transfer then burn to DVD w/Pioneer TiVo DVD-R

[ChromeAce]

Has anyone been able to transfer a recording from one TiVo to another and the burn to DVD?

I have a Pioneer 810 & a Pioneer 57. I transferred a show from the 810 to the 57 and tried to burn it to DVD. Got the "incompatible video formats" message. Re-read the manual, which clearly says I can't burn shows transferred from DVRs that aren't similar. Uhmm, wouldn't these 2 models qualify as being similar? They're both Pioneer TiVos with DVD burning.

Anyway, I figured out the 57 is a huge waste of money considering I can get 3x the capacity with a custom unit from Weaknees... so I bought a 2nd 810 with 300 hours for the same price as my new 57 with 100 hours, which goes back to Ultimate Electronics.

Any bets on whether a show transferred between two 810s will burn to DVD? Surely this isn't an issue of a copy protection flag. DirecTV isn't using those yet are they? And they shouldn't travel through an s.video signal, should it?

I love the Pioneer TiVos with DVD burning, mostly due to the way it easily and simply burns your recordings onto a DVD, complete with TiVo menus and show data. Pop the DVD in your laptop and it's just like you have a TiVo with you on the plane.

Sure, I wish I could edit the recordings, but for show archiving and portability, it's simple and effective.

This HMO burn issue is a little disturbing, though.

[bedelman]

If you can get the transfers to work between two 810's, you kind of can do heads and tails editing. The transfer can be set to start from a pause point (which will remove the head). You can also cancel a transfer in progress (which will remove the tail).

I think you're the first person with two of the DVD-R units and HMO who has tried a transfer.

[ChromeAce]

Originally posted by bedelman
If you can get the transfers to work between two 810's, you kind of can do heads and tails editing. The transfer can be set to start from a pause point (which will remove the head). You can also cancel a transfer in progress (which will remove the tail).


Did you come up with that one on your own or did you read my recent post in DVD Recorders? ;)

[bedelman]

I came up with that one several months ago (like November) when I thought it would be possible to do so with a Series 2. I figured out that as long as the program originated on a Pioneer, it should be possible. However, it was found out that you can't do this.

Either the block on HMO transfers is universal (as you might find out) or it's not really a check of the format -- if it comes from a Series 2, it's no good -- even though it's encoded properly.

[ChromeAce]

I now own two Pioneer DVD-R TiVos, both 810s. Sadly, a show recorded on one and transferred to another is NOT burnable despite the fact the manual says it only can't be done on dissimilar models. A software patch could probably fix it if they want to.

As for me, the ultimate combination remains:

1. Hughes HDTV DirecTiVo

for recording no-loss HD content & SD Dolby Digital content from satellite and antennae sources, quad tuner, Dolby Digital 5.1 -- not compatible with TiVo Home Media Option, thus no digital way to get shows out of it legally

2. Pioneer 810 DVD-RW TiVo

for quick & easy transfer of shows recorded off cable & satellite from its built-in TiVo onto a DVD complete with TiVo menus and program information... dubs way faster than realtime... however no editing available & shows transferred from another DVR cannot be burned... you can put your own content in the Now Playing list only via its composite input, no DV input... get the 300-hour version from weaknees.com... record shows on it that aren't in HD, aren't in Dolby Digital, and don't need to be edited prior to archiving to DVD... namely... THE SCREEN SAVERS... you can fit 6 episodes on 1 DVD to fill the time for your flight to Hawaii

3. Pioneer 510 DVD-RW

dub shows to it from the Hughes HD DirecTiVo which are worth archiving and editing, resulting in a high quality Dolby Digital 2.0 DVD which can be imported and further manipulated on a computer... use to archive shows onto DVD which have been transferred to the Pioneer DVD-RW TiVo via Home Media Option (since that unit can't burn those shows)... also use to import and edit DV camcorder footage for burning to DVD for projects which don't require comprehensive non-linear computer editing, like family vacations... since it doesn't have TiVo, don't use it to record any TV directly as there's no easy way to control a satellite box or set up automatic recordings (a show recorded manually thru its s.video input from a satellite box will look identical to a dub from a recording on the HD DirecTiVo as the content has been uncompressed once in both cases, unlike a show dubbed via s.video in from another TiVo which by then has been compressed/decompressed twice)... another option is to use a DV VCR to record shows to DV and then transfer them lossless via FireWire to this unit... you can get a Sony DHR1000 DV VCR on Ebay for $1000, but again, the signal is decompressed out of the satellite box, recompressed by DV, and recompressed by the DVD encoder, so probably not a good idea

4. TiVo-branded stand-alone Series 2

for TVs throught the rest of the house, all enabled with Home Media Option so that you can watch shows any of the others record, including the Pioneer DVD-RW TiVo... but NOT the Hughes HD DirecTiVo... but you wouldn't want to anyway because those shows are HD and/or Dolby Digital and you certainly don't have the cash for HD and/or 5.1 sound in every room... nor would you really want it necessarily (my bathroom Series 2 is great for Larry King but I wouldn't wanna watch Enterprise in there... too much echo)

[ChromeAce]

I called Pioneer about the burn to DVD after transfer issue. Their manual says 2 different things. In one place it says you can't burn after a transfer from an INCOMPATIBLE DVR. In another place it says you can't burn after transfer period. They referred me to TiVo.

After being on hold with TiVo support for 45 minutes, and finally getting to a level 2 rep, he was very rude and argumentative about the wording of the TiVo error message you get when trying to burn a transferred show.

He says you can't burn after transfer because it "would be illegal". I pointed out I can burn it on the original DVR and both are in the same house so what's the point? I also pointed out TiVo 2 Go will allow it on a PC. He said "that's different, it's a PC".

Clearly this guy is an idiot. But even worse, he has serious attitude problems. He refused to acknowledge that the wording of this statement is confusing:

THIS PROGRAM CANNOT BE COPIED TO DVD BECAUSE IT WAS TRANSFERRED FROM A DVR WITH INCOMPATIBLE AUDIO AND VIDEO FORMATS.

Since no show transferred can be burned, no matter what unit it is from, the message should say:

THIS PROGRAM CANNOT BE COPIED TO DVD BECAUSE IT WAS TRANSFERRED FROM ANOTHER DVR.

By adding the fact that it can't be transferred because the DVR is INCOMPATIBLE implies there is one that IS compatible.

Does anyone else understand this point but me?

And wasn't it reasonable for me to assume that if I went out and bought a 2nd identical Pioneer 810 I should be able to burn transferred shows?

So the agent still insisted the wording was "perfectly clear" and didn't see any problem with it and that the wording would not be changed, further pissing me off.

I wasn't even asking for a refund on the 2nd unit. Just an admission that it was worded wrong! And all I got was attitude!

[bedelman]

I agree completely with you. You didn't happen to catch the name of the agent did you? If you did, I'd suggest you send a PM to TiVoBill with this information.

I'm involved with an outsourced tech support group here at work and there is absolutely no excuse for making a customer feel like you were made to feel.

Also, it's a big deal that these programs cannot be burned in my opinion. It would appear that the software took the "easy" way out. Rather than really checking the format of the file, it's a generic block against anything which didn't originate on the unit itself.

[Bigg]

Originally posted by SonyPlanet
my bathroom Series 2 :D LOL :D

[ChromeAce]

Cody, case #1690541, level 2 support. Oh yeah, and he hung up on me.

I've had about 15 different TiVos since 1999; I've gotta be one of their best customers.

Oh, yeah, and how horrible is that automated voice recognition system? It's the true meaning of hell on my handset.

[bedelman]

Originally posted by SonyPlanet
Cody, case #1690541, level 2 support. Oh yeah, and he hung up on me.

I've had about 15 different TiVos since 1999; I've gotta be one of their best customers.

Oh, yeah, and how horrible is that automated voice recognition system? It's the true meaning of hell on my handset. You should send this and some of the background in a PM to TiVoBill. If he's anything like me in dealing with interactions between the customer service folks and customers, he'd want to know about a case like this.

[ChromeAce]

I sent it to him. Thanks.

In the meantime, I'm working on a way around the transfer then burn block on TiVo's HMO. I'm thinking of modifying a Roomba (robotic vaccuum cleaner) to get the burned disc out of the living room DVD-R TiVo and bringing it to the bedroom DVD-R TiVo. I'm hesitant, though, because Cody would accuse me of breaking the law.

[bedelman]

I get around the limitation when coming from a Series 2 by using the Record from VCR/Camera option. Here's the way I have my Pioneer wired which allows me to feed the Pioneer using either VCR or the feed from a Series 2.
http://homepage.mac.com/bedelman/Wiring.jpg

[ChromeAce]

Originally posted by bedelman
I get around the limitation when coming from a Series 2 by using the Record from VCR/Camera option.

Well, sure, if you want to exit the digital domain and put up with signal degradation! Unfortunately, what happens with that route is horrifying-- your sat receiver decompresses the video to s.video, your TiVo recompresses it & stores it on the hard drive, you transfer that over the network and play it back throught the composite out decompression, then the Pioneer burner recompresses the composite signal to put it on the hard drive, and finally the DVD burner software recompresses yet again to put it into MPEG2 format for burning on the DVD. Wow.

[bedelman]

Originally posted by SonyPlanet
Well, sure, if you want to exit the digital domain and put up with signal degradation! Unfortunately, what happens with that route is horrifying-- your sat receiver decompresses the video to s.video, your TiVo recompresses it & stores it on the hard drive, you transfer that over the network and play it back throught the composite out decompression, then the Pioneer burner recompresses the composite signal to put it on the hard drive, and finally the DVD burner software recompresses yet again to put it into MPEG2 format for burning on the DVD. Wow. No satellite receiver here, but you're right about all the compression and stuff going on -- but it works for those cases where there's nothing else to be done. Some signal degradation is better than a blank screen.

BTW -- Keep us posted if you hear anything back from TiVo

[Bigg]

:D LOL :D

[dugbug]

Interesting thread. Any updates sonyplanet?

[dirtypacman]

I was hoping to add a second tivo to my bedroom and network with my current 810H. This i take it means I cannot take recorded shows off my bedroom tivo and burn to my 810H or am i missing something?

[ChromeAce]

Originally posted by dirtypacman
I was hoping to add a second tivo to my bedroom and network with my current 810H. This i take it means I cannot take recorded shows off my bedroom tivo and burn to my 810H or am i missing something?

You're correct. Transferred shows are not burnable. TiVo needs to figure out this will cost them sales and customers who assume it will work, as the manual and the TiVo OS implies if you have 2 Pioneer TiVo burners.

I suppose they're pretty scared about someone hacking the OS to allow transfer to other TiVos on the Internet, who could then burn DVDs. Overnight, TiVo could become the layman's Kazaa for pirating content, opening them up to MPAA lawsuits. This is all just guessing on my part.

[manielse]

Ok, I'm gonna reopen this topic because I wanted to respond to SonyPlanet's comments.

1) HMO only allows you to transfer to other TiVo's registered on your account so the Kazaa idea should not be a major concern as long as that piece of HMO stays in tact.

2) Tivo2Go will be out shortly which makes this topic even more frustrating to me. I can burn programs onto a PC but not another TiVo DVD-R? WTF?

3) The TiVo can be hacked today to transfer programs through FTP to a computer and then be distributed over the Internet in unecrypted format. This of course is against TiVo's wishes but technically it can be done.

So that leads me to once again ask why this can't be done in HMO? This is clearly not a format issue, it's a flaw/protection feature in HMO. There must be some type of Tag information being sent with the transfer that "copy protects" the show but is it really needed with Tivo2Go coming shortly?

[C Turner Joy]

Well, I'm glad that someone finally posted on this topic. So glad that it caused me to register after lurking for more than a year.

That said, I have been wondering what the issue was with not being able to copy from my Series 2 and then burn from my Pioneer. It was the sole reason that I bought my 810H. I assumed that since MVR allowed you to copy from one unit to another that you could then burn to disc. Well and truly bummed when I found that wasn't the case.

I called Tivo. They punted me to Pioneer Tivo tech support. I got a hugely rude woman on the phone that acted like I was bothering her by asking something so obviously stupid as to why I couldn't do this. Frustrating.

Then I sent an email to Tivo tech support. They were polite in their response. But not terribly helpful. I hope it doesn't violate any rules of etiquette if I post their reply here. Not that it is helpful, but here it is:

"Currently, the burning of programs transferred from another TiVo DVR is not supported. Unfortunately, I do not have an estimated time as to when this action will be supported. However, I have submitted your inquiry as a TiVo feature enhancement request. We log all suggestions that we receive as TiVo feature enhancement requests, and submit them to our Research and Development Team for consideration. You may also use the link below to log any additional feature requests."

I am no wiser to the reason why. I agree with most everyone else here in why this makes no sense, especially in light of Tivo2Go. Here's to hoping Tivo sees this from our point of view and sorts this out.

[ChromeAce]

Originally posted by manielse
Ok, I'm gonna reopen this topic because I wanted to respond to SonyPlanet's comments.

1) HMO only allows you to transfer to other TiVo's registered on your account so the Kazaa idea should not be a major concern as long as that piece of HMO stays in tact.

2) Tivo2Go will be out shortly which makes this topic even more frustrating to me. I can burn programs onto a PC but not another TiVo DVD-R? WTF?

3) The TiVo can be hacked today to transfer programs through FTP to a computer and then be distributed over the Internet in unecrypted format. This of course is against TiVo's wishes but technically it can be done.

So that leads me to once again ask why this can't be done in HMO? This is clearly not a format issue, it's a flaw/protection feature in HMO. There must be some type of Tag information being sent with the transfer that "copy protects" the show but is it really needed with Tivo2Go coming shortly?

1. As I said, I believe TiVo is concerned about "hacks" which are unauthorized software modifications. There are already hacks that allow TiVo to TiVo show transfer without HMO over the Internet.

2. TiVo2Go uses encryption and a hardware key. Without the hardware key (which you can only have one of), the files are unplayable. That makes transferring them to someone else useless as they won't have the hardware key.

3. That's a hack. Hacks basically keep TiVo off the hook as long as they make it reasonably difficult to accomplish. If they allowed burning after transfer via HMO, that would not be a hack. It would be encouragement to transfer, burn, and share. Burning and sharing is enough for them, apparently. Add transfer to the mix and the guys in ties start to get nervous.

[ellinj]

Originally posted by SonyPlanet


2. TiVo2Go uses encryption and a hardware key. Without the hardware key (which you can only have one of), the files are unplayable. That makes transferring them to someone else useless as they won't have the hardware key.


hardware keys are no longer going to be required for TivoToGo.

[manielse]

Ok if no hardware key is required for Tivo2Go, that means Tivo will decrypt the unique hardware identifier with the Tivo2Go software on the PC (trying to stay as vague as possible).

Why can't they do the same function on the Pioneers units then? The answer is they can but wil they, this is where politics come into play. Once Tivo2Go comes out, the sales of Pioneer models will suffer unless they can make things easier for the consumer. If Tivo wants to remain a strong partner with Pioneer, they'll fix this issue. If they want more direct sales, they won't fix the issue.

Personally, I have no interest into transferring programs to my PC when I have a simple interface on one of my Tivo units.

BTW, welcome "C Turner Joy" to coming out of the shadows. I'm hoping that enough noise about this will cause them to fix this.

[ellinj]

Once Tivo2Go comes out I will most likely dump the pioneer if it still can't record transferred shows.

[C Turner Joy]

BTW, welcome "C Turner Joy" to coming out of the shadows. I'm hoping that enough noise about this will cause them to fix this.

Thanks. That's kind of you.

I've been wondering about the details of Tivo2Go. At first I heard dongles. Now that seems to be changed to no dongles. If no dongles, just some sort of software encryption, then is it that you can only play the burned DVD on the machine (PC or otherwise) on which it was burned? Or is it more like the DVD will be "locked" so that it cannot be copied to another DVD? I'd prefer the latter by a wide margin.

I'm not interested in starting my own DVD bootleg business. But there are things that I would like to burn to DVD, movies and such, that I would like to be able to play on any DVD player that I own. And more to the point, any DVD player that I may own in the future (given that it is compatible with today's format).

Anyone have an idea of the direction they are going with this?

I have to agree with ellinj. If they don't give me the ability to burn to my Pioneer after transferring from another Tivo it isn't of much use to me. I'm already unthrilled with the picture quality in anything but Fine mode. Two discs for one two hour movie isn't ideal.

[Tivortex]

Originally posted by C Turner Joy
I'm already unthrilled with the picture quality in anything but Fine mode. Two discs for one two hour movie isn't ideal.
Those are the 2 issues I care A LOT more about on the 810 than burning transfered material.
I'm already completely sick of owning an intentionally crippled machine.

[C Turner Joy]

Tivortex said:

"Those are the 2 issues I care A LOT more about on the 810 than burning transfered material.

I'm already completely sick of owning an intentionally crippled machine."


Amen! I was hoping that being able to transfer Best quality from my Tivo 2 to the Pioneer I would be able to burn movies in that acceptable quality.

[zirzlo]

Grrrr!!! Oh, hello everyone....Grrrrrr!!!

I just purchased an 810 and finished setting it up only to find out that I can't burn transferred shows. I was hoping I would find some encouraging info here, but it looks like it is just no go! Well, I guess I'll wait for a little while, but I'll probably return it now.

Grrrr....

[ChromeAce]

Originally posted by bedelman
You should send this and some of the background in a PM to TiVoBill. If he's anything like me in dealing with interactions between the customer service folks and customers, he'd want to know about a case like this.

Just to update everyone, I never got a response from TiVoBill or anyone else on this matter.

[martinp13]

I was ready to go get an 810 to add to my network, and you guys successfully burst my UMF bubble. :( That has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. I can transfer shows between two machines, but can't transfer it off to DVD? What's the difference between TiVo->DVD and TiVo->TiVo->DVD, especially when the TiVo-to-TiVo link is HMO-protected. Yes, I know it's not perfect, but it should be good enough to keep the casual user from breaking any rules.

They're losing an 810 sale due to this. :(

[martinp13]

Originally posted by SonyPlanet
Just to update everyone, I never got a response from TiVoBill or anyone else on this matter.
You might send it again... sometimes he gets a flurry of PMs and might miss yours.

[ellinj]

Originally posted by martinp13
I was ready to go get an 810 to add to my network, and you guys successfully burst my UMF bubble. :( That has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. I can transfer shows between two machines, but can't transfer it off to DVD? What's the difference between TiVo->DVD and TiVo->TiVo->DVD, especially when the TiVo-to-TiVo link is HMO-protected. Yes, I know it's not perfect, but it should be good enough to keep the casual user from breaking any rules.

They're losing an 810 sale due to this. :(


They say it is because regular series 2 units record in a differnent resolution and bitrate then models with a dvd recorder. I could buy this to some extent but it doesn't explain why an 810->810 transfer won't burn. I am personally going to dump my 810 once Tivo2Go comes out.

[MikeEvangelist]

I was so excited to finally get my 810, and crushed by its limitations:

- the one discussed in this thread being the most annoying

- Having to record programs longer than two hours in four-hour mode in order to fit them on one disc. The four-hour mode encoding is truly awful.

- Machine unusable for anything else while recording from external input

- Even in two-hour mode, I'd see many more blocking artifacts and 'stuttering' than on my other TiVos.

So back it went. I bought a Pioneer 310, which so far is doing a great job. And even though it means everything has to be re-encoded, the discs look much better than they did coming out of the 810.

Mike

[fast800]

It's a year later and this is still an issue, terrible. Has there been any progress on this?

[danieljanderson]

I'm guessing that the signal must be encoded a certain way in order to be transferred. And that's where the incompatibility happens. Our PC's must have a little more capability when it comes to handling this and that's why we can burn there.

[masmith]

I now own two Pioneer DVD-R TiVos, both 810s. Sadly, a show recorded on one and transferred to another is NOT burnable despite the fact the manual says it only can't be done on dissimilar models. A software patch could probably fix it if they want to.

As for me, the ultimate combination remains:

1. Hughes HDTV DirecTiVo

for recording no-loss HD content & SD Dolby Digital content from satellite and antennae sources, quad tuner, Dolby Digital 5.1 -- not compatible with TiVo Home Media Option, thus no digital way to get shows out of it legally

2. Pioneer 810 DVD-RW TiVo

for quick & easy transfer of shows recorded off cable & satellite from its built-in TiVo onto a DVD complete with TiVo menus and program information... dubs way faster than realtime... however no editing available & shows transferred from another DVR cannot be burned... you can put your own content in the Now Playing list only via its composite input, no DV input... get the 300-hour version from weaknees.com... record shows on it that aren't in HD, aren't in Dolby Digital, and don't need to be edited prior to archiving to DVD... namely... THE SCREEN SAVERS... you can fit 6 episodes on 1 DVD to fill the time for your flight to Hawaii


I have the pioneer, and the HD-DVR, I want to connect them, and I want the Pioneer to be able to record from the satellite so I can place shows on DVD. How can I do that?? Please help me since you have experience with both.

[sweetspirit]

[QUOTE=SonyPlanet]I called Pioneer about the burn to DVD after transfer issue. Their manual says 2 different things. In one place it says you can't burn after a transfer from an INCOMPATIBLE DVR. In another place it says you can't burn after transfer period.

This thread - from awhile ago - was all I could find that was close to the problem I've encountered. I transferred shows from my Pioneer 810 to my PC because I'd temporarily run out of media for recording. After getting some discs, I transferred the shows back TO THE SAME EXACT DVR and got the same message you did:

THIS PROGRAM CANNOT BE COPIED TO DVD BECAUSE IT WAS TRANSFERRED FROM A DVR WITH INCOMPATIBLE AUDIO AND VIDEO FORMATS.

What's worse - I can't transfer the shows BACK to the PC either!

Can anyone help me? From past experience, I know I won't get help from either Pioneer OR TIVO. :mad:

[Sir_Jeeves]

Just for the record:

I've never had problems with this as the Pioneer has also saved/encoded the content in a format for playing on a DVD. I've transferred content to my PC that was recorded PRIOR to the Tivo2Go, then back, and burned on Pioneer without problems.
-Mike