** HD TiVo and HD DirecTV TiVo FAQ **

[Jacquelyn]

Whole House Video Issue:

Well that seems to solve 95% of my initial whole house video issues.

With the limited drive size of the stock HD Tivo, our other DirecTiVos and our travel schedule - what we record on that Tivo will be "sit down and watch" programs rather than the "walk around the house" variety. With the exception of visiting the kitchen/bar which has the 2nd plasma.

I bought a component video and digital audio selector with two outputs so that took care of seeing HDTV programming on the two plasma screens via component.

Then on the few instances where one of us wanted to finish watching a program in another room, the one watching the plasma would just have to watch the 480 signal.

Not a perfect solution and one I hope gets addressed in the next version, but workable for now.

[oleus]

i currently have two dual tuner directivos and one RCA DTC100 HD dtv receiver inside my tv. this comes from the dual arm lnb with sat C and a multiswitch outside.

will i be able to utilize all the recording capacities of the hdtivo? my two directivos see all the channels except the the HD satellite, while my HD receiver gets everything. but i'm guessing with my current setup i won't be able to use dual-tuners to record two HD channels at once, will I, unless one of them is OTA.

since the new HD Tivo will be replacing one of my current directivos (and making my DTC100 obsolete)...i'm windering if i can change my multiswitch wiring?

thanks...i know this may sound confusing.

[hongcho]

With your current setting, you won't be able to record ANY HD channels.

With an HD Tivo, you will be able to record ANY TWO (2) channels whether they are on OTA, SAT or one on each.

When you replace both the dual-tuner DirecTivos and the HD receiver (3 satellite cables and possibly one OTA cable) with an HD Tivo (2 satellite cables + 1 OTA cable), you will have one satellite cable unused, and don't need to touch the multiswitch.

I hope I got that right.

Hong.

[llogan]

Everything you wrote Hong is spot on. One minor consideration, I'm unsure about what type of multiswitch he has and whether or not he'll be putting up an antenna. If he puts up an antenna and the multiswitch supports bridging the OTA signal then it might change things for him a little.

Basically, from an HD satellite perspective, Hong's totally right and nothing changes.

I'd personally recommend running a line from the antenna directly to the HD Tivo for OTA. But he may choose to input it into the multiswitch if his multiswitch is capable, which it may not be.

[oleus]

alright ....i'm a litte confused about something here. maybe i wasn't clear about my current setup.

if i run the line currently going to my HD DirecTV receiver (DTC100) into the new HD DirectTivo, *and* the two feeds currently going to my directivo (that is currently in the same room as the HD Directv receiver inside my TV), AND the OTA antenna i have in the room (RCA double bowtie), why would i not be able to record any HD?

as it stand now i use two different directv receivers in the room i have my HDTV in. one is inside my tv that I use mainly for HD (but i get all the channels) and then the dual tuner Directivo for recording.

you see, i am planning on not using the DirectV HD receiver inside my TV when i get an HD Directivo and also replacing the old directivo with this new unit.

[bigpuma]

Originally posted by oleus

if i run the line currently going to my HD DirecTV receiver (DTC100) into the new HD DirectTivo, *and* the two feeds currently going to my directivo (that is currently in the same room as the HD Directv receiver inside my TV), AND the OTA antenna i have in the room (RCA double bowtie), why would i not be able to record any HD?


You would, although you would only run 2 of the 3 DirecTV lines into the HD Directivo plus 1 OTA line (split into 2 by the HD directivo).

[oleus]

well, i also seem to remember that my directv installer said that 1 (mayhe 2) of my directivo inputs had access to the HD satellite just because of the way the multiswitch works

i guess i need to figure out which of my tuners has access to NASA tv, because that means that input would have HD access, right? they're still on the same bird as the DirecTV HD, right?

[hongcho]

> well, i also seem to remember that my directv installer said that 1 (mayhe 2) of my directivo inputs had access to the HD satellite just because of the way the multiswitch works

Your DirecTV tuner (be it an SD recever, an HD receiver, or an SD Tivo) can "see" any signals on any transponder from three satellites (if you have all three LNBs, that is).

It's just that only an HD receiver will know what to do with an HD DirecTV channel (e.g., HDNet, HBO-HD, etc.).

> if i run the line currently going to my HD DirecTV receiver (DTC100) into the new HD DirectTivo, *and* the two feeds currently going to my directivo (that is currently in the same room as the HD Directv receiver inside my TV), AND the OTA antenna i have in the room (RCA double bowtie), why would i not be able to record any HD?

Currently, you have

- One (1) sat cable to DTC100.
- One (1) OTA cable to DTC100.
- Two (2) sat cables to SD DirecTivo.

Correct? With this set-up, as I said above, the SD DirecTivo won't know what to do with HD channels, such as HDNet. So, you are not able to record HD channels. You can record HBO, but you are not able to record HBOHD on 509.

If you intend to keep your SD DirecTivo with the new HD DirecTivo, you are short of one sat cable since an HD DirecTivo needs two (2) sat cables. However, if you get rid of the SD DirecTivo, you will have one (1) sat cable left over.

And only with an HD DirecTivo, you will be able to record HD channels.

Is this any clearer, or am I confusing you even further?

Hong.

[tach32000]

I have no HD equiptment at the moment, but I am looking.

I called DirectTv and was told that with and HD receiver and dish, I could view HD programming off of my network feeds, ie. CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX if the show that the network was broadcasting was in HD.

Is this correct?

Thanks,
Brian

[oleus]

hongcho -

this is my exact setup :

i have 5 lines coming into my house. 2 pairs of 2 for the two directivos, and one for my HD receiver (that line sees all 3 birds - the 4 directivo lines do not , although i think 1 of the 4 does because of teh way my multisiwtch is routed). I plan on dumping the downstairs SD Directivo for the HD Tivo (i also plan on not using the DTC100 anymore)...so that would be 3 feeds (1 HD) available for the HD Tivo, right? (and a 4th from my OTA antenna)...

by my calculations i'll have full dual tuner SD recording with the HD Tivo, plsu 1 tuner of DirectV HD and OTA. is this correct?

i know that the regular SD Directivos can't record HD...i was actually asking about the upcoming HD Tivos and my setup.

my main concern is whether i'll need a new multiswitch. i know my current setup won't allow for simultaneous recording of 2 DirectV HD channels...but i am willing to live with that since i can record OTA simultaneously.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by tach32000
I have no HD equiptment at the moment, but I am looking.

I called DirectTv and was told that with and HD receiver and dish, I could view HD programming off of my network feeds, ie. CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX if the show that the network was broadcasting was in HD.

Is this correct? Only if you also connected an antenna to it and you had local stations broadcasting a digital signal in your area -- and what you see isn't limited to HD broadcasts.

Friday, CBS-HD will be available on DirecTV by satellite, but only to a subset of people -- generally those in areas served by CBS-owned&operated stations.

[tach32000]

Thank you for replying, and I apologize for asking this another way....

Right now with with the 119 dish and HD receiver and my DNS (CBS, ABC, etc)
When a program says "broadcast in HD where available"

Will I get that signal in HD from DirectTv?

Thanks,
Brian

[dswallow]

Originally posted by tach32000
Thank you for replying, and I apologize for asking this another way....

Right now with with the 119 dish and HD receiver and my DNS (CBS, ABC, etc)
When a program says "broadcast in HD where available"

Will I get that signal in HD from DirectTv? No. DirecTV does not provide HD locals anywhere (except what I mentioned about CBS-HD beginning Friday). All locals are just their standard SD/NTSC signal.

The only way to get them with the DirecTV receiver is to use an antenna to receive a local digital station broadcasting HD programming.

All DirecTV HD receivers include the ability to receive local programming over-the-air with an antenna.

[oleus]

is there a list of these areas where CBS-HD will be available to DirecTV customers?

[dswallow]

Originally posted by oleus
is there a list of these areas where CBS-HD will be available to DirecTV customers? The 17 markets served by CBS O&O stations are: Austin, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Detroit, Los Angeles, Marquette, Miami, Minneapolis, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, and Green Bay.

Except for Los Angeles and New York area subscribers, you won't qualify to receive CBS-HD if there's a non-owned&operated CBS station that also claims you as a viewer.

[hongcho]

So, the setup is a bit more complicated than necessary. :p

Originally posted by oleus
i have 5 lines coming into my house. 2 pairs of 2 for the two directivos, and one for my HD receiver (that line sees all 3 birds - the 4 directivo lines do not , although i think 1 of the 4 does because of teh way my multisiwtch is routed). I plan on dumping the downstairs SD Directivo for the HD Tivo (i also plan on not using the DTC100 anymore)...so that would be 3 feeds (1 HD) available for the HD Tivo, right? (and a 4th from my OTA antenna)...

by my calculations i'll have full dual tuner SD recording with the HD Tivo, plsu 1 tuner of DirectV HD and OTA. is this correct?

Before:

- 2 sat cables (don't see all sat's) to SD DirecTivo #1.
- 2 sat cables (only one sees all sat's) to SD DirecTivo #2.
- 1 sat cable (sees all sat's) to DTC100.
- 1 OTA cable to DTC100.

After dumping one SD DirecTivo (#2) and DTC100:

- 2 sat cables (don't see all sat's) to SD DirecTivo #1.
- 2 sat cables (sees all sat's, one from SD DirecTivo #2 and the other from HTC100) to HD DirecTivo.
- 1 OTA cable to HD DirecTivo.
- 1 sat cable (don't see all sat's from SD DirecTivo #2) to nothing.

This will make you happy, I think.

Hong.

[oleus]

great - sounds good. so it sounds like i might actually be able to dual-record directv HD with my current wiring. i'll just have a leftover feed coming into my house that won't be used. i'll also have to figure out which of my 4 current tivo feeds sees NASA to figure out which one is seeing all 3 birds. i sure hope it's one that's downstairs :-)

can't wait for april!

any word on the price tiers? i heard there was a cheaper $600 model with less recording space - is this true?

thanks for the help guys.

[hongcho]

> i heard there was a cheaper $600 model with less recording space - is this true?

All rumors (that included Samsung as another HD DirecTivo manufacturer).

Hong.

[TimGoodwin]

Don't know if this was answered yet but any word on a OTA signal strength meter?

[gregggreg]

I've searched through this thread and this forum trying to find an answer to this exact question and haven't found it. I apologize in advance if this has been answered already.

I have pretty much the most simple DTivo setup currently. I have one round 18" dual LNB dish on my roof. Two lines come down my house and into my one DTivo with dual tuners. That's it.

I am thinking of going HD once the HD DTivo comes out. Right now I am just thinking about replacing my current DTivo with the HD DTivo.

Here are my assumptions so far from trying to grok all of the vast amounts of wonderful data in this forum:

1) I have to get a new oval sat dish to replace my current round 18" dish
2) I can run two lines (the same two I already have running from the current dish to my living room) from a 4x4 multiswitch (built into the dish?) to new HD Dtivo in my living room, therefore not having to run any new lines.

Are these assumptions correct? I'm pretty sure I'll be able to replace my current dish with a new dish and I am trying to avoid having to run more lines from my roof to my living room here. I've seen many posts similar to this, but most mention many lines, multiple receivers, multiswitches, and much more complicated setups than that I have.

Thanks for the insight you can provide.

-Greg

[dswallow]

Originally posted by gregggreg
I've searched through this thread and this forum trying to find an answer to this exact question and haven't found it. I apologize in advance if this has been answered already.

I have pretty much the most simple DTivo setup currently. I have one round 18" dual LNB dish on my roof. Two lines come down my house and into my one DTivo with dual tuners. That's it.

I am thinking of going HD once the HD DTivo comes out. Right now I am just thinking about replacing my current DTivo with the HD DTivo.

Here are my assumptions so far from trying to grok all of the vast amounts of wonderful data in this forum:

1) I have to get a new oval sat dish to replace my current round 18" dish
2) I can run two lines (the same two I already have running from the current dish to my living room) from a 4x4 multiswitch (built into the dish?) to new HD Dtivo in my living room, therefore not having to run any new lines.

Are these assumptions correct? I'm pretty sure I'll be able to replace my current dish with a new dish and I am trying to avoid having to run more lines from my roof to my living room here. I've seen many posts similar to this, but most mention many lines, multiple receivers, multiswitches, and much more complicated setups than that I have. Yes, that's all you need to do... replace the dish; the Phase III 3-LNB dish has a multiswitch built-in, and you'll just move the coax lines going into your house over to the new dish, then just hook up the DirecTV HD DVR in place of the DirecTV DVR you're using now.

[gimp]

Thanks to this thread I was able to preorder the new HD DirecTiVo. I've read that D* may require an additional year of programming commitment when existing customers (like me) activate new equipment. Will the same be true of my new HD DirecTiVo (when I get it)? I don't have a problem with it, but seems like we should get something in exchange for an additional year of commitment (other than getting activated). I've already got a triple-LNB, HD D* box, etc.

[Bigg]

you could also use 3 dishes, but it is not worth it unless you have to use 3 dishes to get a decent signal.

[llogan]

All of your statements are correct, are you going to hook an antenna up to your HDTivo? If so, it'll be a little different.

[jdk]

Originally posted by gimp
Thanks to this thread I was able to preorder the new HD DirecTiVo. I've read that D* may require an additional year of programming commitment when existing customers (like me) activate new equipment. Will the same be true of my new HD DirecTiVo (when I get it)? I don't have a problem with it, but seems like we should get something in exchange for an additional year of commitment (other than getting activated). I've already got a triple-LNB, HD D* box, etc.


Good question - I've been wondering this too, so I'm going to ask it in a new thread to see if we can get a complete answer...

[need_help_plz]

nevermind

[duffin]

I tried reading the whole thread, but does anyone know the contract manufacturer for this box? I'm sure it is not a Hughes plant.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by duffin
I tried reading the whole thread, but does anyone know the contract manufacturer for this box? I'm sure it is not a Hughes plant. Solectron.

[paulj]

Solectron.
Any idea which plant? Guadalajara?

paul

[dswallow]

Originally posted by paulj
Any idea which plant? Guadalajara? All I've ever seen is "Mexico"... do they have more than one plant in Mexico?

[paulj]

All I've ever seen is "Mexico"... do they have more than one plant in Mexico? I don't believe so. I guess I know where to go to get an early pickup!

paul

[gregggreg]

Originally posted by llogan
All of your statements are correct, are you going to hook an antenna up to your HDTivo? If so, it'll be a little different.

I might hook up an anntena eventually. How does that change it? Does the anntena have to be on the roof? I live in San Francisco proper and I *almost* have line of sight to Sutro Tower where almost all of the HD channels are broadcast from (about 2 miles away). If I have to put an anntena on the roof and run another line from there to get OTA HD, I might just skip it. I don't watch much major network TV anyway. HD PBS would be cool though.

[MitsHD]

Need some input from someone who has an understanding of how the tuners in the HD Tivo will be set up. I'm in a mid-rise condo, and the building system is set up so that the HD satellite feed and the rooftop OTA antenna come in on the same coax.

I feed that into the "satellite" input on my Hughes HIRD E-86, and then select "Local in 2" on the local menu, and that works fine -- no splitter required on the back, as the Hughes splits out the OTA internally.

Does anyone know if the new unit will work the same way, or if I'll need a splitter? I know I may miss the dual tuner feature for the satellite feed, but I would like to have it for the OTA feed.

Any insight anyone has on this would be helpful as I think about configuration.

[bigpuma]

Originally posted by gregggreg
I might hook up an anntena eventually. How does that change it? Does the anntena have to be on the roof? I live in San Francisco proper and I *almost* have line of sight to Sutro Tower where almost all of the HD channels are broadcast from (about 2 miles away). If I have to put an anntena on the roof and run another line from there to get OTA HD, I might just skip it. I don't watch much major network TV anyway. HD PBS would be cool though.

Being that close I would think you could use rabbit ears and get reception. I hear the Zenith silver sensor is a really good indoor antenna that would definatley work for you. The only thing is I doubt you would get NBC 11 since it is now in San Jose.

[duffin]

Originally posted by paulj
I don't believe so. I guess I know where to go to get an early pickup!

paul

I've placed work with Solectron in the past and their MO is to ramp in Mexico to get it right, then go to higher quantity runs in Asia. On the other hand, plants actually compete for projects, so manufacturing over the long-term may stay in Mexico if they can compete at the higher volumes.

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Originally posted by MitsHD
Need some input from someone who has an understanding of how the tuners in the HD Tivo will be set up. I'm in a mid-rise condo, and the building system is set up so that the HD satellite feed and the rooftop OTA antenna come in on the same coax.

I feed that into the "satellite" input on my Hughes HIRD E-86, and then select "Local in 2" on the local menu, and that works fine -- no splitter required on the back, as the Hughes splits out the OTA internally.

Does anyone know if the new unit will work the same way, or if I'll need a splitter? I know I may miss the dual tuner feature for the satellite feed, but I would like to have it for the OTA feed.

Any insight anyone has on this would be helpful as I think about configuration.

The HD-DVR250 has a separate coax input for the off-air signal, so you will need your di-plexer to separate the signals.

Good news is the HD-DVR250 splits the OTA signal to support the dual OTA ATSC tuners.

[duffin]

Most likely Guadalajara

[Joe Smith]

Originally posted by MitsHD
Need some input from someone who has an understanding of how the tuners in the HD Tivo will be set up.

If you can tune to the UPN station by going to Channel 44, then tuning to Channel 45 will not be a problem. The OTA HDTV tuners use the ordinary over-the-air VHF and UHF frequencies.

I live in Fremont and am able to get all the OTA digital channels from SF on a 9-inch diameter UHF antenna. I get the San Jose NBC channel via rabbit ears.

KTVU SD=2 HD=56
KRON SD=4 HD=57
KPIX SD=5 HD=29
KGO SD=7 HD=24
KQED SD=9 HD=30
KNTV SD=11 HD=12
KBWB SD=20 HD=19
KICU SD=36 HD=52
KBHK SD=44 HD=45

[Skyboss]

Of course the final question on an OpenCable TiVo box. Since cable co's are the primary members, as are Motorola and SA. One has to wonder if they will shut TiVo out...At least in the short term to get a head start.

[feldon23]

With OpenCable, TiVo has a chance, but Motorola and Scientific Atlanta have head starts and their flimsy boxes are being given away for free/cheap.

[hallerbach]

Originally posted by dswallow
The HDTiVo will not be able to encode anything; so it cannot record OTA local analog signals -- only those delivered over satellite or OTA digital signals.

Is there any kind of workaround for this (other than a VCR)? What about future plans to convert the analog signals to a format that the PVR can record? Is this technically feasible?

the problem for me is that I am in a market (Reno, NV) that has no plans to offer networks over direct TV (at least not in 2004).

Thanks.

[feldon23]

This is the HDTV TiVo forum. I assume you want to get your local channels in HDTV?

Enter you ZIP code here and click on the colors to see what size antenna you need. Then look at the beginning of this FAQ. If you are in a house, you can put a rooftop or attic-mounted Channel Master and get good recption for ~$50.

http://www.antennaweb.org/

By the way, Reno, NV analog locals will be available from DirecTV in April 2004. A 3LNB dish will be required, which I'd assume you will already have installed to get DirecTV's HDTV offerings!.

[emunro]

Originally posted by dswallow
The HDTiVo will not be able to encode anything; so it cannot record OTA local analog signals -- only those delivered over satellite or OTA digital signals.

For $1,000 I would expect an encoder. Anything less is cheap, lazy, narrow-minded, and discourages market share.

The competition will deliver the no-brainer features and TiVo will suffer. We need encoders on DTiVo boxes and video extraction to stay loyal to the TiVo products.

[feldon23]

Sorry but you're full of crap. They cannot deliver an HDTiVo for $1,000 with an encoder and why the hell would anyone who wants to watch fuzzy crappy analog channels buy a $1,000 HDTV TiVo?

[emunro]

Originally posted by feldon23
Sorry but you're full of crap. They cannot deliver an HDTiVo for $1,000 with an encoder and why the hell would anyone who wants to watch fuzzy crappy analog channels buy a $1,000 HDTV TiVo?

I assure you that I am very sincere. It's called an all-in-one box. Some programming is only available on cable and/or analog OTA. Why force me to use a VCR or purchase a standalone unit to record the shows I want to watch? If given the choice, I would purchase the product that I found most useful. The tuners are already there, they just need to add an encoder chip.

[hongcho]

It's just that an HD MPEG-2 encoder isn't cheap. A hardware realtime MPEG-2 encoder seems to be by itself, at least, more than $1000. And with two tuners, you need two encoders.

Hong.

[hongcho]

I guess you wouldn't need an HD encoder for those cable channels. But still, it would have added at least a couple of hundred dollars more.

Also, that would have made their system quite more complex and would have delayed the product even further (not to mention the costs). I think this is a very good first HD product.

Hong.

[Darin]

Originally posted by emunro
The tuners are already there, they just need to add an encoder chip.
If I'm not mistaken, the tuners are NOT already there. The only tuners it has are satellite tuners and ATSC tuners. Not analog NTSC tuners. If you are saying you want a product that is like the HD-Tivo and SD standalone combined (add an SD tuner and encoder), then the cost add would probably be similar to the differential price between a stand-alone TiVo and a standard DirecTiVo (a couple hundred dollars). But the market that would want something like that is VERY small. By year end, DirecTV will be able to provide over 93% of the market with local channels via satellite... developing such a box for 7% just doesn't make good business sense. ESPECIALLY when a very small percentage of that 7% even has HD (they never combined the SD TiVo with the SD DirecTivo, so the chances here are even slimmer). I know that doesn't help you, but that's just the way it is.

I just don't think you're going to have any option beyond two devices (like an HD-TiVo and an SD stand-alone TiVo), unless and until your local cable company provides you with a better option.

[feldon23]

A hardware realtime MPEG-2 encoder is not $1000 but it IS one of the major components in the price of standalone TiVos which start at $200.

An HDTiVo with a single analog tuner/input would cost an additional $50-100 AND would dramatically increase the complexity of the software development and program guide info. How is the TiVo supposed to know what is on that analog input?

[bobp]

So Feldon, now that we are all about to add more DTivos to our households (my 'old' Hughes is headed to the bedroom), have you seen any new stacker solutions that will allow us to truly stack 3-LNB signals on a single strand of coax? A Super-Duper-Stacker?

If such a solution actually exists, I don't envy you in creating the graphic;-)

Thanks Feldon!

B

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
A hardware realtime MPEG-2 encoder is not $1000 but it IS one of the major components in the price of standalone TiVos which start at $200. I think there's some confusion between just what source material is expected to be encoded by such a hardware MPEG-2 encoder; SD/NTSC material, for instance, can be encoded in MP@ML using rather inexpensive and readily available equipment. But realtime MP@HL encoding of HD source material isn't readily done for even $1,000... and at the moment, much much more.

So it might be worthy of some wonder as to why at a $999 price point a decision was made not to incorporate sufficient hardware to be able to handle SD/NTSC MPEG-2 encoding, whether or not such hardware was utilized in the initial feature set. And programming data certainly is available somewhere since it's available to current standalone TiVo subscribers. But it's not, currently, available in the same satellite-delivered program info datastream by DirecTV.

[feldon23]

Well if DirecTV could be assured that the HDTiVo couldn't be hacked to have schedule/guide data for cable TV then I think they might put such an input. It would do just manual recordings though.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
Well if DirecTV could be assured that the HDTiVo couldn't be hacked to have schedule/guide data for cable TV then I think they might put such an input. It would do just manual recordings though. On the other hand, if DirecTV wasn't subsidizing the equipment (or had recovered its subsidy on the particular piece of equipment involved) it would be a convenient way to attract a new subscriber -- one who already has much of the equipment necessary to benefit from satellite delivered programming from DirecTV.

So lets say DirecTV allowed them to be sold and used by non-DirecTV-subscribers... the investment then already has been made and DirecTV only has to convince them to get a satellite dish and start paying for programming.

[Darin]

Originally posted by dswallow
So lets say DirecTV allowed them to be sold and used by non-DirecTV-subscribers... the investment then already has been made and DirecTV only has to convince them to get a satellite dish and start paying for programming.
But who in their right mind is going to pay $1k (or even more if that meant loss of a subsidy) for a stand-alone SD Tivo?

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Darin
But who in their right mind is going to pay $1k (or even more if that meant loss of a subsidy) for a stand-alone SD Tivo? It'd also do OTA ATSC.

[Darin]

Well that's a good point. What do those ATSC only recorders cost? Doesn't Zenith, or someone like that make one?

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Darin
Well that's a good point. What do those ATSC only recorders cost? Doesn't Zenith, or someone like that make one? The LG Electronics LST-3410A, which records ATSC and NTSC/analog broadcasts, single tuner recording, 120GB drive (12.5 hours HD), goes for $999.95.

[Darin]

Your point actually mirrors one I made a few months ago as a reason why I thought TiVo would be a good purchase for DirecTV (http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=54307#post54307). :)

[Skyboss]

I think it's more likely the units will remain TiVo units with basic TiVo service (i.e. the Pioneer DVD/TiVo units) and then be upgradeable to full service for a monthly fee, or perhaps a discounted one time fee.

If the buy TiVo lock stock and two smoking barrels.... Damn. Talk about making cable and E* scream. No chance for such a good interface. Replay is close, but not that close.

[CPU_Nurd]

When I called Tivo last night about something else I was told they have no interest in HDTV and that DirecTV would be takeing all the calls and doing all the Service on the HDTV Tico's. Since DirecTV has told me they have no interest in OTA, I think there is a problem forming. It's for sure they would have no interest in Cable. But somebody should buy Tivo, they sure are hostile to DirecTV users, over the phone at least.
CPU

[BrettStah]

Nurd, I found the following FAQ on DirecTV's site:
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/learn/FAQ_DTVAdvanced_HDTV.jsp#howdifferent

[BrettStah]

The lesson to be learned is to NOT rely on customer service reps for information like this... come here, where the good information is! :)

[CPU_Nurd]

I haven't found my solution yet, there is lots of talk but I still have a $700 reciever that can only program DirecTV. When I have a solution I will let you know. I don't see anything anywhere that sez anyone is going to support much of anything on recievers from local Antenna inputs. There may be some confusion here, they do support the local stations they retransmit over the satilite, but in my area they don't retransmit any of my 59 local Digital stations. They do retransmit 1 LA station, I live in the San Francisco East Bay area. I have more local Digital options then I do local Anolog options. One local station, KGO transmits on 7.2 nothing but the local dopler radar, talk about boring, but sometimes useful.
I need help with programming of local over the air (not satilite) stations
that are Digital. Nothing.

[BrettStah]

I wasn't understanding your issue previously... your problem is that you do not have accurate guide data for your digital OTA channels, right? You may want to contact your local stations, as I suggested there, or maybe someone else here has another suggestion.

Also, I don't see what Tivo has to do with that at all...

[Darin]

Originally posted by CPU_Nurd
...somebody should buy Tivo, they sure are hostile to DirecTV users, over the phone at least.
If you are talking about a DirecTivo (be it the current SD models, or the upcoming HD-Tivo), they are not paid to support it, and I'm sure their CSR's don't have any tools to support them being being told to re-direct those calls to DirecTV. There agreement with DirecTV is such that DirecTV is supposed to be doing the support.

What specifically are you trying to get support on?

[CPU_Nurd]

Tivo is actually listing about 7 of my 59 Digital stations on the local survice area on the Tivo. If they supported my reciever and put the IR channel information for that reciever in sub-channel format I would have 7 local digital stations, oh and that is providing they would drive my reciever for local which they will not do. They insist on using the Tivo RF for input, they do seem to drive the IR for some reason but with the local broadcast station number, I think they are supporting 12,29 and 6 30's. I could not get them to explain what these channels worked with but I expect it's the Digital Tivo, although the statdard for digital recievers seems to be to use the Sub-Channels.
Yes, this is all very confusing to the layman, and I have had a commercial FCC license for 35 years and it took me a long time to actually realize that it's a lot like dealing with used cars, you hear what you want, you need to drive it but seeing that it's a component system it's not always easy to drive it . Thanks.
CPU

[CPU_Nurd]

Darin
I just want a way to get programming information into a box, any box, that will allow me to record local off the air(not satillite) programming on a recorder, perferably a DVR. I have 59 local Digital stations, I can not program them to record. I thought I had the solution with the Sony HD300 but I didn't realize that NOBODY will support this feature. It looks easy enough to do, I don't need the recordings to be digital, I just need to record. I find that manual recording of Local Digital is posible and is much better on my Sampo then DirecTV local stations.

[BrettStah]

I think that the chances of the current Tivos supporting HD receivers are pretty slim.

[yogislayer]

Hello all:

This is my first post to your forum and I never owned a TiVo unit before so please forgive my ignorance and keep the answers simple enough for a newbe to understand.

I just bought my first HDTV (Sony GWIII, KF-60WE610) and will be purchasing the new Hi Def TiVo unit as soon as it comes out. I understand that you can not record HD quality out of the TiVo onto another device, but my question is simply...

Does the new HDTV TiVo allow you to hook up a standard DVD recorder or VCR unit to its outputs and record your Hi Def show onto the DVD or video tape in standard definition? If so, which outputs on the TiVo unit can be used to do this? And can you actually do this and still use the TiVo unit as a HDTV receiver and watch television in HDTV while you are doing this? I read something about the new TiVo only putting out a signal on one set of outputs at a time. I will always have my TV connected to the DVI connector and don't want to have to disconnect the cable every time to record onto a DVD or video tape and I want to be able to watch TV while I am copying something over to DVD or video tape.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to respond to this post.

Bill

[dswallow]

Originally posted by yogislayer
This is my first post to your forum and I never owned a TiVo unit before so please forgive my ignorance and keep the answers simple enough for a newbe to understand.

I just bought my first HDTV (Sony GWIII, KF-60WE610) and will be purchasing the new Hi Def TiVo unit as soon as it comes out. I understand that you can not record HD quality out of the TiVo onto another device, but my question is simply...

Does the new HDTV TiVo allow you to hook up a standard DVD recorder or VCR unit to its outputs and record your Hi Def show onto the DVD or video tape in standard definition? If so, which outputs on the TiVo unit can be used to do this? And can you actually do this and still use the TiVo unit as a HDTV receiver and watch television in HDTV while you are doing this? I read something about the new TiVo only putting out a signal on one set of outputs at a time. I will always have my TV connected to the DVI connector and don't want to have to disconnect the cable every time to record onto a DVD or video tape and I want to be able to watch TV while I am copying something over to DVD or video tape.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to respond to this post. All TiVo units currently in existence as well as the DirecTV HD DVR will only output one thing... meaning you can't be displaying something different out of one output than you're watching out of another. The DirecTV HD DVR can record from two tuners at once, even while you're watching another recorded program, but cannot output two different things.

You could connect your DVD recorder to the S-Video output, but S-Video output cannot be active at the same time is the HDMI output, so while you're recording you'd either have to be watching the S-Video (or composite) outputs or watching something from a different device.

[MCodanti]

Originally posted by dswallow
You could connect your DVD recorder to the S-Video output, but S-Video output cannot be active at the same time is the HDMI output, so while you're recording you'd either have to be watching the S-Video (or composite) outputs or watching something from a different device.

My understanding is that HDMI (or component) is active at the same time as S-Video when you are in 480i mode. He should be OK. (TiVoPony posted this information in a Yahoo forum a while back.)

[feldon23]

Originally posted by BrettStah
Nurd, I found the following FAQ on DirecTV's site:
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/learn/FAQ_DTVAdvanced_HDTV.jsp#howdifferent

from DirecTV.com
Films will retain their original theatrical release size and resolution, and the sound can be delivered in digital-quality 5.1-channel digital audio.
Except on HBO, Cinemax (coming to DirecTV) and Starz (coming to DirecTV), where the film is reformatted to fit your screen.

[BadlyDrawnBoy]

So I am on the pre-order list for the hd tivo.

current setup is as follows the triple lnb dish with line of sight to all 3 sats.

2 Dtivos one in bedroom and one in Living room
So one side of the condo has 2 cables going into living room
the other side has 2 going into bedroom. So the 4 from the dish are split in 2 directions.

When I get my new Dtivo what will I need to do? just disconnect the DTivo in the living room and connect the 2 cables to the HDTivo?


What am I missing?

I am pretty new to the HD stuff. thanks

[dswallow]

Originally posted by BadlyDrawnBoy
When I get my new Dtivo what will I need to do? just disconnect the DTivo in the living room and connect the 2 cables to the HDTivo? Yes.

If you want to be able to receive local over-the-air broadcasts, you'll need to install an antenna and either wire it into one of those coax lines using diplexers, or get a 5x4 or 5x8 multiswitch (and a diplexer on the receiver side).

If you want to retain use of the DirecTV DVR in the living room, simultaneously with the DirecTV HD DVR, you'd need to add 2 more coax lines from the dish to the living room and install a 5x8 multiswitch at the dish.

[BadlyDrawnBoy]

Thanks Doug.

That sounds great so minimal interruption then. I can pop the antenna up there and get the diplexer and have the new reciever up and running without any more cable runs.

I have no need of 2 Tivos in the living room.

Wrt to OTA shows broadcast will I need that or will the NBC/CBS/FOX locals etc all be broadcast in HD by DTV. Or is that related to the O&O stuff I have been reading about.

[feldon23]

There is no room on the DirecTV satellites to have 30 copies (or even 3 for that matter) of ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, UPN, WB, or Fox in High Definition.

Digital TV stations come in over a rooftop antenna or rabbit ears.

[duffin]

Originally posted by feldon23
There is no room on the DirecTV satellites to have 30 copies (or even 3 for that matter) of ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, UPN, WB, or Fox in High Definition.

Digital TV stations come in over a rooftop antenna or rabbit ears.

Not necessarily true.

CBS-HD East and West is available on DirecTV and DISH today.

FOX-HD is coming to DirecTV.

There is rumor that ABC And NBC are not far behind.

Of course, all the above is if you have a waiver from your local affiliate that is NOT an Owned and Operated (O&O) station by the network.

See the AVS Forum for more details.

[BadlyDrawnBoy]

That's all I need to know thanks for answering my questions.

robert

[feldon23]

He can get CBS-HD in San Francisco.

[hongcho]

duffin,

I am sure DirecTV will eventually get there. But as of now, they do not have enough bandwidth for all those channels, and that's a fact. The only reason people are saying those things is because of the immenant launch of the new DirecTV 7S satellite (which is pushed to April, I think), which is hoped to create more capacity.

In the mean time, your best bet would be an indoor/outdoor antenna.

Hong.

[duffin]

Originally posted by hongcho
duffin,

I am sure DirecTV will eventually get there. But as of now, they do not have enough bandwidth for all those channels, and that's a fact. The only reason people are saying those things is because of the immenant launch of the new DirecTV 7S satellite (which is pushed to April, I think), which is hoped to create more capacity.

In the mean time, your best bet would be an indoor/outdoor antenna.

Hong.

I agree they don't have the bandwidth for local affiliates in HD, but they DO have the bandwidth for East/West HD national feeds for distant customers if they so choose to provided them.

[hongcho]

NBC, ABC, FOX, WB, UPN, at least... That would be 10 more HD channels. I doubt they can do that without dropping others. For me, I'd rather have them put STARZ-HD or BRAVO-HD on. But you might feel different.

Hong.

[MitsHD]

I have a question regarding the tuner architecture of the HD-DVR250 -- not sure if anyone will have enough info. to answer this, but here goes:

I live in a new midrise condo with about 50 units and a rooftop satellite system that a private contractor has installed with a pretty complex distribution system inside the building, including mixing a rooftop OTA antenna into the HD feed.

The pre-wiring in the building into each unit is limited and can't be expanded because of physical access limitations, and creates limits on how many feeds of what type can be brought in. Bottom line is that I can receive one feed to the back of the HD Tivo that will have all three satellites plus OTA, so I diplex the OTA over to the OTA input and have one satellite tuner active -- and I can live with that.

There is a second feed cable available from my junction box to the prospective HD Tivo location, however. It's possible to bring a second HD signal over it, but that would max out the feed capacity to my unit overall and I wouldn't be able to get SD signals elsewhere (and I need them). I can, however, bring one more SD signal into the unit without impacting any of my other feeds, and I could feed that to the back of the HD Tivo into the second satellite port. (I've researched this carefully, and these are the limitations due to the way our building distribution system is set up).

OK, here's the question: will the new Tivo work with one HD signal into one satellite port and one SD signal into the other? This would allow me to use dual sat tuners with the limitation that only one could get HD. My concern is that the guide reference might be common, or the unit could have a problem with only the 101 satellite being on the second tuner -- or some other issue that would give it problems with this mixed satellite setup.

Anybody have enough insight into the way the unit works to know if this will fly?

Thanks for your help.

[Darin]

I don't understand why you are drawing a distinction between SD feeds and HD feeds. You have satellite feeds, and OTA feeds, both of which could be carrying SD and/or HD content.

[MitsHD]

Darin, it has to do with the way the main building distribution system and multiswitches are set up to serve 50 units -- all owned by a contractor who designed the distribution system. The building was built with only two coax feeds into each unit: no way to snake more coax into the unit from the distribution system, and the multiswitches are somewhere else and I can't get to them or modify them (and I'd have to snake more coax for that to work anyway).

The options are: two HD, going to two tuners, or one HD and one SD. I think the SD must be "stacked" so that it can be split to up to four receivers. But the HD isn't "stacked", so it can only go to one tuner. I have three SD receivers and one HD right now. So my only option (without taking down my other SD receivers) is to split out the fourth SD signal on the SD feed and connect it to the second tuner on the HD-DVR250.

Does that clarify it? When they built this building (only a year ago), if they had understood the technology they'd have run four coax lines to each unit, and that would have created a lot more flexibility.

[GalenMD]

No, I am still not clear. There is no such thing as SD or HD feeds. As Darin said, there is only Coax. It is where they are hooked-up that matters. So, you need 2 coax feeds that come from the satellite and 1 from the OTA antenna. The OTA can be diplexed in and out of one the satellite feeds so you only need 2 coax in total.

Now, this may be your real problem: where are dish are the feeds coming from? Perhaps the "SD feed" that you are referring to is hooked up to an old single LNB dish. If so, it's a matter of cascading or upgrading the multiswitch so that it is hooked up to the right dish/dishes.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by MitsHD
Does that clarify it? When they built this building (only a year ago), if they had understood the technology they'd have run four coax lines to each unit, and that would have created a lot more flexibility. Even having run four coax lines to each unit is no guarantee for the future; when there are yet additional satellite feeds to make available, such as the SpaceWay satellite signals, or Ku/FSS signals, both of which might get utilized by DirecTV for new services, then you'd be stuck unable to use a multiswitch in your unit if you needed/wanted any of those new signals.

As I gather from your description, you have 2 coax lines from a triple-LNB distribution system and 1 coax line from a stacked 1-LNB distribution system... right?

If you do have the 2 triple-LNB coax lines, and 1 stacked single-LNB coax line, you can utilize a cascadable 5x8 multiswitch and make the full triple-LNB signals to all receivers in your home.

The stacked cable would provide the two SatA inputs to the multiswitch (after destacking them), and the 2 triple-LNB coax lines would provide the two SatBC inputs to the multiswitch. And you'd diplex off the antenna signal from whichever cable it was available, and connect that to the antenna input of the multiswitch.

You'd have a mess of wires around, especially if these coax lines came into different rooms, but you could do it.

[Darin]

Originally posted by MitsHD
The options are: two HD, going to two tuners, or one HD and one SD. I think the SD must be "stacked" so that it can be split to up to four receivers. But the HD isn't "stacked", so it can only go to one tuner.
Ok, I think I understand now. Since you mention stacking, I'm guessing that what you really mean is that you have the option of two feeds that can get all three satellites, or a stacked feed that can serve 101 to multiple receivers, plus another feed that can serve all three satellites to one. I don't know if there is a stacker/destacker solution for multiple satellites, so this would make sense. Historically, most of the HD has been on the 110 and 119 satellites, so I could see how this confusion could exist.

So really, your options are: Give the tivo two feeds and let it run dual tuner, or give it it one feed, and have another signal that can feed the other receivers you have. Obviously, you want to take advantage of dual tuners on the hd-tivo, but you also have other receivers that you want to serve. THAT is your quandry, correct? You could feed the second tuner of the hd-tivo with the stacked signal (which could simultaneously feed the other receviers), so it would see all three satellites on one tuner, and just 101 from the second, but here is the problem: assuming the HD-tivo is like the current SD version (which in this respect, is a pretty safe bet), you can't differentiate between the two inputs as to whether or not you have a single sat dish or a mult-sat dish, nor can you give each input different "channels I receive" lists. So you'd have some channels (MOSTLY HD) that could only be seen from one input, but it would sometimes try to tune those from the other tuner, and it would get nothing. It would be a problematic setup, that would kinda work, but have some annoying problems.

There is a third, though expensive, option. Since you have two feeds coming in to your unit, you should be able to stack BOTH of them, so you can get all three satellites on both feeds. Since you say you have the option of a stacked signal that can feed multiple outlets in your unit, but only two feeds that come in to your unit, then they must split once they get to your unit. IF you have access to where those signals are split, then a second (somewhat expensive) stacker could be put downstream of the multiswitch, with a 22khz tone generator that makes sure that the stacker is always asking for the combined sat B/C signal. Then in your unit, use a destacker to break it back out into the odd/even sat b/c signal, and take another destacker to break out the odd/even 101 signal, then take those four outputs to feed a multiswitch, which would then have outputs to feed each of the outlets in your uniti all three sats. I've never heard of this being done, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work. Stackers aren't cheap, but neither is the hd-tivo.

[Darin]

Originally posted by dswallow
If you do have the 2 triple-LNB coax lines, and 1 stacked single-LNB coax line, you can utilize a cascadable 5x8 multiswitch and make the full triple-LNB signals to all receivers in your home.
And the difference between what Doug is suggesting and what I'm suggesting is dependant on what you have coming in to your unit. I'm assuming you ONLY have two cables feeding your unit, and you can choose whether you want them to be a stacked 101 signal, or a non-stacked triple-sat signal.

We really need to know more about how the wiring is set-up. Do the individual outlets in your unit go directly to a distribution room that has access to everything, or do you get two feeds to your unit that are then split?

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Darin
And the difference between what Doug is suggesting and what I'm suggesting is dependant on what you have coming in to your unit. I'm assuming you ONLY have two cables feeding your unit, and you can choose whether you want them to be a stacked 101 signal, or a non-stacked triple-sat signal.

We really need to know more about how the wiring is set-up. Do the individual outlets in your unit go directly to a distribution room that has access to everything, or do you get two feeds to your unit that are then split? Yeah, re-reading I think you're right about what he has... 2 cables.

If he could get a cooperative neighbor with a common wall to feed him their triple-LNB signal, he could feed one (or more) of his multiswitched ones back so the neighbor doesn't lose anything or has a net gain and he gets expandability. ;)

Getting the contractor to stack the SatBC signals would probably be the only other alternative. At least it wouldn't be totally expensive since half the stacking is already done (SatA).

[Darin]

Originally posted by dswallow
Getting the contractor to stack the SatBC signals would probably be the only other alternative. At least it wouldn't be totally expensive since half the stacking is already done (SatA).
If that is how they are set up.... two feeds to each unit, then split to individual rooms from there, it would get even less exensive if they could convince them that they should offer two stacked signals to everyone.... split up the cost of the 2nd stacker. :)

[feldon23]

Are you saying that 1 feed coming into the apartment can only see 101 and the other feed can see 101/110/119?

This would be strange but, I guess, understandable.

[MCodanti]

I think his point is he can get a 101/110/119 feed, or a stacked 101 feed. If you choose the stacked 101 feed you can split it to multiple boxes in your apartment, if you choose the 101/110/119 feed, you can't split it. I think it was very nice of them to give you options.. Shows some planning.

I agree with DSwallow, your best bet is to try and get a neighbor to share with you. Then you could use a 4x8, 5x8, or 4x16 multiswitch to give their feeds back, and run everything in your own apartment.

Good luck!

[MitsHD]

Yes, MCodanti's depiction is correct, and I have that option on either of two cables only coming in. Since I want to feed multiple SD receivers, I will be working with one cable having stacked 101, and the other having 101/110/119.

I don't think I'm up for the attempt to stack the 101/110/119, as the cost isn't worth it for the marginal benefit. As it stands, since I can record two OTA signals and one sat signal with HD, I will have a fair amount of flexibility for simultaneous watching/recording.

So the real question for me is the one Darin addressed -- what would happen with one 101/110/119 feed and the other a stacked 101 feed? This would allow me to do one HD sat program and one SD sat program at the same time, which I won't be able to do with one one sat feed.

If the Tivo has a preference about which satellite input it selects first, I could feed the 101/110/119 into that, and it might work as long as I'm heads up about what's going on at a point in time so that I don't schedule conflicts. But if it is random in terms of which tuner it goes for when both are available, then it's not going to work.

My guess is that I'm at a level of operational detail that we don't know about yet, since the unit isn't released. I don't need to call this shot right away, so I can get the unit up and running, and then see if I can get some clarity from TIVO (or this board) on whether the mixed sat feeds will work after we have some experience with the unit.

Thanks very much to Darin, Doug, Feldon, and MCodanti for taking so much time to weigh in here. This board has been fabulous for me in coming up to speed.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by MitsHD
I don't think I'm up for the attempt to stack the 101/110/119, as the cost isn't worth it for the marginal benefit. As it stands, since I can record two OTA signals and one sat signal with HD, I will have a fair amount of flexibility for simultaneous watching/recording. I think the provision of both stacked SatA and a single full-access SatABC feed are interesting... and that you might have some hope that the company that installed these systems would be willing to listen to your request for a stacked SatA and a stacked SatBC feed. They might be willing to provide for that with the knowledge that there's going to be other residents who will face similar problems you're facing. When the cost of stacking and providing for the distribution of the SatBC signal is spread across multiple units, your incremental cost to destack them and feed a 5x8 multiswitch is probably around $200. That's not an outrageous cost; in line with what you'd pay to have a professional installer run more cabling if that were possible in the first place.

It can't hurt to express your desire for them providing such options.

[Darin]

Originally posted by MitsHD
My guess is that I'm at a level of operational detail that we don't know about yet, since the unit isn't released.
My guess would be that you would have a 50/50 shot of recording anything that was on 110/119. I doubt that it will be "smart enough" to say "oh, I'm not getting these satellites on this input, but I am over here, so I'll TRY to use this input for 101, and keep the other open for 110/119". That is such a rare situation, that the programming complexity just wouldn't be worth it. Not only will you probably be in a situation where half of your 110/119 recordings get missed, but you will occasionally find that the 101/110/119 feed is being used to record something on 101, and you won'to be able to watch 110/119 because you won't want to interupt that recording.

[MitsHD]

Good call, Darin -- I see your logic. I'll just stay with the one feed. Thanks.

[feldon23]

If you combine your 101/110/119 feed with a neighbor's 101/110/119 feed, plus your stacked input, you can generate unlimited outputs.

You could ask them to run their line through a small hole in the wall and in exchange you would run 2 101/110/119 wires back into their apartment.

http://feldoncentral.com/TiVo/direcTVsharedSats.gif
You may need to use a tone generator to keep the 101/110/119 inputs set to output odd 110/119 and even 110/119.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
You may need to use a tone generator to keep the 101/110/119 inputs set to output odd 110/119 and even 110/119. The cascadable multiswitch would be generating that.

And in your drawing don't forget the line going back to the neighbor. ;)

[MCodanti]

Using Feldon's method you could even create a unlimited 101 + 119, or 101 + 110 feeds without your neighbors extra feed. (But you would have no full 101+110+119 feeds)

[dswallow]

Originally posted by MCodanti
Using Feldon's method you could even create a unlimited 101 + 119, or 101 + 110 feeds without your neighbors extra feed. (But you would have no full 101+110+119 feeds) Not quite like that... It'd be 101 + 110/119 clockwise polarity or 101 + 110/119 counterclockwise polarity.

[Darin]

Originally posted by MCodanti
Using Feldon's method you could even create a unlimited 101 + 119, or 101 + 110 feeds without your neighbors extra feed.
Well, no, you could do a 101 + 110 + 119 even without the neighbor's extra wire, OR a 101 + 119 odd, but not a 101 + 119 (full). That would almost be a decent solution, if they didn't have the good channels mixed up the way they do. But right now, 110 has ShowtimeHD, HDnet Movies, ESPN, and DiscoveryHD, while HBOHD and HDnet are on the ODD transponders of 119. So you'd have to choose between those two groups. And you'd risk losing the channels you picked if/when they move things around (which they could easily do once 7s is up).

[MitsHD]

Feldon's solution is terrific -- but I can't do the neighbor access physically. I have, however, figured out a workaround to all this. The two cables-only configuration is replicated through the unit from a distribution panel where the feed cables come in, so I have two cables back to my home theater cabinet.

On one, I'll use the 101/110/119 feed I have now with OTA (from the roof) combined, diplex out the OTA, and have three tuners on the HD Tivo (one satellite, two OTA).

The new HD Tivo will replace my existing Hughes HIRD E-86 and Tivo Series 2, and I'll still have one unused coax, one more SD satellite signal at my distribution panel, and a UHF antenna in the front closet near the distribution panel that gets the local OTA's (building roof antenna is separate). I'll diplex the fourth 101 signal with the indoor UHF antenna, and bring that back to the Hughes E-86 through the second coax. Then I'll have OTA hidef through the Hughes (probably never use it given two OTA tuners on the new TIVO), and SD on the Hughes going into the Tivo Series 2 as I do now. That gives me a clunky but functional way to record additional satellite programs in SD if I need to while recording another satellite program on the HD Tivo, and a way to do three OTA's at once, which as I said I may never use.

That's probably my best workaround, and the lost potential from putting the E-86 on Ebay is about the same as the cost of the mutiswitches and destackers would be if I could get a neighbor's line. All I lose is the ability to Tivo/watch two satellite HD programs at once, and I can easily live with that.

I wouldn't have thought of this without the stimulus of the dialogue we've had on this. Thanks again.

[Gromit]

Who was bitching about this forum not being helpful? Kudos to Darin, Doug and Feldon. I'm sure others noticed, but I just wanted to point out the custom pic that feldon created in his last post just to address MitsHD's specific problem.

[MCodanti]

Since we don't know exactly how the HD Tivo will work I can't say for sure but I suspect it won't do what you want.

We have decided that it probably treats 1 D* and 1 OTA tuner as one virtual tuner. So it has 2 virtual tuners. When you tell it you only have one D* feed, it probably will turn off that whole virtual tuner. Meaning you will have a one tuner box. (Either OTA or D* at any given time.) Otherwise the scheduling would get too complicated.

I could be wrong, but plan for one tuner and be surprised if both OTA work with just one D* feed.

(My understanding is that the Dish Network 921 will ONLY work if you have 2 sat feeds hooked up... Won't even operate with only one.)

[lady400]

As a late arrival to this party, I just wanted to post a thank you to feldon23 for this excellent informative post.

I've been on a hiatus from electronic toy buying for quite a while, after a period of upgrading to HDTV, Tivo, prog scan DVD, surround sound, etc. While I used to post in the AVS forums fairly frequently, it's been a long time now.

I was still thinking that HD Tivo was a long way off, but something made me check the Tivo forums recently for any news. Wow!! I was quite surprised to see that this long awaited device is very close to reality. This post made me start to drool.

It was good timing for me, too. I was able to get the hubby to give a thumbs up to the pre-order since we are getting a good tax refund this year. I won't be in the first wave, but that's okay. :D

Thanks again.

[jcthomas]

Lady 400:

Timing is everything and yours is impeccable. Good to see you back.
Regards:

[edrock200]

Originally posted by feldon23
If you combine your 101/110/119 feed with a neighbor's 101/110/119 feed, plus your stacked input, you can generate unlimited outputs.

You could ask them to run their line through a small hole in the wall and in exchange you would run 2 101/110/119 wires back into their apartment.

http://www.feldoncentral.com/TiVo/direcTVsharedSats.gif
You may need to use a tone generator to keep the 101/110/119 inputs set to output odd 110/119 and even 110/119.

Sorry to jump in late on the party here but I had a thought. I know you said a neighbors line is not an option, but if it was, with one line you could in theory do all 3 sats. If your neighbor had a stacked "SD" cable, split it and run it into your home. Destack it and use that for 101. Request that both feeds coming into your apt be "HD" feeds, and plug those into 119. That would give you eight outputs (assuming your using a 4x8) that can see all of 101/110/119. I'd also recommend putting a DC block between the direct line from the multiswitch to the stacker (not destacker.)

[MOTOMATT]

:confused: Sorry if this has been already answered, i tried to read all the threads but did'nt see an answer to this.
if my pj supports 720p, can i set the output from hdtivo to 720p and be good for all channels:confused:
:) thnx for any info:)

[dswallow]

Originally posted by MOTOMATT
:confused: Sorry if this has been already answered, i tried to read all the threads but did'nt see an answer to this.
if my pj supports 720p, can i set the output from hdtivo to 720p and be good for all channels:confused:
:) thnx for any info:) Yes.

[MOTOMATT]

:) thnx for reply :up:

[feldon23]

Originally posted by edrock200
I'd also recommend putting a DC block between the direct line from the multiswitch to the stacker (not destacker.)
I've searched some but had no success finding a DC block. Have you got any links to them? How much do they cost?

[feldon23]

Updated/Rewrote the Standalone/OpenCable HD TiVo section.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
I've searched some but had no success finding a DC block. Have you got any links to them? How much do they cost? Did you try using google with the search term "dc block"?

http://www.smelectronics.us/dcblocks.htm
http://www.smelectronics.us/bnc-f-dcblocks.htm
http://www.tselectronic.com/gc/video/surge_block.html

Channel Master #7264 is a DC block: http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/TVS/Passives.htm

[feldon23]

And the other question is what exactly do they do?

In a stacker/destacker situation, I could care less about power surges. The only reason I'd get a DC block is to prevent dumping power into the MDU system.

I don't know how many amps a multiswitch sends up the wire, but shouldn't we be worried? I did some searches and found power draws of anywhere from 180 - 275 mA when switching. If 10 apartments switch at the same time, that's a 2.75 Amp spike! I wouldn't want to be screwing around in the distribution closet when that happened!!


So, can a DC block stop the 13 and 18 volt signal?

If so, I'm going to recommend a DC block be used for each Destacker installation.


Interesting how they range from $2.99 to $75! :eek:

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
I don't know how many amps a multiswitch sends up the wire, but shouldn't we be worried? I did some searches and found power draws of anywhere from 180 - 275 mA when switching. If 10 apartments switch at the same time, that's a 2.75 Amp spike! I wouldn't want to be screwing around in the distribution closet when that happened!!


So, can a DC block stop the 13 and 18 volt signal? Any given coax connection wouldn't have that draw; even if a powered multiswitch used the power from the receiver to do anything (which I don't believe is the case -- it's just being detected to determine what the multiswtich should do), the powered multiswitch is always going to be sending power to the LNB's and will always have all 4 signals available, and each switching circuit in the multiswitch would be independently operating, always connecting some signal to the receiver.

13v and 18v are DC; if it's blocked, it's blocked.

It's just a capacitor. Here's an article on DC blocks: http://www.inmetcorp.com/PDFILES/MWRF8535E_article12-00.pdf

[feldon23]

Yes, 100 apartments each sending 180-250 mA of power to try to power a dual LNB. :)

Maybe they already have DC blocks in the distribution closet.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
Yes, 100 apartments each sending 180-250 mA of power to try to power a dual LNB. :)

Maybe they already have DC blocks in the distribution closet. But each one of those is over its own cable; the multiswitch(es) aren't doing anything with it except looking at it to see which signal to provide.

Even if the multiswitch just shunted the connections, the LNB wouldn't be drawing that much power from every receiver.

A non-powered multiswitch does need to operate off power from the receivers, but a powered multiswitch doesn't.

[edrock200]

Originally posted by feldon23
I've searched some but had no success finding a DC block. Have you got any links to them? How much do they cost?

I had posted links earlier, I'll try to find the thread. Radio shack has them for a few dollars. My main concern is that normally you would put a destacker before each lead before it enters the multiswitch. I'm guessing the destacker removes the voltage or adjusts it to play nice with the stacker. By removing the destacker between the odd side of the MS and the stacker that line can send voltage straight to the stacker.

[edrock200]

DSwallow, my point was the destackers may be altering the voltage/removing it before getting to the stacker. When you throw in a multiswitch and remove the stacker from one side, the MS might be sending voltage up the line that the stacker doesn't like.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by edrock200
DSwallow, my point was the destackers may be altering the voltage/removing it before getting to the stacker. When you throw in a multiswitch and remove the stacker from one side, the MS might be sending voltage up the line that the stacker doesn't like. Here's the Sonora catalog which include diagrams of the operation of the stacker, destacker and voltage inserter... http://www.pdi-sat.com/html/pdf/SonoraCatalog_PDISAT.pdf

They show how the DC power is passed or blocked (there's destackers that pass or that block).

Frankly, my head hurts trying to figure out where this statement originated from and following the path between receiver and destacker(s) and multiswtich(es), so maybe someone who knows can look at that and decide if it'd be necessary. ;)

[duffin]

Just a thought, could we take this discussion off to another thread? I thought this one was for the unit specifically vs. installation.

Thanks.

[feldon23]

I'd split it into a separate thread but I don't have that button. :)

[duffin]

How about this thread then?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158833

[wired711]

Hi all.

First, I would like to add another big time thanks to feldon23 for the amazing work he's put into the "HD TiVo and HD DirecTV TiVo FAQ" including all the updates to keep it current. Also many thanks to all the contributors here who have provided lots of depth of information (including contributing to the technical information in the FAQ) as well.

We got our first HDTV two weeks ago and other than a few high def xbox games in 720p (that look amazing) have not yet had the HDTV experience yet with, well..TV but I would like to change all that ASAP. I have read through from message #1 (the FAQ) to present and just want to make sure I understand what I need to do the upgrade.

Now:
Have 2 Hughes standard def GXCEBOTDs DirecTivos (both unaltered 35 hour units in the family room, lovingly known as Tivo1 and Tivo2). The four coax lines (1 pair in each Tivo) come from the basement and a 4x4 multi-switch from an 18" dual (single arm) LNB dish pointed at Sat 101.

Next:
I plan to call DirecTV and try to get the $99 customer retention HD upgrade dealo for the included Phase III elliptical Trible LNB (3 arm) dish, HD receiver and installation. I also plan to pre-order the HD-DVR250 but depending on when the upgrade is done I would at least have an HD receiver to get us through for a month or so. In the spring we plan to look into adding a roof antenna to get the OTA HD locals.

Until we have the HD-DVR250, we'd like to continue to have both GXCEBOTDs hooked up and add the HD Receiver. When the HD-DVR250 arrives we would add that to the mix as well. Maximally, we could eventually have hooked up to the same HDTV...

-Two standard def GXCEBOTD DirecTivos (2 pairs of 2 DTV coax feeds). Might put one Tivo to rest once we have the HD-DVR250.
-1 (free DirecTV) HD Receiver. (1 DTV coax feed). Not sure if we would keep this going once we have the HD-DVR250.
-1 HD-DVR250 (2 DTV coax feeds).
-1 OTA antenna (1 OTA coax feed).
So as a max I see 8 coax feeds coming into the family room if we kept everything but we'll probably take either one GXCEBOTD or the (free) DirecTV HD Receiver out of the mix once the HD-DVR250 is on board. Just not sure at this stage so I want to be ready for the max situation.

OK, here come the questions...

1. 4x8 or 5x8 multi-switch? For the max situation, where I want 8 coax feeds into the family room, would I need a 4x8 or 5x8 multi-switch? If I understand correctly, the odd input on the 5x8 could be used for the OTA antenna input? Is there any reason I shouldn't just feed the coax from the antenna directly into the family room (and the single OTA input on the back of the HD-DVR250) and bypass the multi-switch? If I don't need a powered multi-switch now (with my 4x4), would I need one for any reason for the upgrade to the 4x8 or 5x8?

2. Does anyone know if as part of the Customer Retention $99 HD Upgrade deal I can get either a 4x8 or 5x8 multi-switch included?

3. Is there any use for my existing 4x4 multi-switch as part of our upgraded HD configuration?

4. Is there anything I'm forgetting or have terribly confused?

I'm sure I have some stuff just plain wrong so please straighten me out. It's late and I've got to get to bed so I'm a bit rushed. Please excuse any glaring stupidity here.

Thanks in advance to any and all for your assistance!
Wired

[dswallow]

1) You'll have a hard time finding a 4x8 multiswitch; 5x8's are much more prevalent, and you can still choose to bring the antenna directly in on its own cable not using the antenna input on the multiswitch. No big deal -- just cap it off to keep moisture out. Almost all 4x8's and 5x8's are powered. A unit like the Terk BMS-58 (~$100) can be located outdoors and power is delivered to it over another coax cable from the supplied 110v power adapter. But since you'll need the antenna input on the DirecTV HD DVR, too, that'd be 2 places (the $99 deal HD receiver plus that), so you may as well use the multiswitch's capability to distribute the OTA antenna -- it amplifies the signal to accommodate the 8-way distribution and the loss from the diplexer, so you're not really losing anything.

2) Yes, just tell them you already have all 4 connections used and need the installer to bring a 5x8 multiswitch since the HD receiver will make 5; you'll already be getting the Phase III dish as part of the package since you only have a single LNB dish now and need the 3 LNB dish for HD programming. The Phase III dish has a built-in 4x4 multiswitch -- but since you need 5 outputs now, and 7 total later, you still need the 5x8 multiswitch... it'll just be connected to the 4x4 multiswitch on the Phase III dish (meaning the 5x8 multiswitch has to be cascadable -- and most are these days, like the Terk I just mentioned)

3) No. Sell it on E-Bay. Junk it. Save it for another project. Whatever.

4) You've pretty much got it covered. :)

[edrock200]

Originally posted by dswallow
Here's the Sonora catalog which include diagrams of the operation of the stacker, destacker and voltage inserter... http://www.pdi-sat.com/html/pdf/SonoraCatalog_PDISAT.pdf

They show how the DC power is passed or blocked (there's destackers that pass or that block).

Frankly, my head hurts trying to figure out where this statement originated from and following the path between receiver and destacker(s) and multiswtich(es), so maybe someone who knows can look at that and decide if it'd be necessary. ;)

LOL, well my reasoning was this:

If you combine two multiswitches with high-frequency splitters that doesn't block DC on one leg, you will slowly burn out the LNB. There seemed to be a rash of burned out stackers lately. Since most wiring diagrams always show a destacker on the end of every line in a stacked situation (even with a MS in the loop) I was thinking maybe they somehow regulate voltage on the line. With feldon's diagrams, you take a destacker out on one line with the MS in the loop. So I figured better to be safe than sorry and try throwing a dc block on the line to keep any extra voltage from going up the line. Since the MS locks on to odds or evens and the stackers powered, it doesn't seem necessary for voltage to be sent up the line on that side.

[wired711]

Originally posted by dswallow
1) You'll have a hard time finding a 4x8 multiswitch; 5x8's are much more prevalent [snip]
...so you may as well use the multiswitch's capability to distribute the OTA antenna -- it amplifies the signal to accommodate the 8-way distribution and the loss from the diplexer, so you're not really losing anything.

Hi Doug. Thanks for the complete and informative reply. I'm a little confused about the diplexer and what it does. Will it already be part of whatever HD antenna solution I get. I know the HD-DVR250 just takes a single OTA antenna input and can utilize 2 OTA tuners from it so I guess that's where the diplexer somehow comes into play?

Originally posted by dswallow
2) Yes, just tell them you already have all 4 connections used and need the installer to bring a 5x8 multiswitch since the HD receiver will make 5 [snip]
...it'll just be connected to the 4x4 multiswitch on the Phase III dish (meaning the 5x8 multiswitch has to be cascadable -- and most are these days, like the Terk I just mentioned).

Do I need to be concerned that the installer will bring a non-amplified (or otherwise inferior quality) 5x8 and thus do you recommend I be more specific about just what type of 5x8 I need him to bring or would I be better off just taking the hit and purchasing a good 5x8 like the Turk you mentioned? If so, can you recommend where I might order from?

Thanks again
Wired (aka "Doug").

[dswallow]

Originally posted by wired711
Hi Doug. Thanks for the complete and informative reply. I'm a little confused about the diplexer and what it does. Will it already be part of whatever HD antenna solution I get. I know the HD-DVR250 just takes a single OTA antenna input and can utilize 2 OTA tuners from it so I guess that's where the diplexer somehow comes into play? The OTA antenna signal (50-850MHz and below) gets combined with the satellite signal (950MHz-1450MHz) by the multiswitch (or by using a diplexer "in reverse" of how you'd use it at the receiver).

The diplexer at the receiver is used to split the two signals back into separate cables, with the DC voltage coming from the satellite input on the receiver being passed up to the multiswitch.

It's not much more than a special-purpose splitter, but instead of splitting the signal equally, it splits it such that different blocks of frequencies are separated into different cables.


Originally posted by wired711
Do I need to be concerned that the installer will bring a non-amplified (or otherwise inferior quality) 5x8 and thus do you recommend I be more specific about just what type of 5x8 I need him to bring or would I be better off just taking the hit and purchasing a good 5x8 like the Turk you mentioned? If so, can you recommend where I might order from? I don't think there's any guarantee what DirecTV provides via the installer for free. But I don't think I've heard anyone here mention getting a 4x8 or a non-powered 5x8. The Terk BMS-58 is available at most chain electronic stores like Circuit City.

From buy.com for $71.99: http://www.buy.com/retail/electronics/product.asp?sku=90118793&loc=111&sp=1
From solidsignal.com for $79.99: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SPBMS58

[wired711]

Thanks again Doug. OK... so if..
a) I decide to feed the OTA Antenna coax into the 5th (antenna) input on the 5x8 multi-switch it combines the OTA + Sat freq signals together on each of the 8 outputs and the diplexer at the receiver splits out the feq range to use whatever is appropriate for the input a given coax is fed to - the OTA freq for the antenna input or the Sat freq for both Sat inputs? I want to be sure ... the diplexer is built into the reciever and not something I need to buy, right?

b) Or I can run the OTA antenna coax directly into the receiver. In this case is the diplexer in the receiver even used? Again, I want to make sure that in this case I don't have to purchase a diplexer either?

Does this work and apply the same way regardless if I'm using the HD Receiver from the $99 retention deal or the HD-DVR250?

I'm still not sure I'm fully appreciating the advantage of going with a) over b). Is it because there's some advantage of running the OTA antenna coax into a powered multi-switch.

Sorry if I'm missing the point a bit or being a bit too dense. I think I'm close and just need a little nudge to the finish line :)

Thanks for the purchase info on the multi-switch. The AC Adapter is included (as opposed to being optional) isn't it? What would happen if the multi-switch wasn't powered (like the 4x4 I have now)?

Finally, has anybody out there done the $99 customer retention deal with DirecTV where you needed the installer to deliver a (5x8) multi-switch? If so, which brand did he bring, was it powered. Any problems?

Thanks,
Wired

[dswallow]

Originally posted by wired711
Thanks again Doug. OK... so if..
a) I decide to feed the OTA Antenna coax into the 5th (antenna) input on the 5x8 multi-switch it combines the OTA + Sat freq signals together on each of the 8 outputs and the diplexer at the receiver splits out the feq range to use whatever is appropriate for the input a given coax is fed to - the OTA freq for the antenna input or the Sat freq for both Sat inputs? I want to be sure ... the diplexer is built into the reciever and not something I need to buy, right?

b) Or I can run the OTA antenna coax directly into the receiver. In this case is the diplexer in the receiver even used? Again, I want to make sure that in this case I don't have to purchase a diplexer either?

Does this work and apply the same way regardless if I'm using the HD Receiver from the $99 retention deal or the HD-DVR250?

I'm still not sure I'm fully appreciating the advantage of going with a) over b). Is it because there's some advantage of running the OTA antenna coax into a powered multi-switch.

Sorry if I'm missing the point a bit or being a bit too dense. I think I'm close and just need a little nudge to the finish line :)

Thanks for the purchase info on the multi-switch. The AC Adapter is included (as opposed to being optional) isn't it? What would happen if the multi-switch wasn't powered (like the 4x4 I have now)?

Finally, has anybody out there done the $99 customer retention deal with DirecTV where you needed the installer to deliver a (5x8) multi-switch? If so, which brand did he bring, was it powered. Any problems?
a) The diplexer is an additional thing to use before the connections go to the satellite receiver. You'd install a diplexer on one feed from the multiswitch and from the diplexer connect to the antenna input and one of the satellite intputs; another feed from the multiswitch would go directly to the other satellite input.

b) If you run a separate line directly from the antenna, then no diplexer is used.

This is how you do it whenever you need to get an antenna signal to some tuner input and the antenna signal is combined with a satellite signal. It doesn't matter what sort of receiver your using.

The advantage comes about when you have more than one tuner that needs an antenna input or when you want to save on running a separate wire for the antenna signal.

The power adapter is included with the multiswitch.

If a multiswitch were passive (not powered) it wouldn't amplify the signal; each output of the multiswitch would be some percentage of the signal available since it's split 8 ways (on an Nx8 multiswitch). I've seen one 5x8 multiswitch that could operate without power (but also could be powered), every other one I've seen requires power.

[wired711]

Many, many thanks Doug. Any recommendations for a particular diplexer or are they pretty much all the same? I can check the sources you gave me for the multi-switch.
Wired

[dswallow]

Originally posted by wired711
Many, many thanks Doug. Any recommendations for a particular diplexer or are they pretty much all the same? I can check the sources you gave me for the multi-switch. The specs on loss of signal of various diplexers does vary, but not usually enough that I'd say it's worth worrying about when using a powered multiswitch to combine the antenna signal. Terk makes one, as does Channel Vision... and you should be able to find diplexers at Radio Shack, too... just about anywhere you find the multiswitch, you'll probably find diplexers for sale. Channel Vision does differentiate between diplexers intended to combine the signals and diplexers intended to separate the signals, but most don't. And even those from Channel Vision would work in either capacity -- they've just tried to optimize some things for the purpose they're intended for.

[wired711]

Thanks again Doug.

[timatraw]

Wired,
Installer connected a powered "DirecTV approved Eagle Aspen Model DTV4x8" 4x8 multi-switch as part of the $99 retention deal at no charge.

Doug or anyone,
I am getting the CM 4228 antenna installed into the HDTV receiver. I want it to be "HDTIVO" ready. I have an antenna install scheduled and I want to make sure I get it right. The installer isn't the brightest bulb in the pack so i'll need to know how to instruct him.I thought about having the installer run the cable from the antenna directly to the receiver. I guess the cable goes from the CM4228 antenna to the dish and then the HDTV receiver. Is this correct? Should the cable go from dish to switcher and then to the box? Do I require (or do you recommend) diplexers for install?
Thanks.
Tim

[timatraw]

Sorry...
Diplexer question was answered in above post. New questions. I just had new HDTV receiver installed. I'm waiting for HDTIVO. I also have regular DTivo and third D*receiver. Will have four after April! Am I running out of inputs? I have the Phase III dish. What cables go from Phase III switcher to the 4x8 switcher? How do I connect OTA signal from dish to HDTivo and the other two boxes? I guess this is where those diplexers come into the picture.
Thanks all.
Tim

[Bigg]

Four satellite cables go from the Multi in the dish to the cascade multi. If you ever need more DTV outputs, you can use another 4x8 cascade switch, under the existing multi that is under the dish. the OTA signal is totally independent of the satellite signals. It would go through a CATV splitter in the attic, and then a coax line needs to be run to each of the TVs where that signal is required. Avoid diplexers if you can.

[timatraw]

Whats the difference between a diplexer and a splitter? What does a "cascading" multi-switch do?

[feldon23]

The only way to guarantee the best reception is to run the cable from the antenna directly to the receiver. Diplexing is an imperfect science and can drown out some or all of the DirecTV signals.

[feldon23]

Originally posted by timatraw
Whats the difference between a diplexer and a splitter?
A diplexer, depending on which end you plug it into, either injects or extracts over-the-air antenna (rabbit ears) TV signals out of wire that is also carrying a DirecTV signal.

A 5x4 multiswitch has a built-in diplexer, so any antenna plugged into it will be available from any of the 4 downstream outputs.

A splitter (which you CANNOT USE FOR SATELLITE TV except in rare instances) splits a TV signal so you can use it on 2 or more TVs.

Originally posted by timatraw
What does a "cascading" multi-switch do?
In a nutshell, preserve full access to all 3 satellites (101, 110, 119). If you do NOT use a cascadable multiswitch, you'll lose access to most of DirecTV's HDTV offerings.

[wired711]

Originally posted by timatraw
Wired,
Installer connected a powered "DirecTV approved Eagle Aspen Model DTV4x8" 4x8 multi-switch as part of the $99 retention deal at no charge.
Tim

timatraw - thanks for your reply on this. Really good to know they included the powered 4x8! Hopefully there will be no problem with getting one included when I call (today or tomorrow) to ask for the $99 retention deal.
A followup...

1. When did you call and what receiver model did they give you? Any problems with it?

Speaking of calling to get the retention deal...
2. How did you go about asking for the deal? Did you just call up and ask for it or did you do a bit of a song and dance and say "I'm planning on getting HD from my cable company and dropping DirecTV because it's not costing me anything to upgrade my equipment with Cable. Can you offer me any reason to stay with DirecTV?" or something like that. Just wondering what approach might be most successful. I've recently read a post on another thread from a 2+ year customer (I think) that said he'd made several calls and couldn't get the retention deal yet.
Wired

[timatraw]

Wired,
Called a couple of weeks ago. Received the new Samsung 360HDTV receiver. The 360 has lots of bugs that are being worked on by D*.There is a comprehensive thread over in the AVS forum about this topic. I called and asked for the "Retention Dept." I told them I was dropping Satellite for cable and was offered the $99deal. They also threw in free intall, second install for an additional room, Showtime free for 6 mos., HBO @ $2.00/month for six mos., free dish and receiver, and courtesy OTA antenna install (I bought the antenna). I have been a customer for two plus years and that seems to be a criteria to get the deal. If denied, you can tell them that many people at the AVS forum heve received this deal- be professional, polite and assertive.
Good luck.
Tim

[timatraw]

Does the HDTIVO have an internal diplexer? What is the benefit?
Thanks.
Tim

[jcblack]

Isn't 1080i 30 frames per second (interlaced) and/or 60 fields per second?

[wired711]

Originally posted by timatraw
Wired,
Called a couple of weeks ago. Received the new Samsung 360HDTV receiver. The 360 has lots of bugs that are being worked on by D*.There is a comprehensive thread over in the AVS forum about this topic. I called and asked for the "Retention Dept." I told them I was dropping Satellite for cable and was offered the $99deal. They also threw in free intall, second install for an additional room, Showtime free for 6 mos., HBO @ $2.00/month for six mos., free dish and receiver, and courtesy OTA antenna install (I bought the antenna). I have been a customer for two plus years and that seems to be a criteria to get the deal. If denied, you can tell them that many people at the AVS forum heve received this deal- be professional, polite and assertive.
Good luck.
Tim

Thanks timatraw. Looks like I'm about ready to make that call. Are any of the 360HDTV bugs causing you problems? I'll look for the AVS topic.
Thanks,
Wired

[wired711]

Originally posted by wired711
Thanks timatraw. Looks like I'm about ready to make that call. Are any of the 360HDTV bugs causing you problems? I'll look for the AVS topic.
Thanks,
Wired

Just got the $99 deal. No shipping charge either. After credit, it's exactly $99. I had to take the $10.99 per month HD Package for a 12 month commitment which we really didn't want. She looked to see if she could give us the deal without it but she couldn't. We already have HBO so we'd automatically get HBO HD anyway + National feed of CBS in HD since we live in an owned and operated city. This was enough for us now at least until we get an antenna installed for OTA HD. Oh well. It's first month free so its basically $144.00 for a year if we decide to drop it after that. I know we'll enjoy the HD channels. Installation is this Saturday. She confirmed they will install an nX8 multiswitch and even put a note on the work order to make sure. I asked her to add that it be a "powered" multiswitch but probably that's what it would be anyway from what I understand. She doesn't know if we'll get the Huges HTL-HD or the Samsung TS-160 receiver. In a few days we'll see what gets shipped to us.

Thanks again timatraw and please do let me know what problems you might be having with the Samsung. Do you know if the HTL-HD is OK?
Wired.

[edrock200]

You'll probably get the TS-360.

[PYROBOB]

I'm confused. After reading most of this thread, I called DTV and spoke with customer retention and they told me DTV did not offer DTV-HD-TIVO. The lady did offer to sell me the HD receiver and credit me $300 after I said I was thinking of going to cable. Is the HD-TIVO available? Or, are they just tossing me around?
Also, What is the AVS Forum?

Thanks

Bob

[dswallow]

Originally posted by PYROBOB
I'm confused. After reading most of this thread, I called DTV and spoke with customer retention and they told me DTV did not offer DTV-HD-TIVO. The lady did offer to sell me the HD receiver and credit me $300 after I said I was thinking of going to cable. Is the HD-TIVO available? Or, are they just tossing me around? Maybe you should read it a little slower next time. ;)

The DirecTV HD DVR will be released at the end of March.

While it's purely speculative, don't expect too much, if anything, in the way of special offers on it, even from customer retention, for some time.

Originally posted by PYROBOB
Also, What is the AVS Forum? www.avsforum.com -- run by the same folks who operate this place.

[swatter]

Wow, post #400 :D

[feldon23]

Originally posted by jcblack
Isn't 1080i 30 frames per second (interlaced) and/or 60 fields per second?
Correct.

For HD-DVD, we're hoping they'll do 1080p-24 or 1080p-30 depending on the source material.

[edrock200]

What display, other than a PC monitor can handle 1080p?

[BrettStah]

A google search for "1080p" came up with the below link, which talks about the Toshiba 57HLX82 1080P Rear Projector:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,821914,00.asp

[feldon23]

It's a steal at $9,000 (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,821914,00.asp).

[hongcho]

I don't expect to see many 1080p displays getting popular until we see some actual HD-DVD disks and players in the market.

Although I feel this is a shame, but I don't see any ATSC broadcasters will adopt 1080p/24 or 1080p/30. But I am hoping that HD-DVD would.

Hong.

[gimp]

Originally posted by BrettStah
A google search for "1080p" came up with the below link, which talks about the Toshiba 57HLX82 1080P Rear Projector:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,821914,00.asp

I own one. While the native scan rate is 1080p, it does not accept 1080p input; max in is 1080i.:mad:

[nabsltd]

Originally posted by edrock200
What display, other than a PC monitor can handle 1080p? Technically, very few, but every HDTV should be able to accept 1080/30p or 1080/24p as those are legal ATSC modes, and there are STBs that output the "native" signal.

I know my HDTV only accepts 480i, 480p, and 1080i on the component inputs, but can handle any ATSC mode via the built-in tuner. The 1080p modes are converted to 1080/60i, unfortunately.

[CraigHB]

So if you have a HD monitor that can handle 1080i natively, is there any reason why you wouldn't just set the monitor and HD DTiVo to run at 1080i all the time? Is there any loss of clarity when a 720p broadcast is scaled to 1080i? Aren't there vast differences in "scaler" quality from one device to the next. Does the HD DTiVo have a good scaler? If your HD monitor has a better scaler, how do you determine which one does the job? How do you know what mode the broadcast is to begin with?

I tell you, I have to rag on the ATSC for failing to standardize on one digital TV mode. I mean honestly, how is the average consumer going to to deal with it. It makes my head hurt and I'm pretty good with this kind of stuff. Multiple modes seem like an unnecessary complication. NTSC doesn't have all these modes and keeping it simple is probably the reason for it. Well, hopefully it will be like Beta and VHS video casettes; one will prove dominant causing the rest to disappear.

Thanks,

- Craig

[Bigg]

We don't need to get rid of one. just take the best parts from both, and you have 1080p!!!

[Darin]

Originally posted by CraigHB
So if you have a HD monitor that can handle 1080i natively, is there any reason why you wouldn't just set the monitor and HD DTiVo to run at 1080i all the time? Is there any loss of clarity when a 720p broadcast is scaled to 1080i?
Well, it depends. If you have a fixed pixel display, then it's simply going to come down which has the better scaler... the Hd-Tivo, or your TV. Theoretically, the picture should look best when shown at it's native resolution, so a 720p image should look better on a nateive 720 display than it would scaled to 1080 on a native 1080 display. If you have a CRT display that can display both 720 and 1080 natively (a rarity), then you are best adjusting the output to match the content.

[CraigHB]

Isn't that kind of lame? I mean if they had standardized on a 480 and a 960 mode, then things would always scale in an ideal manner. The way it is now, the quality of your picture depends on the resolution of the broadcast and the native resolution of your display. It's really brain damaged of the ATSC to allow a standard that makes PQ dependent on something the average consumer will have no clue about.

- Craig

[hongcho]

> It's really brain damaged of the ATSC to allow a standard that makes PQ dependent on something the average consumer will have no clue about.

True. But for the "average" consumer that wouldn't make a difference anyway.

It is true that it is a bit hairy with all the formats, but they didn't know what to go with. They were initially all for progressive, but some insisted on interlaced format. And 1080i/60 wasn't going to do well in some cases in the 6 MHz / 19.3 Mbps channel.

At least, it is coming down to these two formats now: 720p/60 and 1080i/60. Well, when HD-DVD comes and start using 1080p/24 or 1080p/30, it will be another story...

Hong.

[wmccain]

Originally posted by dswallow
There are adapters to go from HD component to RGB: http://www.extron.com/product/product.asp?id=cvc200&subtype=36
But they're not cheap... that one I've seen around for $700 (it lists for $895).
I've been using an Extron CVC 200 transcoder for several years. It works great, but it is expensive and (when set to do 720p/1080i) it can't handle 480i/480p.

Recently I replaced it with a KeyDigitalSystems "ClearVideo3" (model KD-CTCA3). This is about 1/3 the price of the Extron (around $275) and it can handle all the HDTV formats (480i/480p/720p/1080i). Plus, it has a component video "pass through" output, which the Extron does not, so you can still use the component output to drive another monitor.

[wmccain]

I just became aware, from one of the other threads, that the HD TiVo apparently does not have "full-time" NTSC composite/S-video outputs (i.e. NTSC outputs that are active regardless of the format being output on the component/HDMI jacks). Reportedly, one must select the "480i" output format for the HDTV output in order to activate the NTSC outputs.

This could be a "show-stopper" for me, as I was planning to get a Hughes HD-DVR250 to replace the Hughes HDVR2 in my master bedroom — and also upgrade the master bedroom TV to a Sharp 30" LCD. But the master bedroom also feeds NTSC video to an existing 17" LCD widescreen in my kitchen. Not only is the kitchen on another floor, so pulling more wires is non-trivial, but the kitchen LCD's high-def component input is already being used for a high-def feed from my home theater.

This is an incredibly stupid design decision on TiVo's part. I expected much better from them.

There is a long history concerning the "concurrent composite/S-video" feature and/or the lack of same in HDTV set-top boxes. The very first STB to hit the market, the OTA-only Panasonic TU-DST50, had this capability ... but it was omitted from the TU-DST51 and all subsequent Panasonic models. However, most (possibly all) Samsung HDTV STBs, both OTA and OTA/DirecTV, have had this feature from the get-go, and it has been very popular (as it is essential for concurrent whole-house distribution in NTSC format, not to mention taping on a conventional VCR).

More recently, the "concurrent composite/S-video" feature was included in the latest "hot" HDTV OTA/DirecTV STB, manufactured by LG Electronic and marketed under three brands (as the LG LSS-3200A, the Sony SAT-HD300, and the Hughes HTL-HD). This was warmly received by users, as the previous model in this line (marketed as the Zenith HD-SAT520 and Sony SAT-HD200) had almost all the same features except the concurrent NTSC output.

Perhaps TiVo/Hughes can fix this unbelievable oversight with a software update ... are you listening, TiVo?

One slightly mitigating factor in the lack of concurrent NTSC output in the forthcoming HDTV TiVo is that (it has been reported that) they put an output format control button on the remote.

Like the concurrent output issue, there is a long history behind this, and in this case TiVo appears to have paid attention to users' needs. The earliest HDTV STBs put a format control slide-switch on the rear panel ... very inconvenient ... or else they had no output format control capability at all (as with the infamous RCA DTC-100). A few later models put a format control button on the front panel, but without any corresponding button on the remote.

Even today's HDTV STB "of choice", the LG LSS-3200A/Sony SAT-HD300/Hughes HTL-HD varies oddly in this regard. All three versions have a format control button on the front panel, but only the Sony version has a format control button on the remote!

[wmccain]

Another concern that I have is that the HD TiVo apparently does not have a "native" option for the output format. This is another step backwards compared to the current "state-of-the-art" HDTV STBs. The LG LSS-3200A/Sony SAT-HD300/Hughes HTL-HD, for example, not only has a "native" output option (all HDTV formats are output as broadcast, no conversion), but they also have an excellent "variable 1" output option (480p, 720p, and 1080i are output "as is", but 480i is upconverted to 480p).

On the other hand, the TiVo took a step in the right direction by (reportedly) implementing a configuration menu that lets the user select the preferred output formats. They should take this configuration menu "one step further": allow the user to select, for each of the four broadcast formats (480i/480p/720//1080i) exactly which format to output (yes, I know there are actually 18 variations of the broadcast formats, but 4 format category "groups" is enough for this purpose).

Thus, if you have a set that can handle only 1080i, you would set all broadcast formats to output in that mode. If you want "native", set each format to output as itself. "Variable 1", as described above, and similar "variable" formats, are also easily specified.

If this configuration menu were enhanced as I am suggesting, AND concurrent output of NTSC (480i) on the composite/S-video jacks were provided, then one would never need to touch a "format" button (on the front panel or on the remote)!!!

[MCodanti]

Originally posted by wmccain
This is an incredibly stupid design decision on TiVo's part. I expected much better from them.

Perhaps TiVo/Hughes can fix this unbelievable oversight with a software update ... are you listening, TiVo?

No, you want DirecTV to be listening. They are the ones setting the specs, and paying for it. TiVo can't add anything that DirecTV doesn't want. TiVoPony has said that he thinks "native" mode could be supported through a software update, but the request would have to come from DirecTV. Remember this is a DirecTV HD DVR powered by TiVo. TiVo writes the software under contract from DirecTV.

More recently, the "concurrent composite/S-video" feature was included in the latest "hot" HDTV OTA/DirecTV STB, manufactured by LG Electronic and marketed under three brands (as the LG LSS-3200A, the Sony SAT-HD300, and the Hughes HTL-HD).

But you have to remember the hardware was designed over a year ago, with parts available at that time. They would probably do things differently if they were starting over now. (They did make one change since then, by adding another OTA tuner which has delayed things a few months.)

If it doesn't work for you that is too bad, but it will work great for me. I'm keeping my HDVR2 for SD, as I will need all the space the HD-DVR250 has for HD.

Not everyone runs a whole house system. How often does everyone want to watch the same thing? I think putting a separate box for each display device is the best option, and then it would be even better if they all supported HMO.

[BrettStah]

It is apparently a limitation of the chipset in the HD-Tivo (and Dish 921 PVR) that prohibits simultaneous outputs like you (and I) desire.

A "native" mode may be possible via a software update, however.

[wmccain]

Originally posted by MCodanti
No, you want DirecTV to be listening. They are the ones setting the specs, and paying for it.
True, and I understood that when I posted. On the other hand, TiVo came up with the original "reference design" on their own, and DirecTV "bought into it". There was undoubtedly some "give-and-take" collaboration after that — doubling the number of tuners, for example — but I suspect that the two "bonehead mistakes" (lack of concurrent output and lack of "native" mode) were in TiVo's original design, and DirecTV didn't know enough (or care enough) to request the necessary changes.

Note that the very latest Hughes-branded non-TiVo HDTV OTA/DirecTV receiver, the Hughes HTL-HD, has both of the "missing features", concurrent output and "native" mode. Since this is DirecTV's "house brand", I had assumed that any future unit, such as the Hughes HD-DVR250, would at least match this feature set. (Also note the recent DirecTV announcement that all future DirecTV receivers would be marketed by DirecTV, under their own brand, and have a common feature set.)

But the Hughes HTL-HD was actually designed by LG Electronics, and they (unlike TiVo) had several years of experience with HDTV models, so they had a better feel for customer requirements. (The "school of hard knocks"!)

Which is sad, because TiVo has a (deservedly) high reputation for anticipating market requirements and "not missing things". If they had included the missing features in the reference design, I am sure that DirecTV would have accepted them (as they did with LG's design), "no questions asked". But now that the initial release is "frozen", there is much more bureaucracy involved, and I fear it will be like "pulling teeth" to get DirecTV to request the changes and for TiVo to implement them. We will probably see HMO on DirecTiVo models before we see concurrent output and "native" mode ...

[wmccain]

Originally posted by feldon23
For HD-DVD, we're hoping they'll do 1080p-24 or 1080p-30 depending on the source material.
Since 2-3 pulldown captures all of the image pixels on 24-fps movies, 1080p-30 offers no particular advantage over 1080i-60. True, having all of a frame in one place instead of having to piece together two fields offers a minor improvement in processing. But every fifth frame in 1080p-30 is redundant, just as one-out-of-five fields is redundant in 1080i-60.

1080p-24, on the other hand, offers some real improvement: a 20% reduction in storage space required, due to the elimination of the aforementioned redundancy.

For material that originates as video, not film, it's probably best to keep it in 1080i-60 format rather than to combine two fields into one frame. Doing so can introduce motion artifacts, so it's better to let the monitor handle this in a manner appropriate to the monitor's technology (CRT versus plasma or LCD).

[dswallow]

You could get this to work with a little creativity... such as using a component video switch for the signal going to your LCD screen -- one controlled by a remote if an automatic switch wouldn't function in your environment. You would have to pull the additional wires, unless you already had a CAT5 cable, then you could use devices to carry the 3 component signals over twisted pair.

I find the lack of a native mode or a hybrid variation of it more of a concern -- but, and this is the first I heard someone say -- if it could be solved with a software update, that'd be good. But even then, I'm not too bothered. The compromises I'm making now not having HD recording capability at all are far worse than these compromises with the DirecTV HD DVR.

[hongcho]

Re: Lack of NTSC capability...

The thing is, this will require them to have an NTSC tuner (which I doubt would be that hard) and an MPEG-2 encoder for each OTA tuner. I am sure this would have only added $100 (or even less) to the hardware costs, but the software to support them would have been much greater.

I had the same concern about NTSC, but that's why I am keeping my ReplayTV (with 200 GB).

This product is just adding two OTA ATSC tuners and HD recording capability to the existing product. Sure it seems this took a long time, but others (e.g., Dish 921) seem to have about the same difficulty getting those into a product.

There will be Series 2 HD DirecTivo, I am sure. As the first HD DVR, I think this product is pretty sweet.

Hong.

[wmccain]

Originally posted by dswallow
You could get this to work with a little creativity...
You are right, of course. And I'm nothing if not creative ...

For instance, one of my three existing TiVos, a standalone Series 2, currently controls a big dish (C-band/DigiCipher II) satellite system. The TiVo thinks it's controlling a Motorola DCT2000-series cable box, but the RS232 serial commands are actually intercepted by my AMX controller, which emulates the cable box (using software that I wrote).

But just the same, I'm very disappointed to find that the HD TiVo is not as "up-to-date" on customer-requested features as I had expected. Especially considering that the Hughes HTL-HD does have those very same features.

(Sigh.)

The work-around, as you suggested, will probably involve pulling two more 50' RG-6 cables to match the one that currently carries composite video. (That particular LCD panel has no S-video input, but it does have a top-notch comb filter — whereas another 17" widescreen LCD that I own does have an S-video input but the comb filter on its composite input is lousy with "dot-crawl". Go figure!) And I'll have to put a remote-controlled component video switch in the crawl space underneath the kitchen, as the kitchen LCD is wall-mounted.

Much more "pain" than I anticipated, but there is some "gain": it will be possible to watch the master bedroom TiVo in the kitchen in high-definition.

SOME GOOD NEWS

As near as I can tell from the pictures and specs, the Hughes HD-DVR250 is built inside the exact same case as my existing Hughes HDVR2. That means I can swap out the old unit and swap in the new one without having to order a new faceplate for the Middle Atlantic rack in my master bedroom ...

[wmccain]

Originally posted by hongcho
Re: Lack of NTSC capability...

As the first HD DVR, I think this product is pretty sweet.
In my previous posts, the references to NTSC were with regard to video from OTA ATSC and DirecTV, not OTA analog NTSC. When digital video is output in analog format on composite and S-video jacks, it is in NTSC format (525 total lines, ~480 visible lines, interlaced, analog).

I couldn't give a fig if the Hughes HD-DVR250 had a terrestrial NTSC tuner. Current model non-TiVo HDTV DirecTV receivers, such as the Hughes HTL-HD, do have a terrestrial NTSC tuner, but I never use it ...

Note that the Hughes HD-DVR250 is not the first HD DVR on the market. LG Electronics has had one out since last fall, at least. But it's not a TiVo!

[wmccain]

Originally posted by MCodanti
Not everyone runs a whole house system. How often does everyone want to watch the same thing? I think putting a separate box for each display device is the best option, and then it would be even better if they all supported HMO.
You are correct, really. HMO is a better solution.

The LCD panel in my kitchen has no "source components" of its own — but an awful lot of wiring lets it watch whatever is playing in three different locations of my house (usually TiVo, although it could be something else, such as a DVD). Each of the three locations has their own TiVo, so if HMO were universally supported, that could "do the job" (watching DVDs in the kitchen is rarely done and could be scrapped).

But only one of my three TiVos, the standalone Series 2 in my home theater, currently has HMO support available (and not purchased, either — I have no use for MP3s or photos, so why would I spend $100 for a networking option that doesn't talk to any of my other two TiVos?). The other two TiVos are a standalone Series 1, which I have upgraded to two very large hard drives and a TurboNet card, but which will never receive HMO support; and a Series 2 DirecTiVo, for which HMO support might someday be forthcoming (but don't hold your breath) ...

[Hootydog]

...but what is an HMO? I'm sure you are not talking about a type of health insurance carrier?

:confused:

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Hootydog
...but what is an HMO? I'm sure you are not talking about a type of health insurance carrier?

:confused: Home Media Option; there's an entire forum dedicated to the subject here.

[chriswood]

Hongcho

Your post was just the one that I have been looking for... someone who has "Replay" and "Tivo" experience.

I have pre-ordered the HD-250. It will be the first time that I have ever seen the Tivo user interface. I have used the RePlay ShowStopper for about 3 years.

I (and my wife) LOVE the Replay user interface. It's incredibly fast "grid" architecture, and vast array of other great features, are superb.

The "linear list" that I hear Tivo uses (to avoid using it's slow grid) seems like a major technological setback.

I have 3 Panasonic HDS20 (that model number might not be correct... but it is close) HD STB's. The "grid" in it's user interface is a bit slow... marginally tolerable. It seems to run as a background task, so it is not very responsive... (again) marginally tolerable.

How would you rate the Tivo interface against the RePlay interface?

Best Regards,
Chris Wood

[AbMagFab]

I've used the Replay. That, and your comments, indicate why the Replay has failed. If you care at all about the guide format, then the DVR device has failed.

The Replay interface is non-intuitive, the weird merging of live and recorded content makes little sense, and the lack of a play-scroll-bar makes it nearly impossible to know where (in the time cycle) you are in watching a show.

When you use a good DVR, like the Tivo, you don't care what the real-time guide looks like. You only use it once in a while, to watch live sports, maybe some other live show, in which case you're just switching to the channel. If you're channel surfing live-TV enough to care about the guide, then you need to get rid of your DVR.

Which you are. So I congratulate you. If you are this positive about Replay, you're going to lose your mind (in a positive way) when you get the Tivo.

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by chriswood
Hongcho

.... I (and my wife) LOVE the Replay user interface. It's incredibly fast "grid" architecture, and vast array of other great features, are superb.

The "linear list" that I hear Tivo uses (to avoid using it's slow grid) seems like a major technological setback. .....

IMO, moving away from the grid will be a step up from what you are used to. If you give it a chance, you might find that you like the TiVo style guide. It offers much more information in the same amount of space, BUT in an intuitive, easily comprehensible format.

[wmccain]

Does the HDTV TiVo allow the user to add OTA (terrestrial) ATSC channels that do not appear in the APG (Advanced Program Guide) downloaded from DirecTV?

In a perfect world, this would not be an issue. But I have a couple of recent-model non-TiVo OTA/DirecTV receivers that use the APG, and it is clear from that experience that the APG coverage of OTA ATSC channels is a "work in progress". (The non-TiVo receivers do allow you to scan for, or manually add, terrestrial channels not in the APG. When you do, of course, the guide shows no real info for these channels. Just "Regular Schedule" at all times ...)

This is not entirely DirecTV's fault (although I do believe they could do a better job). ATSC broadcasting is in a constant "state of flux", as new stations (mostly independents) come on-line and the existing ATSC broadcasters fiddle with their lineups of subchannels.

In my area, there are numerous gaps and bugs in the APG's list of terrestrial ATSC channels. A partial list:

• Several independent channels are missing altogether.

• Most major channels are broadcasting in HD on their main subchannel, XX-1, and simulcasting in SD on XX-2. But the APG shows only XX-1, typically XX-2 is missing. (However my existing receivers add XX-2 to the guide automatically, with "Regular Schedule", as soon as you tune to XX-1, because the receiver detects the complete subchannel lineup from the PSIP that the station is broadcasting.)

• For nearly a year now, the main PBS station in San Francisco has been broadcasting five subchannels, 9-1 through 9-5, each with its own unique program schedule (for instance, one of them carries "PBS Kids"). For some reason, the APG lists only four of them; the "middle subchannel" 9-3 is missing from the APG. (But 9-3 does get added automatically, with "Regular Schedule", as explained above.)

• There are some outright "bugs" in the APG listings. One is that channel 9's "real physical" ATSC channel number, 30, also appears in the APG as if it were a terrestrial NTSC channel (could this be related to the missing 9-3?). Another is that virtual subchannels 60-1 and 60-2 appear in the APG but both tune to the same physical subchannel, 43-1 (however you can manually add 43-1 and 43-2 and then you can use those numbers to directly tune to both subchannels, which do not simulcast the same programming).

A Related Question

Does the HDTV TiVo permit tuning to terrestrial ATSC channels by both their virtual and physical channel numbers, or only by their virtual channel numbers?

Current models of OTA and OTA/DirecTV ATSC receivers differ on this issue (from one brand to another). Panasonics and Samsungs allow you to tune both ways, but the LG models (marketed as Zenith, LG, Sony, and Hughes) accept only the virtual channel number. [Unless the channel is not remapping itself via the PSIP and does not appear in the APG (which remaps a few terrestrial ATSC channels that do not remap themselves). In that case, the LG models accept the physical channel number.]

[Hootydog]

Originally posted by wmccain
Does the HDTV TiVo allow the user to add OTA (terrestrial) ATSC channels that do not appear in the APG (Advanced Program Guide) downloaded from DirecTV?

In a perfect world, this would not be an issue. But I have a couple of recent-model non-TiVo OTA/DirecTV receivers that use the APG, and it is clear from that experience that the APG coverage of OTA ATSC channels is a "work in progress". (The non-TiVo receivers do allow you to scan for, or manually add, terrestrial channels not in the APG. When you do, of course, the guide shows no real info for these channels. Just "Regular Schedule" at all times ...)

This is not entirely DirecTV's fault (although I do believe they could do a better job). ATSC broadcasting is in a constant "state of flux", as new stations (mostly independents) come on-line and the existing ATSC broadcasters fiddle with their lineups of subchannels.

In my area, there are numerous gaps and bugs in the APG's list of terrestrial ATSC channels. A partial list:

? Several independent channels are missing altogether.

? Most major channels are broadcasting in HD on their main subchannel, XX-1, and simulcasting in SD on XX-2. But the APG shows only XX-1, typically XX-2 is missing. (However my existing receivers add XX-2 to the guide automatically, with "Regular Schedule", as soon as you tune to XX-1, because the receiver detects the complete subchannel lineup from the PSIP that the station is broadcasting.)

? For nearly a year now, the main PBS station in San Francisco has been broadcasting five subchannels, 9-1 through 9-5, each with its own unique program schedule (for instance, one of them carries "PBS Kids"). For some reason, the APG lists only four of them; the "middle subchannel" 9-3 is missing from the APG. (But 9-3 does get added automatically, with "Regular Schedule", as explained above.)

? There are some outright "bugs" in the APG listings. One is that channel 9's "real physical" ATSC channel number, 30, also appears in the APG as if it were a terrestrial NTSC channel (could this be related to the missing 9-3?). Another is that virtual subchannels 60-1 and 60-2 appear in the APG but both tune to the same physical subchannel, 43-1 (however you can manually add 43-1 and 43-2 and then you can use those numbers to directly tune to both subchannels, which do not simulcast the same programming).

A Related Question

Does the HDTV TiVo permit tuning to terrestrial ATSC channels by both their virtual and physical channel numbers, or only by their virtual channel numbers?

Current models of OTA and OTA/DirecTV ATSC receivers differ on this issue (from one brand to another). Panasonics and Samsungs allow you to tune both ways, but the LG models (marketed as Zenith, LG, Sony, and Hughes) accept only the virtual channel number. [Unless the channel is not remapping itself via the PSIP and does not appear in the APG (which remaps a few terrestrial ATSC channels that do not remap themselves). In that case, the LG models accept the physical channel number.] I'm having a similar problem in the East Bay. No matter how hard I've tried I can't seem to get program info on 7.1 CBS so I leave 7.2 in my guide just so I can get the programing even though I don't watch 7.2. 5.1 ABC on the other had works fine with the programing.
I currently have a Samsung SIR TS-160 BTW.

[hongcho]

> Does the HDTV TiVo allow the user to add OTA (terrestrial) ATSC channels that do not appear in the APG (Advanced Program Guide) downloaded from DirecTV?

The demo unit I've seen did not. But it allowed you to scan the OTA ATSC channels.

> Does the HDTV TiVo permit tuning to terrestrial ATSC channels by both their virtual and physical channel numbers, or only by their virtual channel numbers?

This will be one for TivoPony to answer.

Hong.

[chriswood]

DCIFRTHS / AbMagFab,

THANK YOU for your responses.

Actually, we only watch about 2% live TV... 98% of what we watch is recorded.

My wife watches TV at two times during the day and we both watch at prime time. The first thing that happens during a "watch period" is to select (from the grid) what we want to record to watch the following day. Then we watch what was recorded the previous day. For gotta-watch shows that come on at a variety of times and channels, the keyword search quickly pulls up those shows (in a list) for the next week... we pick the non-reruns out of the selected list.

Anyway, it sounds like that if we think Replay is great, then we are going to need a defibulator when the Tivo arrives.

Thanks for the info... I feel much better.

[hongcho]

> How would you rate the Tivo interface against the RePlay interface?

Tivo also has a grid guide, but it has always been very slow. Tivo has its own guide style that is responsive (which means that their internal guide database is "optimized" for their guide style and not the grid style).

I think the grid style guide matters most if you don't have many recordings scheduled (that is, scanning for programs to watch/record "live"). But the pattern might change with Tivo.

Also Tivo has a much better "search" interface compared to my RTV-3030 (yes, this thing is a bit old).

It will definitely get some time to get used to the Tivo guide style from the grid guide (it is available, but it is SLOW), but it shouldn't be that difficult.

Hong.

[Darin]

Originally posted by wmccain
it is clear from that experience that the APG coverage of OTA ATSC channels is a "work in progress". (The non-TiVo receivers do allow you to scan for, or manually add, terrestrial channels not in the APG. When you do, of course, the guide shows no real info for these channels. Just "Regular Schedule" at all times ...)
Same problem here in Atlanta. MAYBE half of my local OTA channels have guide info. The others... the guide seems to have no idea what those channels are (even though they are the "main" channels... none of my local stations multicast multiple programming feeds). While this is a nuisance on an HD receiver, this is a MAJOR issue for a product that differentiates itself by the fact that it's able to record by program ID. I don't know if DirecTV is to blame, my receiver, or my local stations. Probably a combination, which means it'll be even more difficult to get fixed.

[chriswood]

It's me again (on a different issue)...

I pre-ordered my HD-250 on Feb 5th. At the time I was not sure if I was going to be in the "first shipment" (their website did not give a clue).

A week-or-so later I called and asked if I was going to be in the first shipment... after a several second pause (looking at something?), she said "yes".

So I was happy.

Now I see here that I missed the window by almost 2 weeks.

I also see (according to this forum) that I will pay a (approximate) 3 week delay penalty because I will not be in the first shipment.

A few weeks ago, I asked (in the avsform) if I (who live in California) should cancel that order and place a GG order, so that I could pick the thing up at a store, and because I am closer to the source (Mexico) so I should get it sooner. I could care less about putting 50% down or paying the sales tax.

The few replies I received said I should save the sales tax and keep my original order... the time of receipt should not be more than 2 or 3 days.

At the time, I could have placed the GG order in their first shipment wave. I have no idea what the GG situation is now... but the value electronics situation has deteriorated by about 3 weeks.

Not having the time to read miles of posts on this forum, can someone tell me (or point me - with a link) if the GG first wave is also history?

Chris Wood

[CraigHB]

It will definitely get some time to get used to the Tivo guide style from the grid guide (it is available, but it is SLOW), but it shouldn't be that difficult. For a while, I waffled back and forth between which guide style I thought was better. I finally decided the TiVo guide is better. The grid guide is easier on the eyes, but not as functional. Once you get used to the plain-ness of the TiVo guide, you'll find it contains more information in less space and is easier to use.

- Craig

[wmccain]

Originally posted by hongcho
Does the HDTV TiVo allow the user to add OTA (terrestrial) ATSC channels that do not appear in the APG (Advanced Program Guide) downloaded from DirecTV?
The demo unit I've seen did not. But it allowed you to scan the OTA ATSC channels.
I do not understand your answer, as the two statements appear contradictory.

I asked, in effect, if there is any way to add missing ATSC channels or subchannels. You answered "No", but then said that scanning is supported — and that is one of three methods that I know of for adding more ATSC channels/subchannels. Just to be clear, the methods supported by my current non-TiVo receivers, such as the LG LSS-3200A, are:

• A setup menu that lets you initiate a "scan" that checks your OTA antenna for all receivable local ATSC channels.

• A setup menu that lets you add a specific ATSC channel "by number". (The LG version of this then checks that physical channel number and adds the channel only if it is receivable on the antenna. If the station is being remapped via its PSIP, the virtual subchannel number(s) are the ones that are added to the guide, otherwise the physical subchannel number(s) are added.)

• When an ATSC channel is tuned, any subchannels that it is broadcasting that are not already listed in the APG are automatically added. (But most receivers, such as the LG, will not let you tune a channel unless it is already in the "receivable channels" list. So the automatic adding of missing subchannels is useful only if at least one subchannel is listed in the APG or has previously been "found" by one of the two user-initiated setup methods listed above.)

So what, exactly, were you trying to say?

[hongcho]

William,

I don't know why you find my answer contradictory since I consider scanning OTA channels (your first bullet) not to be the same as you adding a channel to, say, 68 (your second bullet). So, it does not let the user to manually add a channel, but it allows channel scanning for OTA. Matter of semantics? Maybe.

I can't really be specific about the extent to which the scanning works. I've only seen "scan" function, but I am not sure what happens after the scan.

Hong.

[wmccain]

Originally posted by hongcho
So, it does not let the user to manually add a channel, but it allows channel scanning for OTA.
Thanks for the clarification. The fact is, I'm happy to have any method for adding the channels that are missing from the APG, and scanning will do that.

(And if memory serves, the standalone TiVos do not even have scanning for missing terrestrial NTSC channels. You have the accept the list of channels in the TiVo guide for your zip code, which in that case is provided by Tribune Media Services.)

One reason that I don't consider scanning to be much different from manually adding a channel "by number" is that, in the LG-designed STBs, the implementation of the latter is just a special case of the former. That is, "scanning" checks your antenna in the range of channels 2-69, whereas the "manual add" performs the exact same check, but limited in range to the one physical channel number that you specify ...

[pzalkind]

AAhitman


Try component video cables, using Y, Pr, and Pb...leave the H and V empty. Works on my 1999 Mits.

[feldon23]

Originally posted by chriswood
DCIFRTHS / AbMagFab,

THANK YOU for your responses.

Actually, we only watch about 2% live TV... 98% of what we watch is recorded.

My wife watches TV at two times during the day and we both watch at prime time. The first thing that happens during a "watch period" is to select (from the grid) what we want to record to watch the following day. Then we watch what was recorded the previous day. For gotta-watch shows that come on at a variety of times and channels, the keyword search quickly pulls up those shows (in a list) for the next week... we pick the non-reruns out of the selected list.

Anyway, it sounds like that if we think Replay is great, then we are going to need a defibulator when the Tivo arrives.

Thanks for the info... I feel much better.

Looking up shows to record for tomorrow .... no longer required with TiVo
Keyword searches .... only needed for movies/special events you don't already have Season Passes for
Picking the non-reruns out of the selected list .... no longer required with TiVo

The TiVo interface can be dog slow, but I still think it's better than anything anyone else has done.

[Crash_Corrigan]

My current Directv STBs are using a wireless phone jack as their connection to a phone line. Will the HDTivo STB be compatible with a wireless phone jack or will I have to get a hardwired phoneline run to the wall behind my a/v equipment?

[edrock200]

That depends, if your current STB's are making calls then you're probably ok, though Tivo's connect at higher speeds than standard DirecTV STB's because they download software updates over the modem. If your wireless jacks are rates for 33.6 or better you should be good. Otherwise you'll either need to hardwire a line or get a better set of wireless jacks.

[Crash_Corrigan]

My E86 and old Sony SAT-A2 work fine with my wireless phone jack, but it is an old wireless phone jack circa 1996. I'll have to check the speed, but I have a feeling it may not be fast enough for TIVOs. I'm encouraged to hear the newer wireless phone jacks may be fast enough for TIVOs. I had been under the impression that a hard-wired landline was needed for any TIVO to operate correctly.

[BrettStah]

Make sure to get a wireless PHONE/MODEM jack... the key is the word MODEM.

[MCodanti]

Originally posted by Crash_Corrigan
My E86 and old Sony SAT-A2 work fine with my wireless phone jack, but it is an old wireless phone jack circa 1996. I'll have to check the speed, but I have a feeling it may not be fast enough for TIVOs. I'm encouraged to hear the newer wireless phone jacks may be fast enough for TIVOs. I had been under the impression that a hard-wired landline was needed for any TIVO to operate correctly.

I've got one of the original wireless phone jacks from when DirecTV first started up, and it worked just fine for my HDVR2 getting the b update. It might have taken longer, but it only took one phone call. Maybe the old ones are better than the cheap new ones.

[Scott Corbett]

Just in case it matters, my SD TiVo has not made a phone call for about 230 days (the modem is fried). Hopefully the HD TiVos will also not really require a constant phone connection.

I get one nag screen per day, but just pressing ENTER makes it go away.

I sometimes order PPV through the web site.

[joeyg]

So is there an actual date for the standard HD Tivos to be released?

[hongcho]

> So is there an actual date for the standard HD Tivos to be released?

No.

There has not even been an announcement except for a technical demo last year (that no manufacturers would pick up).

Hong.

[feldon23]

So is there an actual date for the standard HD Tivos to be released?
There is no such beast and probably never will be.

I'd look forward to an OpenCable HD TiVo with OTA 8VSB tuners in the next year or so.

[k2ue]

Originally posted by feldon23
Diplexing is an imperfect science and can drown out some or all of the DirecTV signals.

Huh? Complimentary High Pass/Low pass Filters with constant impedance on the common port are hardly an imperfect science -- filter synthesis is quite exact. Since UHF TV ends at 806MHz (750MHz in practice) and the Satellite Downconverter output begins at 950MHz there is no reason why a diplexer should affect Satellite reception, if well designed and built.

It is true that lower pole count diplexers can allow noise and harmonics to bother the lower Satellite transponders in some cases, however one can go to trunk-grade diplexers (rather than drop-grade) with higher pole count, or double-lowpass the TV signal by sending it thru a diplexer with the Satellite port terminated before sending to the actual diplexer.

[feldon23]

There are a lot of crappy diplexers and 5x8 multiswitches out there. Diplexing is not always the answer. I am speaking from the testimonies of many people on the DirecTV/TiVo forum who have had to run a separate OTA line to get all their DirecTV channels to work.

I don't make the news, I just report it. :)

[dswallow]

Originally posted by feldon23
There are a lot of crappy diplexers and 5x8 multiswitches out there. Diplexing is not always the answer. I am speaking from the testimonies of many people on the DirecTV/TiVo forum who have had to run a separate OTA line to get all their DirecTV channels to work.

I don't make the news, I just report it. :) Then you should be reporting the brand names and model numbers of the diplexers prone to doing crappy things rather than passing along cryptic notes about diplexers not working well -- because diplexers do work well when everything's in spec. :)

[feldon23]

All I'm saying is, if you can run a 5th wire, do it.

[turls]

I have had both for over 3 years, I had Replay first, and I thought I still liked that interface for a good 6 months or longer after I had both. Not anymore. Tivo all the way.

But in any case, it isn't like you have a choice. You seriously think the UI is going to be any real concern at all when you have the ability to record HD now, and your ReplayTV HD is probably going to die anytime anyway?

(I have 3 dead Quantum drives on my shelf. I've never had any other HD die at home. One of those was the original ReplayTV drive).

Originally posted by chriswood
Your post was just the one that I have been looking for... someone who has "Replay" and "Tivo" experience.

I have pre-ordered the HD-250. It will be the first time that I have ever seen the Tivo user interface. I have used the RePlay ShowStopper for about 3 years.

I (and my wife) LOVE the Replay user interface. It's incredibly fast "grid" architecture, and vast array of other great features, are superb.

[rogo]

I just don't believe there is any reason to run a 5th wire. (Yes, if you can, do it).

Any halfway decent diplexer on a single line, is going to work with miniscule signal strenth loss (something like 0.5 dB)....

The diplexer on a 5 x 8 that then splits the OTA signal 8 ways is a much different story and will fail for a lot more people.

Mark

[AbMagFab]

I agree, if you can run a 5th wire, do it. It just makes all sorts of diagnostics, etc., easier.

[HDTivo4prez]

Feldon,

I know the HD Tivo will come standard with a WD250GB HDD. Do you know if it is upgradeable? Can you install another drive in the system? Also, is the drive EIDE or SATA?

[AbMagFab]

Just speculating here (wth), but given that:

1) The OS is still Linux
2) The version of the Tivo software is still pretty much the same I think (or it's been reported not to have any 4.x features like folders)
3) The hardware is supposed to be pretty much the same
4) The box looks pretty much the same

Then I conclude that, at worst, it's like the DTivo2, and we need to buy a replacement IDE cable, a power splitter, and some form of HDD mount. And a HDD of course.

The main question is whether the current add-a-drive methods (a.k.a. BlessTivo, etc.) will work. And I'd guess they will since I think those are more Linux operations than Tivo software operations. I wonder about the >134GB limit (or whatever it was)?

[bigpuma]

Originally posted by AbMagFab
Just speculating here (wth), but given that:

1) The OS is still Linux
2) The version of the Tivo software is still pretty much the same I think (or it's been reported not to have any 4.x features like folders)
3) The hardware is supposed to be pretty much the same
4) The box looks pretty much the same

Then I conclude that, at worst, it's like the DTivo2, and we need to buy a replacement IDE cable, a power splitter, and some form of HDD mount. And a HDD of course.

The main question is whether the current add-a-drive methods (a.k.a. BlessTivo, etc.) will work. And I'd guess they will since I think those are more Linux operations than Tivo software operations. I wonder about the >134GB limit (or whatever it was)?

The other consideration might be heat. With 2 250 GB HDD I assume it will get quite warm inside so you might need a better fan or some other way to cool the machine. I think weaknees will probably be checking ASAP to see if it is upgradeable and if so providing one way to do it.

[hongcho]

Space, heat and power.

But we will soon know after someone has his/her hands on one.

Hong.

[tivoupgrade]

We are still waiting for ours to arrive. Given the 250GB drive that will be in it, it seems LBA48 support will be native as it is in the Pioneer DVD burning units.

Stay tuned.

FYI - we will probably scramble to get things tested and working as soon as our units arrive, however we are not going to immediately release an upgrade product for this unit until we are certain it is supportable and performs as expected.

Stay tuned,
Lou

[HDTivo4prez]

thanks

[stugrief]

Feldon, nice post. Very informative. A few questions for you, and let me preface my questions with a personal disclaimer that I am new to this, so I'm sure my questions are rather uninformed. But here goes...

I have an 18x20 dish w/dual LNBs w/2 DirecTV/TiVo receivers and 1 plain DirecTV receiver. I understand that for HD I need the Sat C kit. Here's where I'm confused: With the Sat C kit, there will now be 5 cables coming from the antenna. The built in 4x4 multiswitch can't handle the 5th input. Your diagram with a cascading 4x8 multiswitch, which I'd like to install, shows 5 inputs going from the antenna into the 4x4 multiswitch. What am I missing?

In addition to adding the Sat C, I'd like to add an antenna for off air HD programming. I understand from antennaweb.org that I can get away with a small multidirectional antenna. Is there a way to install this at/near the dish and connect the antenna to the cascading multiswitches? If so, is this a 6th input to the multiswitch? Also, any recommendations for a small multidirectional OA antenna?

Thanks, and apologies if these questions don't make any sense!

[dswallow]

The SatC kit includes a combiner that will be placed in line with one of the outputs of the 119° LNB. So only 4 inputs go to the multiswitch from LNB's.

A 5xN multiswitch provides for connection of an over-the-air antenna on the 5th input, which then is diplexed into all N outputs of the multiswitch. At the receiver(s) needing the antenna, you use a diplexer to split the satellite and over-the-air antenna signals out so they can go to their respective inputs on the receiver.

Avoid Terk antenna's; except in the most limited circumstances, they're junk. If you need something compact and you're within 20-30 miles of all your TV stations transmitters, look at an antenna like the Winegard SS-1000 Square Shooter: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/squareshooter.htm

[stugrief]

Thanks, Doug. Very helpful.

If I get a 5x8 multiswitch (is Terk's ok?) then what benefit is there in cascading a 4x4 into the 5x8 vs. tossing the 4x4 and going straight from dish and OA antenna into the 5x8?

[dswallow]

Originally posted by stugrief
Thanks, Doug. Very helpful.

If I get a 5x8 multiswitch (is Terk's ok?) then what benefit is there in cascading a 4x4 into the 5x8 vs. tossing the 4x4 and going straight from dish and OA antenna into the 5x8? If you've got the old elliptical dish with attached 4x4 multiswitch, I'd toss the 4x4 multiswitch. It just becomes another point of failure for you to worry about.

Phase III dish owners don't have much choice since the multiswitch is built into the LNB assembly.

The Terk BMS-58 is fine. I have that one myself. <$72.00 at www.buy.com.

[stugrief]

Thanks, Doug. I think I'm almost there...

I'll add a SatC kit and Winegard SS-1000 OA antenna; scrap the 4x4 MS that came with my dish; feed the satellite lines and the OA antenna into a Terk BMS-58; and then use a diplexer at whatever location I want to extract the OA signal to feed into an HD tuner (e.g., Hughes DVR-HD250).

Is that all right? Any challenge aligning the SatC? And diplexer you'd recommend?

[kbmyers]

Time of Order: 2/14/2004 2:50:31 PM
Order Type: Email
Order ID: 13451

Currently in the *other* camp with a couple of ReplayTVs. Delayed getting HD until I could record shows. Getting the new dish installed this weekend - now I can't wait to get my HD Tivo!

Kent

[dswallow]

Originally posted by stugrief
Thanks, Doug. I think I'm almost there...

I'll add a SatC kit and Winegard SS-1000 OA antenna; scrap the 4x4 MS that came with my dish; feed the satellite lines and the OA antenna into a Terk BMS-58; and then use a diplexer at whatever location I want to extract the OA signal to feed into an HD tuner (e.g., Hughes DVR-HD250).

Is that all right? Any challenge aligning the SatC? And diplexer you'd recommend? If you're already getting signals fine from 101&deg; and 119&deg;, the SatC kit is plug-and-play; you'll be aligned.

No particular recommendations on diplexers; there are different levels of quality, but I don't think there's a really major spread between them; just get one from wherever you get the multiswitch.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by kbmyers
Time of Order: 2/14/2004 2:50:31 PM
Order Type: Email
Order ID: 13451

Currently in the *other* camp with a couple of ReplayTVs. Delayed getting HD until I could record shows. Getting the new dish installed this weekend - now I can't wait to get my HD Tivo!

Kent Kent, I added your info to the chart, but just so you know, this wasn't the thread everybody's posting this stuff in. ;)

[edrock200]

Originally posted by dswallow
Kent, I added your info to the chart, but just so you know, this wasn't the thread everybody's posting this stuff in. ;)

Uh oh Kent, better move that post cause Feldon's on post patrol. ;)

[GreyGhost00]

First of all, great FAQ and very helpful.

I was hoping to clarify what remote the HD Tivo will ship with. Will it be the standard peanut remote, or will it have any sort of universal capabilities.

The HD Tivo will be replacing the Samsung TS-160 in my HT setup, and I currently use that remote to control the Receiver, TV and Pioneer amp.

If there's no capability to control the Pioneer, I'll have to go with a universal solution such as the Harmony.

Ease of use for the wife is a big factor :D

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by GreyGhost00
First of all, great FAQ and very helpful.

I was hoping to clarify what remote the HD Tivo will ship with. Will it be the standard peanut remote, or will it have any sort of universal capabilities.

The HD Tivo will be replacing the Samsung TS-160 in my HT setup, and I currently use that remote to control the Receiver, TV and Pioneer amp.

If there's no capability to control the Pioneer, I'll have to go with a universal solution such as the Harmony.

Ease of use for the wife is a big factor :D

Can't tell you from experience here, however considering the packaging, and what's been going on with all the different units out there, its likely to be a peanut remote and likely to respond to the same codes as your existing peanut remote.

[duffin]

A question mark just popped up above my head because I don't recall reading about the following in this FAQ thread.

My UTV works like other DirecTV DVR's where it needs 2 coax runs from the dish to feed 2 sat tuners.

But with the Hughes HD-Tivo, how do you feed two OTA tuners? Does it take a single coax and split in the box or do I need to be thinking external splitter?

GreyGhost00 - Our household with the toughest of WAF just switched to the Harmony and love it! ValueElectronics.com has the best deal (under accessories).

[maharg18]

Originally posted by duffin

But with the Hughes HD-Tivo, how do you feed two OTA tuners? Does it take a single coax and split in the box or do I need to be thinking external splitter?




It's been reported that it is split internally, so you only need 1 OTA feed.

[AbMagFab]

To be clear, there are 2 coax for the satellite feeds (dual tuner, one if you only want single tuner I'd guess), and one OTA coax for OTA HD.

Total of 3 coax into the back of the HD Tivo.

[hongcho]

> Total of 3 coax into the back of the HD Tivo.

And nothing (no coax, that is) comes out! :p

BTW, it's quite annoying that you are one ahead of me. :)

Hong.

[Baracuda]

Hitachi just announced a 400gig Deskstar. The article specifically mentioned PVRs as it's target :-)

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Baracuda
Hitachi just announced a 400gig Deskstar. The article specifically mentioned PVRs as it's target :-) I'm not sure I'll ever buy a Hitachi (aka IBM) drive again in my lifetime. Way too much experience recently with Deskstar drive failures.

[Baracuda]

Well, the HD makers all have their day in the sun, then overproduce and go to hell. I agree with you. I would not want to buy a "DeathStar" at this point.

[Tom in OH]

Can anyone confirm if the HD DVR250 will record and play back DD 5.1 if it's broadcast with the event?

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by Tom in OH
Can anyone confirm if the HD DVR250 will record and play back DD 5.1 if it's broadcast with the event?

No reason to think it won't given that DirecTV/TiVo combo boxes to date have had that capability.

[dswallow]

Originally posted by Tom in OH
Can anyone confirm if the HD DVR250 will record and play back DD 5.1 if it's broadcast with the event? Yes it can. It really can't help but do so as it's recording the digital stream as-is from DirecTV or OTA ATSC. For that matter, the DirecTV SD DVR's can do it too.

[Tom in OH]

excellent -- was hoping it would.... thx

I'm also hoping it will output the 5.1 stream though the HDMI and the optical out at same time. I'm not sure which connection I'll be using for audio with my system.

[stugrief]

After all the help from this and the pre-order thread, I've now ordered the $99 HD upgrade from DirecTV, and placed a deposit on the HR10-250 at Tweeter.

DirecTV insisted that I commit to the HD package for 1 year, but when I told the CSR that I really didn't want a higher monthly, she agreed to give me the HBO and Showtime parts of my service free for 6 months each, which pretty much covers the HD package for the year.

The Tweeter CSR told me they're expecting an initial shipment of 80 HR10-250s on April 15. Doesn't seem realistic, but one can hope. I am #30 on their list. Price is $999.99 but they have a price guarantee for 30 days. Although they won't match web prices, they will match other retailers like CC.

Thanks to all for the amazingly helpful info in these threads!

[feldon23]

FAQ Update:

-Added quote about standalone TiVo from TiVo.com.
-Changed model # from Hughes HD-DVR250 to DIRECTV HR10-250.
-Added Zenith Silver Sensor antenna
-Updated CBS/Fox national HD/ED comments
-Updated 'Programming' section to mention NFL Sunday Ticket, NBA TV, Spice HD
-Added Spice HD to 'What's available in HDTV' section
-Reworded Fox 'Programming' section
-Split HBO and Showtime into 2 sections under 'Programming' section

Keep the suggestions rolling folks.

[dlott]

Looks like the FCC is going to push digital a little faster than most of us have thought:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2004-03-15-digitaltv_x.htm

"The plan would require the pay-TV (Cable/DBS) services to convert digital signals to analog so they could be viewed on analog TV sets, the kind most people now have, FCC officials told USA TODAY.

That would let the government reclaim broadcasters' analog TV channels in 2006 so they can be auctioned to wireless firms, paving the way for new and improved services and raising billions for the U.S. Treasury. Also, police and fire agencies are expected to use the airwaves to improve spotty radio systems."

"Under the plan, the government in 2006 would immediately reclaim broadcasters' analog channels in the dozens of markets where cable and satellite serve 85% of homes. The "must-carry" rules would then apply to broadcasters' digital signals. And the pay-TV systems would be required to convert digital signals to analog for consumers with analog sets.

The providers would still be able to supply pure digital signals to people with digital sets, FCC officials say.

Broadcasters, though, worry that consumers who don't have cable or satellite would have to shell out more than $100 for a digital-to-analog converter box, though FCC officials say a subsidy program could be arranged."

[feldon23]

Have to think about this one, but it seems like what I've been hoping would happen. When I first read it, I thought they meant that cable companies would be required to put more digital channels back on the analog tier but now I think they mean making sure that analog TVs can always pick up a good package of local and national channels.

This also pushes Must Carry for digital AND analog local TV stations a step further.

For everyone with a regular TV hooked up to analog cable or rabbit ears let's sell them a heavily subsidized $30-50 adapter box that lets them watch a good chunk of channels on that TV. And don't charge them a monthly fee for those TVs.

[Todd76]

Originally posted by dlott
Looks like the FCC is going to push digital a little faster than most of us have thought:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2004-03-15-digitaltv_x.htm


For those who didn't follow the link, this is only a plan being considered at this time.

[AbMagFab]

And remember, analog is just 480i. Pretty much any set-top box has some form of 480i output, including every HD box out there.

Not such a big deal.

Cable companies, however, have adopted a "give away free" model, which is great for consumers, but will kill the cable companies in the long run. They can't possibly pay for all this hardware at $0-$10 per month, now including DVR's in some markets.

[Chris Gerhard]

A great thread, thanks to Feldon23. After reading this I am confident that DirecTV/TiVo will introduce a product that works well right from the start as the standard definition version did. My only complaint is no firewire but maybe the second generation will add that if the Dish Network PVR921 with firewire outperforms this PVR in the marketplace.

Now to search for the best place to put my order in.

Chris

[feldon23]

FAQ Update:

-Added logos for each category
-Split Standalone and OpenCable
-Improved # of tuners in DirecTV section
-Added 'simultaneous output' comments.
-Improved visibility of 'No HMO' comments
-Corrected 'American Television Standards Committee' to 'Advanced Television Systems Committee'

I guess I need to start writing a little FAQ about what cable and other providers are offering.

[martialman7]

I have an "HD Compatible" tv that would ordinarily need a receiver. Will the Hughes HD-DVR250 act as a receiver as well or would I also need a receiver along with the Tivo?

[neilaevans]

The HDTivo IS the receiver.

[slocko]

Martial,

The HD-Tivo would not be able to record HD, if it wasn't an HD receiver.

[martialman7]

Good news! Thanks.

[feldon23]

A DirecTV with TiVo HDTV receiver is the only equipment (other than a dish with appropriate multiswitch) you need to receive and record HDTV programming.

[Bigg]

What is the real deal with the digital broadcasting? i've heard about an 80% number that is it is not reached, the law will not happen. It is quite ridiculous though to stop broadcating in a way that has been used for 60 years. All of those little 2.6' tvs will be unusable, PIP and other functions will be unusable, and there aren't even any digital boxes out there that aren't HD and have a pricetag to reflect it. Requiring all stations to broadcast in digital, and giving them the option to get rid of the analog makes sense, but outlawing it? Someone needs to send some drug dogs to sniff out the marajauna these guys at the FCC are smoking. VCRs, TiVos and pc tuner cards would need converter boxes. these would have to be ir blasted without the possibility of twin channel watching w/o multiple boxes. AND the range of these digital is in many cases shorter, so people would no longer be able to watch the news from 5 different cities. Although many people will have digital sets, most of those willl still have analog second and third sets. THIS LAW IS RIDICULOUS!!!! maybe HD for 10% of all channels, but not THIS.