Mac Users lack Tivo togo support

[Quevar]

I'm bummed...I was looking into TiVoTool and getting ready to hack my TiVo, but then I read that TiVo Series 2.5 can't be hacked (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=252343). That was very disappointing to me. I'd thought TiVo was open to the idea of making the TiVo platform more open, but apparently this is not the case. I'm stuck running them through a Windows machine to be able to watch them on my Mac.

[rog]

I'm bummed...I was looking into TiVoTool and getting ready to hack my TiVo, but then I read that TiVo Series 2.5 can't be hacked.

Not quite true. It can be hacked, but it requires a hardware modification. You'd have to either:

1) unsolder your PROM, reprogram it with an IC programmer, then resolder it (not an easy task, and most people don't have an IC programmer lying around).

2) buy a pre-programmed PROM and solder it in place of your existing PROM.

From there you would be able to run the kernel hacks needed for TiVoTool, TiVoWeb, etc.

[Quevar]

Yeah, I guess there is that route, but that takes a lot more skill than the other models. I'm not that confident that I could do it. With the software hacks, you can always make a backup, but if you mess up the soldering, then you are pretty much out a TiVo - not worth the risk to me. Maybe if I'd just gotten it and didn't have a lifetime membership on the unit, I'd try it. I guess I'll just have to wait for Mac TTG.

[rog]

I hear you, I just wanted to make sure you knew about the hardware-hack options.

I made the same decision too. It's not worth the risk.

[tonyf3]

Today I ordered from my cable company (Charter Communications) their 2 tuner PVR. I pay $6.00 a month for the regular Digital cable box. This was $9.99 and replaces it. Net difference $3.99. I thought the functionality might be very basic, I was surprised to find out it wasn't as basic as I thought. For $3.99 how can I go wrong. The 2 TiVo's I have now run me $14.00.

http://charter.com/services/dvr/dvr.aspx

I've had it. No communication, No effort. Now...,they hire a Mac developer? Great. Too little too late. The next nail in the TiVo coffin will be Apple's PVR and ipod Video.

[tonyf3]

http://www.lowendmac.com/scope/010502.html

[chessplayer]

Mac vs. PC is a personal choice (and choosing both, the compatibilist position, is another option). And it is not the subject of this thread.

Those who choose Windows should be respectful of those who choose Mac and vice versa -- there's no need for all the insults and calling people bigots.

And in turn, TiVo should be more respectful towards their Mac customers by communicating their intentions in an honest and straightforward manner, rather than stringing people along with re-assuring but vague statements.

[tonyf3]

Mac vs. PC is a personal choice (and choosing both, the compatibilist position, is another option). And it is not the subject of this thread.

Those who choose Windows should be respectful of those who choose Mac and vice versa -- there's no need for all the insults and calling people bigots.

And in turn, TiVo should be more respectful towards their Mac customers by communicating their intentions in an honest and straightforward manner, rather than stringing people along with re-assuring but vague statements.


I agree.

[tonyf3]

From the front page of the tivo web site.

"It's about time. And Choice.
Only TiVo gives you the freedom to watch your favorite shows any time, anywhere."

They never cease to amaze me. It is!...about time and choice.

My choice, Apple! Timely support? No!
Watch Anywhere? No again!
Coming soon? No *#@ idea!
Why? The time and money to develop TTG for Mac. (9 months since the windows release)

They're claims are only half true, and arrogant considering they know all to well where they've come up short. So they just ignore it and promote what they haven't really delivered on to their paying subscribers. Lets piss off the users who are already pissed off. They're a small market share and nobody will really notice anyway.

[Fofer]

Dude, just hack the box already. TiVo's not coming out with official support anytime soon. May as well get it going yourself.

[tonyf3]

Dude, just hack the box already. TiVo's not coming out with official support anytime soon. May as well get it going yourself.

Ok, anyone have detailed intrux with pics for the soldering part.
The last time I soldered anything was on a Radio Shack 8 Track in 1976.

[schalliol]

Well, I thought I'd add myself to the list of people with Series 2 DVRs (just bought one yesterday) and Macs praying day after day, lighting candles, and whispering sweet nothings into the TiVo logo with the hope that it will help get TiVoToGo out for Mac. I wouldn't have bought the TiVo if I didn't think that there would be a release of TiVoToGo, but of course I am way out of the TiVo development loop...so this is really just faith that the people that brought us this innovative device will release this product for us. With the attempted humor in the job posting, all I have to say is that they can end this by providing a release date. This is something professional developers should be able to obtain with relative certainty, though people often do screw it up by not doing a full evaluation of what needs to be done.

Oh, and I recently referred 9 Mac users to TiVo, all connected to networks waiting...

[ionblue]

Well, I thought I'd add myself to the list of people with Series 2 DVRs (just bought one yesterday) and Macs praying day after day, lighting candles, and whispering sweet nothings into the TiVo logo with the hope that it will help get TiVoToGo out for Mac. I wouldn't have bought the TiVo if I didn't think that there would be a release of TiVoToGo, but of course I am way out of the TiVo development loop...so this is really just faith that the people that brought us this innovative device will release this product for us. With the attempted humor in the job posting, all I have to say is that they can end this by providing a release date. This is something professional developers should be able to obtain with relative certainty, though people often do screw it up by not doing a full evaluation of what needs to be done.

Oh, and I recently referred 9 Mac users to TiVo, all connected to networks waiting...

Don't hold your breath. I seriously doubt it will ever come. Why? If they had wanted to have Mac compatibility from the beginning of TTG, they would have chosen a DRM that was cross platform compatible!!!

Makes me hate my Tivo.......

[Unix_Beard]

Don't hold your breath. I seriously doubt it will ever come. Why? If they had wanted to have Mac compatibility from the beginning of TTG, they would have chosen a DRM that was cross platform compatible!!!

Makes me hate my Tivo.......

I agree. The Tivo employees that post go out of their way to placate upset customers. The silence on this issue and the inexplicable disregard for our concern is disheartening. 56,000 page views don't lie.

[cwoody222]

I think I started the August thread... who wants to start the "TiVo... it's been 9+ months, are you still working hard? Gee, you must be tired" thread? :)

[timg]

I think I started the August thread... who wants to start the "TiVo... it's been 9+ months, are you still working hard? Gee, you must be tired" thread? :)

Not me, I already did my share of "It's been X months, where's the Mac version" posts.

[Fofer]

Do you think anyone employed at TiVo, Inc. is even monitoring this thread?

[cwoody222]

No, they're too busy working hard at bring support to us because they value all of us as loyal TiVo customers ;)

[tonyf3]

Do you think anyone employed at TiVo, Inc. is even monitoring this thread?

I'd like to think so. We're not going away until they deliver what they've promised, and what we're paying for.

[Ren]

I just found a tivo desktop icon on my ibook g4 in the system prefs and when I clicked it, it asked me what playlists and photo albums i wanted to publish to my tivo. After i did so - my mac showed up on my tivo and my files. Is this normal? excited! Ren

[rog]

I just found a tivo desktop icon on my ibook g4 in the system prefs and when I clicked it, it asked me what playlists and photo albums i wanted to publish to my tivo. After i did so - my mac showed up on my tivo and my files. Is this normal? excited! Ren

Of course. What did you think TiVoDesktop was for when you installed it? :confused:

[ionblue]

Of course. What did you think TiVoDesktop was for when you installed it? :confused:

HEH! That's pretty damn funny.....

Thanks for the chuckle!

[Ren]

i was excited by it because for some reason it wasn't working when I first tried using it. I read all the horror stories about how mac just isn't supported and I gave up for a while. then i was searching my computer for funsies and i found that icon, i hadn't noticed where it was located before. it all seemed new to me. then low and behold it worked. maybe my connection was down the first time i had tried it.

Ren.

[jushen1]

Ren,

Ran across your posts on two Mac threads. I must admit that you are a funny guy! :D

[cautionespn]

AS a VERY long time TiVo customer (owned a series 1 and now own 2 series 2 boxes). I'm frankly appalled at the continued lack of Mac OS X support for TiVoToGo.

[MacBrian]

AS a VERY long time TiVo customer (owned a series 1 and now own 2 series 2 boxes). I'm frankly appalled at the continued lack of Mac OS X support for TiVoToGo.

You know what? I've come to the conclusion that TiVoToGo just ain't worth it. I had a Series 2 40-hour machine that I sold and replaced with a refurbed 80-hour Humax DVD/TiVo. It has been worth every penny! When I want to archive a TV program, a few clicks of the remote and within 10-15 minutes I've got a DVD ready to label. You can't beat it...especially if you've experienced the failure that is TiVoToGo.

True, you can't edit out commercials on the DVD TiVos, but if you REALLY want to exorcise them from your personal video archive you can easily find software for either MAC or WINDOWS that will let you edit and re-author a Tivo-burned DVD. And doing it that way is FAR less painful and time-consuming than using TiVoToGo.

The TiVoToGo service just recently appeared on my Humax DVD S2 unit with a recent software upgrade. I tried it again and remembered why I made the switch. The transfer time from TiVo > Computer is SO slow...it usually takes well over 1 hour for a 1-hour show to transfer on my wired network. And then when it's done transferring, you have to use Sonic's MyDVD to author the DVD. Editing out commercials is so slow as to be laughable. MyDVD works well with regular video files, but the DRM-burdened overhead in the .TIVO files makes trying to edit a joke. And so far, MyDVD is the ONLY "sanctioned" tool for working with .TIVO files. All the other solutions require freeing the .TIVO file from the DRM wrapper, then using an authoring program to edit and burn the DVD. All this adds up to a bunch of extra chair-time in front of the computer. What's a 43-minute TV episode worth to you? 4+ hours of your time?

The best time-saving solution to accomplish the task of archiving TiVo shows is to just use a stand-alone DVD recorder and use the "Save to VCR" function to make the transfer. Sure, it's another analog > digital conversion, but honestly, you're NOT losing enough quality to be bothersome to any but the most critical of eyes. And if you're that critical, you're using the wrong tools and should be capturing straight from your program source to a DVD recorder to begin with...without a TiVo in the middle of things.

The time to create a pristine, all-digital copy of a recorded TiVo show is WAY out of proportion to the benefit IMHO. I've elected to NOT hack my trusted Series I TiVo to get video files off of it. Instead, I just ran an S-Video and RCA audio from the back of the S1 TiVo to the front input jacks of my Humax DVD/TiVo and transfer programs to DVD that way. The results are perfectly acceptable to me, and it doesn't take hours and hours of chair-time in front of the computer to do it. (As a matter of fact, I swear some shows actually end up looking BETTER on my 43" TV once transferred to DVD in this fashion than they do from the original S1 TiVo!)

TiVo's unparalleled fast-forward function works so well that editing out commercials from personal archive material is a waste of time. DVDs are cheap enough...so what if you can only get two hour-long episodes (with commercials) on a DVD instead of four episodes (sans commercials)? If you value your time at all, LIFE is more important than saving a $1 DVD for every four that you burn.

Besides, in 20 years, those commercials will have a certain level of nostalgia and therefore have their own merit in being worth the space they occupy on the DVD. I certainly enjoy seeing old nostalgic commercials for toys I had in my childhood. (Anyone remember the dangling spiders and klitchy jingle for Mattel's Creepy Crawlers from the 1960s? I HATED that commercial when I was a kid because it played all the time. Nowadays it just makes me smile. What a hoot it is!)

I'm no longer feeling so irked with TiVo for not providing Mac tools. Because of the DRM overhead, the whole concept is a bust (IMHO) and I think TiVo realizes that the reality of TiVoToGo has turned out to be far less than hoped for. It's a great marketing feature, but it's just impractical since it rarely saves time over doing an analog copy to a DVD recorder. Unfortunately, the angry Mac masses haven't realized what a disappointing failure TiVoToGo really is because they haven't the tools to be able to experience the disappointment themselves. I have both Macs and PCs and therefore have seen just how ugly the whole concept turned out to be with regard to the amount of time it takes to use it.

Just some thoughts to consider...be careful what you ask for. It may not be as good as you think once you get it! I, for one, would far rather see TiVo concentrate on other things, like letting me stream downloaded video podcasts to my TV screen like I can do with audio podcasts. I far prefer my home theatre and comfy furniture when watching TWiT or Diggnation or CommandN than sitting at my computer!

--MacBrian

[Fofer]

Thanks for your comments, TiVoBrian... I appreciate where you're coming from.

Ironically enough, as a Mac user, I'm able to really appreciate my hacks. Being able to extract my digital recordings, sans DRM, in under 3 minutes feels very nice!

And I see no reason to feel "bad" about it either, since TiVo hasn't really given me a choice.

[Unix_Beard]

Part of the reason I want TTG on the Mac is because of editing. The only thing I would bother archiving are musical performances on TV shows. I would rarely archive a whole show or movie.

I did buy an external DVD-recorder. Maybe my aversion to manuals is costing me. Say I want to archive an hour show. As far as I can tell, I have to stand there and manually stop the DVD at the end of the show. That's kind of lame. I guess I could play with timers and whatnot but to tell the truth, Tivo and computers have made timers irrelevant. :)

[tonyf3]

ipod video downloaded shows don't have commercials. nice

[bedelman]

ipod video downloaded shows don't have commercials. niceBut, unlike music, most folks will only watch a television show a relatively small number of times. I'd like to see an option to have the shows at a lower price point with commercials.

[Lon]

But, unlike music, most folks will only watch a television show a relatively small number of times.
I don't mean to be contrary, but if that were the logic then why are DVDs of TV shows boxed and marketed?

[mdscott]

I don't mean to be contrary, but if that were the logic then why are DVDs of TV shows boxed and marketed?
My guess in this area is that people tend to overestimate how often they will watch boxed sets. I certainly do.

mds

[bedelman]

I don't mean to be contrary, but if that were the logic then why are DVDs of TV shows boxed and marketed?But there's a large difference in the quality of the video (DVD versus iTunes Video) -- not to mention the bonus material.

[Gunnyman]

I <heart Tivotool>

[Lon]

But there's a large difference in the quality of the video (DVD versus iTunes Video) -- not to mention the bonus material.
Without a doubt, you are correct. But the fact remains that there is a market audience for TV show purchase. And pricing seems to reflect quality offering (1 season of LOST on iTMS $ < DVD box list $ -- granted the price difference is minimal at discount retailers.)

I suspect that we will see Apple's downloads improve in quality as when the audience can support larger downloads (i.e., when a greater percentage of people have multi-megabit/s download capabilities).

iTMS is also providing an alternative to VCR/DVR in ala-carte viewing for shows that (at least in my neighborhood) are not available via cable On-Demand service.

[cwoody222]

There may be a glimmer of hope (if you can actually believe TiVo reps & engineers after all the misinformation about Mac support this year) on this page:

http://thousandrobots.com/blog/archives/2005/10/a_conversation.php

The reason given for no ToGo support seems fishy to me. They say it's because of incompatible MPEG2 or something... but if that were the case wouldn't even TiVo shows pulled from hacked machines not play on Macs? And neither would ones that people strip the DRM off of?

[bedelman]

They say it's because of incompatible MPEG2 or something... but if that were the case wouldn't even TiVo shows pulled from hacked machines not play on Macs? And neither would ones that people strip the DRM off of?In order to play MPEG2 files with QuickTime, it's necessary to purchase an additional $20 package from Apple for handling MPEG2. Even with that, I've heard that the filtered TTG files won't play properly. However, VLC can handle them with no problem and, apparently, without the QuickTime MPEG2 plug-in.

[Fofer]

The reason given for no ToGo support seems fishy to me. They say it's because of incompatible MPEG2 or something... but if that were the case wouldn't even TiVo shows pulled from hacked machines not play on Macs? And neither would ones that people strip the DRM off of?

The files I pull off my TiVo (Thanks, TiVoTool) play back beautifully in QuickTime Player, with the MPEG-2 plug-in. So I'm not sure what that dude is talking about. Surely it's a DRM issue.

[Justin Thyme]

Here is what ADM at thousandrobots posted about the conversation:
Mac support for TivoToGo. They are working on it right now, and are hoping to ship something in the first quarter of 2006. He was reluctant to give me even that vague date, because the ship date could slip and he didn't want to be held to that prediction yet. Fair enough.

I asked him what the specific problem was that needed to be solved for Mac support. He said that Apple's implementation of MPEG2 in Quicktime is incompatible with Tivo's implementation of MPEG2. He's said he's put in a ton of calls to Apple in the last year asking them to "fix" it, but he was told they "don't have time" and so have never gotten around to it. He said that his engineers thought they knew how to fix the issue, but Apple wasn't interested in committing the resources to it. Apple also told him they are re-engineering Quicktime and are planning to release a new version next year, and that Tivo should just wait for that. He seemed genuinely frustrated by the whole thing. I don't know much about video codecs, but later I was wondering whether Tivo couldn't just offer some other MPEG2 codec with Tivo Desktop that would enable TivoToGo. Would that be possible? Sorry if that's a stupid question.

Despite the obstacle of the MPEG2 incompatibilities, he said I would be very happy with the Mac version of Tivo Desktop/TivoToGo that they are working on.

Tivo Desktop on Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger). Officially speaking, Tivo Desktop does not run on Tiger. The website clearly states this. But I told him the latest update to the Mac OS, 10.4.2, will work with Tivo Desktop and allow you to serve music and photos to your Tivo from your Mac. The Tivo Desktop installer will give you an error at the end of the installation process, but it will actually work. Apparently, this was not the case with 10.4 and 10.4.1, due to what he said was a problem with Rendezvous/Bonjour. He seemed dimly aware of the 10.4.2 situation, like I was reminding him of something he had learned in passing. I suggested to him that maybe Tivo's website could be updated to reflect that it works in 10.4.2. He emailed himself from his Treo(?) to remind him to get the website changed. It seems likely that the fact that the installer gives you an error despite a successful installation might ultimately dissuade him from doing this, but hopefully they will find a way to clearly communicate the reality of the situation to their users who (like me) kept checking the site to see whether they have released a Tiger-compatible version yet.
Matt at PVRBlog linked to him so maybe the information is for real, but I am confused about Tivo policy. If this information is being given to people at trade shows, why is it so hard to give it to the Tivo enthusiast sites- even if it is second hand through a third party so they have plausible deniability?

[Dennis Wilkinson]

The reason given for no ToGo support seems fishy to me. They say it's because of incompatible MPEG2 or something... but if that were the case wouldn't even TiVo shows pulled from hacked machines not play on Macs? And neither would ones that people strip the DRM off of?

I've had the Apple MPEG-2 QuickTime components since they were released, and there is plenty of MPEG-2 out there that they simply don't play (sometimes they play incorrectly, sometimes not at all.) In every case, MPlayer or VLC have played them perfectly. In most cases, it seems to be the way the compressed data is packed into streams that causes the components to give up the ghost, which to me implies that either the import components or the media handler components are wonky (Apple's components make up more than just a codec.) There are a lot of tools out there that do things like mux MPEG2 that have "make QuickTime compatible" checkboxes in their UIs.

Having written far too much QuickTime code, I'd take a wild-but-educated guess that the stumbling block is in programmatically converting TiVo's MPEG, post-decryption, into something Apple's components can handle (Apple's MPEG-1 implementation is barely documented, and MPEG-2 not at all.) I can see pretty easily how that gets distilled to "incompatible MPEG" in marketing-speak.

If they want to be good Mac citizens and play in the iApps, they'd need to provide an MPEG2 codec that runs under QuickTime, if they want to bypass Apple's MPEG codecs. Ignoring the licensing fees that that implies, that's a much taller order technically than shoehorning their DRM implementation under an existing MPEG component. TiVo's never implemented an MPEG codec before, either, at least not one they've ever shipped - the hardware has always used off-the-shelf parts, and the Wintel side relies on a supported DirectShow MPEG codec being installed.

[Justin Thyme]

Dennis- Is there any target date when this new version of quicktime will be out? Are there any Alphas or beta releases out yet?

Will ISVs like Tivo be able to write out Fairplay protected files then if that is not possible now?

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Dennis- Is there any target date when this new version of quicktime will be out? Are there any Alphas or beta releases out yet?

Will ISVs like Tivo be able to write out Fairplay protected files then if that is not possible now?

Not sure about a release date for a new QuickTime version -- I've changed jobs recently, and while I'm still an Apple developer with access to the standard suite of prerelease software, I'm no longer privy to QuickTime seeds (of course, I couldn't tell you about any extant seeds or potential release dates even if I were privy to them, what with NDAs and all.)

That said, I don't see Fairplay getting more open to 3rd party developers. I suppose one could take the existence of a non-Apple product that can play ITMS AAC music (the Motorola ROKR) as a good sign, but I don't see this as a real shift in Apple's strategy -- I think they see it as just another "port" of iTunes. That's not terribly important, though -- for TTG, TiVo doesn't need Fairplay, unless they have a desire to play ITMS videos on the TiVo itself. That has other issues, not the least of which being that the codec the ITMS videos are encoded in isn't supported on the TiVo itself. I certainly don't see a need for TiVo to encrypt with Fairplay.

[Justin Thyme]

Right. Windows DRM was unnecessary to do TTG or play .Tivo files on laptops or MCE's. Tivo's DRM worked just fine.

But Fairplay is necessary if the .tivo file is going anywhere else legitimately- eg. to an iPod, or going the other direction- transcoding a fairplay video from iTunes store to GoBack to Tivo. For video fluidity, you need ISV access to the system supported DRM.

Content owner demand for system supported DRM is why can't just write off iTunes/ Fairplay and standardizes on some cross platform DRM like RealNetworks' Harmony.

It's true protections are really a joke on Windows now, but the infrastructure is there to lock it down in Vista, or at least make a more serious semblence of trying to maintain security. If there is no system support for DRM, it will be pretty darn easy to crack the chain of trust between modules. That's why I think Apple will go there too with Fairplay. Which means Tivo is locked out of access to iTunes as well precluded from using a competitor DRM on the Mac platform if things keep going the direction they are going.

[cwoody222]

Well, Dennis obviously knows a LOT more about this than I do.

So, the theory is that it's not DRM that's the problem it's post-DRM QuickTimes files? (while pre-DRM files we know play just fine, as do un-DRM'ed files)

[Dennis Wilkinson]

But Fairplay is necessary if the .tivo file is going anywhere else legitimately- eg. to an iPod, or going the other direction- transcoding a fairplay video from iTunes store to GoBack to Tivo. For video fluidity, you need ISV access to the system supported DRM.

Possibly. The "iTunes Store video to GoBack" case is the one I described -- no way around Fairplay there. But I don't see it absolutely blocking out the TTG->iPod path, which is certainly no worse for TiVo than the TTG->DVD path. Guess it depends on the mood of the attorneys that day. ;)

So, the theory is that it's not DRM that's the problem it's post-DRM QuickTimes files? (while pre-DRM files we know play just fine, as do un-DRM'ed files)

Not all pre-DRM MPEG2 files play fine, nor do all un-DRM'ed files. It wouldn't be about files, strictly, but programmatically feeding the data to Apple's MPEG2 components in such a way that everyone plays nicely together.

[Gunnyman]

I've had the Apple MPEG-2 QuickTime components since they were released, and there is plenty of MPEG-2 out there that they simply don't play (sometimes they play incorrectly, sometimes not at all.) In every case, MPlayer or VLC have played them perfectly. In most cases, it seems to be the way the compressed data is packed into streams that causes the components to give up the ghost, which to me implies that either the import components or the media handler components are wonky (Apple's components make up more than just a codec.) There are a lot of tools out there that do things like mux MPEG2 that have "make QuickTime compatible" checkboxes in their UIs.

Having written far too much QuickTime code, I'd take a wild-but-educated guess that the stumbling block is in programmatically converting TiVo's MPEG, post-decryption, into something Apple's components can handle (Apple's MPEG-1 implementation is barely documented, and MPEG-2 not at all.) I can see pretty easily how that gets distilled to "incompatible MPEG" in marketing-speak.

If they want to be good Mac citizens and play in the iApps, they'd need to provide an MPEG2 codec that runs under QuickTime, if they want to bypass Apple's MPEG codecs. Ignoring the licensing fees that that implies, that's a much taller order technically than shoehorning their DRM implementation under an existing MPEG component. TiVo's never implemented an MPEG codec before, either, at least not one they've ever shipped - the hardware has always used off-the-shelf parts, and the Wintel side relies on a supported DirectShow MPEG codec being installed.


Totally agree with Dennis here.
I use VLC to play back Tivo created MPEGS. QT is choppy most of the time.

[Justin Thyme]

But I don't see it absolutely blocking out the TTG->iPod path, which is certainly no worse for TiVo than the TTG->DVD path. Guess it depends on the mood of the attorneys that day.Absolutely correct. This is totally up to the content owners what they contractually demand of content distributors, or request of platform vendors via the MPAA's army of lawyers.

What I am very curious about is whether the content dudes will accept a cross platform DRM like Real's Harmony. Because I don't think the trivial end runs around DRM (like writing out to media then ripping back) are going to be around that much longer. It's just too easy to watermark this stuff and force all drivers to choke on protected content. Once Vista gets that sort of scheme working, content owners are going to forcefully request that DVR vendors only export to formats that can guarantee a similar level of protection.

But DRM can become a platform weapon to lock in customers- Such games by Apple and Microsoft are anticompetitive and should be prohibited. Oh yeah, I can see Microsoft maybe would provide their DRM on Macs, but I am not filled with warm fuzzy feelings about their motives, so I hope will see something viable from Real or someone else.

[krez]

I understand the business side of things-- more pc users than mac users-- but cmon, TiVo should see a kindred spirit in Apple. They both provide superior products, and yet they get sidelined by inferior competitors who are willing to go for the bottom dollar. Imagine a TiVo/Apple buyout?!

[EwanG]

Oh yeah, I can see Microsoft maybe would provide their DRM on Macs, but I am not filled with warm fuzzy feelings about their motives, so I hope will see something viable from Real or someone else.

You don't think this had anything to do with Microsoft's settlement with Real?

Just saying...

[Justin Thyme]

You can bet that Gates is doing whatever he can to see that there is no repeat in video what Apple did with Music. He doesn't have an analog of iTunes so that's why he has gone with Rhapsody. The rumors sites say MS's group tasked with competing with iTunes/Rhapsody has stopped signing up content folks. So it looks like everything will be focused on RealNetworks for Content, probably MS for the low level technology. (Real needs it- their encoder runs at least 2 times slower than either MS's or Divx's.)

Personally, I think Apple is going to cream him again, but I think we'll benefit from the battle because there will be some good deals and content we will likely be able to play on our Tivo's coming from Rhapsody.

If Apple continues its policy with FairPlay, I have no doubt there is going to be touching group hug between Rogers, Glaser and Gates on the CES stage.

Back to more terrestrial matters- I noticed WinAvi inputs .Tivos and writes out quicktime files. [Edit- This appears to be wrong. The WinAVI site states it does Quicktime conversion, and lists MOV as one of the supported formats, but apparently only as an input format. Never mind. Too bad- this might have been a one stop path from Tivo to video iPod. No dice.]]

[tonyf3]

But, unlike music, most folks will only watch a television show a relatively small number of times. I'd like to see an option to have the shows at a lower price point with commercials.

Good point Bed. How about .99 with commercials. I'd pay 2.99 without if I could download directly to my TiVo, and Transfer to the Video ipod. However, we need more content.
I'm hoping most Broadcast and cable Networks follow ABC and add not just their hit shows, but all of them. NBC is next I think. They're reportedly in talks. Offering previous seasons is great too.

Now you could say, hey we don't pay to play now. But I'll pay for it the next day with: No commercials, Higher Quality than 320x240, transfer seemlessly to my TiVo,laptop or video ipod, and limited DVD burn. Yeah, I'd pay for that. No subscription fees either it's ala cart. Just let me watch what I want, where I want, and when I want. That's what our friends at TiVo promise but don't quite deliver. But I'm still waiting, it's October of 2005 right. psssst. Mac mini pvr with Frontrow.

[ChofuHS]

That's why I dumped Mac. I love the machines, but about twelve years ago when Windows got at least reasonable, I just had to dump Mac. I couldn't do most of my banking, certain online games, poker online, etc.., with my Mac and the emulator (sp>) came out, it just didn't cut the cheese. I've heard their is an emulator now that allows Mac to be used on Windows programs. If I knew it really worked great, I'd switch back on my next computer purchase. Mac sucks when you can't do everything Windows does, even though Mac is THE best. Just another hurdle for Mac people to jump, which just is too annoying.

[cwoody222]

FYI: The ONLY thing I cannot do right now with my Mac is play files from my TiVo. No website I try to visit, no online service I try to use, no program I want, doesn't work on my Mac.

I'm a 'middle of the road' user. Not some super power use making tons of movies and playing online gaming 7 hours a day... but I do more than just exchange emails and IM's with my friends too.

The ONLY reason currently I'd even consider a Windows box is stupid TiVo's lack of Mac support. That's it. (and even that is no where near enough to get me to switch back to PC... not even close)

[tonyf3]

That's why I dumped Mac. I love the machines, but about twelve years ago when Windows got at least reasonable, I just had to dump Mac. I couldn't do most of my banking, certain online games, poker online, etc.., with my Mac and the emulator (sp>) came out, it just didn't cut the cheese. I've heard their is an emulator now that allows Mac to be used on Windows programs. If I knew it really worked great, I'd switch back on my next computer purchase. Mac sucks when you can't do everything Windows does, even though Mac is THE best. Just another hurdle for Mac people to jump, which just is too annoying.

In 1985 on a Mac 512K I started doing online Banking with Citibank. It was called Direct Access, it continues to this day. Later on, on my G4 I played online games like Unreal Tournament & Quake 3 Arena. A little more immersive than Poker. The emulator you mentioned is called Virtual PC and is now on version 7 and runs XP really well. You may be interested to know Office has been out on Mac for years and is actually better on Mac. Oh, and did I mention no VIRUSES!. Forgive me, but did you just come out of a bunker after 12 years? (there is nothing reasonable about owning a PC, they're just annoying boxes) There is ton of things a Mac does right out of the box that Windows just can't do, and it's killing Bill Gates. Visit an Apple Retail store and then tell us what you think.

[Justin Thyme]

Actually, in point of fact, both Excel and GUI Word first appeared on the Mac.

Tony, what did you think about the comments about non standard support of mpeg2 in quicktime? Why can't quicktime just play vanilla mpeg2 files? Why should companies have to reencode their mpeg2 streams so they are quicktime compatible?

System support for multimedia seems to come up a little short as far as generic multimedia data types are concerned.

Hopefully the rumored future release of quicktime will provide the necessary mpeg2 support and Tivo files will then play ok on the mac.

As far as playing iTunes Video on Tivo, I don't think Jobs is interested in driving hardware sales that don't have an Apple logo on them. It is highly doubtful he will license Fairplay because locks customers into the apple product line. It's a hardball tactic, but so long as it isn't illegal I guess you can't blame them. It's a hardball game. But at what point does it become an anti competitive tactic of a vertical monopolist?

I think the line is crossed when you use one unrelated product category to leverage another. Video sales are being used, via Fairplay DRM to lock users into buying hardware that has the same DRM.

Or am I mistaken? Can you download video from iTunes that will play on a non Apple device without breaking the DRM?

[bostlaw]

That's why I dumped Mac. I love the machines, but about twelve years ago when Windows got at least reasonable, I just had to dump Mac. I couldn't do most of my banking, certain online games, poker online, etc.., with my Mac and the emulator (sp>) came out, it just didn't cut the cheese. I've heard their is an emulator now that allows Mac to be used on Windows programs. If I knew it really worked great, I'd switch back on my next computer purchase. Mac sucks when you can't do everything Windows does, even though Mac is THE best. Just another hurdle for Mac people to jump, which just is too annoying.

After 20 some odd years using PCs, I switched to Mac...Because my law firm uses PCs exclusively (and I work a lot remotely from the house), I was nervous about the switch...and, I purchased Virtual PC to be able to run windows applications...Virtual PC runs just fine...but I find that I don't use it very often...Ain't nuthin' that I can't do on the Mac....and IMHO, I think the Microsoft Office suite is better on the Mac than it is on the PC... Can't watch me no TiVo on my iMac, but I ain't be switching back to the dark side anytime soon...

[jwedding]

I'm out. Called in and cancelled my service.

The lack of HDTV and Mac support along with the improved TV Guide Software on the Comcast/Moto 6412 boxes just did it for me.

Thank you all for the great tips, support and laughs over the past couple of years.

[Fofer]

I'm out. Called in and cancelled my service.

The lack of HDTV and Mac support along with the improved TV Guide Software on the Comcast/Moto 6412 boxes just did it for me.

Thank you all for the great tips, support and laughs over the past couple of years.


:(

At least stick around for your 100 post YAMM?


There's lots of fun to be had in the Happy Hour forum.



P.S. What kind of Mac support is on the Comcast/Moto 6412 box?

[jwedding]

There isn't any, but at least I'm not paying 12.95 for it. Even 6.95 seems silly for no real functionality.

Oh, and now I've hit the century mark! Woohoo!

[Dennis Wilkinson]

P.S. What kind of Mac support is on the Comcast/Moto 6412 box?

Video from non-encrypted channels (basic+extended analog, and the HD channels available over-the-air, usually) can be transferred over the Firewire connection to a Macintosh. This goes for recorded shows as well, but they must be playing to be transferred, tying up the box for the duration. There are tools to do this, which at last look weren't very pretty or usable by non-techies, and Apple's MPEG components occasionally can't play them (although MPlayer and VLC can.)

Not really Mac specific, and the level of "support" one would get from Comcast or Motorola on this would be, oh, about zero ;), but it is there (and required to be there by the FCC.)

See this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=353608) and/or this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=269141) over at AVS Forum for more info, if you want it.

[amgqmp1]

OK, just to get up-to-speed on this...it's the end of October 2005 and TiVo is still yet to release support for Mac OS X?

If my inquisitive statement above is correct...I'm literally speechless. After that I think I'd have only profane things to say...and my newest Mac is a PowerMac 7100! ;)

[cwoody222]

TiVo Desktop 1.9 (which was the pre-ToGo version) works with Tiger 10.2.x It didn't work with previous versions. But the installer fails - but it still works. But TiVo.com still hasn't updated with the new info.

TiVo has done absolutely nothing w/ ToGo for Mac since it came out for Windows in Jan/Feb.

[Fofer]

TiVo Desktop 1.9 (which was the pre-ToGo version) works with Tiger 10.2.x


I think you mean it works with Tiger 10.4.1, 10.4.2 (and later...?)

[cwoody222]

I meant Tiger 10.4.2. Oops.

But does it work with 10.4.1 too? I'm not sure, I'm still on 10.3.9.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

But does it work with 10.4.1 too? I'm not sure, I'm still on 10.3.9.

Not without help. It fails to register the service with Bonjour (Rendezvous), so your TiVo can't find it.

[tonyf3]

Actually, in point of fact, both Excel and GUI Word first appeared on the Mac.

Tony, what did you think about the comments about non standard support of mpeg2 in quicktime? Why can't quicktime just play vanilla mpeg2 files? Why should companies have to reencode their mpeg2 streams so they are quicktime compatible?

System support for multimedia seems to come up a little short as far as generic multimedia data types are concerned.

Hopefully the rumored future release of quicktime will provide the necessary mpeg2 support and Tivo files will then play ok on the mac.

As far as playing iTunes Video on Tivo, I don't think Jobs is interested in driving hardware sales that don't have an Apple logo on them. It is highly doubtful he will license Fairplay because locks customers into the apple product line. It's a hardball tactic, but so long as it isn't illegal I guess you can't blame them. It's a hardball game. But at what point does it become an anti competitive tactic of a vertical monopolist?

I think the line is crossed when you use one unrelated product category to leverage another. Video sales are being used, via Fairplay DRM to lock users into buying hardware that has the same DRM.

Or am I mistaken? Can you download video from iTunes that will play on a non Apple device without breaking the DRM?

Justin,
Lots of insightful info over your last few posts, thanks. I do think that Quicktime should be able to play vanilla mpeg2. I was hoping a while back (during the Apple TiVo purchase rumors) that Jobs would just buy TiVo and fix all the areas that TiVo was lacking in related to Mac. But it seems he's had other ideas. The AAC DRM still prevents you from playing ITMS purchased music through the TiVo. I've been tempted to just get an Airport Express with the cable kit and plug it into my Home Theater and call it a day, DRM solved. I'm pretty sure downloaded itms videos won't play on non Apple devices. As far as locking users into hardware via DRM. I think it was a move Apple had to make in order to keep the ipod viable into the future. The ARCOS player already does video. But it's really about making the content providers happy so they provide content for your hardware plattform.

[rworne]

Quicktime does support MPEG-2 playback. You need to buy the additional codec from the Apple store - it works in QT 6.0 and 7.0. It's $20 IIRC. If not, MplayerOSX and VLC play MPEG-2 nicely and freely.

[bedelman]

Quicktime does support MPEG-2 playback. You need to buy the additional codec from the Apple store - it works in QT 6.0 and 7.0. It's $20 IIRC.Yes, that's right -- but attempting to play a MPEG-2 derived from a TiVoToGo file doesn't play properly with the MPEG-2 Quicktime kit. It does play correctly with VLC though.

Something is different with either the QuickTime MPEG-2 kit or the MPEG-2 that's derived from a TiVoToGo file.

[Fofer]

Yes, that's right -- but attempting to play a MPEG-2 derived from a TiVoToGo file doesn't play properly with the MPEG-2 Quicktime kit. It does play correctly with VLC though.


On a Mac? Or a PC? Or both?

I ask because I have no direct experience with TiVoToGo.

But the MPEG-2 files that I derive from my DirecTiVo using <ahem> "alternate means" play juuuusssttt fine in QuickTime Player on my PowerBook, using the MPEG-2 Quicktime kit.




Hey, TiVo: when the hacking community, in it's free time, is able to deliver a more seamless, customer-pleasing solution that your own engineers do, I think it's time to start reevaluating your resources.

[Justin Thyme]

Tony, I agree. It's a business and they have to do what's in their best interest.

Despite the MO I have acquired on this thread, I sincerely am rooting for Apple to come out with an affordable and innovative DVR and compete in the third party DVR space. And I think it would be mistake to expect a me-too DVR list of features. There is a huge amount of very cool stuff that can be done with these devices that has not made it to the mainstream. I'll buy an Apple if it is less than $1200, though in all likelihood Jobs will not put a hardware stake in the ground until he can get enough compelling IPTV content that is at least SD quality lined up for iTunes store. Going too early can trap him with hardware legacy issues. Jobs is good at hitting waves just in time, so I am willing to wait.

I always thought the idea of Jobs buying Tivo was unlikely. Not his style and beside he doesn't need to buy Tivo because he can build share fast and has his own innovative engineering team- It's an advantage sure, but I don't see him paying a premium price against other bidders. The patent question is key but that could take years to resolve. It's much better for the industry if the court rules its patents must be respected, but does not rule that everyone building a DVR must pay Tivo a royalty. If that happens then very big guns will show up at the bidding table (Microsoft, Carriers, Content industry), and you can kiss Tivo as we know it goodbye. The competition will stagnate for years while the bidding winner squeezes consumers for as much as it can get using such patent leverage. Few people think that their patent portfolio are as overreaching as that, but the courts can always make surprizing rulings.

In any case, I personally doubt I will prefer the Apple DVR over the Tivo, but I am willing to give it a shot if it ever does show up.

[cwoody222]

Hey, TiVo: when the hacking community, in it's free time, is able to deliver a more seamless, customer-pleasing solution that your own engineers do, I think it's time to start reevaluating your resources.

Um, they are reevaluating their resources!

Remember just a few months ago they posted a whole 'help wanted' ad for a Mac developer! One whole job! Over 6 months after Windows got TiVo ToGo. (and years after the hackers were able to do it)

Obviously they're right on top of things.

:rolleyes:

[Justin Thyme]

...But the MPEG-2 files that I derive from my DirecTiVo using <ahem> "alternate means" play juuuusssttt fine in QuickTime Player on my PowerBook, using the MPEG-2 Quicktime kit.

Hey, TiVo: when the hacking community, in it's free time, is able to deliver a more seamless, customer-pleasing solution that your own engineers do, I think it's time to start reevaluating your resources. Let me see if I understand your proposal.

1) Tivo writes a program that produces an mpeg file.
2) User buys Mpeg2 quicktime kit.
3) User plays mpeg file in Quicktime.

Is that the suggestion you were describing?

[Fofer]

Let me see if I understand your proposal.

1) Tivo writes a program that produces an mpeg file.
2) User buys Mpeg2 quicktime kit.
3) User plays mpeg file in Quicktime.

Is that the suggestion you were describing?


No, not necessarily.

1) TiVo writes a program that produces an video file (mpeg? sure, I don't care.) Wrap in it crappy DRM for all I care.
2) TiVo writes a program that plays back said file.
3) User plays file with TiVo's player. (If VLC can do it without the Mpeg2 quicktime kit, then why can't TiVo's player?)

[Justin Thyme]

Not Necessarily? Is there even an infinitessimal possibility they could do that scenario of writing out a plain vanilla mpeg file?

So the only proposal you have put forth is that Tivo should write it's own player because Apple won't write a player that supports MPEG2 streams. Microsloth could do it, but Apple couldn't. It must be easy to do.

Apple must have been working real hard on MPEG2 rendering for the last decade.

Let's see. And how do we export to other devices? Since there are no system services supporting Mpeg2 and by extention our DRM'd .Tivo files, the next requirement would be that Tivo produce an export application to match the feature on Windows where you can export .tivo files to Media players like Creative Zen. It shouldn't be that hard to synchronize to phones, PDA's and Media players with widely differing resolutions and maximum bitrates.

Am I getting the drift of your suggestion?

[Fofer]

Am I getting the drift of your suggestion?

I guess I'm just not grokking why my hacked TiVo, along with TiVoTool, can give me MPEG-2 video that plays brilliantly on my PowerBook... but TiVo can't offer the same feature officially to their Mac customers.

I can play the video in the free, open-source VLC, or I can play it in QT Player if I add the MPEG-2 plugin.

I'm not a programmer. Please explain it to me like I'm a 10 year old.

[Justin Thyme]

I think you understand.

What you are playing in VLC or Quicktime is a standard Mpeg file.

If Tivo built an application that produced such an Mpeg file in your mac's folder, everything would work just as you say. People would be free to use VLC, or Quicktime with the Mpeg2 plugin or whatever.

And Tivo would be immediately bankrupted by lawsuits from MPAA.

Hackers can do this strategy because MPAA isn't going after them (for now).

[dropd]

And Tivo would be immediately bankrupted by lawsuits from MPAA.




Those lawsuits would verge on racketeering, I think.

Here's why: moving an mpeg from your tivo to your mac is not breaking the law. It's not a copyright violation. It's fair use. It's the equivalent of playing back a vhs cassette on a different vcr within your home. Copyright violation comes when you make copies of that mpeg (or vhs cassette, etc) and distribute them to others. Nobody on this board is talking about wanting to do that.

The problem is that the public has now conflated piracy with fair use, and consumers lose. The reason tivo doesn't just go ahead and do this isn't because they don't think they'd win on the merits, it's because the "content" industry has deeper pockets and is willing to intimidate technology companies into compliance.

Also, a minor quibble - they wouldn't be "immediately" bankrupted. It would take awhile. And maybe it takes a company like tivo to be willing to fight the battle and take it on the chin so the industry at large wins. Oh well. Replay sort of tried, but they did it stupidly. They also had features that specifically allowed random sharing between strangers over the internet. Oops. Tivo already restricts show-sharing to a subnet.

[cwoody222]

Those lawsuits would verge on racketeering, I think.

Here's why: moving an mpeg from your tivo to your mac is not breaking the law. It's not a copyright violation. It's fair use. It's the equivalent of playing back a vhs cassette on a different vcr within your home. Copyright violation comes when you make copies of that mpeg (or vhs cassette, etc) and distribute them to others. Nobody on this board is talking about wanting to do that.


Eh... to play a file on your mac requires we make a digital (ie: exact) copy of it so it would exist on the mac and on the TiVo.

That's what the MPAA lawyers would have a problem with.

[dropd]

Eh... to play a file on your mac requires we make a digital (ie: exact) copy of it so it would exist on the mac and on the TiVo.

That's what the MPAA lawyers would have a problem with.

Explain how that's different from ripping a cd that you own to put on your ipod...

[Justin Thyme]

First off, the studios hide behind the faceless MPAA organization that does it's dirty work. Let's be clear about who these chaps with the jackboots are. Its Bugs Bunny (Warner) and Mickey Mouse (Disney), and all the other studios who make our beloved movies and can't-miss-a-single-episode serials.

...moving an mpeg from your tivo to your mac is not breaking the law. It's not a copyright violation. It's fair use. It's the equivalent of playing back a vhs cassette on a different vcr within your home. Copyright violation comes when you make copies of that mpeg (or vhs cassette, etc) and distribute them to others. Nobody on this board is talking about wanting to do that.I am stunned the day has come, but I am in total agreement with you. I'll go further. Tivo and other companies are being made responsible for implementing security far in excess of what they require the distributors or other CE devices do. I can record to a dvd recorder and immediately rip that MPeg2 to hard drive. The content industry is not even requiring distributors to use CGMS flags on non broadcast content like discovery channel. Turning it on requires an $89 box, for cripesake. So if they aren't even bothering to put DRM on that, then why should Tivo be required to put thousands of man hours into DRM development?

I don't know if I would go to the "racketering" hyperbole, but the MPAA's activities are exceptionally unfair to technology innovators, and damage our nation's ability to compete effectively with CE devices in the world marketplace. Curbs must be placed on these excessive and futile tactics.

And ultimately they are ridiculous maneuvers. It is trivial for any hobbyist to work around the current schemes, and for more complicated schemes, there will always be heavyweights who don their masks and write up detailed step by step methods to bypass protection schemes that weekend hobbyists can take and use.

Fofer has benefitted from such an infrastructure of those who would dare modify the products they paid for. Technically, the hackers and disributors of the Mods that turn off scrambling in the Tivo are very likely in violation of the digital millenium act and could all be prosecuted. They are taking huge risks of their livelihood. What they get in exchange are often whining condescending complaints about this or that missing feature. Whatever.

It's a sucky way to do things on the Mac, but although no one is talking about sharing files on the net, there have been 50 million downloads of Bittorrent since 2003, and chances are quite a few of those users have Tivos and are reading this very thread. So like it or not, Tivo simply cannot drop an unprotected mpeg into a mac folder.

If they could write an DRM'd Mpeg format that Quicktime reads, that would be second best to having documented support for how one could write a .Tivo file format plug-in that provides an Mpeg2 compliant stream. Neither of those two options are available, Apple won't let third parties like Real Networks or anybody else use FairPlay. I expect that will have to change unless Apple intends to control all possible commercial video data sources on the Mac. On the other hand, I could be wrong and that is precisely Steve's intention. After all, content has made Apple buckets of cash. Why should Apple make it easily to steal away any of those revenue streams?

[cwoody222]

Explain how that's different from ripping a cd that you own to put on your ipod...

A very good point.

I guess one difference could be that I paid for my CD so I 'own' the music (do I? where do my rights end?). But the broadcast airways are different.

(at least according to the lawyers)

[rworne]

... Neither of those two options are available, Apple won't let third parties like Real Networks or anybody else use FairPlay...

Well the "wildly successful" ROKR phone plays iTunes songs w/fairplay. Motorola is a 3rd party. So it IS possible.

My theory is TiVo just bought a prepackaged solution to save time, money and effort. Microsoft was there to offer one. Microsoft also has no intention of letting others play with their DRM - unless it is tied in some way with Windows. MS is aggressively giving it to anyone that asks. Even so, the Windows Media Player for the Mac won't deal with Microsoft's DRM and always craps out when presented with these files.

[Justin Thyme]

You left out HP. The HP iPod also can also use Fairplay.

So sure, if you want to create a player with proprietary Apple technology only that is joined at the hip to iTunes, then no sweat, Apple will let you use their format.

Anyone else from music vendors like RealNetworks to Virgin Mega- forget it. Virgin even took Apple to court trying to get permission to create Fairplay files. I'm sure you remember that little dust up with Realnetworks with threats from Jobs that they would sue RealNetworks for making their songs compatible with Fairplay so that they would work on iPods.

Did you get that? Apple was going to sue an ISV for making their product compatible with an apple product.

Is life strange or what?

As for Microsoft's games with DRM- sure there are some pretty mind numbingly slimey moves they are doing to use their DRM to tie consumers to their platform. But this is not about who's wearing the white hat here. From where I stand, it looks like a dark shade of brown matter hanging off of both of the hats.

[bedelman]

On a Mac? Or a PC? Or both?On a Mac, but I was using files derived from TiVoToGo files

[Gunnyman]

On a Mac? Or a PC? Or both?

I ask because I have no direct experience with TiVoToGo.

But the MPEG-2 files that I derive from my DirecTiVo using <ahem> "alternate means" play juuuusssttt fine in QuickTime Player on my PowerBook, using the MPEG-2 Quicktime kit.




Hey, TiVo: when the hacking community, in it's free time, is able to deliver a more seamless, customer-pleasing solution that your own engineers do, I think it's time to start reevaluating your resources.

Most profound statement I have read in this thread
/salute Fofer.

[Gunnyman]

A very good point.

I guess one difference could be that I paid for my CD so I 'own' the music (do I? where do my rights end?). But the broadcast airways are different.

(at least according to the lawyers)
The broadcast airwaves are public though, so there should be no difference.
And the digital copy argument that MPAA likes to use doesn't hold water with Standalone Tivos because the content gets converted at least TWICE from the point it was broadcasted to the point where it gets extracted. Even DTV tivo recordings aren't perfect. Seems to me the MPAA should have tired harder to keep dvd recorders and blank DVD's of the market rather than screw with DRM and broadcast flags and what not if they were really concerned about piracy.

[gryhound]

Let me know how it works out with the cable company box when you try to:

a) Play music or view photos on it that are stored on your Mac

b) Get any kind of recorded content off of it

Duvs


Roku labs has it all figured out. Plus they support High Def tvs. You can stream all the media from your mac plus it has cool screen savers and art packs. rokulabs photobridge

[Fofer]

Roku labs has it all figured out. Plus they support High Def tvs. You can stream all the media from your mac plus it has cool screen savers and art packs. rokulabs photobridge

Great, only it's not a PVR.

So now I'd need to hook up a tuner/PVR to the Mac (like El Gato's EyeTV or Alchemy's new one) to actually GET content. Only they work on basic cable only... what if I need a cable box or want satellite?

Grr. You get my point?

[tonyf3]

The One Year Anniversary of the release of TiVo togo for Windows is coming up in about six weeks. I wonder if they ever hired anyone for their Mac Developer job? If they didn't... "working hard on it" rings more hollow than ever. 11+ months later, do they have any idea of when they can offer something of value to the Mac community. In Feb. TiVo desktop 1.9 will be a year old as well. When we reach the 18mo. mark, entire new desktop systems will have been developed and released, but no new offerings for TiVo's Mac users.

[cwoody222]

Hell, in one year they haven't even been able to produce a STATEMENT to the Mac community and you're hoping for actual working software?

Keep dreamin'...

[schalliol]

Sad indeed. I hope they'll surprise us at MacWorld San Francisco or something like that.

[magicalday]

Simple inexcusable on TiVo's part to not at least come clean on the status of Mac support.

[tonyf3]

Hell, in one year they haven't even been able to produce a STATEMENT to the Mac community and you're hoping for actual working software?

Keep dreamin'...


Chris,
True, but the comment was meant as a PSA reminder for the our friends at TiVo in case they forgot. One of our other options is TiVo Tool. Not for the faint of heart.
So the non-support milestone tweaking is a little easier.

[Quevar]

Just saw a link about TTG coming to iPod V's: http://www.latimes.com/business/custom/cotown/la-fi-tivo21nov21,0,1589292.story?coll=la-tot-promo&track=morenews

I'm wondering what impact this will have on TiVo supporting OS X. Supposedly, if they can convert the video into something that Apple's iPod can decode, that same video should be viewable in iTunes on both Windows and OS X.

There are two quotes that make me a little dubious of that though: TTG software "...enables some subscribers to transfer shows to a laptop or PC via a home network..." and "TiVo subscribers will need to purchase special software to tap the features, said Jim Denney, TiVo's vice president of product marketing."

I'm hoping this software they speak of is not something that uses the Direct Show filters to convert it into the iPod format because that would not benefit Macs at all. I wonder if it will be using Apple's DRM scheme? Only time will tell....

[schalliol]

Can I trade in my 45,000 TiVo referral points toward a Mac programmer salary?

[cwoody222]

My guess is it's going to be PC-only. So their "support" for iPod is going to leave out iPod's own makers' computers. And TiVo, once again, is going to ignore Mac users. And they're gonna look pretty dumb with "iPod support... only for Windows".

Go ahead TiVo... prove me wrong. I won't hold my breath.

[bostlaw]

My guess is it's going to be PC-only. So their "support" for iPod is going to leave out iPod's own makers' computers. And TiVo, once again, is going to ignore Mac users. And they're gonna look pretty dumb with "iPod support... only for Windows".

Go ahead TiVo... prove me wrong. I won't hold my breath.


Let's hope that you are wrong...although I tend to doubt it seriously... :(

[jalex]

This really is insulting news -- does anybody know? Is this the first entry into the iPod add-on market that only works if you use your iPod with a PC? MacNN provides another story (sorry, can't link). It mentions that each transfer will have a watermark that helps track down the account the recording came from. I'll bet the TiVo doesn't do the watermarking itself. I'll bet that's a function of the software you have to buy, and in that case, I'm sure it only works on Microsoft platforms.

For a company that has "grown up" being good to its customers (being open about hacking, communicative, etc), it's amazing how poorly they've handled their Mac audience. Maybe they'd get more users using TiVoToGo if they allowed those with a multimedia-oriented platform to use it.

For now, even though the interface and features are still junk, the Motorola DVR provided by Comcast (from which I could transfer video to my Mac) looks better and better.

I suppose I'd be more upset if TiVo were getting some sort of recurring revenue from me -- if I hadn't bought the lifetime subscription long enough ago that it has paid for itself and then some.

[jalex]

Looks like I can link now. Here's the MacNN story: http://www.ipodnn.com/news/05/11/21/tivo.adds.ipod.support/

[cwoody222]

This really is insulting news


That sums it up very well. They've moved beyond not-supporting and are not insulting us. "Oh, see that iPod made by Apple? We are making a brand new software update available exclusively with iPods... but only those who use Windows. You Apple freaks are left in the cold again. So, so sorry. But don't worry, we're working hard on it. No really. Super duper hard. We swear."

It's a joke.



I suppose I'd be more upset if TiVo were getting some sort of recurring revenue from me -- if I hadn't bought the lifetime subscription long enough ago that it has paid for itself and then some.

That's how I feel too. If I didn't have lifetime, it'd be a whole 'nother story.

[Jeffsters]

Tivo? iPod? I don't care!

I am just waiting for the right Tivo replacement and I am soooooooooooooooo gone! I'm going to ship them my three units with a note to stick them....

[Turtleboy]

Why are Mac people jumping to the conclusion that it won't be available for Macs? Tivo hasn't said anything yet.

Just seems like pointless whining at this point.

Wait till you have confirmatin before unleashing the full force of your virtriol

[cwoody222]

After a year of lies of omission, misleading statements, non-statements, and zero in the way of mac software development or support... I think we're fairly safe to assume nothing new will occur here.

As I said... prove me wrong TiVo...

[ZeoTiVo]

This really is insulting news -- does anybody know? Is this the first entry into the iPod add-on market that only works if you use your iPod with a PC? MacNN provides another story (sorry, can't link). It mentions that each transfer will have a watermark that helps track down the account the recording came from. I'll bet the TiVo doesn't do the watermarking itself. I'll bet that's a function of the software you have to buy, and in that case, I'm sure it only works on Microsoft platforms.

The same specualtaion could be that they are going to the watermark and thus bypass the DRM they are using now and finally open up TTG for the Mac. I am sure they would add the watermark as the file leaves the TiVo as that means you still have to hack the TiVo itself instead of the easier job of simply not using the software supplied for the PC.

again this is just speculation, just like the speculation it will be a windows only solution. There really is no public information on what this new desktop will entail.

you may now proceed to point out the track record that TiVo has severly abandoned Mac users in a vacuum of no updates and no info

[TheSlyBear]

The same specualtaion could be that they are going to the watermark and thus bypass the DRM they are using now and finally open up TTG for the Mac.

Wouldn't that be lovely.

If the watermark is sufficient "protection" for the iPod-extracted video, why not for desktop video as well? Unless, they're making a distinction between full-size and iPod-sized video (which would be silly, if you ask me).

Though, if this were to be the case, why not annouce it at the same time as the iPod capabilities and cause Mac users everywhere to rejoice?

[kongjie]

Last year, TiVo made available to all its Series2 subscribers the TiVoToGo feature. The TiVoToGo feature allows subscribers to transfer TV shows from their DVR to a laptop or PC over their home network. From the PC, subscribers can watch the shows, or transfer them to devices compatible with Microsoft Portable Media Center format. Today's announcement adds support for the Apple iPod and Sony PSP, as well as the ability to specify Season Pass™ recordings to conveniently transfer to the portable device via the PC overnight.

This is pretty hard to believe--they've completely left any mention of the Mac out of this announcement. And it's borderline deceptive: "all" Series2 subscribers don't have TiVoToGo--only PC-equipped subscribers have this benefit.

Does anyone else think this is BIZARRE?--that evidently Tivo is going to enable subscribers to view programs on their iPods...as long as they don't use Macs ?????

[iDriveX]

Every single news publication I have read (MacWorld, CNN, etc) has stated that today's announcement with be without Macintosh Support. Just for clarification.

[Turtleboy]

Every single news publication I have read (MacWorld, CNN, etc) has stated that today's announcement with be without Macintosh Support. Just for clarification.

Links?

Where did it specifically say that?

[kongjie]

The link at MacWorld isn't directly from them--it's from playlistmag.com: TiVo makes play for iPod, PSP, sans Mac (http://playlistmag.com/news/2005/11/21/tivo/index.php)

[rog]

Links?

Where did it specifically say that?

linked from MacWorld:

http://playlistmag.com/news/2005/11/21/tivo/index.php

"TiVo Inc.’s TiVoToGo service will soon allow users to convert video formatted for the video-capable Apple iPod and Sony’s PlayStation Portable... TiVoToGo is for Windows PCs only."

I think the operating assumption that this (and other articles) are making is that the new TiVo > iPod technology will be piggy-backed on the TiVoToGo/TiVoDesktop software... which we all know does not offer full Mac support.

-----

I think we can also assume that Mac support for this new functionality is not forthcoming, because TiVoPony has completely ignored requests for clarification in the main ToGo/iPod thread.

Also, why wouldn't they announce this within the larger announcement?

[rog]

Oh, this just in:

Regarding the Macintosh...

Yes, we intend to support it, but not in the February release. Macintosh support for the new features announced today is planned for mid-2006.

Pony

(edited for clarity)

A new time-estimate for Mac support; but note the specific wording "Macintosh support for the new features announced today." That statement clearly avoids the discussion of general TiVoDesktop/TiVoToGo Mac support.

[ZeoTiVo]

it will be an interesting year for TiVo desktop in 2006

[Dennis Wilkinson]

A new time-estimate for Mac support; but note the specific wording "Macintosh support for the new features announced today." That statement clearly avoids the discussion of general TiVoDesktop/TiVoToGo Mac support.

Getting encrypted TiVo-encrypted video to iPod-compatible video is a much simpler problem, taken by itself, than getting TiVo-encrypted video to play back nicely in QuickTime applications (and, given QuickTime's rather slow H.264 encode times, it's probably better to leave it out of the loop in any case.)

[hammer32]

There was this in the MacCentral Article (http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/11/21/tivointerview/index.php):

"Both Mac and Windows versions of TiVo Desktop software are available, though Mac-using TiVo subscribers have noted that the Mac software has languished. In fact, the currently available version — TiVo Desktop for Mac v1.9.1 — is not compatible with Mac OS X v10.4 “Tiger.”

The Macintosh development of the TiVoToGo product isn’t being held up because of that issue, said Denney. In fact, he said that a fix for the TiVo Desktop for Mac software should be released “imminently.”"

I like imminently. imminently makes me want to go home from work early. :D

[rog]

Also, I just found this (same?) article, which contains excerpts from an interview with TiVo's Vice President of Product Marketing:

http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/11/21/tivointerview/index.php

TiVoToGo enables users of some Microsoft Windows-equipped PCs and Windows-compatible portable media players to copy their shows onto their computers and portable devices. The company has promised a Macintosh version, which Denney indicated they’re still working on.

“We hope to have something in mid-2006,” he told MacCentral.

When pressed for more details, Denney added, “I would prefer to underpromise and overdeliver in this case. We haven’t set a date but we’re actively working on it.”

Ah... they've gone from "working hard on " to "[I]actively working on it." :rolleyes:

[hammer32]

Yup, that's the same article. The bit about imminently is at the very bottom (it'll look familiar, that's where we've been on the priority list :o ).

[Aeolius]

it will be an interesting year for TiVo desktop in 2006

If anyone has the patience to wait that long. Elgato is also working on video iPod support.

[cwoody222]

Oh, this just in:



A new time-estimate for Mac support; but note the specific wording "Macintosh support for the new features announced today." That statement clearly avoids the discussion of general TiVoDesktop/TiVoToGo Mac support.

I read it the same way. Pony (which I appreciate his response, ANY response) seemed to go out of his way to avoid any sort of mention of CURRENT ToGo features coming to Mac.

Just like their past comments have been very specifically worded. More "look at what we're NOT saying, 'cause we don't have the stones to give it to you Mac users straight".

Don't get me wrong, at least this is SOMETHING but until I get ALL of the features that Windows users get, I won't be happy.

[Bigg]

hey announced iPod video support. Shouldn't this play on a mac? Then a PC could just be a networked transcoder essentially. TiVo is not a lot higher resolution than iPod video, and basic quality screws it up more than a good off-line video encode. Those xViDs they do online are amazing... 174MB 22 minutes semi-HDTV.

EDIT: Heck, you could "burn to a DVD" and select a virtual DVD drive, then write to an ISO and mount it on the MAC.

[kongjie]

Ah... they've gone from "working hard on " to "[I]actively working on it." :rolleyes:

If they continue at this pace, we might get something functional before those newfangled neural broadcast reception chips get implanted in our brains.

[cwoody222]

Whoa... TWO positive statements from Pony in one day!

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3487497&&#post3487497

[Babasyzygy]

Three years ago, I'm deciding whether to stay with TiVo. I'm in middle of converting my huge CD library (1700+ CDs) to digital on my Macs, and want to use (unprotected) AACes.

TiVo tells me that they're working hard on supporting AAC in the HMO (which I paid for, feeling like a fool when they made it free) and that support should be coming within a matter of months. So I start on the project, and stay with TiVo, eventually buying a couple of Pioneer DVD-R/RW TiVos.

And nothing changes.

There is NO excuse for not supporting unprotected AACs on the HMO. The code is available for free on-line, and the TiVos certainly have enough processing power to play them. The only reason there can be for TiVo not supporting AACs is that they simply don't care to.

In the mean time, I converted some of my collection to MP3 and used TiVoDesktop. Which now, for some unknown reason, goes wild and eats all of the host Mac's CPU. Maybe a newer version would fix it, maybe not. TiVo doesn't care about keeping me as a customer.

I've even gone so far as to buy an ElGato EyeTV 500, but the integration with the (very poor) directory data is so poor as to be unusable. And that really underscores the only thing of value that TiVo has left to it, over homebrew solutions - the high quality directory guide (but not so high quality that it will support part-time channels, like cable channel 51 here that is CSPAN from 8am to 8pm and VH-1 the remaining hours).

I'll believe Mac support when I see it, and then I won't believe that I won't be abandoned. I can only hope that Apple does come up with a DVR solution (you can bet it would have good directory data), instead of solely relying upon an iTunes Music Store pay-for-distribution model.

[Fofer]

Three years ago, I'm deciding whether to stay with TiVo. I'm in middle of converting my huge CD library (1700+ CDs) to digital on my Macs, and want to use (unprotected) AACes.

TiVo tells me that they're working hard on supporting AAC in the HMO (which I paid for, feeling like a fool when they made it free) and that support should be coming within a matter of months.


Dude, I've had AAC (unprotected) working for a while now, thanks to this discovery by our own Dennis Wilkinson:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2608116&&#post2608116

Still works with Tiger, iTunes 6, etc. Check it out!

[rog]

Yeah, I play unprotected AAC files from my iTunes library (stored on my iBook) on my TiVo all the time, using the official TiVoDesktop software for Macs.

The functionality isn't published. Hell, the installer for TiVoDesktop even crashes during the install. But it all works anyway. All you need to do is ignore the crash, make sure the firewall on your Mac isn't blocking TiVoDesktop, and install LAME...

AAC's will play on the TiVo! :)

[Unix_Beard]

Doesn't the AAC get converted to something before playback? Kind of defeats the point. I just go with 256kbps MP3s.

[gonzotek]

Doesn't the AAC get converted to something before playback? Kind of defeats the point. I just go with 256kbps MP3s.
It's converted on-the-fly to a high-quality mp3, via LAME. The original file on the hard drive will remain an unmodified AAC.

[Unix_Beard]

It's converted on-the-fly to a high-quality mp3, via LAME. The original file on the hard drive will remain an unmodified AAC.

So the file undergos two lossy conversions? Once when ripped to AAC and another mp3 conversion. The marginal savings in disk space doesn't seem worth it to me.

[rog]

So the file undergos two lossy conversions? Once when ripped to AAC and another mp3 conversion. The marginal savings in disk space doesn't seem worth it to me.

So just rip your tunes to mp3 in the first place... I'm not sure I understand your complaint.

The original poster for this mini-thread here wanted to be able to play his unprotected AAC files on his TiVo. He can, with no extra work involved on his part. You don't have to do the same. :)

[megazone]

So the file undergos two lossy conversions? Once when ripped to AAC and another mp3 conversion. The marginal savings in disk space doesn't seem worth it to me.Where marginal can be 50% - AAC is a much better codec than MP3, 128kbps AAC is usually quite enough for good quality, while you'd need 192-256kbps MP3 for the same reproduction. Since I have over 12,000 tracks, all 128kbps AAC (and all legal, most ripped from my CDs, the others via iTunes - and JHymn'd), it uses about 44GB. I can fit all my music on a 60GB iPod, I couldn't if I'd used MP3. The larger the collection, the more it matters.

Unfortunately, since I'm on Windows, the LAME trick isn't viable.

[MediaDog]

To TiVo beta manager,

I am a long time (read since TiVo year 1) faithful TiVo owner.

I currently have a TiVo Series 2 160HR (among others) and also have:

New iPod with Video (60GB)
New iMac G5 2Ghz (with 10.4 and a second drive with 10.3)
Fairly New Windows XP Pro system (2.7Ghz)
Broadband Cable service @ 3Mbs.
I use the current TiVo-to-go software

And I would love to be considered for your alpha/beta testing of TiVo-To-Go for iPod with video use.

I have been a TiVo beta tester in the past (many years ago), and would love to be one again.

I have kept my 'application' for beta status at the TiVo Website up to date, but it does not offer an option for me to tell you that I am also an iPod with Video owner.

So... if your reading this =) please consider me, or at least have someone update the TiVo Beta form on the website so we can update it and be considered thru normal channels.

I can be contacted at: andrew 'at' merlinmedia 'dot' com

Thanks,

MediaDog

PS. This is a first post under this new ID, I have long since forgotten my original login to the TiVo community forums from back in the early years.

[Unix_Beard]

So just rip your tunes to mp3 in the first place... I'm not sure I understand your complaint.


I have no complaint. I already noted that I do indeed rip everything to 256kbps mp3. :)

I was merely inquiring why you would rip your collection of CDs to AAC and then complain about Tivo not supporting the format. Recommendations were given for the LAME solution and I gave a practical opinion. If Tivo is your primary target device (or secondary even) then not only does the device not support it but the presented solution (LAME) further compresses an already compressed file.

Why not demand support of FLAC as well?

When I set upon the mission of ripping my CDs, I decided to use the most ubiquitous file format out there. Its one of those things you only do once or twice. The previous poster made a good point about AAC - his target device is his iPod so it makes sense to maximize the utility for that device.

[rworne]

To TiVo beta manager,
..snippage...


Don't get your hopes up, and don't beg. :) I got a beta invite a couple of months ago and after responding I got... Nada. Zip. Nan de mo nai.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

The previous poster made a good point about AAC - his target device is his iPod so it makes sense to maximize the utility for that device.

I think that's the crux of the discussion right there. You want to encode your music optimally for wherever you listen to it most, but you still want to be able to listen to it in other places as well. For me, even with my iPod being my primary listening device, 256kbps MP3 is the best option since storage isn't an issue (60GB iPod only half full with my entire collection on it at that rate.) For others, I can see how AAC makes sense, and why they'd still like to be able to use the same files with their TiVos.

[Babasyzygy]

Dude, I've had AAC (unprotected) working for a while now, thanks to this discovery by our own Dennis Wilkinson:

(URL removed because I'm still a new poster)

Still works with Tiger, iTunes 6, etc. Check it out!

That's cool and interesting for the hack value, but pretty useless as a sound source. Double lossy compression is not a step forward. On the other hand - I also store the AIFFs (thank god for external firewire drive towers), so perhaps something could be done with this that would only use one layer of lossy compression.

Plus, as I wrote, TiVoDesktop goes wild on my machines... maybe because of the size of my library (roughly 1600 CDs ripped to date). After about 6 hours it starts eating all of the CPU and almost freezes the machines up... I've tried this on multiple machines ( 2 minis and a G4 tower, with the same library) and it seems to be consistent. It works until that point, but it's useless if I have to manually start it every time I want to use it.

I've called TiVo, but they just shrug and blow me off when I say I'm using 10.4. Too bad there's no avenue of support for Mac users.

[Babasyzygy]

Why not demand support of FLAC as well?


That would be very nice, but I'd settle for AIFF or WAV, those being much more standard lossless formats.

And also... TiVo promised AAC support when I talked to them, in a reasonable time frame (three years ago). I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for anything they haven't mentioned.

I'm a big-time TiVo user - I have three in my house, bought my mother one and my brother two. But the failure to integrate with Mac-based homes makes me want to jump ship as soon as I can - hell, they could just support external Mac developers to do the work for free! I know I'd gladly donate the coding time, and most of the developers I know are also TiVo fans...

The only reason I'm holding on now is that two of my TiVos are DVR-810Hs... but let me tell you, the fact that I can't burn DVDs of shows transferred from another of my TiVos (same model) really pisses me off.

[Fofer]

But the failure to integrate with Mac-based homes makes me want to jump ship as soon as I can

Whaddya mean? What can PC users do that a Mac user (with an adequately hacked box) can't do?

Hell, at this point considering all the hassles on the PC side I think I'd prefer the Mac avenue. Faster download time, no DRM...

[tonyf3]

Back to the ipod Video announcement, and thoughts and Questions on how it might connect to TiVo.
1. Is it an update to TiVo desktop that uses itunes as the conduit for Videos?
aka itunes videos.
2. Do we connect the ipod directly to the USB port on the back of the TiVo?
3. Are they bypassing Quicktime for this?
4. What about their Directshow DRM and Windows Media 10?

This is just what comes to mind on the subject of connectivity.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Back to the ipod Video announcement, and thoughts and Questions on how it might connect to TiVo.
1. Is it an update to TiVo desktop that uses itunes as the conduit for Videos?
aka itunes videos.
2. Do we connect the ipod directly to the USB port on the back of the TiVo?
3. Are they bypassing Quicktime for this?
4. What about their Directshow DRM and Windows Media 10?

This is just what comes to mind on the subject of connectivity.

#1 is unclear, but seems like a reasonable guess.

#2 is almost certainly NOT the case. It would require the TiVo to do the transcode to H.264 or basic MPEG-4, which it's not suited for.

#3 is also not clear. Strictly for TiVo-to-iPod, Quicktime wouldn't necessarily be the best approach, but seeing as how Pony claims full TTG support is coming, I'd guess that they're only bypassing QuickTime if they had to.

#4 Their DRM may be implemented on Windows as a DirectShow filter, but it's not doing anything DirectShow specific (beyond "glue"-type stuff.) The same algorithm can be packaged any number of ways, so I don't think that DirectShow or WM10 will figure in at all in a Mac implementation. For example, MPEG2 decompression can be implemented as a DirectShow filter, but MPEG2 isn't algorithmically bound to DirectShow -- same idea.

[tonyf3]

Thanks Dennis for all the info and support you've given to this thread over the past year.

On a separate note, I recently encountered a TiVo networking issue that I can't figure out.
My original 3 year old 60 hr TiVo died (Hard Drive), and was replaced with an new 80hr, by TiVo no less. I went through all the guided setups, system updates etc.

2 issues:
1. the "https://xx.x.x.x/nowplaying/index.html" unsupported feature doesn't work on the new TiVo, I checked the IP. The weird part is I can hit my other 40hr this way with no problem.
So I'm at a loss as to why.
2.TiVo to TiVo transfers are now ridiculously slow.

Software version 7.2.1
TiVo desktop 1.9.1
OSX 10.3.9

[Dennis Wilkinson]

2 issues:
1. the "https://xx.x.x.x/nowplaying/index.html" unsupported feature doesn't work on the new TiVo, I checked the IP. The weird part is I can hit my other 40hr this way with no problem.
So I'm at a loss as to why.
2.TiVo to TiVo transfers are now ridiculously slow.

#1 is strange, since you say you're doing transfers (meaning you have transfers enabled for HMO.) If you turn on Bonjour in Safari, does that TiVo show up? If so, can you replace the http with https in the URL, and add in the nowplaying, and see if that works? The difference here is that the address you'd be using will be on a link-local subnet. Might make a difference, might not. Are you using the same adapter as on your old unit?

#2 might, unfortunately, be expected. I have both an "old" (240-type) Series 2 and a Toshiba DVD combo unit, and the network performance on the DVD unit (which has a lot in common with the new, 540-type Series 2 units) is noticeably worse.

[rog]

#2 might, unfortunately, be expected. I have both an "old" (240-type) Series 2 and a Toshiba DVD combo unit, and the network performance on the DVD unit (which has a lot in common with the new, 540-type Series 2 units) is noticeably worse.

Yes, TiVoBill among countless other posters has confirmed that the newest 540 series 2 units are exceptionally slow with TiVoToGo transfers... something about the cheaper hardware in the 540 (cheaper components were used to cut down on the cost of producing the series 2 boxes) causing a bottleneck...

[tonyf3]

Yes, TiVoBill among countless other posters has confirmed that the newest 540 series 2 units are exceptionally slow with TiVoToGo transfers... something about the cheaper hardware in the 540 (cheaper components were used to cut down on the cost of producing the series 2 boxes) causing a bottleneck...

Actually this was just a TiVo to TiVo transfer. Not a TiVo togo download.

[rog]

Actually this was just a TiVo to TiVo transfer. Not a TiVo togo download.

Oh, sorry, I missed that. Unfortunately, the same still applies. I could have more clearly said, "540 series 2 units are exceptionally slow with network transfers."

The bottleneck is there either way. :(

[Quevar]

(Confidential to my Mac buddies: I know, I know. But this announcement, while still PC-specific, bodes very well. Hang in there—we are targeting mid-2006 for Mac support for TivoToGo™!)
I just read that in the TiVo newsletter. It is official - Mac support for TTG in mid-2006 (at least, that is the target). Not a very near target and it only took them 11 months to finally get this information to us, but we do have something official to look forward to. Right about when I had completely given up....

[cwoody222]

Argh, have I magically fallen off the TiVo newsletter subscription again?!?!

Still good news, though. But still horrible that it took them this long to make an official announcement.

[tonyf3]

I just read that in the TiVo newsletter. It is official - Mac support for TTG in mid-2006 (at least, that is the target). Not a very near target and it only took them 11 months to finally get this information to us, but we do have something official to look forward to. Right about when I had completely given up....

When I saw this yesterday, I thought Ahha!, They're actually mentioning the Mac Users in the Newsletter and where the support stands. Finally some concrete info and dates. I wonder if they've been scanning this thread? That was the point all along.

[tonyf3]

Oh, sorry, I missed that. Unfortunately, the same still applies. I could have more clearly said, "540 series 2 units are exceptionally slow with network transfers."

The bottleneck is there either way. :(


Damn!
Would this explain why the series 2 40hr I have can still be hit via the http://00.0.0.0/nowplaying/index.html and not the 80hr. Or do you think it's something else. The old 60hr was a 140 box and I could connect to it fine. Not that it does me any good since I still can't convert the .tivo file.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Damn!
Would this explain why the series 2 40hr I have can still be hit via the http://00.0.0.0/nowplaying/index.html and not the 80hr. Or do you think it's something else.

I think it's most likely something else. Slow is one thing; not working is something else.

I assume you've tried the standard "reboot both machines" troubleshooting? I vaguely recall there being an issue about the service being started up if the adapter wasn't connected at boot time.

If you include Bonjour in your Safari bookmarks menu/bar, does that see the TiVo?

[Justin Thyme]

Damn!
Would this explain why the series 2 40hr I have can still be hit via the http://00.0.0.0/nowplaying/index.html and not the 80hr. Or do you think it's something else. The old 60hr was a 140 box and I could connect to it fine. Not that it does me any good since I still can't convert the .tivo file.I think Rog was refering to the difference between a 240xxxxxx family versus the 540xxxxx family which is based on the Broadcom chips that experience the USB bottleneck. So if both of yours are in the same series, then this factor has nothing to do with it. Besides- the slowdown is not gigantic. I definately notice my 240 is swifter with TTG and MRVs but it can't be much more than 25%. Someone did some soap box derby trials a while back so there are some real numbers floating around.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

I think Rog was refering to the difference between a 240xxxxxx family versus the 540xxxxx family which is based on the Broadcom chips that experience the USB bottleneck. So if both of yours are in the same series, then this factor has nothing to do with it. Besides- the slowdown is not gigantic. I definately notice my 240 is swifter with TTG and MRVs but it can't be much more than 25%. Someone did some soap box derby trials a while back so there are some real numbers floating around.

That's the thing, though -- he went from two 240-series units to one 240 and one 540,
which is when he noticed the slowdown. I don't expect that the "can't see Now Playing via https" issue he also sees is related.

[tonyf3]

That's the thing, though -- he went from two 240-series units to one 240 and one 540,
which is when he noticed the slowdown. I don't expect that the "can't see Now Playing via https" issue he also sees is related.

I have a 4 port Linksys extending the wired portion of my network to the 240 tivo.
It my have a bad cable. However, if you're pulling from the 540 at the 240, transfer time is decent. But when you're pulling from the 240 at the 540 it's about 5min for every 1min of recording time to transfer. The nowplaying via IP not working to the 540 still has me at a loss since it does see itunes & iphoto lists.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

I have a 4 port Linksys extending the wired portion of my network to the 240 tivo.
It my have a bad cable. However, if you're pulling from the 540 at the 240, transfer time is decent. But when you're pulling from the 240 at the 540 it's about 5min for every 1min of recording time to transfer. The nowplaying via IP not working to the 540 still has me at a loss since it does see itunes & iphoto lists.

That sounds unusual to me -- I've get a 240 and a 565 (same basic hardware as the 540, but it's a DVD recorder) and I don't think I've ever seen the transfers go that slowly between the two (although they are attached to the same wired switch.) I can still get just about real-time transfers of best-quality recordings. If you do suspect a bad cable, I'd swap it out and see if that helps, but those speeds sound way off.

I'd also pull down a copy of Bonjour Browser, and check that you see entries for each TiVo under ._tivo_videos._tcp and HTTP (._http._tcp). If either are missing (I'd guess one of the HTTP entries may be) I'd restart the appropriate TiVo.

[tonyf3]

That sounds unusual to me -- I've get a 240 and a 565 (same basic hardware as the 540, but it's a DVD recorder) and I don't think I've ever seen the transfers go that slowly between the two (although they are attached to the same wired switch.) I can still get just about real-time transfers of best-quality recordings. If you do suspect a bad cable, I'd swap it out and see if that helps, but those speeds sound way off.

I'd also pull down a copy of Bonjour Browser, and check that you see entries for each TiVo under ._tivo_videos._tcp and HTTP (._http._tcp). If either are missing (I'd guess one of the HTTP entries may be) I'd restart the appropriate TiVo.


Thanks Dennis. I downloaded Bonjour Browser, and they both show up. Except _tivo-videos._tcp. -2. Appears twice with the same info. The http as one.

[tonyf3]

Dennis,
Bonjour Browser is also showing the 80hr as having the following software ver.
swversion=7.2.1-oth-01-2-140

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Tony,

I'm reasonably sure that the ._tivo-videos._tcp and _tivo_videos._tcp are just a backwards-compatibility thing (note the hypen v. the underscore). It's just two Bonjour registrations of the same service with different service names. When you say:

The http as one.

do you mean that only one TiVo shows up under the HTTP entry, or that you see only one HTTP entry with both TiVos listed (as opposed to the _tivo_videos/_tivo-videos thing)?

Does that "7.2.1-oth-01-2-140" match the version in the System Information screen? I'm not sure, but I don't think that's the right version for a 540 unit (although I'd expect a LOT more issues with the wrong software installed.) It would be the right version for your 240 (the 40 hour, right?) since the last few digits as of version 7.something no longer correspond exactly (the 140 and 240 series units, at least, share a build now.)

[tonyf3]

Dennis,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I've been a little busy. As always I really appreciate the in-depth info. For now I'm going to wait till after the Mac World Keynote on Jan, 10th, to see what new offerings Apple has that will fill this void.

I'm thinking Mac Mini DVR with Frontrow 2.0, all appropriate Video I/O connections and an ipod Video dock. Maybe even wireless.

Tony

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0511macmini2.html
http://www.macworldexpo.com/live/20/events/20SFO06A/keynotes

[tonyf3]

Also,
In case I miss read earlier info on TiVo ToGo finally supporting Mac, I think we're talking June. Right?
If the Mac Mini DVR thing happens they'll be 6 months behind. Well, actually 2 1/2 years from the original announcement. But hey, who's counting.

[Gunnyman]

Dennis,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, I've been a little busy. As always I really appreciate the in-depth info. For now I'm going to wait till after the Mac World Keynote on Jan, 10th, to see what new offerings Apple has that will fill this void.

I'm thinking Mac Mini DVR with Frontrow 2.0, all appropriate Video I/O connections and an ipod Video dock. Maybe even wireless.

Tony

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0511macmini2.html
http://www.macworldexpo.com/live/20/events/20SFO06A/keynotes
If it has cable card I am SOOOOO there.

[tonyf3]

If it has cable card I am SOOOOO there.

Gunnyman,
In my mind I'm already gone.
(Cosmo Kramer)

[tonyf3]

Wide screen ipod video

http://guides.macrumors.com/Image:Videoipodfake_3.jpg

[tonyf3]

Well, MacWorld SF didn't have the rumored Mac Mini PVR. Damn!, I now here Sept. is more likely. So it looks like June for TiVo ToGo support for Mac. Happy New Year, let's hope TiVo gets it done, and done right.

[cheezus]

Well, you can add me to the list of pissed-off Mac users. What bothers me the most is that there's no TECHNOLOGICAL reason for a .tivo file decoder on OS X -- it's all political.

[gonzotek]

What bothers me the most is that there's no TECHNOLOGICAL reason for a .tivo file decoder on OS X -- it's all political.What's your source for this? An experienced Mac OS quicktime developer on the forum has stated, as opinion, that Apple's MPEG2 decoder is poorly documented and not very robust, and that might be a technological reason why there is still no Mac TTG.

[cheezus]

So why the need to use quicktime mpeg2? Plenty of people have reported playback through VLC on windows works just fine... it's the drm in the tivo/windowsmedia/directshow dll that tivo provides that makes the difference. How hard could it be for tivo to write an implimentation of their drm on another platform?

[gonzotek]

VLC isn't a commercial product. It would cost TiVo money to provide an mpeg2 decoder in their product. This is believed to be the same reason that the psp/ipod feature coming will need to be purchased:http://www.tivo.com/cms_static/press_66.html
Subscribers will need to purchase certain low-cost software to facilitate the transfer of content from the PC to these portable devices. To discourage abuse or unlawful use of this feature, TiVo intends to employ "watermark" technologies on programs transferred to a portable device using the TiVo ToGo feature that would enable tracking of the account from which a transferred program originated.
Also, I'm 99% sure that VLC on Windows or any platform will only play tivo content after the file has been freed of drm, and is, for all intents and purposes, an mpeg2 file. VLC does not use the directshow filter system for file playback, although it can capture video from hardware(camera, tuner card, etc.) using that portion of DS.

To answer the question about how hard it would be to write the drm for another platform, I honestly couldn't say. They know how to encrypt it under a rather unique Linux platform, and how to decrypt it in a modern Windows environment, so I'm guessing they have a pretty good idea of what it takes to handle that part.

Don't get the idea I'm apologizing for TiVo, I think they've made more than one mistake with regards to Mac support. They didn't have simultaneous(or even close) releases, and then they stonewalled on the issue for too long. They could at least have been more forthcoming about the problem and/or its planned resolution.

[smoothster]

TivoTool works well for me if you have superpatch installed you just need to install the vserever. everything is located here

tivotool.com

[cheezus]

VLC isn't a commercial product. It would cost TiVo money to provide an mpeg2 decoder in their product.

TiVo doesn't seem to have problems using Free software (linux kernel for example), so how about libmpeg2 http://libmpeg2.sourceforge.net/ -- it's GPL

Playing the mpeg2 file is no problem at all -- after all, there are plenty of reports in this thread of people using directshowdump on windows and moving un-drmed mpeg file over to the mac. And like you said, TiVo already implimented the drm on one unix-like platform, as well as windows. I don't see the technological hangup of bringing this to OS X.

[cheezus]

Looks like I have the Series 2.5 tivo (model TCD540....) which is unhackable. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=254550&highlight=540

so... looks like I'm just SOL. I guess I should have done better research before buying. I was just so impressed by the Series1 I used to have that I figured I should go for it. Now I wish I just had my series1 box back...

[gonzotek]

TiVo doesn't seem to have problems using Free software (linux kernel for example), so how about libmpeg2 http://libmpeg2.sourceforge.net/ -- it's GPL

Playing the mpeg2 file is no problem at all -- after all, there are plenty of reports in this thread of people using directshowdump on windows and moving un-drmed mpeg file over to the mac. And like you said, TiVo already implimented the drm on one unix-like platform, as well as windows. I don't see the technological hangup of bringing this to OS X.2 words: Patents and Licensing
http://www.mpegla.com/m2/m2-agreement.cfm

If TiVo could just hook into the mpeg2 decoder provided by Apple, they could avoid the fee (but that would still require the seperate purchase of the Apple decoder by the user AND that the Apple decoder could actually do the job). This is what happens on Windows now, if you don't have an mpeg2 decoder that supports the specific flavor of mpeg2 in .tivo files, you have to purchase one or find a 'free' one(just because you can obtain it from a reputable download site, even if it's open source doesn't make it 100% legal). If TiVo, Inc. has to provide one as part of their distributed package, it would require both additional development time and, I would imagine dealing with the licensing issue may be a hold up as well.

[cheezus]

2 words: Patents and Licensing

Ah, interesting. Then again, the royalty is only $2.50 -- I'd pay that. :)

[rog]

Looks like I have the Series 2.5 tivo (model TCD540....) which is unhackable.

It's not "unhackable".

The TCD540*'s can be modified to allow for the extraction of video, but it requires a hardware hack, not just a software modification. Specifically, you have to "socket the PROM" -- replace the PROM chip on the motherboard with a modified version.

It's harder than modifying a Series I, no doubt, but hardly "unhackable".

[tonyf3]

If it has cable card I am SOOOOO there.

Speaking of cable card ports...
I'm assuming everyone has seen the Series 3 pics. If not, here are the links to the front and back from CES. Courtesy Megazone.


http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/Series3-front-1.JPG

http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/Series3-back-1.JPG

http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/

[megazone]

And more: http://www.tivolovers.com/252572.html

[rog]

Guess what kids?

TiVoDesktop for Mac OS X (10.4 Tiger) is finally out:

http://www.tivo.com/4.9.4.1.asp

TiVoDesktop version 1.9.2 adds official support for Tiger and apparently includes some stability enhancements. It does *not* offer TiVoToGo functionality at this time, but it's a start.

A bit overdue, I'd say, but still great news! :)

[Aeolius]

A bit overdue, I'd say, but still great news!

Unless you have an Intel iMac or a MacBook Pro...as the new TiVo Desktop apparently does not work on Intel Macs. My new house will be finished in July. I hope either the Series 3 with full Mac support, or the Apple-branded equivalent DVR, is out by then. My TiVos are collecting dust in a closet, as we speak.

I don't ask for much; just a TiVo that works as well as my SA 8300, or a SA 8300 that has TiVo's interface, with full support for current and Intel Macs, of course. ;)

Granted, Disney is dusting off their MovieBeam (http://www.moviebeam.com/) offering; and now Apple's CEO is on the board at Disney...hrmmm

[cheezus]

Yep. For some reason TiVo Desktop is implemented as a pref pane, which can't run in Rosetta (the PowerPC->Intel translator). Not confirmed, but Galleon should still work.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Yep. For some reason TiVo Desktop is implemented as a pref pane, which can't run in Rosetta (the PowerPC->Intel translator). Not confirmed, but Galleon should still work.

TiVo Desktop has a preference pane, but the piece that does the heavy lifting is not (if it were a preference pane, you could run it under Rosetta by forcing the System Preferences application to run under Rosetta, selectable under the Get Info window for the application.)

The real problem is that the TiVo Desktop server (look in /Library/Application Support/TiVo) is a Java application that relies on JNI (Java Native Interface) files. Java cannot be run under emulation, so any JNI files need to be available for the flavor of processor you actually have.) Those files need to be rebuilt as universal.

Regardless, TiVoPony stated in another thread earlier today that the Intel build is expected in 6-8 weeks. Speaking as a Mac developer, I know that TiVo wasn't the only company that hadn't got things moved over to Mac OS X Intel when Apple pulled their "6 months ahead of schedule" bit at Macworld this year...

[tonyf3]

Was expecting a little more out of the Mac mini announcement. Like a Mac Mini DVR with TiVo like software. Oh well. Guess I'll just wait till June for TTG 2.0 for Mac.
(June would be mid 2006)

http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/28/live-from-the-steve-jobs-keynote-fun-new-products/

[jshaffernc]

Mac? What's a Mac?

[tonyf3]

Mac? What's a Mac?

That doesn't even warrant a real response.
"Welcome to the party Pal" ignorance is bliss I guess:cool:

[tonyf3]

MacWorld article on Mac support subject. Says mid 2006.
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/11/21/tivointerview/index.php

Megazone Pics of TiVo ToGo / TiVo Desktop for Mac from CES. Internal release ver 2.0a3.

http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/TTG-Mac-5.JPG
http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/TTG-Mac-1.JPG
http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/TTG-Mac-2.JPG
http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/TTG-Mac-6.JPG

So I guess you could say they've done something, it's only taken them over a year.
But who's counting, I'm just glad it actually exists.

[tonyf3]

While we're all waiting for the TiVo ToGo Mac saga to continue.....
Does anyone know what happened to the Netflix download your movies to TiVo deal, announced last year. I heard it was dead, but not why. Alot of companies are talking about offering this model now.

http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news.php?newsId=2890

[jshaffernc]

I don't quite get it. Tivo is the definition of open architecture. Witness this forum. Thousands have "hacked" into the box and made it better. Still, the Tivo software itself adds value.

By contrast, Mac is the ultimate in proprietary, closed architecture. You must conform to strict, relatively high-level APIs to play with Mac, and so there is little software for the Mac. It has a niche in publishing and graphic arts thanks to its unique and easy-to-use user interface. Just remember, that unique and easy-to-use closed user interface is the reason you're not seeing the software you're waiting for.

Can't have it both ways.

Jim

[mportuesi]

By contrast, Mac is the ultimate in proprietary, closed architecture. You must conform to strict, relatively high-level APIs to play with Mac, and so there is little software for the Mac. It has a niche in publishing and graphic arts thanks to its unique and easy-to-use user interface. Just remember, that unique and easy-to-use closed user interface is the reason you're not seeing the software you're waiting for.


The Windows platform and APIs are every bit as closed as Apple, yet TiVoToGo has been available on Windows for quite some time.

In fact, it is the closed nature of the Windows platform (the DirectShow DRM technology) which explains the lack of TTG on the Mac in the first place.

No, this is simply TiVo treating Mac owners as second-class citizens.

[Dan203]

Man you Mac guys are a sensative bunch. I can guarantee you that if TiVo could have had a Mac version of TTG available at launch they would have. Unfortunately Windows developers out number Mac developers by about 1000 to 1, so it's a lot harder to find a team of Mac developers capable of making TTG work on OSX then it is to find a team to make it work on Windows. In fact TiVo has had a job posting on their website for Mac developers for a couple of years now, which proves that their Mac development team is under staffed.

Dan

[TydalForce]

The Windows platform and APIs are every bit as closed as Apple, yet TiVoToGo has been available on Windows for quite some time.

In fact, it is the closed nature of the Windows platform (the DirectShow DRM technology) which explains the lack of TTG on the Mac in the first place.

No, this is simply TiVo treating Mac owners as second-class citizens.

When every copy of Windows includes a world-class development environment like Apple's Xcode and runs on an open-source Unix foundation, I may begin to accept your argument.

[tonyf3]

Man you Mac guys are a sensative bunch. I can guarantee you that if TiVo could have had a Mac version of TTG available at launch they would have. Unfortunately Windows developers out number Mac developers by about 1000 to 1, so it's a lot harder to find a team of Mac developers capable of making TTG work on OSX then it is to find a team to make it work on Windows. In fact TiVo has had a job posting on their website for Mac developers for a couple of years now, which proves that their Mac development team is under staffed.

Dan


"Mac developers by about 1000 to 1?"

Not for long.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/xcode/
http://www.osopinion.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4759

[pmnick]

I've been having problems with streaming music from my 933 mhz G4. The playback stutters throughout just about any song I try, regardless of length, file size, etc. My wireless signal strength is steady at 70-75%, so I don't think that's the problem. I've tried two different USB wireless adapters (Linksys and Belkin) and that doesn't seem to help. I'm using TiVo Desktop 1.9.2 and am running OS X 10.4.6 with 1 gig RAM. Am I missing some setting that I need to tweak?

[tonyf3]

I've been having problems with streaming music from my 933 mhz G4. The playback stutters throughout just about any song I try, regardless of length, file size, etc. My wireless signal strength is steady at 70-75%, so I don't think that's the problem. I've tried two different USB wireless adapters (Linksys and Belkin) and that doesn't seem to help. I'm using TiVo Desktop 1.9.2 and am running OS X 10.4.6 with 1 gig RAM. Am I missing some setting that I need to tweak?


Pmnick,
There aren't any additional settings that I'm aware of. But I can tell you that I've had stuttering as well from time to time. I think has to do with the speed of your wireless connection. The stream can get interupted if your G4 is trying to do other things as well. I'm running from a G4 1.25 Powerbook Alum wireless, 512 ram 10.3.9. Aiport Snow 802.11b as the base station, to a linksys 4 port router/hub wired to a Siemans USB adapter. Runs well 99% of the time. Stutters only ocassionaly.

[pmnick]

Pmnick,
There aren't any additional settings that I'm aware of. But I can tell you that I've had stuttering as well from time to time. I think has to do with the speed of your wireless connection. The stream can get interupted if your G4 is trying to do other things as well. I'm running from a G4 1.25 Powerbook Alum wireless, 512 ram 10.3.9. Aiport Snow 802.11b as the base station, to a linksys 4 port router/hub wired to a Siemans USB adapter. Runs well 99% of the time. Stutters only ocassionaly.

Thanks, guess I'll keep tinkering. I didn't have any problems with earlier releases of TiVo Desktop that worked with Tiger, but this latest version just doesn't cut it. Only two computers share the router at any one time, though I'm my router is an older "b" style, not "g" if that matters.

[maggard]

Man you Mac guys are a sensative [sic] bunch. I can guarantee you that if TiVo could have had a Mac version of TTG available at launch they would have. Unfortunately Windows developers out number Mac developers by about 1000 to 1, so it's a lot harder to find a team of Mac developers capable of making TTG work on OSX then it is to find a team to make it work on Windows. In fact TiVo has had a job posting on their website for Mac developers for a couple of years now, which proves that their Mac development team is under staffed.

Now that's spin!

It has taken TiVo years to find a Mac developer, in spite of their being under 9 miles (http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=2062+Gold+St,+Alviso,+CA+95002+%4037.421651,-121.975960&saddr=1+infinite+loop,+cupertino,+ca&f=li&hl=en&dq=2062+Gold+St,+Alviso,+CA+95002&cid=&om=1) from Apple HQ.

Nooo, no Mac developers to be found, just those poor Windows developers on every corner holding up signs, "Will Code for TiVo Lifetime Subscriptions!". Can't be internal problems at TiVo, can't be something wrong with their recruiting or salary, must be there just aren't any Mac developers out there!

Hey, can I get a recruiting fee if I forward the contact info for a half dozen good Mac programmers in the San Jose area?

Because we can all tell fixing TiVo desktop for the Mac is clearly a huuuuuge top-priority project! I mean, it's not like lots of other 3rd parties haven't been able to do things like this. Indeed fixes were posted here for months after Tiger shipped. Or is the problem one of getting a QuickTime-native TiVo-decoding filter put together, a project that would take under $10K & a week's time by any competent contract programmer familiar with Apple's QT toolchain?

No, I'll just stick with the theory there is something very wrong inside TiVo, that they're simply unable to hire or contract a Mac programmer due to some serious internal dysfunction, and the powers-that-be in TiVo's executive suite really don't care they've alienated an influential part of their user community.

It fits what we've seen so far a lot better, and is a lot more realistic then "Windows developers out number Mac developers by about 1000 to 1".

[Jerry®]

Let me know how it works out with the cable company box when you try to:

a) Play music or view photos on it that are stored on your Mac

b) Get any kind of recorded content off of it

The simple reason is that the cable companies may never provide this kind of functionality. I don't know about you but I wouldn't even attempt to install anything on my PC developed by Comcast, even their cable modem "install" CD breaks more PC's than it helps and all it is doing is modifying some IE registry settings and installing their crap support utils.

I believe Tivo to be smart enough to be doing the only thing it can do without the CableCard 2.0 spec, and that is to add mobility and multimedia features that the CableCo's can't touch for a while. Then once CableCard 2 is done and I can do OnDemand and PPV and truly use my Tivo as a replacement for by Cable Box, that will be a marketable device.

I know it's been said a million times but Mac's are about 4% of the computing world, since TiVo is a multimedia company it's possible their user base is more like 10 maybe even 15% Mac. Just have a little patience, they have publicly commited on their announcements to providing a Mac version of TTG. I'm also sure once it is out it will be superior to our Windows version in every way possible just like the last release.

Duvs

I'm really sick of the "Apple is only 4% of the market share...." excuse. That's no reason to exclude us. Come up with a better excuse.

[tonyf3]

So, tomorrow is May 1st 2006. Still wondering about the "Mid 2006" party line from TiVo.

Quote from MacWorld interview (11/21/05) with Jim Denney TiVo Vice President of Product Marketing:

The company has promised a Macintosh version, which Denney indicated they’re still working on.

“We hope to have something in mid-2006,” he told MacCentral.
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/11/21/tivointerview/index.php

When pressed for more details, Denney added, “I would prefer to underpromise and overdeliver in this case. We haven’t set a date but we’re actively working on it.”

So how's going Jimmy?
We saw it at CES in January, TiVo wasn't at NAB in April.
http://www.megazone.org/Photos/CES2006/TiVo/SMALL/TTG-Mac-5.JPG

It's 6 Months later, what's the story?
TiVo doesn't seem to have any trouble with the underpromise part.
You need set a release date,..meet it, and overdeliver.
Then everyone will shutup, including myself.

[unixb0y]

I'll be trying this tonight.

[megazone]

I'm really sick of the "Apple is only 4% of the market share...." excuse. That's no reason to exclude us. Come up with a better excuse.Actually, yes, from a business standpoint that IS a reason to exclude Mac. My employer does the same thing - Windows-only software. I'd personally like to see Linux, but the business answer is simple - the return on investment for the additional development investment isn't large enough. There is a lot of Windows business to go after that doesn't require any new investment.

That's just how it is, development resources are finite. A lot of vendors simply ignore the Mac market completely because it is too small to justify the investment. And most of the vendors who do both Mac and Windows will do Windows first because they'll get more return from those resources.

That's just the reality of the business. The tiny marketshare is a very good reason for vendors to ignore the Mac, plain and simple. Same for Linux, FreeBSD, and other tiny minority share OSes.

Anyone who decides to use an OS that has a tiny market share has to accept that they will not enjoy the level of vendor support a dominant OS like Windows receives. And I say that as someone who has long run and used 'alternate' OSes like OS/2 Warp, Linux, and FreeBSD. My servers run Linux, my desktop runs XP - and mainly just for TiVo and iTunes, otherwise it'd be Linux too. (Probably not MacOS since the HW is too pricey, and I buy AMD not Intel. If they sold the OS for me to install on my Hw, I would consider it.)

[Unix_Beard]

You are not actually comparing the installed based of MacOS X users to Linux desktop users, are you? You are talking about a platform with widespread major developer support. Linux is a fine server OS but it's severely lacking as a consumer desktop operating system. Bringing Linux into the discussion is completely off-base. Major-developer support just does not exist for Linux. As a developer of consumer software products, there are simply two platforms to consider.

[tommy3rd]

Actually, yes, from a business standpoint that IS a reason to exclude Mac. My employer does the same thing - Windows-only software. I'd personally like to see Linux, but the business answer is simple - the return on investment for the additional development investment isn't large enough. There is a lot of Windows business to go after that doesn't require any new investment.


What i don't understand is why programmers don't just use industry standards to make it cross platform...like mpg and aac instead of wmv and wma.
it's the same damn thing with websites. with proper coding, any browser should render webpages fine, but they code for IE instead and some things just don't work right using other browsers.

[Quevar]

it's the same damn thing with websites. with proper coding, any browser should render webpages fine, but they code for IE instead and some things just don't work right using other browsers.
It drives me nuts because IE is holding the web back from what it could be. There have been absolutely no additional features since it came out 5 years ago.

I was building a website the other day and wanted to use CSS to make a shadow effect behind a picture. So, I looked around online and got something that rendered correctly on Safari. Then I thought I should try it with some other browsers, so I tried Firefox - looked the same as Safari, then tried OmniWeb 4 (not even the most recent version) - looked the same as the previous two browswers, then tried IE 5.5 on the Mac - surprisingly, it looked the same as the three previous browsers, then I went to IE on a Windows machine - it didn't look anywhere close to what it should look like and couldn't even render the shadows.

Here is a link to the example:
http://homepage.mac.com/reedkb/shadow/index.html

It rendered correctly on:
Safari
Firefox
OmniWeb
IE 5.5 on Mac

It did not render correctly on:
IE 6 on Windows

Actually, yes, from a business standpoint that IS a reason to exclude Mac.
But, back on the track of this thread, the 4% number is based on all sales of computers. Among home users, Macs are much more common, so it makes much more sense for them to support them. Especially if you go with the thought that Macs cost more (not necessarily true, but that is a whole other argument) and will probably entice a group of people that likes fancier gadgets, which TiVo falls into. There are probably a lot more Macs users that use TiVo than in the general population of computers that include cash registers and all the big organization computers that sit at work and not at home. But, we've seen how they treat the Mac users and because of that, I have seen several people decide not to get a TiVo.

[megazone]

It drives me nuts because IE is holding the web back from what it could be. There have been absolutely no additional features since it came out 5 years ago.AMEN! I HATE IE6 for this even more than the swiss-cheese security. At least for the latter I can just not use it, but as a web master I have to deal with it and all its hideous bugs and deficencies.

However, this helps: http://dean.edwards.name/ie7/

It is a JavaScript library for IE5-6 that inplements a number of XHTML/CSS features in JS as a 'patch'. It works fairly well too - it allows you to do a lot of standards compliant XHTML/CSS and have it work in IE.

[tonyf3]

Gee, it's almost "Mid 2006" and not peep. Still working hard I guess?

[TydalForce]

Gee, it's almost "Mid 2006" and not peep. Still working hard I guess?

The latest TiVo Desktop added the "GoBack" functionality, so I take that as a sign of progress. My take is, as they get things working for TTG, they're rolling some of those features into TiVo Desktop.

[tonyf3]

The latest TiVo Desktop added the "GoBack" functionality, so I take that as a sign of progress. My take is, as they get things working for TTG, they're rolling some of those features into TiVo Desktop.


I hope so, it's June already.
I'd expect "Mid 2006" to be within the next 6 weeks for TTG release on Mac.

[tonyf3]

Fyi:
Dennis was quoted on engadget.com
http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/04/mac-universal-tivo-desktop-released-hackable/

[ZeoTiVo]

Fyi:
Dennis was quoted on engadget.com
http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/04/mac-universal-tivo-desktop-released-hackable/

yah and the quote came round about from Dave Zatz site. Engadget sure does get its info from good places :)

[tonyf3]

yah and the quote came round about from Dave Zatz site. Engadget sure does get its info from good places :)

You know I really hadn't taken a good look at Dave's site before. He's got alot of great content. Thanks for the correction.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/ttg.htm

[davezatz]

Thanks for the positive feedback! :)

(Like everyone else I'm anxiously awaiting Mac TTG. While I'm a Windows professional, I'd like to move more of my personal life onto the Mac platform. 6 weeks would be nice, but I'm afraid to even guess. I don't think the early switch to Intel has helped small companies like TiVo and Slingbox any. As it is I'm wondering where the iPod/PSP support for the PC desktop is - it's been beta tested for MONTHS now. Unless TiVo is waiting to simultaniously release an updated TiVo Desktop for both platforms.;))

[tonyf3]

You're Welocome Dave.

On another note, my job gave me a 60 day demo unit of the 17" Intel Mac Book Pro.
I installed "Parallells" on it http://www.parallels.com/ the windows virtual machine app
and a copy of Windows XP. The performance is impressive. It's not at all like running Virtual PC.
When I tried VPC on my 15" PPC it worked ok, but it was slow and it couldn't connect to my TiVo. I intalled TiVo desktop 2.3, + TTG and "voila" I can pull down shows. I install Windows Media 10 Player and then I discover that I need a codec, but which one? I tried the NVidia 30 day trial, but the end result was audio only no picture.

Interesting so far, will have to try the other codecs. I hope this is easier an more elegant in OSX native TTG. (That's coming any day now?)

[davezatz]

I install Windows Media 10 Player and then I discover that I need a codec, but which one? I tried the NVidia 30 day trial, but the end result was audio only no picture.

Probably the quickest and easiest way to get TTG shows playing in a VM like that without codec fiddling is to get the Windows version of VLC. It is both a player and has a codec built right in.

Speaking of, I just pre-ordered Parallel's though I don't have an Intel Mac yet. ;)

[Fofer]

I installed "Parallells" on it http://www.parallels.com/ the windows virtual machine app and a copy of Windows XP. The performance is impressive. It's not at all like running Virtual PC.

That's because it's not emulating (like VirtualPC.) It's virtualization. Big difference, and that's why it's fast. You're running WinXP on Intel hardware. It just so happens to be running inside a Mac OS X window. :)

Just don't gloat too loudly to TiVo about this, it might give them some ideas about our anxiously awaited Mac-native version of TTG. ;)

[tonyf3]

Just don't gloat too loudly to TiVo about this, it might give them some ideas about our anxiously awaited Mac-native version of TTG. ;)

Absolutley!,
I have 7 Mac's & 2 TiVo's at home. Half are relativley new spanning from
OSX 10.3.9 to 10.4.6. So I'm not going to be in a position to take advantage of the new intel hardware for awhile.

So, I'd rather run the anxiously awaited Mac-native version of TTG!
Which will hopefully be better than the Windows version of TTG.
Did I mention I never got it to play video even after installing codecs and WM10.
It was audio only?

Anytime now guys!
:eek:

[davezatz]

Did I mention I never got it to play video even after installing codecs and WM10. It was audio only?

See above, and download VLC for PC. :)

Yes, I'm also in favor of a native Mac solution. At the moment I'm running 10.3 on non-Intel hardware. Speaking of VLC, Mac TTG file associations pointed to VLC based on the pictures megazone took at CES. Makes sense since QT has problems with MPEG2, even with the plugin. Wonder if the DVD software can handle it. Anyway, I'm probably getting ahead of myself... what will be released cannot probably be determined from a few screenshots.

[tonyf3]

See above, and download VLC for PC. :)

Yes, I'm also in favor of a native Mac solution. At the moment I'm running 10.3 on non-Intel hardware. Speaking of VLC, Mac TTG file associations pointed to VLC based on the pictures megazone took at CES. Makes sense since QT has problems with MPEG2, even with the plugin. Wonder if the DVD software can handle it. Anyway, I'm probably getting ahead of myself... what will be released cannot probably be determined from a few screenshots.


Thanks Dave.
This is too funny, I was just looking at the screen shots from megazone again and noticed that the preferred playback app was VLC.

I also noticed that some mpegs that I couldn't play on other my other Macs did play on my G5 that had Final Cut 5 HD on it.

[tonyf3]

See above, and download VLC for PC. :)

Yes, I'm also in favor of a native Mac solution. At the moment I'm running 10.3 on non-Intel hardware. Speaking of VLC, Mac TTG file associations pointed to VLC based on the pictures megazone took at CES. Makes sense since QT has problems with MPEG2, even with the plugin. Wonder if the DVD software can handle it. Anyway, I'm probably getting ahead of myself... what will be released cannot probably be determined from a few screenshots.


Gotta try this before I have to send the 17" demo unit back, thanks Dave.

[cwoody222]

TiVo just released v2.3 which includes - for $25 - automatic conversion for TiVo files on iPods, Treo's, PSPs, etc.

Of course it's Windows-only.

Thanks again, TiVo - for a big, fat, nothing! :(

[tonyf3]

TiVo just released v2.3 which includes - for $25 - automatic conversion for TiVo files on iPods, Treo's, PSPs, etc.

Of course it's Windows-only.

Thanks again, TiVo - for a big, fat, nothing! :(



Son of a B____!
They're probably preparing new excuses or blaming Apple why this isn't out yet.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

I don't get the panic. The Mac Desktop is a completely different product, with a completely different code base (heck, the Mac and Windows desktops aren't even coded in the same language for the most part.) I wouldn't expect them to hold up a release on one platform to wait for the other, with the two being as different as they are.

The Mac product has been moving forward in the meantime, albeit in ways that are not terribly visible to the average end-user.

They're probably preparing new excuses or blaming Apple why this isn't out yet.

Excuses for what, exactly? As I read it, they haven't missed the timeframe Pony mentioned for release.

This is mostly an aside, but, having worked with, but never for, Apple for well over a decade -- they don't always make the most cooperative partner to work with.

TiVo's Windows Desktop team got a feature out the door. Congrats to the Windows Desktop team!

I just hope the Mac Desktop team will meet with similar success with regard to their release.

[cwoody222]

I don't get the panic. The Mac Desktop is a completely different product, with a completely different code base (heck, the Mac and Windows desktops aren't even coded in the same language for the most part.) I wouldn't expect them to hold up a release on one platform to wait for the other, with the two being as different as they are.


I don't expect one to articifically "hold up" the other either.

But this is - yet again - the case of the Windows version blazing well past the Mac version in terms of features.

We were ALMOST caught up... meaning if and when the Mac ToGo version was ever released we'd finally - a year and a half later - be equal in features.

Now the Windows version has added MORE features. Making the chasm that much wider.

Will the Mac ToGo version - vaporware that it is right now - offer the iPod conversion stuff too? Or will it only bring it up to date with Jan 2005 features of the Windows version?

Sadly, my assumption is the latter.

Prove me wrong, TiVo. Have this magical Mac version contain the EXACT SAME feature set as whatever the current Windows version does. Otherwise, don't bother.

I don't want to play catch-up AGAIN...

[Fofer]

A first version of TiVo To Go for Mac isn't even out yet.

It was announced in January 2004. That's two and a half years ago.

[bedelman]

Prove me wrong, TiVo. Have this magical Mac version contain the EXACT SAME feature set as whatever the current Windows version does.
Or better yet -- provide direct integration with iTunes, iPhoto (oh - TiVo Desktop for Mac already does those, doesn't it ;) ), and iMovie

[TydalForce]

Or better yet -- provide direct integration with iTunes, iPhoto (oh - TiVo Desktop for Mac already does those, doesn't it ;) ), and iMovie

Maybe throw in one or two more bonus features for us Mac people to make up for it...

FrontRow integration? Send-To-iDVD button? Instant Popcorn button that makes buttery salty delights come out the CD-ROM slot?

OK that last one might be a violation of the DMCA or something, but its nice to dream ;-)

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Or better yet -- provide direct integration with iTunes, iPhoto (oh - TiVo Desktop for Mac already does those, doesn't it ;) ), and iMovie

Unfortunately, iMovie (and iDVD) support would have to come from Apple. iMovie uses QuickTime to play/import video, but TiVo video (at least as it exists when used on Windows) is muxed MPEG-2, and MPEG-1 and 2 are special beasts in QuickTime. From the current iMovie HD's online help:


iMovie does not work with muxed MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 clips

When using any version of iMovie, please note that you cannot import muxed (multiplexed) MPEG-1 or MPEG-2 video clips into projects. If you try, one or more of the following things can happen:

<...snipped symptoms and technique to check for muxed MPEG...>

Note: If you have the QuickTime MPEG-2 playback component installed, it may not change the issues described above. Editing muxed MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 files is not supported in iMovie, even with this component installed.

[TydalForce]

Unfortunately, iMovie (and iDVD) support would have to come from Apple. iMovie uses QuickTime to play/import video, but TiVo video (at least as it exists when used on Windows) is muxed MPEG-2, and MPEG-1 and 2 are special beasts in QuickTime. From the current iMovie HD's online help:

Yeah, true. But, if TiVo built a TiVo codec for QuickTime.... and maybe that's exactly what they're doing (and why its taking so long?) ... then TiVo videos could play in QuickTime Player (no need for yet another download like VLC or MPlayer) and could go right into iDVD

Its nice to dream, isn't it? (c:

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Yeah, true. But, if TiVo built a TiVo codec for QuickTime.... and maybe that's exactly what they're doing (and why its taking so long?) ... then TiVo videos could play in QuickTime Player (no need for yet another download like VLC or MPlayer) and could go right into iDVD

Doing that for MPEG-2 involves writing quite a bit more than a codec (import component, media handler components, possibly both video and audio codec components.) The key for iDVD is making the muxed track look like two different tracks, one audio, one video (that's what Apple's component fails to do that results in the iMovie and iDVD incompatibility -- they see an "MPEG track" with audio and video "characteristics" instead.) That's challenging, to say the least (I doubt Apple would have implemented MPEG the way they did if it weren't.)

They could also try implementing things such that they demuxed the data during transfer, and wrote out a two-track QuickTime movie instead of something that was truly MPEG-in-an-MPEG-wrapper. That might reduce the problem to only a decompressor component for the video, but they could potentially run into trouble with audio and video sync.

But it is nice to dream. ;)

[tonyf3]

I don't get the panic. The Mac Desktop is a completely different product, with a completely different code base (heck, the Mac and Windows desktops aren't even coded in the same language for the most part.) I wouldn't expect them to hold up a release on one platform to wait for the other, with the two being as different as they are.

The Mac product has been moving forward in the meantime, albeit in ways that are not terribly visible to the average end-user.



Excuses for what, exactly? As I read it, they haven't missed the timeframe Pony mentioned for release.

This is mostly an aside, but, having worked with, but never for, Apple for well over a decade -- they don't always make the most cooperative partner to work with.

TiVo's Windows Desktop team got a feature out the door. Congrats to the Windows Desktop team!

I just hope the Mac Desktop team will meet with similar success with regard to their release.


This may be a bad analogy but here it goes anyway.

Let's look at it this way. Most people have cable tv, and the average cost is $60 a month for expanded basic cable as an example. But, you have a Panasonic TV and your cable company only supports SONY. So, you don't get all the channels. You get maybe 3/4 of them. Would you still want to pay the $60 for 3/4 of the channels? Or would you expect to be paying $45. When you complain about the inequality, they tell you we're working hard on Panasonic support for 1 1/2 yrs. Or go buy a SONY TV.

I think I'd rather pay the $45 bucks, or have the support. Not pay more, for less than everone else is getting.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

This may be a bad analogy but here it goes anyway.

Let's look at it this way. Most people have cable tv, and the average cost is $60 a month for expanded basic cable as an example. But, you have a Panasonic TV and your cable company only supports SONY. So, you don't get all the channels. You get maybe 3/4 of them. Would you still want to pay the $60 for 3/4 of the channels? Or would you expect to be paying $45. When you complain about the inequality, they tell you we're working hard on Panasonic support for 1 1/2 yrs. Or go buy a SONY TV.

I think I'd rather pay the $45 bucks, or have the support. Not pay more, for less than everone else is getting.

I understand your analogy, Tony -- but that's addressing the larger Macintosh support issue, not the current panic (I have some doubts about the validity of the analogy's logic, since Linux users and, to some extent, people who don't have computers at all fit the argument equally well.)

What I don't get is the reaction to a the 2.3 Windows release. Pony said mid-2006 for Mac TTG. Mid-2006 isn't over yet. He never said there wouldn't be other releases of other products in the interim -- in fact, quite the opposite is true. He certainly never said "no new Windows releases until we have a Mac version ready." Yet, everyone is reacting as if this is some grand surprise that requires additional angst, when it seems to me it's exactly what we should have been expecting given TiVo's press and Pony's comments here.

If we get to early/mid-September (i.e. past the promised period plus a small amount to allow for slippage -- it is software, after all) without a new release or new information, then I can easily see the kind of reaction we're seeing now.

[Fofer]

Two. And a Half. YEARS.

[mattman]

This may be a bad analogy but here it goes anyway.

Let's look at it this way. Most people have cable tv, and the average cost is $60 a month for expanded basic cable as an example. But, you have a Panasonic TV and your cable company only supports SONY. So, you don't get all the channels. You get maybe 3/4 of them. Would you still want to pay the $60 for 3/4 of the channels? Or would you expect to be paying $45. When you complain about the inequality, they tell you we're working hard on Panasonic support for 1 1/2 yrs. Or go buy a SONY TV.

I think I'd rather pay the $45 bucks, or have the support. Not pay more, for less than everone else is getting.

I get the analogy as well, and I am upset that I am unable to enjoy the benefits of TiVoToGo without some kludge (such as using my work Dell laptop to get the shows and convert them to a usable format), but my thought is that both of my TiVos still do the thing that I bought them for, which is to record TV without a hitch (most of the time). I prefer to watch TV from the comfort of my bedroom or living room, and would only use TTG occasionally, but I agree that I would likely use it more if it was easier to use for me, as a Mac user.

As for paying less, I am paying the same amount for the service as when I started using it, actually less if you count the discount on the second unit. So while I can complain about the lack of TTG for my chosen platform, and do. I don't see that I owe any less money for the service, which is the same as when I got the unit originally, and improved in many ways.

Just my 2 cents again, without diminishing the frustration I feel at still not having the benefits of TiVoToGo.

Matt

[Puppy76]

Well, we got the new Tivo Desktop for Windows...and no Mac. I was really hoping they'd come out at the same time.

I'm toying with getting a Macbook or Pro, so this is getting increasingly important. I'd have to either give up on a Mac, or give up on Tivo (assuming some other DVR can do Mac-compatible formats) :(

[megazone]

I'm toying with getting a Macbook or Pro, so this is getting increasingly important. I'd have to either give up on a Mac, or give up on Tivo (assuming some other DVR can do Mac-compatible formats) :(There is no other DVR on the market today that I'm aware of that supports transfers to a PC *or* Mac. You could get something like the Elgato EyeTV and use a software DVR on your Mac, that's about it.

Maybe an old ReplayTV and 3rd party software like DVArchive, I *think* that runs on Mac.

Basically, TiVo is it.

[superdlux]

It's the lack of information. Most companies, when releasing software on both platforms say something to the effect of:

We are proud to release the Windows XP version today– the Mac version will follow in a few months, etc. etc. But nothing more than, well … nothing.

[braunfamily]

A TiVo newbie here: So, Here we are at 6-25-2006 and although the TiVoDesktop loads, where'd it go? Incompatible or funky download? Tried several times on this, between Version Tracker and the TiVo site, bit nothin'! Any MAC help appreciated!

Otherwise, love this thing!

[Dennis Wilkinson]

A TiVo newbie here: So, Here we are at 6-25-2006 and although the TiVoDesktop loads, where'd it go? Incompatible or funky download? Tried several times on this, between Version Tracker and the TiVo site, bit nothin'! Any MAC help appreciated!

When you say "it loads, but where'd it go?" -- are you asking about where it was installed? If so, it's a pane in System Preferences.

If not, is it not starting? Something else?

[cwoody222]

Maybe an old ReplayTV and 3rd party software like DVArchive, I *think* that runs on Mac.


Yes it does.

I have DVArchive installed on my Mac and can transfer shows in either direction (to or from the Mac) and can play ReplayTV files on my Mac also.

[tonyf3]

So I guess the answer for June TTG support is, uh... no.
Since it's now July.

Is this really that hard guys?

So, they've got roughly 2 more months on the whole "MID 2006" thing
before I start in on them about that.

Hey! but wait, I got the KID Zone service update last night. Whoo, Whoo.
Even though I have 3 kids of varying ages I really don't care.
Amazing, this enhanced service feature got done and added but, Mac TTG...well you know the story. Don't get me started.

[Puppy76]

*Whistles to himself*

*Stares longinly at Macbook*

[cwoody222]

Oh, but wait. It's still not officially the end of "mid" 2006. So I guess we're not officially allowed to complain.

I guess the Windows folks won't let us complain until the Fall Equinox or something...

[Puppy76]

LOL! Hmm... mid 2006. I guess May, June, July, August could ligitimately be termed "mid 2006". So they've got another two months...

They need to get this out though so I can plan for the fall season. I need something with dual tuners, but I literally need to either give up Mac, or give up Tivo if they don't get this out...

[megazone]

Just write it off and expect it will never be released. Then if it is, it is a nice surprise.

[tonyf3]

At least you've seen it.

This is more about their lack of communication, and taking 1 1/2 years to deal with it.
As far as writing it off, I'd rather they would say it's not going to happen.
Then I'd get out my screwdriver and just hack the box and call it a day.
But, really don't want to do that if I don't have to.

So in the mean time they keep blowin sunshine about all their other neat new features while
wait and stew for this one.

Now they have .wma in beta.

[gonzotek]

Now they have .wma in beta.Tony, the wma plugin is a third-party plugin released 3 years ago by a community member, not TiVo. I see you've posted in that thread, but you may have missed that the OP's date is 07-30-2003. Dan203 recently released a universal audio plugin (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=295778) for TD for Windows that uses any available DirectShow audio filter to playback various filetypes besides mp3. On the mac side, Dennis Wilkinson has found that the lame transcoder provides similar features for TD and aac files. All of these were possible because of TiVo intentionally putting in software hooks to allow third parties to expand TiVo Desktop's capabilities.

[bedelman]

This is not a solution to the current situation that there's no TiVoToGo for Mac OSX yet -- but we just got a new MacBook Pro for my wife who uses a Windows only based pattern making program named PatternMaster (from Wild Ginger). She had been using Virtual PC along with Windows 98SE but as the pattern making program had features added -- it just got slower. And she had other machine embroidery software that required Windows XP (which is almost unusable under Virtual PC)

I installed Parallels along with Windows XP Pro and had her pattern making program working very nicely -- and I used the Windows XP license from Virtual PC (there's documentation at http://www.nu2.nu/bootcd/wxp and http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20060527175405403 on how to make the Windows XP CD included with Virtual PC to be bootable)

I installed TiVo Desktop 2.3 last night on it -- and it looks to be working well. Video playback with the Windows Media Player also worked without a hitch.

[ccooperev]

This is not a solution to the current situation that there's no TiVoToGo for Mac OSX yet -- but we just got a new MacBook Pro for my wife who uses a Windows only based pattern making program named PatternMaster (from Wild Ginger). She had been using Virtual PC along with Windows 98SE but as the pattern making program had features added -- it just got slower. And she had other machine embroidery software that required Windows XP (which is almost unusable under Virtual PC)

I installed Parallels along with Windows XP Pro and had her pattern making program working very nicely -- and I used the Windows XP license from Virtual PC (there's documentation at http://www.nu2.nu/bootcd/wxp and http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20060527175405403 on how to make the Windows XP CD included with Virtual PC to be bootable)

I installed TiVo Desktop 2.3 last night on it -- and it looks to be working well. Video playback with the Windows Media Player also worked without a hitch.


And this solution would leave millions of G4 Mac users in the dark...

[mikegrb]

And this solution would leave millions of G4 Mac users in the dark...

And G5! ;)

[Dennis Wilkinson]

And this solution would leave millions of G4 Mac users in the dark...

Thus Bob's very first line: "This is not a solution to the current situation that there's no TiVoToGo for Mac OSX yet..."

[bedelman]

Thus Bob's very first line: "This is not a solution to the current situation that there's no TiVoToGo for Mac OSX yet..."
Thanks Dennis

Those who are familiar with my posts (here and elsewhere) know that I'm very much a big Macintosh fan/user. Only my wife's new laptop is an Intel MacBook Pro. All the other Macintoshes in the house (all eight of them) are not.

I just thought others might be interested in what I found to be the case with using Parallels Desktop.

[homertime]

It's just a shame that we've waited patiently, seen other seemingly more ridiculous updates, and we still lack mac support.

It pisses me off that they offer this "paid" service to send to iPod PSP, etc, before they release a TivoToGo for mac. This just makes it clear that they're looking to make money, and aren't dedicated to ALL of their customers.


After my 12 month gift subscription ceases, I'm terminating Tivo - I'm not going to pay for a service that gives features to only SOME of its customers.

There are a lot of good DVRs out there through cable providers that have much more seamless program guide integration and NO channel change/information lag.

I was impressed with Tivo the first month I had it, and have now learned that it's merely an expensive service with mediocre support. For $13 monthly Tivo should be a whole lot better then it is and SHOULD have mac support.

[derekcbart]

Here's another problem to add to the Mac TTG mix. I have Virtual PC and have been using it and the "direct show dump" application to convert the files to burn in Roxio's Toast Titanium. Toast was just updated to version 7.1 and it appears to have killed the ability to burn these converted files. All other video files burn to DVD correctly, but any TTG-DSD-MPG files crash Toast. I also cannot find a link to the 7.0.2 updater so that I can reinstall Toast and only update it to 7.0.2. I have a support ticket opened with Roxio, but I have not heard back from them yet. If anyone knows where I can find the 7.0.2 updater I would be very appreciative.

[Puppy76]

What the heck is going on? Is this a DRM issue? My understanding is Tivo uses some Microsoft DRM right now, and Microsoft dosen't bother supporting it on the Mac, so that's why this dosen't work?

If so, they need to change it, or at least admit that nothing's going to happen, it'll never be compatible, so that Mac users can avoid Tivo if they need Tivo2Go, and not just keep waiting.

The Mac SHOULD be such a great fit with Tivo :(

[Dennis Wilkinson]

What the heck is going on? Is this a DRM issue? My understanding is Tivo uses some Microsoft DRM right now, and Microsoft dosen't bother supporting it on the Mac, so that's why this dosen't work?

According to TiVoPony, they're working on it, and he gave a rough timeframe of mid-2006. If you split the year into thirds (early/mid/late) that means "mid" ends August 30th.

TiVo doesn't use Microsoft DRM (after all, they're encrypting on Linux). It's their own DRM algorithm, but on Windows they implemented the decryption as a DirectShow filter (which makes perfect sense on Windows.) On the Mac, the ideal thing would be to mimic what they did on Windows, but writing a QuickTime component (or components) instead. Unfortunately, Apple's MPEG-2 components for QuickTime are notoriously difficult to work with and more than a little limited, so that throws another wrench into the works. The last public showing of a Mac TTG build (which megazone had posted pictures of over at TiVoLovers (http://community.livejournal.com/tivolovers/) was using VLC for playback. To further complicate things, it appears (although this is unconfirmed) that they lost their internal Mac developer, needed to replace him, and spent a fairly long time doing so (and yes, this should be a project that can be managed by a single coder with some QA backup.)

[ccoulson]

I once worked for a software company that defined "mid-YYYY" as anything other than Jan 1 and Dec 31 ;)