Mac Users lack Tivo togo support

[davezatz]

I'll grant there is some benefit if you can help savvy Mac users with step 2. Go for it.

All I'm saying is, these aren't new solutions you're offering, they are CRAPPY work-arounds.

One person's crap is another person's um facial mud? I don't know the steps/process either, but maybe it's time to compile them since Tivo hasn't stepped up to the plate and for the moment my site has got the bandwidth. :)

I have a Mac. I have a Tivo. Someone want to point me to the specific postings on the site which we can't mention because the sky will fall to get me started...?

[Justin Thyme]

Certainly I agree that any time you have to bypass consumer software solutions, you are not talking about an elegant solution. Yet consumer software cannot go all the places consumers can go, so there will always be Neo's. Many folks don't want to go there. Fine. Do battle with corporations with letter writing campaigns or whatever. Maybe there is some way of getting some traction there- if so, more power to you, and best wishes. Other people simply want to get from point A to point B and don't care to talk endlessly about mcReligion or mcPolitics in order to make some progress against more immediate tasks at hand.

The scheme would not necessarily be a temporary hack. In the first place, Tivo's official announcement is does not necessarily commit them to delivering TTG- ever. Secondly, even if you had TTG on a Mac you might prefer to do this scheme because it will deliver superior video- even Hidef video- for the largest set of users (dTivo).

Yet I can't recommend anything because I can't confirm it. In the interest of serving such mac users, what I understand is this much:

If you can get TivoWebPlus onto your Tivo, then you are 99% of the way there. This part does not do file transfers, so as ccwf says, this much is ok to talk about it on this site. What is in TivoWebPlus is something called a Hack Manager, and from that interface you can load modules (which we can't talk about) from any other computer including macs and linux boxes. That is the 1% part. I gather that for the 1% part- one of the things currently works only marginally in Tiger but talks directly to the Tivo (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=+%22Tyeditor+%2B+Mac+OS+10.4+extraction+%22+). A second thing may be tiger safe since it is is just vanilla FTP (http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=mfs_ftp+and+Mac+OSX+Fetch&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=images), and so there is a mechanism for those on linux boxes as well.

Now if you have a DTivo, PTVupgrade will do the TivoWeb part so complete novices or those that just don't have the time can simply pay to have the hard part done. I think that part will work, but I have heard of no one using a mac who has, nor do I know how gnarly the workflow of doing typical TTG like operations would be. Only a Mac user who actually has been doing this would know. I think there are others besides Fofer that could provide Dave with info on that part via PM.

For those who do not have a DTivo or don't want to fork over the cash, we come to the part of the investigation that is the hard part. How to mod a Tivo if you don't also own a PC. Maybe it is trivial and you can just boot a Mac to Linux and all the steps work just the same. I haven't seen any notes that say that, but maybe you can and I just haven't read enough. The answer might be on the other site, I just don't know- that has to be investigated by someone who knows the realities of current Macs.

If they can borrow a PC that they can crack the lid and replace drives temporarily, then it is similar to the process of doing a Hard drive upgrade, only there are more arcane command lines to type. But all they are doing on the PC is actually booting into Linux as you probably know. That part is well documented.

[Qix]

There has been a lot said here about TiVo and the Mac. As an AVID Mac user, and a jilted lover of my TiVo I'm a bit shocked by the way that the company that changed the way I watched TV would ignore a large percentage of their user base. Think about it, the average mac user is:
*Smarter
*makes more money
* is more technically savvy
* is more apt to USE the technology and PAY for it.

Why ignore us?

Recently I moved to a new apartment and in the process bought an HDTV. I thought long and hard about what to do, and finally ended up dumping my TiVo service for the following reasons:
* no HD support for non sat boxes.
* no T2G for Mac
* no better audio options than standard RCA out.

Three reasons that I ended up going ahead and dumping my service. Two were solved with the Comcrap DVR box. I'm not happy, but TiVo doesn't support me as a customer, and I pay the same $12.95 a month than everyone else does yet I can't use all of the systems features because of their lack of foresight?

Sorry TiVo, I'll take my business elsewhere.

[tonyf3]

"We haven't committed to any plans [for integration] to it because of the cost," Courtney said.

He added that being able to watch media on Apple computers using TiVo seems unlikely "unless we find a way to record it under the current platform, and I don't think that will happen in the next few years."

Did he say YEARS!
Hey! Do us all a favor "Quit your job now" and let people who care about these platforms develope the software and solutions the paying users want, and deserve.

[davezatz]

Hey! Do us all a favor "Quit your job now" and let people who care about these platforms develope the software and solutions the paying users want, and deserve.
That's not such a bad idea... His 2004 pay would have covered Mac development.

David Courtney, 45
Chief Financial Officer
$1.35M

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=TIVO

[AnteL0pe]

If no one has bothered to look into it in any depth, does anyone know of any sites or notes that discuss mac users employing TivoWebPlus or other mod's to get TTG functionality?
www.mactivo.com used to be half decent. Looks like theyre gone now though.... They had instructions and disk images to get everything going. Kinda sucks that theyre gone as I didn’t grab those disk images….

I picked Access because it is a common db platform for hosting web services
Common? I dont know about that, maybe it was 10 years ago, but i wouldnt trust any web developer who thought using Access was a good idea.

I just don't get it. They say on their website "We are currently working on ways to enable playback on Apple Macintosh computers."

You don't like how long it is taking. You don't like that you don't have a date.
The fact that they havent set a date is a clear indication that they are not working on it. Or if they are, that the date is so far off (years?) that it really isnt worth waiting for. Oh, and you have the statements by the CFO that were a bit troubling.

[ZeoTiVo]

a certain tool is available for Mac OSX that completes the hacks on the Mac side. Really doing extraction from a TiVo with a Mac is not really any different than with a PC. Which does leave the problems of hacking newer series 2 as stated above by Rog, etc but if you have read the threqad to this point then you know it is not a perfect world anyway ;)

check out this page for more
http://www.hitormiss.org/2005/03/07/tivo-to-dvd-via-mac-osx/

[davezatz]

a certain tool is available for Mac OSX that completes the hacks on the Mac side. Really doing extraction from a TiVo with a Mac is not really any different than with a PC.
The extraction I understand, I'm trying to figure out how to mod/prepare the Tivo without PC intervention for the folks who are monogamous. It would be nice if we could come up with a guide to put out there, but there is little information and not well organized... not to mention the task may not be for the feint of heart.

[Justin Thyme]

www.mactivo.com used to be half decent. Looks like theyre gone now though.…..

Thanks. At least I can look around for outbound links to that site and maybe turn something up.

The fact that they havent set a date is a clear indication that they are not working on it... Up until two weeks ago, there wasn't even a vague time period for releasing TTG support for dvd recorder Tivos.

Tivo's official statement is that they are working on it. I think that means they are working on it.

Even if that were not the case, I don't think there is any effective way of pressuring Tivo to deliver, so I don't see the point of wringing one's hands over it.

But that's just my opinion.

[ZeoTiVo]

The extraction I understand, I'm trying to figure out how to mod/prepare the Tivo without PC intervention for the folks who are monogamous. It would be nice if we could come up with a guide to put out there, but there is little information and not well organized... not to mention the task may not be for the feint of heart.

since there are iso images you can put on CDs now and boot from to do the Hard drive work I do not think it matters if the PC runs windows or Mac OS. I assume Macs use IDE drives and can boot from the CDROM drive. The instructions are the same from what I have read. I have not felt the need to go in and hack my TiVo though so this is from my reading.

Still I agree it is not for the feint of heart and not to be done lightly as it changes how you get updates and deal with other new features (which is why I have not hacked one of mine yet - I did not feel it worth the hassle of maintaining the TiVo, YMMV) but it seems clear that TTG for Mac is not likely for a while so it is worth noting that hacking and running it via a MAc is possible. I think Tiger support is getting better for that certain tool as well.

[AnteL0pe]

Thanks. At least I can look around for outbound links to that site and maybe turn something up.
Good luck, im not having any luck finding anything that pointed to that site, that was pointed to from that site or even a working copy of it on archive.org

[gonzotek]

since there are iso images you can put on CDs now and boot from to do the Hard drive work I do not think it matters if the PC runs windows or Mac OS. I assume Macs use IDE drives and can boot from the CDROM drive. The instructions are the same from what I have read. I have not felt the need to go in and hack my TiVo though so this is from my reading.
Problem is macs are, well, macs :) and won't run(or boot) code compiled for the x86 architecture(without heavy emulation anyway), so boot-cds would have to be compiled for the PowerPC architecture. If one already has been, then the rest would be as easy (or difficult) as doing it under an x86 linux build or whatever.

[rog]

Common? I dont know about that, maybe it was 10 years ago, but i wouldnt trust any web developer who thought using Access was a good idea.

Whatever. I told you guys this was a silly tangential argument. If you want to keep hounding it, here's some sites that are using Access for hosted DB's:

http://www.pam.org
http://www.newtrade.co.uk
http://www.pinehouse.co.uk
(I could list on and on)

Using ODBC to connect to an Access DB *is* quite common. It has many advantages over MySQL or MS SQL (insert other DB here) that I won't get into.

Of course, MySQL and MS SQL (etc) have advantages over Access too.

Like I've said several times now, every tool has its use. Anyone who claims there is one DB to rule them all, or that one particular DB is not used for websites, has their head up their ass.

My point was a simple one. There are times when a PC is the ideal tool. There are times when a Mac is the ideal tool. There are times when a Linux/Unix box is the ideal tool.

I can't believe anyone is still arguing this point.

[rog]

Problem is macs are, well, macs :) and won't run(or boot) code compiled for the x86 architecture(without heavy emulation anyway), so boot-cds would have to be compiled for the PowerPC architecture. If one already has been, then the rest would be as easy (or difficult) as doing it under an x86 linux build or whatever.


Exactly. The weeknees ISO is compiled for x86. I assume others are as well. They will NOT boot on a modern PPC-based Mac.

However, couldn't one grab a PPC-enabled Linux boot disk (like Knoppix maybe?), and then download and compile mfstools for PPC? Is the source code available for mfstools?

[gonzotek]

Exactly. The weeknees ISO is compiled for x86. I assume others are as well. They will NOT boot on a modern PPC-based Mac.

However, couldn't one grab a PPC-enabled Linux boot disk (like Knoppix maybe?), and then download and compile mfstools for PPC? Is the source code available for mfstools?
It's beyond my skillset, but that's what it would take. MFStools are on sourceforge:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/mfstools/

[rog]

I just found this:

http://ask.pvrblog.com/2004/10/ppc_linux_boot_.html

Indeed, you should be able to use a fairly standard PPC-based Linux boot CD, then compile the mfstools from the source (which gonzotek just posted the link to).

There are several PPC-based Linux boot CD's:

Gentoo:
http://www.gentoo.org/

Knoppix PPC:
http://debian.tu-bs.de/knoppix/powerPC/

[ZeoTiVo]

just do a search on "PPC based TiVo hacks"

the CDs are out there, I just do not want to link to anything directly and assumed a PPC based. getting into touchy ground so being half vauge though TiVo has no options here and I do not feel so bad about discussing this on forum.

[bedelman]

Using ODBC to connect to an Access DB *is* quite common. It has many advantages over MySQL or MS SQL (insert other DB here) that I won't get into. There are plenty of ODBC drivers that work under Mac OSX -- so if you're merely hooking to an MS-Access database using ODBC, I would imagine you could do so from a Macintosh (unless Microsoft is using a proprietary flavor of ODBC for MS-Access.

[gonzotek]

just do a search on "PPC based TiVo hacks"

the CDs are out there, I just do not want to link to anything directly and assumed a PPC based. getting into touchy ground so being half vauge though TiVo has no options here and I do not feel so bad about discussing this on forum.
Did some digging and there is a ppc iso boot disc on sourceforge. Any interested user could try doing a "require all words search" for "tivo ppc" with the sourceforge search engine.

[rog]

Did some digging and there is a ppc iso boot disc on sourceforge. Any interested user could try doing a "require all words search" for "tivo ppc" with the sourceforge search engine.

Indeed!

There you go Justin. :D

[dropd]

Up until two weeks ago, there wasn't even a vague time period for releasing TTG support for dvd recorder Tivos.


Yes there was. From the moment TiVoToGo was announced, TiVo was claiming that support for the DVD-recorder TiVos would be "later this year" (meaning sometime in 2005).

That qualifies as a vague time period.

This is from the VERY FIRST POST of the sticky thread announcing TiVoToGo availability, and was posted by TiVoBill:


DVD Recorder with TiVo models from Humax, Toshiba, and Pioneer will not receive the TiVoToGo feature until later this year. Toshiba DVD Player models will receive the update during the scheduled rollout process. Please do not sign up at the priority list if you have a DVD Recorder with TiVo model.


Please stop spreading misinformation.

[Justin Thyme]

Yeah, but are they the correct builds of Linux that will run on whichever mac box the user has, and will that version run the required tools (eg. large hard drive support).

Getting it wrong without confirmation could wind up bricking someone's Tivo. Better that someone who has done it would have written it up and we could see multiple people confirm that the recipe was good.

But maybe the set of folks who want to maintain non PC purity who also have the interest to do this is actually very small.

[rog]

Yeah, but are they the correct builds of Linux that will run on whichever mac box the user has, and will that version run the required tools (eg. large hard drive support).

See gonzotek's post above, #769, and follow the breadtrail. There is a PPC-based boot CD specifically for TiVo hacking.

Getting it wrong without confirmation could wind up bricking someone's Tivo. Better that someone who has done it would have written it up and we could see multiple people confirm that the recipe was good.

But maybe the set of folks who want to maintain non PC purity who also have the interest to do this is actually very small.

This is what I've been trying to tell you! Hellloooooo?

[bedelman]

New options "to go"...

EyeTV 1.8 adds H.264, iTunes and EyeTV 'to go' for PSP
May 17 - 14:25 EDT Elgato Systems today announced the release of a comprehensive new version of the award-winning EyeTV Software. EyeTV 1.8 (http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=support_updates_eyetv) offers allows users to experience additional advanced enjoyment with EyeTV "to go,", a solution by Elgato that allows Mac owners to conveniently export EyeTV recordings to Sony’s Playstation Portable (PSP) and other mobile devices. EyeTV 1.8 is fully compatible with the new Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger and includes support for the video codec H.264 in QuickTime 7. Newly added iTunes support provides users with even more options for increasing their personal libraries. Audio tracks can be exported from EyeTV recordings and effortlessly imported into an iTunes music library, creating direct access to television and film soundtracks.

[tonyf3]

New options "to go"...

EyeTV 1.8 adds H.264, iTunes and EyeTV 'to go' for PSP
May 17 - 14:25 EDT Elgato Systems today announced the release of a comprehensive new version of the award-winning EyeTV Software. EyeTV 1.8 (http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=support_updates_eyetv) offers allows users to experience additional advanced enjoyment with EyeTV "to go,", a solution by Elgato that allows Mac owners to conveniently export EyeTV recordings to Sony’s Playstation Portable (PSP) and other mobile devices. EyeTV 1.8 is fully compatible with the new Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger and includes support for the video codec H.264 in QuickTime 7. Newly added iTunes support provides users with even more options for increasing their personal libraries. Audio tracks can be exported from EyeTV recordings and effortlessly imported into an iTunes music library, creating direct access to television and film soundtracks.

Just reviewed their whole product line. I'll get this before I buy another TiVo. At least the Elgato Guys get it. Mac only! Take that! TiVo, Directshow DRM, Windows Media, etc.
I'm done! unless TiVo pulls a rabbit out of their...... and if so it had better be soon.
As in Yesterday!
I'll need to upgrade to an Airport extreme base station from my 802.11b Snow. Hopefully my old G4 450 can act as the server for it. I was wondering what to do with it once I get a shiny new G5.

Thanks Bedelman!

[bedelman]

It doesn't look like it will do anything beyond analog cable though :(

[rog]

It doesn't look like it will do anything beyond analog cable though :(

I'm not so sure... check out this link:

http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyetvmain2&countrytogo=33

EyeTV 500
The first high-definition television (HDTV) solution for the Mac!

Receive HDTV & SDTV on the Mac via free over-the-air (ATSC) and digital cable (Clear QAM) television.

Wow. The EyeTV thing is looking pretty cool.

[Fofer]

If a channel requires a cable box, or you use a satellite receiver, the EyeTV won't work. Once their unit has serial or infared control of these required external boxes (or cablecard becomes a reality and EyeTV supports it) then maybe it will be a viable alternative to TiVo for me. Until then it's just a cool accessory to keep an eye on.



EDIT: typos fixed

[iDriveX]

The second one of these boxes does IR control...I'm gettin myself a little mac mini and an eyeTV....I may be waiting a while though :( First time in my life I'm considering a PC (for this and a couple of other business reasons)

[Fofer]

The second one of these boxes does IR control...I'm gettin myself a little mac mini and an eyeTV....I may be waiting a while though :( First time in my life I'm considering a PC (for this and a couple of other business reasons)


The IR control included with the EyeTV 500 (HDTV) controls the EyeTV itself. It does not control an external box (like a cable box or satellite receiver) for channel changes.

http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyetv500_faq

[bedelman]

Readers of this thread might want to fill out the form at the TiVo Suggestion Box (http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/2web519.htm)

[sad05]

How many times can we fill it out? I'm up to four ...

heh heh heh

[davezatz]

How many times can we fill it out?Probably as many times as they can ignore it...

[Rbenavides]

TRust me, I've been wrestling with TTG on my PC, and with all the codec problems (even their "recommended" codecs don't always work) and hanging problems, transferring problems, etc, it's so damn poorly programmed/supported that it is no where near a program that could at this point be ported over to the mac.

Don't wish for something that you haven't seen yet.

[Fofer]

TRust me, I've been wrestling with TTG on my PC, and with all the codec problems (even their "recommended" codecs don't always work) and hanging problems, transferring problems, etc, it's so damn poorly programmed/supported that it is no where near a program that could at this point be ported over to the mac.

Don't wish for something that you haven't seen yet.


Sorta ironic that the unofficial hack for extracting video (which has been out fro a coupla years now) works ten times better than the officially sanctioned mechanism from TiVo. :rolleyes:

MPEG-2 video plays perfectly on the Mac as well, in QuickTime Player with the MPEG-2 plug-in.

[ZeoTiVo]

Sorta ironic that the unofficial hack for extracting video (which has been out fro a coupla years now) works ten times better than the officially sanctioned mechanism from TiVo. :rolleyes:

MPEG-2 video plays perfectly on the Mac as well, in QuickTime Player with the MPEG-2 plug-in.

yep, if Tivo dropped all DRM then it would be all gravy from there. ;) except when the content providers came a suing :(

PS - essentially the hack turns off any encryption of shows - even on the TiVo and then just FTPs the mpegs off. If TiVo could keep the contant owners at bay while making that the official way it would sell a lot of boxes, so many that the content providers would jump all over TiVo in a convulsive knee jerk of fear and loathing.

[Justin Thyme]

Just curious- Isn't Quicktime a pipelined architecture of modules kind of like Directshow? Because Directshow dynamically mixes and matches modules from disparate vendors, it creates bugs in just about any video app. Is it possible for example in Quicktime for a demuxer to get paired with an incompatible audio decoder and video decoder so that out of sync conditions occur?

DRM or not, TTG files on windows platforms would still have significant problems with codecs as long as their code allows Directshow's dynamic matching of object handlers to occur.

[rog]

Just curious- Isn't Quicktime a pipelined architecture of modules kind of like Directshow? Because Directshow dynamically mixes and matches modules from disparate vendors, it creates bugs in just about any video app. Is it possible for example in Quicktime for a demuxer to get paired with an incompatible audio decoder and video decoder so that out of sync conditions occur?

DRM or not, TTG files on windows platforms would still have significant problems with codecs as long as their code allows Directshow's dynamic matching of object handlers to occur.

Justin, don't quote me as I don't know the details, but I don't think QuickTime on OS X is quite the same.

Unfortunately, I know exactly what you mean about the codecs getting screwed up with Directshow under Windows 2000/XP. The GraphEdit tool often has to be used before you can see which filters/codecs/modules are loaded in the chain, and actually fixing things requires even more effort.

I've never had any problems with QuickTime. I don't think the user can really screw up the way the QuickTime engine processes each file; in other words, I believe QuickTime will automatically follow its correct chain of modules (from a limited set of trusted chains) depending on the file-type being played.

And more to the point, once you break the encryption on the TiVo, you have vanilla MPEG. This will play under QuickTime without ever worrying about codecs or "modules".

Granted, I keep a very clean system on my Mac (running Tiger 10.4.1), but this is a non-issue as far as I can tell.

[TivoBrian]

And more to the point, once you break the encryption on the TiVo, you have vanilla MPEG. This will play under QuickTime without ever worrying about codecs or "modules".


It's been my experience that a GraphEdit-ed MPG from a .tivo file has no audio when transferred to a Mac and played in Quicktime Pro (6.5.2) (with the $25 MEPG plugin). Is this fixed with Tiger and the QT 7.x upgrade? My Tiger upgrade is still in the box...haven't taken time yet to do the upgrade to my Mac.

Unlike others, however, I've had ZERO problems transferring files to my XP PC, and I purchased Sonic's MyDVD to make "quick" work of creating a DVD. MyDVD is pretty much worthless when it comes to trying to edit out commercials, or even set chapter points, partly because I'm running it on a 700 MHz Celeron (Dell) with only 192 Mb of RAM. But everything I've tried so far works like clockwork, even if it's a very s-l-o-w clock. All my "real" computing is done on the Mac, so I really don't mind that it takes my PC overnight to transcode and create a .ISO file of a DVD. :D

--Brian

[TivoBrian]

yep, if Tivo dropped all DRM then it would be all gravy from there. ;) except when the content providers came a suing :(

PS - essentially the hack turns off any encryption of shows - even on the TiVo and then just FTPs the mpegs off. If TiVo could keep the contant owners at bay while making that the official way it would sell a lot of boxes, so many that the content providers would jump all over TiVo in a convulsive knee jerk of fear and loathing.

The DRM stuff really puzzles me. Just how does having DRM on a TiVo unit differ from using "BeyondTV" or "MythTV" or anything that Happupage produces in the "WIN-TV" line of video cards??? Why are the content providers so obsessed with what TiVo does?? All these computer-based PVR solutions record video from your entertainment source and lets you burn a DVD, and all at a comparable price point (minus the computer cost) as a Humax DVD/Tivo. TiVo seems to be the only one that encumbers recorded programs with DRM. How come? Why isn't the "industry" just as concerned about BeyondTV, Windows Media Center, Replay, or others??

I guess it's because TiVo is the "big name" in PVRs, so TiVo will take the first shots. But TiVo won't be the big name for long, especially given their lack of response to the Mac Tiger issues and no TTG support for Macs. And, of course, the plethora of alternatives showing up.

I'm REALLY regretting purchasing my Lifetime TiVo Series 2.5. It's sluggish and balky compared to my old Series 1 unit, which is an example of simplicity and reliability. The HMO between my Series 2.5 and my Mac will break as soon as I install Tiger, and then it'll be a PC-only world for my TiVo experiences. Ugh.

But I have a PC so it's less of a problem. However I'm thinking that "BeyondTV" would have been a MUCH wiser use of my entertainment-tech dollars. I'd have spent about the same as I did for the TiVo (much LESS if you count the Lifetime subscription I bought). BeyondTV would make really great use of an older PC collecting dust, and would have no subscription fees. Add a DVD drive to the PC and then I've got a solution far less complicated than TTG or HMO. Hmmmm...

(Gosh it's painful to say that, but Apple's lack of vision in the PVR genre and TiVo's lack of response really is making Windows the home theatre choice if you want to do much of anything. EYE-TV can't control my satellite receiver (yet), I don't think...haven't checked for a while.)

--Brian

[davezatz]

It's been my experience that a GraphEdit-ed MPG from a .tivo file has no audio when transferred to a Mac and played in Quicktime Pro (6.5.2) (with the $25 MEPG plugin).

Save your $25, use the free VLC (http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14738) and get audio.

[AnteL0pe]

It's been my experience that a GraphEdit-ed MPG from a .tivo file has no audio when transferred to a Mac and played in Quicktime Pro (6.5.2) (with the $25 MEPG plugin).
With the exact same setup I did not have the lost audio problems.

[Bigg]

I'll second VLC. It works great with my iBook and TTG video (run through graphedit on a PC). I don't have Tiger yet thhough. :(

[tonyf3]

I'll second VLC. It works great with my iBook and TTG video (run through graphedit on a PC). I don't have Tiger yet thhough. :(


So what's the equivalent of graphedit on Mac? That works..

[rog]

So what's the equivalent of graphedit on Mac? That works..

There is no equivalent.

If there were, we'd have a way to convert .TiVo files to a native Mac-compatible format.

GraphEdit on WinXP is basically just a window into the DirectShow system and its chains of plugins/codecs/modules.

Things are different with Apple's Quicktime, and in my experience, there is no need (much less the ability) to view what is going on in the "video chain", if you will.

[TivoBrian]

With the exact same setup I did not have the lost audio problems.


Wow! Really!? Must've been the codec I was using. I got good video but no audio in either Quicktime or VLC. Must be something in how I'm using GraphEdit...but I guess probably I shouldn't say any more about that in this forum.

But "oh well". The MyDVD software works fine (but sluggish) to get .tivo shows to DVD.

I don't really get why Sonic is the only "authorized" partner in this endeavor. Why not open it up to other software vendors?

--Brian

[rog]

The MyDVD software works fine (but sluggish) to get .tivo shows to DVD.

Nero works too, with a little prompting.

I don't really get why Sonic is the only "authorized" partner in this endeavor. Why not open it up to other software vendors?

I don't know either. I did see recently that there are new products from Roxio that officially support burning of .TiVo files. Of course, Roxio and Sonic are now the same company (one company purchased the other but I don't remember which is which)...

Apparently the options for PC users are expanding while the options for those who only own Macs are vanishing. Tiger doesn't even have basic HMO support, much less the ability to work with TiVoToGo. :(

I'm not afraid to say that I'd love to see an open-sourced tool for opening up the .TiVo files. As far as I know, I still have the legal right to time-shift/space-shift this video in my own home... It's a shame that the burden is on TiVo (the company) to provide the DRM, but that's what the situation appears to be.

[davezatz]

So what's the equivalent of graphedit on Mac? That works..

It doesn't matter if there is an equivalent or not... like other Windows programs (Sonic MyDVD, Dr. DivX, Nero, ZoomPlayer, etc), GraphEdit relies on the PC-only Tivo-installed .dll to open the MPEG. Once it's open you can do a variety of things with GraphEdit including troubleshooting audio/video problems or outputing an unprotected MPEG.

[ep_cat]

I've been reading through the threads and found some good info from the members about using TiVo desktop on the Mac - specifically Tiger 10.4. I know this thread has taken a different turn, so I apologize if this post now seems inappropriate. But I have two questions that I couldn't find answers to: (1) Has anyone tried installing OS 9 (which comes on the 10.4 install disks) to run TiVo Desktop? (2) Has anyone tried running TiVo Desktop in a Windows emulator like Virtual PC? Thanks for any input.

[bedelman]

I've been reading through the threads and found some good info from the members about using TiVo desktop on the Mac - specifically Tiger 10.4. I know this thread has taken a different turn, so I apologize if this post now seems inappropriate. But I have two questions that I couldn't find answers to: (1) Has anyone tried installing OS 9 (which comes on the 10.4 install disks) to run TiVo Desktop? (2) Has anyone tried running TiVo Desktop in a Windows emulator like Virtual PC? Thanks for any input.TiVo Desktop for Mac OSX will not run under OS9 at all. It is a Mac OSX only package.

I've run TiVo Desktop for Windows using Virtual PC with Windows XP. It can be made to work, but it's not a useable option (performance is extremely poor even with good hardware partly because of the Virtual PC networking and video card support)

[Justin Thyme]

Bob- You mean Tivo Desktop 2.1 runs in VPC?

What do you mean by bad performance? TTG transfers are pretty slow even when it is running on a fully tuned XP system- can you estimate the transfer rate?

[Fofer]

I've run TiVo Desktop for Windows using Virtual PC with Windows XP. It can be made to work, but it's not a useable option (performance is extremely poor even with good hardware partly because of the Virtual PC networking and video card support)

Ugh... and then wouldn't you need to have your photos and pics in the Windows environment? (or at least mapped there?)

Sounds like an awful lot of overhead and workaround for something that should Just Work™.

[ep_cat]

Thanks, Bob. Didn't realize TiVo Desktop was for OSX only. My mistake.

Ugh... and then wouldn't you need to have your photos and pics in the Windows environment? (or at least mapped there?)

Sounds like an awful lot of overhead and workaround for something that should Just Work™.

Yeah, you're right. But all my stuff is on a PC now anyway. My Mac is new. Eventually I'll ditch the PC altogether.

[bedelman]

Bob- You mean Tivo Desktop 2.1 runs in VPC?

What do you mean by bad performance? TTG transfers are pretty slow even when it is running on a fully tuned XP system- can you estimate the transfer rate?I don't know about 2.1, but I did have 2.0 running for a while

In regard to performance, I don't think the transfer rate was all that much worse (but I ended up using the https technique to pull the files over instead using a Mac browser and then dropping the .tivo files into place in the Windows directory where it expects them)

The real bottleneck is if you try to play anything with WMP.

I stopped the experiment when I unintentionally managed to completely hose the codec situation within Windows

[tonyf3]

Happy Memorial Day! Still waiting on TiVo togo for Mac: DAY 147 We're about to enter June. I'm sick of those useless happy go lucky Newsletters touting how great TTG is. Idiots!
I'm buying Eye TV.

[Rbenavides]

I purchased AlchemyTV because I don't believe TTG is coming to mac in a serviceable form anytime soon

[ZeoTiVo]

The DRM stuff really puzzles me. Just how does having DRM on a TiVo unit differ from using "BeyondTV" or "MythTV" or anything that Happupage produces in the "WIN-TV" line of video cards??? Why are the content providers so obsessed with what TiVo does?? All these computer-based PVR solutions record video from your entertainment source and lets you burn a DVD, and all at a comparable price point (minus the computer cost) as a Humax DVD/Tivo. TiVo seems to be the only one that encumbers recorded programs with DRM. How come? Why isn't the "industry" just as concerned about BeyondTV, Windows Media Center, Replay, or others??

--Brian

I think the content providers had a two prongred attack lined up. First they caught replayTV in the internet sharing and Commercial Advance features and really hurt the company to the point it is on its last leg and know one knows if it will survive or not. TiVo watched this and are making sure they do not end up in the same losing battle.

as for the PC TV cards, they tend to eventually be owned by the big companies and it would be harder to take them directly to court over simply recording content as they always have. They have a legitimate use of working in a PC to record content. Teh fact that the files made can be moved around at will is somehwat out of the manaufacturer's hands. It would be a harder case for the content providers to win. The content providers had thus taken a different route of getting the FCC to impose a broadcast flag for all digital broadcast that would allow the provider to set use terms such as "no copies made" or "recording only lasts for two days" etc.. It looked to be locked in and the providers looked to be ready to just ignore the analog broadcasts and PC recording devices.

Recently a court ruled that the FCC did not have the authority to pas rules such as requiring the PC card manufacturers to include broadcast flag tech in their products. It would have to be the legislature passing bills to grant them the specific authority to compose and enforce such rules. I have not heard what the content providers response to that is and now await the next move by them after their initial strategy was struck down. I assume they are over in Congress lobbying away.

[Unix_Beard]

At this point, I'd just like a clear answer on whether Mac support has been end-of-lifed at Tivo or not. Can someone from Tivo please comment? Your customers are entitled to that information.

[Fofer]

Seriously. I mean, if Tiger isn't officially supported by HMO yet, that's not saying much.

It took one guy (a customer of yours) a few hours to come out with a workaround... you couldn't do it "officially" within a few weeks?

Sad.

[gfinelogo]

If they won't get it right for mac at least let it work through mac in virtual pc!!!!!!
How hard can this be??????
My only laptop is a G4 and I would love to take my tivo recordings with me on trips.
I agree that tivo has completely abandoned the mac community!

[rog]

If they won't get it right for mac at least let it work through mac in virtual pc!!!!!!
How hard can this be??????
My only laptop is a G4 and I would love to take my tivo recordings with me on trips.
I agree that tivo has completely abandoned the mac community!

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing preventing you from using TiVoDesktop on a Mac with VirtualPC+WinXP installed.

However, technically possible and actually usable are two different things! Have you ever actually tried to use VirtualPC on a Mac? It sucks. It's excruciatingly slow, to the point of being unusable.

Trying to view video on a VirtualPC instance is nearly impossible. This isn't TiVo's fault, it's just the nature of trying to run ported Wintel code on a Mac.

You don't want a VirtualPC solution. You want native TiVoToGo support for Macs. Trust me.

edit: P.S. This has been discussed many times on this and the other TTG/Mac thread. Use the search function if you want to read more...

[Unix_Beard]

I've never tried VPC on a tricked out G5. I wonder if it'd be any better?

[ZeoTiVo]

I've never tried VPC on a tricked out G5. I wonder if it'd be any better?

In windows there is a HAL (Hardware Access Layer) that goes straight to hardware and provides performance via good drivers.

in VPC that HAL is taken out and replaced by a layer that gets to the Mac hardware , but it is the rigged part of VPC and so much translation is needed by the tricked out layer between a Mac and Windows way that it will never be performent for anything requiring memory and video card data dumping on the scale of video.


short answer - An increase in hardware does not equal the same increase in VPC performance.

[bedelman]

VPC 7 was supposed to include direct to video adapter support but it was dropped very close to the release date. It's hoped that it will come back in an update.

[mscottsimon]

In windows there is a HAL (Hardware Access Layer) that goes straight to hardware and provides performance via good drivers.

in VPC that HAL is taken out and replaced by a layer that gets to the Mac hardware , but it is the rigged part of VPC and so much translation is needed by the tricked out layer between a Mac and Windows way that it will never be performent for anything requiring memory and video card data dumping on the scale of video.


short answer - An increase in hardware does not equal the same increase in VPC performance.

HAL != "Hardware Access Layer". That's pretty funny. HAL means "Hardware Abstraction Layer" and provides exactly the opposite of what you described. The HAL is meant to abstract the hardware from the application and deliver a more generic API so a more standard set of calls can be used to drive the underlying hardware. The HAL is not removable.

Real performance comes in when a company writes a driver that drives through the HAL and writes directly to the hardware. Systems management on servers is performed by drivers that create these holes allowing the underlying hardware to be controlled specifically.

In VPC the HAL is not taken out -- it simply calls the virtual hardware presented by the VPC host app. The reason performance is lower on a Mac is the Windows guest HAL is calling the VPC host HAL which in turn is driving the hardware.

.scott

[ZeoTiVo]

HAL != "Hardware Access Layer". That's pretty funny. HAL means "Hardware Abstraction Layer" and provides exactly the opposite of what you described. The HAL is meant to abstract the hardware from the application and deliver a more generic API so a more standard set of calls can be used to drive the underlying hardware. The HAL is not removable.

Real performance comes in when a company writes a driver that drives through the HAL and writes directly to the hardware. Systems management on servers is performed by drivers that create these holes allowing the underlying hardware to be controlled specifically.

In VPC the HAL is not taken out -- it simply calls the virtual hardware presented by the VPC host app. The reason performance is lower on a Mac is the Windows guest HAL is calling the VPC host HAL which in turn is driving the hardware.

.scott

OK - that is eaxctly what I meant (just forgot the word abstraction) and yes it does provide the API from the hardware drivers to the Windows OS. My point still stands that when you add in the layer VPC needs to translate from the HAL to the Mac hardware performance is bottlenecked.

Bedelman pointed out what VPC is trying to do to fix that problem for Video but that they could not quite get there yet.

[martinmcfly]

MPEG-2 video plays perfectly on the Mac as well, in QuickTime Player with the MPEG-2 plug-in.
:confused: I have QT 7 and the MPEG-2 plug-in, but QT won't play the tivo file. Just get an error message "not a file QT understands"?
What am I missing?
Mac-Martin

[Fofer]

:confused: I have QT 7 and the MPEG-2 plug-in, but QT won't play the tivo file. Just get an error message "not a file QT understands"?
What am I missing?
Mac-Martin


What you're missing is the MPEG-2 file. The "tivo" file you're using has DRM wrapped around it, courtesy of TiVo's TTG mechanism.



To get at the file I'm talking about (whether it's the raw .ty file or converted MPEG-2) file, you'd need to hack your box and extract it differently.

[rog]

What you're missing is the MPEG-2 file. The "tivo" file you're using has DRM wrapped around it, courtesy of TiVo's TTG mechanism.

To get at the file I'm talking about (whether it's the raw .ty file or converted MPEG-2) file, you'd need to hack your box and extract it differently.

Or you could convert the .TiVo file into a normal MPEG file. This would require a Windows machine as an intermediary. And we aren't allowed to discuss specifics on this forum.

If you want you can send me a PM. I won't give you any direct links, but I can tell you what to Google for.

[martinmcfly]

Ok - now I understand. I'm a newbie here. Thanks for the heads-up.
PS: I have a PC, but media player 10 crashes while playing most transferred files.

[martinmcfly]

Or you could convert the .TiVo file into a normal MPEG file. This would require a Windows machine as an intermediary. And we aren't allowed to discuss specifics on this forum.

If you want you can send me a PM. I won't give you any direct links, but I can tell you what to Google for.
;) I would be interested since I have a PC in the closet.
How do I send you a PM? (sorry I'm sort of green here)
Martin

[rog]

Reading through the entire article below, it appears that we may be getting closer to decrypting .TiVo files (theoretically on any platform):

http://www.alt.org/wiki/index.php/TiVoToGo

ZeoTiVo said something similar in another Mac thread, but when Apple moves over to Intel, it would conceivably be easier to handle the DRM issues. As seen by the recent announcement re: TiVo on Centrino laptops, it appears the two companies are already working together to streamline some of the issues surrounding TiVoToGo.

[AnteL0pe]

but when Apple moves over to Intel, it would conceivably be easier to handle the DRM issues.
"When?!" I dont think Apple is going to move, it would require a rewrite of a huge chunk of the OS and a large part of any software.

[AnteL0pe]

"When?!" I dont think Apple is going to move, it would require a rewrite of a huge chunk of the OS and a large part of any software.
DOH! I just read confirmation that this is almost certainly going to happen. My bad, thanks for the link rog

[rog]

Steve Jobs' keynote speech at WWDC 2005 is happening right now. From the updates here:

http://www.macrumorslive.com/web/

it appears that the Intel rumors are true. I say that because of the reference to Transitive. Transitive provides global emulators that would be capable of running existing PPC code on a new x86 Mac platform...

[Unix_Beard]

"When?!" I dont think Apple is going to move, it would require a rewrite of a huge chunk of the OS and a large part of any software.

Jobs says OS X already runs on Intel and has run on each of the last 4-5 versions.

[cwoody222]

;) I would be interested since I have a PC in the closet.
How do I send you a PM? (sorry I'm sort of green here)
Martin

Click on the poster's name over on the left, next to their picture (if they have one).

Click "send private message to..."

[schalliol]

So let me get this straight, TiVo is now offering TiVoToGo for Microsoft PDAs and Cell Phones, but we still don't have it for our Macs....

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=581&e=1&u=/nm/20050608/tc_nm/tivo_dc

[jimmymac]

[QUOTE=schalliol]So let me get this straight, TiVo is now offering TiVoToGo for Microsoft PDAs and Cell Phones, but we still don't have it for our Macs....[QUOTE]


Because everybody wants to watch movies on a cell phone.

[cwoody222]

*sigh* :(

Is this even 'news'? Is this really new functionality or just a random press release to talk about something that's been out for awhile?

I see TiVo did a minor redesign of their homepage too - perhaps this is just a summer ad campaign, not really a 'new' feature.

But either way, it sucks that we STILL don't have Mac support or even any further comment since JANUARY!

[Morris Herman]

*sigh* :(

Is this even 'news'? Is this really new functionality or just a random press release to talk about something that's been out for awhile?

I see TiVo did a minor redesign of their homepage too - perhaps this is just a summer ad campaign, not really a 'new' feature.

But either way, it sucks that we STILL don't have Mac support or even any further comment since JANUARY!

I am really angry now. They have TTG for the PDAs and cellphones but not the Mac. What idiots.

They deserve to lose all of the Mac users' business. I will not buy any Tivo products and will bend over backward to get their competitors' products.

Unbelievable!!! No wonder this company is on the edge of viability. They make lousy business decisions.

[hassanpr]

oh i see now thats why they didn't come out with a mac version of Tivotogo its all clear now microsoft is behind it all. I kind of knew it all along.

[ZeoTiVo]

Caution TinFoil hat area


TiVo on the edge of profitability not viability - rather a difference I think. And while I agree they should continue Mac support - I am sure they know how many Mac users they can lose and still keep their bottom line where they want it. I am not seeing the tens of thousands of mac users dropping TiVo that the tinfoil hat seems to permit clear vision on.

and of course the Microsoft conspiracy that started this thread off. How crazy would that be for Microsoft to make Mac users move away from TiVo and clamor for an Apple DVR solution. It would be in Microsofts interest to keep Mac users loyal to TiVo and buy Microsoft PDA's etc..

[Fofer]

The silliest part is TiVo Desktop support for Tiger. It took a user here a few hours to hack in support.

The fact that TiVo, Inc. can't offer an "official" update in a month... now that shows you the real story right there.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

It took a user here a few hours to hack in support.

That would be me -- and the key word in that sentence is "hack." That's very different from "fix." Fixing the actual problems in the actual source, then testing them against something like 3 major OS releases, a few versions of iTunes, and 4 versions of iPhoto could take a bit longer than a few hours.

Just a pet peeve of mine -- I don't appreciate it when someone tells me how long something should take to fix/implement in my code when they've never seen it, know my organizations process requirements, et cetera, so I try to pay others the courtesy of not doing that myself.

[cwoody222]

TiVo could at least post instructions of how users can fix it themselves. Or post a notice saying they're aware of the problem, apologize, and give a rough timeline of when it will be fixed.

Better yet - TiVo should at least offer Tiger users a beta, no warranties implied. Then, a few months later, issue a full-fledged release.

The fact that they've spent Jan - Jun giving Windows users more and more and more and giving Mac users less and less (since Tiger actually made the situation worse) is - to say the least - not encouraging.

[Fofer]

I'm sorry, Dennis, I meant no disrespect to you nor the process. I hold you and your contributions to this forum in the highest regard! And I willfully admit that I don't know enough to make a sweeping generalization like that. For that, I apologize.


That said, as a Mac user, I'm just starting to feel that the lack of updates (publicity or software-wise) from TiVo are a sign of neglect. "Not compatible with Tiger" doesn't tell me enough. Are they working on it? Is there a timeline? All I'm asking for is communication, really.

See, I'm purposefully not updating my only G5 to Tiger as I wait for TiVo's official fix for TiVo Desktop. That precludes me from hosting a 3-way video iChat session with my family, which is why I bought Tiger in the first place. Now if 3 months pass and I still haven't updated, and TiVo hasn't released an update, well then I've wasted time. If they have no intention on updating TiVo Desktop, just let me know so I can plan accordingly. Right now I just feel like I'm waiting for something that might never arrive.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Don't get me wrong -- I'm frustrated by the whole issue as well. I can understand the lack of communication -- after all, I've worked for companies where for quite a long time it was policy to never, ever discuss or even admit the existence of upcoming releases, for a variety of reasons. That doesn't make it any more pleasant to be a customer of one, though.

[ZeoTiVo]

That said, as a Mac user, I'm just starting to feel that the lack of updates (publicity or software-wise) from TiVo are a sign of neglect. "Not compatible with Tiger" doesn't tell me enough. Are they working on it? Is there a timeline? All I'm asking for is communication, really.


this however is the actual problem that TiVo could communicate on

[Fofer]

Fixing the actual problems in the actual source, then testing them against something like 3 major OS releases, a few versions of iTunes, and 4 versions of iPhoto could take a bit longer than a few hours.

Indeed. I'm just forced to wonder, really, if TiVo was even interested enough to plan ahead?

Apple has a Developer's program for a reason, and TiVo could have had access to prereleases of Tiger for many, many months prior to April 29th.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Apple has a Developer's program for a reason, and TiVo could have had access to prereleases of Tiger for many, many months prior to April 29th.

True.

And when in the beta did they break? Had they tested with a late seed and worked, then had the rug pulled out from under them? That's happened to me.

It's all speculation, really. The only thing we have to go on is that when Tiger shipped, TiVoDesktop didn't work. I'm not going to play armchair engineer based on that alone.

[dropd]

True.

And when in the beta did they break? Had they tested with a late seed and worked, then had the rug pulled out from under them? That's happened to me.

It's all speculation, really. The only thing we have to go on is that when Tiger shipped, TiVoDesktop didn't work. I'm not going to play armchair engineer based on that alone.

What's really odd is that the last actual maintenance release of TiVo Desktop was in February 2005, just barely over 2 months before Tiger's release. So mac users had every reason to believe at that time that TiVo was at least going to continue to support the existing Desktop features, regardless of what was going to happen with T2G.

[Fofer]

True.

And when in the beta did they break? Had they tested with a late seed and worked, then had the rug pulled out from under them? That's happened to me.

It's all speculation, really. The only thing we have to go on is that when Tiger shipped, TiVoDesktop didn't work. I'm not going to play armchair engineer based on that alone.


I'd read in another thread that it worked with the earliest developer previews, and broke a couple of months later. IOW, there was plenty of lead time. At what point can we concede we're being neglected?

At this point I'm wondering if TiVo tested at all against *any* build of Tiger. Is it possible that they first learned of the incompatibility from a customer, on April 29th? :confused:

[bedelman]

And when in the beta did they break? Had they tested with a late seed and worked, then had the rug pulled out from under them? That's happened to me.If I recall correctly, TiVo Desktop for Mac OSX stopped working somewhere around the Tiger beta release of September last year. TiVo Desktop did work with the earlier releases.

[mdscott]

If I recall correctly, TiVo Desktop for Mac OSX stopped working somewhere around the Tiger beta release of September last year. TiVo Desktop did work with the earlier releases.

And it could have been frustrating to someone under NDA to Apple having seen that and not being able to pass the information on to TiVo.

mds

[dropd]

At this point I'm wondering if TiVo tested at all against *any* build of Tiger. Is it possible that they first learned of the incompatibility from a customer, on April 29th? :confused:

I believe your supposition is actually correct, from what I have been told.

[Fofer]

I believe your supposition is actually correct, from what I have been told.


Well if that's the case, I think we can safely extract that TiVo-to-Go Mac support ain't exactly around the corner.

No folks, we're being lied to.


Personally I don't think TiVo has any in-house (or contracted) Mac development going on right now *at all.*

[gonzotek]

Well if that's the case, I think we can safely extract that TiVo-to-Go Mac support ain't exactly around the corner.

No folks, we're being lied to.
I'm sorry, but where's the lie? TiVo's only statement towards Mac development is that they are working hard on Macintosh support, but that there is no timeline for a release. How any person could extract anything OTHER than that support is clearly not just around the corner is beyond my understanding. If it were, there'd be a timeline.

Personally I don't think TiVo has any in-house (or contracted) Mac development going on right now *at all.*On this, I'm inclined to agree with you.

[cwoody222]

Well, if they don't have any in-house or contracted Mac development going on right now then that really doesn't mean they're "working hard on Mac support" does it?

Sadly, I 100% agree with Fofer.

I don't think TiVo has a single solitary employee or contracted employee spending a single moment on Mac development. They're written us off complete and they're content with letter HME and 'hackers' like Dennis pick up their slack.

If not, they would have spoken up by now.

It's really, really sad that TiVo's turned around like this. :(

[LeeG]

Sorry I haven't read this whole massive thread, but has anyone noticed this? Go to:

http://www.tivo.com/5.6.asp

and and click on the PDF link under 'events'

or just goto:

http://a423.g.akamai.net/7/423/1788/dfb56e7606497a/www.tivo.com/pdfs/TiVo_Q2_06_Corporate%20Presentation.pdf

for the pdf.

Look at page 10 regarding tivo to go- THAT'S a POWERBOOK!!! I don't think this has anything at all to do with mac support - I am inclined to believe it will never happen. Just poor attention to detail for whoever made that talk-

Lee

[Fofer]

I'm sorry, but where's the lie? TiVo's only statement towards Mac development is that they are working hard on Macintosh support, but that there is no timeline for a release. How any person could extract anything OTHER than that support is clearly not just around the corner is beyond my understanding. If it were, there'd be a timeline.


When I say "lie" I don't mean about Mac TTG support being around the corner. The fact that it's a long way off is obvious, and I haven't ever gleaned otherwise from TiVo's vague statements.



I'm meaning, about Mac support, at all. (IE: in general.) That TiVo values Mac customers nowadays and includes us on their list of priorities.

Fact is, they don't.

[davezatz]

Well, if they don't have any in-house or contracted Mac development going on right now then that really doesn't mean they're "working hard on Mac support" does it?
Maybe they're thinking hard? Given how quick Dennis figured out what was going on and given how long dev copies of Tiger had been floating around and we still don't have updated desktop software or a target, I'm also doubting that Tivo has any dedicated Mac staff. And based on current job openings, Mac dev is a skill or subset rather than an emphasis. It's a bitter pill...

It reminds me of my buddy in NJ. Was dating this girl a year, she doesn't want to date anymore but she says she wants to be friends. So he sends her an chit-chatty email here or there and leaves a chit-chatty voice mail here or there over a period of a month or so (including hey can I get my crap back?)... with absolutely no response. She just doesn't have the cajones to say what she really means: I don't want to speak to you anymore. Either that, or by not committing to the finality of it all, she leaves herself an opening to change her mind later - assuming she hasn't alienatated him so badly.

Frankly, that's what it seems Tivo is doing. By saying nothing, there's still a glimmer of hope for customers and they can hedge their bets until they have the staff and/or desire to make something happen in the Mac world. Meanwhile, they're alienatating their Mac lovers (a minority percentage of the harem) but shareholders are OK because Tivo hasn't closed the door entirely and hasn't generated widespread bad press.

[ZeoTiVo]

Well, if they don't have any in-house or contracted Mac development going on right now then that really doesn't mean they're "working hard on Mac support" does it?
the last working hard on it I recall was from TiVoPony when relaying the CFO "clarification" and that was just a canned message specific to TTG. No one at TiVo has said they are working hard on Tiger support. The only other place I see the phrase "working hard" stated is in the faq that simply has not been updated and should be. The only part of the message TiVo is really sticking too is "there is no timeline" I have to concur with gonzotek that there is no deliberate lies from TiVo on this.



Sadly, I 100% agree with Fofer.

I don't think TiVo has a single solitary employee or contracted employee spending a single moment on Mac development. They're written us off complete and they're content with letter HME and 'hackers' like Dennis pick up their slack.

If not, they would have spoken up by now.

It's really, really sad that TiVo's turned around like this. :(
I think the working hard on it part that TiVo was saying about TTG, taken along with the statement from the CFO "it is too expensive, do not look for it for a couple of years" was working with Intel on getting the tivo en/decryption out of the OS altogether. (my speculation of course) Most likely TiVo found that any MAc OS way to do the decryption resulted in TiVo writing a full player and DVD transcoder themselves which would indeed be too expensive. so they worked hard on alternatives and seem to be looking far forward to a better method altogether for any OS.

of course this means that I agree with the idea that TiVo has no in house mac developers, that it is not a primary skillset being sought by TiVo and that they got caught hard on the Tiger release and the money or resources to fix it is not getting far up the priority list at TiVo.

So I agree it seems a turning point at TiVo in regards to Mac support and the bottom line of expenses/investments/revenue/shareholders :o

[rog]

Zeo, you've given us a bunch of excuses. Maybe they are accurate, maybe they're not.

The point is, if they'd just step up and tell us that they're no longer working on Mac support, instead of giving us these vague canned responses and FAQ entries, then we could end this. Instead, they've left us hanging, with little or no accurate info on the matter. There is NO EXCUSE for that.

[cwoody222]

TiVoPony stated:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2777478&highlight=macintosh#post2777478
"We value Mac enthusiasts who own TiVo DVR's. And as we've previously stated, we're working towards support that would bring TiVoToGo to the Macintosh platform.

We have not yet announced a timeline as to when that service may be available though."

Their FAQ states:
http://www.tivo.com/4.9.19.3.asp#4
"Are TiVoToGo™ transfers available for Apple Macintosh computers?
At this time TiVoToGo transfers are not available for Apple Macintosh computers. TiVo is working hard to enable TiVoToGo features available on TiVo Desktop for Mac. We are currently working on ways to enable playback on Apple Macintosh computers. We will let our customers know in our newsletter as soon as this feature is available. If you do not already subscribe to the newsletter, you can go here to do so. "

If they do not - in fact - have people ACTIVELY WORKING on Mac support RIGHT NOW (which I believe they do not) then how is any of that NOT a flat-out, bold-faced lie?!

[gonzotek]

TiVoPony stated:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2777478&highlight=macintosh#post2777478
"We value Mac enthusiasts who own TiVo DVR's. And as we've previously stated, we're working towards support that would bring TiVoToGo to the Macintosh platform.

We have not yet announced a timeline as to when that service may be available though."

Their FAQ states:
http://www.tivo.com/4.9.19.3.asp#4
"Are TiVoToGo™ transfers available for Apple Macintosh computers?
At this time TiVoToGo transfers are not available for Apple Macintosh computers. TiVo is working hard to enable TiVoToGo features available on TiVo Desktop for Mac. We are currently working on ways to enable playback on Apple Macintosh computers. We will let our customers know in our newsletter as soon as this feature is available. If you do not already subscribe to the newsletter, you can go here to do so. "

If they do not - in fact - have people ACTIVELY WORKING on Mac support RIGHT NOW (which I believe they do not) then how is any of that NOT a flat-out, bold-faced lie?!That's an easy one to answer: Personnel may be working hard to find the right engineer(s) for the job.


Point of fact that I think we can all agree upon is that TiVo needs to communicate much better than it has so far what their intentions towards Mac support are. I don't know about anyone else, but perhaps it's time to start some community-organized program to let TiVo know how many people feel strongly about it's current strategies. Something more than a poll or petition, but along those lines.

[ZeoTiVo]

I suspect this is very close to what TiVo is doing. The files are currently coming off TiVo encrypted, and being decoded by the DirectShow filter supplied by TiVo on the Windows machine. Evidently there isn't a place in the current (or future) Apple OS for such a filter/low-level plug-in.

To be a true plug-in, TiVo would have to write a media player(s) themselves that could run under both Windows and MacOS. That's harder.


This is a very apt observation.

Pony



you need to think about the post immediately following the one about working hard on it. It clearly explained the trouble TiVo has with Mac OS and why some other path would have to be found. The Intel path makes a lot of sense and there would be a lot of hard work involved in that just not work by Mac developers until the tail end when the simple glue code to access whatever the intel chip provides. Does this suck for Mac users, most definitely as it is years out and requires new Mac hardware. Let us not forget that this is the path Apple is going down and has picked out all on its own.

These are not excuses for TiVo but just me giving a perspective from someone not upset directly about all of this since I do not use Macs. It is easy to forget the whole picture and simply say TiVo has lied and they need to tell us what is going on. AND Intel needs to tell us what chips they are putting out and when for the next two years so we can figure out what Apple will start using adn I can buy a PC at just the right time. Hmm but maybe that helps the competiton.
TiVo has a lot of competition out there.

[tonyf3]

Sorry I haven't read this whole massive thread, but has anyone noticed this? Go to:

http://www.tivo.com/5.6.asp

and and click on the PDF link under 'events'

or just goto:

http://a423.g.akamai.net/7/423/1788/dfb56e7606497a/www.tivo.com/pdfs/TiVo_Q2_06_Corporate%20Presentation.pdf

for the pdf.

Look at page 10 regarding tivo to go- THAT'S a POWERBOOK!!! I don't think this has anything at all to do with mac support - I am inclined to believe it will never happen. Just poor attention to detail for whoever made that talk-

Lee

The unmitigated Gall! To show an Apple Powerbook on the TiVo Togo page of David Courtney's presentation. The insensitivity of this shows me that they're just don't get it, and or they just don't care. Way togo on alienating your user base David!

[bluebaron]

I've given up and will be cancelling my subscription next week.

EyeTV seems to have everything I need including HD recording and streaming to my TV. Also Titan TV is free.

[ghouse]

I called TiVo today to ask about this - 1-877-GET-TiVo extension 3. I asked if TiVo togo works on the Mac, he said no.
- Will it ever work on the Mac? "they're working hard on it"
- Do you have any idea when it might be available? "About a year from now"
- Haven't they already been working on it a year? "No, TiVo togo just came out in February. They have been working on it since then"
- Wow. "There was a press release several months ago announcing this."
- Really? Do you know where I can find it? "TiVo is a public company and is required to announce this sort of thing."

Well, huh. And I just spent 299 yesterday on a lifetime subscription for a friend. Well, that sucks.

[davezatz]

Just an FYI those $30 - $50 ElGato EyeTV rebates expire 6/30. The rebate PDFs are linked to the front of ElGato's (http://www.elgato.com) web page. They apply regardless of vendor, and places like eCost have slightly better prices.

http://eimages.ecost.com/prod/369000/369923_lg.jpg

[cwoody222]

Rule #1: customer service reps don't know jack. Especially about the rules relating to publically held companies or features that are "about a year" away.

Rule #2: see rule #1

[Fofer]

Seriously. That CSR probably knows less about Mac TiVo to Go then I do.

[bluebaron]

Well Eyehome has arrived and works perfectly. I'm working in the US for a few years, but from the UK. Got an EyeTV 410 over there recording my Brit TV shows, encoding them to MP4 and then sending them to my mac over here.

All play back perfectly over my wireless network from my Imac G5. Will now order the Eye HD receiver to do the same with stuff I want to record in the US and then will cancel Tivo.

This thing is great.....shame Tivo couldn't manage it.

[chessplayer]

Well Eyehome has arrived and works perfectly. I'm working in the US for a few years, but from the UK. Got an EyeTV 410 over there recording my Brit TV shows, encoding them to MP4 and then sending them to my mac over here.

All play back perfectly over my wireless network from my Imac G5. Will now order the Eye HD receiver to do the same with stuff I want to record in the US and then will cancel Tivo.

This thing is great.....shame Tivo couldn't manage it. EyeHome is the reverse of TiVoToGo though, right? Watching stuff that's on your Mac on your TV? How well does it work with various file formats? My only concern with getting one before was whether it was extremely picky about which avi files it will play etc.

Still, an Eyehome and EyeTV in tandem sounds like a great combination. At least el gato is genuinely supporting the Mac, instead of pretending that they care about Mac users like TiVo.

On another note, I can confirm that some TiVo CSRs are still claiming that TTG for the Mac is coming "very soon". :( Shouldn't they be instructed not to say things like that, when it's becoming increasingly obvious that TiVo does not intend to release TTG for the Mac any time soon, if ever? How about being a little more forthright, instead of all the content-free, vague declarations?

[tonyf3]

Originally Posted by Chessplayer:
"At least el gato is genuinely supporting the Mac, instead of pretending that they care about Mac users like TiVo"

Well said Chessplayer. TiVo's credibility with me as a customer and Mac user is "0"
I'm waiting to see if Apple actually does their own PVR. If not, it's looking more like I'll be turning my old G4 tower into a media server for Elgato Eyehome. I think you can ebay old tivo's, right?

[tonyf3]

Month 7. Hope they're still working hard on TiVo togo for Mac......I doubt it. Happy 4th.

[wupher]

After reading this rather long thread, alright, skimming this rather long thread, The most obvious question that occurs to me is: are there any Tivo staff participating in this forum that can give us some real info about the progress of TivoToGo for the Mac?

I may be asking an idiotic question, so please pardon my inexperience, but in most other forums that are product related, usually particpants from the company that makes the product are present and usually quite active. Is that not the case here?

Thanks,

-wupher

[SavMan]

After reading this rather long thread, alright, skimming this rather long thread, The most obvious question that occurs to me is: are there any Tivo staff participating in this forum that can give us some real info about the progress of TivoToGo for the Mac?

I may be asking an idiotic question, so please pardon my inexperience, but in most other forums that are product related, usually particpants from the company that makes the product are present and usually quite active. Is that not the case here?

The long and short of it is, they have no update. The TiVo employees here are either in the dark as to what is happening with Mac support, or they are towing the company line which is, "make no comment, stall a lot, and we'll see how much money we can squeeze out of the Mac users before they leave in disgust." TiVo's CFO has already noted that T2G for Mac is not being worked on because it's too expensive, a comment which TiVo has never been able to defend, other than TiVoPony claiming his DIRECT QUOTE was taken out of context.

Do yourself a favor and switch over to the cableco box. More space, extraordinarily cheaper, no repeated digital-to-analog conversions, no IR blasters, OnDemand, PPV, dual-tuners, fully unencrypted and DRM'd firewire interface for recording straight to your Mac, etc. I've got one more month on my lease in my apartment (with integrated cable) and then I'm moving someplace else and getting a Comcast box.

An added value: if Apple ever gets off their ass and makes a killer DVR, I don't have a hunk of useless hardware on my hand (remember that TiVo breaks your Series2 if you don't pay the subscription fee), I'll just tell the cableco to take it away.

[geekmedic]

I'm surprised Apple hasn't jumped on the DVR bandwagon. The Mac Mini would make the PERFECT home theatre Mac!

All the multimedia stuff is already on there (iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie, etc.), with exception to a DVR.

I wonder if Steve is planning anything in Cupertino?

[rog]

I'm surprised Apple hasn't jumped on the DVR bandwagon. The Mac Mini would make the PERFECT home theatre Mac!

All the multimedia stuff is already on there (iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie, etc.), with exception to a DVR.

I wonder if Steve is planning anything in Cupertino?

He probably is... here's the old Cringely article:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20050120.html

In short, there's been no shortage of speculation on this topic. It makes sense for Apple to start thinking about digital movie distribution as the growth of iTunes/iPod continues to expand.

[porovaara]

Still no news?

Good game TiVo.

[rog]

I'm surprised Apple hasn't jumped on the DVR bandwagon. The Mac Mini would make the PERFECT home theatre Mac!

All the multimedia stuff is already on there (iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie, etc.), with exception to a DVR.

I wonder if Steve is planning anything in Cupertino?

And here's another excellent article:

http://arstechnica.com/columns/mac/mac-20050710.ars

Perhaps there is a video iPod on the way before Christmas!

[davezatz]

Perhaps there is a video iPod on the way before Christmas!
Like the CableCard HiDef Tivo, I'll believe it when I see it...

[tchwojko]

I'll believe it when I see it...

Yeah, I'm sure they're "working hard on it." :D

[rog]

Personally, I hate iPods. When I see a 90 year old grandma pimpin' an iPod Shuffle, or a street kid asking me for money for a bite to eat with white earbuds coming out of his tattered clothes... I just cringe. We're living the iLife and it's driving me crazy.

The executive secretaries around here have gotten into the iPod craze now. That really makes me think these things are cool. :rolleyes:

[tchwojko]

Personally, I hate iPods. When I see a 90 year old grandma pimpin' an iPod Shuffle, or a street kid asking me for money for a bite to eat with white earbuds coming out of his tattered clothes... I just cringe. We're living the iLife and it's driving me crazy.

The executive secretaries around here have gotten into the iPod craze now. That really makes me think these things are cool. :rolleyes:

That shows you hate the iPod image. What do you dislike about the device itself?

[rog]

That shows you hate the iPod image. What do you dislike about the device itself?

Yep, you're right. I don't really dislike anything about the device itself... just the fad/image/craze.

Excuse my rant. Sometimes it's best to just ignore me.

[davezatz]

I don't really dislike anything about the device itself... just the fad/image/craze.
Isn't it ironic that Apple used to be counter-culture, a niche market really... but now they're so mainstream folks are rebelling. Think Different indeed. ;) Personally, I'm lusting after the iRiver H10 6GB model though I don't know what I need it for.

[jasonsewell]

I'm a Macintosh user. I gave up waiting for Tivo to introduce TivoToGo for the Mac, so I bought an old PC and put Windows XP on it. I installed TiVo Desktop 2.1 and purchased and installed Sonic Cinemaster Codec as per Tivo's recommendation.

I downloaded a few episodes of my favorite shows, and attempted to play them on the PC. They looked great except that they were UPSIDE-DOWN AND BACKWARDS!.

Tivo's tech support suggested that it's a codec or a OS problem and wasn't able to help, so I asked them to cancel my service. The phone rep offered me two free months, but I declined. I made sure to indicate I was canceling my subscription because of a lack of Macintosh support.

He put me on hold for a couple of minutes and came back with a pretty sweet counter-offer. He offered to reduce my monthly subscription fee from $12 per month to $6 per month in perpetuity. So I gave in. For a $72 per year savings, I'll put some more effort into solving the upside-down and backwards problem, and resign myself to using XP for TivoToGo.

[Fofer]

Wow.

That's just truly pathetic.

TiVo, we hardly knew ye.

[Weaselboy]

Update Tiger to 10.4.2 and Tivo Desktop 1.9.1 works.

See here (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=249083).

[tonyf3]

Update Tiger to 10.4.2 and Tivo Desktop 1.9.1 works.

See here (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=249083).

That's great. I haven't upgraded to Tiger because a vender we use (Pinnacle Systems) Hasn't updated there app to support Quicktime 7.0.1 for Windows yet. But it's nice to hear some functionality has been restored.

Some stuff I've come across on the web suggests that an iPod Video device is in the works. Either with an AV doc, or with H264 codec support 802.11g transfers. To what? I wonder. Maybe a modified Mac Mini PVR. Conjecture?...for sure. At this rate we're more likely to see something like this from Apple before we have full Mac support from TiVo. Just wishful thinking from a paying TiVo subscriber who's very tired of waiting.

[MerlinMacuser]

If you have Tiger (10.4.x), you have access to a whole bunch of cool little applications called widgets. There is one that lets you view your networked Tivo's Now Playing menu...no functionality, yet but it is very cool to see.

[rog]

If you have Tiger (10.4.x), you have access to a whole bunch of cool little applications called widgets. There is one that lets you view your networked Tivo's Now Playing menu...no functionality, yet but it is very cool to see.

I never could get that widget to work for me. Even though I coaxed TiVoDesktop 1.9 into working on the first versions of Tiger (10.4.0 and 10.4.1), not to mention Galleon, I never could get the freakin' widget to work.

I suspect it's because I have a huge (300 GB) drive in the TiVo and a large number of recorded shows. It may have a problem parsing all that data.

[funkdaddy]

I never could get that widget to work for me. Even though I coaxed TiVoDesktop 1.9 into working on the first versions of Tiger (10.4.0 and 10.4.1), not to mention Galleon, I never could get the freakin' widget to work.

I suspect it's because I have a huge (300 GB) drive in the TiVo and a large number of recorded shows. It may have a problem parsing all that data.

If you're talking about this the NowPlaying widget at DashboardDev, I'm the widget's developer, if you can send me the details of your problem I can take a look. I've been able to show 75 or so shows fine, how many do you have on the 300hr monster? And the screen can only show so many....

[gonzotek]

Morac has documented the general problem and method to safely retrieve large lists here:
A warning for programmers who retrieve the TiVo's XML file (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=235563)

[funkdaddy]

Morac has documented the general problem and method to safely retrieve large lists here: A warning for programmers who retrieve the TiVo's XML file


Well currently my widget will overflow most screens with anything over 50, I really designed it to show the latest stuff on there, I even say in the prefs to not exceed 100 items, so I don't think that's it. My Tivo was flaky for acouple days until an update as the xml file and web interface was unavailable.

[rog]

If you're talking about this the NowPlaying widget at DashboardDev, I'm the widget's developer, if you can send me the details of your problem I can take a look. I've been able to show 75 or so shows fine, how many do you have on the 300hr monster? And the screen can only show so many....

Cool, thanks for popping in!

Here's a screenshot of my widget's error message:

http://xmlareas.com/images/widget.jpg

Notice how freakin' hot it is in Portland today! ;)

I get this error after the widget displays "Retrieving your TiVo's XML File" for almost exactly 30 seconds.

To answer your question, I have 189 shows.

I do realize that there is an option in your widget for the number of shows to display at once. I have that on 25.

I've checked, double-checked and then checked again on my MAK. It's correct. I even used the "Get MAK from tivo.com" link in the widget's options -- it's the same MAK that my TiVo displays (and the same one Galleon uses), so I think the problem lies elsewhere.

Thanks again for the help.

[funkdaddy]

That's an old version... try downloading 1.1 from dashboarddev d o t com. I'd post a link, but for some reason I can't on this board yet. Try the newer version and let me know if it works. If not email me at jazzflute a t gmail d o t com and I'll help you through it.

Can you get to you TiVo's web pages or XML files?

[rog]

That's an old version... try downloading 1.1 from dashboarddev d o t com.

I will do so shortly. Ironically I'm on a PC now. Curses!

I'd post a link, but for some reason I can't on this board yet.

Only two more posts my friend. Welcome aboard, by the way. :up:

Try the newer version and let me know if it works. If not email me at jazzflute a t gmail d o t com and I'll help you through it.

Can you get to you TiVo's web pages or XML files?

When I *was* on the mac I tried the web interface via Safari (http://192.168.x.x), and also retrieved a copy of the XML data via the "Better Now Playing List" xhtml interface for Firefox... so I've covered those bases already. It all works fine.

I'll definitely try the latest version of the widget, and will email any other details.

Looks like a great widget, so I look forward to getting it working. :)

[rog]

Ok, first off: http://www.dashboardwidgets.com/ rocks. I had no idea about this site.

You can go straight here for the actual download section (I found the site a bit weird to navigate at first):

http://www.dashboardwidgets.com/showcase/

More to the point: the newer version (1.1) of the Now Playing widget works great! It is really, really slick. Seriously; this is one of the best 3rd party widgets I've seen in terms of polish.

Thanks!

[funkdaddy]

Nice. Glad it worked, I'm still working on some more features, like being able to roll up the panel to leave room for other widgets and version checking. Once my wrists stop hurting (rss), I'll be able to put some more time into it!

[cinthia]

Let me know how it works out with the cable company box when you try to:

a) Play music or view photos on it that are stored on your Mac

NONSENSE
Eye TV has a simple product that does everything TIVO does, works with cable, sends music and photos, bla bla bla...

b) Get any kind of recorded content off of it
WE CAN"T DO THAT NOW WITH TIVO!!!!

I know it's been said a million times but Mac's are about 4% of the computing world, since TiVo is a multimedia company it's possible their user base is more like 10 maybe even 15% Mac.


This is clearly something that could be taken care of easily.
PC users undoubtedly are the masses but fact is, more self employed & entrepreneurs use Mac. including 99% of the music, television and movie industry - writers, producers, editers... Tivo owes most of it's existence to the independently creative people who provide the content for their programs. They need to wake up and realize they are literally biting the hand that feeds them.

There was a time when Tivo was IT - but no more. There are so many devices that do the same thing now. The only hope they have is to rely on loyalty. And irritating or not, Mac users are LOYAL. Like the former poster, I also own 5 Tivo2s, have given no less than 10 as wedding & graduation gifts since they came out. No more.
I'm tired of searching these posts to figure out how to access the content by IP. I'm sick of the PC laptop I purchased JUST so I could run Tivo2 - (and if any of you guys are thinking that would be a great solution - it isn't! WindowsXP is still a wannabe Mac system that sucks - not to mention the VIRUS problem)

For me, I'm done waiting. If Tivo had any intention of doing the right thing, they'd have done it by now. I yanked the Tivo out of my last movie to avoid giving them undeserved exposure and I'm yanking them out of everywhere else as soon as I figure out which of these MANY other devices are better. (Pioneer just came out with a really good one - check it out)

[Justin Thyme]

This is clearly something that could be taken care of easily.If it is so clear, then perhaps you would put together the development plan, addressing the legal costs and the profit model.

If it is so clear, then you would sure to be awarded a significant remuneration from Tivo for showing them the way to profitability.

Or perhaps you thought that Tivo was a charity organization. Perhaps they should also not be neglecting the 58 million Windows 98 users, or the 18 to 50 million linux users. If not charity, then what- oh yeah loyalty. Say Tivo came out first with TTG on the Mac, and bent over backwards to support it. Tell me how long do you suppose mac users would stay with the Tivo when Jobs rolls out an Apple DVR? Be honest. Yeah right. So much for loyalty.

If TTG was some kind of wild success and that 1 in 3 people buying a Tivo were buying it because of TTG, then that's 33% of 4% of 1.3 million the current SA Tivo base. Let's see. 17,000 people.

Yeah. Real huge payoffs there. I get it. Very clear. Thanks for straightening us all out.

[chessplayer]

The support page still says "TiVo is working hard to make the TiVoToGo™ feature available on TiVo Desktop for Mac," as do the CSRs.

Does anyone really believe this is true any more?

If TiVo considers its Mac users insignificant as a business decision, they should simply say so, not string us along like this.

Meanwhile, I just bought a DVD Recorder at Costco for under $150, and will use that while I wait to decide whether to buy an eyeTV or wait for an Apple or other Mac-friendly PVR. The DVD Recorder is easy to use, works in conjunction with TiVo, VCRs, etc., and makes it easy to edit out commercials or put together favorite clips from different shows. So, that is working well so far.

[Fofer]

Meanwhile, I just bought a DVD Recorder at Costco for under $150 ... makes it easy to edit out commercials or put together favorite clips from different shows. So, that is working well so far.

which one?

[Justin Thyme]

Either wait for Jobs or wait for Tivo.

Or don't wait and either get a mini with EyeTv or a garage sale PC decorated with garlic.

Make up your mind, or get righteously indignant about corporations like apple or tivo being less than candid about exactly when they are going to be able to please you.

Life is rough.

[TheSlyBear]

Or perhaps you thought that Tivo was a charity organization.

What you and apparently TiVo don't understand is that it's not really about the number of subscribers or even the present-day bottom line. It's all about mind-share. TiVo once had it in droves -- now they're rapidly losing it. And while it's not just the Mac debacles, they're not an insignificant contributor.

Even it the Mac community is only 15% of their customer base (only? that's not a trivial percentage), it's a highly influential base. I think TiVo is making a rather large mistake by underestimating this portion of their customer base.

[Justin Thyme]

What few people in enthusiast circles realize is that most people could care less about any of these features which we spit blood about.

They could care even less about mind share. If it is a DVR and does 75% what brand X does, and it is free then what the heck.

As far as most people are concerned, a DVR is a commodity that is oftentimes given free by a cable or satellite service.

Mind share means squat to the general population.

Let's be honest. TTG is generating negligible additional subscriptions. So how would expanding the number of platforms change that fact?

In the face of DVR giveaways by the cablecos, CE companies are having a very tough time making any money on standalone dvrs regardless how much buzz there is about their product.

Current management is very much in a mode of accelerating efforts on projects which generate money, not those that spend money or scarce enginieering resources on projects that have symbolic but not financial significance.

[chessplayer]

which one? I got a
Lite-On LVW-5005 (http://www.liteonit.com/DC/english/lvw_5005/lvw_5005_2.htm) for $129 (plus tax) at Costco. Reviews I found were mixed, but for the price I thought it was well worth a try. I've made two 6-hour DVDs so far (with shows that weren't recorded in great quality to begin with), and it's worked perfectly and is very easy to use. I'm also using it as a DVD player, and it's working well for that too.

[TheSlyBear]

Mind share means squat to the general population.

Don't know much about marketing, eh? Mindshare is the general population.

Whenever I used to talk about TiVo to non-techies, I used to get reactions like "I've heard great things...". Now, I get "Aren't they kind of washed up?". The perception of TiVo in the general public is changing.

Which upsets me greatly because I still love my TiVos (I personally could give a rat's patootie about TiVoToGo).

[Justin Thyme]

I heard Comcast's DVRs were crap. I also heard they were free. Wrap your marketing mind around that.

Tivo's mindshare means squat to the general population. Most people could care less about what the buzz is about this or that product when they are confronted with this marketing concept so brutal and fundamental that you may not be familiar with it:

Free.

It's not real complicated.

It has nothing to do with the faddish word of mouth of what's in and what is old hat. If Ore-Ida russet potatoes are old hat but the potatoes are free, I think you and I know there will be few in the crowd who are slaves to fashion.

You are misapplying the rules of the technology fashion statement world to a rougher world ruled by much more brutal marketing techniques.

The newly adopted advertising profit model requires access to the largest set of eyeballs. The focus is on Tivo insinuating itself into channels that will much more agressively distribute its platform.

That means enticing the carriers with features concerning advertisements, not attempting to entice users. And how better to entice masses of users than porting last years feature that flopped to some obscure personal computer platform.

[thehand]

I assume you by obscure you mean "better" computer platform.

[Justin Thyme]

Of course it is better in most respects. That's not the issue. If people aren't using a feature that only works on the more common platform, then that is a pretty good indication that the market response will be the same on more obscure platforms.

Evaluated from the perspective of whether TTG drives sales, TTG failed. That may miss the long term value of TTG, but at this point the evaluation management is most interested in is "Where is the money?"

[Austin Bike]

You're absolutely right on the 4% number being BS, it's closer to 2.5-3% tops.

This is not to knock the macs, they're fine systems, but instead, it's simply the wakeup call for mac owners. When you choose you platform, any platform (including a PC), you make a decision about things. You decide what you will and, more importantly, will not have support for.

To say that Tivo is negligent for focusing on the 3% of the market is really not the issue. We're all glad you're happy with your mac and its great that there are things that you can rub our noses in (like viruses), but stop for a second and understand that the virus writers and tivo are identical:

THEY BOTH WRITE PROGRAMS FOR THE PC PLATFORM BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE THE USERS ARE.

A friend used to rave about linux because it was "immune" to viruses. But he got one recently - because more people are using linux virus writers are taking notice.

Be careful of what you wish for.

Be happy with your mac, you made a lifestyle choice and you chose the platform - every platform has warts.


This is clearly something that could be taken care of easily.
PC users undoubtedly are the masses but fact is, more self employed & entrepreneurs use Mac. including 99% of the music, television and movie industry - writers, producers, editers... Tivo owes most of it's existence to the independently creative people who provide the content for their programs. They need to wake up and realize they are literally biting the hand that feeds them.

There was a time when Tivo was IT - but no more. There are so many devices that do the same thing now. The only hope they have is to rely on loyalty. And irritating or not, Mac users are LOYAL. Like the former poster, I also own 5 Tivo2s, have given no less than 10 as wedding & graduation gifts since they came out. No more.
I'm tired of searching these posts to figure out how to access the content by IP. I'm sick of the PC laptop I purchased JUST so I could run Tivo2 - (and if any of you guys are thinking that would be a great solution - it isn't! WindowsXP is still a wannabe Mac system that sucks - not to mention the VIRUS problem)

For me, I'm done waiting. If Tivo had any intention of doing the right thing, they'd have done it by now. I yanked the Tivo out of my last movie to avoid giving them undeserved exposure and I'm yanking them out of everywhere else as soon as I figure out which of these MANY other devices are better. (Pioneer just came out with a really good one - check it out)

[rog]

Yes, yes, yes... blah, blah, blah. We've heard all this before, several times in this very thread in fact.

All a lot of us are asking for is for TiVo to step up and communicate their plans clearly.

Not supporting Macs is one thing. Lying about Mac support is another thing altogether.

[foureyedave19]

Yes, yes, yes... blah, blah, blah. We've heard all this before, several times in this very thread in fact.

All a lot of us are asking for is for TiVo to step up and communicate their plans clearly.

Not supporting Macs is one thing. Lying about Mac support is another thing altogether.


EXACTLY, whilst I personally would be keen on having the ability to archive a favorite show of mine for later viewing (or possibly sharing with a select few) ... that isn't the reason I continually return to this thread. I come back to find out whether any date has been released, knowing this is a long shot, but mainly to see what others think about the lack of communication and the blatant lies TiVo has inflicted upon us, NOT to read Justin Thyme (cool name buddy) enter into a thread, where I am willing to assume he is not appreciated or wanted, and talk s**t. Why don't you go troll so other thread...

[davezatz]

NOT to read Justin Thyme (cool name buddy) enter into a thread, where I am willing to assume he is not appreciated or wanted, and talk s**t.
I'm a Mac owner and I appreciate him. Now let's have a group hug and sing camp fire songs. ;)

[mattman]

Kumbaya....

[ZeoTiVo]

Not supporting Macs is one thing. Lying about Mac support is another thing altogether.


man I hold off this thread for a while and come back and people are still claiming TiVo lied about Mac support. non communicative is what TiVo is.

anyone care to actually find a lie and quote it. Just one place where Tivo said they would deliver TTG for Mac along some timeframe. heck I will even take a season like summer or fall. Or actually where they said anything other than "working hard on it", which is a vauge subjective phrase that can neither be proved or disproved by anyone not working at TiVo and never a very hopeful phrase either.

Mac users are understandably upset that Mac support is slipping away at TiVo and thus gets you cranky and prone to type away but there was no lie from TiVo, they simply closed the door without saying a thing.

flame suit getting kind of tight, have to let it out a little :rolleyes:

[Fofer]

C'mon. TiVo's not working on Mac anything. We all know it. They just haven't come out and said it. They're just stringing us along like a backup date for the prom.

[rog]

ZeoTiVo... this is what I call "turd polishing". Do it all you want; have fun with it.

http://img13.exs.cx/img13/4370/TurdPolish2.jpg

Can't we just call a spade a spade?

[cinthia]

Justin "methinks thou doth protest too much". Black Folks are roughly 20% of the population. Asians even less. Would it make sense morally or financially to ignore huge sections of the population? Of course not.

bootedbear is right. It's about mindshare. There was a time Tivo was the generic name for PVRs, like Kleenex and but no more. That's something no amount of money can buy.
Tivo need to widen their focus. They are sabotaging themselves - missing the big picture.

[cinthia]

man I hold off this thread for a while and come back and people are still claiming TiVo lied about Mac support. non communicative is what TiVo is.
...

Mac users are understandably upset that Mac support is slipping away at TiVo and thus gets you cranky and prone to type away but there was no lie from TiVo, they simply closed the door without saying a thing.

...

Yeah, that passive aggressive stuff does make people crazy. Cowards!

[chessplayer]

ZeoTiVo... this is what I call "turd polishing". Do it all you want; have fun with it. I like that phrase, very apt (nice picture too). :)

Does anyone here still believe that TiVo is working hard on TTG for the Mac support, as they claim on their website and as the CSRs routinely insist?

Yeah yeah, it depends on the definition of "working hard." And it depends on the definition of "is." :confused:

Please, let's not debate such semantics....

The bottom line is that many of us here would just like some honest, straightforward communication from TiVo rather than the vague, evasive, and misleading statements we've gotten. If TiVo really respects their Mac customers, as they claim to, it's a small thing to ask.

[Fofer]

The bottom line is that many of us here would just like some honest, straightforward communication from TiVo rather than the vague, evasive, and misleading statements we've gotten. If TiVo really respects their Mac customers, as they claim to, it's a small thing to ask.


Heh. Well, what do you expect them to say at this point?

"Okay, Mac users, you caught us. We have no clue where to even begin. Mac support for TTG is so off our radar at this point it's not even funny. We're struggling to stay afloat and can't even get a handle on your TiVo Desktop/HMO software anymore. We let our Mac contractors go about a year ago, after DTV dumped us and it looked like we were dead. So please, get off our backs. We have bigger things to worry about."



Of course I'm saying this in jest, but I refuse to believe they're "working hard" on Mac TTG when they haven't even made a definitive statement/update on TiVo Desktop/HMO compatibility for our current OS ("Tiger.")

I think in TiVo corporate speak, "working hard on Mac support," in actuality means "working hard to become a viable company with a future so we have the resources to look into to the possibility of supporting Mac one day."

I believe they've looked into the possibility of some QuickTime-based DRM, and perhaps spoken to Apple about it. But do I think they have programmers "working hard" on it? No.

[Justin Thyme]

Black Folks are roughly 20% of the population. Asians even less. Would it make sense morally or financially to ignore huge sections of the population? Of course not. Your annoyance with not getting a feature is nothing similar to the death, torture and lifelong misery multiplied by the billions who have felt racism. How dare you make this comparison.

For cripes sake- it is just a computer. Does your self pity have no bounds? You chose a trendy computer that many companies cannot afford to support. Just because a person has a different color of skin does not mean they can't do the same job. If a computer has a different CPU and OS, it certainly cannot do the same job without a great deal of expense.

I saw no response to my argument to bootedbear. If mindshare matters then why are so many more people using Comcast DVRs?

TTG support is not changing the buying decisions of anything more than a handful of zealot/geeks.

A business is about taking in more money in than it spends. Spending money on expanding the support of TTG that did not bring in any money makes zero business sense.

Zero.

You would rather see Tivo die so you could have your feature for a few brief years. Then you would be left in a wasteland of Carrier supplied DVRs.

If you hate Tivo so much- get any of the PVR programs for the Mac.

Be an adult and stop whining. Do something. Or nail yourself on a cardboard cross and make a spectacle of yourself.

Pathetic what zealotry does to folks.

[timg]

Justin Thyme - why are you in this thread? Do you not have a life?

I have only Macs at home and my annoyance with Tivo as a company stems not from the lack of TivoToGo that works on my platform of choice, but instead in the lack of communication and straight answers on the subject.

I've gotten plenty of use out of my Tivo before TivoToGo existed and it still performs the same functions now, although these days the menus have been slowed down quite a bit with the new software version. All I want is for Tivo to respect me as a customer. If they are going to bring TivoToGo to the Mac platform, tell me and give me a time frame. If they are not, then tell me that. Their comments on the subject to date are nothing more than insulting.

[Justin Thyme]

Justin Thyme - why are you in this thread? Do you not have a life?
I get it. This is the "everyone is supposed to agree" thread, and no one is supposed to make rational arguments thread, much less respond to dissenting arguments when they are presented, other than to use peer pressure, and parrot over and over and over and over and over the same phrases.

Case in point.

[rog]

I get it. This is the "everyone is supposed to agree" thread, and no one is supposed to make rational arguments thread, much less respond to dissenting arguments when they are presented, other than to use peer pressure, and parrot over and over and over and over and over the same phrases.

Case in point.

I think you're getting it! ;)

[foureyedave19]

If we say "go away" enough times... it actually works!

[tonyf3]

Justin Thyme - why are you in this thread? Do you not have a life?

I have only Macs at home and my annoyance with Tivo as a company stems not from the lack of TivoToGo that works on my platform of choice, but instead in the lack of communication and straight answers on the subject.

I've gotten plenty of use out of my Tivo before TivoToGo existed and it still performs the same functions now, although these days the menus have been slowed down quite a bit with the new software version. All I want is for Tivo to respect me as a customer. If they are going to bring TivoToGo to the Mac platform, tell me and give me a time frame. If they are not, then tell me that. Their comments on the subject to date are nothing more than insulting.


You've encapsulated my point from post #1 when I started this thread. Thank You!
As for everyone else....If you get it, great. If you don't...then have a nice day.

[hargreae]

anyone care to actually find a lie and quote it. Just one place where Tivo said they would deliver TTG for Mac along some timeframe. heck I will even take a season like summer or fall. Or actually where they said anything other than "working hard on it", which is a vauge subjective phrase that can neither be proved or disproved by anyone not working at TiVo and never a very hopeful phrase either.

Mac users are understandably upset that Mac support is slipping away at TiVo and thus gets you cranky and prone to type away but there was no lie from TiVo, they simply closed the door without saying a thing.
When you call TiVo up and ask 'Will the upcoming TiVoToGo functionality be compatible with Macs' and they say 'Yes,' then I think it's reasonable to assume it will be. When the feature arrives and it isn't compatible, was their former statement a lie? We will probably never know, since they may have intended to make it Mac-compatible when the question was asked. The point is that they told us we'd get it and we didn't. Then they said they were "working hard" on it. Six months later, we've had no update. They have everything to gain by pretending that it's coming. At the least, they're being "non-communicative," at the worst, they're being deceptive.

It doesn't help when they upgrade our software to 7.1 in order to provide TiVoToGo functionality and it actually makes the TiVo software slow and buggy.

[Unix_Beard]

Its not as if asking for Mac support (or expecting it based on the past) is going out on a limb. Look, there are two viable consumer desktops available - TWO. MacOS and Windows. One would hope a company like Tivo which built itself on technological excellence would have the wherewithal to support the two platforms like the multitude of other companies.

And to borrow a word that Justin Thyme apparently bookmarked in his thesaurus, Tivo would do well to bolster its technological credentials by leveraging the Mac zealotry. Zealotry for tech isn't a bad thing, you know. Zealotry means a product is good enough to swear by. You can find that in common with Apple and Tivo.

[Fofer]

You can find that in common with Apple and Tivo.


Heh.

Not so much these days... at least not with TiVo! I've noticed that even the most ardent of supporters (myself included) seem especially open to the alternatives being hyped around the corner.

Hmm... I wonder if this is all related, and if it will add up to anything in the end.


"Things that make you go... hmmm....."

[Justin Thyme]

Its not as if asking for Mac support (or expecting it based on the past) is going out on a limb.
Of course you are going way out on a limb. It makes so much sense to you why Tivo should do it, but if it were your money, and it was your business that had not made money for the last 8 years, I will wager you would not spend it on a feature that didn't deliver you any profit from windows users.

Zealotry is a particularly apt term when discussing certain jihadists and mac fanatics who magnify the injuries they imagine they have suffered, and react with actions far out of proportion to the injury suffered. My comments were confined to a minority of mac owners who have some dependency between their sense of their personal identity and their product choices- in particular their computer.

I think the vast majority of tivo and mac owners don't have this weakness of character.

But if it were true that Mac Zealotry was much more widespread as you suggest, then the obvious question is, what good is it to Tivo? Even if Tivo had done everything "right" to curry the favor of this group of individuals- how many of such zealots would not dump Tivo when Apple comes out with their DVR product?

So we return to the most important question that none of you want to address, even though it is so simple:

Where is the money?

TTG for windows didn't deliver any measurable increase in subscriptions, so what reason is there to believe that the experiment would be any different for Mac?

The way to delivering features that do not produce revenue is to generate good profits that can support such projects. That is a hard task. And Tivo is working hard on it.

[Unix_Beard]

Nonsense. TTG is simply a value-add, just another reason to buy Tivo'd technology. How many Mac users have forgone the purchase of a Tivo during the past 6 months (and not because of TTG per se but Tivo's problems just keeping the normal HMO functionality)? I'm one individual that bought a Tivo explicitly for its home media functionality - if I were to buy on DVR technology alone way back when, I would have bought a ReplayTV. But I was hoodwinked, sucked in as a consumer who purchased -Mac support- with my Tivo. Within a year, it was gone. :( And now its back in HMO at least.

As for the cost of doing business, that is not my concern. As a consumer, I only have so much disposable income. I currently do business with Cingular, XM, my ISP, my cable company, eMusic.com, Netflix, HBO, Verizon, and other monthly subscriptions. If I had to worry about everyone's business model as it related to my satisfaction as a customer, I'd have no time to enjoy the services. If one of the companies I do business with drops the ball, I move on and spend my money elsewhere. As it stands now, I have two lifetime Tivo units. I will not buy another one until Tivo recommits itself to the platform. As I noted, there are only two platforms - spending extra on Apple support is made up on the Windows side. Its a balance. Please don't cry to me about business plans - I don't care.

Alienating a user base that is both tech savvy and not afraid to spend money is not a wise idea. Someone posted in this thread very early on that catering to the Mac crowd creates tech buzz. The Apple community creates buzz that can be heard above the continuous drone coming from Redmond.

[Justin Thyme]

As for the cost of doing business, that is not my concern. That's exactly my point. It is Tivo Corp.'s concern.

This is not a charity. This is a business. TTG was an experiment that did not deliver revenues from a very large user base of Windows users.

You have provided no evidence that it would be any different on the Mac platform.

[tonyf3]

Nonsense. TTG is simply a value-add, just another reason to buy Tivo'd technology. How many Mac users have forgone the purchase of a Tivo during the past 6 months (and not because of TTG per se but Tivo's problems just keeping the normal HMO functionality)? I'm one individual that bought a Tivo explicitly for its home media functionality - if I were to buy on DVR technology alone way back when, I would have bought a ReplayTV. But I was hoodwinked, sucked in as a consumer who purchased -Mac support- with my Tivo. Within a year, it was gone. :( And now its back in HMO at least.

As for the cost of doing business, that is not my concern. As a consumer, I only have so much disposable income. I currently do business with Cingular, XM, my ISP, my cable company, eMusic.com, Netflix, HBO, Verizon, and other monthly subscriptions. If I had to worry about everyone's business model as it related to my satisfaction as a customer, I'd have no time to enjoy the services. If one of the companies I do business with drops the ball, I move on and spend my money elsewhere. As it stands now, I have two lifetime Tivo units. I will not buy another one until Tivo recommits itself to the platform. As I noted, there are only two platforms - spending extra on Apple support is made up on the Windows side. Its a balance. Please don't cry to me about business plans - I don't care.

Alienating a user base that is both tech savvy and not afraid to spend money is not a wise idea. Someone posted in this thread very early on that catering to the Mac crowd creates tech buzz. The Apple community creates buzz that can be heard above the continuous drone coming from Redmond.


So True. Then the tech savvy user base moves on. If Apple's PVR comes out tomorrow and it meets or exceeds Tivos functionality.....it's all over. I'm gone. Tivo's on ebay.

[Unix_Beard]

That's exactly my point. It is Tivo Corp.'s concern.

This is not a charity. This is a business. TTG was an experiment that did not deliver revenues from a very large user base of Windows users.

You have provided no evidence that it would be any different on the Mac platform.

So I take it you would advise Tivo not to add any additional functionality that would not quantify into new accounts? For instance, should Tivo not bother developing intelligent scheduling between multiple household Tivos? Why not just threadcrap on the entire Tivo Suggestion forum?

[foureyedave19]

Precisely, While a business' sole purpose is gain of profit... they cannot give up on a user base, no matter the size. To do so could be corporate suicide in my eyes. TiVo has so forth done this exactly, leaving itself falling behind. You say "BUY A COMPUTER INTERFACED PVR!" but in the end, whom would this hurt... TiVo. As said before TiVo, being a "geekier" product than many other electronic / computer peripherals, probably has a higher precentage of Mac users. Most of whom would use TTG if available assume. Then, would the loss of income from the monthly subscription based "Mac jihadists" (no, but seriously.... you are kidding me right?) be more or less than the cost for some Mac support? I am no code writer of any sort, but I honestly doubt that with just a "hint" of effort, a team could handle that. And hell you know what? I'll pay their salary with the $13.00 a month that TiVo wouldn't lose and the $7.00 a piece for the second and third. I'm putting $24 a month into this company currently, and this is fine, but shouldn't I get the same features as any Windows user? STILL though, some say "why wait you know it isn't coming." Hmm... the one time I called they were "Working on it, Sir." STILL MORE... all I really need is a clear, decisive statement with an ANSWER. Six months (more), a year, never. At this point I don't care, I just want to know what to expect and when.
Oh and Justin if you're going to be a jackass, do so sensibly. Re-read what you wrote, maybe have a friend read it, and then when you realize that your arguments are 90% ******** and you don't know your left from your right. Stand up, walk away from your Windows box, and go outside... 6.5 posts a day... there is a whole REAL world right behind that door.

[Justin Thyme]

Yes Tivo is being left behind. Take a look at who is getting the huge increases in DVRs. They have one feature that Tivo has been just too stupid to think of:

Free.

Can Tivo deliver profit during this period of DVR giveaways? I think so- but like it or not, it doesn't matter how much they differentiate themselves from generic DVRs. The rules of trendy consumer electronics marketing do not apply. Free is free.

So I take it you would advise Tivo not to add any additional functionality that would not quantify into new accounts? You pointed out that it is important to add value to a product. That is correct. You value TTG, and I value TTG. But the public quite simply does not. I doubt that the percentage of buyers who are even aware of the capability gets into the double digits. Even many enthusiasts and contributors to this forum that once used TTG often, seldom if ever do now. I for one haven't burned a TTG video in over a month. DaveZatz also said he has given up on it.

If you think that is BS, then just ask around.

Value is what the public says it is. If the public doesn't value what you have added, then you have not added value. You may have delivered on a coolness factor but it matters little if people opt for the free product because it is... well... free.

If you continue a pattern of spending on features that people do not value, then you will be bankrupt. You wouldn't do that if it were your money you were spending on development. If you had lost money for 8 years, you wouldn't do it with your business, but you expect Tivo to.

And what are you guys threatening Tivo with? Walking? Take a look around. We enthusiast/ earlier adopters hardly represent the "User Base". Be honest. We are in the vast minority of Tivo users.

Is it insulting that among the 3 million Tivo users that the features that we really want Tivo to build in reality do not matter that much to other the users?

No. It is simply accurate.

All of you decline to make a business case for such a move and it is not surprising why.

I don't blame you for not caring about Tivo having a sane business plan. Everyone wants a free ride.

And the CableCo's are quite willing to accomodate. They would love to take everyone for a ride.

[Unix_Beard]

Justin - You are missing the point. Whether or not the technology value-adds are adopted by huge numbers is irrelevant. The way Tivo differentiates themselves from the genero-boxes is with precisely these kinds of features. And maybe if Tivo got their head out of their ass and came up with a better solution for TTG (DRM on cable TV? c'mon!) the functionality would be more embraced. I'd say if they DID deliver a kickass Mac product, it would be hyped to high heaven on every tech blog from here to Cupertino. Leave a back door open. They do it with the dreaded and not-talked-about 30-second skip. They back door it. Why does Tivo feel this overwhelming need to DRM Everybody Loves Raymond?

[gonzotek]

And maybe if Tivo got their head out of their ass and came up with a better solution for TTG (DRM on cable TV? c'mon!) the functionality would be more embraced. I'd say if they DID deliver a kickass Mac product, it would be hyped to high heaven on every tech blog from here to Cupertino. Leave a back door open. They do it with the dreaded and not-talked-about 30-second skip. They back door it. Why does Tivo feel this overwhelming need to DRM Everybody Loves Raymond?The same could be said for Apple and iTMS. The answer is that neither TiVo nor Apple own the content passing though their service, and the content owners demanded that the DRM 'feature' be a part of their product. Both companies worked with the content providers to bring the services to the public, if they hadn't they would quickly have been bogged down in piracy litigation, especially in light of the Grokster ruling. Yes, they are vastly different services and service models, but the fact that TiVo and Apple don't own the rights to the content means that the rights-holders get a say in what and how each will do. So complain to CBS and the producers of Raymond that the TiVo is encrypting the show and making it impossible for you to enjoy it the way you want, because I can guarantee than the programmers at TiVo would have loved to do something else (for instance, intelligent multi-unit scheduling) and not to have to implement the DRM code.

[Unix_Beard]

The same could be said for Apple and iTMS. The answer is that neither TiVo nor Apple own the content passing though their service, and the content owners demanded that the DRM 'feature' be a part of their product. Both companies worked with the content providers to bring the services to the public, if they hadn't they would quickly have been bogged down in piracy litigation, especially in light of the Grokster ruling. Yes, they are vastly different services and service models, but the fact that TiVo and Apple don't own the rights to the content means that the rights-holders get a say in what and how each will do. So complain to CBS and the producers of Raymond that the TiVo is encrypting the show and making it impossible for you to enjoy it the way you want, because I can guarantee than the programmers at TiVo would have loved to do something else (for instance, intelligent multi-unit scheduling) and not to have to implement the DRM code.

Nonsense. Where is the DRM on every other PVR on the planet? Media Center? EyeTV? ReplayTV? VCRs? DVD-recorders? How can there be piracy on cable TV? Cable is ubiquitous. Time-shifting is not piracy.

Apple is SELLING content not providing a means of recording it. Your analogy is completely off point.

[gonzotek]

All good points, however this isn't an opinion, it's a documented fact (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29428-2004Jul31.html) that TiVo did this.

[Justin Thyme]

The way Tivo differentiates themselves from the genero-boxes is with precisely these kinds of features.
I see that you understand how to use the word differentiate. You may recall it from the fourth sentence from my last note.
Yes Tivo is being left behind. Take a look at who is getting the huge increases in DVRs. They have one feature that Tivo has been just too stupid to think of:

Free.

Can Tivo deliver profit during this period of DVR giveaways? I think so- but like it or not, it doesn't matter how much they differentiate themselves from generic DVRs . The rules of trendy consumer electronics marketing do not apply. Free is free.
You were saying someone missed the point. Really. I can't agree with you more. Bugbear had no response to it, nor do you. Perhaps you would get your mind around the problem that Tivo as well as all other independent CE DVR manufacturers are facing:
Most people could care less about what the buzz is about this or that product when they are confronted with this marketing concept so brutal and fundamental that you may not be familiar with it:

Free.

It's not real complicated.

It has nothing to do with the faddish word of mouth of what's in and what is old hat. If Ore-Ida russet potatoes are old hat but the potatoes are free, I think you and I know there will be few in the crowd who are slaves to fashion.

You are misapplying the rules of the technology fashion statement world to a rougher world ruled by much more brutal marketing techniques.

So don't trouble yourself with the words zealotry or differentiate. Start with that simple four letter word that starts with F.

[rog]

Zealotry is a particularly apt term when discussing certain jihadists and mac fanatics who magnify the injuries they imagine they have suffered, and react with actions far out of proportion to the injury suffered.

Ever hear of Godwin's law?

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 (i.e. certainty).

from: wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

We should expand it to include comparisons between Mac users and "jihadists", thus automatically invalidating your entire point. ;)

You spew out some really ridiculous stuff...

[Unix_Beard]

I see that you understand how to use the word differentiate. You may recall it from the fourth sentence from my last note.

You were saying someone missed the point. Really. I can't agree with you more. Bugbear had no response to it, nor do you. Perhaps you would get your mind around the problem that Tivo as well as all other independent CE DVR manufacturers are facing:


So don't trouble yourself with the words zealotry or differentiate. Start with that simple four letter word that starts with F.

I think you are missing the fact that millions of consumers are willing to pay a premium for a superior product. I certainly am. I could have a free DVR right now but there very fact that the Tivo makes it easy for me to stream a large collection of music in my house is a differentiating factor. I don't expect the masses to adopt the technology but Tivo should not be expecting it either. Play the niche. Play off the technology. Apple's doing quite well using the philosophy.

[Justin Thyme]

I millions of consumers are willing to pay a premium for a superior product. I certainly am. Me too, and I hope that Tivo or perhaps some other DVR provider like Apple will prevail. Judging from the MCE 2005, I don't expect much from that direction though I will keep an open mind. This is a difficult period though because most people do not percieve the value of these differentiating features.

And it is especially difficult because "free" is not the only feature that the CableCos are competing with. The latest Open Cable software from Motorolla (available to Comast 6412's) have the HMO features of listening to music or viewing pictures off of the PC.

I say again it is wrong to misapply the rules of conventional CE marketing warfare. Apple did not have to compete with free. If the music distributors had given away free Rio's as part of an online subsciption business there never would have been an iPod.

..thus automatically invalidating your entire point. ;)

You spew out some really ridiculous stuff...

Exactly which point was invalidated?

Zealotry is not an admirable trait.
The vast majority of mac owners do not suffer from this character flaw.
Zealots attempt to position themselves as representing the majority of people in their community, when in fact most in that community cannot relate to their fanaticism, and resent being lumped together with extremist views.
Zealots magnify the injuries they imagine they have suferred. They are unable to let go of the injuries precisely because it is an essential pillar of their self-identity.
Their responses are way out of proportion to the real injury (if any) suffered.

What problem do you have with these statements? I'm not holding up a mirror if these statements have nothing to do with you, so don't take it personally. But if you feel injured by them, then it is cause for reflection.

[rog]

Exactly which point was invalidated?

Zealotry is not an admirable trait.
The vast majority of mac owners do not suffer from this character flaw.
Zealots attempt to position themselves as representing the majority of people in their community, when in fact most in that community cannot relate to their fanaticism, and resent being lumped together with extremist views.
Zealots magnify the injuries they imagine they have suferred. They are unable to let go of the injuries precisely because it is an essential pillar of their self-identity.
Their responses are way out of proportion to the real injury (if any) suffered.


You clearly didn't read the wikipedia article and are not familiar with Godwin's law, so you way missed my point. You made it worse when you quoted me because you left off the first half of my sentence. Don't do that.

Let me post a bit more from the article on Godwin's law:

Godwin's law (also Godwin's rule of Nazi analogies) is an adage in Internet culture that was originated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states that:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 (i.e. certainty).

There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

Godwin's law is a funny principle noted by long term users of Usenet (or what has become Google Groups, really) which notes that discussions will often deteriorate to the point of making ridiculous comparisons to Nazis or Hitler. I was wishing to extend that to your use of the term "jihadist" when talking about Mac users.

Jihadists and Zealots are two different things.

For the love of God, don't make me explain why it isn't ever appropriate to label a Mac Zealot as a Jihadist. Mac Zealots don't exactly promote violence, now do they?

[Justin Thyme]

I'm still waiting for some explanation of which of the points are invalid.

I did not equate mac zealots with jihadists. You did. I said zealotry is a word that applies to both.

[rog]

I'm still waiting for some explanation of which of the points are invalid.

I did not equate mac zealots with jihadists. You did. I said zealotry is a word that applies to both.

You don't get it. Specifics aside, when you make ridiculous comparisons like that, your overall points get lost in the rhetoric. It's not me invalidating your point, it's the principle of Godwin's law. Again:

There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

After all, there is absolutely no justification for even using the term jihadist when talking about mac users/fans/zealots. None.

[tchwojko]

Their responses are way out of proportion to the real injury (if any) suffered.


You are absolutely correct! It is completely out of line to complain both to the service provider and on this message board about a feature that doesn't satisfy them! How dare they speak up and make their discontent known!

:rolleyes:

[tchwojko]

32 pages.

Tivo: "We're making a new feature called 'TivoToGo', and it'll be available on Windows and Mac."
Customers: "Yay!"
Tivo: "Ok, it's ready for some boxes and Windows 2k/XP users. We're still working on the Mac version. Here ya go."
Windows customers: "Yay!"
Mac customers: Drums fingers...
...several months later...
Mac customers: "Well?"
Tivo: "We're working on it."
Mac customers: "Yeah, right."
Tivo Exec: "It's really expensive to develop it for the Mac..."
Angry Mac customers: "You lied to us!"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Justin Thyme: "Well, you Mac people really shouldn't expect Tivo to afford it."
Mac customers: "We want TivoToGo, and we want to know if and when."
Angry Mac customers: "Tivo lied to us!"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Justin Thyme: "Would you all stop complaining!"
Mac customers: "I don't think they're going to do it. That's upsetting!"
Angry Mac customers: "Tivo lied to us!"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Justin Thyme: "It would be bad business to develop for a small market like Mac users."
Mac customers: "Any word? What the heck?"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Mac customers: "Didn't what?"
Justin Thyme: "Don't be a zealot! You're overreacting!"
Mac customers: "Go away!"
Justin Thyme: "See?!"

[Fofer]

32 pages.

Tivo: "We're making a new feature called 'TivoToGo', and it'll be available on Windows and Mac."
Customers: "Yay!"
Tivo: "Ok, it's ready for some boxes and Windows 2k/XP users. We're still working on the Mac version. Here ya go."
Windows customers: "Yay!"
Mac customers: Drums fingers...
...several months later...
Mac customers: "Well?"
Tivo: "We're working on it."
Mac customers: "Yeah, right."
Tivo Exec: "It's really expensive to develop it for the Mac..."
Angry Mac customers: "You lied to us!"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Justin Thyme: "Well, you Mac people really shouldn't expect Tivo to afford it."
Mac customers: "We want TivoToGo, and we want to know if and when."
Angry Mac customers: "Tivo lied to us!"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Justin Thyme: "Would you all stop complaining!"
Mac customers: "I don't think they're going to do it. That's upsetting!"
Angry Mac customers: "Tivo lied to us!"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Justin Thyme: "It would be bad business to develop for a small market like Mac users."
Mac customers: "Any word? What the heck?"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Mac customers: "Didn't what?"
Justin Thyme: "Don't be a zealot! You're overreacting!"
Mac customers: "Go away!"
Justin Thyme: "See?!"




Fofer: "Thanks, tchwojko, for your brilliant (and accurate) summary!"

:D :up:

[dgh]

Wash
Rinse
Repeat

[rog]

32 pages.

Tivo: "We're making a new feature called 'TivoToGo', and it'll be available on Windows and Mac."
Customers: "Yay!"
Tivo: "Ok, it's ready for some boxes and Windows 2k/XP users. We're still working on the Mac version. Here ya go."
Windows customers: "Yay!"
Mac customers: Drums fingers...
...several months later...
Mac customers: "Well?"
Tivo: "We're working on it."
Mac customers: "Yeah, right."
Tivo Exec: "It's really expensive to develop it for the Mac..."
Angry Mac customers: "You lied to us!"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Justin Thyme: "Well, you Mac people really shouldn't expect Tivo to afford it."
Mac customers: "We want TivoToGo, and we want to know if and when."
Angry Mac customers: "Tivo lied to us!"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Justin Thyme: "Would you all stop complaining!"
Mac customers: "I don't think they're going to do it. That's upsetting!"
Angry Mac customers: "Tivo lied to us!"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Justin Thyme: "It would be bad business to develop for a small market like Mac users."
Mac customers: "Any word? What the heck?"
ZeoTivo: "No they didn't!"
Mac customers: "Didn't what?"
Justin Thyme: "Don't be a zealot! You're overreacting!"
Mac customers: "Go away!"
Justin Thyme: "See?!"

LMAO. :D

This is perfect. A nice timely injection of humor too; it was much needed.

[rog]

Moving along...

Some of you may have seen this, but there is a new app being developed for OS X (Tiger) called TivoTool.

An overview:

http://www.tuaw.com/2005/07/28/tivotool-for-mac-os-x-released/

The homepage:

http://tivotool.com/index.html

What's interesting is that this app claims to be able to "extract video - unencrypted - from your networked TiVo to your Mac", even on Series 2 machines.

I was under the impression that the methods used in this hack do NOT work with the newer 540 and other mainstream stand-alone units. The last time I researched this, on the 540 series you had to socket the prom to enable raw (unencrypted) video extraction -- a hardware hack and not an easy task for most folks, to say the least.

So, have the hackers found a way to use the killhdinitrc method on the 540? Or is this blogger spreading the gospel of TivoTool neglecting to look up all the facts?

Thoughts?

[Justin Thyme]

After all, there is absolutely no justification for even using the term jihadist when talking about mac users/fans/zealots.

Thank you for your instructions on which words I may and may not use. The term zealotry is an apt term when discussing jihadists and certain mac fanatics.

Mac zealots exhibit the features I described, and each of these features are strongly in evidence in this thread. Once again, which of any of these points are invalid?

Zealotry is not an admirable trait.
The vast majority of mac owners do not suffer from this character flaw.
Zealots attempt to position themselves as representing the majority of people in their community, when in fact most in that community cannot relate to their fanaticism, and resent being lumped together with extremist views.
Zealots magnify the injuries they imagine they have suferred. They are unable to let go of the injuries precisely because it is an essential pillar of their self-identity.
Their responses are way out of proportion to the real injury (if any) suffered.

Interestingly, the forces of silencing dissent are also strongly in evidence here. How ironic that those who presume to champion individualism use tools of repression of the expression of views contrary to those of the herd.

Go ahead, use mockery, use ad hominem attacks, use diversionsary statements.

Anything to avoid responding to the arguments presented to you. Because reason is not the tool of zealots. Resentment, bitterness, emotional appeals to group thinking- these are the tools of fanatics.

Like I said. I am just holding up a mirror. If you don't like what you see, then that provides cause for reflection of a different kind.

[rog]

Justin, I think you're taking this a little too personally.

I agree with many (but definitely not all) of your comments.

I started off joking with the Godwin's law comment. I'm sorry, but I still think it is just ridiculous to use jihadist in the context of a conversation about Mac users lacking TiVo support! When you clearly didn't get the reference to Godwin's law, I felt the need to explain myself.

I never claimed once that any of your itemized points on Mac Zealotry were invalid. Frankly, I don't care about them. I agreed to disagree with your view of the problem a long time ago.

I was just attempting to inject a little humor and common sense into the thread because the term jihadist is just ridiculously out of place here. That's the only point I was trying to make.

[rog]

P.S. What did you expect? You came into a thread filled with Mac users and started hurling insults around.

[Justin Thyme]

We should expand it to include comparisons between Mac users and "jihadists", thus automatically invalidating your entire point. ;)

You spew out some really ridiculous stuff...

I don't know how I missed it before. "Spew." Funny.

If you withdraw your argument as a "joke", then fine.

My comments were directed towards zealots. How could you possibly feel insulted.

[foureyedave19]

Quick note:
Not sure where you are located but... Comcast's DVR is not free. The box it self costs to rent, as well as the remote. But, also there is a monthly subscription fee... 9.95 a month plus 5 for the box/ remote is in actuality more expenisve. Not to mention the requirment of Digital Cable. Do some research before you state lies.
http://www.comcast.com/dvrmotorola/

[Justin Thyme]

For those who have a difficult time comprehending minutely ambiguous messages, consider the table:

...............................Price....EPG/DVR service fee
MCE off the shelf best prices..$999.....Free
Sony Cablecard DVR DHG-HDD250..$799.....Free
Pioneer DVR-531H...............$400.....Free
Tivo standard price 40 hours...$149....$12.95

Comcast 6412...................Free.....$9.99



John Q. Public understands this table quite well. That is why the runaway most popular DVRs are those provided by the carriers.

Sorry, at this point the public either doesn't know or care enough about the differentiating features to overcome the F word.

[dropd]

P.S. What did you expect? You came into a thread filled with Mac users and started hurling insults around.

Rog (and others),

Please do not feed the troll. I have made this mistake in the past.

[Justin Thyme]

Evasion of arguments tactic number 538:

Label the dissenter a non person. Only listen to the people who agree with you.

[dropd]

Rog (and others),

Please do not feed the troll. I have made this mistake in the past.

(cue davezatz to come and post about how much he appreciates Mr. Thyme's "insights").

[dropd]

Evasion of arguments tactic number 538:

Label the dissenter a non person. Only listen to the people who agree with you.

Breaking my own rules responding, but:

Trolling tactic number 734: The strawman argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

[foureyedave19]

For those who have a difficult time comprehending minutely ambiguous messages, consider the table:

...............................Price....EPG/DVR service fee
MCE off the shelf best prices..$999.....Free
Sony Cablecard DVR DHG-HDD250..$799.....Free
Pioneer DVR-531H...............$400.....Free
Tivo standard price 40 hours...$149....$12.95

Comcast 6412...................Free.....$9.99



John Q. Public understands this table quite well. That is why the runaway most popular DVRs are those provided by the carriers.


You write that the comcast DVR itself is free in cost. You are actually very wrong. You are not purchasing anything, correct but there is and always has been a box rental fee. As I had said before, but you probably missed that due to your selective reading and your rush to type often times misconstruing the facts and force feeding your "ridiculous" comments down our throats ...

P.S. Loved the refference to the wikipedia article... good read :) I know I shouldn't feed it... but isn't it just so much fun! :D

[skanter]

Unbelievable! Have the development team take a field trip to an Apple retail store and then tell me why the finest most powerful Media platform in the computer business is basically being ignored by Tivo. There's no time line or even a suggestion of a release date. .

STILL no Mac support? Jeeeeeeez!

Continual "Not available for Mac" and "Windows only" for software I wanted were the main reasons I jumped the Mac ship over to the Dark Side years ago. Too frustrating...

[rog]

STILL no Mac support? Jeeeeeeez!

Continual "Not available for Mac" and "Windows only" for software I wanted were the main reasons I jumped the Mac ship over to the Dark Side years ago. Too frustrating...

Yep. Pretty lame huh?

I ride both horses myself.

Just out of curiosity, which apps pulled you away from the Mac? We've probably covered this at least once in this thread, but there aren't too many genres of software out there that aren't covered on both platforms. Most exceptions are in niche markets.

[Fofer]

Moving along...

Some of you may have seen this, but there is a new app being developed for OS X (Tiger) called TivoTool.

An overview:

http://www.tuaw.com/2005/07/28/tivotool-for-mac-os-x-released/

The homepage:

http://tivotool.com/index.html

What's interesting is that this app claims to be able to "extract video - unencrypted - from your networked TiVo to your Mac", even on Series 2 machines.



Wow, rog, thanks for bringing this to my attention... I hadn't heard of it. And it appears to work VERY, VERY well. Awesome! :up: I've been waiting for an app like this for a long time. One less thing I need my junky PC for!

Not only can I stream shows "live" off my DirecTivo to my PowerBook, but I can save directly (MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 or others...) It's way faster than TivoToGo (from what I hear) and there's no annoying DRM to worry about. Burning to DVD is built in, too.

This is a very nice development for Mac users who've hacked their TiVos.

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

[skanter]

Yep. Pretty lame huh?

I ride both horses myself.

Just out of curiosity, which apps pulled you away from the Mac? We've probably covered this at least once in this thread, but there aren't too many genres of software out there that aren't covered on both platforms. Most exceptions are in niche markets.

It was quite a few years ago, but I remember there were some pretty big choice MIDI/music apps that were either not available for Mac or many versions behind; and Newtek, the company whose video editing software I used for professional work, switched to Windows NT when the Amiga died. I used Atari STs, Amigas, and Macs long before I switched to Windoze.

Now, a big app is Dragon Naturally Speaking which I use instead of typing most of the time. Even David Pogue (huge Mac guy) has a Windows PC just for this program!

Another big issue was compatability with clients and students -- 90% of whom owned PCs, and price as I usually needed 4 or five systems. While I still think Macs are somewhat cooler, I've never been sorry I switched and never looked back...

[rog]

Fair enough. With the exception of the compatibility issues you mentioned with students/clients, your reasons were indeed related to niche products.

I've heard Dragon Naturally Speaking is pretty good software, but admittedly have never tried it.

For professional audio/video editing these days, there is no longer any argument that Windows beats the Mac. I'm not claiming the Mac beats Windows in this area either, just that you can perform either task (professionally) on either platform. Apple's acquisition of products like Emagic's Logic (now Logic Pro 7) and its continued work on Soundtrack and Finalcut are some good examples of pro audio/video software for the Mac... just to name a few.

However, I grant that things were very different on Macs 10 years ago. Audio and video production were not what they are now! I suppose the same could be said about "compatibility" between PC's and Macs.

But no more... IMHO, arguments about "compatibility" are mostly marketing diversions these days, unless you're in a really highly specialized profession, or in some other role that demands a platform-specific tool. With the full Microsoft Office suite available for Macs, and the ubiquity of other cross-platform file formats (pdf, txt, rtf, jpg, png, etc.), compatibility between Macs and PC's is a non-issue for almost all of the user base.

No regrets at all? What about when you see a shiny PowerBook running Tiger? Dashboard? Spotlight? If you had today's technology back when Amiga died, would you make the same decision?

Personally, I have to use multiple platforms all day long, and I always find myself on the iBook when I have a choice about the matter.

One word: Polish. That sums up how I feel about the iBook/Tiger combo.

[Justin Thyme]

Breaking my own rules responding, but:

Trolling tactic number 734: The strawman argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

The fallacy of an ad hominem attack is that even if it succeeds and the character of the the opposing person is shattered in the community, the character of the speaker has no relevance for assessing the validity of the argument presented.

Simply labelling and dismissing people and arguements with labels is no substitute for thinking or honest discussion. If anyone read the explanation of straw man argumentation, then one would know that some misrepresentation of DropD's position had to have occured. Where was the misrepresentation?

Not stated. Ahh yes- "straw man arguement". Ahhh.... Yes...

How does the herd maintain group think? By actively labeling heretics and ostracizing them. Rather than considering the merit of an argument, considering the label which may most effectively be associated with an idea so that it may be quickly disposed of.

You write that the comcast DVR itself is free in cost. You are actually very wrong. You are not purchasing anything, correct but there is and always has been a box rental fee. You caught me sherlock. How could I have even thought that I could mislead people that cable companies charge monthly fees for equipment?

For the painfully literal minded, I should have said "Free plus $9.99".

Right. So why do you think people are jumping for that proposition rather than the $149 +12.99 proposition?

Think carefully.

It's not because Free + $9.99 has better support for Macintosh, or has comparable TTG-like connectivity, or name any other whizzy feature, or even a decent UI. Features like TTG connectivity are just pissing money into the wind.

Pardon me to return to the theme of this thread. I would not want to interrupt this flooding of OT remarks that belong in a happy hour thread.

[rog]

The fallacy of an ad hominem attack is that even if it succeeds and the character of the the opposing person is shattered in the community, the character of the speaker has no relevance for assessing the validity of the argument presented.

<snip>

How does the herd maintain group think? By actively labeling heretics and ostracizing them. Rather than considering the merit of an argument, considering the label which may most effectively be associated with an idea so that it may be quickly disposed of.

<joke> Quit describing the tactics of the Republican party. </joke>

[rog ducks, prepares for lock]

Justin... the thing is, your above points are valid. We get what you're saying. We're all using ad hominem attacks against you because we don't like what you have to say about the facts.

You're right. We have been.

You're in a thread titled "Mac Users lack Tivo togo support". It's filled with Mac fanatics. Get over yourself.

You caught me sherlock. How could I have even thought that I could mislead people that cable companies charge monthly fees for equipment?

For the painfully literal minded, I should have said "Free plus $9.99".

Oh, come on now... on this one I cut you NO slack. Your post was misleading at best.

P.S. dropd: I only feed it at night.

[Lon]

It's not because Free + $9.99 has better support for Macintosh, or has comparable TTG-like connectivity, or name any other whizzy feature, or even a decent UI. Features like TTG connectivity are just pissing money into the wind.

It is exactly for these reasons (e.g., Firewire cable to my mac) that I choose to adopt an extra Moto 6208 box to sit next to my mac (no TV in the room). But that's just me, a mac user. (not that you, Justin, would use "ad hominem" yourself)

[Unix_Beard]

How does the herd maintain group think? By actively labeling heretics and ostracizing them. Rather than considering the merit of an argument, considering the label which may most effectively be associated with an idea so that it may be quickly disposed of.


Wow Thyme. You certainly are full of yourself. Could this herd or groupthink mentality that is completely in your own perception of events be due to that fact that no one here agrees with you and your assessments? Your explanation is that we are all wrong and the only points that have merit are your own. I've tried discussing topics with you in a respectful manner yet you don't bother to give credence to anyone's points but your own.

I've argued your simple "free" theory. Others have pointed out how the very foundation of your argument is moot since the DVR is not free. Yet you still insist that everyone else here are the babbling idiots.

[gonzotek]

The following is not specifically aimed at any one person:
This thread is supposed to be about encouraging TiVo to support Mac users as thoroughly as Windows users are currently supported, or at the least getting TiVo to make a firm, clear statement as to their intentions and timelines for continued Mac support. In what way is quibbling over Comcast's DVR's price and Justin's choice of words and apparent failure to see another point of view than his own an encouragement to TiVo to support Macs? When I was young, I was taught to keep my eye on the ball; no offence intended to him, but Justin and his individual views will have zero impact on TiVo's choices of where to allocate their engineering resources, so why spend time and energy on him if you don't like what he's saying? If his posts are really a problem for someone, the ignore feature works well enough. And moderators are always available to appeal to if anyone feels that isn't enough. Little personal jabs are not a great way to win someone over to your way of thinking, and more importantly, are in violation of the spirit of this forum, if not the actual rules. It's been getting out of hand over the last page or two and it wouldn't be surprising at all to me if a moderator stepped in to rebuke a few people. Remember, eye on the ball.

More on topic, Unix_Beard, I was wondering if you had read the article from my last post regarding the DRM implementation. I do agree with your points about other devices not having it and it being silly for TiVo to have implemented it, so you know I'm not preparing to attack you over your next post or anything. But nevertheless, they have implemented it and they worked with the content providers to assure them the implementation was 'good enough'. I'm interested in your take on TiVo's working with the content providers in comparison to Apple's. I realize Apple sells, and TiVo merely records, but ignoring the technical and logistical details, an end user in both cases gets a file, locked to an account, which cannot be played or manipulated except in company-approved devices(software and hardware) or via (illicit)decryption.

[Unix_Beard]

More on topic, Unix_Beard, I was wondering if you had read the article from my last post regarding the DRM implementation. I do agree with your points about other devices not having it and it being silly for TiVo to have implemented it, so you know I'm not preparing to attack you over your next post or anything. But nevertheless, they have implemented it and they worked with the content providers to assure them the implementation was 'good enough'. I'm interested in your take on TiVo's working with the content providers in comparison to Apple's. I realize Apple sells, and TiVo merely records, but ignoring the technical and logistical details, an end user in both cases gets a file, locked to an account, which cannot be played or manipulated except in company-approved devices(software and hardware) or via (illicit)decryption.

Again, I'm not really sure where the analogy is. The article you posted spoke of Tivo developing DRM to accommodate giving recordings away. Apple's DRM is designed specifically so a user does not give away the content. The content is different as well. Most TV shows (except for pay channels), the performers are compensated by commercial endorsement where in the iTunes world, the artist is paid by royalties resulting from sales. Its is this fundamental difference in how the artists get paid where I find the most trouble with both company's DRM schemes. I might add that Apple supports both major platforms with their scheme. ;)

[tchwojko]

Another difference is that Apple is the distributor for the publishers (record labels) of the content.

Tivo is a re-distributor for the distributors (Cable companies) of the content.

Both Tivo and Apple are content managers for the consumer of the content. Though iTunes lets you manage ALL your audio while the Tivo only allows you to manage the cable company's content.

I don't want to start another argument, so I'm not going to even try to analyze what that all actually means. I also don't think I'd get it close to correct anyway.

[Unix_Beard]

Good points. Tivo is a VCR. To me, there should be no restrictions whatsoever. Tivo seems to have gotten itself into this situation by coming up with this cockamamy idea of allowing a Tivo subscriber to send content to 9 other people? Why? Why open up this can of worms? Just allow the consumer to use the product for what it was intended - as a VCR.

[akp]

The following is not specifically aimed at any one person:
This thread is supposed to be about encouraging TiVo to support Mac users as thoroughly as Windows users are currently supported, or at the least getting TiVo to make a firm, clear statement as to their intentions and timelines for continued Mac support.
Along those lines...

I think it would be really great if there was full Mac support for TiVoToGo, along with any other TiVo <-> PC features that might be forthcoming. If I thought it would help, I would vote, or sign a petition, or whatever. But TiVo is in a tough position now and making a statement that they simply don't have the resources to work on this would not be good for PR (perhaps worse than silence, or potentially getting caught in a marketing lie).

My guess is, we wont hear anything more about it, until it suddenly appears, if it ever does.

[gonzotek]

I might add that Apple supports both major platforms with their scheme.Apple did eventually support both platforms, but Apple only supported MacOS at first, and Windows came about 6 months later (http://mactimeline.com/). Just another example of a company following their own priorities. However, I'll say this for them, versus TiVo, they promised at the Mac iTMS launch a Windows release by year-end, and then delivered on it.

[skanter]

Fair enough. With the exception of the compatibility issues you mentioned with students/clients, your reasons were indeed related to niche products.

I've heard Dragon Naturally Speaking is pretty good software, but admittedly have never tried it..

It wasn't great till v.8, when it really fulfilled it's promise. Train it to your voice for 15 minutes, then talk naturally -- words appear onscreen, just as you said them.
And, it improves it's (98%) accuracy as you correct the small number of mistakes.

For professional audio/video editing these days, there is no longer any argument that Windows beats the Mac. I'm not claiming the Mac beats Windows in this area either, just that you can perform either task (professionally) on either platform. Apple's acquisition of products like Emagic's Logic (now Logic Pro 7) and its continued work on Soundtrack and Finalcut are some good examples of pro audio/video software for the Mac... just to name a few.

I was a Logic user since the Atari version (C-Lab Notator), and was very unhappy when Emagic sold out to Apple, abandoning a few hundred thousand users, including ME. :mad: I was a Newtek user since the Amiga, and stuck with them as they switched to Windows -- no choice there. It made sense for them to go to Windows, obviously, and the hardware/software is far too complex to be ported to Mac.



But no more... IMHO, arguments about "compatibility" are mostly marketing diversions these days, unless you're in a really highly specialized profession, or in some other role that demands a platform-specific tool. With the full Microsoft Office suite available for Macs, and the ubiquity of other cross-platform file formats (pdf, txt, rtf, jpg, png, etc.), compatibility between Macs and PC's is a non-issue for almost all of the user base.

Most of my clients and students have PCs, and it's far easier to email docs, video files, sound files etc. without Mac to PC hassles. It -is- less of a hassle than 10 years ago, but there still are compatability issues.

No regrets at all? What about when you see a shiny PowerBook running Tiger? Dashboard? Spotlight? If you had today's technology back when Amiga died, would you make the same decision?

Well, as I said, Macs are a bit cooler, but I'm continually putting together parts of PC systems and choosing MBs, sound cards, video cards. Macs are just not as flexible, and cheap. This is also why they have less problems -- uniformity.


One word: Polish. That sums up how I feel about the iBook/Tiger combo.

Macs definitely have more polish and pazazz, and are easier to use for novices.
My 11-year old son had his choice, but still chose a PC -- smart and practical kid!

:)

[rog]

:up:

[ZeoTiVo]

Good points. Tivo is a VCR. To me, there should be no restrictions whatsoever. Tivo seems to have gotten itself into this situation by coming up with this cockamamy idea of allowing a Tivo subscriber to send content to 9 other people? Why? Why open up this can of worms? Just allow the consumer to use the product for what it was intended - as a VCR.

well TiVo has kind of forced MAc users into using the TiVo as a VCR then, it records - you watch - then eventually "the tape" gets recorded over.


also I would say that TV shows do get resold into syndication and now DVD sales as well. Mnay of the main actors on a show get paid alright but the real bucks come when they hit the ratings and number of shows to allow a good syndication deal. DVD sales are part of it as well and add signicificantly to revenue for someone (no idea who gets that slice of pie)
so a TiVo without DRM could easily cut into those revenue sources.

[rog]

so a TiVo without DRM could easily cut into those revenue sources.

Maybe. It hasn't been shown definitively that p2p-type file-sharing of content does cut into the revenue of the industry. Many argue that it has the opposite effect.

But like many here have said before (including you Zeo), TiVo had little choice with the DRM situation.

[dropd]

The fallacy of an ad hominem attack is that even if it succeeds and the character of the the opposing person is shattered in the community, the character of the speaker has no relevance for assessing the validity of the argument presented.

So.. a 'troll' label is an ad hominem when it is used to accurately describe the behavior of polluting a thread with off-topic comments and insults... but a 'zealot' label is not an ad hominem? I'm legitimately confused.

Simply labelling and dismissing people and arguements with labels is no substitute for thinking or honest discussion.

See above re: 'zealot', 'fanatic', etc.

If anyone read the explanation of straw man argumentation, then one would know that some misrepresentation of DropD's position had to have occured. Where was the misrepresentation?

This borders on genius... use a straw man to refute the observation that your primary rhetorical technique is the straw man. My comments about your straw man arguments were not referring to MY post (how could they, since you did not directly respond to anything I wrote here recently), but in response to your banter with rog and others up-thread. But nice try trying to redirect - it takes chutzpah, for sure.

Pardon me to return to the theme of this thread. I would not want to interrupt this flooding of OT remarks that belong in a happy hour thread.

Again, the irony is rich. First, steer the thread wildly off-topic. Then, when people complain that you steered the thread off-topic and ask you to refrain, respond with flames and then as a follow-up whine that it's your critics that went OT.

[Justin Thyme]

This thread is supposed to be about encouraging TiVo to support Mac users as thoroughly as Windows users are currently supported, or at the least getting TiVo to make a firm, clear statement as to their intentions and timelines for continued Mac support.

If they are going to bring TivoToGo to the Mac platform, tell me and give me a time frame. If they are not, then tell me that.

I think these are fair representations of the topic of this thread, and I don't think there is anyone who doesn't think it is a reasonable position to take. If folks want to start a Mac thread discussing Dragon voice recognition, the Happy Hour forum is here for that. I think even they will admit their notes were completely off topic.

Grievances are important to raise, and as time passes with no apparent movement, the level of frustration rises and the language, and negative sentiments expressed naturally rises. Most of these shrill accusations and critiicisms of Tivo in this thread I feel are grossly unfair.

I feel for Tivo personnel who are not in a position to defend their honor. Comparisons to prewar german treatment of ethnic groups, racial intolerance, "turd" polishing, the habitual denigration of anyone who posts an alternate point of view- especially after nearly one thousand notes of the same content- these types of incivility go way over the top.

I called for a sense of proportionality. It was specifically in the context calling someone on such an extreme statement that I made a passing comment that it is a shame what zealotry does to people. Others have sought to mischaracterize my passing comment as applying to every mac owner, or the legitimacy of the grievance that is the topic of this thread. It was neither as I have repeatedly stated.

I stand by my statements concerning zealotry. It has no place in this forum or this thread. If it is the purpose of the thread is to encourage Tivo to take a particular action, then it is correct and germaine to point out that the tactics of zealots and fanatics do not help achieve that goal.

[Fofer]

Justin Thyme, you must be a real hit at parties.

[Justin Thyme]

In my former professional life, I always wondered why would start people partying during my presentations. I chalked it up to end of conference festivities. Everyone would just start fortifying themselves with massive intakes of depressants or pain killers.

[rog]

Hmm... let me see if I can sum up your point of view...

Justin Thyme: "Quit using ad hominem attacks and get back on topic, you Mac Zealots! I could apply the description of a jihadist to you guys just as well. Now quit attacking my person and get back on topic!"

:confused:

----------

Also, does anyone really truly think anyone at TiVo actually gives a damn about this thread? As if staying on topic with our guided complaints is going to make a difference? If you'll look, you'll see this has been an off topic playground for about 10 posters for months.

[Justin Thyme]

Hey- I wasn't picking on you. DropD was saying my note wasn't on topic and on the contrary I showed that it was, while the other previos comments were not. I didn't mean to single you out- yours just happen to be the immediate OT remarks prior.

Regarding your gross misrepresentation what I just posted:
My comments were directed towards zealots. How could you possibly feel insulted.

Perhaps your response is way out proportion.

[tonyf3]

Enough Already!!! Useful information only please. I come back to see if there is anything new, interesting, maybe useful, and all I see is this page after page of useless bickering. Give us all a break, OK, Next!.... have a nice day.

"So say we all!" BSG-75

[tchwojko]

Useful information? I thought this was the "picayune semantic differences, attempts to get the last word, and trying to display more knowledge than one really has" thread.

But I suppose 90% of discussion threads on the net fit that bill...

With a lifetime subscription, I'll keep my Tivo until the drive dies (and maybe even replace the drive then), but I won't be buying any more unless Tivo shows me something that can tie into my Mac.

I have two more spots waiting for a recording device. I'd rather have something more polished than Elgato's offerings, but if ElGato is the best that's out there when I buy, then that's what I'll get.

I'm also waiting to see what happens with HD recorders, though that's curiosity, not necessity.

[tonyf3]

Useful information? I thought this was the "picayune semantic differences, attempts to get the last word, and trying to display more knowledge than one really has" thread.

But I suppose 90% of discussion threads on the net fit that bill...

With a lifetime subscription, I'll keep my Tivo until the drive dies (and maybe even replace the drive then), but I won't be buying any more unless Tivo shows me something that can tie into my Mac.

I have two more spots waiting for a recording device. I'd rather have something more polished than Elgato's offerings, but if ElGato is the best that's out there when I buy, then that's what I'll get.

I'm also waiting to see what happens with HD recorders, though that's curiosity, not necessity.


Maybe a few have turned it into that recently, but that's not the way it started off.
Dennis W. and others have contributed a decent amount of useful info.

But onto the choices that are left. I agree I'll keep the two I have till the they die. I have an Amazon gift certificate and was thinking about the Humax with the built in burner. But only because it's a gift. On Elgato,.. looks great but tieing up my network and a Mac just to play my shows seems a little cumbersome. I'll save it as a last resort. My cable company Charter Comm. is offering their PVR with 2 tuners, season pass etc. fro $9.99 a month. Hard to pass up. Wish list: Mac mini PVR, with burning, with an attached dock for ipod Video. Quicktime H264 as the base codec will stream over 802.11b. Anytime now Steve.

[tonyf3]

Mac users rejoice (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=252815)


Courtesy davezatz

[rog]

Ha, I was just about to post the same exact link. :)

I said it there, but I'll say it again: this is a big step in the right direction for TiVo, and I welcome it as very good news. :up:

[Lon]

Mac users rejoice (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=252815)


Courtesy davezatz
clipped from the job ad:
* Experience with DRM or encryption/decryption software.
Yes, good news, indeed! :D

[Fofer]

clipped from the job ad:

Be prepared to work in solitary confinement, in the basement, for months on end. Your work will be denied, questioned and lampooned on Internet discussion forums. The fruits of your labor may never be released. Salary not negotiable.

[Justin Thyme]

Jeez you guys are fast. I just saw the news on tuaw and wanted to spread the word.

http://www.tuaw.com/2005/08/04/mac-developers-want-to-work-for-tivo/

[Fofer]

But... but... Justin... it doesn't make business sense for TiVo to think about Mac support!

[rog]

oh christ, here we go again...

[rog]

by the way, how's the tivotool working out for you?

i still haven't gotten an answer as to whether or not it's any easier to hack a 540 these days... so i haven't even downloaded tivotool yet.

[Fofer]

TiVoTool is working *fabulously!*

[Justin Thyme]

No no Rog you misunderstand where I am coming from.
But... but... Justin... it doesn't make business sense for TiVo to think about Mac support! It doesn't make short term business sense.

It is very welcome evidence that they are not entirely focused on the near term advertisement cash flow.

My model of the Rogers changes will have to be revised.

It other words, looks like I was full of cr*p.

[tonyf3]

clipped from the job ad:Be prepared to work in solitary confinement, in the basement, for months on end. Your work will be denied, questioned and lampooned on Internet discussion forums. The fruits of your labor may never be released. Salary not negotiable


I thought that was the job description for most Mac development streams.