Where to get a "big" multiswitch?

[Rob00GT]

Over the last couple of weeks I've been helping my father-in-law wire his new home (still under construction) for network and TV. Naturally I insisted he run 2 coax cables to each room just in case he later decides to add a DirecTivo. Here's the problem, it's a really BIG house and now I need a multiswitch to service all those rooms.

Anyone know where I should start my search for a DirecTV compliant "cascadable" multiswitch with 5 inputs (4 from the dish and 1 from broadcast antennae) and at least 16 outputs?

[litzdog911]

I've had good luck with http://www.solidsignal.com

They have a couple different 5x16 multiswitches on their web site.

[ebonovic]

To save some money (a lot) actually.
It takes more room then one integrated switch, but it will cost about $100 total, vs $450ish for an integrated one... and works just as good.

Get TWO 5x8 multiswitches, preferable the same brand.
Get FOUR 2way splitters that pass the DC on one leg only (Youy can get them on ebay for around $2 each)
Get EIGHT short coax cables, either make them or go with the ones from smarthome.com

Send your SAT lines into the splitters.
Then matchup the outputs of those splitters to the multiswitch.
KEEP the dc passing leg's to one switch, and make sure the inputs match on both swiches.

Mount the switches and spliters to a small piece of plywood.
Boom. 5x16 multiswitch, for $100.
In the future if you need 24... You can just get one more 5x8, replace the two way's with three way...ect...

Alternative method would to use 3 5x8 multiswitches.
Feed the sat lines to one, then the 8 outputs to the two other switches, to get 16..

[feldon23]

You realize you can use splitters with multiple 4x8 multiswitches to get 16 or 24 outputs, right?

[Rob00GT]

I hadn't really thought about it, but feldon23 are you saying to take two 4x8 multiswitches and plug them into my first 5x8 multiswitch for a total of 16 outputs? In theory I guess that would work too....

[Jonathan_S]

Originally posted by Rob00GT
I hadn't really thought about it, but feldon23 are you saying to take two 4x8 multiswitches and plug them into my first 5x8 multiswitch for a total of 16 outputs? In theory I guess that would work too.... Well you could, but that would be more expensive than the 4 splitters + 2 4(or 5)x8 multiswitch setup ebonovic and feldon23 were talking about.

I know that normally we say you can't split satellite signals, but this one instance is the exception. If you take the four coax from the dish and use splitters that only pass DC on one leg and the run the output from each splitter to the same input on both multiswitches.
I.E. coax 1 goes to a splitter and then the outputs go to the 13V 0Hz possition on both multiswitches, coax 2 to 18V 0Hz, coax 3 to 13V 22Khz, coax 4 to 18V 22Khz.

This works because multiswitches lock each input to a specific portion of the total signal so they can constantly see it all. And the DC pass on one leg prevents both multiswitches from sending signaling voltage / tone back to the dish. One multiswitch sends the signals the other just sees the same video. (This is also why it is important to make sure the inputs from each splitter are the same, otherwise the non signalling multiswitch won't be able to send the right transponders through to receivers connected to it)

[JimSpence]

Why have all lines to all rooms active? Will all of the rooms have receivers? If not, then just have a patch panel located in a central location where you patch the rooms that need signals.

[DrEvil]

Also, the splitters need to be high frequency splitters.

Up to 2GHz.

Most are for cable TV and the signal will get attenuated above 1GHz.

I used four ASKA SSP-2DC splitters (900-2050MHz) from www.18inch.com and they work fine for this application.

[dwight]

Hi ebonovic,

Please forgive a stupid question...

When the installer put in my oval dish, he didn't have a cascadable multiswitch with him - so what he did was to remove the integrated multiswitch from the dish itself and just hooked up the four cables directly to the 2 LNB's. Then, he hooked up the other end of the cables in the basement to a 5x8 multiswitch (it's a JVI Trunkline 35-TRDS8 multiswitch).

If I needed more than the 8 outputs from the multiswitch, could I use the splitters and a second 5x8 multiswitch as you've described without having the multiswitch in the dish in place?

Thanks,

Dwight

[ebonovic]

Is this a recent install?
Is your triple LNB assemble one solid piece (on the bottom piece) or is it three seperate ones... Basically can you take one of them out with leaving the other two in place.

If it is one solid unit, then you should have no problems using the splitter method.

Else you could use the 2nd method.
Pickup two 4x8 or 5x8's... Take the first 4 outputs from your current switch.. Feed it to New Switch 1; Take the last 4 outputs from your current switch.. Feed ito New Switch 2;... 16 outputs.

No question is stupid, stupid is trying something with getting all the info first.

[dwight]

Thanks for the reply!

This is a 2-year-old installation. The dish has space for 3 separate LNB's (I presently have only 2 installed in it), and the "housing" at the base of the LNB's is one solid piece that used to contain a multiswitch with 5 inputs (the 5th is for, I believe, the LNB I'd need if I was to receive an HD signal) and 4 outputs. The "housing" is secured with screws, so the installer didn't have to pry it open or anything to get at and remove the original multiswitch. In fact, I think I still have the original multiswitch someplace in the garage...

So, the way it is now, the dish contains just 2 "regular" dual LNB's with 4 runs of coax coming out of it.

Based on the above, could I use the splitter approach, or would I need to use cascadable multiswitches?

Thanks again for the info!

Dwight

[rlj5242]

Based on the above, could I use the splitter approach, or would I need to use cascadable multiswitches? You don't need a cascadable switch unless you want to run 4 outputs from your first switch into a second switch. You can use the splitter approach with any 5x8 switch.

-Robert

[JimSpence]

You can use the dish as it is with the four outputs from the two dual LNBs. You just need to connect the Sat A and Sat B LNB to the appropriate inputs of the 4x8 switch. If you were to add the third LNB, you need the special Sat C kit which includes the LNB and a combiner that is connected to the Sat B 18v side of the multiswitch.

[lqwertyl]

ebonvic,

I understood your installation instructions up to

"KEEP the dc passing leg's to one switch, and make sure the inputs match on both swiches."

[JimSpence]

You want to connect like inputs of each multiswitch to each splitter, with the DC passing leg of each splitter to the same switch.

[MichaelK]

search on feldon's name for multiswitch. He posts great diagrams of exactly how to do it. You just need to find one and its very self explanatroy looking at the picture

[feldon23]

I don't have one that makes two 4x8s into a 4x16.

[ebonovic]

Originally posted by lqwertyl
ebonvic,

I understood your installation instructions up to

"KEEP the dc passing leg's to one switch, and make sure the inputs match on both swiches."

Like Jim Said... You want to keep the DC current flowing from one multiswitch.

So to make it easy...

You have 4 splitters:
INPUT
|----> OUTPUT (NO-DC Current)
|----> OUTPUT (DC Current)

With masking tape: Mark one of your multiswitches DC, the other NO-DC

Do one SPLITTER at a time:
Take one line (does matter which one) from the SAT, and feed it into 1 splitter.

Take the NO-DC Output from the splitter, hook it to the first port of the no-DC multiswitch
Take the DC Output from the splitter, hook it to the first port of the DC Multiswitch.

Do this three more times for the three inputs (if you purchased 5x8 multiswitch, skip over the input for the OTA signal).

Let me see if I can dig up the picture of my switch setup.

Earl

[ebonovic]

Okay here are some pictures:

This one is the 1st multiswitch, connected to the splitters.
This is the NON-DC switch:

Click HERE for 3mb version of picture (http://www.njentertainment.biz/eb/IMG_0802.jpg)

http://www.njentertainment.biz/eb/img_0802_post.jpg

This one is the pair in the rack:

Click HERE for 3mb version of picture (http://www.njentertainment.biz/eb/IMG_0806.jpg)

http://www.njentertainment.biz/eb/img_0806_post.jpg

[designr]

If this is new construction and new wire, why not set up a "whole home" system? Basically you would put all you AV equipment (TiVos, DVD players, etc) in one place (i.e., a central closet). Then run IR distribution and Coax from there to each room.

When I remodeled, all the walls were open so I installed conduit to all the rooms and the roof. Thereafter, I pulled 5 RG-6 (with room for more) from the roof to the network closet where the multi-switch was installed. From the network closet, I pulled 1 or more RG-6 and 2 or more CAT5e to each room.

The TiVos, receiver and DVD player are all in the network closet, conveniently located next to the living room theater. (I also distributed speaker wire for the surround speakers, CAT-5e for s-video and a bunch of RG-59 for both composite RCA and component.)

Of the CAT5e drops, some are used for network data and others are shared between phone and IR. (Network can not be shared with anything on the same CAT5e. Phone and IR can be shared on the same CAT5e.)

I then bought a video distribution modulator. Now, in every room, the TiVos are on channels 3 and 88 and the DVD player is on channel 84. I have both s-video and component to the living room for the big TV. Everything can be controlled from any room with any IR remote.

[Rob00GT]

Hadn't thought about the "whole home" solution. We did run Cat6 cables (at least one drop to every room) and will be installing a Linksys/Cisco 16 port gigabit switch to allow maximum bandwidth in the house. I wanted them to have future expandibiltiy for wired media center extenders, TivoWeb, or whatever technology becomes best-in-class, in multiple rooms.

[lqwertyl]

Oh, OK.

Thanks for the pics and explanation.

[MichaelK]

Originally posted by feldon23
I don't have one that makes two 4x8s into a 4x16.

I'm shocked and shagrined!



:D

[Jonathan_S]

Originally posted by feldon23
I don't have one that makes two 4x8s into a 4x16. I'm almost surprised you posted that you didn't have one rather than just making one and posting that :)

'Of course, I've always had a diagram for making two 4x8s into a 4x16' :D

[staci]

Ok I need help now,

Presently I have a 3lnb DTV setup . The 4 wires each going into a 2 way splitter. And then there are a 2 4x8 powered multi switches. Each 2 way splitter feeds the same voltage on the 2 8 ways ie... A line feeds both 13v on both multi switches, B line feeds 18v on both multi switches... and so and so on.


When they did this a few months ago I lost my antenna feed, they said they would come back and swap out the switches they never did.

Now we need to add another multiswitch, so the new tech comes out with 4 1x4 splitters to swap those out with the 4 2 ways above. BTW the new ones say 5-1000mhz, the old ones say 950-2150 mhz. I said that might be a problem, he was totally lost, so I watched and helped to make sure he kept the voltages the same. Well now nothing worked and the multiswitches were getting very HOT!!!

SO HE put everything back to the way it was, and it works like before but I still need another 3 outputs and I want my off air antenna back. He said he would call out a lead tech next week.

What do I actually need from him to get this working with off air.

Thanks guys

Staci

[JimSpence]

The 1x4 splitters need to be high frequency, like the 1x2's,

But, in your case I think you could just use four outputs from one of the 4x8's and connect to a 5x8. This way you would then have 20 active outputs and the 5th input on the new switch could be used for the antenna. The 8 outputs from this last switch will have the OTA signal available.

[feldon23]

Anyone showing up to a satellite install with 5-1000mhz splitters is brain damaged.

DirecTV requires 950-2150 mhz bandwidth and startihg with the new MPEG-4 Ka/Ku setup, the entire range of 5-2150MHz is required.

[JaserLet]

www.picomacom.com

I have a Pico-Macom TSMS-5/16RK which is a rackmount / wallmount 5-input (4 satellite + 1 OTA) 16 output switch. It's an awesome piece of equipment.

[staci]

Anyone showing up to a satellite install with 5-1000mhz splitters is brain damaged.

DirecTV requires 950-2150 mhz bandwidth and startihg with the new MPEG-4 Ka/Ku setup, the entire range of 5-2150MHz is required.


I thought it was going to be a problem, his thought thou was his warehouse wouldnt have them if they werent DTV approved?

Do they make a 1x4 power passing splitters. 5-2150 mhz ?

Im still looking for the best easiest way to rectify this .

Can you get 1x4 splitters power passing and go into 3 5x8s?

If you can that would be the easiest I think?

Staci

[Want1394]

Your system is getting way beyond complex.

You need 19 outputs (sat), and you want OTA on how many of the outputs?

I strongly suggest you consider the following and make your choices:

If you only need OTA in a couple of spots, use simple splitters and diplexers to get it distributed, or use dedicated coax. If you need OTA to more locations than 2 or 3, then you will need a good distribution amplifier before going into the multiswitch(s).

For 19 outputs, you really need a 5x16 and a 5x8 switch, connected as you have the two 5x8's today. There are no high-frequency splitters other than 1x2m, and the signal loss adds up even if there were.

If I needed that many outputs and OTA as well, I would spend a bunch more money and put in an amplified Spaun system, just to reduce complexity and worries. YMMV. Good luck and get a far more knowledgable installer for such a large system.

[JimSpence]

I thought it was going to be a problem, his thought thou was his warehouse wouldnt have them if they werent DTV approved?

Do they make a 1x4 power passing splitters. 5-2150 mhz ?

Im still looking for the best easiest way to rectify this .

Can you get 1x4 splitters power passing and go into 3 5x8s?

If you can that would be the easiest I think?

StaciPlease re-read my reply above about just connecting another 5x8 switch to one of the current 4x8s. This is the easiest and least expensive way to go. Only one 5x8 switch needed.

BTW, do you need the OTA to go to all TV's? If so, then you'll need to split the OTA signal to feed each of the three 5x8's if you go the splitter route.

And to answer your question about a 1x4 splitter.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=02&CAT=&PROD=SP4HF1
Just make sure you connect a switch to the one passive DC port.

[Philly Bill]

Like Jim Said... You want to keep the DC current flowing from one multiswitch.

So to make it easy...

You have 4 splitters:
INPUT
|----> OUTPUT (NO-DC Current)
|----> OUTPUT (DC Current)

With masking tape: Mark one of your multiswitches DC, the other NO-DC

Do one SPLITTER at a time:
Take one line (does matter which one) from the SAT, and feed it into 1 splitter.

Take the NO-DC Output from the splitter, hook it to the first port of the no-DC multiswitch
Take the DC Output from the splitter, hook it to the first port of the DC Multiswitch.

Do this three more times for the three inputs (if you purchased 5x8 multiswitch, skip over the input for the OTA signal).

Let me see if I can dig up the picture of my switch setup.

Earl


So Earl, is this the reason I couldn't just avoid fishing two cables from the dish to a room, then putting a splitter in, running the two outputs to a 3x4 multi switch and then having 4 feeds coming out of it for two DTivos? Because you can't have a DC output and a NO-DC output runing into the same TIVO/Multiswitch?

I'm not sure how to tell which output from the spitter is the DC and which is the NO-DC. Does it say so on the splitter? :confused:

So as long as you have all DC or all NO-DC inputs to a multi-switch the output is ok?

[DrEvil]

So Earl, is this the reason I couldn't just avoid fishing two cables from the dish to a room, then putting a splitter in, running the two outputs to a 3x4 multi switch and then having 4 feeds coming out of it for two DTivos? Because you can't have a DC output and a NO-DC output runing into the same TIVO/Multiswitch?

I'm not sure how to tell which output from the spitter is the DC and which is the NO-DC. Does it say so on the splitter? :confused:

So as long as you have all DC or all NO-DC inputs to a multi-switch the output is ok?

This would not work. If you tried this you would only get the odd or even transponders from the 101 degree satellites.

One cable is needed to carry the odd transponders - 13VDC is output from the multiswitch or the receiver to lock the upstream multiswitch or LNB's output.

The second cable is needed to carry the even transponders - 18VDC is output from the multiswitch or the receiver to lock the upstream multiswitch or LNB's output.

It would work to use two diplexers. First one to combine the Antenna signals with one of the transponder sets at the dish end then a second diplexer to separate the Antenna signals in the room. I wouldn't even bother to run the Antenna signals through the multiswitch, they would degrade the signal more than a regular splitter to whatever equipment you need to connect to.

If your locals are on the 119 degree satellites, or you want to get all of DirecTV's HD offerings then you need four cables to the room. In addition to the two cables for the odd/even transponders of the 101 satellites, two more cables are needed to get the 110/119 satellites.

Third cable - Odd transponders from the 119 satellite. 13VDC with a 22kHz tone is output by the multiswitch or receiver to lock the upstream multiswitch.
Fourth cable - Even transponders from 110/119 satellites. 18VDC with a 22kHz tone is output by the multiswitch or receiver to lock the upstream multiswitch.

Hope that helps.

[JimSpence]

Sorry Dr Evil, but your explanation isn't quite right. All outputs from the dish's multiswitch are capable of providing all TPs from any satellite. The receiver provides the switching signals/voltages to the LNB or multiswitch to provide the requested TPs. You implied that each cable is locked onto one combination. This is true only when using a downstream multisiwtch where it does lock the four inputs to the four different possibilities. So you only need the four lines from the triple LB dish to go to the 4x8 multiswitch, then only two to each DVR.

As for the splitter, the face of it usually has a line indicating which line is the pass thru.

[DrEvil]

Jim, you are correct, any of the outputs from the multiswitch can be locked to any transponder/sat set if we are talking about a Phase III oval dish.

I thought Philly Bill wanted to use one cable and a high frequency splitter and feed the two outputs from the splitter into the 3x4, then the second cable into the multiswitch for OTA to feed two DirecTiVo's. That won't work.

I was just describing what each of the four cables is needed for.

Earl's links to using high frequency splitters to feed two multiswitches aren't working so here's an alternate link.

www.solidsignal.com/manuals/www-solidsignal-com_5x16-PhaseIII.pdf

[Philly Bill]

Nice diagram. :up:


So... I have two lines running to my bedroom off the dish.

In the bedroom I have them going into a small multiswitch that has 4 lines comeing out. Those lines go - two each - to two different DTIVOS.

I only have a dual LNB round dish.

In a month or so if I want to upgrade to a Phase III dish and run two more lines to the den for an HDTIVO, and two lines to the playroom for another TIVO, I'm gonna have to run the 4 lines into a multiswitch with 8 outputs right? Two of them will go to the den, two to the playroom and two to the bedroom to go into that other small multi-switch.

I believe this will work as long as the multi-switch with 8 outputs is 'cascadable'? (In case you're wondering I already have 2 lines run to the bedroom, I really don't want to fish another two down there... not if I can just use the small multi-switch Ihave that is already there).

[naijai]

To save some money (a lot) actually.
It takes more room then one integrated switch, but it will cost about $100 total, vs $450ish for an integrated one... and works just as good.

Get TWO 5x8 multiswitches, preferable the same brand.
Get FOUR 2way splitters that pass the DC on one leg only (Youy can get them on ebay for around $2 each)
Get EIGHT short coax cables, either make them or go with the ones from smarthome.com

Send your SAT lines into the splitters.
Then matchup the outputs of those splitters to the multiswitch.
KEEP the dc passing leg's to one switch, and make sure the inputs match on both swiches.

Mount the switches and spliters to a small piece of plywood.
Boom. 5x16 multiswitch, for $100.
In the future if you need 24... You can just get one more 5x8, replace the two way's with three way...ect...

Alternative method would to use 3 5x8 multiswitches.
Feed the sat lines to one, then the 8 outputs to the two other switches, to get 16..


wow one of the very few dtv customers that knows how to use a splitter with a dtv system

[staci]

Jim,

Thanks for the help here, but I guess Im confused on the 2 ,3 or 4 ways. Why would you not want power being passed to all multiswitches.

In my present setup we have 4- 2 way Power passing splitters, all 4 power passing legs are going to the same 8 way switch, the other 4 are all going to the 2nd-8 way switch. And yes it works. But I want to know why. Why wouldn't both switches need to see power, or if you switched out the 2 ways for the 4 ways, and had more 8 way switches

When the tech swapped out the 2 ways for 4 ways 5-1000mhz, and added the additional 8 way, nothing worked and all the 8 ways got very very hot. I assumed the problem was the mhz issue vs the power passing. But now I think it was both issues.

Any idea why the 8 ways got hot (155 degrees with a infrared scanner), After he put the 2 ways back in the 8 ways came back to life but I still need that additional 3 outputs.

I think your idea of just adding a 5x8 for the third makes sense, but if that works, why even use the splitters at all. In other words why not just daisy chain enough 8 ways to make up your 20 outputs.


Im also trying to keep this back board clean and tidy. It seems everytinme DTv comes in they just slam it up there and have wires all going every which direction. (poor workmanship)

S

[DrEvil]

Nice diagram. :up:


So... I have two lines running to my bedroom off the dish.

In the bedroom I have them going into a small multiswitch that has 4 lines comeing out. Those lines go - two each - to two different DTIVOS.

I only have a dual LNB round dish.

In a month or so if I want to upgrade to a Phase III dish and run two more lines to the den for an HDTIVO, and two lines to the playroom for another TIVO, I'm gonna have to run the 4 lines into a multiswitch with 8 outputs right? Two of them will go to the den, two to the playroom and two to the bedroom to go into that other small multi-switch.

I believe this will work as long as the multi-switch with 8 outputs is 'cascadable'? (In case you're wondering I already have 2 lines run to the bedroom, I really don't want to fish another two down there... not if I can just use the small multi-switch Ihave that is already there).

Run the four cables from the built in multiswitch on the Phase III dish to with a cascadable 4(or 5)x8 multiswitch, then all the existing and new cables to the 8 outputs.

The two DirecTiVo's in the bedroom will continue to work as is seeing just the main 101 degree satellites. Till you need HD in their you're good to go.

[DrEvil]

Jim,

Thanks for the help here, but I guess Im confused on the 2 ,3 or 4 ways. Why would you not want power being passed to all multiswitches.

In my present setup we have 4- 2 way Power passing splitters, all 4 power passing legs are going to the same 8 way switch, the other 4 are all going to the 2nd-8 way switch. And yes it works. But I want to know why. Why wouldn't both switches need to see power, or if you switched out the 2 ways for the 4 ways, and had more 8 way switches

When the tech swapped out the 2 ways for 4 ways 5-1000mhz, and added the additional 8 way, nothing worked and all the 8 ways got very very hot. I assumed the problem was the mhz issue vs the power passing. But now I think it was both issues.

Any idea why the 8 ways got hot (155 degrees with a infrared scanner), After he put the 2 ways back in the 8 ways came back to life but I still need that additional 3 outputs.

I think your idea of just adding a 5x8 for the third makes sense, but if that works, why even use the splitters at all. In other words why not just daisy chain enough 8 ways to make up your 20 outputs.


Im also trying to keep this back board clean and tidy. It seems everytinme DTv comes in they just slam it up there and have wires all going every which direction. (poor workmanship)

S

I'll interject a comment here until Jim can get back on this.

By using one multiswitch to power the LNB's/built in multiswitch and blocking the DC voltage/current from any other multiswitch you're cutting down the chance of having the current from one multiswitch that may put out say something like 19VDC and another puts out a lower voltage, say 17VDC, having current flow from the higher voltage to the lower voltage multiswitch. This backwards current flow can eventually damage the output transistors on the lower voltage multiswitch. So you don't want DC power to get to the upstream multiswitch from more than one multiswitch if possible.

The DirecTV signal out of the LNB's are from 950MHz to 1450MHz, so the 4 ways were attenuating the signals above 1GHz or completely blocking them.

[JimSpence]

Right you are DrEvil.
Simply put, you only want one of the multiswitches locking the onboard Phase III multswitch.
So if you go the 1x4 splitter route you need to make sure that the power pass leg on each of the four splitters go to the same multiswitch.

As I posted above, it would be a lot cheaper to just add another 4(or5)x8 switch to one of your current switches.

You could daisy chain enough 4x8's to make it work, but you are decreasing the signal slightly each time. To do it in your case, you'd need to daisy chain 4 switches to get to 20 outputs. The last 8 outputs would be going through the previous 3 switches.

[staci]

Jim and DrEvil,

Now I understand the power thing, thank you.

I see my options are as follows

1 Leave existing alone and daisy-chain a 5x8 to one of the 8 way's (BTW, would it matter which 8 way, meaning the one that was getting the power from the splitters?) This would give me 20 outputs and then feed that 8 way with the OTA feed. This would be cheapest solution

2, Take out the 2 way splitters, put in 4 way splitters that you referenced above and either add a 5x8 giving 24 total outputs (for future). Not much money and room for expansion.

3, Take out the 2 way splitters, put in 4 way splitters that you referenced above and replace both 8 ways and replace with 3-5x8s giving 24 outputs all with OTA capability. A little more money, but most versatile for future

4, See if I can get DTv to shell out $$$ and put in 2-5x16s or 1-5x16 and 1-5x8, this would be the cleanest but most $$.

Am I seeing this right?

Should we be doing anything else such as replacing everything with 5-2150 mhz splitters and Switches for future?

Thanks for the help.

Merry Christmas

Staci

[JimSpence]

Merry Christmas.

I would go with your #1 choice. It doesn't matter which switch you add the new 5x8 to.
Then if you decide you need more outputs, then you can replace the 1x2 splitter with 1x4's and reuse the new switch.
You may have a better chance of DirecTV giving you a 5x8 than a 5x16.

[rbtravis]

Amerisatinc Is A Good Vender On Ebay For 5x12 5x16 Multiswitches. Prices
Range From 140.00 To160.00 Excellent Equipment - Honest Vendor - I Bought Mine Almost A Year Ago Works Great. Find His Offerings On Ebay Under Consumer Electronics Search Multiswitch

[staci]

Jim and others.........Help please again,

The Tech's came out today (lead tech, along). I thought they did nice work, but at the end of the day they still have small problems.


The tech decided to go a different route with this install as opposed to what you said Jim.

In a quick run down this is what he has

Left to Right

4 lines from LNB going to 2 -1x2s power passing, these 4 outputs go to 2- 6x8s

Then these 2 6x8s go into 8, 1x2 power passing splitters. These 8 power passing splitters feed 4-6x8. All recievers are connected to these 4 6x8's. As you can see in the image the off air goes into a 4 way splitter which feeds these last 4-6x8s going into the flexport.

2 notes, all 6x8s are NON POWERED SWITCHES , and all 1x2s are power passing on BOTH LEGS.
Now everything seems to work except the OTA, and he nor I have any idea why. This was with a diplexer between the switch and a reciever.

Any thoughts about this install, plenty of room for future growth, but no OTA and we have no idea why.

Help

Staci and Ken

PS, here are the updated final pics 1/1/06 with the 2 dixplerrs in the image as well feeding 2 TV's

http://www.ampsales.net/miscpics/dtvstr [br][hr]http://www.ampsales.net/miscpics/dtvleft[br][hr]
http://www.ampsales.net/miscpics/dtvright

[ebonovic]

First let me say...

WHOLLY CRAP!!!!! Did you do the work or the installer...
If the installer did... did you have to pay anything extra...

If not... You owe that installer a dinner or something... that is an extremely complicated (BUT VERY WELL DONE JOB).

Okay... as for no OTA...

Two questions before I can answer...
1) What type of Dish do you have? 3LNB or 5LNB
2) What type of reciever is on the other end that you are not getting OTA on..

Quickly off the top of my head.

1- I am about 75% sure the "flexports" on the Zinwells, DON'T do diplexing in of an OTA signal. They are for usage with the 95 and 72 SATs... not OTA.

2- If you are have the 5LNB dish, then diplexing is no longer allowed with those runs, as the two additional SATS are using the diplexing range.


Dang... I keep looking at the picture... and all tucked in behind the water pipes...

[Thom]

Jim and others.........Help please again,

The Tech's came out today (lead tech, along). I thought they did nice work, but at the end of the day they still have small problems.


The tech decided to go a different route with this install as opposed to what you said Jim.

In a quick run down this is what he has

Left to Right

4 lines from LNB going to 2 -1x2s power passing, these 4 outputs go to 2- 6x8s

Then these 2 6x8s go into 8, 1x2 power passing splitters. These 8 power passing splitters feed 4-6x8. All recievers are connected to these 4 6x8's. As you can see in the image the off air goes into a 4 way splitter which feeds these last 4-6x8s going into the flexport.

2 notes, all 6x8s are NON POWERED SWITCHES , and all 1x2s are power passing on BOTH LEGS.
Now everything seems to work except the OTA, and he nor I have any idea why. This was with a diplexer between the switch and a reciever.

Any thoughts about this install, plenty of room for future growth, but no OTA and we have no idea why.

Help

Staci and Ken

http://www.ampsales.net/miscpics/satinstall

If those are Zinwell SAM-6802 multiswitches, then the installer connected the terrestrial signals to the FLEXPORT1 input. As Ebonovic said, the flexport inputs are purely for satellite connections, not terrestrial antenna/cable connections.

Furthermore, according to the user manual for the SAM-6802, it only passes 1% of any terrestrial antenna signal that passes through the multiswitch.

There is a diagram on how to get an antenna signal onto the final leg running to the receiver in this user manual: http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/6X8UserManual.pdf

Basically, you have install a diplexer one of the multiswitch output cables that run to each location, and another diplexer on that same cable at the FINAL location, to get a good signal.

[staci]

Actually theres about 15" behind most of the copper water lines, except for the ones that run on the back board. You can tell by looking at the joists above

I did most of the runs and I had 2- 4x8s on there before, he just took them off and my 4 1x2s and replaced everything. Yes I thought it was a nice job too

Heres another pic, showing the distance between the backboard and most of the water pipes


As far as the having to run 2 diplexrs per TV, theats horrible. Thats why he went with these 6x8s, so all recievers would be capable with 1 diplexer at any reciever.


Ken

http://www.ampsales.net/miscpics/dtvright

[JimSpence]

WOW! All I can say is that the installer must have had an excess of 6x8s he wanted to get rid of. That is overkill to the extreme.

What ebonovic and Thom said about OTA is correct. The 6802 6x8 switch doesn't have the OTA diplexer builtin like a 5x8 does.

To get OTA at each TV you need to have the four 6x8s replaced with 5x8s with each one getting the split OTA.

To simplify it, let's go back a few posts. If you don't need more than 16 outputs, I'd replace the two left most 6x8's with with 5x8s. Then your OTA signal would be split two ways to feed the OTA input on those two. Now OTA is available at each of the 16 outputs. There, done!

I would also like to know how long and how much that install cost?

[staci]

Jim,

To confirm, I put a diplexer at the switch and 1 at the TV and it works fine. Since we had no good idea where most of the outputs run to, the idea was to put in a switch that would have OTA on any TV that we wanted, with just the use of a diplexer at the Tv end, So much for good plans.

The lead tech who installed and designed this setup did 90 % of the work here. The other 2 guys stood back and watched (including the one who was dispatched to do this last week)and made jumpers for him and put connectors on those jumpers. The tech said this was the biggest single family install he has done. 3 guys were here almost 4 hours doing this.

The reason there are the 2 switches on the left only feeding the 4 switches was he wanted to keep balance in the switches, he did not want 1 switch to have 8 and another 1 to have 3 outputs connected. He wasn't sure if it would make a difference or not.

But what has me confused is why it works. I actually was thinking it wasn't going to work as he was doing this. The reason I said that was because of the use of powered splitters. I kept reading here on Tivo community only to use 1 port powered splitters. Well guys all 12 splitters here are powered on both ports. Can someone explain this to me.

BTW someone else asked how many LNB's I have. We have a 3 LNB system.

5 DVR's
8 std receivers.

The reason I have so many lines is some rooms have multiple drop locations, as the wife rearranges furniture quite often.

Does anyone know a easy way without disconnecting 1 coax at a time to trace out where each coax is goinmg (to which outlet) Something like a CT transformer around the coax at each outlet then having a tracer create tone when you touch that wire at the switch?


I know my fingers get sore real quick trying to untwist and retighten all those connectors.



As far as cost goes. You mean this isn't a standard install?..... :) LOL

I think the tech did a very nice job in his workmanship, I take pride in what I do and the old back board looked nice as well with tie wired bundles and nice wire bending, but I think he even left it better than the way he found it.

[JimSpence]

As long as he was consistant with what lines from the splitters go to what inputs on the multiswitches it should be fine. For example, the outputs of a splitter should both go to like labelled inputs on the switches. I think another reason to use both legs passive power splitters is that those switches are unpowered.

As for balancing the switches, that's all well and good, but he could just have used two switches and connected 6 lines on one and 5 on the other.

In that setup you have, can you at least trace a few of the lines to determine which one(s) will require a diplexer? A small wrench will help with the connectors.

And another thing to consider. I would label each output as to where it goes, so that if a switch fails you know which one it is. This could be another reason to reduce the compexity of the installation. ;)

And yes, the install does look very good.

[ebonovic]

Hey... For about $30ish or so, you can get a small device..

It is a small box (about the size of a cigarette box.
It has a RG-6 connectio on it...

On one end of the cable, you hook up a COLOR identifier (the kit comes with 4), hit a test button on the box (hooked up to the cable).

It will then tell you what color was on there...

It would help you a lot to identify which cable goes where...

[JimSpence]

You could also disconnect all lines at both ends and then short one at a time and then use an ohmmeter to find where it goes.

[staci]

Jim ,

I just updated the pics with better angles and as you can see, I have 2 diplexers now going to 2 different sets that I was able to identify.

You really think this is a complex setup?

Overall, Im very happy with the setup, It would have been nice to have OTA on whatever TV wanted it with just adding a diplexer at the reciever

S

[JimSpence]

As long as the setup is working and you get OTA to the TVs that need it, then leave it alone.

There's the old adage "If it ain't broke don't fix it!"

Now sit back and enjoy the New Year.

But, I do believe that it is overly complex.

[staci]

Jim,

My comment about complex was said tongue and cheek, I do believe there could have been a easier way, as was talked about earlier.

Thou were both still confused on the difference of single passing power splitters and all port passing power splitters. It seemed based on the discussion of last week in this thread and others that you always wanted to only use single port passing powered splitter.

Im not going to ask them to change these 6x8s out, as Im sure there is a valid reason to have 6x8s vs 5x8s. Also come to think about it, all of the 5x8s I've seen are powered. We don't need OTA at every TV, My goal is to find one other coax to hook up a diplexer there as well. We only use OTA when there is a storm coming and we lose signal or when there is snow on the dish. That happens about 6 times in the winter and about 6 times in the spring with storms.

I guess the 6x8s will be good if and when we ever go hi def. This existing setup leaves plenty of room for expansion.

Just thinking about if they would ever redo this set up if we moved, in the movers pack DTV offers :)

[JimSpence]

Well, with the rollout of the MPEG4 satellites by DirecTV and their use for HD locals, the Zinwell 6802 6x8 multiswitches won't work. The 6802 are used with the 72.5 and 95 satellites. The new AT9 5LNB dish uses a different 6x8 switch.

Maybe, by the time you move again the installers will have a better handle on how things work. In your case, they did quite well, considering the horror stories we are used to here on the forum.

[Want1394]

A few things to consider - (1) the first two switches are really being used as glorified splitters, which is ok, but they do degrade signal strength more than a good splitter would. (2) since all the switches are non-powered, that's quite a load on the receivers to power them - especially since some receivers may be disconnected at any given time. Maybe not a problem, but I'd sure want powered switches to drive the upstream switches and LNB's. (3) getting OTA through all those splitters is going to take some care since the signals are usually pretty weak. You may need a good amplifier (consider a x16-way amplifier instead of splitters) and you will still have a bunch of diplexers to drive (or switches that have the diplexer function built-in.)

[staci]

Want,


Is there a chart somewhere that shows how many recievers you need to drive xxx # of switchs or vice versa

Ken and Staci

[Want1394]

Not that I'm aware of. Each switch and LNB takes differing amounts of power, the cable loss depends on the gauge and length of the cable, and each brand (or type) of receiver has a different way of inserting power onto the coax. The switching spec for voltage (13 & 18) is pretty well spec'ed (about 13v+-1, similar with the 18v), but current capabilities to run switches and LNB's is less deterministic due to the variables. A typical switch (powered) is spec'ed at about 200-500mA at 24v, so that is using between 5 and 12w of power - but much of it is wasted to heat, I think.

[staci]

Ok,

The setup has been working great for about 10 days, now the last few days, were getting dropped sats on many recievers, or on the Tivo's, loseing 1 Sat.

I talked to the installer and he spoke to the wholesale house and they said they couldnt even see how it would work, as the switchs arent cascadable.

I confirmed that with Zinwell, and they said the samething.

Whats so odd thou is it does work 99% of the time.

Anyway he said her's coming back ouit and wants to replace the switchs with powered 4x8's, I suggested 5x8's but he said his company doesnt stock those, and can only use what the company stocks, unless I want to pay for the parts.

So what should I do, I have no idea if they stock any other 6x8's or not, but I definetly like not having all these switchs powered.

Ideas, advice

K and S

[ebonovic]

Staci...

Are you currently using the HD Locals? The MPEG-4 Stuff?

If not... I would simply change the first set of switches that are on the far left of your picture... the ones that are powering the DISH itself.

I would make ONE of those powered (using a single DC passing spliter).

What is probably happening... Is betwen all those switches, just enough voltage is getting lost it can make it through all of them.

As you have it setup right now... The voltage that comes from the boxes, has to power all those multiswitches AND the DISH LNB assembly.

I think you are getting just enough drop when you have a certain number of channels set the same way.

I think if you replace the first one (and probably only one will have to be changed).. with a a 4x8 switch... Power just the one... You should be good to go.

Then when someone finally create a powered 6x8... you will be all set, and just have to swap out the one.

[greywolf]

I talked to the installer and he spoke to the wholesale house and they said they couldnt even see how it would work, as the switchs arent cascadable. Oh! That level of knowledge is encouraging. Ask them how they can work with the built in multiswitch in the dish then.

[staci]

Well, Even Zinwell, says this wont work as their 6802 isnt cascadable... but it does work.

I would like to get the cleanest install without paying additional amounts. As far as HD, we dont have it yet, but we are considering that very soon. Would that mandate a new multiswitch.

I would like to get them to install switch's and equiptment where were not going to need to change something again in 6 months.

So what would as DTV installer have or should have that I can get him to install. As long as he has access to it, I dont think it will be a problem to install it..... As you can see by the pictures using 6-6x8s and all the other stuff

[ebonovic]

The newer 6x8 "HD" switches would not be needed until you are ready to get the new A9 5LNB dish, to access the two new SATS.

So going down to the 4x8 switch for now (For at least just the one switch) would work out okay.

[staci]

Well the work has all been re-done.

We ended up with 4 1x4s PP on 1 port only. These 16 outputs feed 4 powered 4x8's and we have 3 TV's with Dixplexers on both ends (switch end as well as reciever end)

All is well, not as impressive as before , but so far so good

[ebonovic]

Same installer?

You should take him/her out for dinner or something...

That is a TON of work... I would have to say 99.9% of the installers would not go through that much trouble.

Still impressive though.

[JimSpence]

Pictures, please .:)

[staci]

Geez,

All you guys want is pictures....... What kind of men are you anyway :) LOL


Soon

S

[staci]

Ok here are the pic guys, There are 4 of them , one of them taking from the right side, this gives you a feel for clearances and such.

S and K

http://www.ampsales.net/miscpics/dtvstr1.jpg [br]
http://www.ampsales.net/miscpics/dtvstr2.jpg [br]
http://www.ampsales.net/miscpics/dtvstr4.jpg [br]
http://www.ampsales.net/miscpics/dtvright1.jpg

[staci]

Anybody need any good deals on a crap load of dual Power passing 1x2s or a bunch of 6802's.

Our collection of multi splitters consits of

3-4x8s
6- 6802's
2- 3x8s

A ton of different PP splitters

[ebonovic]

Jim... the 6802's are not for the MPEG-4 feeds? Right?

[JimSpence]

Right! The AT9 dish needs to use the Zinwell WB68 switch in order to pass the larger bandwidth.

Lots of info on this SolidSignal page.
http://www.solidsignal.com/satellite/at9_install_videos.asp

Thanks staci for those photos.
That updated installation looks good.
It is still busy, but that is what's needed for your equipment.
It looks like you are diplexing your OTA onto two lines, right?

[staci]

Jim,

No actually 3 of them,

The 3 diplexers are located next to 1x4 up top, the second one is mounted on the backboard and the thrid is tiewrapped to a copper pipe behind the water filter, you should be able to see it from the right angle image.

Can you find them all?

Speaking to the installers 16 plus outputs are almost becoming a common thing now with larger homes and Home Theatere rooms, where thet mave 8 outputs just going to that room. He said there doing 2 - 8 way switches daily , and in excess of that # 2 times a month.

What does everyone think this install would cost with parts, remember they have done it twice now :)

K

[ebonovic]

Well just got my A9 installed today... Guess what...

6802 works perfectly with the MPEG-4 signals..
I wonder if WB68 is just a new model number

Edit: Problem that I was having turned out to be a bad multiswitch... The 110-Trans12 wasn't coming through... Replaced with another 6802... good to go.

[greywolf]

I couldn't for the life of me think of why it wouldn't. There is the 250-750MHz section to be added yet but it's just a passive switch after all. 5x multiswitches have built in diplexing so shouldn't allow that band. When the WB68 first came out, I posted some questions about what could be the problem with a 4x or 6x but never really got an answer. Thanks for the report.

[JimSpence]

I missed the one above the 1x4 splitter for the OTA.

So, everything is working fine for you?

[Tivo_Pilot]

I bought a bestway 5 x 16 cascadeable multi-switch and couldn't be happier. $299.95.
bestwaysatellite.com

[extension 721]

Is this a recent install?
Is your triple LNB assemble one solid piece (on the bottom piece) or is it three seperate ones... Basically can you take one of them out with leaving the other two in place.

If it is one solid unit, then you should have no problems using the splitter method.

Else you could use the 2nd method.
Pickup two 4x8 or 5x8's... Take the first 4 outputs from your current switch.. Feed it to New Switch 1; Take the last 4 outputs from your current switch.. Feed ito New Switch 2;... 16 outputs.

No question is stupid, stupid is trying something with getting all the info first.

Actually, as long as you match the inputs, there is no problem.

(on the newer dishes, a cable is a cable, but on the older ones, mixing them up will mess them up)

The combined sat B and C goes into "18V-22khz" The other sat B goes into "13V-22khz"

The other two (sat A-101) go to the 18v and 13v.

[JimSpence]

You do realize that you replied to a one year old thread?

[drew2k]

You do realize that you replied to a one year old thread?But aren't you more amazed and impressed that he had to have searched for the thread to even post in it? I am! :up:

[JimSpence]

Yes, I am impressed. Good job extension 721. :)

[Rodney]

This thread coming up is just at the right time for me! Thanks extension 721 for resurrecting it!

Get FOUR 2way splitters that pass the DC on one leg only

Forgive me if I am being ignorant, but how can you tell if the splitter passes DC on one leg only or not? The description for the splitters aren't clear to me. I just want to be sure I purchase the right ones.

Thanks in advance,

[old7]

This thread coming up is just at the right time for me! Thanks extension 721 for resurrecting it!



Forgive me if I am being ignorant, but how can you tell if the splitter passes DC on one leg only or not? The description for the splitters aren't clear to me. I just want to be sure I purchase the right ones.

Thanks in advance,

They should be labeled as such. Most will indicate "1 port DC pass" or "single leg DC pass" or simular variation. There are some that don't pass any DC and there are some that pass all DC.

There are applications for no pass, single pass and all pass splitters. Most likely if it is not labeled the splitter is no DC pass. If your application requires a specific type and if the splitter is not labeled, DON'T ASSUME anything.

[Jonathan_S]

Sometimes splitters that only pass DC on one leg have all the non-DC pass legs indicated with the standard symbol for a diode, arrow towards the output leg. That shows that DC signals are blocked from returning from the output leg to the input leg.

(Diode symbol http://www.elexp.com/tips/diod-sym.gif)

[rbtravis]

Really Big multiswitch

http://cgi.ebay.com/5-x-16-Satellite-Multiswitch-16-way-22Khz-Multi-switch_W0QQitemZ230087589070QQihZ013QQcategoryZ67880QQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem

[old7]

How about this.

http://www.techtoolsupply.com/ProductImages/distribution/tsat520.jpg

http://www.sonoradesign.com/dtvsystemspages/images/spec_tsat520.gif