** HD TiVo and HD DirecTV TiVo FAQ **

[feldon23]

UPDATED: December 19, 2011

http://feldoncentral.com/TiVo/HDFAQ_DirecTV.gif
DirecTV HDTV HR10-250 TiVo -- April 21st, 2004

http://feldoncentral.com/TiVo/HDFAQ_DTiVo.jpg (http://www.cesweb.org/shared_files/innovations/innovations_2004/2787/mainphoto2787.jpg) Back of HDTiVo (http://feldoncentral.com/TiVo/hdtivoDTVback.jpg)

In April 2004, DirecTV launched the DirecTV HR10-250 DirecTV with TiVo with 250GB capacity offering ~30 hours of high definition, ~200 hours of standard definition recording, or any combination of the two. *Actual recording time will vary depending on the type of programming being recorded. [Press Release...] (http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/aboutus/headline.dsp?id=12_18_2003A)
[ Specifications Front ] (http://feldoncentral.com/TiVo/HDTivo_Flyer2a.jpg) [ Specifications Back ] (http://feldoncentral.com/TiVo/HDTivo_Flyer1a.jpg)

DirecTV HR10-250 TiVos contain 2 DirecTV SD/HD and Over-the-Air tuners (a total of 3 coax inputs) which can receive/record standard definition and MPEG-2 high definition programming from DirecTV as well as the unique capability to record local digital/HDTV broadcasts brought in by an antenna.

DirecTV HR10-250 TiVos were introduced with an MSRP of $999, and have been out-of-production for many years now as DirecTV switched to a leasing model in 2006. Sometimes these units can be found on eBay.


What is the future of the DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo?

The original DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo must now be viewed as a legacy device as it can only record and view the small amount of remaining MPEG-2 DirecTV programming. DirecTV now has over 100 national channels, plus the top ~50 local TV markets all presented in MPEG-4 HDTV which cannot be recorded on an HR10-250.

After the 2003 acquisition of DirecTV by Rupert Murdoch, DirecTV announced the dissolution of their partnership with TiVo and introduced their own competing DVRs developed by Murdoch's partner company NDS. The NDS-designed standard definition DirecTV DVR was released in October 2005 and the High Definition NDS DVR followed in 2006. In light of this news, TiVo invested heavily in CableCard-powered TiVos that work with all digital cable systems, as well as putting TiVo software on existing Comcast hardware. During this interim of five years, the DirecTV HR HDTV DVR models (which are not TiVo-powered) caught up with the functionality (if not the ease of user interface) of the TiVo platform.

In 2009, DirecTV renewed their partnership with TiVo and now, in 2011, have introduced a new combined TiVo® HD DirecTV product called the THR22-100. This new TiVo, which is running on the HR22-100 NDS hardware platform, became available (http://forums.directv.com/pe/action/forums/displaypost?postID=10979789) to customers on December 8, 2011 in selected markets for $199 with 2 year contract, and is expected to go nationwide in 2012. The new unit lacks many of the new features introduced to the TiVo platform over the last 5 years including Home Media Sharing, Youtube, Netflix, Multi Room Viewing, etc.



What ports and cables does the DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo include?

DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo ports include two USB2.0 ports (reserved for future use), 1 Component (RGB) video output, 1 HDMI output, 1 S-Video output, 1 Composite video output, 1 Stereo audio output, 1 SPD/IF Optical output, and 1 Modem jack.

The High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) connector with High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) is the only digital video output on the HD TiVo. High Definition component video is also offered. An HDMI cable is included, as is a DVI-to-HDMI adapter.

NOTE: HDTVs with HDMI or DVI ports that lack HDCP chips may blank out the picture through the HDMI port during certain PPV and sports programming at the broadcaster's discretion.



What output formats/resizing does this DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo support?

The DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo always displays programming at the selected output resolution. If the TiVo is set to output 1080i, then 720p shows (from ABC or ESPN) will be converted to 1080i prior to display. If you wish, and your HDTV does a better job natively displaying 720p, then you may change the output resolution to 720p when watching 720p material (there is, unfortunately, no on-screen indication of the source material's format).

Formats: You can change the output format the TiVo is using through a Setup menu or by simply pressing the UP arrow on the remote while watching a program. The output resolutions the TiVo will toggle between are 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and all programs will then be converted to that format. There is no "native" mode where the output format is automatically switched to match the source material.

S-Video/Composite: DirecTV HR10-250 TiVos can only display a standard definition picture (over S-Video or Composite video outputs) if the TiVo is set to 480i display. DirecTV HD TiVos WILL NOT output a composite (S-Video/yellow RCA) signal simultaneously with an HD signal (Downconversion).

Stretching: DirecTV HR10-250 TiVos have Stretch Modes allowing you to display 16:9 or 4:3 material stretched to fit 16:9 Widescreen HDTVs or 4:3 digital TVs. There are no zoom/crop/justify (aka "coke bottle") modes.


Will the DirecTV HR10-250 TiVo support Home Media Option and Networking?

DirecTV HR10-250 TiVos run a variant of the same 3.1 software seen on the 2004 DirecTV standard definition TiVos. Neither version 4.0 of the software nor Home Media Option networked media features were ever released.


What hardware do I need from DirecTV?

Most DirecTV customers have a round dish with a single dual LNBF 'head'. This enables them to receive programming from DirecTV's main satellite positioned at the 101 degrees.

HDTV, Spanish, and Chinese programming all require an elliptical (oval) dish with at least 3 LNBF 'heads'. This adds the ability to receive programming from DirecTV's three MPEG-2 satellites at 101, 110, and 119 degrees. Older DirecTV elliptical dishes come with 2 LNBFs 'heads' (101 and 119) and a space in between. A 'Sat C Kit' will give your older dish the ability to see 110.

Phase III DirecTV elliptical dishes have the circuitry necessary to receive all 3 satellites sealed inside the 'arm' of the dish. DirecTV enthusiasts have also been known to use 3 separate round dishes, each pointed at 101, 110, and 119 degree positions!

You can also use the new 5LNB Ka/Ku 'superdish' from DirecTV with the HR10-250 HD TiVo, but you will not be able to record any high definition channels which are in MPEG-4 format (local-into-local channels and nearly the entire lineup of HDTV programming on DirecTV).

DirecTV HDTV programming at 110 (http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/directvusa110.shtml):
ESPN HD, ESPN2 HD, Discovery HD, HDNet Movies, Showtime HD

DirecTV HDTV programming at 119 (http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/directvusa119.shtml):
HDNet, HBO HD, HD Pay-per-view


http://feldoncentral.com/TiVo/dishtypes.jpg

All elliptical dishes either have a 4x4 multiswitch bolted onto the back of the dish (101/119), or integrated into the arm of the dish (Phase III).

The FOUR wires that come out of the dish are all "switched" outputs which means that any of the 4 wires can see either side of any of the 3 satellites.

This is why you cannot use a splitter, because signal tones and voltages are sent up the wire FROM the DirecTV receiver TO the dish (or multiswitch) asking for the satellite feed they need to display the requested channel.

To take full advantage of a DirecTV with TiVo or DirecTV HD TiVo receiver/recorder, you must have TWO wires from the dish/multiswitch connected to them. Ordinary DirecTV receivers each require ONE wire from the dish/multiswitch.


All rooms wired for HD (http://feldoncentral.com/TiVo/direcTVmultiswitchHDTiVo.gif) (future proof)
Using a cascading 4x8 multiswitch to provide 8 outputs which can see all 3 satellites (101/110/119).


What DirecTV HDTV packages are available?

http://feldoncentral.com/TiVo/HDFAQ_Logos.gif

DirecTV now offers well over 100 national HDTV channels, as well as HDTV local-into-local channels, all of which require either a DirecTV HR20, 21, 22 or other NDS-designed DVR (further discussion of these models can be found at DBSTalk.com) or the newly introduced DirecTV THR22 TiVo that supports the new MPEG-4 HDTV signals available from DirecTV.

The HR10-250 can only record MPEG-2 HDTV channels, including HBO HD, Showtime HD, ESPN HD, Discovery HD, HDNet, HDNet Movies, and NFL Sunday Ticket Superfan HDTV, NBA HDTV, Pay Per View, New York and Los Angeles versions of ABC, NBC, CBS, and PBS, and finally Spice TV. These channels may transition to MPEG-4 at any time as bandwidth is needed on DirecTV satellites.

[feldon23]

UPDATED: January 3, 2012

What is HDTV?

High Definition TeleVision (HDTV) is the first major improvement to broadcast television since the introduction of color in the 1950's. HDTV is part of a larger broadcast standard referred to as ATSC (the American Television Systems Committee) which contains 18 different formats/qualities/resolutions.


What hardware do I need to watch Local channels in High Definition?

ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, WB, UPN, and Fox stations in all markets are now broadcasting digitally.

In order to receive digital local broadcasts in your home, you will need an antenna or receive them from your cable or satellite company. Antennas which can pickup HDTV signals range from rabbit ears to medium or large YAGI-type (arrow-shaped) antennas to medium or large grille-type antennas with bowtie shapes attached to them. If you are within 30 miles of a full-power digital transmitter, rabbit ears or a small grille-type antenna should provide acceptable reception.

A very useful website for determining what antenna you will need is AntennaWeb.org (http://www.antennaweb.org/). By entering your ZIP code, you will find out which stations are with ~100 miles of you, sorted by proximity and labeled with the strength of antenna you will need.

It is beyond the scope of this document to provide a complete list of recommended antennas, but you should consider:
Zenith Silver Sensor (http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/product_Display.asp?cat=49&id=131) (rabbit ears with surprising reception ability)
Radio Shack grille/bowtie-type (aka the Objet d'Art) (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&attachmentid=983)
Square Shooter wafer-style pole-mounted antennas
Channel Master YAGIs available from 80 to 150 inches and beyond
Channel Master grille-type antennas such as the 4228
Televes antennas (various types)
Winegard antennas (various types)

and seriously avoid:
Terk antennas especially their dish clip-on type and Terk TV55 HDTV antenna.
Jensen antennas (various types)
These antennas have yielded worse performance than a $10 pair of rabbit ears.


What kind of HDTV reception can I get where I live?

Please visit the AVS HDTV Local Reception Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=45).


What are the different HDTV formats? What's the difference between 720p and 1080i?

The 4 most commonly encountered digital TV formats in the US are 480i, which approximates standard (NTSC) TV, 480p, which is a DVD-like format with the same resolution (720x480) and aspect (16:9) as DVD, 720p (used by ABC, Fox, and ESPN), and 1080i (used by everyone else). More details:

1080i aka 'High Definition' 1920 x 1080 resolution (16:9 ratio)
~4 times NTSC quality
30 frames per second (interlaced)
Used by NBC, CBS, PBS, CW, HBO, Showtime, Starz, HDNet, Discovery, etc.720p aka 'High Definition' 1280 x 720 progressive (16:9 ratio)
~4 times NTSC quality
60 frames per second (progressive)
Used by ABC, Disney, ESPN, and Fox
480p aka 'Enhanced Definition' or EDTV 704 x 480 progressive (16:9 ratio)
DVD resolution
~2 times NTSC quality
60 frames per second (progressive)480i aka 'Standard Definition' or SDTV 720 x 480 interlaced (4:3 ratio)
NTSC quality
30 frames per second (interlaced)
NTSC (standard definition)

ATSC streams (which may include one or more subchannels in 1080i, 720p, 480p, or 480i qualities) use a total of 6MHz or 26.2Mbps of bandwidth. An HDTV resolution picture (either 1080i or 720p) require 6 times the bandwidth of a Standard Definition channel. Many content providers such as DirecTV and local affiliates of broadcast networks re-compress HDTV signals, sometimes to conserve bandwidth, sometimes to make room for a Standard Definition subchannel. This has created a lot of controversy which we will not go into here.

What sound quality improvement does digital TV bring?

ATSC/HDTV also includes significant improvements in sound transmission standards. 1080i, 720p, and 480p all specify Dolby Digital (AC-3) as the official standard for broadcast audio. The Dolby Digital soundtrack included in each broadcast may contain anywhere from 1 to 6 channels of surround sound digital audio which can be heard by connecting an Optical cable to a home theater system. Stereo downconversion is available on all HDTV-receiving equipment as well, through the standard RCA connections.


What HDTV programming is available?

Virtually all modern programming in America is now available in High Definition, from scripted dramas and comedies, to movies, to sports, soap operas and other daytime programming, to local news broadcasts, and other programming. For the most part, all nationally broadcast programming is now presented in High Definition, and even a growing amount of local programming as well.

HBO, Showtime, ESPN, and Discovery were some of the first national variety HDTV channels, but now a huge selection of HD channels exist including staples such as TNT, USA, TBS, etc.

HDNet was the first full-time HD channel, offering World News (the only regular international news broadcast available in the USA in HDTV), various syndicated HDTV shows, movies, and sports (HDNet provided NBC with HD coverage of the 2002 Olympics) from Fox SportsNet, The NHL on HDNet, CBC Hockey Night In Canada, and has also co-produced basketball with NBC.

More details about HDTV programming (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164671) can be found at the TiVo Community's sister site, the AVS HDTV Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=34).


Does the Broadcast Flag mean I will see a poor/downrezzed picture on my older HDTV?

The broadcast flag could, in theory, allow a content provider to tell the HDTiVo to play back a broadcast at 480p instead of the 720p or 1080i quality that it was broadcast with. To date, broadcasters have promised not to use the flag except for premium programming such as PPV. With the prevalence of HDCP-compatible televisions, this is a shrinking concern.

"The most important thing in the FCC's broadcast flag rules is that the broadcast flag cannot be used to prevent recording. That is not the intent of the broadcast flag, and even the MPAA in its comments filed to the FCC agreed that it should not restrict consumers from recording or copying for personal use. For that matter, the FCC doesn't have the authority to mandate something that overrides copyright law which allows us to record and copy for personal use.

The FCC rules do not require devices to reduce the resolution of flagged HD material when it is output in analog form. (The FCC did not take any action to close the "analog hole".) However, devices will be required to reduce the resolution of flagged HD material when it is output in digital form over a signal path that is not secure. The HDTiVo's HDMI connection has the HDCP encryption, so the rule isn't applicable.

The FCC rules also spell out how recorders are to comply with the broadcast flag. First, recorders have to preserve the flag. If the flag is there when it's recorded then it has to be there when it's played back. Second, recorders have to encrypt the stored content using an approved method so it can't be used elsewhere, except by other compliant products."
-- Wayne Bundrick

"The broadcast flag prevents flagged content from being passed via unprotected digital outputs (unprotected Firewire or DVI). Digital output must be protected by 'approved' mechanisms ... namely 5C(DTCP, HDCP, CPRM, D-VHS) approved protections.

The only affect the broadcast flag could have on the HDTivo is that the DVI connection may require use of a DVI/HDCP compliant connection.

All that being said, there are additional copy restrictions (copy never, copy once, etc.) that can be applied above and beyond the broadcast flag by DirecTV (or any MSO). The FCC has issued guidelines on what types of restrictions can be imposed based on the content type (Broadcast, Subscription Channels, Premium Channels, PPV, VOD, etc). In the most restrictive case, premium content (like PPV) can be marked as 'copy never'. Even when content is marked as 'copy never', it is still allowed to be buffered/paused by a PVR for up to 90 minutes."
-- dt_dc


All TV programs must be broadcast in HDTV as of the national switchoff in February 2009, right?

Broadcasting programming in HDTV is not a requirement.

There is a Federally mandated requirement that all TV stations be broadcasting digital television by the end of 2003. Many stations applied for hardship waivers and other such requests for additional time to make this transition. But there was no requirement that this programming be High Definition (or any other format for that matter). Some stations use their digital transmitter to simulcast as many as 5 standard definition channels.

There was a Federally mandated requirement that all TV stations switch off their analog transmitter in 2009. This only affected TVs which received all of their programming over-the-air from 'rabbit ears'. A variety of subsidized converter boxes were made available for free to the public through a mail-in waiver program.

[gilvelez]

Nicely done...

Gil

[kiljoy]

Link for the SA HD Tivo is not working: 403 No Permission.

Tony

[feldon23]

Originally posted by kiljoy
Link for the SA HD Tivo is not working: 403 No Permission.

Tony
Fixed. Thanks!

[MikeSRC]

I would add a note that to use the HDMI output with a DVI converter, your DVI input will also have to be HDCP-compliant.

[Jimbo713]

Thanks, Feldon - good to see you back contributing so significantly.

Your FAQ is truly a beautiful piece of work! HD deserves this attention, as I'm sure the forthcoming HDDVR will be a huge success! I've got a Panasonic PT-47WX53 and love the HD format. Adding TiVo to it will be more than the icing on the cake.

[feldon23]

Originally posted by MikeSRC
I would add a note that to use the HDMI output with a DVI converter, your DVI input will also have to be HDCP-compliant.
Done.

[Gregor]

Great faq. Thanks!

Could the mods make it sticky?

[jautor]

I thought the rumored Samsung box (rumored $899) was supposed to have more capacity than the Hughes (rumored $699) unit? The original rumor post over on AVSforum said both on March 1st, and tagged the Hughes with a "lower recording capacity". And we know from the press release that the Hughes has 250GB, but not the price...

I'm hoping the Samsung unit is real, and assuming the rumored prices are correct, they could put a 2nd 250GB drive in that one. Especially if they used Samsung drives... (yo, Fred, pass me another pallet of drives, will ya!)

Jeff

[feldon23]

The press release from DirecTV says that the Hughes box will have a 250GB hard drive. I find it hard to believe that you get 250GB for $699.

If so, at $899 the Samsung will have, what, 500GB?!?

[ccwf]

Mismatched tags near PBS/WB plus you might want to indicate that people can click on the photos.

[UKPronto]

Well done Feldon.

I'm just slightly confused about the bit about the ATSC 480i standard which you say is "Not used in broadcast". You then say that some transmitting stations are simulcasting as many as 5 standard definition digital channels. Aren't these using 480i?

[dswallow]

The very last sentence is missing a 'd' in the word "deadline".

[feldon23]

ccwf, thanks. Fixed.

UKPronto. Sorry, you're right. Lemme fix.

[jautor]

Originally posted by feldon23
The press release from DirecTV says that the Hughes box will have a 250GB hard drive. I find it hard to believe that you get 250GB for $699.

If so, at $899 the Samsung will have, what, 500GB?!?

Agreed, $699 sounds too cheap for the initial launch price. Although as we both know, the "cost" of a DirecTV receiver and it's "price" have very little to do with each other... I don't think they need to subsidize the box, at least at first. So to me, the $699 price is the least believable part of that rumor post. But whatever the price of the Hughes box, Samsung could certainly add a second 250GB drive for a $200 SRP bump. They'd even have a few bucks of margin left :D. (Seriously, the cost of the 250GB drives has come down quite a bit, I'd guess in volume, from your own disk division, they should be ~$120 or so).

Even if was $300 more than the Hughes, if it has 500GB, I'll still buy it.

But look at the PVR921 at $999. If Hughes prices their box at $699-799, that's a steal given the added functionality! (and yes, I know, but there's no firewire - sorry, doesn't bother me *this year*).

Jeff

[Stephen Tu]

DirecTV HD TiVos have a switch on the front of the unit allowing you to control the output format being sent over the Component outputs to suit the capabilities of your HDTV. This setting cannot be changed with the remote control

The people who have seen the demo / beta units seem to say that the second sentence here is untrue, you can change output format by remote. Can anyone confirm this? It would be highly annoying if you couldn't.

[gaspanic]

Nicely done. HDnet also has MLS in HD. Usually one game each Saturday night during their season.

[Joe Smith]

Another very useful website for determining what antenna you will need is
TitanTV (http://www.titantv.com) which has an Antenna Selector.
The site lists the schedule for local HDTV broadcasts.

[Toeside]

Great job Feldon23. The compilation of "What's in HD" is a great part of the FAQ. It makes me want to run out to get an HDTV monitor now.

Craig

[DCIFRTHS]

Very nice document. Thanks for doing it !

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by MikeSRC
I would add a note that to use the HDMI output with a DVI converter, your DVI input will also have to be HDCP-compliant.

I was under the impression that HDMI connectors plugged directly into HDCP connectors. Do you have any additional information on the converters, and what they do/how they work?

Thanks !

[dswallow]

Originally posted by DCIFRTHS
I was under the impression that HDMI connectors plugged directly into HDCP connectors. Do you have any additional information on the converters, and what they do/how they work? HDCP is a protocol for content protection implemented on both DVI and HDMI interfaces. The HDMI connector itself isn't pin-compatible with a DVI connector, but there is a 1:1 correspondence of the digital video signals, so only an adapter is required. HDMI does include audio, however, which wouldn't be on a DVI connector.

Here's an excellent description of DVI, HDMI & HDCP: http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/DVI_HDMI.htm

[skellener]

So does this mean no component video out?

Steve

[dswallow]

Originally posted by skellener
So does this mean no component video out? No it does not mean that. What leads you to believe that?

The concept behind HDCP is that on suitably protected content any high-definition output that wasn't protected with HDCP would be disabled in favor of standard definition.

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by dswallow
No it does not mean that. What leads you to believe that?

The concept behind HDCP is that on suitably protected content any high-definition output that wasn't protected with HDCP would be disabled in favor of standard definition.

I didn't ask the original question, but your second sentance sounds like compoent outputs will NOT output HD signals. Is that what you intended to convey?

[dswallow]

Originally posted by DCIFRTHS
I didn't ask the original question, but your second sentance sounds like compoent outputs will NOT output HD signals. Is that what you intended to convey? When the signal is flagged as protected, you'll get HD output on HDCP-compatible DVI/HDMI outputs, but all other outputs will become 480i (or maybe it's 480p in the case of component) showing downconverted video.

If the content is not protected, you'll get HD output on DVI/HDMI outputs and component outputs.

In the real world, what does this mean? No broadcaster or cable channel has used the flags yet, except for some PPV or other channels I believe it's been used on just for equipment testing purposes.

[kimsan]

Great start! I'm sure this will just get better as more information becomes available.

Mods definitely need to make this a sticky!

[jdk]

great FAQ...

I'd suggest listing all the connections on the back of the HDTivo, and discuss their expected use (or non-use) - HDMI, Component, USB, 2 Sat, 1 ANT, etc...

I think there's a component question just above. Plus there's sure to be repeated questions about HDMI, DVI, HDCP, etc... dswallow's link above is a good start, but maybe a little too technical for everyone.

Plus, I'd suggest adding a short section describing (to the best of our ability at this point) the operation of the HD Dtivo - mentioning that it is expected to release with version 3.X of software, meaning no HMO, etc...

[HDTV-Tivo]

Originally posted by dswallow
When the signal is flagged as protected, you'll get HD output on HDCP-compatible DVI/HDMI outputs, but all other outputs will become 480i (or maybe it's 480p in the case of component) showing downconverted video.

If the content is not protected, you'll get HD output on DVI/HDMI outputs and component outputs.

In the real world, what does this mean? No broadcaster or cable channel has used the flags yet, except for some PPV or other channels I believe it's been used on just for equipment testing purposes.

That really sucks because I have two HDTVs that only have component inputs. This means that under many circumstances I simply will not be able to have the picture quality that I was promised when I bought these TVs. That really pisses me off. From this point onward, I have no objections whatsoever for people who want to circumvent things like macrovision, because now I am in their shoes.

Standalone HDTivo users will really get screwed, because they wont be allowed to record high definition content period in these situations, whereas directivo users will at least be able to do that.

I will look forward to having the fun of hacking the tivo in such a way as to force the component outputs to always give you the best resolution possible.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by HDTV-Tivo
That really sucks because I have two HDTVs that only have component inputs. This means that under many circumstances I simply will not be able to have the picture quality that I was promised when I bought these TVs. That really pisses me off. From this point onward, I have no objections whatsoever for people who want to circumvent things like macrovision, because now I am in their shoes.

Standalone HDTivo users will really get screwed, because they wont be allowed to record high definition content period in these situations, whereas directivo users will at least be able to do that.

I will look forward to having the fun of hacking the tivo in such a way as to force the component outputs to always give you the best resolution possible. Well keep in mind...

1) This is a technical capability; no commercial broadcaster/cable station is actively utilizing it and for the reasons you stated it's going to be rather controversial once one does. And there is another flag in broadcast ATSC streams to control re-recording and timeshifting rights, too... again, a technical capability with no one yet actively restricting anything...

2) There will never be a standalone HDTiVo that encodes analog signals. Never say never, right? Well, there's no existing chipset to do HD realtime mpeg2 encoding that could be used in an affordable standalone. Think many thousands of dollars using existing technology. Any standalone HDTiVo will be limited to OTA ATSC signals which would be received digitally, and to SD recording for anything it has to encode.

[smak]

Do the OTA tuners on the directv version mean that you would be able to use that box without directv, maybe buying it because you'll have directv in the future, but not wanting to have to buy another box when you do get the dish.

-smak-

[dswallow]

Originally posted by smak
Do the OTA tuners on the directv version mean that you would be able to use that box without directv, maybe buying it because you'll have directv in the future, but not wanting to have to buy another box when you do get the dish. Probably not, since program information comes via satellite, I'd suspect the receiver would be not much more than a standard OTA receiver without the dish hooked up and a subscription. I doubt the TiVo functionality would work, at least.

[Wayne Bundrick]

The so-called "broadcast flag" has the vaguely worded purpose of keeping copyrighted programming from being distributed all over the Internet. It is not intended to limit recording, timeshifting, or distributing it within the home, all of which are allowed by copyright law and the FCC has no authority to touch that. Also, as much as the MPAA would want to have the broadcast flag close the "analog hole", the FCC did not agree to close it.

See http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-273A1.pdf . It's all dry government-speak, but the FCC's point of view and their decisions are straightforward, and Appendix B contains the new regulations for the broadcast flag.

[feldon23]

Originally posted by skellener
So does this mean no component video out?

Steve
Believe it or not, HD TiVos WILL be compatible with the 96% of HDTV sets out there that only have Component inputs. :D :)

Originally posted by dswallow
In the real world, what does this mean? No broadcaster or cable channel has used the flags yet, except for some PPV or other channels I believe it's been used on just for equipment testing purposes.
The FCC basically told the broadcast industry that if they want the FCC's wrath, go ahead and try to copy-protect non-premium content. :D

[feldon23]

jdk said:
I'd suggest listing all the connections on the back of the HDTivo
We don't know what the back of the HD DTiVo looks like yet but we can assume:

2 Satellite inputs
1 Component Video output
1 S-Video output
2 RCA video/audio outputs
1 Optical audio output
2 useless USB ports (they'd be dumb not to make em USB2)
1 HDMI (HDCP) port
1 power port


Here's a photo of the prototype that DirecTV was demoing at CES 2003. Realize that they put the Component outputs where 1 set of RCA outputs were. I doubt this represents the layout the final unit will have. I will probably grow to regret posting this picture. :D

http://www.feldoncentral.com/TiVo/hdtivo_dback.jpg


jdk said:
Plus, I'd suggest adding a short section describing (to the best of our ability at this point) the operation of the HD Dtivo - mentioning that it is expected to release with version 3.X of software, meaning no HMO, etc...
We don't know any of this yet.

[feldon23]

Originally posted by smak
Do the OTA tuners on the directv version mean that you would be able to use that box without directv, maybe buying it because you'll have directv in the future, but not wanting to have to buy another box when you do get the dish.

-smak-
Absolutely not.

These are OTA 8VSB digital tuners.

[Heinrichs]

Originally posted by dswallow
1) This is a technical capability; no commercial broadcaster/cable station is actively utilizing it and for the reasons you stated it's going to be rather controversial once one does. And there is another flag in broadcast ATSC streams to control re-recording and timeshifting rights, too... again, a technical capability with no one yet actively restricting anything...


That brings up a question. Would tivo record the hdtv stream in high resolution and then downconvert it during playback? Or would it record it in low resolution if only an analog connection was enabled while the flag was present in the stream?

And FWIW, downconverting the signal would require expensive mpeg reencoding hardware, just because of this flag.

[feldon23]

I don't think the TiVo would have the CPU power to downrez the footage and record that to disk. Could be wrong...

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Heinrichs
That brings up a question. Would tivo record the hdtv stream in high resolution and then downconvert it during playback? Or would it record it in low resolution if only an analog connection was enabled while the flag was present in the stream?

And FWIW, downconverting the signal would require expensive mpeg reencoding hardware, just because of this flag. Downconverting for display is pretty simple; all current HD receivers do this, actually. The HD TiVo won't have the ability to encode MPEG2 in any fashion; it can only record the datastream it tunes to, be it OTA DTV or DirecTV SD or HD. But even an HD program recorded can be displayed on SD monitors because downconverting for display, as mentioned before, is simple and easily done.

It'll record what you tell it to, and display it on all outputs in a format appropriate for that output (and taking into consideration the front panel setting for the digital/component output format).

(And upconverting for display is no big deal either; all current HD receivers can do this too)

[Philosofy]

A quick question: How would the HDTiVo differentiate between recording an HD program or its analog counterpart? If I am running low on drive space, could I tell it to record the West Wing in standard def tonight, rather than HD? Will season passes be format specific?

[feldon23]

I suppose you can set up Season Passes for whichever channel you want, whether it's the analog or digital version.

I wonder how they're going to deal with the total lack of guide data for local digital channels. Dish hasn't come up with a solution.

[Philosofy]

After thinking about it, you would probably put in two season passes, with the digital station just above the analog. The 28 day rule would keep both from recording, and if there isn't enough space, it would automatically revert to the analog channel.

[dswallow]

Your choice; the 28-day rule applies. Create a season pass on the HD channel and a season pass on the SD channel. Prioritize the HD season pass first, then the SD one, if there's not enough space to record the HD program (and "not enough space" means there's nothing that could be automatically deleted at that time), then it wouldn't record, and if there were enough space for the SD version, it would record.

Season passes being channel-specific makes this easy.

Now for wishlists, it'd be different. One would expect a new option would be provided on wishlists with regard to HD vs. SD program preferences, and I think that was alluded to by someone allegedly with first-hand knowledge of it.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
I suppose you can set up Season Passes for whichever channel you want, whether it's the analog or digital version.

I wonder how they're going to deal with the total lack of guide data for local digital channels. Dish hasn't come up with a solution. I do not understand this "total lack of guide data" argument. I have full guide data for every HD channel in the program guide on my DirecTV HD receiver. That includes all NYC and Philadelphia stations.

I suppose it may be referring to subchannels; except that in NYC the Fox station is broadcasting the UPN station on a subchannel and there's guide data for that. So again I do not understand this argument.

This has been the case since March, at least, as that's when I got my receiver. I'm sure it's been the case for far longer, though.

[jdk]

Originally posted by feldon23


I wonder how they're going to deal with the total lack of guide data for local digital channels. Dish hasn't come up with a solution.


DirecTV currently sends guide data for the local HD channels through the satellites to your HD receiver. You simply enter a zipcode for your local HD channels, and your locals appear in the Guide.

Its not 100% perfect - it depends upon how acurately your local TV station reports to their guide service (don't recall exactly who they're currently using), but it seems to be pretty good right now.

[feldon23]

Well, you learn something every day!

[AAhitman]

If I am reading all this about connections right then the HD Tivo won't hook up to my 42" Mits which only has RGBHV connections. No DVI or HDMI. Is this correct?

[dswallow]

Originally posted by AAhitman
If I am reading all this about connections right then the HD Tivo won't hook up to my 42" Mits which only has RGBHV connections. No DVI or HDMI. Is this correct? There are adapters to go from HD component to RGB: http://www.extron.com/product/product.asp?id=cvc200&subtype=36

But they're not cheap... that one I've seen around for $700 (it lists for $895).

I've seen cheaper ones, but they're rated only for 480p video. There could be other such devices though that would do what you need and be less expensive; even Mitsubishi may have something specifically for your television.

[rscorer]

Thanks for posting this information, I am now really looking forward to my trip to CES :)

March is going to be an exciting month, I think I need a new equipment stack :D

Cheers,
Richard

[rcwalters]

I don't see this addressed here yet...maybe it's too obvious to some, but you basically cannot find a HDTV monitor that can actually display HD--you have to buy a $300+ HDTV receiver in addition. Does this TiVo include that hardware inside it, or do you still need the stupid extra $300 box?

If the DirecTiVo includes it, that mitigates the $900 price to some extent.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by rcwalters
I don't see this addressed here yet...maybe it's too obvious to some, but you basically cannot find a HDTV monitor that can actually display HD--you have to buy a $300+ HDTV receiver in addition. Does this TiVo include that hardware inside it, or do you still need the stupid extra $300 box?

If the DirecTiVo includes it, that mitigates the $900 price to some extent. The HDTiVo is the receiver and will connect to your HD monitor directly via HDMI, DVI or component inputs. The "receiver" you refer to is the same sort of thing... but just for over-the-air reception, and isn't necessary if you have a different HD source like the HDTiVo, or another HD satellite receiver, or HD cable box.

[KenW]

I think we need a picture or a link on how to wire for it. I like the 3 dish option myself. :D

[AAhitman]

Originally posted by dswallow
There are adapters to go from HD component to RGB: http://www.extron.com/product/product.asp?id=cvc200&subtype=36

But they're not cheap... that one I've seen around for $700 (it lists for $895).

I've seen cheaper ones, but they're rated only for 480p video. There could be other such devices though that would do what you need and be less expensive; even Mitsubishi may have something specifically for your television.


Mits has a promise module but it is 1000.00 and I'm not sure if it adds DVI. I know it adds firewire and a tuner. This could be a very expensive proposition.

[Bigg]

Can the HDTiVo record SD locals? It would need to encode the analog signal from the ATSC tuner (even though it would be NTSC). Also, can your TV use a VGA input? Could you adapt the DVI to VGA? I dunno. I'm a bit confused about interfaces that don't appear on pcs.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Bigg
Can the HDTiVo record SD locals? It would need to encode the analog signal from the ATSC tuner (even though it would be NTSC). Also, can your TV use a VGA input? Could you adapt the DVI to VGA? I dunno. I'm a bit confused about interfaces that don't appear on pcs. The HDTiVo will not be able to encode anything; so it cannot record OTA local analog signals -- only those delivered over satellite or OTA digital signals.

[Bigg]

That sucks. So then is all of say CBS digital, or only CSI and other HD shows? Is the news 480i digital? If some is digital and some not, then some shows on a channel could be recorded, and some not. That really sucks.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Bigg
That sucks. So then is all of say CBS digital, or only CSI and other HD shows? Is the news 480i digital? If some is digital and some not, then some shows on a channel could be recorded, and some not. That really sucks. You're not grasping this... Everything broadcast on a digital station is digital -- meaning it's transmitted as MPEG2 encoded data. This broadcast format is called ATSC. The old analog broadcast stations are NTSC format. Anything coming over an ATSC channel is recordable. It doesn't matter what resolution it's broadcast in; it's still digital and MPEG2-encoded.

[Wayne Bundrick]

If by "SD locals" you mean an ATSC signal that is SDTV instead of HDTV, for example a TV station that is too cheap to do HDTV so they are just simulcasting their analog signal using 480i, then I believe the answer should be "yes".

The HDTiVo is just going to spool the digital stream, or the relevant portion of it, as-is to the hard disk, so it shouldn't care what the format is until it's time to play it. And if the HDTiVo can play HDTV, then it surely has more than enough horsepower to play SDTV. I'm not aware of any HDTV receiver that is so borked that it can't handle SDTV. For that matter, ATSC compliance requires the ability to decode and display all 36 variants of the ATSC formats. DirecTV HDTiVo has no choice but to do it because all of the non-HD channels on DirecTV are effectively SDTV channels, and I don't see why they would handle DirecTV's SDTV channels but not be able to handle OTA ATSC SDTV.

Since Fox isn't doing HDTV yet, I wouldn't want to be the one who would have to tell Rupert that his DirecTV HDTiVo units can't record Fox SDTV.

Relax. HDTiVo should be able to record all OTA digital signals regardless of the resolution.

[Bigg]

Originally posted by Wayne Bundrick
Since Fox isn't doing HDTV yet, I wouldn't want to be the one who would have to tell Rupert that his DirecTV HDTiVo units can't record Fox SDTV.
:D LOL :D
ok I get it. I'll have a regular DTiVo, but I was jus wondering.

[Bigg]

Originally posted by Wayne Bundrick
Since Fox isn't doing HDTV yet, I wouldn't want to be the one who would have to tell Rupert that his DirecTV HDTiVo units can't record Fox SDTV.
:D LOL :D
ok I get it. I'll have a regular DTiVo, but I was jus wondering.

[Greyhawk68]

Hey guys,

I currently have Comcast and utilize a bunch of their hi-def stations through their HD set top box. It does both standard and hi-def programming. It has RGB out to the Mits TV which has RGB in. Now, I want to put the new standalone Hi-def TiVo in the middle of that stream. From what I'm seeing, this isn't going to be an option right? Will the Hi-Def standalone NOT be able to record a hi-def stream from my Comcast hi-def cable box?

Can someone clarify this a little bit. I'm unfortunately confused :-(

Thanks,
Grey

[Bigg]

No. It wouldn't be ble to encode the stream. Get HDDTiVo.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Greyhawk68
I currently have Comcast and utilize a bunch of their hi-def stations through their HD set top box. It does both standard and hi-def programming. It has RGB out to the Mits TV which has RGB in. Now, I want to put the new standalone Hi-def TiVo in the middle of that stream. From what I'm seeing, this isn't going to be an option right? Will the Hi-Def standalone NOT be able to record a hi-def stream from my Comcast hi-def cable box? A couple things... no HD standalone TiVo has been announced. But no, it would not be able to record the stream as you would like to use it. The reason is that there is no inexpensive solution to encode HD resolutions in MPEG2, so the only things the HD TiVo is able to record are things already MPEG2 encoded, which means DirecTV or OTA broadcasts from ATSC digital stations.

There is an emerging cable decoder standard that might make it practical for TiVo to build a standalone HD device that could work with cable systems, but that standard isn't finalized (technically, though for practical purposes it is), and requires the cable systems to support it, and none of that is going to happen quickly.

[Archangel]

Originally posted by feldon23
We don't know what the back of the HD DTiVo looks like yet but we can assume:

2 Satellite inputs
1 Component Video output
1 S-Video output
2 RCA video/audio outputs
1 Optical audio output
2 useless USB ports (they'd be dumb not to make em USB2)
1 HDMI (HDCP) port
1 power port

Now if you had a video display device that has one DVI/HDCP input and one HDMI....and plan on getting a DVD player with a HDMI output (Pioneer 59AVi)....who would you allot the HDMI input and who would get the DVI input on the video display.

Does one sacrafice any picture quality when you use a DVI to HDMI cable....instead of a pure HDMI to HDMI or DVI to DVI cable ?

And I presume you can flip flop the cable....and instead of using DVI from sat receiver to HDMI on video display....you can use HDMI on sat receiver to DVI on Video display?

If I upgrade to the HD DirecTV/TiVo...am I stuck with a fairly new and in pristine condition HD300 sat receiver. Can one sell these units even though it is registered at DirecTV in my name ??

And it seems all the HD DirecTV have little quirks and foibles....how could I sell it without someone wanting to return back to me.....because of a quirk that the whole line of HD300s have ??

[Darin]

Originally posted by Bigg
Can the HDTiVo record SD locals?
Although I'm sure it varies a lot depending on where you live, most (maybe all?) of my local stations here in Atlanta multicast an SD feed with the HD feed in the digital signal. So in such a case, you'd be able to choose whether to record SD or HD. I don't watch that much stuff on the broadcast networks - I don't even look at that part of the guide very often, so I'm not sure if that's the case with ALL of the stations. In the case where the original program is not HD, I'll prefer to watch it on the SD feed, because they don't normally zoom the SD feed to fill the screen height (so there are borders all around). My TV doesn't let me zoom HD feeds (and I don't think my receiver does either).

[Bryanmc]

Darin!

Fantastic to see you again!

Please don't be a stranger anymore, we miss you!

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Archangel
Now if you had a video display device that has one DVI/HDCP input and one HDMI....and plan on getting a DVD player with a HDMI output (Pioneer 59AVi)....who would you allot the HDMI input and who would get the DVI input on the video display.

Does one sacrafice any picture quality when you use a DVI to HDMI cable....instead of a pure HDMI to HDMI or DVI to DVI cable ?

And I presume you can flip flop the cable....and instead of using DVI from sat receiver to HDMI on video display....you can use HDMI on sat receiver to DVI on Video display? The video signals present on a DVI cable are identical to the same on an HDMI; it's purely a pin-to-pin cable. There's no loss whatsoever between DVI-HDMI, DVI-DVI, or HDMI-HDMI.

HDMI is just a smaller connector and also has digital audio signals.

HDMI-DVI cables aren't directional; you can use them in either direction.

[Darin]

Well gee, thanks Bryan. :) I was probably spending a little too much time here, but I'm pretty excited about the HD-Tivo, so I expect I'll be popping in some more. :)

[Todd]

Originally posted by Bryanmc
Darin!

Fantastic to see you again!

Please don't be a stranger anymore, we miss you!

He's been hiding out at the avsforum the whole time.... :eek:

[turls]

Great FAQ.

I know programming is in a constant state of flux, but if people don't pay attention they might think they are going to get NBA TV on DirecTV in HD with their new receiver. They stopped giving NBA TV HD to us when we started paying for HD.:rolleyes: :mad:

Of course, Dish has it, probably the only time in recent memory they have really one-upped DirecTV on HD programming.

There aren't even enough details to know who is at fault, the NBA, DirecTV, or a combination of the 2.

[turls]

DirecTV e-mail or phone acts completely clueless when you ask them about anything having to do with OTA and DirecTV receivers. So why is this so hard to understand? They are lucky to have all the stations in my area in my guide (they actually still don't for stations that have been up for months), I don't expect them to have guide data 100% correct either, and they sure as heck don't. Once channel has no guide data still.

And at least on the Samsung TS160, you scan one direction you lose your previous scans so the box has no clue about antenna rotors either. The HDDTivo probably won't either.

I'll decide if I want to delete the channels from previous scans, ok?

Originally posted by dswallow
I do not understand this "total lack of guide data" argument. I have full guide data for every HD channel in the program guide on my DirecTV HD receiver. That includes all NYC and Philadelphia stations.

[feldon23]

That's a recurring nightmare on HD receivers. The inability to add/delete channels manually and/or keep channels from previous scans.

[Todd]

Originally posted by feldon23
That's a recurring nightmare on HD receivers. The inability to add/delete channels manually and/or keep channels from previous scans.

That's how the built-in tuner acted when I got my Hitachi a year ago, but someone requested that it be changed and guess what...Hitachi upgraded the software to allow you to tune in a digital channel directly and if it detects a signal, it will add it to the lineup! :cool: A few months ago I requested the the upgraded which they sent on an MMC card and I upgraded the software in my TV. :up: I love saying that... ;)

[SourKraut]

Will Directv ever offer the network channels in hd and if so, when? I'm frustrated by the fact that I live in the hills of LA and can't get HD even with a boosted channelmaster antenna. I don't want the local digital cable and I'm hoping Directv will offer it sometime.

[feldon23]

DirecTV will never be allowed to by the government or local affiliates, even if you can't receive them.

[jamesmil]

Lack of unscrambled QAM support is a dissapointment, as I am unable to receive the local channels over the air (big hill between me and the towers, too much interference), yet our cable company offers all but one as unscrabled QAM signals on their most basic cable tier...

[Darin]

Although I doubt you'll see a "national feed", I'd expect to see something like we have today (distant NY/LA locals) for those who qualify. I also expect to see HD locals, at least for the major markets, within the next couple of years. Sure, there's some pain in the interim, but I do believe it's coming.

[Archangel]

I was just looking over last year's CES announcement on the HD DirecTV/TiVo. I was wondering what was the real reason that it is taking now 12 months...and probably another 2 or so before we can actually touch a working unit.

Was it just a concept on paper back in January 2003 and they announced too early ?
Or were there just so many unanticipated technical hurdles ?

[jeff125va]

Thanks for the excellent summary Feldon. You covered all those combinations of recording OTA and DirecTV channels simultaneously, which probably answers a question I've had for a while. I remember someone speculating a while back that regardless of how many tuners it had, it wouldn't be able to record two HD channels at the same time. But if the OTA channels can only be digital, I'd have to assume that it can.

I also think we'll start to see HD locals rolled out within the next few years. They've been adding more and more markets, even when they had to start carrying ALL the local network channels for each market. Hopefully it'll happen before they switch back to the normal channel numbers and my UHF-only antenna doesn't work any more.

[Darin]

Originally posted by Archangel
I was wondering what was the real reason that it is taking now 12 months
Although I haven't looked at that announcement in a long time, IIRC, even back then it wasn't expected until 4th qtr 2003. The story I've heard is that it's late because at the time of CES last year, it was not planned to be able to record two streams at one time. Those of us who have gotten used to two tuners made a big stink about it, so they had to do some redesign to add tuners and enable it to handle the bandwidth to process two HD streams at once (at the time of CES last year, they indicated bandwidth was the issue). So all things considered, I don't think it's THAT late.

[BrettStah]

feldon23 said...
DirecTV HD TiVos have a switch on the front of the unit allowing you to control the output format being sent over the Component outputs to suit the capabilities of your HDTV. This setting cannot be changed with the remote control.Feldon, where did you hear that part about not being able to switch output formats with the remote? I've heard the opposite.

[dfusfeld]

Originally posted by BrettStah
Feldon, where did you hear that part about not being able to switch output formats with the remote? I've heard the opposite.

I'm someone with no HD in any form - YET, so forgive me if this is a dumb question, but why would you even need to do this? Wouldn't you set your output format once and be done?

[dswallow]

Originally posted by dfusfeld
I'm someone with no HD in any form - YET, so forgive me if this is a dumb question, but why would you even need to do this? Wouldn't you set your output format once and be done? In an ideal world, yes, you'd probably do this, or actually you might prefer to have the output automatically switch to whatever the source material actually is, avoiding any circuitry in the receiver that converts it from one resolution to another (presumably because you have some other device that does a better job at this).

But in the real world, a lot of monitors are unable to manipulate (stretch or zoom) a 720p or 1080i signal. So someone desiring to zoom in on a letterboxed 4:3 signal to fill their 16:9 display, or to stretch the 4:3 signal across their 16:9 display can only do so when the signal coming into the display is 480i or 480p.

[Darin]

Another reason would be if you had a high-end CRT display that could do multiple HD resolutions natively. If your projector could do both 720p and 1080i natively, then you'd want to output 720p for ABC and ESPN (and Fox later this year), but 1080i for the others. This would prevent any quality loss from converting to another resolution.

But most of us have display devices that can only display one or the other natively, so it's usually set once and left alone.

[BrettStah]

I will need to be able to do this in order to be able to properly output to my channel modulator, which supplies up to 4 different things to other TVs in my house. There are IR extenders that send remote control signals back to the devices from those rooms, making it easy to watch anything from any Tivo from any room in the house.

Unfortunately, the HD-Tivo will not output on the analog outputs while set to output a HD signal, so I'll need a way to switch to an analog output in order to watch something on a TV somewhere other than my main TV.

[feldon23]

Your cheapest solution is to buy a DirecTV TiVo for $70 and $5 a month.

[Bigg]

Theres no need for simultansous output now, as the reason for that (or one of the reasons) is so that you could record HD or regular rpogramming off of a HD rec onto a TiVo w/o switching the output manually.

[Bigg]

Theres no need for simultansous output now, as the reason for that (or one of the reasons) is so that you could record HD or regular rpogramming off of a HD rec onto a TiVo w/o switching the output manually.

[Bigg]

Theres no need for simultansous output now, as the reason for that (or one of the reasons) is so that you could record HD or regular rpogramming off of a HD rec onto a TiVo w/o switching the output manually.

[feldon23]

http://www.stutteringhelp.org/ :)

[BrettStah]

Feldon, if I missed your reply I apologize, but did you see my question earlier in this thread about your statement regarding switching output formats only with the front panel buttons and not with the remote?

[feldon23]

Hi Brett,

I haven't heard anything concrete. What I remember from early posts was that it was a switch on the front of the unit and could NOT be controlled by remote. Maybe I am completely mis-remembering. If this is in error, then I will correct it.

Ok, I've updated the FAQ to explain the vagueness of this.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
Hi Brett,

I haven't heard anything concrete. What I remember from early posts was that it was a switch on the front of the unit and could NOT be controlled by remote. Maybe I am completely mis-remembering. If this is in error, then I will correct it. Some time ago when that picture was first posted and I exclaimed how bad it is if there were no codes for it, someone chimed in saying there was a control on the remote to toggle through them. No word on if there's discrete codes to select a specific format (which I would really seriously hope they provide).

[enodev]

Originally posted by BrettStah
Unfortunately, the HD-Tivo will not output on the analog outputs while set to output a HD signal, so I'll need a way to switch to an analog output in order to watch something on a TV somewhere other than my main TV. [/B]

Can you view 480p via component video?

[feldon23]

Component can carry 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Some home theater receivers cannot pass the entire frequency range and only work with 480p.

Realize that early Component inputs were basically super S-Video or 480i.

DVD players output 480p or better.

[enodev]

Thanks, but I understand all that. My question is will the HD Tivo run 480p through the component outputs? The original quote claimed in HD mode, all analog outputs were disabled.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by enodev
Thanks, but I understand all that. My question is will the HD Tivo run 480p through the component outputs? The original quote claimed in HD mode, all analog outputs were disabled. The capability of disabling analog output of high definition signals is present in HDCP, but 480p is not high definition. It's also not that the analog outputs would be completely disabled in such cases, but that the resolution would be reduced from high definition in such cases.

[webboy1]

Originally posted by Bigg
Theres no need for simultansous output now, as the reason for that (or one of the reasons) is so that you could record HD or regular rpogramming off of a HD rec onto a TiVo w/o switching the output manually.

Wrong some of us have a Zone 2 capable receiver which only accepts a analog signal. I for one like to have the sound on in the garage when i go for a beer or a smoke, let alone any other room in the house, or maybe the backyard where i have a clear shot of the plasma.

No simultansous output is really gonna suck.

[feldon23]

Nobody said you won't get analog and digital audio at the same time. We're talking about video.

[enodev]

Originally posted by dswallow
The capability of disabling analog output of high definition signals is present in HDCP, but 480p is not high definition. It's also not that the analog outputs would be completely disabled in such cases, but that the resolution would be reduced from high definition in such cases.

Ok thanks. I was not sure what TiVo considered HD. I believe 480p is considered Enhanced Def (EDTV.) People have different opinions on what true HD res is. 720p & 1080i is what I consider HD. Oh, this may open a can of worms! :D

[Bigg]

enodev: your right. feldon 23: thanks for reminding him. :D

[ebonovic]

Can you add a link under the :
"What hardware do I need for local digital/HDTV channels?"
To the avsforum, Local Reception Forum... Similar to what you did for the HDTV programming section

[feldon23]

Done. And updated the FAQ for CBS O&O news and switchable aspect ratio.

[BizarroTerl]

Does the HDTivo support discrete on/off codes (for remote programming)?

[feldon23]

I don't think we'll know this until it comes out. Keep in mind that TiVos are designed to stay on 24/7.

[BizarroTerl]

I realize that. I'm referring to standby mode. I've been waiting for a HDTivo for a couple years now. I guess I can hold on for a few more months. :(

[BrettStah]

BizarroTerl, I know this came up recently in another Tivo-related thread with you, but I don't remember exactly what purpose you have to want to switch to and from standby mode on the DirecTV/HD-Tivo so often...

[dvdude]

Originally posted by BrettStah
BizarroTerl, I know this came up recently in another Tivo-related thread with you, but I don't remember exactly what purpose you have to want to switch to and from standby mode on the DirecTV/HD-Tivo so often...

It's my understanding that some video equipment will automatically switch inputs based on the presence/absence of a signal. So one might want to be able to shut off TiVo's output for this.

I have to admit, I do bring my boxes in and out of standby regularly, but not for the reason stated above. First, it just feels right (I know, I know) but also, in the last few minutes before I leave for work, I'm too busy to concentrate on the TV. Because I leave turning the gear off as my last task, I can catch up with those last few minutes when I get home by rewinding the buffer (remembering not to change channels of course). I have a theory also about disk drive wear and constantly recording the buffer 24/7 but it's only a theory. Finally, my machine is cooler when in standby and probably consumes a couple of watts less.

[Zathrus]

I have a theory also about disk drive wear and constantly recording the buffer 24/7

You can theorize all you like, but the buffers are still recorded when in standby.

All standby does is turn off the front LED and enable pass-through mode on the coax input/output. The TiVo will also record more suggestions because it knows you're not watching, but there is no significant power savings (<0.1W for the LED) and the hard drives continue recording.

[dvdude]

Originally posted by Zathrus
You can theorize all you like, but the buffers are still recorded when in standby.

All standby does is turn off the front LED and enable pass-through mode on the coax input/output. The TiVo will also record more suggestions because it knows you're not watching, but there is no significant power savings (<0.1W for the LED) and the hard drives continue recording.

Erm NO - The SAT-T60's definitely do NOT work the way you suggest

[BrettStah]

No buffering in standby mode on my DirecTivos either...

[kwerner]

The no simultaneous analog & HD output does suck. I was hoping we'd be beyond this now, my older HD DirecTV receiver doesn't have it.

What if I want to send the analog video to another room via a wireless video sender, or through modulated output to coax wires in my house(does it have modulated output?)? What if I want to copy a show onto CD/DVD to save it or let a friend watch a show he missed??? Currently I do this via SVideo to my HTPC. What if the scaler(?) in the HDTiVo isn't very good and I want to use an external one for SD content?

Otherwise it sounds great!!! If anyone finds out how to get an pre-order let us know.

[Bigg]

Your TV or receiver may be able to do this. I'm not too sure. It would only be the higher end ones if it is possible.

[JTAnderson]

Does anyone know whether it will record the entire transport stream for OTA channels or only the data for the subchannel you want to record? (And, will it strip null packets to save disk space?)

[hongcho]

Only the subchannel. I am not sure about the null packets.

Hong.

[nabsltd]

Originally posted by dswallow
When the signal is flagged as protected, you'll get HD output on HDCP-compatible DVI/HDMI outputs, but all other outputs will become 480i (or maybe it's 480p in the case of component) showing downconverted video.This second part is unlikely. For OTA, anyway, component is one of the specifically-permitted-at-all-times HD outputs in the FCC broadcast flag ruling.

Secondly, since cable companies are forbidded to down-res on component as part of the plug-and-play cable ruling, I highly doubt that DirecTV (or any other satellite provider) would be allowed to.

[rogo]

Actually, the bizarre part of the plug and play rules is that >>if<< DirecTV or Dish >>is<< allowed to down rez, then cable can too.

It's all very unlikely to come to pass, though.

[Todd76]

Originally posted by feldon23
Next month, DirecTV will offer national easy and west coast CBS and Fox feeds to all those who qualify.

Great FAQ! I think you mean "east" rather than "easy." :)

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Todd76
Great FAQ! I think you mean "east" rather than "easy." :) feldon23, as a resident of middle of the United States, has only heard stories about the eastern United States and simply experienced a moment of wishful thinking.

[Darin]

How do you qualify for the easy feed?

[feldon23]

Doug, how you, me, and Darin are keeping this topic relatively innuendo-free is beyond me. :)

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
Doug, how you, me, and Darin are keeping this topic relatively innuendo-free is beyond me. :) We have class. :)

[feldon23]

Which is highly over-rated.

[Darin]

It's not over yet.

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by Darin
Another reason would be if you had a high-end CRT display that could do multiple HD resolutions natively. If your projector could do both 720p and 1080i natively, then you'd want to output 720p for ABC and ESPN (and Fox later this year), but 1080i for the others. This would prevent any quality loss from converting to another resolution. .....



I agree with your statement, but the truth of the matter is that the majority of people have no clue what resolution programs are broadcast in. Frankly, there should be no reason that a consumer should have to ascertain what resolution a particular broadcaster decides to broadcast in. For the record, I am in the clueless group as far as what the networks are broadcasting in, but I do consider myself to be somewhat knowledgeable in the area of Home Theatre and consumer electronics.

Honestly, the whole HD roll-out is just a mess. If the standard supports multiple resolutions (like 18 of them) then the displays they are shown on should automatically switch to that resolution. An override would be available for people who wanted to customize. But what the heck do I know...

[DCIFRTHS]

Where is the signal processed for things like brightness, contrast, 3:2 pull down etc. when a DVI connection is used? In the source device or the display?

Obviously, if you are displaying on a fixed pixel display, then conversion happens in the display or its outboard processor.

I am asking because I have a follow up question, but I want to find an definitive answer before I ask it.

[Darin]

Originally posted by DCIFRTHS
If the standard supports multiple resolutions (like 18 of them) then the displays they are shown on should automatically switch to that resolution.
The ONLY display technology in use today that doesn't have an inherent "native" resolution is CRT. CRT can simply change the number of lines it does in one scan to accommodate any number of resolutions. But unfortunately, most CRT HD sets available don't take advantage of this ability. The electronics within them are designed to scan at one or maybe two specific frequencies (usually 1080, and maybe additionally 480 for SD), and separate electronics in the set run the image through interpolation when the incoming signal does not match that resolution. Why they do this, I don't know, because the picture would look best if displayed at it's original resolution rather than interpolated to another. Practically all CRT based computer monitors, even cheap sub-$100 ones, do multi-scan, so why this ability can mostly only be found in high-end projectors is a mystery to me.

Anyway, all the other display types have a fixed pixel geometry, no matter what you do with the incoming signal, they only have a specific amount of physical pixels to work with, so they MUST interpolate the incoming signal to match their native resolution, if it's not the same already.

So this is why most (all???) STBs don't simply output whatever resolution the original signal is, because unless you have one of those relatively rare CRT sets that can do multiscan, the TV is going to convert it to a specific resolution anyway. So all things being equal, it's better to do that conversion in the STB while the signal is still digital, and it ensures the guide and other STB generated graphics look better (they don't end up going through an interpolation).

That's why I said the ability to switch output resolutions would benefit high-end CRT owners, because this would let them override the automatic interpolation to a specific resolution, and get the best PQ possible out of the incoming signal. And those who wanted to take advantage of that ability would most likely know which networks are which. For everyone else, leaving it set to the native resolution of your TV is generally best. FWIW, to the best of my knowledge, ABC, ESPN, and in the fall, FOX, use 720p, while all the others use 1080i.

[Darin]

Originally posted by DCIFRTHS
Where is the signal processed for things like brightness, contrast, 3:2 pull down etc. when a DVI connection is used? In the source device or the display?
Brightness and contrast are generally done in the display device. 3:2 pull down would not be done in the display device unless you were sending it a 480i signal. So if you have your STB set to 720p, then if any 3:2 pulldown was done to SD programming, it would have to be done at the STB.

[Knative]

Originally posted by DCIFRTHS
I agree with your statement, but the truth of the matter is that the majority of people have no clue what resolution programs are broadcast in.

If the standard supports multiple resolutions (like 18 of them) then the displays they are shown on should automatically switch to that resolution.
My CRT set supports 480p & 1080i. So a STB outputting native resolution would work fine for most of my channels. ABC on the other hand outputs in 720p, which my CRT doesn't support. So if the STB outputs 720p I'm going to get a blank screen. This would be a bad thing. Assuming I knew that ABC was 720p and that my CRT won't support 720p I'd still have to manually switch the STB to output either 480p or 1080i to get a picture. If the STB just side-converts everything to one resolution (that my CRT supports) all I have to know is how to change the channel.

Plasmas will usually do 480p and 720p. So I'd be able to watch either Fox or ABC & ESPN-HD without having to know anything. PBS, NBC, CBS, UPN, HBO, etc. would give me a blank screen. And we're back to knowing what channel outputs what signal.

It's much easier for the masses to output one (supported) resolution at all times. Those with more knowledge and a compatible set can adjust the output resolution to their heart's content.

[BrettStah]

I think that the best all-around feature would be to be able to select whatever output you want, OR to enable a "native" mode option that would pass whatever signal the show is in. It looks like for whatever reason that neither the HD-Tivo nor the Dish 921 have this option though.

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by Darin
The ONLY display technology in use today that doesn't have an inherent "native" resolution is CRT. CRT can simply change the number of lines it does in one scan to accommodate any number of resolutions. But unfortunately, most CRT HD sets available don't take advantage of this ability. The electronics within them are designed to scan at one or maybe two specific frequencies (usually 1080, and maybe additionally 480 for SD), and separate electronics in the set run the image through interpolation when the incoming signal does not match that resolution. Why they do this, I don't know, because the picture would look best if displayed at it's original resolution rather than interpolated to another. Practically all CRT based computer monitors, even cheap sub-$100 ones, do multi-scan, so why this ability can mostly only be found in high-end projectors is a mystery to me. ......

While I think it's great that technology moves forward, and we are seeing all sorts of new display innovations, it's too bad that most of them are fixed pixel designs. DLP, LCoS, LCD etc. This is why I still say that an RPTV, if you have the room, is the best way to go. They still offer the best display, and are a bargain because of the new technologies.

My RPTV will display 480i, 480p (?), 960i, 1080i, and it accepts 720p. The reason I put a question mark after 480p is because I am still researching that mode, and the details are sketchy. It is thought that all resolutions below 720p are converted to 960i on my particular set (Sony 57-WV700). Apparently 960i is very easy for the set to convert to, and gives a very solid picture. 720p is up-converted to 1080i. I don't like this idea because I believe that a 720p display will look better than a resolution of 1080i because of the interlacing. It's a shame that the best looking resolution (in theory) is more expensive to reproduce and therefore ignored by most (all?) manufacturers.

When I said there are 18 formats for HD, I didn't mean that the display device could or should display all of them. Since the networks have "standardized" on a few resolutions, what I would like to see is the native display of the ones that are being broadcast - without the end user having to figure out the resolution of the broadcast and then selecting the output on the STB. You brought up a really good point, and it's one that supports my whole "HD roll out is a mess" theory. There is conversion going on in at least one place in the signal path.

It bothers me that the HD roll out has so many compromises in it. This was the perfect chance to do a standard correctly, but because of various (read political) reasons, it is a compromise. On top of that it is a confusing for consumers.

At least we are moving forward. Albeit rather slowly.....

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by Knative
My CRT set supports 480p & 1080i. So a STB outputting native resolution would work fine for most of my channels. ABC on the other hand outputs in 720p, which my CRT doesn't support. So if the STB outputs 720p I'm going to get a blank screen. ....

Are you sure the display won't convert a 720p signal to something else?

Originally posted by Knative
Plasmas will usually do 480p and 720p. So I'd be able to watch either Fox or ABC & ESPN-HD without having to know anything. PBS, NBC, CBS, UPN, HBO, etc. would give me a blank screen.

I believe that plasma displays output at a fixed resolution, so regardless of what signal you feed them, there is conversion of the signal to match the native resolution of the display. Am I making an incorrect statement?

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by Darin
Brightness and contrast are generally done in the display device. 3:2 pull down would not be done in the display device unless you were sending it a 480i signal. So if you have your STB set to 720p, then if any 3:2 pulldown was done to SD programming, it would have to be done at the STB.

So what does the display device do with a DVI (digital) signal? Is the ONLY thing it does is convert it to analog for display?

[Darin]

I also have a Sony set (46WT510), and it actually DOWNconverts 720p to 480p, and many Sonys do the same. And 960i is technically 1080i... all they do for 960i is put put it in a 1080i frame, then vertically stretch the image so the black bars are off-screen. There is also a guy at HomeTheaterSpot who claims that 480 signals are always converted to 960 (and hence, 1080) on Sony CRTs. I'm not sure if I believe that, but if it's true, then these sets only have one scan rate.

There are sets that don't support 720p AT ALL (they won't do an internal conversion), but it's usually moot since virtually all STBs give you an option of what resolution they output. The fact that my set downconverts 720p is also moot, since my set never sees 720p... the signal is converted to 1080i in the STB before it ever sees the TV. But I agree, the no compromise solution would be for my set to be able to natively disply 720 lines as well as 1080, and have the STB output whatever resolution the programming came in at. But I think the fact that so few displays actually can do multiple resolutions natively is why no STBs have the option to pass the signal in it's native format. In fact, my STB has the output resolution selection as a physical switch in the BACK of the unit... it's meant to be a set and forget setting.

[Darin]

Originally posted by DCIFRTHS
So what does the display device do with a DVI (digital) signal? Is the ONLY thing it does is convert it to analog for display?
Well, that's going to depend on the set, and I can't pretend to know what they all do, but I think generally, if it's an analog display (CRT), then it's converted to analog, then processed like any other input. If it's a digital display, then it stays in the digital domain, and any processing is done digitally.

[Knative]

Originally posted by DCIFRTHS
Are you sure the display won't convert a 720p signal to something else?

Yep, I'm sure. I have a Zenith HD-DVR that outputs 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Pressing the button on the front of the STB cycles the output resolutions. And while I was incorrect for the sake of convenience in saying that 720p will give me a 'blank screen' what it does in reality is give me a signal that looks like an old VCR that should be outputting on channel 4 instead of channel 3. A vertical line down the middle of the screen with both halves of the picture on the wrong sides and wavy horizontal lines. 480i does give a blank screen as the component inputs can't handle that signal.

My projector does 480p, 720p, and 1080i. But it looses sync for a couple of seconds when the signal type changes. So I leave the DVR at 1080i and don't worry about ABC too much. Alias still looks great.

My main point is that there is a large number of people spending a large amount of money on TVs that have no idea what they're really getting. I personally know a gent who thought that his "HDTV Ready" set would give him HDTV from every channel on basic cable. He had no idea that he'd need a STB and (for OTA) an antenna to receive true HDTV. Or that only certain channels were broadcasting in HDTV. And only at certain times. Or that he couldn't use the yellow video cable for HDTV. At least he'd upgraded from coax. I only found out when he was disappointed in the "HDTV" that he was seeing after hearing me rave about my PQ. A quick trip to his house and a bit of explaining only started to set him straight. Telling him he'd need to spend another $500 or so on a HDTV STB didn't make him too happy.

The same type of thing happens to folks that think they're getting 5.1 DD from the red & white audio jacks. Their receiver supports it so they must have it, not matter what connector they used, right?

[feldon23]

Fortunately every HDTV Set-Top Box on the market lets you pick the output resolution and converts between them. Very few HDTVs can handle 720p natively and many Plasmas can't handle 1080i so this is the perfect solution.

The only people left out are those with high-end equipment that can handle 720p and 1080i and display them natively. I don't know of any STBs that let you set it to "Output Source Format".

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
I don't know of any STBs that let you set it to "Output Source Format". The Sony HD-200 and Zenith HD-SAT520 do (as I'd expect the Sony HD-300 and LG-branded version to also do): The native setting converts 480i signals to 480p and passes along 720p and 1080i signals directly to the display without conversion. The hybrid 1 and 2 settings are similar, but hybrid 1 converts all HD signals to 1080i, and hybrid 2 converts them to 720p. EZ DVI automatically detects the monitor type and converts all signals accordingly.

This is a valuable feature when you have a decent display. I have the Fujitsu P50 plasma display and it's absolutely annoying using it with the Echostar 6000 receiver where you have to switch manually between HD and SD output modes, and it only offers 720p or 1080i all-the-time choices for HD modes. I much more enjoy the behavior of the HD-SAT520. It provides easy access to all the advanced scaling features in the plasma that will only function on 480i and 480p signals.

[rogo]

Apopos of nothing, nearly every single plasma (every one?) on the market supports 1080i -- even if they are only a 480-line display.

Several plasmas cannot be fed 720p.

Plasma owners are not generally going to miss the "no native output" thing; neither are CRT owners really.

Neither is pretty much anyone really.

I mean a few people would like it; but as a practical matter very few people will really be missing it.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by rogo
Apopos of nothing, nearly every single plasma (every one?) on the market supports 1080i -- even if they are only a 480-line display.

Several plasmas cannot be fed 720p.

Plasma owners are not generally going to miss the "no native output" thing; neither are CRT owners really.

Neither is pretty much anyone really.

I mean a few people would like it; but as a practical matter very few people will really be missing it. The two Hybrid modes solve that 720p-only or 1080i-only issue for those displays also supporting 480i/480p. Pseudo-native. ;)

I just would hate being stuck with some cheap scalar in the loop I'm force to use short of manually toggling a setting; I could live with discrete codes to select the setting, but toggles are terribly annoying to use.

[Darin]

Originally posted by rogo
I mean a few people would like it; but as a practical matter very few people will really be missing it.
I guarantee you if you sat two otherwise identical displays side by side, and had one showing a native 720p picture, while the other was displaying the same 720p source scaled to 1080i (much less 480p), the difference would be readily apparent. I just don't understand why more CRT sets don't include multi-scan capabilities. As I said earlier, if the cheapest CRT computer monitors can do multiscan, why not HD televisions? The lack of a "native resolution" is one of the advantages CRT has over other technologies, it seems that by the time television makers recognized this advantage, CRT sets will be extinct. :( I can't help but wonder if that feature isn't purposely omitted to prevent CRTs from having an upper hand over their much more expensive (and probably more profitable) fixed pixel displays.

[Squeak]

Originally posted by smak
Do the OTA tuners on the directv version mean that you would be able to use that box without directv, maybe buying it because you'll have directv in the future, but not wanting to have to buy another box when you do get the dish.

-smak-

But then where would you get your TiVo service from? Who would you pay for the TiVo service?

Since no new TiVo's work (PVR functionality) without service, I would assume that they would not allow the box to become merrily a OTA tuner (no PVR functionality).

And since this a DirecTV box, I would assume that you would not be able to pay TiVo directly for the SA TiVo service.

Because of that -- I am almost 100% positive that the box will only work if you are subscribed to DirecTV.

[rogo]

Darin, not arguing....What I'm saying is since most people's displays >>don't<< do native 720p and any reasonable 1080i (CRTs the latter; fixed pixels the former), most won't miss native output.

[Todd76]

Most consumers wouldn't understand a word of this conversation. And for that reason it's probably not a very important feature.

[feldon23]

In light of this article:
http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layout=story&articleId=CA374136&pubdate=01/10/2004&display=searchResults

I've removed mention of Samsung.

[feldon23]

Todd76 said
Most consumers wouldn't understand a word of this conversation. And for that reason it's probably not a very important feature.

Only because nobody has been asked to write it in a format that is readable. Here's my shot at it, as a part-time technical writer:

Different HDTV models have different ways of producing a picture, using different technologies such as CRT, LCD, DLP, LCOS, or Plasma. There are 2 different HDTV formats/qualities, called 720p and 1080i.

ABC, ESPN, and (in the future) Fox use 720p.
CBS, NBC, HBO, and everyone else uses 1080i.

These produce roughly the same picture quality but have some Pros and Cons.

Some HDTVs are designed for 720p and use a converter to play back 1080i.
Some HDTVs are designed for 1080i and use a converter to play back 720p.
Most HDTVs are designed for 1080i and cannot play back a 720p signal without help from your satellite/cable receiver.
And a fortunate few HDTVs natively display both 720p and 1080i in the best possible way.

Fortunately, the DirecTV HD TiVo can handle all these situations.

[MichaelK]

i hope that in a few years someone comes up with a progressive scan monitor with 2160 lines. then there would need to be no scaler ever (or a real stupid one).

If it got a 720 signal then shot each line 3 times if it got a 1080 then show each line twice, bamm no interpolation just basic math. (of course some might argue that it should still interpolate but at least even then you know ever 2nd or 3rd line is correct. (480 eve divides into it by exactly 4 and a half times so thats not such a tough interpolation either).

This whole scan lines thing gives me a brain hurt. From what i saw shoping for my TV is that many sets dont even have 720 or 1080 lines to begin with so their "native resiloution" is in fact interpolated too. For example the butt kicker top of the line pioneer elite plasmas that their was a showcase on the other day- some of those use 7689 fixed pixels. What the hell is the sense in that? It is always making up data by adding 48 lines of guesses to 720 or throwing out data by deleting 312 lines of a 1080 signal. And i never saw an explanation so for all I know it throws all the incoming data in the blender and makes all 768 lines up and we never get to see what was originally transmitted.

[mjones]

Another good use for native output from an STB is the ability to have a specific device do the scaling.

For example, the Samsung HLN617w DLP set will accept both 720p and 1080i signals. The display is a 720p native display, but uses a Faroudja for signal conversion. That chipset is arguably one of the best available for signal conversion in the digital domain.

In my setup I have a Samsung SIRT165 STB which has a physical output selector switch for a single output resolution connected to my Samsung DLP. Nearly every HD program I watch is on CBS which broadcast a 1080i native signal. If I set the STB to output 720 (which most people would recommend because it is the native resolution of the display) CBS looks 'horrible' compared to the following alternative. Set the STB to output 1080i (native resolution of the broadcast) and let the DLP do the side-conversion to 720p via the Faroudja chipset, this method looks far superior.

The problem then works in reverse. With the STB in 1080i and watching ABC (720p native), the STB performs the conversion (from 720p to 1080i) then the TV converts it again (from 1080i back to 720p) and ABC also looks 'horrible.'

Fortunately for me, I pretty much only watch CBS and NBC (1080i native) so I leave the STB set to 1080i letting my DLP side-convert to its native resolution of 720p. With the switch on the back of the STB, I almost never even bother watching 720p native shows.

Therefore, I would love to have native passthrough, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me either (due to my viewing habbits)

Mike

[rogo]

I don't know if this was posted but hitting the Up Arrow on the peanut will cycle the resolutions for you; no menus required.

Mark

[feldon23]

In what mode?

[BrettStah]

My guess is that it would work while playing back anything live or pre-recorded. That would make the most sense. And shouldn't interfere with any menu operations that way. If that's the way it works, that'd be acceptable for my household... this way I could turn on a TV upstairs, flip to the channel of the HD-Tivo (from my channel modulation system), and if I don't see a picture I can just press the up arrow a few times. (Maybe after pressing Live TV first).

[hongcho]

We were just watching a recorded show I think.

Anyway, someone scanned the Hughes HD-DVR250 spec sheet.

http://members.cox.net/technconsult/hdtivo/hdtivo.htm

Grab it while it's hot.

Hong.

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by feldon23
In light of this article:
http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layout=story&articleId=CA374136&pubdate=01/10/2004&display=searchResults

I've removed mention of Samsung.

Interesting article. How will a consumer know who manufactures the box they are buying?

[BrettStah]

Consumers will be buying a DirecTV box. 99.9% won't care if the box was manufactured by Solitron in Mexico, etc. as long as it works.

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by BrettStah
Consumers will be buying a DirecTV box. 99.9% won't care if the box was manufactured by Solitron in Mexico, etc. as long as it works.

This consumer will. I wonder if there will be a way to tell the difference.

[rogo]

Originally posted by feldon23
In what mode?

Anytime you are watching TV; live or recorded. It's in the latest iteration of the software. It does the courtesy of putting up a little on-screen indicator.

It's a "cycle" between the four resolutions; the DirecTV rep wasn't sure if there were hidden discrete codes that might be usable....

[Rocket Surgeon]

My first Sony DirecTV unit (circa 1997: cost $650) had a radio frequency (not IR) remote, which enabled me to hide the unit in a cabinet but still control channels. That was a great feature. Anyone know of any manufacturers that are planning to offer RF remotes with HD TiVo? The IR leapfrog systems just don't cut it. Too slow and not responsive all the time.

[Darin]

I have an older Sony receiver that will do RF too, and most Dish PVRs will do RF. Don't know why it hasn't caught on with TiVo. Believe it or not, I've actually heard good things about these remote extenders (http://www.surfremotecontrol.com/remote_xtender.html). Not as nice has having it built in to the unit, but apparently they work pretty well. I'm thinking of trying it out when they come out with a AAA version.

[feldon23]

Originally posted by hongcho
We were just watching a recorded show I think.

Anyway, someone scanned the Hughes HD-DVR250 spec sheet.

http://members.cox.net/technconsult/hdtivo/hdtivo.htm

Grab it while it's hot.

Hong.

Thanks, Hong.

I'm adding these to the FAQ and hosting them on my website to ensure availability.

[GalenMD]

From the Hughes HD-DVR250 spec sheet:
HDMI to DVI interface cable available for connecting DVI TVs and monitors.

Does this mean that the interface is an additional accessory or included?

TiVo has often been good about including a variety of cables. I have seen them include S-video cables and digital cable STB conversion cables.

I was planning on buying such a cable now in anticipation of this bad-boy's arrival.

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Cables included are one each of the following (in order of performance quality):

1. Coax w/Type "F" male connectors
2. RCA, Yellow/Red/White
3. "S" Video
4. Component video Pb, Pr, Y, Red/Green/Blue
5. HDMI to DVI
6. HDMI to HDMI

Plus 1 optical AC3 cable.

[Alexander]

Just to clarify, an HDMI->HDMI connection will have the exact same picture quality as a HDMI->DVI connection.

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Well I think some more highly qualified members may correct me here, but here's what I've been told. HDMI carries several protocols that analyze the handshake to determine the best resolution to pass to the display based on the native resolution and the display capabilities.

Of course, HDMI can also carry the DD audio signals.

[feldon23]

I've updated the FAQ again. Cleaned up the connections/formats info.

[jkrell]

Great job, man. I really appreciated the new/updated info!

[MrBigglesworth]

Noticed one error, you have the word easy where it should be east.

Also, does anyone know that since this unit is using a single 250GB Drive, would it then be capable of supporting an additional 250GB drive using the same upgrade methods we use now?

[dswallow]

Originally posted by MrBigglesworth
Noticed one error, you have the word easy where it should be east. feldon23 apparently has a subliminal fascination for "easy" things as noted earlier (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1643174#post1643174) in this thread. :D

[feldon23]

Guess I never fixed it the first time.

For upgrades, we're not even sure if it has the ability. I know that 2 drives on a single IDE cable is not gonna work for HDTV. So if they only put one IDE or ATA connector, we're screwed.

[BrettStah]

So you think/know that there is not enough bandwidth on one IDE controller?

[feldon23]

Based on seeing 2 hard drives fight for bandwidth on every computer I've ever used with 2 drives on an ATA/xxx cable/bus.

If you look in the user manual for Plextor CD burners, it tells you this drive will not work properly past 8x if its on a shared cable.

I've got my hard drives each on their own ATA/133 cable, and my CD-RW and DVD-ROM each on their own cable.

[MrBigglesworth]

On my computer on the second channel I have a standard DVD Rom and on the slave of that I have a 40X LiteOn burner, never had a problem burning @ 40X either, but that may be due to the DVD Rom not being used at the time.

[jautor]

I seriously doubt the IDE bus would be an issue here. Even *IF* the HD-DirecTiVo was using the ancient UltraATA/33 specification, they should have sufficient bandwidth. I think it's likely that the box uses either UltraATA/66 or UltraATA/100. The HD-TiVo's worst case (I'm rounding) is 19.2Mb/s times 3 (2 record, 1 playback), plus some overhead. Still, that's only 7.2MB/s, compared to the burst rates available on the bus of 66MB/s or more. Bits vs. Bytes - big difference...

Now, if the unit can get all of this data on and off a single drive, a two-drive system should be easier to keep up with. Since we're not adding bandwidth (you can still only do 3 HD streams max.), best case, you'll still be able to stream off of one of the drives while the other one is seeking to get the next track...

Yes, yes, nothing is that simple, but remember also that TiVo's data access is probably very sequential (big files), so most of the time, the drive(s) is able to burst efficiently. And yes, they most certainly are using the DMA modes, since their architecture allows them to send data between the receiver (or encoder in the standalone TiVos) and the disk, or from disk to decoder, without that data travelling through the main CPU/memory.

Feldon is right, though, we're not even sure it has the ability. But it's not the IDE bus to blame. Heck, it's probably not even an electrical issue. If anything, it'll be a software, thermal, or mechanical issue that prevents it...

Jeff

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
Based on seeing 2 hard drives fight for bandwidth on every computer I've ever used with 2 drives on an ATA/xxx cable/bus.

If you look in the user manual for Plextor CD burners, it tells you this drive will not work properly past 8x if its on a shared cable.

I've got my hard drives each on their own ATA/133 cable, and my CD-RW and DVD-ROM each on their own cable. That's because when you're sharing a hard drive with a CD/DVD recorder, every increase in speed you get from a faster recorder also requires faster hard drive access. So (just making up numbers) if your recorder at 1x needs 1MB/second, then you're using 1MB/second for the recorder and 1MB/second for the hard drive to read the data to be recorded, or a total of 2MB/second. Then at 8x the recorder would need 8MB/second to handle the data it's writing, and it'd have to be reading it from the hard drive at 8MB/second too, for a total of 16MB/second over the IDE channel.

The DirecTV HD DVR is going to need XXmb/second of bandwidth to do it's writing and reading from the single hard drive. Adding another hard drive isn't going to require it read or write faster or more data, just from/to different locations.

There's no practical reason it couldn't perform properly with 2 hard drives on a shared IDE cable.

[hongcho]

2 HD recording + 1 HD reading... That's 3 x 19 Mbps, which is around 60 Mbps. Well, there will be seeks and other data access and stuff, so it may need to be a bit higher. But that seems within even the 5400 rpm disks.

Hong.

[rogo]

Right, 60 megabits / per second.... <8 megabytes / second.... Chump change for the bus.

[Gromit]

I hope I didn't overlook the answers in the FAQ or the rest of the thread, but I'm curious about the following:

I have a single LNB dish, a 2 x 4 switch and 2 DirecTiVo receivers.

DirecTV appears to offer a "SAT-C" upgrade kit for free, but doesn't that require an oval dual-LNB dish to begin with? I'm guessing that I'm going to need to replace my round dish. What's the best option for doing that?

What switch will I need? Will the antenna for local channels run to my switch or directly to the HD-DirecTiVo? Would the switch be a 3 x 4? Could I use my current DirecTiVo box along with the new HD box? I'm guessing that would require a 3 x 6 switch and a lot of holes in the side of my house to allow those cables to get to the receivers.

antennaweb.org shows that I need a multi-directional, powered antenna (25 miles away). The map does show that signals would come from various directions, but the only channels I'm interested in all come from the same general compass area. Is it safe to assume that I could get away with a smaller, directional antenna or is that just a trial and error thing?

Thanks!

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Gromit
I hope I didn't overlook the answers in the FAQ or the rest of the thread, but I'm curious about the following:

I have a single LNB dish, a 2 x 4 switch and 2 DirecTiVo receivers.

DirecTV appears to offer a "SAT-C" upgrade kit for free, but doesn't that require an oval dual-LNB dish to begin with? I'm guessing that I'm going to need to replace my round dish. What's the best option for doing that?

What switch will I need? Will the antenna for local channels run to my switch or directly to the HD-DirecTiVo? Would the switch be a 3 x 4? Could I use my current DirecTiVo box along with the new HD box? I'm guessing that would require a 3 x 6 switch and a lot of holes in the side of my house to allow those cables to get to the receivers.

antennaweb.org shows that I need a multi-directional, powered antenna (25 miles away). The map does show that signals would come from various directions, but the only channels I'm interested in all come from the same general compass area. Is it safe to assume that I could get away with a smaller, directional antenna or is that just a trial and error thing?

Thanks! You need the 3-LNB elliptical dish or the newer Phase III 3-LNB dish; DirecTV will provide that to you free or at low cost when you add HD to your configuration... just call and talk to them about it. They'll also deal with your multiswitch, including if you need more than 4 outputs. The multiswitch will be 4x4 or 4x8 or 5x4 or 5x8 (5 inputs including the 4 LNB signals and an over the air antenna). So if you've got a place inside for the multiswitch, you'll have 4 coax cables from the dish plus a coax cable from your antenna involved in coming into the house.

Receiving over-the-air really is an art more than a science and can be affected by surrounding terrain and buildings and trees, but if everything's within 25 miles, you should have a really good chance of getting that cluster of stations within the same general direction of just about any decent antenna. If all you need is UHF for the digital channels in your area, look at the Channel Master 4228 antenna... and possibly a preamp like the Channel Master 7777 or 7775; if you also need VHF, that's still a good antenna and you could add a compact VHF-only antenna to it. Nothing's really safe to assume; expect some trial and error involved in getting things positioned and aimed correctly. Having a rotator wouldn't be a bad idea since it'd let you experiment from the comfort of your living room.

[Gromit]

Thanks! I just checked and the stations I need are UHF only (no VHF). I guess that makes it a bit easier. I'll check out the Channel Master 4228. Ooops, NBC is VHF.

Is there a problem with having my switch outside? That just makes it easier to run the lines upstairs (2 story family room makes things difficult). I'm guessing it doesn't matter either way. It sounds like the OTA antenna signal can go to the switch or the receiver. I'll have to figure out which will be easier.

I think I'm going to be OK with the OTA signal strength, I just hope I can get away with putting the antenna in the attic vs on the roof.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Gromit
Thanks! I just checked and the stations I need are UHF only (no VHF). I guess that makes it a bit easier. I'll check out the Channel Master 4228.

Is there a problem with having my switch outside? That just makes it easier to run the lines upstairs (2 story family room makes things difficult). I'm guessing it doesn't matter either way. It sounds like the OTA antenna signal can go to the switch or the receiver. I'll have to figure out which will be easier.

I think I'm going to be OK with the OTA signal strength, I just hope I can get away with putting the antenna in the attic vs on the roof. If you get an outdoor-rated powered multiswitch like the Terk BMS-58 5x8 unit, ~$100, no problem putting it outside, the antenna feeds into it, and every signal is amplified so you don't lose strength because of all the splitting, and it receives power over a separate coax cable from a transformer inside someplace. There are some powered multiswitches that are indoor-only so would need to be in a weatherproof enclosure if mounted outside. That gives you a little more flexibility to have the OTA antenna signals everywhere there's satellite signals, but if you need OTA only in one place, a direct wire run from the antenna is good, too.

As long as you've got only a single layer of standard shingles and obstructions in the signal path in your attic (like a firnace/air handler unit), an attic install will probably present no problems to receiving the stations you want. And the CM4228 is compact enough to fit in most attics, though you might need to pay attention to your attic access if the opening is small. :)

[Gromit]

Yeah, I'm not sure how I'll get the thing in the attic. It's not huge, but it's big enough to make me think this isn't going to be easy. I checked again and NBC is on VHF, so I guess I'll have to get some kind of VHF antenna too.

I bet a lot of people don't bother with all of this setup. Especially those who just want to bring their TV home and plug it in. It will be nice when/if DirecTV offers HD locals. At least that will simplify things a bit.

[BrettStah]

Originally posted by Gromit
I bet a lot of people don't bother with all of this setup. Especially those who just want to bring their TV home and plug it in. It will be nice when/if DirecTV offers HD locals. At least that will simplify things a bit. Gromit, I tend to agree that a lot of people will not want to go through the hassles to receive OTA HD signals. DirecTV is going to probably have to start including that as part of HD installation deals (in parts of the country where it's possible to receive HD channels via antenna), or provide the locals via satellite, as you mentioned.

[MikeSRC]

Attached is another picture of the back of the unit:

[llogan]

Originally posted by Gromit
Yeah, I'm not sure how I'll get the thing in the attic. It's not huge, but it's big enough to make me think this isn't going to be easy. I checked again and NBC is on VHF, so I guess I'll have to get some kind of VHF antenna too.

I bet a lot of people don't bother with all of this setup. Especially those who just want to bring their TV home and plug it in. It will be nice when/if DirecTV offers HD locals. At least that will simplify things a bit.

You could also get a yagi antenna, that has both UHF and VHF elements on it you can check out some of the different ones available at www.starkelectronic.com

and the whole antenna thing can be a total pain in the rear, I do installations on the side and it can be a real challenge in certain situations. Installing wiring for ethernet, phone, cable, satellite, etc. is just so much easier than dealing with an antenna but for some, like me, it's a necessary evil.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Gromit
Yeah, I'm not sure how I'll get the thing in the attic. It's not huge, but it's big enough to make me think this isn't going to be easy. I checked again and NBC is on VHF, so I guess I'll have to get some kind of VHF antenna too.

I bet a lot of people don't bother with all of this setup. Especially those who just want to bring their TV home and plug it in. It will be nice when/if DirecTV offers HD locals. At least that will simplify things a bit. The 4228 can be disassembled a bit to get it through smaller openings if you have to.

[gfb107]

I've been reading a lot here is the HD-TiVo section the last hew days, but have one question that I haven't seen addressed, or even asked. It may well be that we simply don't know the answer yet.

Will activation of the HD DTiVo require subscription to an HD programming package from DirecTV? Or can I use is it strictly with SD DirecTV and Digital OTA programming?

Essentially, can I get one without having to change my monthly subscription costs, other than add a mirroring fee? I fully expect to see a 12 month commitment to remain a DirecTV customer.

[MCodanti]

Neither the VE or GG preorders said anything about having to add the HD package, though I suspect that DirecTV is thinking that people will, and that after they figure out that people aren't that they will require an HD premium for at least a year. (HBO, Showtime, or the HD package.)

They want people to subscribe so they have money to add more stuff, or at least that is how I see it.

[Gromit]

Originally posted by dswallow
The 4228 can be disassembled a bit to get it through smaller openings if you have to.

That will probably get it through the entrance to my attic (pull down stairs, standard size I suppose). Since I have to pull in 1 VHF channel too though, I'll check out the yagi that llogan mentioned.

Originally posted by MCodanti
Neither the VE or GG preorders said anything about having to add the HD package, though I suspect that DirecTV is thinking that people will, and that after they figure out that people aren't that they will require an HD premium for at least a year. (HBO, Showtime, or the HD package.)

They want people to subscribe so they have money to add more stuff, or at least that is how I see it.

I figured the HD package was a requirement to get the free dish upgrade. I'll need the dish but I figured HBO and the other HD channels will be worth it. I might even be able to sit through hockey on HDNet. :)

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Subscription to DIRECTV's HD programming package is not required.

In fact, you will get the following HD channels, HBO, SHOWTIME, *CBS and *FOX, at no additional charge, if you subscribe to the respective SD programming.

* CBS and *FOX HD channels are available in the 16 O&O markets only.

[paulj]

Sorry, I'm really confused. There are 3 satellites, 3 LNBs. I'm okay with this. I'm guessing that with 3 LNBs you have 3 cables out of the dish, right? Now the HD-DVR250 says it supports 2 digital satellites and I think it has 2 connectors for this. How do you go from 3 LNBs to 2 satellite inputs?

You need the 3-LNB elliptical dish or the newer Phase III 3-LNB dish; DirecTV will provide that to you free or at low cost when you add HD to your configuration... just call and talk to them about it. They'll also deal with your multiswitch, including if you need more than 4 outputs. The multiswitch will be 4x4 or 4x8 or 5x4 or 5x8 (5 inputs including the 4 LNB signals and an over the air antenna). So if you've got a place inside for the multiswitch, you'll have 4 coax cables from the dish plus a coax cable from your antenna involved in coming into the house.

Now my head is really spinning. How did we go from 3 LNBs to 4 LNB signals?

Lastly, is there a simple tutorial on switches? Something I can read to help me make sense of the above quote?

paul

[BrettStah]

The Phase III 3-LNB dish has a built-in multiswitch, which outputs 4 cables. You can run those 4 outputs into a 4x8 multiswitch, which will give you enough outputs to support up to 4 DirecTivos if you'd like.

[Darin]

Originally posted by paulj
I'm guessing that with 3 LNBs you have 3 cables out of the dish, right? Now the HD-DVR250 says it supports 2 digital satellites and I think it has 2 connectors for this. How do you go from 3 LNBs to 2 satellite inputs? Now my head is really spinning. How did we go from 3 LNBs to 4 LNB signals
Well, it doesn't really work quite like that. Technically, for each LNB, you need two cables, one for even transponders, and one for odd, because a single cable can't contain both at the same time (Except the Sat-C, or 110 LNB, which only has even transponders). BUT, because they only have a handful of transponders on 110 & 119, they "mix" the even transponders from 110 in with the 119 transponders. THATS why there's four cables: two for 101, and two for the mixed 110/119 signals. A cable can only carry one of the four "sets" of signals at one time, and that is the purpose of the multiswitch: To give each receiver the right set. So, with the four outputs from the Phase 3 dish, there are enough for each cable to be dedicated to one set, and the multiswitch connects each output to each receiver to the right input, depending on which set it requests.

The two inputs on the TiVo have nothing to do with any of this: for all intents and purposes, it is two separate DirecTV receivers (it has two tuners, to tune to two different channels at one time, even if they are on different satellites). Therefore, it needs two separate inputs from the multiswitch.

[paulj]

Many thanks Darin. My current dish has the switch built in so I had forgotten about all of this. Interesting that you pretty much HAVE to have a switch with a dish now.

paul

[feldon23]

A 3LNB dish sees the 3 satellites.

The FOUR wires that come out of the dish are all "switched" outputs which means that any of the 4 wires can see either side of any of the 3 satellites.

This is why you cannot use a splitter, because signal tones and voltages are sent up the wire FROM the DirecTV receiver TO the dish (or multiswitch) asking for the satellite feed they need to display the requested channel.

[feldon23]

Ok, I've updated the FAQ. How's every 2 days? :D

I've added my 3 sentence description of multiswitches above as well as 2 new HDTiVo-specific diagrams which should explain all permutations of 4xX and 2xX switches.

[paulj]

The FOUR wires that come out of the dish are all "switched" outputs which means that any of the 4 wires can see either side of any of the 3 satellites.
Hmm, if this is true why would need need a switch if you only had two TiVos??

paul

[feldon23]

Because for 2 TiVos, you need 4 inputs (tuners) which can each see either the even or odd side of the 101 satellite depending on what channel you're watching/recording?

You can't get all of the 101 satellite on 1 wire without stacking. The fact that you only need 101 odd and 101 even allows you to use a 2x4, 2x6, or 2x8 multiswitch (as diagrammed) to feed DirecTV TiVos.

For 101/110/119, you need a 4x? multiswitch.

[jautor]

Originally posted by paulj
Hmm, if this is true why would need need a switch if you only had two TiVos??

*IF* you have the 3LNB dish with the integrated multiswitch (4x4), and you only want to use 2 TiVo's, you're all set. No additional multiswitch required.

Jeff

[Gromit]

Originally posted by jautor
*IF* you have the 3LNB dish with the integrated multiswitch (4x4), and you only want to use 2 TiVo's, you're all set. No additional multiswitch required.

Jeff

That sounds good. I'll have 2 TiVos, so I guess I won't need another multiswitch.

Under this scenario, I guess the OTA antenna goes directly to the HD TiVo? If you have a multi-switch with an OTA input, can you go that route as well? Does the OTA signal then go to each of the 2 lines going to each TiVo? If that's an option, I'll have to decide if I want to avoid drilling another hole in the side of my house and go the multi-switch option or just run the OTA directly into the house. My 2 story family room makes it difficult to run a line from the attic to the room through the walls. I pretty much have to go outside and into the family room via a drilled hole.

[hdeditor]

Originally posted by feldon23
Based on seeing 2 hard drives fight for bandwidth on every computer I've ever used with 2 drives on an ATA/xxx cable/bus.

Maybe the future for HDTV TiVo is Serial ATA?

[jautor]

Originally posted by Gromit
Under this scenario, I guess the OTA antenna goes directly to the HD TiVo? If you have a multi-switch with an OTA input, can you go that route as well? Does the OTA signal then go to each of the 2 lines going to each TiVo?

There's a separate OTA input on the back of the unit. So worst case, you'd need an un-diplexor to separate the OTA signal from one of the sat lines. I've never personally used the diplexor solution, but from what I've read around here (and avsforum), they do work, but at the expense of some signal loss on the OTA side. If you've got strong OTA signals, that may not be an issue.

But in my mind, if you *can* run a separate line from the antenna, you should... Now, if that costs money, then I'd certainly try the diplexor route first.

Jeff

[mercurial]

To bring up a controversial question... Any idea if it will support Caller ID display? Should have a unified hardware base so no problem with some models/hardware refreshes not having CID support in the modem... Kinda getting used to it again with the new Samsung SIR-TS160 that I got with the $99 HD TV deal- be nice if they brought it to TiVo finally.

[Wayne Bundrick]

Since digital OTA reception can be so hit-or-miss, the diplexor would be the first thing I'd take out of the equation if I couldn't get a signal.

[BrettStah]

Originally posted by mercurial
To bring up a controversial question... Any idea if it will support Caller ID display? There is no Caller ID feature, from all reports I've seen (I haven't personally laid eyes on these boxes, but I've been trying to keep up). They could probably add in such a feature later on...

[feldon23]

For $900, you get a DirecTV receiver that, although it has TiVo, DD, and HDTV capabilities, it's actually a bare bones DirecTV platform.

[o2manyfish]

Perhaps a stupid question, but over the past years I keep noticing that the quality of DirectTV broadcasting keeps declining. So many stations that used to be supersharp seem to be fuzzed now that more stations have been added to the stream.

With the HD programming, is the picture quality guaranteed to any degree ? As more HD stations are added to the sats are we going to see even greater degradation of the picture quality on the standard def stations ?

Thanks,

Dave B

[Skyboss]

I just can't wait for 2006.

HD TiVo with Open Cable QAM tuner for scrambled and unscrambled. Home network option. And NFL Sunday Ticket via cable.

I live for that day... I really do... :D

Running out of patience with Open Cable and Directv.... Sick of all the equipment. Someone please simplify my life for me.

[Darin]

Originally posted by o2manyfish
With the HD programming, is the picture quality guaranteed to any degree ? As more HD stations are added to the sats are we going to see even greater degradation of the picture quality on the standard def stations ?
For the relatively short term (next couple of years?), I think the PQ of HD is a fairly safe bet. DirecTV only gets in the neighborhood of 30-35Mbps per transponder, which is JUST enough to put two HD channels on. Doing three would be a big enough difference that I could not seeing them trying to push it that far. As HD becomes more "mainstream", and HD possibly grows into FSS transponders (which I believe have 45-50Mpbs each), or maybe even the Ka band, then their flexibility to make incremental changes that they'd hope we wouldn't notice will increase. They are also getting new equipment that better allows them to mix SD & HD channels on one transponder. So in the long term, it probably just depends on how tight and valuable bandwidth is for them, as well as how marketable PQ becomes.

FWIW, even OTA HD faces the same concerns, as local stations start getting lured into using subchannels as a form of revenue, and reducing the bandwidth available to the HD stream. The only thing that will likely prevent this from happening is the demand for high quality being high enough that they can associate money with it.

[feldon23]

We're already seeing overcompression of HD locals as local affiliates crowd out the HD channel with digital versions of their analog channels and Doppler radar feeds.

These people don't realize that 19.2Mbps is the MINIMUM bandwidth for HDTV to not start breaking up and looking terrible. 19.2Mbps just happens to be what each ATSC channel has.

Without turning this into a rehash of dozens of topics with thousands of posts on the AVS HDTV Programming forum (I recommend heading there to learn more about HD programs), the 2002 Olympics were completely unwatchable in HD here in Houston. KTRK-13 had a subchannel of their analog feed which was enough to cause every sporting event from the Olympics to look like pixelated crap.

Fortunately I had access to an HDTV with the national HD cable variety channel 'HDNet' which was also responsible for getting HD coverage of the Olympics available to NBC in the first place (Along with Japan's NHK).

[snooplives]

Originally posted by Skyboss
I just can't wait for 2006.

HD TiVo with Open Cable QAM tuner for scrambled and unscrambled. Home network option. And NFL Sunday Ticket via cable.

I live for that day... I really do... :D

Running out of patience with Open Cable and Directv.... Sick of all the equipment. Someone please simplify my life for me.

Didn't Dtv just re-up with the NFL for exclusive rights to the Sunday Ticket through the end of the decade? They paid close to a billion dollars. I don't think you'll ever see the Sunday Ticket on Cable. Especially now that Murdoch owns Directv. He will overpay to keep it exclusively his.

Snooplives

[Bigg]

Originally posted by feldon23
DirecTV enthusiasts have also been known to use 3 separate round dishes, each pointed at 101, 110, and 119 degree positions!
I know that if you have a dish @ 101 and a dish @ 119, you can use a 4x? multiswitch, but how do you do it with three dishes? You would have to combine SAT B and SAT C somehow. could you do this (twice) with a cable splitter b/c they are on different freqencies? How would you do this?

[Darin]

You HAVE to use a Sat-C LNB for the 110 dish, and you HAVE to use the Sat-C combiner that comes in the Sat-C kit.

[Bigg]

Ok, that makes sense. And then you go with SAT b/c and a into a 4x?. I get it.

[feldon23]

So you get 3 regular dishes and replace one of the LNBs with the one you get in the Sat-C kit since Sat C (110) is an entirely different type of signal.

Then you use the combiner to merge the 110 signals into one side of the 119 feed, and plug the 4 wires into the 4x4 multiswitch.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
So you get 3 regular dishes and replace one of the LNBs with the one you get in the Sat-C kit since Sat C (110) is an entirely different type of signal. It's not as easy as that; the SatC mounting is different than regular LNB's; you couldn't just put it on a regular 18" dish LNB arm.

[nabsltd]

Originally posted by dswallow
It's not as easy as that; the SatC mounting is different than regular LNB'sHuh? It has different internals for shifting the frequencies so that it can be combined with the Sat-B signals, but the LNB housing is identical in size and shape.

[feldon23]

Nothing a little duct tape won't fix. :)

[Darin]

Originally posted by dswallow
the SatC mounting is different than regular LNB's
Is it really? If so, it's a pretty subtle difference, because I never even noticed it. I have a single 30" dish pointed at 101, and a Dish500 dish picking up 110 & 119. For the sake of this post (http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=21401&highlight=huge#post21401), where I described making the Sat C kit fit on the Dish500, I took this picture (http://home.comcast.net/~dscline/CreviceTool/LNBs.JPG) to show the difference in the Dishnetwork LNB mount, and the SatC (warning, I never resized that picture, so it's huge). It looks pretty similar to what I remember the regular DirecTV mounts to be. Of course, I lost my memory MANY years ago. :)

[Street81]

I just got TIVO 2 and I my cable company is going to start offering HD broadcasts. I have an HDTV so I can't wait.... The problem is the TIVO, I know it cant record HDTV but will the HD broadcast still work with the TIVO2 hooked up or do I have to unplug the TIVO. Any advice or insight would be Great!!

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Darin
Is it really? If so, it's a pretty subtle difference, because I never even noticed it. I have a single 30" dish pointed at 101, and a Dish500 dish picking up 110 & 119. For the sake of this post (http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=21401&highlight=huge#post21401), where I described making the Sat C kit fit on the Dish500, I took this picture (http://home.comcast.net/~dscline/CreviceTool/LNBs.JPG) to show the difference in the Dishnetwork LNB mount, and the SatC (warning, I never resized that picture, so it's huge). It looks pretty similar to what I remember the regular DirecTV mounts to be. Of course, I lost my memory MANY years ago. :) I may've been confusing myself... the SatC LNB is different, sitting 1/2" or so further away from the dish, though the LNB feedhorn looks like it might be placed identically. That's what I'd meant, though I originally had thought the feedhorn was slightly differently located as well -- not that the mounting shape was in any manner different.

[nabsltd]

Originally posted by dswallow
I may've been confusing myself... the SatC LNB is different, sitting 1/2" or so further away from the dish, though the LNB feedhorn looks like it might be placed identically.I'd have to climb on the roof to be sure, but I think all 3 of mine (on an old 24" oval dish) are pretty close to "in line".

Any difference in positioning, though, is just to get it aligned into the right place to pick up the 110° satellite. On a single round dish, you can accomplish this by just moving the dish, as long as the LNB is at the focus of the dish.

[llogan]

the Sat C LNB mounts no differently from any other LNB, but dswallow is right that the actual LNB portion is just ever so slightly further from the dish

bottom line: doesn't affect your installation of a Sat C LNB on a regular dish at all.

If I weren't worried about aesthetics, I'd definitely go the route of having one dish for every bird.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by llogan
If I weren't worried about aesthetics, I'd definitely go the route of having one dish for every bird. I think I'd tend towards the Gainmaster myself. Bigger. More signal sucking capability. ;)

[nabsltd]

He didn't say what size dish he would use for every satellite. :)

I'm planning on using a 30" dish for each bird when I move to a new house farther out in the country.

[Bigg]

Hiw about a 48" for each? :D:D:D LOL
Street81: just plug them into a different inout in the TV or audio rec, and split the cable before it goes to the HD cable box and the TiVo.
EDIT:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?CAT=Antennas%20DirecTV%20Dish&PROD=SKAUL120
along with another dish from someone else maybe...
DISHPHARM!!!!
EDIT2: the heck with the asthetics... the signal is all that matters... !!! :D:D:D

[llogan]

I want a dish I can sit in and that I can rotate via remote (visions of laying out in the sun on my dish...and adjusting tilt as the sun moves....

hmm wonder if my skull would act to focus the signal....brain cancer?

[Bigg]

LOL Some bad sunburn... LOL :D:D:D

[Marty M]

I'd like to thank Feldon23 for the great FAQ and pose several additional questions that I couldn't find answers for. Any responses are greatly appreciated.

I am currently an HD DISH customer and am seriously considering dumping DISH and my investment in that equipment and switching to HDTV TiVo. (Just read the review of the 921 on Satellite Guys -- bear in mind that these folks try to give DISH every possible break.)

(1) Will the HD-DVR250 include a signal strength meter for HD OTA? That is very important in terms of accurate aiming of an antenna for OTA reception. The DISH 6000 includes one that is easily accessed with one push of the "view" button ; the new DISH 921 does not and has been harshly criticized for the omission.

(2) I'll rountinely copy programs from the HD-DVR250 to a Pioneer Elite DVD-R. The Pioneer only has an S-Video or composite input at 480i -- which would be typical of most recording devices or a VCR.

(a) Am I correct in my understanding that an HD 1080i recorded broadcast can be quickly switched to 480i SD for archival recording to a DVD-R or VCR via a button on the front of the HD-DVR250 or the remote?

(b) I assumed that the HD-DVR250 either would output a standard signal (480i) via all three outputs simultaneously or would act like the DISH 6000 which automatically switches HD to component and SD to S-Video/Composite.

Or do you have to go into the setup and manually switch from component to S-video output each and every time?

If so, that would be INCREDIBLY DUMB and close to a fatal flaw in the product. Many people will use the TiVO unit to routinely transfer SD to a VCR or DVD-R to archive programs. I do it all the time -- would I have to go into the setup each and every time and change the outputs? And then go back into setup to change them back every time I watch an HD program?

(3) What is the smallest external mast diameter that the Phase III dish can be mounted on when it is screwed down?

(4) If I buy the HD-DVR250 and two standard receivers -- would the switch that comes with the Phase III dish be enough? For both the HD and two standard receivers to receive all possible channels?

(5) In addition to the HD-DVR250 I planned on buying the Huges Executive Director HAH-SA. The manual is rather confusing -- can it take only 27 total favorite channels or is it 27 x 3 for a total of 81 favorite channels?

[Perrin]

Originally posted by feldon23
Fortunately every HDTV Set-Top Box on the market lets you pick the output resolution and converts between them. Very few HDTVs can handle 720p natively and many Plasmas can't handle 1080i so this is the perfect solution.


I just got Cox HDTV service, and the set top box they gave me doesn't allow me to pick output resolutions. The setup menu only lets me set up preferences...favorite channels that sort of thing.
I can't even figure out what model box this is. All I can tell is its a Motorola...no model number anywhere on the silver box.

Makes me wonder if that's why ABC shows don't look nearly as good as CBS shows.

[vonzoog]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by feldon23
[b]What HDTV-enabled TiVo models will be available?


It is not known what other recording capabilities this TiVo will have or whether tuners can be active simultaneously. At this time, there is no indication that this TiVo will be compatible with any HDTV signals provided by cable TV providers in the US. This may change before product launch in light of QAM256 and OpenCable technologies.



I'm I to understand that you may be able to hook a cable feed into the OTA input on the new HD TiVo? If so, could this solve the problem of local HD channels? I.E. : Could you possibly run a basic cable feed with local HD station through the OTA input and still have all of D* HD prgramming with the D* subscribtion? Would the new HD TiVo unit be able to record the cable feed HD broadcast?

And one last thing, could someone please explain "QAM256" to me.

Thanks,

[llogan]

what are you smokin? I don't see any way that the OTA input would work to allow you to record the cable HD feed. NO WAY, NO HOW, nuh-uh

I can always be wrong but I really don't think so...

[hongcho]

There are many ways to send a signal. QAM (quadrature amplitude modulation) is one used by cable companies, and 8VSB (vestigial side band) is one used by ATSC for OTA. The satellites use something else. You can compare with radios (AM and FM).

The HD Tivo can decode signals encoded with 8VSB (for OTA) and sattelite. It would not know what to do with QAM signals.

Also, most cable signals are encrypted QAM signals, which means that most generic QAM tuner won't work.

Hong.

[BrettStah]

Originally posted by vonzoog
[I'm I to understand that you may be able to hook a cable feed into the OTA input on the new HD TiVo? If so, could this solve the problem of local HD channels? I.E. : Could you possibly run a basic cable feed with local HD station through the OTA input and still have all of D* HD prgramming with the D* subscribtion? Would the new HD TiVo unit be able to record the cable feed HD broadcast?

And one last thing, could someone please explain "QAM256" to me.

Thanks, Did you miss the heading right above the section you quoted that says "Standalone HD TiVo -- in development"? It specifically does NOT refer to the DirecTV/Tivo model, which is described in a different section.

[vonzoog]

Hong,

Thanks for the explanation. That clears things up for me.

I guess I will go have a smoke now on llogan :).

[Hootydog]

"DirecTV HD TiVos come with a High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) connector with High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP). A cable is included for TVs with HDCP-compliant DVI inputs."

Looking for some good news, pretty please.

It seems I took a different route than some here. I geared up with HD before TIVO via the Samsung TS-160 for OTA and Directv's offerings in 2002. As much as I know I'll love TIVO, (own stock in it but no products) I've been waiting for the HD version to come out before jumping in.

Now I'm not sure I'll be able to take advantage to record my beloved HD.

I have an "older" Mitsubishi WS-55819 made in January 2002. It does not have DVI, HDMI or HDCP. I had read before that would not be a problem to take advantage of the new DirecTV HD-Tivo. I believed I would be able to use my 3 component inputs to my Mits.

Now I'm not so sure. Will the HD-Tivo work without 1) a new TV with digital video connections @ 3k+, 2) the Mits promise module @1k, or 3) some kinda $800+ adapter / converter.

Please tell me there will be a simple hook up to get me HD-Tivo. :confused:

Chappy

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Hootydog
Please tell me there will be a simple hook up to get me HD-Tivo. :confused: The DirecTV HD DVR has component output, too.

[Hootydog]

Originally posted by dswallow
The DirecTV HD DVR has component output, too. So no worries for me then? , cpt maybe future copy right protection issues?.. or am I safe there too as long as I output only to my in house display(s).

Chappy

[jautor]

Originally posted by Hootydog
So no worries for me then? , cpt maybe future copy right protection issues?.. or am I safe there too as long as I output only to my in house display(s).

Chappy

You're fine... IIRC, HD component outputs are not affected by any of the copyright protection issues - they were specifically called out because of all the HDTV sets like yours already in the field. So you should always be able to watch HD on the component out...

Jeff

[Hootydog]

So I can order the Hughes Direct TV TIVO HD-DVR and anticipate it to work fine with my set up?

...besides, of course, the issues raised in this thread (which I don't think I'll suffer from), and any "normal" early adapter yet-to-be-identified glitches. ;)

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Hootydog
So I can order the Hughes Direct TV TIVO HD-DVR and anticipate it to work fine with my set up?

...besides, of course, the issues raised in this thread (which I don't think I'll suffer from), and any "normal" early adapter yet-to-be-identified glitches. ;) Yes. It will work with your display.

[Darin]

Originally posted by jautor
You're fine... IIRC, HD component outputs are not affected by any of the copyright protection issues...
I think TECHNICALLY (legally), that is only true of the OTA stations, and possibly basic channels (??). I haven't kept up with everything, but I THINK they can downrez the output of non-protected outputs IF it's premium content (like PPVs, HBO, etc.). Whether or not they'll actually take advantage of that, is yet to be seen.

[Marty M]

ANY RESPONSES WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

(1) Will the HD-DVR250 include a signal strength meter for HD OTA?

(2) I'll rountinely copy programs from the HD-DVR250 to a Pioneer Elite DVD-R. The Pioneer only has an S-Video or composite input at 480i -- which would be typical of most recording devices or a VCR.

My understanding is that you can easily switch from standard definition to high definition with the remote or the front of the unit itself.

But what happens to the connections on the back?

Does the unit switch automatically from HD component to SD S-video or composite?

Robert with Value Electronics says it does.

However, Feldon23 in a response on a different thread said that you must go into the set-up each time to switch from Component to S-Video/Composite.

This is an IMPORTANT ISSUE for anyone who plans on transferring and archiving recordings to a VCR or a DVD-R.

If Feldon is right, we'll have to go into the setup and manually switch from component to S-video output each and every time that we want to archive to a VCR.

And then have to go into setup and switch back in order to watch HD.

This would be a real pain in the b*** if Feldon is right. And is a really dumb design. I already have a stand-alone TIVO and rountinely archive recordings -- as I'm sure is true of many of the forum participants.

Can anyone who has seen the unit or a manual comment on how it works?

[rogo]

"...but I THINK they can downrez the output of non-protected outputs IF it's premium content"

Not really. In fact, everyone agreed this wouldn't happen in the cable deal. Now there is an out. If somehow, Hollywood railroads Dish and/or DirecTV, then cable TV can down-rez the component.

Chances of this happening? I'd say essentially zero.

Mark

[rogo]

Oh, and if Feldon really did say that, I'm fairly certain he is wrong.

It has been established that if the HD out is set for 480i, you'll get simultaneous output over composite and S-video.

To switch from component to HDMI, now that might well require a trip to the setup... But that doesn't affect the issue above.

[MCodanti]

Originally posted by Marty M
My understanding is that you can easily switch from standard definition to high definition with the remote or the front of the unit itself.

But what happens to the connections on the back?

Does the unit switch automatically from HD component to SD S-video or composite?

Robert with Value Electronics says it does.

However, Feldon23 in a response on a different thread said that you must go into the set-up each time to switch from Component to S-Video/Composite.


This has been gone over in many other threads.. TiVoPony (works for TiVo) says that when you select 480i it will output S-Video, Composite, and then either Component or HDMI based on your menu selection.

[Hootydog]

A little late but thank you for your timely and reassuring answers. Sounds like I'll be good to go as soon as March rolls around. :up:

Great thread, and forum you have. Unlike some I visit, (most) all here seem very friendly and helpful even to dense newbies like me. Personally, I have no use for trolls and personal attacks so prevalent elsewhere.

Keeping it light with opinions encouraged and BS not tolerated encourages people to keep coming back IMHO.

I look forward to continuing to track the progress of the release of HD Tivo with all your help.


Keep up the great work.


:D Chappy :D

[feldon23]

Marty M said:
do you have to go into the setup and manually switch from component to S-video output each and every time?
The FAQ could be clearer on this. When the TiVo is in 480i mode, then the S-Video and Composite outputs become active. No need to switch with the remote or button on the unit.

Marty M said:
(3) What is the smallest external mast diameter that the Phase III dish can be mounted on when it is screwed down?
This is a general DirecTV question so I'll leave that to the DTV forum.

Marty M said:
(4) If I buy the HD-DVR250 and two standard receivers -- would the switch that comes with the Phase III dish be enough? For both the HD and two standard receivers to receive all possible channels?
The diagram in the FAQ answers this.

Marty M said:
(5) In addition to the HD-DVR250 I planned on buying the Huges Executive Director HAH-SA. The manual is rather confusing -- can it take only 27 total favorite channels or is it 27 x 3 for a total of 81 favorite channels?
Not an HD TiVo question.

Marty M said:
However, Feldon23 in a response on a different thread said that you must go into the set-up each time to switch from Component to S-Video/Composite.
I was going based on early preliminary information. That info has since been updated. I will update the FAQ.

vonzoog said:
I'm I to understand that you may be able to hook a cable feed into the OTA input on the new HD TiVo? If so, could this solve the problem of local HD channels? I.E. : Could you possibly run a basic cable feed with local HD station through the OTA input and still have all of D* HD prgramming with the D* subscribtion? Would the new HD TiVo unit be able to record the cable feed HD broadcast?
Sure, this will work for South Chicago and nowhere else on earth. South Chicago has the only cable service in the USA that carries their local channels in HD "free and clear" as an 8VSB signal.

vonzoog said:
And one last thing, could someone please explain "QAM256" to me.
QAM is the standard encoding standard for 90% of cable systems in the USA. In all but a few markets, this is encrypted QAM so even if there was an HDTiVo that spoke QAM, it wouldn't have the keys/passwords neccesary to record or play this material in most markets.

[Marty M]

Thanks very much to Feldon and MCodanti for responding to my questions. It is greatly appreciated.

My apologies if I posed a question covered in previous threads -- I wouldn't have asked if I had seen those other threads. I only saw the previous thread/response by Feldon that I referenced -- why is why I asked. It is an important issue -- at least for me.

Thanks again. I will dump DISH in March and switch to HD TiVo.

[Jacquelyn]

Originally posted by feldon23
The FAQ could be clearer on this. When the TiVo is in 480i mode, then the S-Video and Composite outputs become active. No need to switch with the remote or button on the unit.

Will the 480i signal also be sent via the component output? I know this has been discussed but I'm still not clear (and info seems to still be coming in).

[feldon23]

480i is always output on S-Video, Composite, and the HDTV output you've chosen.

So either:
S-Video, Composite, Component
or:
S-Video, Composite, HDMI (DVI with adapter)