apple and the Mac people in terms of pushing the envelope on creativity and innovation? If Microsoft was out there alone without Apple, you would not have many of the new OS features that you enjoy now. But this is not news to you, right?

I have just downloaded WMP 10 but I get the same unauthorized access message after I enter the password. I have decided to transfer the Tivo recording again with the Tivo Desktop and then to play it with WMP 10.

It works!!! ...well sort of.. the picture does skip occasionally and the lips are not in sync (WMP is not QuickTime) with the audio but this is way better than nothing.

Now back to the Mac to replicate the process.

[mdscott]

Originally posted by Morris Herman
It works!!! ...well sort of.. the picture does skip occasionally and the lips are not in sync (WMP is not QuickTime) with the audio but this is way better than nothing.

Now back to the Mac to replicate the process.

Does this mean you have found a WMP 10 that works natively on the Mac or is this under an emulator such as VPC?

mds

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Originally posted by Morris Herman
I thank you for your help although it would have been nicer had it not been delivered with an insult to the Mac users.

To be fair, Zeo did include a smiley -- you could have ended his statement with "...because Mac software is easy enough to use without them." ;)

[Morris Herman]

Originally posted by mdscott
Does this mean you have found a WMP 10 that works natively on the Mac or is this under an emulator such as VPC?

mds

I am sorry if I did not make it clear. I was able to play Tivo files on my PC laptop and verified that the Intervideo DVD Xpack codec will work with WMP 10.

Trying the same thing on the Mac running VPC, Windows XP and using WMP 10 with the same codec does not work. Only audio is heard; no video.

I have sent a message to Intervideo asking if their codec will work on a Mac running VPC, Windows XP and WMP 10.

I will relay the answer which most likely will be in the negative because that is not a standard software test configuration for PC software. But nothing ventured, nothing gained, right?

P.S. to Zeo: OK, I will take your Mac comment with a smile(y) now.

[Graymalkin]

This answers a question in the back of my mind. I guess VPC isn't going to cut it. Ah, well.

BTW, I decided to pay a bit more for Intervideo's DVD Player 6 Platinum, since the XPack install wanted to uninstall the DVD Player 4's codec, and I didn't want to risk losing the ability to play DVDs on the laptop.

[idrivecode3]

Originally posted by cwoody222
what's the latest prognosis of at least GETTING the .tivo file onto my iMac (via the 'hidden' web browser) without any Windows software?

Did I miss the thread about this? How do you get to the "Hidden" browser?

[SJN]

Originally posted by idrivecode3
Did I miss the thread about this? How do you get to the "Hidden" browser?
It's in this thread. (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215838)

[tonyf3]

Thanks Danimal4326

The tivo now runs a web server.
http://<your tivo ip> it will display a nice web page telling you that you've set up your TiVo on the network properly.


Tivo Web interface ( thanks Marc )

https://<tivo ip>/nowplaying/index.html

using user: tivo
pass: <MAK>

[tonyf3]

Anyone have any news out of Macworld yet?

[cwoody222]

Check out this cool article about extracting HD video from a Motorola cable box and then scheduling recordings via iCal!

http://macteens.com/more.php?id=410_0_1_0_C

[tonyf3]

Fyi: Jobs Keynote at Macworld is not being streamed.

[nealm]

Mac Mini! That is cool!

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050111/sftu074_1.html

[Unix_Beard]

Nothing Tivo related (as has been suggested) but some amazing new products.

[jalex]

Actually, I'd say there is some small TiVo-related news out of MacWorld. The newly announced iMovie HD (part of the new iLife '05 package) now supports MPEG-4 video in addition to DV and HDV. We still need to wait on TiVo or Microsoft to do something about the decryption filter for the Mac, but at least we know that iMovie should be able to pass TiVo's MPEG-4 video on to iDVD to burn it to disc.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Originally posted by jalex
...but at least we know that iMovie should be able to pass TiVo's MPEG-4 video on to iDVD to burn it to disc.

Except that the TiVo's video is MPEG-2.

MPEG-2 decompression has been available for QuickTime in the form of a $19.95 codec download from the Apple Store for quite a while now.

[tonyf3]

Ok TiVo, no news from Macworld. It's all you. TIMELINE!

[mattman]

I think that many of us *wanted* TiVo news from MacWorld, but I know that I didn't feel it was likely to happen, especially since most of the rumors about the keynote were true. We *may* have to wait for iLife 05's release, or we may be waiting for Tiger, or we may just be waiting for TiVo to finish their own software. I'm willing to wait, but I would like a reasonable time period.

Matt

[stevestarr]

Originally posted by Unix_Beard
stevestarr - Your point has been made countless times in the thread. Everyone is aware of this. The issue is Tivo did release the original Tivo Desktop simultaneously with Windows.

I understand that, what I am trying to communicate is to stop the whining :)

[jpd]

Originally posted by mattman
or we may just be waiting for TiVo to finish their own software. I'm willing to wait, but I would like a reasonable time period.

It just occurred to me that we may not have to wait as long as some of us fear. TiVo runs a version of linux on a PowerPC processor, correct? If so, creating a Mac version of the TiVo software should be pretty easy, they could conceivable just recompile the decryption software that actually runs on the TiVo unit for BSD/Darwin. Of course they would want to give us a nice, proper Mac interface, but that's not too difficult either. I'm beginning to wonder if the PC version came out first because they knew they would need to devote far more resources and man hours to get that accomplished while they could pop out a Mac version quickly with only a small delay.

It might even be worth trying to download the TiVo source code and see if has the decryption libraries and if they can be recompiled on one's own. If only I had the time, and the TiVo update.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by mattman
I think that many of us *wanted* TiVo news from MacWorld, but I know that I didn't feel it was likely to happen, especially since most of the rumors about the keynote were true. We *may* have to wait for iLife 05's release, or we may be waiting for Tiger, or we may just be waiting for TiVo to finish their own software. I'm willing to wait, but I would like a reasonable time period.

Matt

Mattman,
You're right, all we really want to know is how long a wait. That's all.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by jpd
It just occurred to me that we may not have to wait as long as some of us fear. TiVo runs a version of linux on a PowerPC processor, correct? If so, creating a Mac version of the TiVo software should be pretty easy, they could conceivable just recompile the decryption software that actually runs on the TiVo unit for BSD/Darwin. Of course they would want to give us a nice, proper Mac interface, but that's not too difficult either. I'm beginning to wonder if the PC version came out first because they knew they would need to devote far more resources and man hours to get that accomplished while they could pop out a Mac version quickly with only a small delay.

It might even be worth trying to download the TiVo source code and see if has the decryption libraries and if they can be recompiled on one's own. If only I had the time, and the TiVo update.



Sounds good to me.
Shoulda stuck it out with those programing classes. (*Graphic Artist)
Then again, I don't know how far I would have gotten with Basic & Pascal on an Apple II

[jalex]

Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson
Except that the TiVo's video is MPEG-2.

You know, I looked back and forth several times at this before posting and just didn't pick it up. I think perhaps my brain just wanted to see "MPEG-2" in there. Oh well, guess we'll still have to run a conversion to do the editing.

[Sethb]

I agree, I was content to wait for a MacWorld announcement before commencing serious bitching, but since we got nothing, I now feel free in griping. I'm going to upgrade one of my TiVos shortly, and knowing the timeline makes the difference between getting a 140 hour Series 2 or a Humax burner model. If Mac software is coming along in a couple of months, I'll get the 140. If "forthcoming" means "we're saying this so you don't burn down TiVo headquarters, but really we've got only one shoddy intern working on the project" then I'm just going to opt for the Humax burner and be done with it.

This is exactly the kind of info that a TiVo Community bulletin board is for, and exactly the kind of information loyal customers expect and deserve from a company they respect. I don't need a hard ship date, but something like "We've got a team developing software in house, shooting for a second quarter 2005 release" doesn't seem like much to ask, nor does being kept in the loop on development process until such time. There's no reason for TiVo to be abstract about this, it's not giving away a corporate secret, it's not giving their competitors an edge, it's treating their current customers with respect.

I've purchased FIVE TiVos, THREE lifetime subscriptions myself over the last four years. That's a couple thousand dollars I've put in their coffers, and have referred over a dozen TiVo purchases as well. I think they owe me this one.

[SJN]

I still have some hope in MacWorld; it runs all week, and even though Steve Jobs himself did not bring word down from the Mount, there's a lot going on. Perhaps some enterprising reporter will pry word from a developer, or embarrassing Apple into reconsidering development by asking what their plans are to counter Microsoft's demo at CES.

[cwoody222]

Keep dreamin'...

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by Sethb
I agree, I was content to wait for a MacWorld announcement before commencing serious bitching, but since we got nothing, I now feel free in griping. I'm going to upgrade one of my TiVos shortly, and knowing the timeline makes the difference between getting a 140 hour Series 2 or a Humax burner model. If Mac software is coming along in a couple of months, I'll get the 140. If "forthcoming" means "we're saying this so you don't burn down TiVo headquarters, but really we've got only one shoddy intern working on the project" then I'm just going to opt for the Humax burner and be done with it.

This is exactly the kind of info that a TiVo Community bulletin board is for, and exactly the kind of information loyal customers expect and deserve from a company they respect. I don't need a hard ship date, but something like "We've got a team developing software in house, shooting for a second quarter 2005 release" doesn't seem like much to ask, nor does being kept in the loop on development process until such time. There's no reason for TiVo to be abstract about this, it's not giving away a corporate secret, it's not giving their competitors an edge, it's treating their current customers with respect.

I've purchased FIVE TiVos, THREE lifetime subscriptions myself over the last four years. That's a couple thousand dollars I've put in their coffers, and have referred over a dozen TiVo purchases as well. I think they owe me this one.

Seth,
My sentiments exactly

[tonyf3]

I'd like to see some Polls:

1. How long are you wiiling to wait on a Mac TiVo togo solution before exploring other options.
30 days, 60 days, 90 days, other

2. When do you think we'll actually see a Mac solution for TiVo togo.
30 days, 60 days, 90 days, other

3. How important is it that TiVo togo for Mac integrate with existing Mac applications such as idvd, imovie, quicktime. Instead of other third party apps.
Very important, Some what important, Not really, Don't care.


This would be nice to have with clickable radio Buttons, but I think only the moderators can make those. Anyway, they need to hear from the Mac community loud and clear.

[cwoody222]

Anyone can make a poll. Click "new thread" and then the final step asks you if you'd like to create a poll. You may have to do 3 seperate ones.

[tonyf3]

Thanks cwoody222. I'll set that thread up next. I still don't get the fact that Tivo has said basically nothing on the subject of Mac support, as to why and when.

[mdscott]

Why (just my own opinion): ration of Mac to Windows users in the TiVo installed base.

sighs and sadness

mds

[amgqmp1]

It's still beyond me that the TiVo Desktop 2.0 software isn't done in a cross-platform dev. environment (Java 2 anyone)...

...maybe the Mac mini will take off...but until then, Macs are only in a significant number of households for TiVo customers. They may only be 5% of the computing market but I'm sure they're 30% of the TiVo customer market.

Personally, I don't care...my newest Mac is a 6100/60 ;)

[Unix_Beard]

I should have bought a ReplayTV. I thought Tivo would be more conducive to developing for the Mac. I believe you can get video off of a ReplayTV fairly easily and then burn a DVD or whatever. Luckily I didn't get a lifetime subscription.

If a Mac version was close, there would have been a less vague statement. I don't think a Mac version is imminent. I hope I'm wrong.

[tonyf3]

2 Poll threads on this are set up. Vote if you haven't.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=217805

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=217807&highlight=mac

[tonyf3]

Check this out as an alternative to TiVo togo.

http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC55/pm_advc55.asp

RCA to Firewire, into Final Cut or imovie. idvd to burn.

No Windows DRM.

[dropd]

Originally posted by Sethb
it's not giving away a corporate secret, it's not giving their competitors an edge, it's treating their current customers with respect.


Amen. This has been said by so many people on these boards (including myself) in the last 3 months, it's almost ridiculous.

It hurts watching TiVo inflict so much damage on itself right before our eyes. They're not simply losing market- and mind- share to their competitors. Rather, the company's recent behavior is actually unnecessarily hastening those losses! It's confusing and depressing.

[sad05]

After 15 years of loyal Mac usage I shouldn't be surprised that *ONCE AGAIN* we've been given the programming shaft, but I am pretty disappointed.

When I found out about Tivo2Go, I ran right out and bought a USB adapter and crossover cable. I got home, pulled up the web page and there is was - Windows only.
You've got to be kidding!

I had been toying with the alternate method of getting stuff off the Tivo:
connect video camcorder and use as a bridge to the Mac, burn from Mac
But then I heard about the Tivo2Go and that sounded so much better!

How much longer will I wait for Tivo2Go? I don't know ... They don't give us any expected date ... Do they need beta testers? I'm right here! What do you need?!

I've got MST3K movies that need saving!

No wonder the EyeTV booth was so packed at MacWorld. Seems like a pretty decent device ...

[mattman]

You know, I have recently looked at EyeTV as well, the main problem is that it doesn't do well with proprietary cable systems, which mine (GCI in Anchorage, AK) is. It doesn't have any kind of IR blaster, and serial control seems to be right out, so I'd be stuck with basic channels, and a great deal of my tv watching is the digital only channels. The other problem would be devoting a computer to this process, and I just don't have one available at this time. My only reasonable hope for this kind of stuff right now is TTG, because I've done the video camcoreder thing, and it's WAY too time consuming.

Matt

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by sad05
After 15 years of loyal Mac usage I shouldn't be surprised that *ONCE AGAIN* we've been given the programming shaft, but I am pretty disappointed.

When I found out about Tivo2Go, I ran right out and bought a USB adapter and crossover cable. I got home, pulled up the web page and there is was - Windows only.
You've got to be kidding!

I had been toying with the alternate method of getting stuff off the Tivo:
connect video camcorder and use as a bridge to the Mac, burn from Mac
But then I heard about the Tivo2Go and that sounded so much better!

How much longer will I wait for Tivo2Go? I don't know ... They don't give us any expected date ... Do they need beta testers? I'm right here! What do you need?!

I've got MST3K movies that need saving!

No wonder the EyeTV booth was so packed at MacWorld. Seems like a pretty decent device ...

I agree, and still we wait. Pretty sad indeed.

[tonyf3]

I keeping coming across a few posts here and there about " Hey aren't you used to waiting for Mac stuff" and "Don't you know what the Mac share of the market is, it's just business sense for them"

Yes, and Yes, I do.
However, when a company is as vague as we're working on it, and the last time they said that was 18 months ago on AAC support. I believe they need to be tweaked, goaded, pushed, pulled or whatever into making good on what they promise to their PAYING SUBSCRIBERS!

[tonyf3]

Anytime now. Oh wait,.. I was dreaming.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by mattman
You know, I have recently looked at EyeTV as well, the main problem is that it doesn't do well with proprietary cable systems, which mine (GCI in Anchorage, AK) is. It doesn't have any kind of IR blaster, and serial control seems to be right out, so I'd be stuck with basic channels, and a great deal of my tv watching is the digital only channels. The other problem would be devoting a computer to this process, and I just don't have one available at this time. My only reasonable hope for this kind of stuff right now is TTG, because I've done the video camcoreder thing, and it's WAY too time consuming.

Matt

Eye TV is an interesting option, I just prefer to watch on my TV 90% of the time. Copying to my
Laptop, is 10%.

[tonyf3]

Yep, 2 weeks today Tivo togo was released. How's it comin' guys? The Mac Desktop 2.0 that is.
etc. etc.

[bedelman]

Originally posted by tonyf3
... and the last time they said that was 18 months ago on AAC support. I believe the reference to AAC support only appeared in a very short mention on a Mac news web site. As far as I can recall, TiVo never stated that they were working on AAC support where there is a direct statement from them.

[themacjedi]

Originally posted by bedelman
I believe the reference to AAC support only appeared in a very short mention on a Mac news web site. As far as I can recall, TiVo never stated that they were working on AAC support where there is a direct statement from them.

Just do a search on TiVo's website, it gives you the impression.

We are working on supporting the AAC music format, but do not have a current definitive timeline of when it will be available for our TiVo Series2 subscribers.

http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv1161.htm?

[bedelman]

OK -- I thought the reference might have been this one...

http://www.macminute.com/2003/05/28/tivo
TiVo working on AAC support for Home Media Option
May 28, 2003 - 13:42 EDT TiVo is working on a new version of the Mac OS X software for its Home Media Option that will let users stream AAC music files to their TiVo Digital Video Recorder (DVR), in addition to the already supported MP3 format. "We are working with Apple on a solution to support the AAC file format while also honoring the rights of copyright holders," a TiVo spokesperson told MacMinute. Last month, the company launched the Home Media Option, which lets users automatically stream music and photos from their Mac (via iTunes and iPhoto) to a TiVo Series2 DVR for listening/viewing on a TV. However, Apple has since released iTunes 4, which brought support for AAC files -- now the preferred music format for many users. As we previously reported, TiVos are also now being sold in Apple retail stores nationwide.

[tonyf3]

Thanks Bob! It seems they've chosen Microsofts DRM over Apples DRM

[Tequila69]

I know this is probably not the place to post this -- but since Im a MAC user and there doesnt seem to be many of us ( in TIVOland or elsewhere I'll try ... I'm having a rookie wireless setup issue, Im trying to use my Airport (snow) w/ a Netgear Ma111 - D-link cable router. I get though it all fine and it recognizes the network/ gives it an IP - but says it doesnt see DHCP server? What gives ? my powerbooks work just fine with the Airport/- Any Mac users please help -thanks

[tonyf3]

I have a similar setup. Do you have TiVo desktop 1.8 installed? Which device is serving up the DHCP
the Airport or the Netgear. It should be only one. I have the Airport doing the DHCP and it's turned off on my Linksys. You want to bridge the network, otherwise the Netgear is doing it's own thing and you
can't get back to the desktops.

[tonyf3]

http://www.divx.com/divx/

Anybody tried this to covert the files ?

[tonyf3]

Maybe we'll see something with with Tiger release in a couple of months. Jobs listed over 200 new features but was only able to go into a handful at the keynote in San Francisco.

[SavMan]

I hate to be the downer here, but this has nothing to do with Apple. Quicktime is about as open as it can be, so this is either some first-class lack of effort on TiVo's side, or the fact that TiVo partnered with Microsoft means we may never see this on our platform.

So far, all we know is that there is no Mac version, there is no date (even approximated) for us to hope for a Mac version, and the only version out there at all REQUIRES Windows' proprietary DirectShow filters to decrypt the .tivo file, and that Bill Gates himself has remarked on the great partnership he has made with TiVo to provide such DRMs. Doesn't look good, and I'm personally guaranteeing that no operating system upgrade is going to fix TiVo's foot-dragging on this.

It's going to be TiVo that has to fix this. On the other hand, don't you think that if TiVo was actually planning on releasing a Mac version, TiVoBill would be in here telling me I'm wrong? He's been on the lists for people bitching about the Priority List every day, yet he's been pretty silent over on this side. I'm not going to say at this juncture that there will definitely never be a Mac version, but it sure looks like TiVo's trying to pull the wool over our eyes on this one.

[timg]

I agree completely. The lack of comment from TivoBill on the Mac issue should speak for itself. Also, the way that the FAQ is worded ("working on ways of enabling playback on the Mac") don't give me much hope.

If there truly was something in the works, they would have a tentative release date or timeframe, much like the "Fall 2004" they announced last year for TivoToGo. More likely, Tivo "sold out" to Microsoft's DRM and we will never see a Mac version ...

[fishert]

Is it possible the delay is due in part to the release of iLife 'O5? I am a devoted Macphile and also a TiVo zealot. I wouldn't trade either in for the world. Certainly I'm bummed about the wait, but from the sound of the windoze users complaints here TTG has not been such a grand feature. I'm more dissappointed on the AAC issue. I've finally given up and just bought a Monster mini to LR audio cable and will play my music through the aux audio ports on the front of my home theater from my iPod. I still love being able to view the photos using HMO over my wireless network and I use MRV to send shows between the bedroom and living room on a regular basis. I'm willing to wait on TTG, and expect something will happen within the coming months. Patience....Patience....

[TiVoBill]

Originally posted by timg
I agree completely. The lack of comment from TivoBill on the Mac issue should speak for itself. Also, the way that the FAQ is worded ("working on ways of enabling playback on the Mac") don't give me much hope.

If there truly was something in the works, they would have a tentative release date or timeframe, much like the "Fall 2004" they announced last year for TivoToGo. More likely, Tivo "sold out" to Microsoft's DRM and we will never see a Mac version ...

You are reading too much into the fact that I haven't said anything. :) I havn't said anything because there is nothing new to say -- we ARE working on support for using the TiVoToGo feature on the Mac platform in the future. Because that development is ongoing, and a release date has not been scheduled at this time, I can't say any more.

[timg]

Originally posted by TiVoBill
You are reading too much into the fact that I haven't said anything. :) I havn't said anything because there is nothing new to say -- we ARE working on support for using the TiVoToGo feature on the Mac platform in the future. Because that development is ongoing, and a release date has not been scheduled at this time, I can't say any more.

If you are "working on support ... on the Mac platform", why is there no schedule for release? Not even a tentative schedule. Are we going to see this release in 2005? 2006? 2007?

Until Tivo commits to a date (even if it's only tentative), TivoToGo for Mac is nothing but Vaporware. Tivo would not be the first company to say they are working a version of their product for the Mac and never deliver that product.

Bottom line for me is, if TivoToGo for Mac was a priority for Tivo, there would be a release schedule.

[SJN]

It seems like this forum is full of posts where TiVo is being flamed for announcing a new product before they were fully ready to commit to a firm roll-out date. At the same time, Mac users in this thread are flaming TiVo for not announcing a release date that is tenuous at best, and a wild guess at worst. As vocal as their user group has been about the way T2Go was delayed, can anyone really be surprised that TiVo learned their lesson? I would be surprised if we heard a peep from them until they were well into beta testing; for that matter, maybe not until they have 2.0 for Mac on the servers and ready to download.

[cwoody222]

Well over a year ago they announced they were "working on" bringing AAC support to HMO.

So, while I thank Bill for commenting here, "working on it... for the future" gives me little hope indeed. Add the Microsoft DRM stuff and my hope reaches zero. :(

[futerfas]

Originally posted by TiVoBill
You are reading too much into the fact that I haven't said anything. :) I havn't said anything because there is nothing new to say -- we ARE working on support for using the TiVoToGo feature on the Mac platform in the future. Because that development is ongoing, and a release date has not been scheduled at this time, I can't say any more. Originally posted by cwoody222
Well over a year ago they announced they were "working on" bringing AAC support to HMO.

So, while I thank Bill for commenting here, "working on it... for the future" gives me little hope indeed. Add the Microsoft DRM stuff and my hope reaches zero. :( They both bring up good points, I don't know what to think. Could they both be right?? :confused:

[timg]

Of course they can both be right. I don't doubt that Tivo is working on Mac support for TivoToGo, and probably even still working on AAC support (who knows?). What I have concerns with is whether they will ever finish...

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by TiVoBill
You are reading too much into the fact that I haven't said anything. :) I havn't said anything because there is nothing new to say -- we ARE working on support for using the TiVoToGo feature on the Mac platform in the future. Because that development is ongoing, and a release date has not been scheduled at this time, I can't say any more.


I'd like to thank TiVo Bill for commenting in this thread.
A few things that could have helped Mac users leading up to the roll out of TiVo togo.
TiVo announced T2GO last January. Huge anticipation followed. Some sort of addendum could have stated that the initial release would be for Windows only, and that the Mac version would follow in the first half of 2005. We'd have allot less to be disappointed about.
Fall, 2004 becomes Jan, 3 2005. and surprise in your Mac users stocking is a lump of coal. Why did I even bother paying attention to this release. Call me when it's done for Mac. It'll probably be better than the windows version just like before.

[TiVoBill]

Apple made the decision last year (after our notation that we were working with them) to not allow any application besides iTunes to play back music files purchased from the Apple Music Store. They have released several patch versions of the iTunes software this past year specifically to disable third-party applications and hardware devices that attempted to play protected music files. Any questions about that policy should be directed to Apple since they have applied that policy evenly toward everyone as far as I know. If you buy music from the Apple Music Store (as I do), you agree to play by their rules in how you listen to that music, which means only playing it using iTunes or on a iPod. It is certainly possible that we will support unencrypted AAC files at some point, but I don't know of any plans to do that at this time since the format is not all that popular outside of iTunes world. A third party person/company could also develop a plug-in for TiVo Desktop to play unencrypted AAC files (as they have done with WMA) but there doesn't seem to be much interest in that area.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Originally posted by cwoody222
Add the Microsoft DRM stuff and my hope reaches zero. :(

What Microsoft DRM stuff? Everything that I've seen posted about this indicates that the Windows TiVo Desktop 2.0 installs a DirectShow filter, and from all appearances this filter is what decodes the DRM. That'd be unnecessary if TiVo were using Microsoft's DRM. You wouldn't do it as a DirectShow filter on the Mac side, obviously, but doing the same thing is possible under QuickTime. The actual encryption happens on the TiVo itself, which to me also implies that this isn't a Microsoft implementation. I'll admit I could be wrong, but based on what I've read here, I really don't think that the DRM is Microsoft's, it just happens to be implemented on Windows. I have no idea if anyone from TiVo could or would verify this.

I don't see this as being along the same lines as AAC. The biggest reason to handle AAC would be to handle purchases from the iTunes Music Store, which means decoding FairPlay, and which requires Apple to share, which, except for the announced-but-not-yet-available Motorola phone, it hasn't. Yes, yes, I know that you can rip unprotected AAC in iTunes (and that that is the default in new installs of iTunes,) but I personally don't see ripping things as MP3s as really being a very big compromise. Disclaimer: personally, I had most of my music collection ripped into iTunes as MP3 prior to support for AAC being added to begin with, so you can take that with however many grains of salt as you'd like. We know that as Mac users we're a smaller subset of TiVo users; I suspect that unencrypted-AAC-only Mac users are a yet smaller set.

In other words, "working on AAC" really means "waiting for Apple to allow us to decode FairPlay, and "working on TiVoToGo for Mac" really (most likely) means "we're working on it ourselves." That's a pretty significant difference, assuming I'm interpreting the situation correctly.

TiVo never claimed that this would be ready for the Mac on day one; in fact, they stated a number of times that they expected it wouldn't be. Any expectations people had here were likely due to TiVo saying similar things before the HMO release and still having day one Mac support, combined with the demo of a Mac version earlier. It wasn't ever promised, though.

Edit: and that's what I get for writing a long post while watching a TiVo'd show -- TiVoBill beats me to the punch! Well, at least my suspicions about AAC were confirmed... :)

[TiVoBill]

Originally posted by tonyf3
I'd like to thank TiVo Bill for commenting in this thread.
A few things that could have helped Mac users leading up to the roll out of TiVo togo.
TiVo announced T2GO last January. Huge anticipation followed. Some sort of addendum could have stated that the initial release would be for Windows only, and that the Mac version would follow in the first half of 2005. We'd have allot less to be disappointed about.
Fall, 2004 becomes Jan, 3 2005. and surprise in your Mac users stocking is a lump of coal. Why did I even bother paying attention to this release. Call me when it's done for Mac. It'll probably be better than the windows version just like before.

I think there are a few misconceptions going on here. As far as I know, TiVo never announced that TiVoToGo would be available at launch for the Mac platform (or the Windows platform for that matter). Versions of TiVoToGo were developed for the Windows and Mac platforms in parallel. It just so happens that the TiVo Desktop for Windows was completed in time for launch and the Mac version was not. We continue to work on it. It wasn't known until the very end if there would be a Mac version at launch time or not so there wasn't any time for communication about something that we never announced in the first place. I understand your disappointment though -- I have a iBook that I would love to be able to use TiVoToGo on, but I have to be patient for now. All other discussion is just speculation and really is unnecessary at this point.

[mattman]

Thanks again for the update and letting us know what you can Bill. I would like for it to be released as soon as possible, but I understand how things work.

Here's hoping for TiVoToGo on the Mac soon!

Matt

[timg]

Bill,

If what you state is true, then why no release date? What's the hold up?

I am sure all of the Mac people here appreciate your updates and efforts, but it is really frustrating to be left hanging with just a "we're working on it" ...

[TiVoBill]

Originally posted by timg
Bill,

If what you state is true, then why no release date? What's the hold up?


I don't know.. I work in Customer Support, not Engineering. :) All I know is, it's not ready, and won't be released until it is. If you would like to join the TiVo engineering staff, they always have openings (and far more to do than time to do it).

[timg]

Well, I am an engineer so maybe I will look into the openings. As an engineer though, I've never seen a project without a schedule ...

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by TiVoBill
I think there are a few misconceptions going on here. As far as I know, TiVo never announced that TiVoToGo would be available at launch for the Mac platform (or the Windows platform for that matter). Versions of TiVoToGo were developed for the Windows and Mac platforms in parallel. It just so happens that the TiVo Desktop for Windows was completed in time for launch and the Mac version was not. We continue to work on it. It wasn't known until the very end if there would be a Mac version at launch time or not so there wasn't any time for communication about something that we never announced in the first place. I understand your disappointment though -- I have a iBook that I would love to be able to use TiVoToGo on, but I have to be patient for now. All other discussion is just speculation and really is unnecessary at this point.

Points taken Bill, thank you.
I guess it was the that it's development was sounding more like the AAC thing.
Working on it's release at some point. Also if TiVo is working with Apple I imagine the are
several NDA's that were signed about releasing info about products in development. So, that would make sense on the lack of info.

[cwoody222]

Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson
What Microsoft DRM stuff? Everything that I've seen posted about this indicates that the Windows TiVo Desktop 2.0 installs a DirectShow filter, and from all appearances this filter is what decodes the DRM. That'd be unnecessary if TiVo were using Microsoft's DRM. You wouldn't do it as a DirectShow filter on the Mac side, obviously, but doing the same thing is possible under QuickTime. [/i]

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said "Microsoft DRM" I should said "Windows DRM". It's a mistake I've made before too.

My point is - they used a DRM that works with Windows in a way that they cannot replicate on a Mac. Surely there was a cross-platform solution they could have done instead.

Why would they have chosen to force themselves to create two seperate methods?


That said... TiVoBill's comments here DO finally give me hope. This FINALLY makes it sound like a Mac version is being worked on and has been being worked on for some time (ie: they didn't just start once the Windows version was out the door).

Their timeframe is still a mystery and it took them FOREVER for the Windows version so I'm still not going to get too excited too soon but I have some hope now.

(although I reserve the right to take that all back once we start hitting the 6-8mo mark ;) )


The AAC stuff is a shame on Apple's side. It's also a shame this is the first time someone from TiVo has commented as such. I still think surely there'd be a way to stream this music somehow (didn't Real do it?). Plus, this really isn't a "Mac user" thing - this affects everyone - and it's the most popular digital music store out there.

[dropd]

Originally posted by TiVoBill
I think there are a few misconceptions going on here. As far as I know, TiVo never announced that TiVoToGo would be available at launch for the Mac platform

Correct, TiVo never did. But at CES 2004, when T2G was introduced, it was demoed to conference-goers on both windows and mac, with *wink wink* implications much posted about on this board that mac support was a done deal.

Something changed between then and now, obviously. We're all just disappointed with that change.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Originally posted by cwoody222
My point is - they used a DRM that works with Windows in a way that they cannot replicate on a Mac. Surely there was a cross-platform solution they could have done instead.

Why would they have chosen to force themselves to create two seperate methods?

I wouldn't go so far as to say the methods are completely separate. I'd guess that probably 80% of the logic would be cross-platform, and much of the DirectShow-specific stuff (or QuickTime-specific stuff on the Mac side) would simply be glue to make all the functions land in the right place and affect the right data.

They could have been completely cross-platform with a QuickTime implementation, or by writing their own player from the ground up, including codecs and the like. The former would have worked, but may or may not have played nicely with the DVD burning apps, and for a consumer-type application isn't really the way to do things (I like sticking with the tools that ship with the system as much as possible for consumer apps). The latter would also have worked, but would have been a much larger effort, incurred MPEG2 licensing fees, and still not have gotten them anywhere with the DVD apps unless they rolled their own there, too.

The AAC stuff is a shame on Apple's side. It's also a shame this is the first time someone from TiVo has commented as such. I still think surely there'd be a way to stream this music somehow (didn't Real do it?). Plus, this really isn't a "Mac user" thing - this affects everyone - and it's the most popular digital music store out there.

Real did it, Apple broke it, and I don't know if Real has re-patched their stuff, if Apple has re-broken it, etc. (See Also Hymn.)

I agree, and I've submitted feedback to Apple as such. I can see not licensing to direct competitors to the iPod, at least understanding where Apple makes it's money, but why they wouldn't license to other folks like Roku and TiVo for specific applications like this doesn't make sense to me. You don't have to license to everyone the same way.

That said, I see a very, very faint glimmer of home in this so-called Motorola "iPhone", which will be, as far as I know, the only non-Apple product sanctioned by Apple to play ITMS content. But we'll see.

[cwoody222]

Originally posted by dropd
Correct, TiVo never did. But at CES 2004, when T2G was introduced, it was demoed to conference-goers on both windows and mac, with *wink wink* implications much posted about on this board that mac support was a done deal.

Something changed between then and now, obviously. We're all just disappointed with that change.

The dongle?

Could that be the reason? When they were going to use the dongle it was probably just a USB thing - easy to be cross platform.

But when they discarded that idea the need for a much more robust DRM was probably needed.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Originally posted by cwoody222
The dongle?

Could that be the reason? When they were going to use the dongle it was probably just a USB thing - easy to be cross platform.

I wouldn't think so.

USB things (certainly custom USB devices like copy protection devices) require drivers. USB drivers on Mac OS X and on WinXP/Win2K are different. Again, though, it's probably a matter of 70-80% cross-platform code with glue on the specific OSes, depending on how well engineered the solution is.

You'd still need to integrate things with QuickTime and/or DirectShow, there'd just be a piece of hardware to talk to.

[fanimaniac]

Originally posted by rainwater
Does anyone read the actual details that Tivo posted? They said they are working on the Mac solution. They wouldn't say that if they weren't going to have one. It's not available now. I know that sucks if you have a Mac, but thats the facts.

I read the details -- and what they said is "We are currently working on ways to enable playback on Apple Macintosh computers." -- notice that they only mention PLAYBACK, and don't mention RECORDING TO DVD. I don't think that wording was unintentional...

[Unix_Beard]

Originally posted by TiVoBill
I don't know.. I work in Customer Support, not Engineering. :) All I know is, it's not ready, and won't be released until it is. If you would like to join the TiVo engineering staff, they always have openings (and far more to do than time to do it).

TivoBill, thanks for chiming in. Its nice to have an actual human from a company interact personally with their company's customers.

If the versions were being worked on in parallel and you state that it just wasn't ready for the "Launch," can't Tivo commit to some timeframe? Can Tivo commit to 2005? It must be close if what you say is true. Is the big hoopla over a Tivo-Microsoft partnership in some way hindering the Mac development?

I know you probably can't answer these questions but what the hell.

From a customer service standpoint, I'd just like to add that I bought into the whole Tivo thing last year specifically because it appeared as if you treated Mac users equally. That was refreshing. This series of events is disappointing and while it won't be enough to make me give up my Tivo, I doubt I'd buy another one or commit to the lifetime contract until this is sorted out. Some communication with your engineering department and a little PR wouldn't hurt. Thanks.

[tonyf3]

original post from bmgoodman:

I burned the first three hours of 24 last night and I had no problems with the transfer. However, the three episodes I recorded at "high" looked like crap once I played the DVD! I did use the "Fit-to-DVD" option, so maybe that was it.
There was a very noticeable increase in jpg-like "blockiness", but more than that, there were shifting horizontal lines, especially immediately after an action scene. It doesn't play this way on my PC, so it appears to be a transcoding issue.

Sheesh--after spending three hours of PC time to transcode it, I am SORELY DISAPPOINTED. If THIS is as good as it gets, I've got pretty close to nothing!
_____________________________________
I was thinking of adding more TiVo's to my network but after reading this users experience I think I'm going to wait a while to see how this all shakes out.
tonyf3

[tonyf3]

Oh, I forgot to mention. Day 16 since signing up on the priorty list and still have Software version:4.0.1b-02-2-140. Have a nice day.

[TiVoBill]

Originally posted by themacjedi
I can honestly say that I would rather have a release date that you miss than to be given absolutely no info. Atleast then I believe it's being worked on. Your lack of information is what breeds all of the mad Mac user posts on forums like these. As devoted customers of your service and publicizers of the greatness of TiVo we truly deserve better than this.

I don't know how much more clearly I can say "there is no release date scheduled." Do you want me to make a date up? ;)

[TiVoBill]

I have told you absolutely all information available at this time. For that reason, I will not be posting further in this thread. Feel free to continue speculating if you would like.

Edited message to tone it down without altering its meaning.

[Unix_Beard]

TivoBill - That last post really turned me off. It was rude and didn't need to be worded that way. Will the Mac version EVER be ready? Why is Tivo acting so defensive and rude about this? Obviously there is no date scheduled or it would have been posted. I work on very large projects myself but an end point is never open-ended. I don't tell my clients "it will be ready when its ready." I tell them a time frame so they know what to expect.

[Unix_Beard]

Originally posted by TiVoBill
I don't know how much more clearly I can say "there is no release date scheduled." Do you want me to make a date up? ;)

Are the people working on this really that out of it that they can't commit to a year? Wow.

[mdscott]

On T2G it self TiVo announced Fall -- and was treated to 3 months of excoriation. As a company they have made the decision not to announce a Mac time frame. Could they -- sure. Does someone in the company have an idea of when it is likely to be -- probably. Are they obligated to tell us however much noise we make -- absolutely not. Will that make some people angry and vocal -- clearly yes. Is all this a Machiavellian plot on the part of TiVoBill -- I don't think so...

mds

[corjulo]

Maybe Tivo is waiting for Apple to release Quicktime 7?

[Unix_Beard]

Originally posted by mdscott
On T2G it self TiVo announced Fall -- and was treated to 3 months of excoriation. As a company they have made the decision not to announce a Mac time frame. Could they -- sure. Does someone in the company have an idea of when it is likely to be -- probably. Are they obligated to tell us however much noise we make -- absolutely not. Will that make some people angry and vocal -- clearly yes. Is all this a Machiavellian plot on the part of TiVoBill -- I don't think so...
mds

Even Apple themselves can commit to a quarter for a major OS release.

I understand where you are coming from. Tivo didn't seem to have an issue with alienating the Windows people, why on earth should they care about us Mac people?

The twist here is that we are paying customers just like the Windows users. Why should we pay the same for less service without even a modicum of concern from Tivo's own Customer Service guy? We can deal with getting the high-hat on the Launch date but give us something. TivoBill gave nothing but vague comments as if he doesn't ever communicate with the engineering staff.

[corjulo]

I said it before and I'll say it again. Mac user need to turn up the pressure on Tivo. At this point the only thing tivo has going for itself is word of mouth. I say Mac users need to make it clear to Tivo that they will be actively discouraging people from buying Tivo until they start honoring their PROMISES to the Mac user base.

Just a reminder, if you have not complained to Tivo yet then call and do so now. Just keep saying "Live Agent" into their silly voice routing system. Number is 877-367-8486

[Unix_Beard]

Originally posted by corjulo
I said it before and I'll say it again. Mac user need to turn up the pressure on Tivo. At this point the only thing tivo has going for itself is word of mouth. I say Mac users need to make it clear to Tivo that they will be actively discouraging people from buying Tivo until they start honoring their PROMISES to the Mac user base.

Just a reminder, if you have not complained to Tivo yet then call and do so now. Just keep saying "Live Agent" into their silly voice routing system. Number is 877-367-8486

I agree. If Tivo wants to play games by stating obvious lines like "There is no scheduled release date" then it only escalates the discontent. That line is insulting. Of course there isn't or you'd have it posted on your website! In fact, THIS THREAD is already on the 2nd page of results if you Google "Tivo Mac." Not good.

[corjulo]

Hey

Tivo Bill. As a stock holder I think your attitude kinda SUCKS. It's bad enough how much money I've lost last year because Tivo was being run by idiots. Now I've got to listen to you insult people. At the very least we want an engineer, familiar with the Apple software, to give us an update. Is that all that hard? No date, just the nuts and bolt of what is done and needs to be done.

[timg]

Originally posted by corjulo
Hey

Tivo Bill. As a stock holder I think your attitude kinda SUCKS. It's bad enough how much money I've lost last year because Tivo was being run by idiots. Now I've got to listen to you insult people. At the very least we want an engineer, familiar with the Apple software, to give us an update. Is that all that hard? No date, just the nuts and bolt of what is done and needs to be done.

Ok, I am as unhappy with the situation as the next Mac user, but I seriously doubt Tivo Bill has any control of the situation. I also don't remember him insulting anyone, although the reverse is not true.

As for an engineer commenting on the situation, you must be dreaming. There's a reason a company like Tivo has a customer support department. Your best hope is that the customer support department relays your concerns to the company management and take some action. Of course, insulting Tivo Bill is not the way to get that done.

[cwoody222]

To Bill's defense.... we've been beating him pretty bad here and in other threads.

Maybe he does know more or wants to say more but CANNOT.

Either way, he's in a hard position and he's human. He snapped... a very small bit. And then he edited his post.

I would'a snapped way sooner.

I still wish I had Mac support NOW but I certainly don't blame Bill for it or for other major TiVo missteps lately.

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally posted by Unix_Beard
Even Apple themselves can commit to a quarter for a major OS release.

I understand where you are coming from. Tivo didn't seem to have an issue with alienating the Windows people, why on earth should they care about us Mac people?

The twist here is that we are paying customers just like the Windows users. Why should we pay the same for less service without even a modicum of concern from Tivo's own Customer Service guy? We can deal with getting the high-hat on the Launch date but give us something. TivoBill gave nothing but vague comments as if he doesn't ever communicate with the engineering staff.

seems like TiVo's own Customer Service Guy agve you way more than a modicum of concern. But like a vocal minority in many types of groups you just kept hammering the guy even though others in the thread were getting that he gave you the TiVo info tehre was to give. Yes you pay the same as me for TiVo but TiVo is a business and quite frankly Apple has not made an easy DRM available within its OS from what I read here. The problem has not been TiVo not wanting to support Macs, but apple being more trouble code wise to work with the published APIs of Windows.

The insistence of TiVo guessing the work left to be done when it is probably in Apples court anyway would be hard to keep reading and not snap. Thank God there are also a lot of level headed Apple Users in this thread as well.

PS - oh yah - calling Custoemr service to tell them the obvious is a good way to get better results as well. Much like hitting the <ENTER> key reepeatedly will get an app to run faster

[Unix_Beard]

Originally posted by ZeoTiVo
seems like TiVo's own Customer Service Guy agve you way more than a modicum of concern. But like a vocal minority in many types of groups you just kept hammering the guy even though others in the thread were getting that he gave you the TiVo info tehre was to give. Yes you pay the same as me for TiVo but TiVo is a business and quite frankly Apple has not made an easy DRM available within its OS from what I read here. The problem has not been TiVo not wanting to support Macs, but apple being more trouble code wise to work with the published APIs of Windows.

The insistence of TiVo guessing the work left to be done when it is probably in Apples court anyway would be hard to keep reading and not snap. Thank God there are also a lot of level headed Apple Users in this thread as well.

PS - oh yah - calling Custoemr service to tell them the obvious is a good way to get better results as well. Much like hitting the <ENTER> key reepeatedly will get an app to run faster

Great. So tell us its an Apple issue. Then we get on Apple's case.

Listen up. TivoBill is a CS guy for Tivo. His job is to satisfy customers. I'd gladly email Tivo and voice my concern if Tivo had a published CS email address. No one hammered anyone. When asked what the status was, TivoBill replied he was a CS guy not an engineering guy. A better response might have been "Let me touch base with engineering and get a clearer understanding of what's going on."

And you honestly believe that calling Customer Service of a company from whom you bought a product is not a legitimate way to voice your concerns? My god man, what else is left for the consumer? Quiet obedience?

And don't give me the Apple DRM. Apple has so far created the most successful and lenient DRM scheme on the planet with the iTMS.

[TiVoBill]

Originally posted by Unix_Beard

Listen up. TivoBill is a CS guy for Tivo. His job is to satisfy customers.

Actually, my job is to manage the creation and updating of content for our internal and external support sites. My time spent here is on a volunteer basis and often outside of business hours. I come here and share what information I am authorized to as a service to the community, which I have enjoyed being part of for the last the 5 years. Lately, this has become less of a community, and more of a platform for a few disgruntled people to "vent". The latter holds a lot less interest to me so perhaps I should reconsider how I spend my free time.

[Bierboy]

Way to go, jacka**es.

Bill, thank you for all the help you and the others (Liz, etc) have provided here. Should you part ways with this forum (I wouldn't blame you in the least), enjoy your free time.

[CrispyCritter]

Originally posted by Unix_Beard
Great. So tell us its an Apple issue. Then we get on Apple's case.
....
And don't give me the Apple DRM. Apple has so far created the most successful and lenient DRM scheme on the planet with the iTMS. Possibly. But knowingly screwed TiVo doing it.

TiVo and Apple had all kinds of plans about AAC and other things at the time of the HMO initial release. (Apple was about to start selling TiVo's in their store for instance, and had even taken delivery of the initial shipment of TiVo's). TiVo hinted that good things were coming. Apple then cancelled everything, and a couple months later came out with iTunes and no support for AAC in HMO.

TiVo is not about to publicize any future dates on the Mac release if it depends on Apple in any way. They've been burned once. I'm sure they're working with Apple about it, but publicizing dates seems very unlikely. It will come when it's ready.

[corjulo]

Originally posted by CrispyCritter
Possibly. But knowingly screwed TiVo doing it.

TiVo and Apple had all kinds of plans about AAC and other things at the time of the HMO initial release. (Apple was about to start selling TiVo's in their store for instance, and had even taken delivery of the initial shipment of TiVo's). TiVo hinted that good things were coming. Apple then cancelled everything, and a couple months later came out with iTunes and no support for AAC in HMO.

TiVo is not about to publicize any future dates on the Mac release if it depends on Apple in any way. They've been burned once. I'm sure they're working with Apple about it, but publicizing dates seems very unlikely. It will come when it's ready.


That's just nonsense. And, with what we know about Tivo and Comcast it's pretty clear killing relationships is something Tivo is good at. iTune pre-dated the HMO announcement by years. If you mean the Apple music store then any announcement about that prior to apple's release would have been business suicide on Tivo's part. AAC limits on music file is more likely something the artists are insisting on and not Apple. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TIVOTOGO.


I called tivo three times last fall and was assured a Mac release would be available the same time the PC version was. I purchased a second tivo and all the network crap based on that. NOW TIVO SAYS I WAS LIED TO AND TOUGH LUCK. I don't think so. Had someone, anyone, said the mac version will be delayed for several month then all of this would be a non-issue. But Tivo choose to lie.... three times.

Bill can stop coming here if he likes. But if he's volunteering on his own time then he might want to hide the fact that he works for tivo.

[NinjaMonkey]

What does Apple have to do with Tivo supporting AAC? AAC is .mp4 and has nothing to do with Apple. Now songs from the iTunes Music Store are protected AAC and is up to Apple to license the DRM.

My question is why can't Tivo just at least give us basic AAC support? Most of my music is encoded in AAC and I'm sure lots of other peoples is too. With iTunes being availible on Mac and Windows and AAC being the default ripping codec, you'd think Tivo would add support. TivoToGo support for the Mac is another thing but AAC isn't just a Mac issue anymore.

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally posted by Unix_Beard
Great. So tell us its an Apple issue. Then we get on Apple's case.

Listen up. TivoBill is a CS guy for Tivo. His job is to satisfy customers. I'd gladly email Tivo and voice my concern if Tivo had a published CS email address. No one hammered anyone. When asked what the status was, TivoBill replied he was a CS guy not an engineering guy. A better response might have been "Let me touch base with engineering and get a clearer understanding of what's going on."

And you honestly believe that calling Customer Service of a company from whom you bought a product is not a legitimate way to voice your concerns? My god man, what else is left for the consumer? Quiet obedience?

And don't give me the Apple DRM. Apple has so far created the most successful and lenient DRM scheme on the planet with the iTMS.

and apple will not license the DRM scheme to anyone which is why TiVo does not want to support AAC format and deal with people not understanding why some work and some dont. it was also why Realnetworks tried to break it on their own and then Apple changed it to break the hack.

and why TiVo can not use that DRM because Apple will not license it to anyone.

so you all picked a great company who make great OSes on well engineered boxes but as a result have their way of doing things to protect that and 3rd party companies have to deal with that in order to get something out. Now you all will have to deal with having to wait the extra time it takes for TiVo to deal with that since they could not get it out at the same time as the windows platform like they planned.

and jamming the phone system or pushing away the one source of info from TiVo that actually knows a bit more than a CSR trying to make the customer happy by saying sure it will be out is the reason I avoided this thread until now . I will go back to reading the thread by Mac users trying to figure out how to make things work anyway. Seems like the kind of spirit I more equated with Mac.

[Unix_Beard]

TivoBill - In all due respect, your title contains the words "Customer Service." When Tivo makes questionable decisions, you'd have to expect what you get in here. I apologize if I came off harsh (which I don't think I did) and you should keep posting. You were here long before me and I've gotten my questions answered. Of course, the ill will could be avoided by communication - and I don't mean in this forum. A technology company that doesn't answer email? I absolutely loved Tivo and now unfortunately thats changing.

[tonyf3]

ZeoTiVo & TiVo Bill.
I thank you for and appreciate you taking the time to comment in this thread. The thread was intended to start a dialog I hadn't seen in other threads about Mac support. You are correct in the Spirit equated with the Mac, that it is a more positive with a make things work kind of energy. I was initially peeved in the first post. But then bits and pieces have seemed to outline a picture that basically shows a lack of collaboration on the Apple & TiVo side, and a lack a timely useful communtication between TiVo and it's customer base. TiVo togo is a great idea. Mac users are just kind of used to having the great cool stuff first.

I hope Apple & TiVo can work out their issues in a timely manner and the TiVo Mac user base can enjoy this great feature.

[masteryoda305]

Ya. That tivo-mplayer build doesn't work. I couldn't get it to compile correctly, and the binary linked too from the site doesn't work.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by masteryoda305
Ya. That tivo-mplayer build doesn't work. I couldn't get it to compile correctly, and the binary linked too from the site doesn't work.



Is this the TiVo mplayer build for OSX?

[cwoody222]

Isn't TiVo mPlayer a version of mPlayer used to play STREAMS of content on your TiVo... and it's only been tested on old TiVo software. It was made awhile ago, right, to deal w/ streams and shows pulled from hacked Series1 machines.

It's been around way before TiVo started allowing downloads and began encrypting them.

So this mPlayer isn't going to be able to handle the encryption at all.

[tonyf3]

Day 20, still waiting for 7.1. Signed Priorty list on 1/3.

[tonyf3]

I don't suppose if my network was down at the time of the 7.1 push that it would re-send it later.
I was on the priorty list the first day. I discovered that my wife had knocked the plug out for the router while vacuming. It was down for a few hours. Damn.

[cwoody222]

If you're on the list to get it you'll get it the next time you call in. Regardless of when that is.

There's not a 'window of opportunity' that if you miss it, you're out of luck until the general release.

[tonyf3]

Thanks cwoody, still waiting.

[tonyf3]

Wondering if any Apple folks would care to chime in unoffically & anonymously of course, about what's going on with the Mac TiVo togo release.

[tonyf3]

Reaching out to Apple here a little because TiVo seems to be mum on "they're working on it", and in some of the posts the finger is pointed squarly at Apple for some of the issues and delays. Just wondering if anybody in, at, or close to Apple has anything to say. Anonymously of course.

[SavMan]

Originally posted by tonyf3
Wondering if any Apple folks would care to chime in unoffically & anonymously of course, about what's going on with the Mac TiVo togo release.

Tony, I don't know why you have assumed that Apple has anything to do with this program. You and I have been though seven forum pages on this topic (I was the first to respond to your thread), and the only real, official information was TiVoBill reacting rudely to an assertion that there should be an approximate release date for a program. Apple's FairPlay DRM for iTMS music and their lack of cooperation with TiVo on said DRM has nothing to do with this.

TiVo to Go worked on a Mac during its preview version at the 2004 CES. However, between there and today, TiVo decided to require a proprietary Windows program to decode its own DRM scheme. One or two people on this forum have chosen to argue with me that this is not a Microsoft DRM. Whether you want to split hairs or not, DirectShow (Microsoft tech) is required to decode your .tivo files, and Bill Gates has gloated publicly about his partnership with TiVo. Make your own decision about what that means.

But it's a bit infuriating that given no information from TiVo, you have pieced together the idea that Apple, a company that need have nothing to do with TiVo for TTG to work, is somehow conspiring in a back room to keep this project from coming out. Nowhere in the entire body of information on this site is there any evidence at all of Apple having anything to do with this delay. Quicktime is the industry standard for digital video, and is quite open. There's a reason that Quicktime was picked as the basis for MPEG-4. Likewise, OSX is nearly open-source and has quite an extensive library of developer tools. To claim that Apple is purposefully holding back another company's project, thereby allowing Windows to claim better functionality with the number-one DVR in the industry, comes across as naive. I mean really, when it came out for PC you told everyone to wait for MacWorld (a hope that was of course, unfounded). You laid down a deadline for TiVo to let us know what was going on by the 30th, then "sharpen the pitchforks." I agree with this. Now, however, you've decided to shift the blame to Apple, which is useless since they have nothing to do with TiVo's development team.

Let us not be led to stab futilely at the red cloth -- instead we should charge for the matador. TiVo is the one who is screwing us here. Until we get some real info, we have no reason to believe they will ever give us a version for our platform. If you want this program to ever exist for the Mac, you need to direct your ire toward the appropriate company - TiVo.

I'm not saying that building this is easy, but it's certainly not impossible. However, TiVo's slavish insistence to insult us with no release date whatsoever speaks more to a lack of development on TiVo's part than anything to do with an independent company such as Apple. If a version ever comes out, and we learn that Apple was keeping a new version, I will personally apologize to you and TiVoBill. However, nothing has come out that could even hint at that.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by SavMan
Tony, I don't know why you have assumed that Apple has anything to do with this program. You and I have been though seven forum pages on this topic (I was the first to respond to your thread), and the only real, official information was TiVoBill reacting rudely to an assertion that there should be an approximate release date for a program. Apple's FairPlay DRM for iTMS music and their lack of cooperation with TiVo on said DRM has nothing to do with this.

TiVo to Go worked on a Mac during its preview version at the 2004 CES. However, between there and today, TiVo decided to require a proprietary Windows program to decode its own DRM scheme. One or two people on this forum have chosen to argue with me that this is not a Microsoft DRM. Whether you want to split hairs or not, DirectShow (Microsoft tech) is required to decode your .tivo files, and Bill Gates has gloated publicly about his partnership with TiVo. Make your own decision about what that means.

But it's a bit infuriating that given no information from TiVo, you have pieced together the idea that Apple, a company that need have nothing to do with TiVo for TTG to work, is somehow conspiring in a back room to keep this project from coming out. Nowhere in the entire body of information on this site is there any evidence at all of Apple having anything to do with this delay. Quicktime is the industry standard for digital video, and is quite open. There's a reason that Quicktime was picked as the basis for MPEG-4. Likewise, OSX is nearly open-source and has quite an extensive library of developer tools. To claim that Apple is purposefully holding back another company's project, thereby allowing Windows to claim better functionality with the number-one DVR in the industry, comes across as naive. I mean really, when it came out for PC you told everyone to wait for MacWorld (a hope that was of course, unfounded). You laid down a deadline for TiVo to let us know what was going on by the 30th, then "sharpen the pitchforks." I agree with this. Now, however, you've decided to shift the blame to Apple, which is useless since they have nothing to do with TiVo's development team.

Let us not be led to stab futilely at the red cloth -- instead we should charge for the matador. TiVo is the one who is screwing us here. Until we get some real info, we have no reason to believe they will ever give us a version for our platform. If you want this program to ever exist for the Mac, you need to direct your ire toward the appropriate company - TiVo.

I'm not saying that building this is easy, but it's certainly not impossible. However, TiVo's slavish insistence to insult us with no release date whatsoever speaks more to a lack of development on TiVo's part than anything to do with an independent company such as Apple. If a version ever comes out, and we learn that Apple was keeping a new version, I will personally apologize to you and TiVoBill. However, nothing has come out that could even hint at that.

SavMan,
I've greatly apppreciated your insightful posts. I wasn't implying that it was Apple's fault or problem. I was just interested to see if anyone from the Apple side had any info on this that they could share. I also feel a we need to keep this issue visible.

Tonyf3

See copyied post below:
Originally posted by corjulo
Just talked to Tivo and a good friend at Apple. Tivo- to-go will indeed run on a Mac. This guy works in the Quicktime group so he would have first hand knowledge. Can't say for certain it will be working right away. He would not go into it anymore then that.

I then called Tivo and said I was thinking of adding a second machine. I made them check with a supervisor about the Mac questions. They also said yes.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by jduksta
All TiVo needs to do is release a codec for quicktime*.

If they want to do their DRM thing, they can insert it into the processing stream for Quicktime, just as they have under windows. While they're at it, they should be sure to use the keychain for storing that damn viewing password. Damn, I hate that thing. They would surely want to include a nice Cocoa GUI for retrieving the files from TiVo, but I could live without that given that the web interface exists.

All primary work in the house has switched to Macs over the last year, but I've still got a Shuttle XPC that lives as the repository of all media. I've been playing with TTG for the last week and frankly, I'm unimpressed. It requires admin rights to run and seemingly to use the media. I can't get an unpriviledged account to run the software or play the .tivo files. This is bad for security and really annoying. I've also had trouble getting TD 2.0 to see and connect to TiVo to pull shows, both with and without the XP firewall running. It would be really handy if I could hardcode TiVo's IP address into TD 2.0, or they could just use Rendezvous.

In case I haven't laid out a clear enough development plan for TiVo, here it goes:

- Quicktime codec to do the DRM business.
- Plug current encryption algorithm functions into a Quicktime component.
It shouldn't be hard. Data goes in one end encrypted and comes out the
other in the clear.
- Use the keychain to store the playback password.
- Needs to work as an unpriviledged user.

- Cocoa GUI to retrieve the .tivo files.
- If rendezvous is still in the box (wasn't it used for the original HMO
connection to Macs?) turn it back on and have TiVo annouce itself
to the GUI.
- Failing that, give me a place to hard code an IP address for each Tivo I may have.
- Needs to run as an unpriviledged user.

If TiVo follows this simple plan, they would have iLife integration immediately. No third party burning applications would be required. I couldn't see this taking more than a month or two to develop and QA. However, the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that TiVo's partners** in TTG might prefer that there wasn't Mac support for this.

* developer.apple.com/documentation/QuickTime/RM/CompressDecompress/CodecComponents/rmCodecComp/chapter_1_section_1.html
** tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=233



Well said jduksta. I love detailed plans. Now they just have to follow them.

[cwoody222]

I don't believe that post by corjulo at all. Wasn't it made weeks ago? What proof does he have.

And calling TiVo and asking means nothing. TiVo HAS said they're developing Mac support. They just haven't said if it'll come in a few days, a few weeks, or months or years. Customer service (and any 'manager' around to ask) would have zero knowledge of detailed plans that they would share w/ callers.

As for Rendezvous... that technology is still present in 7.1. It was never removed. It works the same as it always does for easy TiVo connectivity to your network.

[SavMan]

Fair enough, tonyf3. As long as everyone is clear here that TiVo, not Apple, is the one who is keeping us from getting our TiVoToGo. I don't know how much stock I can put in corjulo's anonymous, unsubstantiated, second-hand post, though.

<broad, possibly incorrect assumptions posted as if they were fact>
Jduksta's post (quoted above) I think hammers home the reality I've been trying to show for the last three weeks -- TiVo has sold out to Microsoft for exclusive rights, either temporarily or permanently. Much like Bungie was bought by Microsoft simply to steal Halo from Mac users and provide the "killer app" for XBox, Microsoft and our favorite DVR company has a partnership here to keep Mac users from using a service that is supposed to be included with TiVo. We know that it used to work for Mac, we know that Gates has gloated about his partnership with TiVo, and we know that TiVo refuses to give us any idea to when we will be supported. We also know now, from someone whom I assume has enough background to know what he's talking about, that there's nothing extravagantly hard about making this work for the Mac. What are we supposed to think, TiVo? There's really no precedent for this sort of "whenever we get around to it" timeline, except for vaporware... and so far Mac TTG is following that pattern perfectly.
</broad, possibly incorrect assumptions posted as if they were fact>

For sure, though, Rendezvous is still present in 7.1, just like all builds since HMO was released.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Originally posted by tonyf3
Originally posted by jduksta
All TiVo needs to do is release a codec for quicktime*.

* developer.apple.com/documentation/QuickTime/RM/CompressDecompress/CodecComponents/rmCodecComp/chapter_1_section_1.html

Speaking as someone who's written a few QuickTime components (codecs and the like) over the years, they most likely wouldn't want to write a codec component. They'd need to write a movie import component to parse the .tivo format and build a QuickTime movie, and then, most likely, they'd write a media handler to actually do the decrypt. They'd want to do what they do on the Windows side and reuse the Apple MPEG-2 codec to do the decompress (it's heavily optimized already, works, and, unlike on the Windows side, would for nearly all people be the only codec to use and not suffer the compatibility issues you run into with DirectShow.)

What they very well might need support from Apple for would be blocking apps upstream from their components from doing things they don't want done (like easy transcoding to unprotected formats, for example -- the DRM stuff, a la FairPlay.) The support for this must be somewhere in QuickTime, since FairPlay uses it, but I don't know how public the APIs are (never had reason to play with them myself.) For most things like this, it'd just be a regular developer tech support incident. But with DRM involved, who knows?

I'd agree that it's not likely that they need something from Apple that Apple isn't being forthcoming with, but it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility, either.

[anazoal]

Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson
What they very well might need support from Apple for would be blocking apps upstream from their components from doing things they don't want done (like easy transcoding to unprotected formats, for example -- the DRM stuff, a la FairPlay.) The support for this must be somewhere in QuickTime, since FairPlay uses it, but I don't know how public the APIs are (never had reason to play with them myself.) For most things like this, it'd just be a regular developer tech support incident. But with DRM involved, who knows?


I agree, but that is not what's happening now with TiVo's DRM implementation on Windows, since any application can manipulate the video stream once it's been decoded by the Tivo DirectShow filter. Why aim for perfection on the Mac version of TiVo Desktop, when the Windows DRM is flawed?

[SavMan]

Originally posted by anazoal
I agree, but that is not what's happening now with TiVo's DRM implementation on Windows, since any application can manipulate the video stream once it's been decoded by the Tivo DirectShow filter. Why aim for perfection on the Mac version of TiVo Desktop, when the Windows DRM is flawed?

Yes... why oh why could the MICROSOFT version be up and running, despite the fact that it is crippled, when the Mac version is literally NOWHERE to be found? Back room deals, perhaps? If TiVo had any plans to make this, they'd give us a timeline. Yes, I don't care... make up a date -- then stick to it. It's not hard, TiVo is the only company I've ever heard of who couldn't figure that out. This is getting ridiculous.

[mattman]

Originally posted by SavMan
Yes... why oh why could the MICROSOFT version be up and running, despite the fact that it is crippled, when the Mac version is literally NOWHERE to be found? Back room deals, perhaps? If TiVo had any plans to make this, they'd give us a timeline. Yes, I don't care... make up a date -- then stick to it. It's not hard, TiVo is the only company I've ever heard of who couldn't figure that out. This is getting ridiculous.

That's overly harsh. I'm disappointed and frustrated that TiVo has not announced any firm date, or even a WAG about when TTG for Mac will be out, but I understand that they are working on it and it will take time.

It doesn't take much to figure out why it was out for Windows first. Marketshare, it simply makes more sense to devote the resources to that project first, no need for conspiracy theorys. I only use Macs, so it's not a backhanded swipe at Macs, just a recognition of reality.

As far as having to wait, there are SO many examples of hardware delays, software delays, movie delays, book delays from promised dates, that in my mind TiVo doesn't really stand out, other than the amount of complaining I see about it, and in reality, that's mostly because I read these forums.

I appreciate your frustration, and share it, but I think that it's really not all that different from what we see every day.

Matt