Mac Users lack Tivo togo support

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Originally posted by SavMan
make up a date -- then stick to it. It's not hard...

Er, what? Invent a date, then... what? Ship whatever you have?

Everyone is assuming that because they're unwilling to provide a date, that they don't have a target date. That's a pretty big assumption, and more than a little unrealistic. It may be simply that they're not announcing a date because they don't want to (and with all the vitriol flying around this community lately I can't say I'd blame them.) More likely, they've got a third party requirement (possibly Apple, maybe someone else) and they're not willing to commit to a date publicly without being in control of the 3rd party's schedule. But I'd be very, very surprised if they didn't internally have at least a fairly narrow ballpark date when their own code would be ready.

I'm a Mac user, and have been for just about as long as there have been Macs to use. I want to see TTG support for my Mac soon myself. I was disappointed to see that it wasn't ready day one, like HMO support was. But I also understand that, even with Mac users representing a larger part of TiVo's user base than we make up in the computer market as a whole, we're still by far the minority platform, and that is why the Windows version was TiVo's priority.

[mattman]

And, as usual, Dennis has said what I wanted to far more eloquently than I did.....

;)

[SavMan]

Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson
Er, what? Invent a date, then... what? Ship whatever you have?

No, then stick to it. Everyone else in the world has to work on a deadline, so I don't see why TiVo can't. If you make a movie, you tell people a planned release date, at least giving a quarter and year prediction for when it comes out. Even if you miss that (like, say, Titanic), at least people have a ballpark estimate as to when they can see the movie. Windows software does the same thing, the release date for Longhorn keeps getting pushed further back, but at least we know it's not vaporware because they have a date for release.

Everyone is assuming that because they're unwilling to provide a date, that they don't have a target date. That's a pretty big assumption, and more than a little unrealistic. It may be simply that they're not announcing a date because they don't want to (and with all the vitriol flying around this community lately I can't say I'd blame them.)

Really, now. "They don't want to?" Is TiVo a petulant child? That would be your excuse to TiVo customers... "we could set a date if we wanted to, but we don't. So there. But seriously, we ARE working on it." If TiVo hasn't released a date for TTGMac becuase they just don't want to, then TiVo is in some SERIOUS trouble, management-wise.

More likely, they've got a third party requirement (possibly Apple, maybe someone else) and they're not willing to commit to a date publicly without being in control of the 3rd party's schedule. But I'd be very, very surprised if they didn't internally have at least a fairly narrow ballpark date when their own code would be ready.

It is possible that TiVo has some sort of restriction, however unlikely. But if they have a "fairly narrow ballpark date," then they should give it to us. You don't win customers by hiding information from them. I had no problem with TTG being late. They gave a date, they missed it. Regardless, for the simple fact that they tried to commit to a date told me they are in fact working on it. To me, and many other Mac users, TTG is just vaporware... simply because TiVo can't commit to a date, even if it is nebulous. If they can't commit to saying "2005," that tells me that they have no real plans to release it within the year. Once again, "working on it," is not an excuse.

You can apologize for TiVo all you want. I'm not an apologist, I'm a loyal consumer. But TiVo is seriously straining its relationship with its Mac user base, and I want some damn info. Is that so much for which to ask?

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Originally posted by SavMan
No, then stick to it. Everyone else in the world has to work on a deadline, so I don't see why TiVo can't. If you make a movie, you tell people a planned release date, at least giving a quarter and year prediction for when it comes out. Even if you miss that (like, say, Titanic), at least people have a ballpark estimate as to when they can see the movie. Windows software does the same thing, the release date for Longhorn keeps getting pushed further back, but at least we know it's not vaporware because they have a date for release.

So, you'd rather have a meaningless date? One that will change whenever the need arises? As I said, you need look no further than the ranting here about the TiVoToGo date being missed to see why TiVo may not think that's a great idea. You may not have had a problem with it, but it seems a lot of people did.

I develop software. If you "set a date, and stick to it" either your feature set suffers or your stability does.


Really, now. "They don't want to?" Is TiVo a petulant child? That would be your excuse to TiVo customers... "we could set a date if we wanted to, but we don't. So there. But seriously, we ARE working on it." If TiVo hasn't released a date for TTGMac becuase they just don't want to, then TiVo is in some SERIOUS trouble, management-wise.

There are plenty of reasons that a business would choose not to announce a date publicly even when they have a very solid one internally. Thus: "we are working on it, but have no date to announce." Some companies even have policies against announcing specific dates, and in some cases (although probably not in this one) SEC regulations about forward looking statements apply. It's not an issue of petulance.

You can apologize for TiVo all you want. I'm not an apologist, I'm a loyal consumer. But TiVo is seriously straining its relationship with its Mac user base, and I want some damn info. Is that so much for which to ask?

You've asked, they've answered. You didn't like the answer, and have every right to be disappointed. If you think I'm apologizing for them, fine (although I'm just trying to lend some insight as to why their answer is what it is -- I don't have to like an answer to understand it.) But at this point, the exercise is called "beating a dead horse."

[cwoody222]

I wish the Mac version had a date. But it doesn't.

I also don't see the situation being much better by picking a date and then pushing it back again and again.

Longhorn is just as much vaporware as Mac TiVoToGo since Longhorn surely has no date set in stone.

It took them a full darn year for the Windows version. That's crazy. Obviously they're not able to turn this stuff around quickly. If the Mac version was a few weeks away they probably could give us a ballpark.

But I think it's more likely as far away as the Windows version was in Jan 2004... a year. It's pretty pointless to give someone a date that far away so why bother.

Being told "it'll be ready in 2006" makes me feel very only marginally better than hearing "we're working on it, it'll be ready when it's ready".

[SavMan]

Originally posted by cwoody222
I wish the Mac version had a date. But it doesn't.

I also don't see the situation being much better by picking a date and then pushing it back again and again.

Longhorn is just as much vaporware as Mac TiVoToGo since Longhorn surely has no date set in stone.
No, no one believes that Microsoft is, in fact, not working on an update at all. They release screenshots, give updates, reprise the release date. These are all steps that show progress... and also prove to us that there is a plan to release the software. We get no such picture from TiVo. We saw Windows and Mac versions in parity a year ago at CES... today we have absolutely nothing for Mac, and a full release for PC. The point isn't that I know my version is coming out next week, next year, third quarter 2005, whatever -- it's that I have proof that they are even considering releasing this software. Right now, all we have is a "good faith" statement, which considering TiVo's practices as of late, I can't particularly trust.
It took them a full darn year for the Windows version. That's crazy. Obviously they're not able to turn this stuff around quickly. If the Mac version was a few weeks away they probably could give us a ballpark.
If a Mac version was a few weeks away, they could give us an exact figure. The lack of info entirely points closer to "never." Besides, I'm quite sure that the delay was mostly due to the TiVo hardware and software needing work, not the Windows OS. Though we do know somewhere in that time period, the program stopped being dual-platform with USB dongles, and started being Windows-only with a Microsoft partnership. Once again, draw your own conclusions.
But I think it's more likely as far away as the Windows version was in Jan 2004... a year. It's pretty pointless to give someone a date that far away so why bother.
Maybe it's pointless to you, but not to most of us. We pay money every month (or in a huge chunk) to pay for service, research, development, and support. Right now, 20% of us are getting limited service and support. If you ask me, I think we're getting limited development, but that's just speculation. The facts are this: we pay the same for TiVo service as PC users, TiVo To Go was a selling point for the last several months online and in retail stores, and still we have nothing. I want to know NOW if I'm going to be considered a second-class citizen to this company. TiVo used to understand how to take care of all of its customers, but it seems like they're starting to shy away from that.

I pay a premium for TiVo service and equipment... for its interface and its integration into my home. TimeWarner, ComCast, and Dish all give away free boxes for a lesser monthly fee than TiVo (and have dual tuners, and they upgrade your hardware, and they don't need IR blasters, and they don't convert D/A/D/A again...). I expect to be getting my money's worth with this service, and if this is a harbinger of things to come, I want to get off sooner than later. Like I said, I'm a loyal customer, but "fool me once," etc.
Being told "it'll be ready in 2006" makes me feel very only marginally better than hearing "we're working on it, it'll be ready when it's ready".
And for me and countless others, it makes us feel MUCH better. When TiVo announces a date, that means they have accountability. TiVo announces "AAC support is coming, someday..." it never comes, they tell us now they have no plans including it anymore. Small uproar among Mac users, but that's about it.

TiVo announces TiVoToGo, AND posts a date. When they are late with this one, the pressure gets put on. They are ACCOUNTABLE for what they promised. When a company like TiVo declines to post a date, that means they simply have no confidence they can deliver... and that doesn't bode well for TiVo if they are going to chicken out like this.

[mdscott]

Mac users should be very familiar with computer companies not posting dates related to unreleased products. In fact some companies go so far as to sue people who post that information regarding their products...

mds :rolleyes:

[SavMan]

Originally posted by mdscott
Mac users should be very familiar with computer companies not posting dates related to unreleased products. In fact some companies go so far as to sue people who post that information regarding their products...

mds :rolleyes:

Cute. There's a world of difference between TiVo giving us a ballpark estimate of when they might someday release a Mac version of a program announced over a year ago and a website soliciting Apple employees to violate NDAs and disclose trade secrets. Furthermore, Apple is forced to sue, just as they are forced to sue anyone who uses their trademarks.

What sort of precedent are you thinking of, mdscott? I can't think of many products that fit the circumstances here.

Remember:
• it was intimated that the release would be simultaneous, over a year ago.
• in the meantime, the company in question has partnered with a competing corporation with serious anti-trust violations and a tendency to try to crush the competition through backroom deals, intimidation, and illegal activities.
• when a release comes, it is for the competing corporation's operating system only, using proprietary technology.
• development for release for the other corp's platform is mentioned, but no date is set, no progress given, no questions answered, and no promise is given. Nothing.

I'd like to know if this is common, like you say. I haven't ever seen this before, except for vaporware. Even with Halo, they told us it would be several years before a PC/Mac version was released, and that came from Microsoft! TiVo needs to respond to a large portion of their users who don't enjoy paying the same amount of money for half the functionality. TiVo has always been responsible with their Mac users in the past... what happened? Is it so damn much to get a freaking quarter prediction of when this will be done? Or are they just going to string us along so they can max out the profit they get from us before we leave in frustration?

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Originally posted by SavMan
What sort of precedent are you thinking of, mdscott? I can't think of many products that fit the circumstances here.

The precedent is Apple, which doesn't announce dates until things are already being manufactured. In fact, it doesn't even tell you what it's working on in most cases, major OS releases excluded. I don't think he was trying to equate not providing a release date with threatening the rumormongering sites.

• it was intimated that the release would be simultaneous, over a year ago.

Not by anyone from TiVo, by any account I've seen. In fact, they were pretty clear to point out that they didn't expect Mac support to be available at release time. Some people here, myself included, took the fact that they said the same thing about HMO and the fact that they demoed a Mac build of TTG at a trade show and speculated that it just might be ready, and we were wrong. But I certainly don't recall anyone from TiVo intimating anything.

• in the meantime, the company in question has partnered with a competing corporation with serious anti-trust violations and a tendency to try to crush the competition through backroom deals, intimidation, and illegal activities.

Microsoft has lots of partners.

• when a release comes, it is for the competing corporation's operating system only, using proprietary technology.

Tell me how they would have released this without using proprietary technology. Really, this smacks of paranoia.

• development for release for the other corp's platform is mentioned, but no date is set, no progress given, no questions answered, and no promise is given. Nothing.

Lots of companies, including Apple, decline any and all comment on unreleased products.

TiVo has always been responsible with their Mac users in the past... what happened? Is it so damn much to get a freaking quarter prediction of when this will be done? Or are they just going to string us along so they can max out the profit they get from us before we leave in frustration?

Your entire argument is based on the assumption, a very big assumption, that simply because they have provided no speculative release date that they are in fact never planning on providing TTG for the Mac. I'll grant that it's not impossible, but that's still a pretty big leap. They have said they were working on it, and don't choose to provide a date, for some reason known only to TiVo. One of the possibilities is that they are lying to us, but there are a lot of other possible explanations that have been discussed here that still see TTG for Mac being delivered to us.

The horse is dead. I'm done beating it.

[timg]

I think a lot of the frustration over this issue stems from the wording Tivo used...

To me, there is a giant difference between "we are working on ways to enable playback on Mac" and "we will be releasing a Mac version". So far, they have not made any comments that could be interpreted to mean that they will release a Mac version. They might be planning on a Mac version, and have every intention of delivering one, but they have stopped well short of any committment to one.

[tonyf3]

Big assumptions, dead horses, non-committments, major frustrations. Not good. No matter how you slice it. Not good for Tivo, not good for it's Mac users.

Dennis, thanks for the in-depth analysis.

[tonyf3]

Oh...and it's Day 21. Still waiting for 7.1

[tonyf3]

Hey TiVo!, How's the "we're working on that" coming. The Mac Users are still waiting. No 7.1 either yet for me anyway.

[tonyf3]

Anyone see this TiVo like, Google TV thing.
http://www.forbes.com/2005/01/25/0125autofacescan02.html?partner=rss

Interesting. Maybe someday the Mac Mini might sprout RCA out ports or something suitable. Add a GUI and you use this to get your guide data. hmmm.

[SavMan]

Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson
The precedent is Apple, which doesn't announce dates until things are already being manufactured. In fact, it doesn't even tell you what it's working on in most cases, major OS releases excluded. I don't think he was trying to equate not providing a release date with threatening the rumormongering sites.
Ahh, no. First of all, you are talking about Apple's HARDWARE division. You are talking about them not telling people that they are releasing a faster iMac in three weeks, in order that people will still buy the models in channel. This has nothing to do with the software we are talking about. It's a misleading and inappropriate analogy.
Not by anyone from TiVo, by any account I've seen. In fact, they were pretty clear to point out that they didn't expect Mac support to be available at release time. Some people here, myself included, took the fact that they said the same thing about HMO and the fact that they demoed a Mac build of TTG at a trade show and speculated that it just might be ready, and we were wrong. But I certainly don't recall anyone from TiVo intimating anything.
Absolute crap, Dennis. The sheer fact that TTG was shown in complete parity across platforms an entire year ago is, by definition, intimating that there would be a Mac version. And NO ONE said that Mac support wouldn't be or wasn't expected to be available right away. TiVo told us nothing about it, just showed it to us on a Mac and a PC at the last CES, then promised it by year's end. If you are standing RIGHT IN FRONT OF A MAC running TiVoToGo, and you say TTG will be out by a certain date, you are intimating that the Mac version will be there too. Don't split hairs on this, it doesn't help your argument.
Microsoft has lots of partners.
And so does North Korea. That doesn't really mean a damn thing, does it? If you're going to be flippant, at least have a logical point. No one can argue that Microsoft isn't one of the best companies at stifling competition and removing choice from the market. For Microsoft to sign a partnership half-way through the development of a technology that was shown to be working on a Mac previously, and then have the technology debut with only a Windows version and no Mac version in sight should give anyone pause. If you choose to be naive about it, that's your prerogative... you already have TiVo Desktop v.2.0.
Tell me how they would have released this without using proprietary technology. Really, this smacks of paranoia.
You are telling me the only way to decrypt a file is by using a Windows-only decryption scheme? Seriously, you are smarter than this. You may not like what I am saying, but your arguments are specious at best.

And here's why I'm not paranoid: Quicktime is the industry-standard for digital video. It's what most cameras record in, it's what more websites stream in, it's the basis for MPEG-4, for pete's sake! Why then, are the .tivo files only playable through WMP? Quicktime for Windows has been around for years, it would mean cross-platform coding, yet still it's only available through the Windows Media PLayer. It's a crappy media player by any standard, yet it's what TiVo chose. Partnerships usually mean that money has exchanged hands... I see no reason to believe that TiVo hasn't been bribed into keeping this off of the Mac for a couple months, maybe a year... or ever.
Lots of companies, including Apple, decline any and all comment on unreleased products.
See above. When it comes to software, Apple is very forthcoming. And besides, this is another inappropriate analogy. TiVo did not refuse to comment on an unreleased product, they told us they were working on making playback work... then when we asked for any sort of timeline (which Apple tells us all the time) we got rude responses. I mean, how dare we want to know if we'll be left behind after supporting this company!
Your entire argument is based on the assumption, a very big assumption, that simply because they have provided no speculative release date that they are in fact never planning on providing TTG for the Mac. I'll grant that it's not impossible, but that's still a pretty big leap. They have said they were working on it, and don't choose to provide a date, for some reason known only to TiVo. One of the possibilities is that they are lying to us, but there are a lot of other possible explanations that have been discussed here that still see TTG for Mac being delivered to us.
I know it's a big assumption... but Occam's Razor is in effect here. The most likely reason for TiVo having no Mac version now is that they will never have one (or they will have one a year from now, after the bribe from MS runs out). Moreover, there have been no good reasons given at all why this version doesn't exist. "There aren't as many Mac users," is nothing but an excuse, and one that is true will lead me to dump this company like yesterday's garbage. Excuses aren't reasons. If TiVo has a reason, let them tell us now. If they have proof, a show of good faith, that they are actually working on this probable vaporware, then let them show us. Otherwise, there has been not ONE good reason to believe TiVo's carefully worded statement.
The horse is dead. I'm done beating it.
Once again, easy for you to proclaim the horse dead -- you have to program already. But I guess I'm old-school (for a 21 year old, anyway). I just thought that corporations were still trying to please their investors and customers. And by locking out a large number of their core users, TiVo is showing the opposite.

So, if you are done, just frickin' leave, no one forced you to post here. But as long as TiVo is checking this board, (and they do, of course. The independence of this website from TiVo, inc is a well-known joke on this board.) I will continue to air and discuss our grievances. That's why this BBS exists. We Mac users expect a lot from our products, it comes from being spoiled by Apple for so many years. TiVo used to be a company like Apple that understood this. We are beginning to see the breakdown of that trait.

[themacjedi]

I agree with SavMan.

Does anyone here have any connections with someone like Kevin Rose (The Screen Savers) so he could use their show to put some pressure on TiVo for us Mac users. Companies hate bad publicity.

Kevin if you're listening we need somebody on TV to point out how disgruntled all of us Mac using TiVo owners are.

I was excited when I saw that I received a TiVo newsletter today because of what they say about Macs and TiVoToGo.
http://www.tivo.com/4.9.19.3.asp#4
I guess they didn't mean this newsletter.

[LeberMac]

Originally posted by Unix_Beard
I was about to pay the lifetime fee for mine. I'm holding off now.
Not going to pay lifetime fee here, either.

I actually logged on today specifically TO pay my lifetime fee AND to download the "TiVo to Go" feature. I don’t often check the TiVo site, being merely the casual TiVo user, using it a fair amount and enjoying the limited functionality of my "NON-AAC capable" Tivo Music & Photos service.

I was SHOCKED (Yes, SHOCKED I tell you!) to find that the TiVotoGo would not work on my Mac, and that there are apparently no plans from TiVo to make one. (Or at least no denial of their apparent lack of ambition TO make one.)

I can remember filling out the loooong questionaire from TiVo about a year ago, asking me about what features I would want in any "networkable, DVD-recordable" functionality. That questionaire apparently molded their thinking on this issue. I must not have been forceful enough in my "Make it work with iMovie and iDVD" suggestions.

Seriously, what can the hangup be? After perusing the lists on this messageboard, it is apparent that a bunch of amateurs/semipros can find a way to make this work while going through VirtualPC. Which means that AT LEAST TiVo COULD theoretically make a conduit that would allow functionality with iMovie and iDVD. I'm sure that Apple and TiVo could agree on a simple DRM codec that would work well enough, just like iTunes. I therefore posit that either
a) TiVo does not have the proper employees with programming knowledge/skills to accomplish this... or...
b) TiVo cannot find or will not hire programming consultants with the knowledge to accomplish this... or...
c) TiVo does not care about its Mac user base (Out of ignorance, spite, or budgetary necessity)

I know several UNIX folks who have begged me to let them hack my TiVo ever since I bought it 2 years ago. I have always refused, thinking that there was no functionality that they could provide me with that was worth the disabling of my Series 2 DVR. Now I think I will let them experiment. The first thing to go will be my $12.95 monthly fee. I hear that there are other "free" services that will accomplish the same thing.

Oh, and I think the real answer to my question is "c". I'm pissed!

[LeberMac]

Since this is merely my second post, does anyone know whether ANYONE from TiVo ever reads these posts? A couple of "experts" from TiVo would certainly help. Even though this is not the "official" TiVo chat board.

[cwoody222]

Yes, TiVo reads these posts.

They've already stated all they will / care to share about a Mac version here on these boards, though.

[LeberMac]

Well, cwoody2222, then I am even more convinced that they care little what I post here.
Now I'm sure my answer is "c".

[cwoody222]

They care (that's not to say I 100% a Mac version is around the corner... if ever). They just have no new details to share at this point.

[LeberMac]

Originally posted by corjulo
Hey
Tivo Bill. As a stock holder I think your attitude kinda SUCKS. It's bad enough how much money I've lost last year because Tivo was being run by idiots. Now I've got to listen to you insult people. At the very least we want an engineer, familiar with the Apple software, to give us an update. Is that all that hard? No date, just the nuts and bolt of what is done and needs to be done.
Seems poor TiVo Bill has taken a beating in this thread. I agree, perhaps one of the engineers/programmers from TiVo would be welcome in this thread.

Or, judging from the pace of this project, *the* engineer/programmer?

<that was a joke, joking guys.. ha ha..>

Someone who can perhaps enlighten us to the source of the problem? I'm sure there are plenty of talented people reading this thread who would like to make a Mac version of TiVotoGo.
I'll help any way I can but I'm talking from the media side not the engineering side... :(
--
LeberMac

[LeberMac]

Originally posted by cwoody222
Yes, TiVo reads these posts.
They've already stated all they will / care to share about a Mac version here on these boards, though.
I think all these people want is SOME kind of affirmation that "Yes, yes we know we are very late releasing it but we ARE working on a Mac version, we value our loyal Mac users, etc. etc."
Coming from someone of importance (Like the V.P. of Marketing/Public Relations or perhaps someone above him, like the janitorial staff) this short little missive would probably quell the unrest.
--
LeberMac
(BTW before you get all antsy, *I'm* in marketing/PR...and used to be a janitor...)

[sayonaraML]

I know that might sound overly harsh but after making my way through 16 some odd pages of posts, I think that the Mac folk ( me included) have a right to their anger here. And while Bill and some others probably posted with the best intentions in the world (as individuals), the corporate line here is painful. Yes we're working on a program, no we don't know for sure if it will ever see the light of day and if you think we're going to give you a timeline based on that house of hay, you've got to be crazy...
So how exactly happy and patient do you Tivo apologists want us to be? I got the system upgrade and it does me no good at all. I'm paying good money to a company (that's called support) that has all sorts of security concerns but instead releases a program that only works with a leaking sieve of a media player with a whole host of security issues of its own.
Let me address the whole paranoia thing while I'm at it...Is the direction away from Tivo by DirectTV of financial consequence to Tivo? Is the failed deal with Comcast in the same financial ballpark? What better way to tide oneself over financially then a deal with Uncle Bill? A bucket of bread with the only stipulation being no support for OSX (or Linux or Unix) seems to be a win/win deal for both Tivo and Microsoft and hey, you're only excluding a very small percentage of market share.
While its true that Mac market share is pretty small globally, I think it would have to be higher among Tivo users judging from the posts. To release an advance product such as TivoToGo and exclude a significant number of users AND give the mother of all lame responses to requests for more information invites and justifies all of the anger I've seen in this thread. And Cwoody and Bill who are probably great and helpful guys with the best intentions...well, see above, should be more understanding of the paying customer.
Peace.:cool:

[rog]

i almost hate to post some constructive material in this thread, jeez... calm down boys. ;)

but i will anyway. have you mac users not heard of JavaHMO? it's a java-based app that supports HMO, and very recently TTG. it is available for windows, linux, and mac os x. i haven't installed it on my iBook yet, but i've seen this running on a friend's linux machine and this software rocks! it's actually got one up on the real TiVo Desktop software for windows: it can display web pages, weather, stock quotes, and more on the TiVo in addition to the normal photos/music. plus the new beta version supports TTG.

http://javahmo.sourceforge.net/index.html

have fun! if you try it out, let me know how the mac TTG functionality works. i still don't have my 7.1 firmware, so i can't test it yet.

[note: the software linked to above does not circumvent any of the DRM included in TTG, but rather it is based on the TiVo source code and preserves the MAK. this is my understanding, but if the mods disagree, i hope they will let me know.]

[SavMan]

Originally posted by rog
i almost hate to post some constructive material in this thread, jeez... calm down boys. ;)
If there was anything more constructive than what we have done here, it would already be posted.
but i will anyway. have you mac users not heard of JavaHMO? it's a java-based app that supports HMO, and very recently TTG. it is available for windows, linux, and mac os x. i haven't installed it on my iBook yet, but i've seen this running on a friend's linux machine and this software rocks! it's actually got one up on the real TiVo Desktop software for windows: it can display web pages, weather, stock quotes, and more on the TiVo in addition to the normal photos/music. plus the new beta version supports TTG.
Yes, we all know about JavaHMO. It is not new by any means. And yes, the beta version supports TTG.
have fun! if you try it out, let me know how the mac TTG functionality works. i still don't have my 7.1 firmware, so i can't test it yet.
Do you really think we'd have seven pages of posts on this board if it was simply solved by a buggy HMO program? The TTG "function" of JavaHMO just allows you to download the file off of the TiVo, something anyone could do with a web browser anyway. Only TiVo (through their deal with Microsoft) can release the software that can allow the .tivo file to be decoded for replay... which of course you would know if you could read your own words at the end of the post:
[note: the software linked to above does not circumvent any of the DRM included in TTG, but rather it is based on the TiVo source code and preserves the MAK. this is my understanding, but if the mods disagree, i hope they will let me know.]
I appreciate you stopping by, but if you're going to be smug about this, at least have SOME idea what you are talking about.

[rog]

wow. really, i was only trying to help, and i was definitely not trying to be "smug". :)

i clearly said i had not tested the mac TTG functionality.

Originally posted by SavMan
The TTG "function" of JavaHMO just allows you to download the file off of the TiVo, something anyone could do with a web browser anyway. Only TiVo (through their deal with Microsoft) can release the software that can allow the .tivo file to be decoded for replay... which of course you would know if you could read your own words at the end of the post.

regarding my statements at the end of the post: i was assuming that JavaHMO worked off of the TTG source code, in order to actually extract and decode the .tivo files, while maintaining the MAK-based encryption. i figured it would ask for the MAK, and then decrypt the file. i was apparently way over-optimistic, and i stand corrected.

[SavMan]

i almost hate to post some constructive material in this thread, jeez... calm down boys.

but i will anyway. have you mac users not heard of JavaHMO?

Can't get much more smug than that, buddy. You swooped in, assumed we were all idiots who had never heard of JavaHMO, then proceeded to claim it would fix all of our problems despite never having used it. Smug.

[themacjedi]

Originally posted by SavMan
Can't get much more smug than that, buddy. You swooped in, assumed we were all idiots who had never heard of JavaHMO, then proceeded to claim it would fix all of our problems despite never having used it. Smug.

, sorry rog but SavMan is right and funny at the same time.

[rog]

yeah, he's really hilarious... omg i can't stop laughing... he called someone smug... omg that's soo funny.

apparently the purpose of this thread is to whine and moan about the lack of mac support, and not to talk about anything that might be helpful. so i'm on my way. have fun.

[themacjedi]

Originally posted by rog
yeah, he's really hilarious... omg i can't stop laughing... he called someone smug... omg that's soo funny.

apparently the purpose of this thread is to whine and moan about the lack of mac support, and not to talk about anything that might be helpful. so i'm on my way. have fun.

No wait, rog, don't go away mad, just go away.

Seriously, we have talked about everything here and now this thread is just growing from pointless posts like your last one and this one. We want TiVo to step up and until they do there won't be anymore useful info to contribute, cause we've already heard it all.

If I remember correctly you're new here, so don't take this stuff personally, we are just tired of waiting.

[futerfas]

I'm not sure if this helps, but I did just notice that if you are using safari, in the bookmarks menu, click on Rendezvous and you can your DVR listed there.

[themacjedi]

Originally posted by futerfas
I'm not sure if this helps, but I did just notice that if you are using safari, in the bookmarks menu, click on Rendezvous and you can your DVR listed there.

I started a separate thread about that a week ago, it doesn't really help. But thanks anyway.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218305

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by rog
i almost hate to post some constructive material in this thread, jeez... calm down boys. ;)

but i will anyway. have you mac users not heard of JavaHMO? it's a java-based app that supports HMO, and very recently TTG. it is available for windows, linux, and mac os x. i haven't installed it on my iBook yet, but i've seen this running on a friend's linux machine and this software rocks! it's actually got one up on the real TiVo Desktop software for windows: it can display web pages, weather, stock quotes, and more on the TiVo in addition to the normal photos/music. plus the new beta version supports TTG.

http://javahmo.sourceforge.net/index.html

have fun! if you try it out, let me know how the mac TTG functionality works. i still don't have my 7.1 firmware, so i can't test it yet.

[note: the software linked to above does not circumvent any of the DRM included in TTG, but rather it is based on the TiVo source code and preserves the MAK. this is my understanding, but if the mods disagree, i hope they will let me know.]

Downloaded it last week. Can't use it because I'm still waiting for 7.1. Also can't play files it if I did because of what SavMan lists above.

[SavMan]

So, we've heard a little bit about the process involved with decoding the .tivo file -- anyone here smarter than me (should be plenty) want to let us know the basics behind it? Perhaps someone could do TiVo's job for them and help figure out a filtering mechanism like DirectShow to decode .tivo?

Anyone?

Bueller?

(sorry, it was on Comedy Central this morning)

[tonyf3]

Finally! I got 7.1 today. Downloaded a 1/2hr show using the web /ip interface. I now have a .tivo file that needs decoding. Now the fum begins.

[themacjedi]

Originally posted by tonyf3
Finally! I got 7.1 today. Downloaded a 1/2hr show using the web /ip interface. I now have a .tivo file that needs decoding. Now the fum begins.

Girls just want to have FUM.

[tonyf3]

Hey, sorry it was dark. The backlighting was off on my Aluminum 15" keyboard. and now the FUN!
Begins.

Try Not...Do......Or Do...Not.
Adventure....heh....excitment...heh...a Jedi craves not these things.

[Unix_Beard]

OK. My hard drive is filling up with .tivo files while eagerly anticipating Mac support.

[scheckeNYK]

Got my 7.x update today, but I can't access the menu via browser as described. Using 10.3.7 with Safari. Airport Extreme wireless network set to allow 802.11b only. 128 WEP encyrption w/a valid (obviously - or I wouldn't get the update) HEX password. Have restarted both my Mac and Tivo. Tried directly typing the URL and using the Rendezvous bookmarks method but nothing seems to work. If it matters, the Airport Extreme issues IP addresses in the 10.0.1.x fashion. Advice? Thanks in advance.

[themacjedi]

Originally posted by scheckeNYK
Got my 7.x update today, but I can't access the menu via browser as described. Using 10.3.7 with Safari. Airport Extreme wireless network set to allow 802.11b only. 128 WEP encyrption w/a valid (obviously - or I wouldn't get the update) HEX password. Have restarted both my Mac and Tivo. Tried directly typing the URL and using the Rendezvous bookmarks method but nothing seems to work. Advice? Thanks in advance.

Your Mac's built-in firewall could be causing the problem, or personal web sharing.

[cwoody222]

You may also want to try javaHMO. the newest beta offers Max OS X support for downloading shows. I personally can't get it to work, but others can. I can get my Safari to access my TiVo should so javaHMO not working isn't a problem for me.

[scheckeNYK]

thanks for the help guys, i turned personal file sharing off to no avail, and the firewall wasn't on to begin with. no such luck. attemping to download javahmo, but i'm skeptical...

[mikeorind]

Has anyone been able to get GraphEdit to run in Virtual PC. I'm using vpc 6.1 and Windows xp. Whenever I try to start GE, it fails.

[themacjedi]

Originally posted by scheckeNYK
thanks for the help guys, i turned personal file sharing off to no avail, and the firewall wasn't on to begin with. no such luck. attemping to download javahmo, but i'm skeptical...

Just in case you you're mistaken, I said Personal Web Sharing (which uses port 80) not Personal File Sharing.

Restart your TiVo, see it shows up in Safari when clicking the Rendezvous bookmark.

[scheckeNYK]

I did miscorrectly read your message Jedi. Consquently, both were turned off. After rebooting both the mac and tivo, still no access. Is there anything that should be enabled in Sharing in Sys Prefs?

[themacjedi]

Originally posted by scheckeNYK
I did miscorrectly read your message Jedi. Consquently, both were turned off. After rebooting both the mac and tivo, still no access. Is there anything that should be enabled in Sharing in Sys Prefs?

Does it show up in Safari, click the link to understand what I mean.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218305

If it doesn't show up you might have a network problem not a Mac problem.

[scheckeNYK]

"No Rendezvous Websites Available" Perhaps there is a larger network problem, as I am having trouble networking with a Windows coomputer and both sides are configged correctly...as far as I can tell. thanks for trying and if you think of something else please let me know.

[futerfas]

Try downloading rendezvous browser here (http://www.tildesoft.com/Programs.html) and see if tivo shows up.

[cwoody222]

I was confused by that link the other day.

You have to select "Show all Bookmarks" under the Bookmarks menu. That's where you should see the TiVo under Rendezvous.

Alternatively you can click the Bookmarks button that's on the very left of the Bookmarks bar (but not all people use the bar).

[scheckeNYK]

Right, that's the path I took which gave me the "No Rendezvous Websites Available" designation.

[Unix_Beard]

I just type in

https://MY_TIVO_IP/nowplaying

And you need to use httpS not http

[futerfas]

Check to see if your MAK is available, if not, force a call, then it should work.

[scheckeNYK]

MAK is unavailable through the Tivo even after forcing a call, but I can get it from the website. Now I'm really confused!

[futerfas]

If the MAK is univaliable on the TiVo, you wont be able to get into the website.

[greg_burns]

Originally posted by Unix_Beard
I just type in

https://MY_TIVO_IP/nowplaying

And you need to use httpS not http

Try adding the /index.html.

It does not seem to default to that file...

Greg

[scheckeNYK]

MAK finally showed up after about 3 forced connections. Thanks futerfas!

[tonyf3]

Just tried VPC 6.0. Downloaded TiVo desktop 2.0. Installed it but VPC can't find my LAN. It's made up it's own IP address. On TiVo install it mentioned something about codecs. I'll hav eto go back and re-read previous posts on this again now that I have 7.1. Just trying work arounds till 2.0 for Mac comes out.

[thehand]

after the tivo goes throught the tivo desktop is the resulting file still encrypted?

[mattman]

Tony-

I'm not a VPC expert, but you'll need to look at how the networking is set up on the PC there. I believe there is a feature called the Virtual Switch, that may either be hindering, or need to be turned on to help. I just can't remember myself, sorry, but I hope this helps your "pc" see the LAN.

Matt

[cwoody222]

Originally posted by thehand
after the tivo goes throught the tivo desktop is the resulting file still encrypted?

Huh?

What does "after the tivo goes through the tivo desktop" mean?

In any event - the .tivo file is always encrypted. The only official way to decrypt it is to burn it to DVD and then rip it back onto your PC.

[cwoody222]

Originally posted by mattman
Tony-

I'm not a VPC expert, but you'll need to look at how the networking is set up on the PC there. I believe there is a feature called the Virtual Switch, that may either be hindering, or need to be turned on to help. I just can't remember myself, sorry, but I hope this helps your "pc" see the LAN.

Matt

I believe when you set up VPC there's an option to let the PC use your Mac's Internet connection or it's own. I've always told it to use the Mac's and I've never had a problem.

But I'm pretty sure my Router will still then assign my WindowsOS a separate IP address.

I'd check myself but I uninstalled my copy of VPC.

[tonyf3]

Thanks guys, I'll have to check out the setting on the virtual switch in VPC.
By the way: Speaking purely from a Design aesthetic, The GUI on the Windows TiVo Desktop 2.0 is somewhat uninspired.
I mean, the same guys who did the GUI on the TiVo itself couldn't have done this.
It doesn't even relate to what they've done previously. The user experience is part of what
makes a TiVo, a TiVo. Not just a piece of hardware that says tivo. I'm somewhat underwhelmed, but then again this is the windows version. The Mac version will most likely be more inspired.

[tonyf3]

Wait, now that I think of it there were the little column record status icons in both the web & windows version.
I guess it's just that windows look thats feels unwelcoming. I think if it's technically possible the GUI should look as close to what's on your TV as possible.

(sorry for the design diatribe)...Graphic Designers eyes.

[cwoody222]

I agree. I use a Mac but I did borrow a Windows laptop to try out TiVo Desktop 2.0.

The UI did not scream with the usability that I expect from my TiVo :(

[LeberMac]

Originally posted by rog
[B]i almost hate to post some constructive material in this thread, jeez... calm down boys. ;)
but i will anyway.
<snip constructive material>
if you try it out, let me know how the mac TTG functionality works. i still don't have my 7.1 firmware, so i can't test it yet.
When I get my firmware code I will try it out. I was *NOT* aware of this JavaHMO, and I thank you, rog, for the suggestion.
Any solution will be acceptable whilst I wait and twiddle my thumbs for the Mac OS X release of TivoToGo.
--
LeberMac

[cwoody222]

keep twiddl'ing......


:(

[SavMan]

Originally posted by LeberMac
When I get my firmware code I will try it out. I was *NOT* aware of this JavaHMO, and I thank you, rog, for the suggestion.
Any solution will be acceptable whilst I wait and twiddle my thumbs for the Mac OS X release of TivoToGo.
See, this is why I reacted the way I did. Rog comes in, having read none of the thread (or any threads on JavaHMO) and implies we are all stupid for not using this program. Another thread newbie comes in and assumes that it is the solution he's been waiting for.

JavaHMO's TTG "feature" is USELESS. Until TiVo can get off their ass and release a decoder, or someone cracks it (most likely our only recourse), there will be no "solution."

[LeberMac]

Originally posted by SavMan
See, this is why I reacted the way I did. Rog comes in, having read none of the thread (or any threads on JavaHMO) and implies we are all stupid for not using this program. Another thread newbie comes in and assumes that it is the solution he's been waiting for.
JavaHMO's TTG "feature" is USELESS. Until TiVo can get off their ass and release a decoder, or someone cracks it (most likely our only recourse), there will be no "solution."
Indeed it appears that I shall be twiddling my thumbs for a while.
I can't say whether or not the solution will work since I do not have any kind of registration code yet. Which means I can't lay the smack down on SavMan if I can make this work. Or conversely I can't grab my torch and pitchfork and join him in his angry crusade if it STILL doesn't work.

I will say that I *AM* tired of being on the short end of product releases simply because I own a Mac. I'll never switch to PC (NEVEEER! <shakes fist>) and I am resigned to wait until TiVo releases something.

However, whilst I am waiting, I am reading up on creating my OWN media center that is basically an open-source version of TiVo (and tallying the costs...) Better hurry, programmers - 15% of your market might not be here when you get back to us!

[LeberMac]

Don't worry, guys: Jon's working on it:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/11/22/dvd_jon_unlocks_itunes_locked/

If he can find a way to crack Apple's DRM, not too far away from cracking TiVo's.

[SavMan]

Trust me. I have two tivos updated now, I've been running JavaHMO for over a year, and the updated version is useless. All it does is download, (and sometimes, it can't even do that) not decode. You'll notice that nowhere on the entire web has anyone been able to play a .tivo file on the web, especially with JavaHMO -- so don't plan on laying the smack down anytime soon. ;)

[LeberMac]

Originally posted by SavMan
Trust me. I have two tivos updated now, I've been running JavaHMO for over a year, and the updated version is useless. All it does is download, (and sometimes, it can't even do that) not decode. You'll notice that nowhere on the entire web has anyone been able to play a .tivo file on the web, especially with JavaHMO -- so don't plan on laying the smack down anytime soon. ;)
Then I'm sharpening my pitchfork, lookin for my lighter, and gettin on the next flight to Alviso, CA!

[tonyf3]

ffmegx
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/15473

We might get some help here. They've done TiVo type 1 files previously.

Also, did anyone see the HME Developer challenge.
HME is the code name for TiVo's powerful, open platform. HME allows developers to build exciting, new applications for broadband-connected TiVo Series2 using the Java™ programming language. Starting today, TiVo invites the developer community to download the HME SDK and get started with their own creative development. And to celebrate, we're sponsoring a contest called the TiVo Developer Challenge. Winners will be announced at the 2005 JavaOne conference in San Francisco.

My answers for some of the Categories.
Best Music Application: itunes!
Best Photo Application: iphoto!!

I don't get these guys. Do they want a third party to do the Mac version of TiVo desktop 2.0 ?

Still waiting.

[tonyf3]

One month and counting. We better not still be waiting on this come July's Macworld.

[SavMan]

I wish they'd just tell us they aren't going to make it. At least then I wouldn't have to wait for it.

[rworne]

Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson
They'd want to do what they do on the Windows side and reuse the Apple MPEG-2 codec to do the decompress (it's heavily optimized already, works, and, unlike on the Windows side, would for nearly all people be the only codec to use and not suffer the compatibility issues you run into with DirectShow.)

Just so everyone knows, this MPEG-2 component for Quicktime is not included with Quicktime (or Quicktime Pro). It's an additional purchase for $19.99 or so or comes free with DVD Studio Pro.

It's also a playback-only codec. You need DVD Studio Pro to get the MPEG-2 encoder. Last I checked DVDSP was about $999.

Yes, there are free solutions to the MPEG-2 codec, and a way to get iDVD to encode MPEG-2 for you. I just posted the official "Apple" solutions.

Still, something has to be done about the .tivo file decryption. I would think that would not be so much of an issue for TiVo to solve.

What would be neat is TiVo->iDVD integration, with a new theme for TiVo recordings. The problem is that iDVD leaves unencrypted MPEG-2 files lying around if you know where to look for them.

[tonyf3]

Originally posted by rworne
Just so everyone knows, this MPEG-2 component for Quicktime is not included with Quicktime (or Quicktime Pro). It's an additional purchase for $19.99 or so or comes free with DVD Studio Pro.

It's also a playback-only codec. You need DVD Studio Pro to get the MPEG-2 encoder. Last I checked DVDSP was about $999.

Yes, there are free solutions to the MPEG-2 codec, and a way to get iDVD to encode MPEG-2 for you. I just posted the official "Apple" solutions.

Still, something has to be done about the .tivo file decryption. I would think that would not be so much of an issue for TiVo to solve.

What would be neat is TiVo->iDVD integration, with a new theme for TiVo recordings. The problem is that iDVD leaves unencrypted MPEG-2 files lying around if you know where to look for them.


No mention of the Directshow DRM problem.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

The fact that the MPEG-2 component isn't included by default isn't really any different than the Windows side, for what it's worth (Windows doesn't include a MPEG-2 codec, and you have to choose from multiple third-party codecs to make TTG work there, with people having varying levels of success with different codecs.) Based on what the Windows folk are seeing, having just the Apple codec to deal with sounds like it would dramatically simplify things.

There isn't really any need for an MPEG-2 encoder, as all of the DVD burning software (certainly all of the commercial stuff) for the Mac includes such encoders, and you only need to reencode those resolutions that aren't in DVD-compliant form.

I'm not sure what the "DirectShow DRM problem" is -- it's TiVo's DRM in a DirectShow wrapper, which shouldn't pose any issues, you'd just need a QuickTime wrapper for the same DRM (and enough support in QuickTime that it'd be as, ahem, "secure" as the Windows version, which may require QT7.) It's not as if this is Microsoft's new Windows Media 10-specific DRM we're talking about, it borders on a "how do I package this code" issue.

[thehand]

Originally posted by tonyf3
Just tried VPC 6.0. Downloaded TiVo desktop 2.0. Installed it but VPC can't find my LAN. It's made up it's own IP address. On TiVo install it mentioned something about codecs. I'll hav eto go back and re-read previous posts on this again now that I have 7.1. Just trying work arounds till 2.0 for Mac comes out.

after switching network radio button to virtual switch instead of shared networking, my virtual pc (compliments of Virtual PC 7.0) now sees my DVR and lists it on the access control tab of the server properties panel of the server menu item with the name of the DVR and its ip address which is the same address listed in Tivo's read new messages & setup/settings/phone & network/phone & network set up/IP address:192....

currently downloading the file at the same speed as that other machine I have that runs Windows XP natively. that's funny because I get the full bandwith of 100 mbps on that other machine's ethernet, but on the virtual pc it only gets a percentage of that at 10mbps.

question: after the the tranfer as opposed to download <because the DVR is in the same room and I hope I'm directly accessing the DVR's hard drive without the internet between them> and it goes through processing of the Tivo Desktop, will I be able to manipulate this file my video tools? in other words after the file goes through the Tivo Desktop is it decrypted?

[cwoody222]

No, TiVo Desktop will not decrypt it at all.

There is no way to decrypt the file that can be discussed on these forums. Any way to decrypt it or play it inside of Virtual PC would be horrendously slow anyway.

There is no way to do anything w/ the encrpypted file on your Mac (without Virtual PC).

Sorry :(

[drjlb]

I am having what seems to be a unique problem. I can get to the webserver/nowplaying list, no problem. When I click download, I get a download that is .tivo. Problem is, it's only 4 kb in size. Since I can't open the .tivo file, I have no idea what it is. This happens with any program I try to download. The blue bar in the download manager always goes to completion, so it's not as if the download is timing out. The download is going to completion, it's just a really small file. I'm just trying to get a bunch of programs off my TiVo to free hd space. I'll worry about unscrambling them later.

Edit: more details

[tonyf3]

I'm about ready to request that my monthly service fee be credited until the Mac TiVo Togo is released. I'm on a supported box TiVo series 2. They had Mac support previously. I'm paying for services that windows users get and I don't so....IF it's being worked on and it's on it's way, it should not be a problem. If it's not being worked on, this will be an issue for them.

[Quevar]

Tivo has a survey up on their website. Tell them you are irritated about a lack of information about when the Mac version of TTG will be available. When enough people say something, then maybe they'll tell us something about it.

Here is a link to the survey:
TiVo survey (http://research.tivo.com/ihavetivo/feedback.html)

I filled it out saying that the reason I came to look today was "Other" with a filled in response saying: "To find out about a Macintosh version of TTG."

[SavMan]

I did it, though I wish I'd know it would do anything.

[tonyf3]

Tivo has a survey up on their website. Tell them you are irritated about a lack of information about when the Mac version of TTG will be available. When enough people say something, then maybe they'll tell us something about it.

Here is a link to the survey:
TiVo survey (http://research.tivo.com/ihavetivo/feedback.html)

I filled it out saying that the reason I came to look today was "Other" with a filled in response saying: "To find out about a Macintosh version of TTG."

Filled it out, voiced our issues strongly on Mac support.
Anbody know who the new CEO is I'll write him too!

[tonyf3]

Why bother releasing 1.9 when what everyone is waiting for is 2.0 for Mac. I don't think all incremental updates have to be released. Do they? Let's go already.
TiVo Desktop for Mac v1.9 (236kb) Updated February 09, 2005. This update contains: a revised preferences mechanism, support for photo album heirarchies, a new plug-in API, and minor bug fixes. Music & Photos only.

So we gained what here?

[Dennis Wilkinson]

...support for photo album heirarchies...

So we gained what here?

Sounds like support for the iPhoto in iLife '05.

Edit: and apparently, something else (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=224294&#post2608116), too.

[tonyf3]

Dennis,
Have you played with Java HMO. I tried it out but most of the functionality doesn't work.
I turned it off with it's control app. It's still showing up on the TiVo side with the expanded interface. Any idea of how remove it from the TiVo. I don't want it to step on any future updates to the TiVo desktop. (Hoping were close to 2.0 and the Mac DRM issues being resloved).

[tonyf3]

Interesting article about (Apple, TiVo & Sony). Scroll down past older patent info to the section: Speculation Option A.

http://www.macobserver.com/columns/devilsadvocate/2005/20050121.shtml

[tonyf3]

By the way. I'm just wondering. Software Development / Egineering guys. Looking at your project to do lists, and gant charts. It's been oh...1 1/2 months now. Any better idea of when you'll have Mac support? and thanks for 1.9 you've obviously been doing something.

[tonyf3]

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2503309#post2503309

Quote:

Originally posted by tefler
The thing that would be interesting to know on the OS X side is whether Quicktime or other viewers support this filter chain mechanism. Can the quicktime plug-ins be chained or does it just look at a file type and send it to a plug-in which it expects to be able to handle the whole thing?


There are a number of ways to do this, but QuickTime isn't a filter planner in the same sense as DirectShow. Generally speaking, what you'd do to make this work in QuickTime using Apple's MPEG2 codec would most likely be to write a movie import component, which is a plug in that would take the .tivo file and, in memory, build a QuickTime movie that referred to the data and contained an MPEG2 muxed track, and set the media handler for the track to a custom handler. Then, you'd build a media handler component (which is what QuickTime would ask to actually get at samples) that would handle the decryption and hand those samples off to whatever codec they end up being fed to. At least, that's how I'd try to do it if I were writing the code.

I'm not 100% certain how you'd prevent the raw data from being just written out in this scenario, but the API does have some support for this to handle FairPlay-encoded audio. There are also "Media Keys" in the API. Most of the QuickTime code I've written is in support of authoring applications, and frankly, DRM of the media isn't something we've spent a lot of time on (which still surprises me, since most/many leaks of material actually happen in the post-production environment.)


__________________
Dennis


*

[juanian]

I am having what seems to be a unique problem. I can get to the webserver/nowplaying list, no problem. When I click download, I get a download that is .tivo. Problem is, it's only 4 kb in size. Since I can't open the .tivo file, I have no idea what it is. This happens with any program I try to download. The blue bar in the download manager always goes to completion, so it's not as if the download is timing out. The download is going to completion, it's just a really small file. I'm just trying to get a bunch of programs off my TiVo to free hd space. I'll worry about unscrambling them later.
In the Download manager, what file size is being shown (mega/gigabytes, or just a few bytes)?

If you look at the "4K" file in a text editor, it probably says something like:
<h2>Bad Request</h2>
recording id missing
I had that occur occasionally; try the download again later (maybe after adding or deleting some shows from Now Playing).

Also, if you are doing more than one transfer at once, you might get a file with:
<h2>Server Busy</h2>
download in progress

These messages don't display in the Safari window like one would expect, but . . .

Juan

[tonyf3]

In the Download manager, what file size is being shown (mega/gigabytes, or just a few bytes)?

If you look at the "4K" file in a text editor, it probably says something like:
<h2>Bad Request</h2>
recording id missing
I had that occur occasionally; try the download again later (maybe after adding or deleting some shows from Now Playing).

Also, if you are doing more than one transfer at once, you might get a file with:
<h2>Server Busy</h2>
download in progress

These messages don't display in the Safari window like one would expect, but . . .

Juan

Have you tried Firefox?

[tonyf3]

Still waiting TiVo Bill. Maybe Apple should buy TiVo and then stick it to the windows users. They could say we have absolutley no idea when we'll be rolling out support for a product update we announced a year ago. Sorry Bill Gates.

[tonyf3]

and yeah....we're not going quietly on this. Day 45!

[juanian]

Have you tried Firefox?Nope, I haven't installed Firefox.

tonyf3:
Do you know if the error messages display properly using Firefox?

drjlb:
What browser are you using? Are you using Firefox?

Juan

[jpd]

If Safari is saving the error messages as a text file rather than displaying them, that's an indication of a possible misconfiguration of the web server in the TiVo (it's not sending the error messages as the "text/html" MIME type). Firefox is actually more likely than Safari to honor the MIME type and save the file instead of displaying it, but it's still worth a try. Since TTG via web browser is not supported, it's not surprising that they haven't yet paid proper attention to the configuration.

Also try Internet Explorer. It's buggy enough to ignore the MIME type (or from another perspective, smart enough to realize that the "file" is really a web page).

[drjlb]

In the Download manager, what file size is being shown (mega/gigabytes, or just a few bytes)?

If you look at the "4K" file in a text editor, it probably says something like:
<h2>Bad Request</h2>
recording id missing
I had that occur occasionally; try the download again later (maybe after adding or deleting some shows from Now Playing).

Also, if you are doing more than one transfer at once, you might get a file with:
<h2>Server Busy</h2>
download in progress

These messages don't display in the Safari window like one would expect, but . . .

Juan


I haven't looked. I will. I've tried dowloading multiple times from 2 different TiVo's. I always get the same result.

[drjlb]

Nope, I haven't installed Firefox.

tonyf3:
Do you know if the error messages display properly using Firefox?

drjlb:
What browser are you using? Are you using Firefox?

Juan


I am using Safari. I have firefox installed, but it never occurred to me that there would be a difference between browsers. I'll check.

[SavMan]

What's the T+ count for days since release now, tonyf3?

This thread seems to be slipping due to the several other threads concerning the same problem, unfortunately. Seeing as this is the oldest and longest thread, we should try to keep it alive if at all possible. There is a new thread, something to the effect of "I Just Cost Tivo a Customer" that has some interesting discussion. Either way, though, we should keep this alive, guys.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

This thread seems to be slipping due to the several other threads concerning the same problem, unfortunately. Seeing as this is the oldest and longest thread, we should try to keep it alive if at all possible. There is a new thread, something to the effect of "I Just Cost Tivo a Customer" that has some interesting discussion. Either way, though, we should keep this alive, guys.

Personally, I don't see the value, beyond hopefully having "newbies" who show up with this issue posting in this thread rather than starting (another) new one. In all seriousness, we know we want Mac support, TiVo knows we want Mac support, they claim to be working on it, and the current version of the Mac TiVo Desktop provides evidence that they have indeed been working on adding things to their Mac version.

The other thread you refer to is discussing more issues than just Mac support.

I don't know that simply ticking off the days/weeks/months elapsed really serves any purpose, unless there really is something new to add to the discussion.

IMHO, of course.

[Unix_Beard]

I appreciate bumping the threads. It reminds me that Tivo has still not satisfied my needs in this area. I try and not do business with companies that treat Macs as second class citizens.

I'm personally giving them some time but I can't in good conscience keep giving Tivo my money if I'm getting short-shrifted. My cable company (not Comcast) just sent something to us about their new DVR service for both digital and HD service. So, if I'm not getting file access with Tivo, why bother anymore? And as someone pointed out, the Airport Express and Airtunes adequately fills my needs for audio.

[SavMan]

No avarice intended, Dennis, but since you just don't care that TiVo is cheating you, obviously you wouldn't care that the forum be bumped.

But my reasoning is such:

Newbies, yes. I want one, super-long thread that people immediately see when they log in. This shows everyone in the community, including people thinking about getting a TiVo, that this issue is not being dealt with. It also keeps us from having 25 small threads that say the same thing (re: Priority list, pixelation, codec problems, etc).

This thread IS important, too. We are a vital part of TiVo's user base, and most of us here aren't naive enough to trust an empty non-promise like "we are working hard on enabling playback...". This thread is about as vocal as we can get about the company short of performing a vigil on the TiVo campus' front lawn.

Also, I think that TivoBill's statements are important. Him telling us that there are no new developments and that he won't tell us anything until it is released (if it is released) is important.

Plus, I, tonyf3, Dennis Wilkinson, Unix_Beard, and many others have made great, important, and LONG posts in this thread that we care not to make again in another.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

No avarice intended, Dennis, but since you just don't care that TiVo is cheating you, obviously you wouldn't care that the forum be bumped.

Nice of you to try and put your spin on my comments -- I don't feel that TiVo is "cheating" me out of anything. That implies intent ("let's go screw over those annoying Mac users"), and I just don't see it. They say they are working on it, and my past experience as a customer of the company and progress that I see on related fronts tells me to give them the benefit of the doubt.

My comment is strictly about whether or not it's productive to continue to bump the thread without any new perspective on the issue -- I don't feel that it is. It's a little too "Dad, are we there yet? Dad, are we there yet?" to me, and I just can't see TiVoBill, TiVoPony, or anyone else popping up to respond every time the thread gets bumped, or a "is it ready this month?" thread is posted. I am certainly interested in the outcome, though, so I follow the threads, and I see the bumps as noise.

I'll concede that there is some small value is keeping the thread visible to deal with new posters, since so few of them tend to search for the answer before posting (some, unfortunately, not even long enough to scan a page or so of titles.)

All that said, I'm a big boy, and I can ignore noise with the best of them. If you feel the need to bump, have at it.

[SavMan]

Nice of you to try and put your spin on my commentsI did nothing of the sort. I think we are being cheated. You don't care. Ergo, you don't care that you are being cheated, according to me. According to you, you don't care that TiVo feels it important to keep release dates secret.
I don't feel that TiVo is "cheating" me out of anything. That implies intent ("let's go screw over those annoying Mac users"), and I just don't see it. They say they are working on it, and my past experience as a customer of the company and progress that I see on related fronts tells me to give them the benefit of the doubt.And that's why you are being naive. The intent is not to piss us off, and if after two months of discussions, that's what you think we've been arguing, than you are more close-minded than I thought. I think you are a very intelligent person and that you have many technical skills that I lack completely, however, and that's why I respect your posting and discussing this... so let's not use strawman arguments like that from now on, okay?

The intent, as I see it, is to keep us paying as long as possible. The way I see it, there is no conceivable reason that TiVo would not give us a rough timetable for release unless one of the two following conditions are true:

1. TivoToGo for Mac will never come out.
TiVo partnered with Microsoft to make TiVoToGo. I don't care how many times you try and pretend that that doesn't make it MS DRM, it does. You say that its possible to use a Quicktime wrapper, but you know that's at best a misrepresentation. You yourself talked about how if they were to use the filter in a Quicktime wrapper, it would have to be in a as-of-now unreleased and unannounced version of Quicktime. This is assuming the development team adds the specific technology needed, releases it soon, and that TiVo will then get those SDKs and make a version for us, none of which we have any reason to believe is actually happening.

2. TiVoToGo for Mac is so far off, most Mac customers would leave if they knew.
This is the more likely scenario. MS is very good at making backroom deals to shut out Macintosh users. They did it with Sierra (Half-Life), they did it with Bungie (Halo), and they very well may have done it with TiVo. Over a year ago, there was already a version of TTG for Mac that was working well enough to show at CES. It was shown side-by-side with the Windows PC. Now, 14 months after that version was already in existence, we have a PC version that requires proprietary Microsoft system resources to run, and nothing in sight for Macintosh. If all that is required for this to work on QT is to shove it in a QT Wrapper, it would be done by now... unless Microsoft paid them not to. Bill Gates stole the "digital lifestyle" naming that Apple came up with after the iPod, and he is very serious about making Windows the center of your digital lifestyle. That's why we have Media Center PCs, and I believe it's the reason why we have TiVoToGo only available on PC. If they thought they would get it out next month, they would tell us. Their lack of explanation or time table speaks for itself. We will not see TTG on our platform for a long time... and I hope TiVo gets spanked for it.

TiVo of yesteryear and TiVo of today are very different. Take a look at the board, take a look at the company, you'll see. And what do you consider this wonderful progress we've been seeing? All we got was v1.9, which supports the three people who actually use the photo slideshow, paid for iLife '05, and figured out how to use hierarchical photo albums. You also found AAC support, but TiVo has told us they have no plans on supporting AAC for real.
My comment is strictly about whether or not it's productive to continue to bump the thread without any new perspective on the issue -- I don't feel that it is. It's a little too "Dad, are we there yet? Dad, are we there yet?" to me, and I just can't see TiVoBill, TiVoPony, or anyone else popping up to respond every time the thread gets bumped, or a "is it ready this month?" thread is posted. I am certainly interested in the outcome, though, so I follow the threads, and I see the bumps as noise.This is our little way of protesting, Dennis. That's the point. TiVo thinks they can get away with keeping us in the dark so they can bleed as much money out of us as possible before we realize that there is no reason to wait anymore. If I had more time and patience, I'd call TiVo several times a day to demand a release timetable. I am, however, a full-time student with a job, so the most I can do is continue to keep this issue alive so that TiVo knows we aren't complacent, and that we won't be cheated. You can pretend that you aren't being cheated, Dennis, but it's true. You pay $13/month for half the service someone with a PC gets.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

I did nothing of the sort

I'd reread the first line of your post. The technique is occasionally called projection. Even if I did think I was being cheated, I'd still think that posting a "bump" message to a thread simply to keep it visible would be less than effective, but as I said, I can ignore "bump" messages.


TiVo partnered with Microsoft to make TiVoToGo. I don't care how many times you try and pretend that that doesn't make it MS DRM, it does. You say that its possible to use a Quicktime wrapper, but you know that's at best a misrepresentation. You yourself talked about how if they were to use the filter in a Quicktime wrapper, it would have to be in a as-of-now unreleased and unannounced version of Quicktime. This is assuming the development team adds the specific technology needed, releases it soon, and that TiVo will then get those SDKs and make a version for us, none of which we have any reason to believe is actually happening.

The problem with that is that you're factually incorrect. TiVo did not partner with Microsoft to make TiVoToGo. TiVo partnered with Microsoft to deliver TiVoToGo support on handhelds supporting Windows Media. So says the press release, (http://www.tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=233) in any case.

You are misunderstanding the techincal issue. TiVo's DRM is a TiVo-implemented algorithm. The fact that it's delivered as a DirectShow filter on Windows is quite literally a matter of glue code. It is not Microsoft's DRM: Microsoft has their own DRM schemes, and TiVoToGo doesn't use them. The task on the Mac can be accomplished entirely without MS's support, using glue that speaks QuickTime, but the core of the DRM remains entirely TiVo's. They could possibly do this in today's QuickTime, and it is possible that they require support in the version to be delivered with Tiger's QuickTime. I'm not certain one way or the other, as much of the "might be needed" stuff is related to further protecting the information once it stops being protected by TiVo's DRM, which is not an area of QuickTime I'm familiar with.

You've misapplied Occam's Razor (which a lot of people do) to say that because there is a partnership with Microsoft that therefore the "simpler" explanation, requiring fewer hypotheses, is that they have a back-room arrangement to prevent release on the Mac. Shady back-room dealings are a pretty big hypothesis, regardless of any of past behavior of Microsoft. One of your examples of Microsoft's "past misdeeds," Bungie, in any case, is quite a bit different than a back-room dealing: Microsoft bought the company.

What we know we have is a company that has supported the Mac well before, that is still actively developing for the Mac (1.9 may not have many user-visible changes, but it is quite a bit different than what came before, including the AAC "un"support), and that says they are working on Mac support for TTG playback but decline to state when it will be available for reasons they choose not to disclose. They've had some executive shuffling to be sure, but the impact of that isn't likely to be felt for a least a little while, especially as no one new has yet been brought in.

Lots of companies, Apple included, keep their release dates secret, at least so far as the general public is concerned. Apple has announced that Tiger is coming, as they tend to do with OS updates, with a rough timeframe. They didn't announce iLife '05 until it was pretty much off to duplication. Same with Keynote, and Pages, and most hardware products (and hardware, if anything, has less flex in the schedule than software.) I've been developing (mostly Mac) commercial software for close to 15 years now, and there are far more reasons to not announce a release date to the public, or even a release time frame, than those you propose. And yes, that includes a simple policy against announcing release dates, as well as having been burned in the past by announcing a date.

You can pretend that you aren't being cheated, Dennis, but it's true. You pay $13/month for half the service someone with a PC gets.

That, sir, is a load. I'm missing one feature, TiVoToGo, which represents very, very little of the functionality I desire from my TiVo. Besides, I paid for lifetime a very long time ago.

I'm a lot of things, but naive is not one of them. I realize that, at the end of the day, a my TiVo and my computers are tools. I bought them because they met my needs when I bought them. They still meet those needs now, and, happily, they now do other things I find useful. I never buy products for things that they do not already do, or on the promise of future features -- with consumer electronics especially, where it's often cheaper to replace than repair, that is a surefire way to gut burned. That's the main reason I have a Comcast DVR as well as my TiVo: I wanted a tool to record HD, and Comcast's solution was adequate. Will I switch to a CableCARD TiVo when and if one becomes available? If the TiVo software is still clearly better than what Comcast provides, yes.

You can feel cheated if you want, you can even feel cheated on my behalf if you care to, but I don't feel cheated. It's a matter of personal perception. Will I feel "cheated" if TTG for the Mac never materializes? No. I'll be disappointed, and it may or may not affect a future purchase, but as I said, my tools still do what I bought them to do.

I've said what I have to say on this issue, and fully expect that you'll continue to disagree with me, and that's just fine. I'm going to go back to trying to provide what information I can, since, frankly, that's both more useful and more enjoyable. I've never found the Mac v. anybody religious arguments all that much fun, or all that productive.

[Lon]

You are misunderstanding the techincal issue. TiVo's DRM is a TiVo-implemented algorithm. The fact that it's delivered as a DirectShow filter on Windows is quite literally a matter of glue code. It is not Microsoft's DRM: Microsoft has their own DRM schemes, and TiVoToGo doesn't use them.

Dennis, I may be missing something here. I seem to recall that there are methods for playback of .TiVo files under Windows that do not require installation of the TD software. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Dennis, I may be missing something here. I seem to recall that there are methods for playback of .TiVo files under Windows that do not require installation of the TD software. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

They require one component of TiVo's install, which is the DirectShow filter that decrypts the file and presents muxed MPEG to the rest of DirectShow, plus an entry in the registry containing the media key. The rest of the Desktop software is the server logic for serving up music & pictures, plus the logic to download .tivo files from the TiVo itself, none of which has anything to do with playback.

The first post in this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=224081) describes how this works and provides an installer for the Windows types in the audience.

[SavMan]

I'd reread the first line of your post. The technique is occasionally called projection. Even if I did think I was being cheated, I'd still think that posting a "bump" message to a thread simply to keep it visible would be less than effective, but as I said, I can ignore "bump" messages.If you can't or won't understand what I said, fine. I won't spend the rest of the day trying to explain a simple concept to you.
The problem with that is that you're factually incorrect. TiVo did not partner with Microsoft to make TiVoToGo. TiVo partnered with Microsoft to deliver TiVoToGo support on handhelds supporting Windows Media. So says the press release, (http://www.tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=233) in any case.

You are misunderstanding the techincal issue. TiVo's DRM is a TiVo-implemented algorithm. The fact that it's delivered as a DirectShow filter on Windows is quite literally a matter of glue code. It is not Microsoft's DRM: Microsoft has their own DRM schemes, and TiVoToGo doesn't use them. The task on the Mac can be accomplished entirely without MS's support, using glue that speaks QuickTime, but the core of the DRM remains entirely TiVo's. They could possibly do this in today's QuickTime, and it is possible that they require support in the version to be delivered with Tiger's QuickTime. I'm not certain one way or the other, as much of the "might be needed" stuff is related to further protecting the information once it stops being protected by TiVo's DRM, which is not an area of QuickTime I'm familiar with.This is what I'm talking about, Dennis. Don't be obtuse. TiVo used an entirely different DRM scheme until they had a partnership with MS. Last year it was a cross-platform program using a dongle. This year it's a MS-only product that uses an MS technology to decode using TiVo's DRM. They talk about how they partnered to make it possible to play TTG on a Windows PC AND MS Windows-based portables. They already had portables that only work through Windows Media Player at CES! I don't know how you can read that press release and REALLY think that it says TiVo didn't ever work with MS on TTG. Seriously, man.
You've misapplied Occam's Razor (which a lot of people do) to say that because there is a partnership with Microsoft that therefore the "simpler" explanation, requiring fewer hypotheses, is that they have a back-room arrangement to prevent release on the Mac. Shady back-room dealings are a pretty big hypothesis, regardless of any of past behavior of Microsoft.Please explain this to me. Microsoft has falsified COURT DOCUMENTS in federal cases, why wouldn't I believe that they paid TiVo to hold off on TTG for Mac? It's not illegal, it's just a crappy thing to do to its customers.
One of your examples of Microsoft's "past misdeeds," Bungie, in any case, is quite a bit different than a back-room dealing: Microsoft bought the company.
I may have misrelated this, true. I'm quite aware that Bungie sold out, but the fact was, MS used its vast stores of money to bribe a Mac-friendly company into holding off a Macintosh game for 2 years so it would run only on Microsoft's machine. The fact that they bought the company to do this is immaterial to the concept, but you are right, I didn't properly indicate that.
What we know we have is a company that has supported the Mac well before, that is still actively developing for the Mac (1.9 may not have many user-visible changes, but it is quite a bit different than what came before, including the AAC "un"support), and that says they are working on Mac support for TTG playback but decline to state when it will be available for reasons they choose not to disclose. They've had some executive shuffling to be sure, but the impact of that isn't likely to be felt for a least a little while, especially as no one new has yet been brought in.Unless you are indicating that no one is making decisions while the board has absent members, you should realize that this still shows a shift in the culture at TiVo. Regardless, v1.9 shows no progress toward TivoToGo, which is what we are talking about. You can try to redirect, but I'm not buying it. I don't care if tomorrow they announce that iTunes DRM'd songs will now play on HMO, we're still being held back from functionality we are paying for.
Lots of companies, Apple included, keep their release dates secret, at least so far as the general public is concerned. Apple has announced that Tiger is coming, as they tend to do with OS updates, with a rough timeframe. They didn't announce iLife '05 until it was pretty much off to duplication.They also didn't announce iLife '05 as a feature available until it was, in fact, AVAILABLE. If Apple had released iLife '05 for G5 only, then promised that they were working REAL HARD on getting a version for G4s, then you might have something. But I work for Apple, dude. When Apple announces an upcoming product they ALWAYS give a timeframe. Every OS upgrade, every bit of software. They either release it the day they announce it, or give a date (rough or not).
Same with Keynote, and Pages, and most hardware products (and hardware, if anything, has less flex in the schedule than software.)
Unannounced, and unannounced. No one had any actual announcement that such a program existed until it did. You don't seem to get this: TiVo ANNOUNCED that they were working on this program, yet couldn't tell us it would even be out this decade, much less year, quarter, or month. Unlike any of your examples, it's only in TiVo's advantage to keep people waiting as long as possible, even if they don't plan on ever releasing a new version. That is why I'm suspicious. Hardware products are obvious, and we've covered that in a previous thread.

I've been developing (mostly Mac) commercial software for close to 15 years now, and there are far more reasons to not announce a release date to the public, or even a release time frame, than those you propose. And yes, that includes a simple policy against announcing release dates, as well as having been burned in the past by announcing a date. You have YET to propose a situation that meshes with this, other than "getting burned." If you don't meet a date, you deal with it. But when you refuse to give even a rough timeframe, you show that you don't want any chance of accountability. TiVo promised us CableCard TiVos in first quarter 2006, they promised Sonic's software in the first two weeks of TTG, they promised TTG before the end of last year (missed by a week), and they promised us software v7.1 by a certain time. It's obviously not a TiVo policy to hold out on release dates on software they tell us they are working on.

That, sir, is a load. I'm missing one feature, TiVoToGo, which represents very, very little of the functionality I desire from my TiVo. Besides, I paid for lifetime a very long time ago.
Okay, but just because you don't care doesn't mean you aren't being cheated. If I don't desire an undercarriage coating on a car, but the dealer charges me for it anyway and skips getting it applied, I have still been cheated. It doesn't matter that the coating is one small feature, or that the coating isn't something I find valuable. I was still cheated. What I paid for was not delivered to me. You paid for lifetime, good for you. I wish I'd done that, I'm coming up on that amount spent on my first TiVo soon. Either way, you paid for the development. If they went to Series 3, I wouldn't bitch, but that is not the case.
You can feel cheated if you want, you can even feel cheated on my behalf if you care to, but I don't feel cheated. It's a matter of personal perception. Will I feel "cheated" if TTG for the Mac never materializes? No. I'll be disappointed, and it may or may not affect a future purchase, but as I said, my tools still do what I bought them to do.And that's great, more power to you. But you can't argue that I have no right to be angry. I HAVE been cheated. My money has been given to TiVo with the good faith agreement that it would partly pay for my service, and partly pay for development of new features. That's how this business works. It's not a hammer, it's a computer.
I've never found the Mac v. anybody religious arguments all that much fun, or all that productive.I don't think this is a "religious" issue. I bought a product with the understanding, promoted by TiVo, that I would be supported. I am not being supported. I am giving TiVo a piece of my mind, and encouraging others to do the same. You are telling us we are stupid for being upset. I don't understand why it has to be your job to sit here and mock us for perfectly legitimate gripes.

So if you don't care, DON'T POST. I appreciate your posts that are instructional, you discovered the AAC functionality, and I will give you all the credit in the world for that. But it's incredibly annoying to be chided for airing grievances in a thread that was set up precisely for that reason.

[SavMan]

Damn that was long. I'm tired and cranky now. Dennis, I hope we are walking away from this exchange with respect for one another. Your passions do not lie along the same paths as mine, but I have always been a firm believer in good business practices. I feel TiVo is performing a disservice to a large part of their users, and I want to give them an opportunity to right their wrongs. You believe my anger to be foolhardy, and it might be true. I hope I'm wrong. But I truly think that this is the beginning of the end for TiVo and Mac support. Regardless of our disagreements, I still respect you for having the same studiousness I do for an argument with a stranger on an anonymous web board. Bravo, sir.

[Lon]

They require one component of TiVo's install, which is the DirectShow filter that decrypts the file and presents muxed MPEG to the rest of DirectShow, plus an entry in the registry containing the media key. The rest of the Desktop software is the server logic for serving up music & pictures, plus the logic to download .tivo files from the TiVo itself, none of which has anything to do with playback.

The first post in this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=224081) describes how this works and provides an installer for the Windows types in the audience.

Thank you for the link. However, there have been other solutions (some not allowed to be discussed on this forum anymore - hence I am not able to link to them or where they've moved to) that do not utilize the TiVo dll.

While I am waiting for the official mac solution, I have been spending way too much time with Linux+wine+misc in attempts to find a non-MS solution. Perhaps I need a hobby ;)

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Thank you for the link. However, there have been other solutions (some not allowed to be discussed on this forum anymore - hence I am not able to link to them or where they've moved to) that do not utilize the TiVo dll.

None of the, er, evil solutions that I've heard of eliminate the TiVo DLL.

While I am waiting for the official mac solution, I have been spending way too much time with Linux+wine+misc in attempts to find a non-MS solution. Perhaps I need a hobby ;)

Sounds to me like you found one... ;)

[Dennis Wilkinson]

This is what I'm talking about, Dennis. Don't be obtuse. TiVo used an entirely different DRM scheme until they had a partnership with MS. Last year it was a cross-platform program using a dongle. This year it's a MS-only product that uses an MS technology to decode using TiVo's DRM. They talk about how they partnered to make it possible to play TTG on a Windows PC AND MS Windows-based portables. They already had portables that only work through Windows Media Player at CES! I don't know how you can read that press release and REALLY think that it says TiVo didn't ever work with MS on TTG. Seriously, man.

I'll respond to this point, since you're still not understanding the technology.

The work required to integrate DRM-on-a-dongle is identical, on both the Mac and the PC, to the DRM scheme they actually shipped. The only difference is that in the dongle case, the MAK would be stored on the dongle rather than on the host, along with some or all of the logic to decrypt (and I'd bet not much of that, given the bandwidth constraints of USB 1.1.) You'd still have to write the same "glue", meaning a DirectShow filter on the PC, and some set of QuickTime components on the Mac. You'd also have the additional burden of writing device drivers for the dongle.

As to demoing TTG on Windows Media-capable handhelds -- the media SDKs as I remember them are virtually identical between host and handheld. Prepping the demo was most likely a simple recompile for the handheld's CPU architecture and possibly some minor packaging work, and I'd be very surprised if it look longer than a few days to get to demo-able condition.

As to everything else, it's obvious neither of us finds the others argument convincing, so we agree to disagree.

Just out of curiosity, what do you do at Apple? I've known quite a few people over there over the years.

[jpd]

Actually I think TiVo Desktop 1.9 does show significant progress towards supporting TTG. It's support of AAC demonstrates that the software can now communicate with other pieces of software installed on the Mac, an essential piece of how .tivo files get decrypted. 1.9 passes the AAC files to SoundConverter and LAME which converts them, they are passed back to 1.9 and then sent to the TiVo. 1.8 can't do that. .tivo files would be passed around in the opposite direction (from the media player to the TiVo Desktop decoding tool, back to the media player) but the concept is the same.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the end the media player turns out not be QuickTime at all. VLC is a possibility, would likely work using the same mechanism as LAME, and we already have an indication that it was meant to be supported on Windows 2000, but something wasn't quite right - maybe the same issue that is keeping 2.0 on the Mac from being released? This is just idle speculation. Quicktime would definitely be better from the user's standpoint, but it's not the only way to go.

[SavMan]

I'll respond to this point, since you're still not understanding the technology.

The work required to integrate DRM-on-a-dongle is identical, on both the Mac and the PC, to the DRM scheme they actually shipped. The only difference is that in the dongle case, the MAK would be stored on the dongle rather than on the host, along with some or all of the logic to decrypt (and I'd bet not much of that, given the bandwidth constraints of USB 1.1.) You'd still have to write the same "glue", meaning a DirectShow filter on the PC, and some set of QuickTime components on the Mac. You'd also have the additional burden of writing device drivers for the dongle.
You keep telling us this, but if that's true, then T2G for mac has been finished and operable for over a year. If it's the same, why are they supposedly working on "enabling playback" so hard? It doesn't make sense, Dennis. If TiVo doesn't have a version out now, the only reasonable explanation is that it is either impossible, or so hard that they can't figure it out yet. But you keep telling everybody that it's no problem, despite admitting you know nothing about the Quicktime internals. I just think you are taking for granted that they changed nothing in a year between CES shows... you don't know anything about the dongle, other than it existed, yet you are 100% sure it's nothing more than a .dll that ran through DirectShow. If you have more information, tell it to us, because all we have now is conjecture costumed as irrefutable fact.
As to demoing TTG on Windows Media-capable handhelds -- the media SDKs as I remember them are virtually identical between host and handheld. Prepping the demo was most likely a simple recompile for the handheld's CPU architecture and possibly some minor packaging work, and I'd be very surprised if it look longer than a few days to get to demo-able condition.
And this is supposed to refute my point? They have a partnership. They didn't sign the partnership at CES, they announced it there. You take so many things for granted here to make your point, but pretend that they are obvious and true. All i'm saying is, one year ago it was running and working for thousands of people watching at CES. Then this CES, they announce it for WMP only with no Mac compatibility in sight (in fact, they admit they can't even get it to play back now) and announce that they've had a partnership with Microsoft to get it to MS "portables." You attest that this indicates no communication or planning or help between TiVo and MS, I say the opposite. Microsoft doesn't want T2G to work on Macs, that's unarguable. If BG can keep something from being cross-platform, he will... it's only good business sense. So I think that might have a lot to do with why TiVo doesn't even have the cojones to give us a quarter estimate of when it will be done.
Just out of curiosity, what do you do at Apple? I've known quite a few people over there over the years.FOR Apple, not at Apple. I'm an Apple Campus Representative. I work for Apple Education Sales with an Account Executive to arrange promotional events, provide a campus face for Apple, help with the campus MUG, etc. Great job.

[mattman]

Microsoft doesn't want T2G to work on Macs, that's unarguable. If BG can keep something from being cross-platform, he will... it's only good business sense.

SavMan-

There is no question that you and I disagree on this matter, and I'm certainly willing to accept that, as you seem to be as well, but I do have to question that it's "unargualbe" that MS doesn't want TTG to work on Macs. It may be likely, or even something we can infer from MS's past tactics, but in lack of firm evidence, such as a direct memo or e-mail between TiVo and MS, it's certainly not "unarguable". I do not believe TiVo would enter in to such an agreement, while you obviously do, that I can accept, but I wouldn't call it a slam dunk without actual proof, of which I have seen none.

Matt

[Dennis Wilkinson]

You keep telling us this, but if that's true, then T2G for mac has been finished and operable for over a year. If it's the same, why are they supposedly working on "enabling playback" so hard? It doesn't make sense, Dennis. If TiVo doesn't have a version out now, the only reasonable explanation is that it is either impossible, or so hard that they can't figure it out yet. But you keep telling everybody that it's no problem, despite admitting you know nothing about the Quicktime internals. I just think you are taking for granted that they changed nothing in a year between CES shows... you don't know anything about the dongle, other than it existed, yet you are 100% sure it's nothing more than a .dll that ran through DirectShow. If you have more information, tell it to us, because all we have now is conjecture costumed as irrefutable fact.

By your yardstick of demoable==ready, then all of TiVoToGo was ready at CES 2004 and should have been shipped. It wasn't. I know quite a lot about QuickTime internals, having been writing QuickTime components for the better part of the last eight years, and have had quite a bit of exposure to DirectShow in the course of that work as well, mostly from a competitive technical analysis standpoint. What I don't know intimately are things related to maintaining "priviledges" on data post-decryption in QuickTime, as I haven't had any call to use them.

There are only so many ways to implement these things without coding your own complete player from the ground up. Other people familiar with the technical issues would come to similar conclusions.

You're also making the assumption that what was demoed at CES actually included the copy protection scheme. They demoed playback, which could be a lot of things.

There was a lot of discussion about the dongle when it was announced. Have a look here (the thread, not just this post):

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1665298&highlight=TiVoPony#post1665298

The crypto chip has also been discussed, if you go back far enough in the archive. This doesn't guarantee, but strongly implies, that the crypto chip was doing some or all of the decryption. It is also certain that it was not doing decompression of the MPEG, especially if it needed to be 1.1 compatible, because of bandwidth limits. This means you need to have something on the host to decompress, and what they implemented on Windows (a DirectShow filter) for decompress and play is the logical solution for that platform, just as the QuickTime implementation I described is a logical solution for Mac OS X.

And this is supposed to refute my point?

No, it's a clarification. You were implying that because there were handhelds to demo TTG on at CES this year that that showed things had been in the works for a while. My point is that the effort in making this demo-able on a Windows Media-capable handheld is small, and really doesn't require involvement from Microsoft. They could have easily come to the partnership agreement a week before CES and still shown it.

[drjlb]

In the Download manager, what file size is being shown (mega/gigabytes, or just a few bytes)?

If you look at the "4K" file in a text editor, it probably says something like:
<h2>Bad Request</h2>
recording id missing
I had that occur occasionally; try the download again later (maybe after adding or deleting some shows from Now Playing).

Also, if you are doing more than one transfer at once, you might get a file with:
<h2>Server Busy</h2>
download in progress

These messages don't display in the Safari window like one would expect, but . . .

Juan


In Safari, I get

<h2>Bad Request</h2>
session id missing


If I use Firefox, I get complete downloads (2.75G/1 hr). I guess I'll just use Firefox from here on out.

[SavMan]

SavMan-

There is no question that you and I disagree on this matter, and I'm certainly willing to accept that, as you seem to be as well, but I do have to question that it's "unargualbe" that MS doesn't want TTG to work on Macs. It may be likely, or even something we can infer from MS's past tactics, but in lack of firm evidence, such as a direct memo or e-mail between TiVo and MS, it's certainly not "unarguable". I do not believe TiVo would enter in to such an agreement, while you obviously do, that I can accept, but I wouldn't call it a slam dunk without actual proof, of which I have seen none.
No. It is inarguable that MS doesn't want T2G to work on Mac. Absolutely inarguable. MS wants NO competition, that's the modus operandi of their corporation. Given their druthers, they would prefer that no other platform exist, much less be compatible with T2G.

What is quite easy to argue about, and what you mistakenly thought I asserted as fact, is whether or not part of the deal Bill Gates actually made with TiVo was that they held off on T2G for Mac. I have no evidence other than circumstances that that is true.

TiVo wouldn't have done such a deal in the past, but since they have been having financial problems, corporate shake-ups, etc and have let the "me-toos" from the Cable companies catch up with them, I find it quite probable that part of their "partnership" is a sole-distributorship deal with Microsoft. It's not illegal, and it's an extremely common practice, so there's no real reason other than not being a dick to their customers for TiVo to not accept it. So until TiVo actually tells us they are going to release T2G Mac someday instead of telling us they are working on it and not even promising a release or giving us a timetable, I see no reason to believe TiVo's PR department. There is no conceivable reason for TiVo to not give us a date if this port is anywhere on the horizon.

[Unix_Beard]

I believe Apple told us at last year's WWDC that Tiger would ship in the 2nd quarter of 05. They projected over a year in advance. And I bet they deliver too.

Tivo is not Apple. But then again TTG is now OS X either. My only conclusions are 1.) TTG for Mac will never materialize, 2.) TTG is waiting for Media Player 10 (which may never materialize), or 3.)Tivo needs Tiger to get whatever they need done. Although new versions of iDVD and iMovie as well as Quicktime have already shipped. (Did a new version of Quicktime come out recently or is that part of Tiger? I recall a demo of something at Macworld in Jan...)

My point is that it does not seem like a monumental task. However, I have no idea of the size of the staff Tivo employs to work on these things. When is enough enough? I can deal with a few months. Do you get concerned after 6 months? 1 year?

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Did a new version of Quicktime come out recently or is that part of Tiger? I recall a demo of something at Macworld in Jan...

QuickTime 7.0 will supposedly ship with Tiger. No idea if it will also ship for Panther or Jaguar -- some Apple updates do, some don't, but QuickTime in the past has always been one of the more backwards-compatible items. Apple's site only discusses it in the context of Tiger.

I'd expect a Windows release sometime in the same time frame, based on past history.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/quicktime.html

[tonyf3]

No avarice intended, Dennis, but since you just don't care that TiVo is cheating you, obviously you wouldn't care that the forum be bumped.

But my reasoning is such:

Newbies, yes. I want one, super-long thread that people immediately see when they log in. This shows everyone in the community, including people thinking about getting a TiVo, that this issue is not being dealt with. It also keeps us from having 25 small threads that say the same thing (re: Priority list, pixelation, codec problems, etc).

This thread IS important, too. We are a vital part of TiVo's user base, and most of us here aren't naive enough to trust an empty non-promise like "we are working hard on enabling playback...". This thread is about as vocal as we can get about the company short of performing a vigil on the TiVo campus' front lawn.

Also, I think that TivoBill's statements are important. Him telling us that there are no new developments and that he won't tell us anything until it is released (if it is released) is important.

Plus, I, tonyf3, Dennis Wilkinson, Unix_Beard, and many others have made great, important, and LONG posts in this thread that we care not to make again in another.

Thanks SavMan, well said. Yes indeed, I've been bumping Mac related threads to the top.
We need to stay visable, vocal, and frankly as in their face as we can get on these and other important Mac related issues. and yes the newbies and others will be drawn into this huge thread. Trying to keep TiVo honest and on their toes about what they've promised, and what we're paying for.

[mattman]

No. It is inarguable that MS doesn't want T2G to work on Mac. Absolutely inarguable. MS wants NO competition, that's the modus operandi of their corporation. Given their druthers, they would prefer that no other platform exist, much less be compatible with T2G.

What is quite easy to argue about, and what you mistakenly thought I asserted as fact, is whether or not part of the deal Bill Gates actually made with TiVo was that they held off on T2G for Mac. I have no evidence other than circumstances that that is true.

TiVo wouldn't have done such a deal in the past, but since they have been having financial problems, corporate shake-ups, etc and have let the "me-toos" from the Cable companies catch up with them, I find it quite probable that part of their "partnership" is a sole-distributorship deal with Microsoft. It's not illegal, and it's an extremely common practice, so there's no real reason other than not being a dick to their customers for TiVo to not accept it. So until TiVo actually tells us they are going to release T2G Mac someday instead of telling us they are working on it and not even promising a release or giving us a timetable, I see no reason to believe TiVo's PR department. There is no conceivable reason for TiVo to not give us a date if this port is anywhere on the horizon.

I'll give you that I was mistaken about your assertion, it certainly wouldn't be the first time I'd read something into someone else's words. ;)

I also won't argue for too long about what is an arguable point. :D So I'll concede by saying that I agree that MS certainly is less than enthusiastic about Apple getting further foothold in the consumer electronics and home entertainment markets, as Apple has grown exponentially in at least mindshare in those areas in the past few years.

I just don't see any black helicopters in the lack of a release date, or even the lack of a formal commitment to release the product at all. I can understand your reasons for seeing the backroom deals, and I guess I'll leave it at that.

The bottom line for all of us is that we would like to have TiVoToGo usable on our Macs, and that is something I can get behind, it's just not as big a deal for me personally.

Matt

[tonyf3]

I'm wondering what kind of back room deals are going on between Apple & Sony. aka Steve Jobs & Nobuyuki Idei (Sony CEO). Nobuyuki Idei was on stage at Macworld with Jobs.

[mattman]

There is probably *some* cooperation, *but* Sony just had an announcement a few days ago about their next version of the "iPod Killer", so I would imagine that at least the music side of Sony is not eager to do much business with Apple. Too many rivalries.

Matt

[jpd]

In Safari, I get

<h2>Bad Request</h2>
session id missing


The session ID might be stored in a cookie, so the trouble transferring files could be related to disabling cookies.

[jgpsound]

..bump

[juanian]

Let's get real here and start yelling at the real villains -- entities like the MPAA that restrict how we can view and handle content. If it weren't for them, we (and companies like TiVo) wouldn't have to jump through hoops to deal with things like DRM (or worry about being sued or shut down).

No, wait, forget what I just said -- the real villains are the people who pirate video content and sell it illegally -- yea, these are the real villains. If these people didn't exist, then the studios wouldn't be as tight-*ssed about controlling their content. Yea, let's blame the pirates!

But wait -- if people didn't buy or steal content, then the pirates wouldn't have anybody to make a profit from, and the studios would still receive the $$$ they want, so yea, look around -- the REAL villains AREN'T TiVo, Microsoft, Apple, Sony, or Paramount! :eek:

Me? Hey, I want to be able to view TiVo-recorded shows on my Mac while the TV is 'held hostage' playing (legally purchased) video games on a (legal, un-modded) PlayStation 2. I believe (and I probably have no authority on which to base that belief) that the big hold-up of TTG on a Mac is TiVo trying to kiss-up as much as possible to the 'content providers' to not be sued or shut down. Is TiVo waiting on Apple OS support (in the form of a future QuickTime release)? If it was, TiVo certainly wouldn't say so, because there would be a (small but feisty) band of people screaming at Apple to hurry up and get it released, which would p*ss off Apple, and sour any relationship Apple may have with TiVo. Is TiVo trying to write their own (having given up on trying to work within Apple's clearly proprietary encryption scheme)? I dunno!

Truth or fiction -- you decide!

Both dousing and prodding . . .
Juan

Edit - Also, I'd be happy that I don't have to purchase a ~$25 dongle per computer that I want to view content on.

[tonyf3]

Let's get real here and start yelling at the real villains -- entities like the MPAA that restrict how we can view and handle content. If it weren't for them, we (and companies like TiVo) wouldn't have to jump through hoops to deal with things like DRM (or worry about being sued or shut down).

No, wait, forget what I just said -- the real villains are the people who pirate video content and sell it illegally -- yea, these are the real villains. If these people didn't exist, then the studios wouldn't be as tight-*ssed about controlling their content. Yea, let's blame the pirates!

But wait -- if people didn't buy or steal content, then the pirates wouldn't have anybody to make a profit from, and the studios would still receive the $$$ they want, so yea, look around -- the REAL villains AREN'T TiVo, Microsoft, Apple, Sony, or Paramount! :eek:

Me? Hey, I want to be able to view TiVo-recorded shows on my Mac while the TV is 'held hostage' playing (legally purchased) video games on a (legal, un-modded) PlayStation 2. I believe (and I probably have no authority on which to base that belief) that the big hold-up of TTG on a Mac is TiVo trying to kiss-up as much as possible to the 'content providers' to not be sued or shut down. Is TiVo waiting on Apple OS support (in the form of a future QuickTime release)? If it was, TiVo certainly wouldn't say so, because there would be a (small but feisty) band of people screaming at Apple to hurry up and get it released, which would p*ss off Apple, and sour any relationship Apple may have with TiVo. Is TiVo trying to write their own (having given up on trying to work within Apple's clearly proprietary encryption scheme)? I dunno!

Truth or fiction -- you decide!

Both dousing and prodding . . .
Juan

Edit - Also, I'd be happy that I don't have to purchase a ~$25 dongle per computer that I want to view content on.


Thanks Juan.
I'm going with Truth.

[ig88]

TiVo Desktop for Mac v1.9.1 (420kb) Updated February 18, 2005. This update contains: a revised preferences mechanism, support for photo album heirarchies, a new plug-in API, and minor bug fixes.
Music & Photos only

Still no T2G of course...

[thehand]

this version doesn't work for me. How do get the previous version?

[thehand]

what would happen if I connected the other usb of the DVR to my mac?

[Dennis Wilkinson]

what would happen if I connected the other usb of the DVR to my mac?

USB doesn't work that way. The TiVo and the Mac would both want to be "in charge."

[tonyf3]

http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/587/mike_ramsay_denies

Interesting article. and as an added bonus the upcoming speaking engagements of the TiVo movers & shakers.Wonder what they'll have to say at NAB in April.

http://www.tivo.com/5.3.6.asp

[thehand]

so how do I get the previous version (1.8) or is there something stupid a dumbass like me is doing to cause the tivo desktop making not my stuff in to the god damn DVR.

Why haven't you guys tried TyStudio?

[rog]

I'm wondering what kind of back room deals are going on between Apple & Sony. aka Steve Jobs & Nobuyuki Idei (Sony CEO). Nobuyuki Idei was on stage at Macworld with Jobs.

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20050120.html

[Lon]

and this: "NEW YORK, Feb 23 (Reuters) - TiVo Inc. (TIVO.O: Quote, Profile, Research) shares jumped more than 17 percent on Wednesday, fueled by speculation that Apple Computer Inc. (AAPL.O: Quote, Profile, Research) might make a try to buy the digital video recorder maker, analysts said." http://reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh60398_2005-02-23_20-25-41_n23627852_newsml

[AnteL0pe]

and this: "NEW YORK, Feb 23 (Reuters) - TiVo Inc. (TIVO.O: Quote, Profile, Research) shares jumped more than 17 percent on Wednesday, fueled by speculation that Apple Computer Inc. (AAPL.O: Quote, Profile, Research) might make a try to buy the digital video recorder maker, analysts said." http://reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh60398_2005-02-23_20-25-41_n23627852_newsml
:eek: Doubt it will happen, but I like the possibility. Of course apple has been burned in the set top box arena before, and the Mac TV model wasnt a huge success either. Who knows.....

[ZeoTiVo]

You have YET to propose a situation that meshes with this, other than "getting burned." If you don't meet a date, you deal with it. But when you refuse to give even a rough timeframe, you show that you don't want any chance of accountability. TiVo promised us CableCard TiVos in first quarter 2006, they promised Sonic's software in the first two weeks of TTG, they promised TTG before the end of last year (missed by a week), and they promised us software v7.1 by a certain time. It's obviously not a TiVo policy to hold out on release dates on software they tell us they are working on.
seems more like TiVo announces dates they are reasonably sure of. On other boards posters who were at CES , talked to some apple engineers who knew Apple was helping TiVo with TTG( the board is live journal - TiVo lovers , no idea of the post itself anymore) so you have COMPLETELY speculated that TiVo is not working on TTG for Mac with nothing to back it up but the fact that MicroSoft is involved with TTG. Does not sound like a concrete argument to me and has the tinge of bias to it. TiVo history and the release of version 1.9 seems a lot more concrete to me.


And that's great, more power to you. But you can't argue that I have no right to be angry. I HAVE been cheated. My money has been given to TiVo with the good faith agreement that it would partly pay for my service, and partly pay for development of new features.
and Dennis nor anyone else never argued against your right to be angry. It was simply that bumping the thread to say that yet again only helps you and the occiasional newbie. As stated above, I think Tivo is actively spending your money and mine on Mac support adn until you have real proof to the contrary you are being angry based solely on speculation.

[SavMan]

seems more like TiVo announces dates they are reasonably sure of. On other boards posters who were at CES , talked to some apple engineers who knew Apple was helping TiVo with TTG( the board is live journal - TiVo lovers , no idea of the post itself anymore) so you have COMPLETELY speculated that TiVo is not working on TTG for Mac with nothing to back it up but the fact that MicroSoft is involved with TTG.
No, the fact that TiVo is not "reasonably sure" they can get this program out the door this year, next year, etc is evidence enough. And yes, MS being involved in a partnership makes is more likely than not that there is a hold being placed on the release of this program. MS probably stipulated this so they could get all their WMP-enabled devices out the door and on the market first.

And please PLEASE tell me again that here-say from an anonymous user on the internet is concrete evidence, it's simply hilarious. Really.
Does not sound like a concrete argument to me and has the tinge of bias to it. TiVo history and the release of version 1.9 seems a lot more concrete to me.
Of what bias are you speaking, sir? Do you contest that I am in fact, a ReplayTV fan? That I've been paying money to TiVo for two years as a "sleeper," waiting for the right time to EXPLODE... on a message board?
and Dennis nor anyone else never argued against your right to be angry. It was simply that bumping the thread to say that yet again only helps you and the occiasional newbie.
Can you READ!?!? Dennis has been telling us from the beginning that we have no right to be angry, along with several other posters! Zeo, you are smarter than this, I have appreciated your insightful posts in the past, but that's simply the stupidest post I've read in days, and I read Fark.

From day one we've been told we have no right to be angry because only 3% of people use Macs (patently false in several ways), because they told us they are working on it, because we didn't buy TiVo for the express purpose of using T2G, because "who cares," because T2G isn't that great anyway, because it's useless to everyone because it's not HD... the list goes on.
As stated above, I think Tivo is actively spending your money and mine on Mac support adn until you have real proof to the contrary you are being angry based solely on speculation.
You are not angry based solely on speculation. So really, what sort of high ground does your opinion come from? Gee golly whiz, if I could have some sort of proof that TiVo has any plans of coming out with T2G in the next century, I would shut up... but that's the rub now, isn't it? TiVo won't even promise that there WILL be a Mac version. They made sure their carefully worded statement left that hole wide open. The day I get a release timetable is they day I stop speculating.

[ZeoTiVo]

I thank you for your help although it would have been nicer had it not been delivered with an insult to the Mac users.

Do you PC people realize that you owe much to Apple and the Mac people in terms of pushing the envelope on creativity and innovation? If Microsoft was out there alone without Apple, you would not have many of the new OS features that you enjoy now. But this is not news to you, right?

I have just downloaded WMP 10 but I get the same unauthorized access message after I enter the password. I have decided to transfer the Tivo recording again with the Tivo Desktop and then to play it with WMP 10.

It works!!! ...well sort of.. the picture does skip occasionally and the lips are not in sync (WMP is not QuickTime) with the audio but this is way better than nothing.

Now back to the Mac to replicate the process.

sorry just got around to reading your reply - my statement "Guess you mac users never had t oread the instructions" was meant as a complimnet to the quality of mac software. In all my past years of support of Macs in a network environment I never had to use the manual as it was clear in the software how to make it do what was needed since I knew what was needed. Also the whole Microsoft productivity suite was first written for Apple and Apple remains a huge customer of Microsoft software. And yes thank God Microsoft has the competition from Apple - few companies have been able to do that and it is sorely needed.

again, I may be sarcastic but do not ever think Apple does not have my respect for what it has done in the industry - it does have my respect.

[ZeoTiVo]

No, the fact that TiVo is not "reasonably sure" they can get this program out the door this year, next year, etc is evidence enough. And yes, MS being involved in a partnership makes is more likely than not that there is a hold being placed on the release of this program. MS probably stipulated this so they could get all their WMP-enabled devices out the door and on the market first.

it is this persistent posting of some TiVo evil agreement with MS that pulled me in. You are angry that TTG did not come with Mac support. That is your right, but you need to take a step back and look at some of the accusations you are posting as fact when neither of us has any real proof on the matter.


And please PLEASE tell me again that here-say from an anonymous user on the internet is concrete evidence, it's simply hilarious. Really.
I can not go into names as I do not wish to drag someone else into this and I doubt he reads these threads anyway. There is more behind it, I think Apple is working with TiVo and that TiVo is beholden to Apple time frame. Typically when Tivo is beholden to a third party (Sonic and the DVD burning software for example) TiVo says very little about time frames. the pattern matches to the Mac TTG desktop. Sorry I can not give more to back these statements up.

Of what bias are you speaking, sir? Do you contest that I am in fact, a ReplayTV fan? That I've been paying money to TiVo for two years as a "sleeper," waiting for the right time to EXPLODE... on a message board?
no nothing like a sleeper conspiracy - I do not know you well but your posts and invective in them are coming off as being very biased toward Mac as good and Microsoft as evil. I do not hold position on this so I am not saying this to try and argue either position - just noting that you are sounding like that and it effects your credibility

Can you READ!?!? Dennis has been telling us from the beginning that we have no right to be angry, along with several other posters! Zeo, you are smarter than this, I have appreciated your insightful posts in the past, but that's simply the stupidest post I've read in days, and I read Fark.
maybe so - I have not read every post. my point is only though that Dennis was more about you not posting the same angry stuff over and over to no avail - but I will not speak for Dennis any more on that. I think you have a right to be angry but only in lack of mac support - I think you are just trying to make it unbearable for TiVo here and make them say something by arguing any theory you can come up that they do not want to hear. It has little effect on TiVo but for peoiple reading it without a 2 year background in TiVo it will make them come to wrong conclusions - that is what I think dennis was trying to get you off doing.

From day one we've been told we have no right to be angry because only 3% of people use Macs (patently false in several ways), because they told us they are working on it, because we didn't buy TiVo for the express purpose of using T2G, because "who cares," because T2G isn't that great anyway, because it's useless to everyone because it's not HD... the list goes on.
yep those are all wrong headed notions except tha tTiVo is working on it and I think it is partly out of their hands and in Apples hands - what is TiVo to do about that ? Also I think 20% of users are Mac users may be wrong as well.

You are not angry based solely on speculation. So really, what sort of high ground does your opinion come from? Gee golly whiz, if I could have some sort of proof that TiVo has any plans of coming out with T2G in the next century, I would shut up... but that's the rub now, isn't it? TiVo won't even promise that there WILL be a Mac version. They made sure their carefully worded statement left that hole wide open. The day I get a release timetable is they day I stop speculating.

no high ground and you can post your opinion all you want, just stop posting pure speculation and guesses as fact and stop posting evil conspiracies as even speculation unless you have something that backs it up more than just because they are saying nothing

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Can you READ!?!? Dennis has been telling us from the beginning that we have no right to be angry, along with several other posters!

I suggest you go back and read yourself. I have not said that you have no right to be angry. I haven't even implied it. Of course you have that right. All I've said is that I disagree with your appraisal of the situation, that I don't think that simply bumping threads really helps get the issue addressed, and I've stated the reasons why I believe that to be the case in the hope of providing some balance to the discussion. That's it.

You obviously still disagree with me, and again, that's fine. But don't tell me that I'm somehow denying you have the right to feel however you feel.

[tchwojko]

I certainly hope that if and when we get Mac support, it's better than the Windows version. I have one Windows laptop running 2000. I gave TivoToGo a try there.

I installed Tivo Desktop, no problem, I could find everything fine.

I installed the recommended codecs for Windows 2000, installation seems to go fine.

Then I try to actually play something back, and I get an incomplete (47 minutes of the supposed hour in the first case, 19 minutes of 60 in the second) squashed (480x480) playback. Unofficial support on these boards talk about getting random third party tools to do some of the messing around with codecs and registry keys, though I don't have any desire to install even more possibly spyware-laden tools to do experiment to find exactly the right combination of things that'll work.

It's not worth my time to mess around with it.

[Unix_Beard]

I certainly hope that if and when we get Mac support, it's better than the Windows version. I have one Windows laptop running 2000. I gave TivoToGo a try there.

I installed Tivo Desktop, no problem, I could find everything fine.

I installed the recommended codecs for Windows 2000, installation seems to go fine.

Then I try to actually play something back, and I get an incomplete (47 minutes of the supposed hour in the first case, 19 minutes of 60 in the second) squashed (480x480) playback. Unofficial support on these boards talk about getting random third party tools to do some of the messing around with codecs and registry keys, though I don't have any desire to install even more possibly spyware-laden tools to do experiment to find exactly the right combination of things that'll work.

It's not worth my time to mess around with it.

Amen. I don't have time to be bothered fooling with codecs.

Apparently, the Tivo Desktop for Windows wasn't up to the Mac version. For one, it didn't run as a daemon and it didn't support iTunes the way the Mac version does.

And thank you for mentioning the word "registry." It brings back all the memories of why I left Windows behind.

[tonyf3]

and still we wait....day 56. I wonder if Mr. Ramsey's Mac is being used much with TiVo togo. He's probably got beta software.

[tonyf3]

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20050120.html


I buy it, makes sense to me.

[cwoody222]

and still we wait....day 56. I wonder if Mr. Ramsey's Mac is being used much with TiVo togo. He's probably got beta software.

This just makes me sad :(

For years I've had a networked ReplayTV 5040 model. I've never been able to get Internet Video Sharing or streaming from my DVArchive to work. But I've never really tried since I never had a need to use them.

Today I spent no more than a half hour figuring it out. It was easy. I never just really put any thought into it before.

So today I used a great website (not one for you to POOP on, not even LIghtly) and I'm downloading an hour show to my TV. It's slow but not unbearable (about 10 hours for 1hour at standard).

I also downloaded a 30min show to my Mac. Took just a hair over 30 mins. It played instantly on my Mac on mPlayer.

I deleted that show from my ReplayTV and was still able to play streamed thru my Mac. And now that my Replay sees my Mac as another Replay (although it's really not) it prompts me with the option (which won't work, I know, since it's really just my Mac) to schedule recordings remotely.

I also never realized DVArchive has a built in webserver so I can manipulate my Replay from this PC or from any other on my network.

Sure, ReplayTV has plenty of shortcomings, it's company is in much worse shape. I'm not telling people to go out and buy Replay's instead of TiVo's. I still love my TiVo. A lot.

But it really makes me sad to use a free 3rd party software (DVArchive) and ReplayTV's software that hasn't had even minor updates in probably 2 years to be able to download shows from users on the Internet, play shows on my Mac, stream shows back to my Replay, and control my Replay from my computer if I choose.

Sadly the ONLY part of that TiVo can even remotely do now is playing shows on computers - and my computer (an iMac) has no support :(

[tonyf3]

This just makes me sad :(

For years I've had a networked ReplayTV 5040 model. I've never been able to get Internet Video Sharing or streaming from my DVArchive to work. But I've never really tried since I never had a need to use them.

Today I spent no more than a half hour figuring it out. It was easy. I never just really put any thought into it before.

So today I used a great website (not one for you to POOP on, not even LIghtly) and I'm downloading an hour show to my TV. It's slow but not unbearable (about 10 hours for 1hour at standard).

I also downloaded a 30min show to my Mac. Took just a hair over 30 mins. It played instantly on my Mac on mPlayer.

I deleted that show from my ReplayTV and was still able to play streamed thru my Mac. And now that my Replay sees my Mac as another Replay (although it's really not) it prompts me with the option (which won't work, I know, since it's really just my Mac) to schedule recordings remotely.

I also never realized DVArchive has a built in webserver so I can manipulate my Replay from this PC or from any other on my network.

Sure, ReplayTV has plenty of shortcomings, it's company is in much worse shape. I'm not telling people to go out and buy Replay's instead of TiVo's. I still love my TiVo. A lot.

But it really makes me sad to use a free 3rd party software (DVArchive) and ReplayTV's software that hasn't had even minor updates in probably 2 years to be able to download shows from users on the Internet, play shows on my Mac, stream shows back to my Replay, and control my Replay from my computer if I choose.

Sadly the ONLY part of that TiVo can even remotely do now is playing shows on computers - and my computer (an iMac) has no support :(

cwoody,
This makes me sad as well.That's the kind of functionality we're beging for..(and paying for) You're right, they could do it if they wanted to. I guess they don't.
Jobs should just buy them already.

[cwoody222]

And an FYI: my 1 hour IVS show took almost 12 hours exactly to download. Not bad for my first try and from a complete stranger. It was a 1600mb file.

I actually watched the file complete downloading. The instant it was done I could play it.

Very cool.

If I had a friend w/ a compatible Replay (just like I have a ton of friends with TiVo) I'd use this feature ALL THE TIME.

I really hope TiVo opens up ToGo for their 9-household sharing thing.

[ZeoTiVo]

This just makes me sad :(

For years I've had a networked ReplayTV 5040 model. I've never been able to get Internet Video Sharing or streaming from my DVArchive to work. But I've never really tried since I never had a need to use them.

Today I spent no more than a half hour figuring it out. It was easy. I never just really put any thought into it before.

snip

But it really makes me sad to use a free 3rd party software (DVArchive) and ReplayTV's software that hasn't had even minor updates in probably 2 years to be able to download shows from users on the Internet, play shows on my Mac, stream shows back to my Replay, and control my Replay from my computer if I choose.

Sadly the ONLY part of that TiVo can even remotely do now is playing shows on computers - and my computer (an iMac) has no support :(

but you said it yourself - DVArchive is a 3rd party app so Replay is immune from legal hassles and those developers can just code away and not deal with support or legal issues either. There are 3rd party apps for the TiVo to do some if not all of the same - I have no idea on the downlaod from the internet part so this does exist for the TiVo, just not as nicely packaged.

If TiVo ever put out an authorized way to pull shows from internet file sharing sites the lobby would be full to the ceiling with lawyers the next day. TiVoToGo has a lot more polish needed, needs a Mac desktop Now and so forth for sure, but I do not follow how you exepect TiVo to put out something like DVArchive and stay in business. It sucks and it takes a lot more resources to keep the ahole content providers off their backs but I wouldrather see TiVo still in business and at least working on productive things at this slow pace - then be fighting copyright battles and not getting anything done.

[cwoody222]

I'm not necessarily asking TiVo to put out an authorized way to pull shows from Internet file sharing sites. And - for the record - that's not what ReplayTV does. Replay lets you send and receive shows from other ReplayTV units in or outside of your LAN.

Actually TiVo has said they want to do this I think (this was the NFL's gripe) but they've said they plan to limit shows to being sent to 9 other users. And I'm sure they'll make it so you need to have a 'buddy list' of sorts. ReplayTV actually does that too, there's just sites that help you make 'buddies' with other people ;)

But there's no reason why I can't reasonably expect TiVo to let me do other things I can currently do with my ReplayTV. Like:

1) control my unit via a program or web interface from PCs or Macs within my LAN
2) store shows on my PC or Mac and stream them back to TiVo's on my LAN
3) play shows I download from TiVo on my Mac

[AnteL0pe]

I certainly hope that if and when we get Mac support, it's better than the Windows version. I have one Windows laptop running 2000. I gave TivoToGo a try there.

I installed Tivo Desktop, no problem, I could find everything fine.

I installed the recommended codecs for Windows 2000, installation seems to go fine.

Then I try to actually play something back, and I get an incomplete (47 minutes of the supposed hour in the first case, 19 minutes of 60 in the second) squashed (480x480) playback. Unofficial support on these boards talk about getting random third party tools to do some of the messing around with codecs and registry keys, though I don't have any desire to install even more possibly spyware-laden tools to do experiment to find exactly the right combination of things that'll work.

It's not worth my time to mess around with it.
Exactly, while I have playback on a PC laptop, i'm no where near DVD production. Hell, even playback is messed up (480x480) and messing with codecs, etc. trying to get DVD production working messed up simple playback!

Honestly, I'm waiting for my elegant Mac solution. Import the file to my Mac, pop it open in iMovie, edit the thing and export to iDVD. If we get that, all will be forgiven.

[ZeoTiVo]

Honestly, I'm waiting for my elegant Mac solution. Import the file to my Mac, pop it open in iMovie, edit the thing and export to iDVD. If we get that, all will be forgiven.
and it is this elegant solution that may be why it is taking so long to get Apple DRM glue code working as Apple would like it to.

[iDriveX]

Still no news on the horizon? We're moving into our third month here...

[Lon]

..to continue with the sub-thread of alternative Mac solutions... EvolutionTV (similar to Elgato's EyeTV) http://www.miglia.com/products/video/evolutiontv/index.html looks like it integrates nicely with iMovie.

[SavMan]

and it is this elegant solution that may be why it is taking so long to get Apple DRM glue code working as Apple would like it to.

In which case, they know when Apple's new software is coming out (Q2 this year) so they should be able to promise it to us by year's end, since they would have gotten the developer's copies long ago.

[doobs]

I am sooo bummed not to be able to use TiVo togo on my Mac. I've switched myself (and three other users( from PC to Mac, and damn it I'm not going back.

I've always thought of TiVo as an advanced enough application of technology to really be on the higher technical level that I've found the Mac to be on. I'm not a software engineer, but just from a pure user perspective I've been able to do much more on my Mac than I could get done on the PC. Heck , it would "crash" and require a lengthy re-boot so often that I couldn't be productive. or desirous of doing more on that Windows PC thang.
-- but that's just my emotional Windows sucks speel that I've developed since I've become a Mac fan.

I'm just really bummed because I excitedly started my TiVo togo prep in January, and just got the new required TiVo O/S release. I thought that was the last step after I had gotten my TiVo to be on my wireless network. Hell, I didn't need to spend that money, I could have just let the TiVo continue to dial up.

I guess I feel really misled by TiVo. I've paid my TiVo memberships, bought the TiVo boxes, run phone lines (and now paid to make them wireless in anticipation of TiVo togo). This no TiVo to go on Mac is just a lousy business practice!! I've always felt that TiVo was there for its customers. Guess I'm naive.

[kb7rjf]

All I want is the ability to archive my shows from the Tivo onto a DVD, for viewing on a computer, dvd player, toaster, whatever. All I *DO NOT* want is to have to go out and buy a Windows machine to do this. Is Tivo gonna send me a cheque for a Windows box to let the tivo2go work? I think not. The irony of the whole DRM thing, as we all know is I can use the 'output to vcr' option, and feed a DVD recorder directly.

WHY is a Linux client too much to ask?? Source would be nice, but I can live with a Tivo-Provided binary. Heck, a plug-in for Xine would be enough. I don't even *REALLY* need support (other than Mac-OSX of course) for my non-Intel boxes.

I guess I go buy a video capture card for the Powerbook.

[kb7rjf]

Of course, the truest irony is that the Tivo has a ppc inside. The SAME processor used in the Mac.
One would think that the Mac version should have been FIRST! :+)

[amgqmp1]

Not saying you should have to do this...and it's not cheap...but, how many Mac users don't/can't use Virtual PC? I've always thought Apple should bundle that on new systems...here's another prime example of why.

Self-appointed elitism aside...don't ya'll just wanna get shows off yer TiVo? Aren't there quite a few other circumstances that come up where it would be great if there was just *one* program for the Mac OS that did what you want...when there's two dozen for Windows? ;)

[amgqmp1]

Of course, the truest irony is that the Tivo has a ppc inside. The SAME processor used in the Mac.
One would think that the Mac version should have been FIRST! :+)

The S2 DirecTiVos ditched PPC chips in favor of cheaper/faster MIPS chips. Aren't the stand-alone's the same?

[kb7rjf]

Probably right, they probably are using MIPS. Thus, I should be getting Tivo2Go for my MIPS R-10000 based SGI (irix) box first? :+) :+)

Virtual PC. UGH. All the cost, and none of the throughput. Better off sacrificing one of my Intel Linux boxes to the Devil, er M$. Somewhere above Unix_Beard observed the dismal performance of VPC, and others have noted that they get bad to non-existant playback on TTG/VPC. FWIW, I got a 800MB (30 min) show to tranfer to the powerbook. It took 16 hours. I use a 100MB ethernet. A video capture box would take 30 min, and cost about what VPC and a copy of XP would cost.

Anyone try WINE?

[AnteL0pe]

Anyone try WINE?
I was thinking of giving that a go, on either a mac or linux box i have at home, sometime this weekend. Honestly though, I have a windows box, and it hasnt been easy to get that one to produce a usable disk. I finally got it down so that I can do SVCDs and I can, in theory, now produce an mpeg that i should be able to use to create a DVD, but its all such a hassle. I'll just keep storing .tivo files on my mac until I can actually do something with them.....

[tchwojko]

when there's two dozen for Windows...

I'll stick with my Mac with one program that works, rather than Windows' 24 that don't quite.

Except for the spyware, viruses and worms. Those all seem to run just fine. :)

[amgqmp1]

I'll stick with my Mac with one program that works, rather than Windows' 24 that don't quite.

Except for the spyware, viruses and worms. Those all seem to run just fine. :)

I guess I have low standards? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I think it would behove TiVo to make a formal announcement for their Mac version...unless the news is truly that bad...perhaps they haven't decided when/what it will be yet? Sounds crazy...but very probably true...I mean, what do they care if they tick off 0.6% of their customers?

[Unix_Beard]

I guess I have low standards? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I think it would behove TiVo to make a formal announcement for their Mac version...unless the news is truly that bad...perhaps they haven't decided when/what it will be yet? Sounds crazy...but very probably true...I mean, what do they care if they tick off 0.6% of their customers?

First, there are very few if any programs/utilities that "don't exist" on the Mac while there are a dozen on Windows. If there is a need for a package, it exists for the most part.

Second, Mac users are an unusually high number of Tivo customers. Your .6% is really about 15% of all Tivo customers are Mac users. Hard to believe, eh? Its documented in some article floating around. I suppose the story is that Mac users are more apt to embrace new and advanced technology than the Windows users that bump into each other in the aisles of Best Buy.

[SullyND]

First, there are very few if any programs/utilities that "don't exist" on the Mac while there are a dozen on Windows. If there is a need for a package, it exists for the most part.

AutoCAD.

[kb7rjf]

I would agree. The appeal of the MAC has always been superiority in the media and graphics areas. The PC has, until fairly recently been on top in the bang/buck race, but the new series of Mac, coupled with the release of OS-X eliminated that barrier. When I purchased my Powerbook, I had a set of platform independent requirements- size, weight, cd/dvd burner, and the like. After much shopping, the choice came down to the G4 Powerbook, and the Sony Vaio. There was a $1.00 difference in cost. By giving Apple the $1.00 extra, i got a DVD burner. I also got the most stable, easy to use machine I have seen in a long time. OS-X lets me use all my favorite applications, and It is usually pretty easy to move new ones as needed. My old laptop, was a pc, running Linux, and Windows when I really *HAD* to. Graphics tools for the Mac have always been superior to those for the PC/Windows. Mac processors have always been more powerful, the only issue has been cost.

My next big machine very well may be a Mac. (Or an IBM pSeries powerserver, but, that's just a Mac on steroids...)

[kb7rjf]

I'm *SURE* that there are non-PC cad programs that are as good as or better than AutoCAD out there. Downside is, they may be more expensive. I agree AutoCAD is a good package. It may be the only truly usefull Windows App out there. :)

(I know, that's not fair. There are a *lot* of usefull windows things, but they appeal to a very small minority of Windows users. For every person running a datalogger or ICE development utility, there are 1000 folk playing games)

[mahermusic]

Aren't there quite a few other circumstances that come up where it would be great if there was just *one* program for the Mac OS that did what you want...when there's two dozen for Windows? ;)

Not one. Period.

Every program that I need is out in Mac OS X (with a better version, might i add), including my music notation software that I use constantly.

TiVo To Go is the only program that I can't utilize yet.

Purchase, Install, and Run Virtual PC on a Mac ONLY for TiVo To Go???

Uh, No.

If I did that... I would be running Windoze on my Mac.

...someone's been bumping into too many people in Best Buy again...

[Unix_Beard]

Trust me. You don't want to go the VPC route. Look at all the threads on faulty codecs and a myriad of other problems. Then imagine that on a machine that is unbearably slow. Add to that its a flawed program on a slow machine running Windows XP. :D

And AFAIK, I haven't heard of anyone actually burning a DVD with VPC and T2G.

[juanian]

I have been working with trying to use VPC (XP Home) on a PB 15" 1.5GHz G4 with TivoToGo, and it has been a rough ride. Although I am using an older version of VPC (5), I don't know if the newest version runs better.

I can run TiVo Desktop fine, and I can download shows. (I don't recall if this was much slower than downloading using the TiVo web interface or not; I'm saddled with a '140, so I only have USB 1.1 speed.) Playback performance just isn't enough to view shows. The playback is just too slow and jerky. Maybe it is the codec I am using (dscaler5), but I've pretty much given up on playback using WMP 10 with VPC.

Also, something that is a part of the TiVo Desktop installation seems to also restrict where the file being played is located. I had downloaded the file using the Web interface on the mac, and I shared the folder that I had put the shows on (to avoid having to transfer the file to a VPC drive). When I try and play it, I get the message "The network resource type is not correct" (since VPC shares Mac folders by making them look like a network drive). Plus, sharing folders with VPC has always caused problems for me (since VPC 2) with odd errors reading and/or writing reliabily. (I regularly have XP crash and restart when copying large files to one of these shared folders from a Windows command prompt -- I must use the drag-and-drop method to move big files out of Windows.)

Maybe a better codec will help, maybe VPC 7 will help. I haven't seen any other tales of 'succcess' using VPC for viewing shows. As far as burning DVDs with VPC, I expect that you will have to wait days for the transcoding of the shows, and who knows if VPC can perform USB transfers fast enough to reliably burn a DVD to an external drive.

Disappointed that I don't have TiVoToGo? You bet -- when I go out of town and want to bring shows with me, I have to transfer them to my wife's PC so we can watch them (on a smaller-then-15" screen). :(

Juan
(not the 'other' Juan)

[cwoody222]

I wouldn't hold your breath for playback via VPC regardless of the version or the speed of your Mac. VPC just doesn't have the horsepower for that. :(

[tchwojko]

Are we there yet?

[AnteL0pe]

AutoCAD.
He did say "for the most part" and lets be honest, no one uses AutoCAD....

Not one. Period.

Every program that I need is out in Mac OS X (with a better version, might i add), including my music notation software that I use constantly.
One area the Mac is really lacking in is full featured media burning. Toast is crap compared to Nero...

[SullyND]

He did say "for the most part" and lets be honest, no one uses AutoCAD....

No one uses AutoCAD? What world are you living in? AutoDesk has more than 6 million users, the vast majority of them working on some form of AutoCAD based system (Architectural Desktop, Land Desktop, Mechanical, etc, etc.). Odds are that if you are in a building that was built/renovated within the last 10 years it was, at some point, drawn in AutoCAD. But I digress. My response was limited solely to the "if any" comment... Come on! That's just ludicrous.

"First, there are very few if any programs/utilities that "don't exist" on the Mac"

[AnteL0pe]

No one uses AutoCAD? What world are you living in? AutoDesk has more than 6 million users, the vast majority of them working on some form of AutoCAD based system (Architectural Desktop, Land Desktop, Mechanical, etc, etc.). Odds are that if you are in a building that was built/renovated within the last 10 years it was, at some point, drawn in AutoCAD.
Exactly my point, no one uses it......





P.S. I was joking ;)

[thehand]

to play your graphedit .mpg files on your mac, djoPlayer http://tc.versiontracker.com/product/redir/lid/527749/djoPlayer.zip a GUI for mplayer works a lot better than VLC player

[SullyND]

P.S. I was joking ;)

Well you would probably have been right with no one wants to use it. :D

There are actually several superior products (Some of which started on the Mac) but AutoCAD is the Microsoft of the drafting world.

P.S. I like Macs... Now recommend Macs for home use... Just think there are some uses that are better handled by PCs.

[TheSlyBear]

One area the Mac is really lacking in is full featured media burning.

Are you serious? Have you checked out DVD Studio Pro?

[AnteL0pe]

Are you serious? Have you checked out DVD Studio Pro?
Yes i have, and i noticed its $500 price tag... :rolleyes:

[TheSlyBear]

No one said anything about price... the discussion regarded availabilty. You think AutoCAD is free? And for the flexibility of DVDSP, $500 is a bargain.

For less features, but suitably powerful for most hobbyists, iDVD does a great job for a ridiculously small price; free in fact with a new machine.

The "there's no software available for the Mac" urban legend is worthy of a MythBusters episode.

[jfunkk99]

Virtual PC? Are you serious? You'd be lucky to play a .tivo file let alone convert it to something else. Anyways, I think the reason for the no Mac support is that Winblows already had a DRM solution available. I mean cmon, this is Microsoft, of course they have a way of controlling content. Apple on the other hand is a little more hesitant to adopt those practices (yes I know, the music store) and hence we have to deal with the fact that we are no longer the valued customers in this business. The TV studios, RIAA, MPAA, etc are. Until we as consumers refuse to pay for content that forces us to jump through hoops to use it the way we want then we are forever doomed to this outcome.

[AnteL0pe]

No one said anything about price... the discussion regarded availabilty.
Im talking about software comparable to Nero on the PC, theres nothing like that on the Mac, Toast is pathetic. $500 media burning software isnt what I was referring to.

The "there's no software available for the Mac" urban legend is worthy of a MythBusters episode.
I never said there was no software for the Mac, Im just saying that there are still areas where Mac software is really lacking. The fact that PC users can get Nero for $100 (or much cheaper depending on rebates) and do far more than a Mac user with Toast (for the same exact price) is a problem.

[Unix_Beard]

Whats the problem with Toast? Works good for me.

And for DVDs, why wouldn't I just use iDVD and iMovie? Why would I want my CD burning software to be a one-stop video shop?

[AnteL0pe]

Whats the problem with Toast? Works good for me.
What it does it does reasonably well, but once you start using something like Nero you see where Toast should be. I'm just saying, for the same price Toast is way behind Nero

And for DVDs, why wouldn't I just use iDVD and iMovie? Why would I want my CD burning software to be a one-stop video shop?
Those apps are great for the hobbyist, but when you want a little more control you will find that they (especially iDVD) arent that flexible. Theyre designed for the home user, I want just a little more than that, Nero has it and Toast doesnt.

[tonyf3]

Are we there yet?

Unfortunately....No. Doesn't look like it.
It's been over 2 months now. They haven't got a clue.
Or rather,...I'm sure they do... they just won't tell us.

[Unix_Beard]

Well, I'm still holding out hope that Tiger is the holdup. If Tiger comes and goes without TTG for Mac, I'll be worried.

It does bug me that Tivo says TTG support for Humax DVD units is "COMING SOON!!" but they can't say the same for Macs. I mean, why would that have priority. The machine (Humax) IS a DVD burner. Shouldn't the Mac users be given priority here?

And I still don't understand why they can't give a brief description of what the challenge is. Perhaps if they let the community know the challenge/problem then suggestions can be made?

[thehand]

new versions of ffmpegx and MpegStreamclip are just out for the mac. they are very much improved! it seems they might be watching this forum.

[Unix_Beard]

new versions of ffmpegx and MpegStreamclip are just out for the mac. they are very much improved! it seems they might be watching this forum.

What do they do for Mac users who lack TTG?

[thehand]

What do they do for Mac users who lack TTG?

unfortunately I have to turn on the PC for that part but just for a couple minutes.

[ComputerTech]

Well that's how TiVo views Mac and personally I don't blame them. Why would TiVo spend R&D dollars to devlope compatibality with a platform which has almost no market share in the home consumor market. It doesn't make business sinse and that's why they haven't done it.

You Mac people just need to set your sights on bigger and better things, I am sure Dell has some good sales going on. Check them out, you will be happier.

I hope Mac people don't take this personally....

[SafariKC]

Actually it's NOT how TiVo views Mac users.

Quite honestly you should Troll in another forum.

[TheSlyBear]

You Mac people just need to set your sights on bigger and better things, I am sure Dell has some good sales going on. Check them out, you will be happier.


Are you freakin' serious?

[audioscience]

You Mac people just need to set your sights on bigger and better things, I am sure Dell has some good sales going on. Check them out, you will be happier.

I hope Mac people don't take this personally....

That's the best thing I've read all month!

Honestly though, if you own a mac how can you expect to have software for it? Haven't you noticed yet how it takes 3 to 6 months for most software titles to come out on Mac after they have been released for Windows? You don't have a software title called "Virtual PC" because Mac's are rolling in the options.

I understand most reasons for owning a Mac, but software availability sure isn't one of them...

[westside_guy]

You Mac people just need to set your sights on bigger and better things, I am sure Dell has some good sales going on. Check them out, you will be happier.

Except for the fact that some of us Mac users fled the Windows world some time ago...

Funny you mention Dell. Before I bought this Powerbook (my first Mac), I had an Inspiron 3800. Keyboard failed three times - third time it was out of warranty, but fortunately Dell settled a class action lawsuit which allowed me to get it replaced at no cost. The main board failed once (fortunately in warranty). USB port failed (out of warranty). DVD combo drive stopped being recognized by the computer (out of warranty).

Basically my Dell was a piece of crap.

I was a DOS and then a Windows programmer from about 1988 until 2000. Finally gave up and tried desktop Linux. Lot of good there, some of it is really painful though. Decided to try OS X, and finally found a great OS. Basically it's like desktop Linux without the pain. :D

Edit: fixed date typo

[Unix_Beard]

That's the best thing I've read all month!

Honestly though, if you own a mac how can you expect to have software for it? Haven't you noticed yet how it takes 3 to 6 months for most software titles to come out on Mac after they have been released for Windows? You don't have a software title called "Virtual PC" because Mac's are rolling in the options.

I understand most reasons for owning a Mac, but software availability sure isn't one of them...

Really? Funny stuff. You mean I need to wait 3-6 months for Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Filemaker, Word, Excel, and every other major app out there? You are wrong on all counts since there are many options and we don't have to wait 3-6 months for anything but games and Tivo software.

[Unix_Beard]

Basically it's like desktop Linux without the pain. :D


Exactly. MacOS X allows me to do my work without a Windows box or Linux box. Thats a good thing.

[thehand]

what if the mac never was and we just had DOS

[AnteL0pe]

Well that's how TiVo views Mac and personally I don't blame them. Why would TiVo spend R&D dollars to devlope compatibality with a platform which has almost no market share in the home consumor market.
Actually Macs make up a substantial share of the market of desktop machines, and an even larger portion of TiVo owners.

It doesn't make business sinse and that's why they haven't done it.
Up until now, TiVo has had simultaneous releases, it makes good "business sinse" [sic] to keep 15%-20% of your installed base happy, and thats what they should do.

You Mac people just need to set your sights on bigger and better things,
Thats why we're mac users, we already have :D

I am sure Dell has some good sales going on. Check them out, you will be happier.
You can put bird droppings on sale too, i wont buy that either. Happier? Wahahahahahahahahha.....

[Sethb]

Frankly, I find all the anti-Mac arguments to be missing the point. Even if TiVo decides it's not worth their time/money to make a Mac client, that's a legitimate argument to have, but they won't even share that much. Even if you think that Mac users are stupid, you have to admit that TiVo isn't communicating well with its customers in this case.

TiVo won't even yield a Yes/No on whether or not a Mac version is under development. Period. Doesn't that seem like a reasonable question to answer, regardless of what the answer is?

I provide IT services for a living, if someone came to me at work, and asked me a question about when or if I had a service available, and I just stared at them blankly (which is what TiVo is doing to us on this issue) I'd be summarily fired, and with just cause.

Even if the answer is No, we still deserve an answer.

Had I know that TiVo wasn't going to make TTG support available to Macs, I'd have gotten a Humax DVD-R burner unit, rather than my 140 hour Series 2.

[wtb]

My opinion (for what it's worth) is that TiVo is having problems maintaining the security of the video on Macs and don't know yet how they are going to solve that problem.

My 2 cents.

[cwoody222]

TiVo won't even yield a Yes/No on whether or not a Mac version is under development. Period. Doesn't that seem like a reasonable question to answer, regardless of what the answer is?




Actually, supposedly, it's a "Yes". Whether we all believe that or not is another story. But they SAY they're working on it.


Is the TiVoToGo feature available for Apple Macintosh computer?

The TiVoToGo feature will initially be available for Windows PCs only. TiVo is working hard to make the TiVoToGo feature available on TiVo Desktop for Mac in the future but no release date is available at this time.

[timg]

Actually, supposedly, it's a "Yes". Whether we all believe that or not is another story. But they SAY they're working on it.


Is the TiVoToGo feature available for Apple Macintosh computer?

The TiVoToGo feature will initially be available for Windows PCs only. TiVo is working hard to make the TiVoToGo feature available on TiVo Desktop for Mac in the future but no release date is available at this time.

Unfortunately, that statement is still quite a bit short of an actual committment to deliver a Mac client for TivoToGo. It's been more than a year since Tivo demoed the TivoToGo service and over 2 months since they released the Windows client. If they still can't commit to a schedule for the Mac client, I have to wonder if they ever will.

[donsullivan]

Does anyone remember the delay between the release of HMO for Windows and HMO for Mac? I called tonight to cancel the service on my S2 box, with the reason being no TTG for Mac, and no committment to actually deliver it.

One thing I was told as part of the effort to keep me active was that this same delay occurred when HMO was released. To be honest I didn't have a Series 2 SA box that could have used it then so I'm not clear on what that timeline was.

[cwoody222]

There was no delay. They came out simultaneously.

And most TiVo users agree that the Mac version is better.

[thehand]

what I want to know is:

is TIVO better than Replay TV

[cwoody222]

I perfer the TiVo interface and TiVo's much more reliable to catch all your shows and to know what's going to record and when. And WishLists are awesome.

However, using ReplayTV with DVArchive (even on Macs) and if you can get an old model with Internet Video Sharing and Commercial Advance, well then, that's just icing on the cake.

It depends on what you want your DVR to do.

[tonyf3]

Frankly, I find all the anti-Mac arguments to be missing the point. Even if TiVo decides it's not worth their time/money to make a Mac client, that's a legitimate argument to have, but they won't even share that much. Even if you think that Mac users are stupid, you have to admit that TiVo isn't communicating well with its customers in this case.

TiVo won't even yield a Yes/No on whether or not a Mac version is under development. Period. Doesn't that seem like a reasonable question to answer, regardless of what the answer is?

I provide IT services for a living, if someone came to me at work, and asked me a question about when or if I had a service available, and I just stared at them blankly (which is what TiVo is doing to us on this issue) I'd be summarily fired, and with just cause.

Even if the answer is No, we still deserve an answer.


Had I know that TiVo wasn't going to make TTG support available to Macs, I'd have gotten a Humax DVD-R burner unit, rather than my 140 hour Series 2.



Well said Seth.
As stated in some earlier posts, I hope the delay has something to do with the upcoming Tiger release. Or if not,.. that Apple has their own PVR up their sleeve.
Or some type of licensing deal like the Comcast deal announced yesterday.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/15/tech/main680282.shtml

[tonyf3]

I think something like this, is what we're waiting for.

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000670031981/

[tonyf3]

Memo to Steve Jobs: Buy TiVo!

from Cnet

http://news.com.com/Commentary+Memo+to+Steve+Jobs--buy+TiVo/2030-1069_3-5594278.html

[Unix_Beard]

From an article (http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/0,17863,1037957,00.html?cnn=yes) on Business 2.0:

"...I think these companies are focusing too much on the numbers and missing the more promising opportunity. Why? Because rolling out a product for the Mac platform ensures a certain buzz and élan, which begets more buzz, which begets sales. Let me explain. According to Apple, there are about 12 million active Mac users. Not a lot, that's for sure. But among them are most of the influencers -- high-profile bloggers, most (if not all) technology journalists, and, of course, the hipsters.

Look at Delicious Monster (www.delicious-monster.com), which makes software that manages everything in your digital library -- as long as it's on a Mac. The software became a smash hit primarily because it is Mac only.

Being part of this so-called cult of Mac, I know I'll try out pretty much any Mac-related product or software. Precisely because of our small numbers, Mac users are willing early adopters. A Mac product, if done right, can easily attract half a million users within a few weeks without the developer spending any marketing dollars."

Wise words.

[MacinTiVo]

Hey, has anybody tried Mplayer? There is a pre-compiled version out on versiontracker. There is an open location option, and I'll bet you could paste the URL for a program from your TiVo web interface.

There is also a tivo-mplayer that shows a feature like the now playing list.

tivo-mplayer.sourceforge.net

I got it to compile. by following the Mac OS X instructions. I don't have a network interface for my TiVo yet though. Can any of you give this a shot, and report your findings? I just may have to go out and buy a USB wireless adapter for my TiVos

[Lon]

Hey, has anybody tried Mplayer? There is a pre-compiled version out on versiontracker. There is an open location option, and I'll bet you could paste the URL for a program from your TiVo web interface.

There is also a tivo-mplayer that shows a feature like the now playing list.

tivo-mplayer.sourceforge.net

I got it to compile. by following the Mac OS X instructions. I don't have a network interface for my TiVo yet though. Can any of you give this a shot, and report your findings? I just may have to go out and buy a USB wireless adapter for my TiVos
I am afraid that there is nothing in that project will allow you to fetch/stream or watch TiVoToGo .tivo files (files downloaded with TiVo Desktop or with TiVo's web interface). It uses it's own streaming server (requiring a hacked TiVo) to get around the unmentionable encryption issues.

[tonyf3]

Mac software development schedule says ???????
How long till a Mac beta of TiVo togo 2.0 is released ??????
No idea?? Tiger got your tongue??
Pitiful.

[thehand]

now why don't they make a Mac hack for type .tivo files. the mplayer mentioned is intended for the older .ty files as is TyStudio.

Tivo2Go files are .tivo files

[falconbrad]

Well said Seth.
As stated in some earlier posts, I hope the delay has something to do with the upcoming Tiger release. Or if not,.. that Apple has their own PVR up their sleeve.
Or some type of licensing deal like the Comcast deal announced yesterday.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/15/tech/main680282.shtml


I worry that this means that they will devote all of their time to developing software for this new platform... If they have any intention of releasing Mac software, and I'm not sure they do, then it will probably be sidelined in favor of the Comcast stuff... I hope something better comes out... honestly. The thing that keeps me with a Tivo is the fact that it operates better than anything else that's out there. But make no mistake, if something better presents itself, I won't hesitate to drop Tivo and go with the better deal (as well as convince others to do the same).

[ehlers]

MPEG2 Works Advanced - 4.0.1 on versiontracker for mac osx


>>Export2QT [- MPEG1/MPEG2/VRO/ReplayTV/TiVo/VOB/Hitachi VOB and VRO files to ANY QuickTime codec You have installed] [NEW!]

[Lon]

MPEG2 Works Advanced - 4.0.1 on versiontracker for mac osx


>>Export2QT [- MPEG1/MPEG2/VRO/ReplayTV/TiVo/VOB/Hitachi VOB and VRO files to ANY QuickTime codec You have installed] [NEW!]

This does not work for TTG (or TiVo web access) .tivo files. caveat emptor

[tonyf3]

From an article (http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/0,17863,1037957,00.html?cnn=yes) on Business 2.0:

"...I think these companies are focusing too much on the numbers and missing the more promising opportunity. Why? Because rolling out a product for the Mac platform ensures a certain buzz and élan, which begets more buzz, which begets sales. Let me explain. According to Apple, there are about 12 million active Mac users. Not a lot, that's for sure. But among them are most of the influencers -- high-profile bloggers, most (if not all) technology journalists, and, of course, the hipsters.

Look at Delicious Monster (www.delicious-monster.com), which makes software that manages everything in your digital library -- as long as it's on a Mac. The software became a smash hit primarily because it is Mac only.

Being part of this so-called cult of Mac, I know I'll try out pretty much any Mac-related product or software. Precisely because of our small numbers, Mac users are willing early adopters. A Mac product, if done right, can easily attract half a million users within a few weeks without the developer spending any marketing dollars."

Wise words.

Wise words indeed.
I wonder what Mike Ramsay thinks about this.

[tonyf3]

3 Months....and nothing. Amazing. TiVo togo on Mac is pipe dream,.. and it appears on windows a pain and not worth the effort. Thanks TiVo,.. what a letdown.

[audioscience]

and it appears on windows a pain and not worth the effort.

TivoToGo works just fine for me on Windows XP. I've really had no problems other than getting a good codec when I initially set it up. My transfer rates with a 540 series 2 are in the 6Mb range. No complaints here.

You Mac guys should just forget about TTG for now and come back in a month or two to see if it is around. Hopefully that will save you a lot of grief from checking up on it everyday. Just forget about it and do something else and it will probably be around sooner than later.

[Unix_Beard]

You Mac guys should just forget about TTG for now and come back in a month or two to see if it is around. Hopefully that will save you a lot of grief from checking up on it everyday. Just forget about it and do something else and it will probably be around sooner than later.

What do you think we've been doing for the last three months?

[mahk]

Amen.

Hopefully the imminent release of Tiger will bring some good news ... although I'm not holding my breath.

[Unix_Beard]

Well, apparently the Creative Zen users get the nod over Mac users. Lame.

[tonyf3]

TivoToGo works just fine for me on Windows XP. I've really had no problems other than getting a good codec when I initially set it up. My transfer rates with a 540 series 2 are in the 6Mb range. No complaints here.

You Mac guys should just forget about TTG for now and come back in a month or two to see if it is around. Hopefully that will save you a lot of grief from checking up on it everyday. Just forget about it and do something else and it will probably be around sooner than later.

Ok, good for you. But,..how's the playback, viewing size, screen ratio, etc. Are you really happy with it? Or could it have been done better, and for everyone.

[mahk]

Tiger released.

Deafening silence from Tivo.

Big surprise.

[AnteL0pe]

Tiger released.

Deafening silence from Tivo.

Big surprise.
Ummmm, not yet. Comes out the 29th according to apple.com

[SavMan]

Ummmm, not yet. Comes out the 29th according to apple.com

Yes, and now Apple has no reason (not that they had any in the first place, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt for a moment) to keep TiVo from announcing that they really had T2G Mac ready all this time, but big ole' mean Apple said they couldn't talk about it because Quicktime 7 (advertised on Apple's site for months) was required and that would only come out with Tiger. The apologists have been claiming for the past three months that this is all Apple's fault, and that once Tiger was announced, TiVo would be off of the gag order and could announce T2G Mac.

Also, notice that Apple will have developed and released an entire new operating system in the same timespan it's taken for TiVo to NOT develop a way for us to transfer the MPEGs TiVo stores to our computers.

Pathetic.

[scheckeNYK]

Here's a thought. If we do get TTG w/Tiger, there's no way its not integrated to iDVD. iDVD comes free on equipped machines, meaning that Mac users wouldn't have to buy a $50 piece of software to achieve full functionality of TTG. But if they've delayed the announcement till Tiger debuts, then yes, we would have to buy additional software. Our purchase comes at $129 (or less for 10.4 upgrade) so the Windows folks can't turn around and yell bloody murder that we got TTG for free. Of course we get tons of other added functionality for out $129, but that's not the point. Also the presence of QT 7 is probably a major issue. I hope we have some answers at NAB!

[AnteL0pe]

Here's a thought. If we do get TTG w/Tiger, there's no way its not integrated to iDVD. iDVD comes free on equipped machines, meaning that Mac users wouldn't have to buy a $50 piece of software to achieve full functionality of TTG.
That isnt necessarily true. I hope to see integration wit iApps, but the rumors say that all we have been waiting on is QT 7.

But if they've delayed the announcement till Tiger debuts, then yes, we would have to buy additional software. Our purchase comes at $129 (or less for 10.4 upgrade) so the Windows folks can't turn around and yell bloody murder that we got TTG for free.
Ya... not really. You will get a hell of a lot more for your $129 than just TiVo2Go. I know I would be upgrading to Tiger even if TiVo2Go never came out. So from a pure economic decision, Tiger costs $129 and Tivo2Go gest $0 from that pie.

Of course we get tons of other added functionality for out $129, but that's not the point.
Ya, it kinda is. Again, from my example above. Would you be upgrading to Tiger if TiVo2Go wasnt a factor (which it very well may not be)? If so, then the $129 price tag has nothing to do with TiVo2Go. Maybe some people werent planning on upgrading, and they will if it brings TiVo2Go functionality. Those people could attribute some of the cost to TiVo2Go at that point.

In the end though, I hope TiVo2Go does come as a result of Tiger coming out. I hope that TiVo2Go is fully integrated with iApps. And i hope it pisses off Win users. And i hope they do complain. I'll be sure to remind them that "they chose their OS, they got what they deserved." Or some other such worthless argument that has been pointed at Mac users.

[SavMan]

Here's a thought. If we do get TTG w/Tiger, there's no way its not integrated to iDVD.
If we were getting T2G with Tiger, it'd be announced by now. There is no conceivable reason why TiVo would be sitting on the news if they had it.

iDVD comes free on equipped machines, meaning that Mac users wouldn't have to buy a $50 piece of software to achieve full functionality of TTG.
No, they have to buy a $79 suite of software. iDVD 5 doesn't come preloaded, you buy it as part of iLife. That's on top of the $129 for the OS.

But if they've delayed the announcement till Tiger debuts, then yes, we would have to buy additional software. Our purchase comes at $129 (or less for 10.4 upgrade) so the Windows folks can't turn around and yell bloody murder that we got TTG for free.
Still not gonna happen, but remember, they got T2G for FREE... to burn DVDs cost them $50. We'd have to pay $129 just to get the basic functionality, plus $79 to burn DVDs.

Either way, I just want an answer from TiVo when we will see T2G Mac.

[gonzotek]

Still not gonna happen, but remember, they got T2G for FREE... to burn DVDs cost them $50. We'd have to pay $129 just to get the basic functionality, plus $79 to burn DVDs.Only win2000 and greater users got it for free, under that definition. Below 2000(ME,98,95), they would have had to upgrade or be in the same boat as mac users: able to transfer files via the web interface, but unable to do anything with them once transferred. Just mentioning a technical point of order. There are many pcs out there still running 98 (and at least a few still running 95 and *shudder* ME)

[scheckeNYK]

That isnt necessarily true. I hope to see integration wit iApps, but the rumors say that all we have been waiting on is QT 7.
This is a classic which came first, chicken or the egg? We weren't getting QT 7 in a standalone upgrade. All we were have been waiting on on was QT 7, which was waiting on 10.4


Ya... not really. You will get a hell of a lot more for your $129 than just TiVo2Go. I know I would be upgrading to Tiger even if TiVo2Go never came out. So from a pure economic decision, Tiger costs $129 and Tivo2Go gest $0 from that pie.
It's still an added cost to the end user. With 10.3 and below there is no TTG functionality, thus making it an antiquated OS for those wishing to use it in conjunction with Tivo's latest offering. If a Mac user wants to use TTG they must buy Tiger - for all its merits or just for TTG. Call it planned obscelesance if you will.


Ya, it kinda is. Again, from my example above. Would you be upgrading to Tiger if TiVo2Go wasnt a factor (which it very well may not be)? If so, then the $129 price tag has nothing to do with TiVo2Go. Maybe some people werent planning on upgrading, and they will if it brings TiVo2Go functionality. Those people could attribute some of the cost to TiVo2Go at that point.
Personally, having worked for Apple previously I will be using my connections to get 10.4 for free so there's no cost either way. But if there's no TTG solution out of the box i'll wait till 10.4.1 (or later) before upgrading. I waited a good 4-6 months before upgrading to Panther. A feature as useful as TTG would help bridge the gap.

In the end though, I hope TiVo2Go does come as a result of Tiger coming out. I hope that TiVo2Go is fully integrated with iApps. And i hope it pisses off Win users. And i hope they do complain. I'll be sure to remind them that "they chose their OS, they got what they deserved." Or some other such worthless argument that has been pointed at Mac users.
At least you see the bigger picture here. Despite its dependance on QT7, TTG's release will be dictated by the potential sales of Tiger boxes if anything. As for Windows users, I could care less. I've got far more productive work to do on my Mac than to have a pointless vendetta against folks who don't see the benefit of Apple.

[scheckeNYK]

No, they have to buy a $79 suite of software. iDVD 5 doesn't come preloaded, you buy it as part of iLife. That's on top of the $129 for the OS.


I recall having iDVD preloaded on my 17-inch PowerBook with 10.2 and still there after clean installing Panther. I suppose with the debut of the iLife suite they have yanked it from the out of the box line-up, but a current employee told me its pre-installed on machines with SuperDrives. What does anyone think about the rumored blu-ray drives coming on G5s now? Also, if they add iDVD functionality, do you think that will port to DVDSP4? I have no inention of touching iDVD since I use DVDSP exclusively.

[Fofer]

All we were have been waiting on on was QT 7, which was waiting on 10.4...

With 10.3 and below there is no TTG functionality...

If a Mac user wants to use TTG they must buy Tiger...

At least you see the bigger picture here. Despite its dependance on QT...


Its worthwile to mention that all of this talk about TiVoToGo for Mac relying on Tiger and QuickTime 7 was/is sheer conjecture on the part of some members here. It has no basis in any real announcement, implied or otherwise, from TiVo or Apple. Furthering this assumption will only serve to set Mac customers up for inevitable disappointment.

Personally I'm betting that TiVo is actually going to rely on Microsoft updating the Windows Media Player for Mac. It's DRM capabilities will need to be on par with it's PC counterpart in order for this to happen.

Sure, I'd love for TiVoToGo to be based on Apple/Fairtunes DRM and Quicktime, but I don't see it happening.

[Rangers4me]

Well folks you have been waiting for an answer, and I have it for you. David Courtney, TiVo CFO was a guest lecturer at my University today, and I asked him about Mac Tivo ToGo support. He said that it is very expensive to develop, and it is very doubtful that we will get Tivo ToGo for the mac anytime soon.

So its up to us, the users, to come up with either a way for the mac to read .Tivo files, or a way to convert them.

[Fofer]

Well folks you have been waiting for an answer, and I have it for you. David Courtney, TiVo CFO was a guest lecturer at my University today, and I asked him about Mac Tivo ToGo support. He said that it is very expensive to develop, and it is very doubtful that we will get Tivo ToGo for the mac anytime soon.

So its up to us, the users, to come up with either a way for the mac to read .Tivo files, or a way to convert them.

Great work, Rangers4me. Sort of sad that it takes a college student attending a guest lecture to get an answer that we've been clamoring for, for months.

That said, I wish he would have clarified and said it's the DRM that's expensive to develop. Extracted files (extracted via other means we can't discuss here) play just fine on a Mac in QuickTime Player (with the MPEG-2 plugin) or mplayer.

TiVo, I hardly knew ye.

[Unix_Beard]

Someone in another thread speculated jokingly that Tivo might think the ADC membership and Developer's previews were too expensive. I didn't think it was humorous then because I've run across many companies that act accordingly. One company didn't want to even upgrade their single test Mac to Panther (this was 2 weeks ago) to test a javascript bug in the newest Safari. (This was a contractor for a HUGE nationwide charity organization.)

So, it seems as if the bean counters are holding this up. If this statement is true this seems to be a definitive no.

[SavMan]

...it is very doubtful that we will get Tivo ToGo for the mac anytime soon.
Damn it, I had always hoped I was wrong. So much for TiVo... they're losing two subscriptions come July. I hope the deal with MS was worth it.

[chessplayer]

David Courtney, TiVo CFO was a guest lecturer at my University today, and I asked him about Mac Tivo ToGo support. He said that it is very expensive to develop, and it is very doubtful that we will get Tivo ToGo for the mac anytime soon. Thank you for asking him about that, and letting us know.

It's disappointing to hear that, but at the same time it's a breath of fresh air to get a straight answer for once instead of being strung along with "we're working on it"!

Which leads to the question of whether "we're working on it" is a flat-out lie. If money is the issue, why use any resources working on it?

It is better to know the truth, so we can look for other alternatives, than to be misled.

[AnteL0pe]

Personally I'm betting that TiVo is actually going to rely on Microsoft updating the Windows Media Player for Mac. It's DRM capabilities will need to be on par with it's PC counterpart in order for this to happen.
There is no way we will see another version of WMP for the Mac.

Well folks you have been waiting for an answer, and I have it for you. David Courtney, TiVo CFO was a guest lecturer at my University today, and I asked him about Mac Tivo ToGo support. He said that it is very expensive to develop, and it is very doubtful that we will get Tivo ToGo for the mac anytime soon.
Damn it..... SavMan, you still have that link on how to pull video out of the firewire port on a Comcast DVR?

So its up to us, the users, to come up with either a way for the mac to read .Tivo files, or a way to convert them.
Unless someone wants to port the DirectShow filter, which I imagine is imposible without some source or documentation, this isnt going to happen.

[ZeoTiVo]

Someone in another thread speculated jokingly that Tivo might think the ADC membership and Developer's previews were too expensive. I didn't think it was humorous then because I've run across many companies that act accordingly. One company didn't want to even upgrade their single test Mac to Panther (this was 2 weeks ago) to test a javascript bug in the newest Safari. (This was a contractor for a HUGE nationwide charity organization.)

So, it seems as if the bean counters are holding this up. If this statement is true this seems to be a definitive no.

I doubt it is that. TiVo could hire a contractor that is already in the ADC. Heck, they could get 4 or 5 candidates out of this thread probably.
It seems to me the expensive part is writing the DRM code since none exists now that TiVo can make use of on the Mac platform. Microsoft had it and cut a deal with TiVo, probably smiling inwardly that MS knew TiVo could not make a similar deal with Apple.(I doubt TiVo would actually sign anything giving MS exclusivity of TTG)
So I will now step out of the way and let you all rant and rave. Though starting up a petition or letetrs or phone calls into TiVo would make more of an impression. I wonder if Mac users canceling subscriptions would spur TiVo toward developing or if it would make them see less motivation to develop it since they had even fewer Mac users.

anyway if you all start a petition to drop DRM altogether from the product Let me know so I can sign it. Though I still worry if that would unleash the content providers on tiVo.

[Unix_Beard]

I don't understand the issue. What is the added cost? I assume Tivo employs programmers full-time. I also assume that they would hire programmers that understand the technology.

[cwoody222]

But TiVo took the 'easy way' and used an existing DRM scheme that only works with Windows.

They didn't develop their own (you know, 'cause they only had a year to do it and they ain't that quick).

They're not about to spend $$$ to develop a seperate solution JUST for Mac users.

So basically until their current provider (MS) makes their product Mac compatible (highly unlikely), we're S.O.L.

All because TiVo couldn't create their own method to protect files in 12 months. That's just sad.

[gonzotek]

But TiVo took the 'easy way' and used an existing DRM scheme that only works with Windows.

They didn't develop their own (you know, 'cause they only had a year to do it and they ain't that quick).

They're not about to spend $$$ to develop a seperate solution JUST for Mac users.

So basically until their current provider (MS) makes their product Mac compatible (highly unlikely), we're S.O.L.

All because TiVo couldn't create their own method to protect files in 12 months. That's just sad.
Why does everyone keep stating as fact that the DRM used by TiVo is a MicroSoft developed DRM? Is there some actual, technical evidence, or just the supposition that because it currently works on Windows only, it must have come from MS? Because the various DRM implementations that have come from MS so far have been examined by lots of people and look NOTHING like the .tivo way of doing things. There's also this, the resume of one Arthur Van Hoff, Principal Engineer of TiVo, which states that he (and I quote):"Designed TiVo’s DRM for in-home Media, DRM for Internet distributed content, content publishing, content encoding and encryption, and third party application strategy"http://www.artfahrt.com/personal/resume-mar-2005.pdf

If there is some factual evidence somewhere that MS did in fact create the DRM used by TiVo for TTG, please please please point me to it.

[Fofer]

There is no way we will see another version of WMP for the Mac.


Why not?

[AnteL0pe]

The issue is the DirectShow filter as I understand it.

[dropd]

Why does everyone keep stating as fact that the DRM used by TiVo is a MicroSoft developed DRM? Is there some actual, technical evidence, or just the supposition that because it currently works on Windows only, it must have come from MS? Because the various DRM implementations that have come from MS so far have been examined by lots of people and look NOTHING like the .tivo way of doing things. There's also this, the resume of one Arthur Van Hoff, Principal Engineer of TiVo, which states that he (and I quote):http://www.artfahrt.com/personal/resume-mar-2005.pdf

If there is some factual evidence somewhere that MS did in fact create the DRM used by TiVo for TTG, please please please point me to it.

If you also look at that resume, you'll note that the resume basically states that van Hoff no longer works for TiVo.

So, Mr. Strangeberry being gone would again not be a good sign in terms of expecting any revelatory technology innovations from TiVo. This would include Mac TiVoToGo.