Ultimate Wireless Network [Text View]

ggfox

12-24-2003, 05:02 PM

Hi,

I understand theoretical -vs- actual speeds. That's was not the point of my post... What I am trying to get at is the fact that the bottleneck in the setup suggested by "vlxjim" (54mbps bridge) is the USB port/driver on the TiVo unit. Thus regardless of how fast your data flies over wireless, the TiVo I/O throughput on its USB ports is limited to what the port/drivers support: USB 1.1 (12mbps). I think his solution does not do much but improve performance just notch over regular 802.11b (11mbps). I don't think the TiVos communicate at speeds beyond what USB 1.1 supports: 12mbps.

This is the way I am looking at it. You just have to follow the chain of devices and their "speeds" under this type of setup:

1. TiVo phys. USB 2.0 port + TiVo USB 1.1 driver = USB 1.1 virutal port = 12mbps max speed (theoretical)

2. Linksys USB200M 10/100 USB-Ethernet + virtual USB 1.1 port (above) = Linksys "fast speed mode" (not "high speed 54mbps mode" per documentation) = 12 mbps transfer rate (theoretical).

3. Linksys WGA54G 54mbps bridge + Linksys USB200M in "fast speed mode" = 12 mbps transfer rate (lower denominator of both devices).

4. Linksys WGA54G 54mbps bridge + Linksys WGA54G 54mbps bridge = 54mbps wireless transfer rate (theoretical)

If I am correct on this, you can see that from point #1, the bottleneck is the USB 1.1 driver built-in to the TiVo. Regardless if your unit has an USB 2.0 port, as long as the driver is 1.1, you can only get 12mbps (theo).

Thus, no matter how fast your data flies over the wireless link (point #4, the two Game bridges), it will only go through (in and out) the TiVo USB port at no more than the supported theoretical speed (12mbps) because of the USB 1.1 driver, and the fact that the Linksys USB200M adapter will only switch to 12mpbs (not 100mbps) when connected to a USB 1.1 port/driver (point #2). The lowest common denominator in this chain is the USB 1.1 driver, so the data will never pass through it faster than its capacity.

However, I do think this setup does improve transfer a little over standard 802.11b adapters. Since the actual (not theoretical) speeds of the 802.11b setup will be definately much less than 11mbps, and the 54mpbs bridge setup should pipe data faster to the USB port, which may then process it closer or perhaps even faster than 11mbps but always less than the max 12mbps supported by the TiVo port (theo). ... but I don't know that this type of performance improvement is worth the extra $$.

Perhaps someone with a hacked TiVo unit can actually run some benchmarks on these scenarios. .. ?

I think until we get USB 2.0 drivers on the Tivo Series 2, this setup will not work at full capacity all the way through the chain of devices. On a side note, it should work on TiVo Series 1 with the TurboNET 100mbps ethernet card in place of the Linksys USB200M USB adapter. Since then you will not have the USB 1.1 port bottleneck, and your slowest device would be the 54mbps bridge (802.11g!)

Regards,
George

pcar1947

12-25-2003, 12:36 PM

I am intrigued by your solution. I have a TIVO 80 Hour hooked to Linksys WUSB-12. I have just orderd a Pioneer PRDVR810H and would like to include this in my network. I run a Linksys Wireless -G network in the house hooked to 4 computers and one Tivo Device. Do you see any issues in implementing your solution, other than cost ? I believe I have to dump the WUSB-12 adapter?
I believe I need to order these parts?

2 Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapters
2 Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter

My Router is located in an upstairs office and the Pioneer will be in the basement. Will this be an issue?

In other words could you draw me a installation Map?

Thanks in Advance for any reponse.;) :confused:

pcar1947

12-25-2003, 05:33 PM

In your humble opinion is it worth it to implement "vlxjim solution"? Or do you see a better long tem soluton? Keep in mind I like his solution.

ggfox

12-25-2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by pcar1947
In your humble opinion is it worth it to implement "vlxjim solution"? Or do you see a better long tem soluton? Keep in mind I like his solution.

Hi pcar1947,

Well, assuming what I've read is correct in that while TiVo Series 2 have physical USB 2.0 ports, but only USB 1.1 drivers for them. Then the quick answer is no.

If the driver's on the TiVo's are still v1.1, then the USB 2 port will only work at that spec, which supports up to 12mbps of throughput (theoretical). Being that the case, then the ports are the bottleneck in the chain of devices suggested by the solution proposed by vlxjim. So no matter how fast the 802.11g or Ethernet devices communicate (54mbps / 100mbps theo.), they can get or send data to the TiVos at the speed the TiVo ports support (12mbps theo.)

While I do think vlxjim's solution will improve performance a little, I don't think its worth the extra $$$ bucks it will cost to get all four devices in question (two USB2 10/100 adapters, and the 802.11g game bridges).

The speed difference between the supported (and cheaper) wireless solution of 802.11b at 11mbps -vs- the virtual USB 1.1 ports at 12mbps is not that big, even after accounting for the actual -vs- theoretical speeds. Although I believe other factors could make this speed difference better (greater) under certain circumstances, but that's for someone with the setups in place to benchmark.

It all boils down to a simple analogy... Its like having a 54-lane highway full of cars all heading to the same exit which is only 12-lane wide. No matter how fast traffic was on the highway, you get a big slowdown at the exit due to congestion.

I think until we get new USB 2.0 software driver updates for our TiVO units we will not be able to do high-speed (> 12mbps) through the USB ports on the units. Anybody got any info on when this might happen? :) .. or better yet, has this already happened and I am still in the dark :) ???

Now, if you have a TiVo Series 1 with a TurboNet 100mbps card, then I think the solution proposed by vlxjim would work well. But unfortunately Home Media Option is not available for Series 1, and the only advantage of this solution for Series 1 would be connecting a hacked unit to a PC over high-speed wireless for transfering recordings, doing backups, etc.

Regards,
George

vlxjim

12-26-2003, 02:52 AM

The gain that you will get is not only in better transfer rates but in much better singal and link strength.The WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter get a much better signal and link strength than the WUSB11, I have used and tested both, and can tell you that I can pick up three other wireless B networks in my neighborhood with the WGA54G. Plus even if you only get 20Mbs do to transfer errors, interference or bad signal and link strength it is still faster than the wireless B network. This is important if you want to transfer and play in Best quality in real time. Or you don't want to slow down your wireless G network. Forget the USB 1.1 as long as you can transfer data faster than Tivo you won't get data drop outs and wirless B can't keep up were a wireless G network can.

This is not over kill I can watch a little faster than real time the transfer of best quality video. I just select a movie from the now playing on the other tivo hit play now and start watching the movie there is no waiting and after about 10 or 15 min. I can start to pass through the commercials. This is like the performance of a hardwired network. I don't know of anyone that can do this with wireless B. Like I said before if TiVo get us USB 2.0 drivers I'll be setup I will then tranfer 4-5x faster than real time in best quality.

And don't forget you need no drivers from TiVo for this wireless setup you can change firmware, routers or whatever you need and TiVo just thinks it's hook to a hardwired network.

ggfox

12-26-2003, 02:46 PM

Hmm....

I have 802.11b at home and never had a problem with signal strength. It always gets about 90% which is just as good as my PCs. I also pick up 4 other networks in the building I live. I guess it all depends on the equipment you are using, location/distance, and setup.

But I agree with you.. if your current wireless equipment is not working well, then something should be done about it. But if my 802.11b setup was weak in signal and slower than average, then I would just buy a signal amplifier/booster (e.g, Linksys WSB24) rather than go with a more expensive all-around replacement which is not going to yield its full capacity due to current bottlenecks.

And you do need two "built-in" drivers from TiVo (USB and adapter). Without them what you plug into your USB (e.g., USBM200) will not work, and most importantly the drivers also determine how adapters work on that bus (speedwise; USB 1.1 = 12mbps, USB 2.0 = 480mbps).

Regards,
George

vlxjim

12-27-2003, 03:26 AM

You not getting the point. With your wireless B network at 100% you still can't get real time transfers in best quality or high quality as far as that gos. Wireless B is just to slow and a signal amplifier/booster won't get you there either. Plus when TiVo gets us USB 2.0 drivers. The ones that build on a B network well be left in the dust.

This post was for those that wanted a wireless G network But are still waiting on TiVo for drivers.

When I say that you need no drivers from TiVo for this wireless setup I'm talking about the wireless side TiVo has the drivers for the USB200M they just need to update the chipset driver.

morac

12-29-2003, 05:27 PM

I have to agree with vlxjim. The best wireless speeds I've seen with my 802.11b network is around 4 mbps (and that's with one wire link and one wireless link). Even with the artificial 12 mbps USB1.1 cap, its still 3 times faster than using 802.11b.

There is a cost/performance issue though. Is getting around 3 times the speed worth paying an extra
2 x $90 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00009X6DT/002-3296418-7983225?v=glance) + 2 x $27 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000085ZKV/qid=1072736292/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1_etk-electronics/002-3296418-7983225?v=glance&s=electronics&n=172282) - 2 x $$40 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005AW1H/qid=1072736355/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/002-3296418-7983225?v=glance&s=electronics) = $154 more than using a wireless B network. That's for 2 TiVo's. It would be more if you have more TiVos.

If you could use the Linksys WUSB54G Wireless-G USB Adapter (which you can't) it would be less of an issue since it would only be $20 more.

pcar1947

12-29-2003, 09:40 PM

I agree with MORAC this is a cost/benefit issue. I also think that VIXJIM has presented this board with an alternative solution that is on the cutting edge.

I was getting ready to order the necessary equipment when I ran across these lines in one of your post.

"And don't forget you need no drivers from TIVO for this wireless setup you can change firmware, routers or whatever you need and TIVO just thinks it's hook to a hardwired network."
?When I say that you need no drivers from TIVO for this wireless setup I'm talking about the wireless side TIVO has the drivers for the USB200M they just need to update the chipset driver.?

Please clarify. How do you upset the chipset driver.

My Proposed Configuration will be as follows

1.) TiVo 2 80Hr, Linksys USB200M, WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter

2.) Pioneer DVR-810H (wireless/HMO enabled) Linksys USB200M, WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter

Linksys WRT54G Wireless-G Broadband Router

Do you see any issues?

Before I read this I had already invested in a WUSB-12 Adpater, and it works( Albeit slow at $58).

vlxjim

12-29-2003, 11:54 PM

TiVo has the drivers for the USB 1.1 the chipset on the mother board, but the chipset on newer TiVos 2's have a chipsets that support USB 2.0. So TiVo just need to update the chipset driver so that it uses the USB 2.0 standard. And the USB200M is USB 2.0 and backwards compatible with USB 1.1. If TiVo get us the new driver you will get a free network upgrade that will transfer 4-5x faster so that a 1 hour best quality movie will transfer in 15-20 min.

ggfox

12-30-2003, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by vlxjim
You not getting the point. With your wireless B network at 100% you still can't get real time transfers in best quality or high quality as far as that gos. Wireless B is just to slow and a signal amplifier/booster won't get you there either.
Hi,
Point was taken and understood. But that was not my point...

All I am saying is that by doing your workaround, you cannot get anything more than 12mbps (theoretical) into or out of a TiVo unit, no matter what kind of device chain you plug into it (100mbps, 54mbps, etc.).

Like you said on your original post: "...the TiVo's USB port is now the bottle neck", ...a 12mbps bottleneck.

I am not debating wether you are getting better performance or not over your old 802.11b setup. I believe you are getting better performance, just not what the high-speed hardware in question supports and that is something that should be clear to anybody who contemplates this solution now; There is a bottleneck, and its the current TiVo USB 1.1 driver. Once that is taken care of, then you can use the high-speed network hardware/setup to its max capacity.

That said, and like I have noted on my other posts, I know your setup has merit and will improve performance over a standard 802.11b setup. You're probably gettings a few extra mbps out of that setup over 802.11b, and that makes a lot of differnce between real and non-real time transfers (considering that an average MPEG-2 DVD is encoded for real-time playback at just only 6 to 7 mbps.) But I also believe that the level of improvement is directly related to how bad the replaced 802.11b setup was performing. For me, I have no complaints with my 802.11b setup. But I know its a different story for a lot of folks out there.

That's why IMHO, for me its not worth the extra $$ (just yet). I will just wait for USB 2.0 drivers from TiVo and then go with the following supported 100mbps wired or 54mbps wireless solution. Hopefully this will just be around the corner (but probably not :( ) ...For those who don't want to wait, have the spare $$, or definately need more than their existing 802.11b setup, then your solution is definately the best wireless alternative, aside from wired (and perhaps faster) solutions. For those just wanting to get into wireless, I say "think about it". Its definately worth considering and the right solution for many; But just be aware of (#1) the current bottleneck and (#2) the remote posibility that in the future TiVo may drop or not (fully) support the devices you purchase for this solution today.

Plus when TiVo gets us USB 2.0 drivers. The ones that build on a B network well be left in the dust.
Agreed. But I am (and have been for a while) on a 802.11b network. Just not ready to buy hardware that could (but most likely not) be dropped or never supported when they release 2.0 drivers and new network adapter drivers. There are no garantees/announcements for upcoming TiVo support, although I have to admit they have a good record... but kinda slow on delivery ;)

This post was for those that wanted a wireless G network But are still waiting on TiVo for drivers.
My posts were meant to dicuss/clarify the existing 12mbps USB bottleneck which will greatly reduce any wireless-G solution's resulting capacity. I think this thread has accomplished that, and hopefully some folks will find it useful.

When I say that you need no drivers from TiVo for this wireless setup I'm talking about the wireless side TiVo has the drivers for the USB200M they just need to update the chipset driver.
Understood also... Just making the point that such 100mbps ethernet adapter, altho supported by TiVo, will only run at no more than 12mbps.

On a side note, and for those who may be interested, I actually contacted TiVo support to check on the USB 1.1 driver & limit issue, and they responded today. Here's part of the email:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Info@Tivo.com [mailto:Info@Tivo.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 1:34 PM
> To: [removed]
> Subject: Re: CID# 114327: TiVo Web Response
>
> Hello George,
>
> Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support. I understand
> you would like to verify that the USB drivers on the TiVo DVR
> are version 1.1.
>
> The USB drivers are version 1.1 and can run up to 12mbps. The
> device that is USB 2.0 compatible will work with the DVR but
> only at the 12mbps.
>
> ...

Regards :)

George

pcar1947

12-30-2003, 11:03 AM

From the response in the email from TIVO Support it doesn't appear that TIVO has a USB 2.0 version on the drawing board. Oh Well!

I ordered parts anyway. I will let you know how it turns out.

mjcollart

12-30-2003, 09:47 PM

Please explain how you've connected your TiVos to your USB adapters and then how you connected the game adapters and then, in turn, linked them to run on the wireless G.

Did you plug the USB200M adapters into the TiVo's USB ports?

Is there Linksys software that you need to install over the Wireless G router's?

And how and where is the Game adapter connected?

I have a wireless G router and two laptops using wireless G network adapter cards.

Returned a USB wireless b adapter which I could not get running.

More details would be appreciated.

msadesign

12-30-2003, 09:47 PM

This thread raises some questions for me; I've just started to setup my TiVo network. First, I have the Series2 installed, and working, and then I have the HMO working (except it won't play streaming radio stations, yet).

The questions:

I understand that when HMO plays a song from a remote computer, the song is streamed over the local net. True?

When you play a video selection on TiVo_1 that is recorded on TiVo_2, am I correct that TiVo actually moves the data rather than streaming? and that this is because the available bandwidth is insufficient? And that because of this fact one would want to consider the use of wire rather than wireless?

I am using wireless and plan to use wireless to expand, but maybe I should re-think using wire? (ick, what a pain!)

Thanks,

Michael Spencer

SafariKC

12-31-2003, 12:53 AM

I decided to run out and get 2 of the USB200M Wired Adaptors and ran a wire between my two tivo's tonight... I can confirm that you can indeed stream Real Time Best in that situation. :-)

KC

mjcollart

12-31-2003, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by KermitTheFrog
I decided to run out and get 2 of the USB200M Wired Adaptors and ran a wire between my two tivo's tonight... I can confirm that you can indeed stream Real Time Best in that situation. :-)

KC

===============================================
Linksys shows the USB200M as a Wireless Network Adapter!

So I do not understand "and then ran a wire between my two tivos"

Questions:

Do you simply plug the USB200M into the back of the TiVo?
Do you need to install on your computer additional Linksys software to see this remote wireless adapter?
Do you reboot your TiVo or anything else to get this going?

As a TiVo dummy, any detailed steps would be appreciated.

mjcollart

12-31-2003, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by mjcollart
===============================================
Linksys shows the USB200M as a Wireless Network Adapter!

So I do not understand "and then ran a wire between my two tivos"

Questions:

Do you simply plug the USB200M into the back of the TiVo?
Do you need to install on your computer additional Linksys software to see this remote wireless adapter?
Do you reboot your TiVo or anything else to get this going?

As a TiVo dummy, any detailed steps would be appreciated.

=============================================
Ignore my previous question. After rereading Linksys site I see that the USB200M needs a cable, too. Thanks.

pcar1947

01-13-2004, 01:09 AM

Recieved all the equipment to install this solution today. Running into some issues though.

TIVOs do not recognize the Game Adapters.

I have configured both on my PC.

The first Game Adapter IP address is 198.168.1.250. When hooking this up to TIVO 1 it say that this is duplicate IP . How do you resolve this? When I attempt a connection in TIVO setup it fails. Same with TIVO2.

I am running Zone Alarm Pro. Could that be the ISsue?

I have read through the setup guide several times. I must be missing something.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Paul C

msadesign

01-13-2004, 08:46 AM

If it says it's a duplicate address why don't you just change it?

Michael Spencer

vlxjim

01-13-2004, 01:56 PM

When you configure the game adapters set one at 192.168.1.250 and the other at 192.168.1.249. make sure that the the switch on the back is set for infrastructure. If you have the router set to be the DHCP server make sure that the game adapters and the TiVos and set to Obtain IP address automatically. If you don't use the DHCP feature you must set the IP the subnet the gateway (which is the IP of the router) and the DSN on the game adap. and the TiVos. Also make sure that the SSID is the same on the router the game adap. and TiVo.

If you can I would use the DHCP sever feature and set the router the game adap. the TiVos and your computers to Obtain IP address automatically. Just make sure the router and adapters are set to the same SSID and all are set for infrastructure mode.

hope this helps

Jim :^)

pcar1947

01-17-2004, 10:07 AM

Jim,

I am sorry it took so long to get back to you (wife issues). Thanks for the response.

They are both working now however I have not experienced the real time transfer yet, although the speed of transfer is much improved.

Whereas a thirty minute program took up to 2 hours to transfer now it transfers in about 45 minutes.

The distance I am trying to transfer is approximately about 30 feet. The router and modem are in an upstairs office and one Tivo is in the basement and the other is in my upstairs Bedroom.

I will probably go back in and tweak the game adapters by checking all the settings. I previously had a G router set to mixed, because of the Tivo's on my network and now I'll set it to Wireless G only.

Thanks again

coldtoes

01-17-2004, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by msadesign
I understand that when HMO plays a song from a remote computer, the song is streamed over the local net. True? True.

When you play a video selection on TiVo_1 that is recorded on TiVo_2, am I correct that TiVo actually moves the data rather than streaming? and that this is because the available bandwidth is insufficient? And that because of this fact one would want to consider the use of wire rather than wireless?Actually it's copied, not moved, but I think that's what you meant. I have no idea if the engineers made that choice because of the insufficient bandwidth, but, as Kermit pointed out above, you will definitely get better speeds over a wired network. So you have to balance home aesthetics with TiVo performance. Personally, I've adapted to the limited throughput, but I'm slowly upgrading my network to 802.11g (and wired portions to 100bT) so that I'll be ready when TiVo enables the USB 2.0 port and 802.11g support.

pcar1947

01-17-2004, 11:00 PM

I am Finally experiencing Real Time transfer from TIVO 1 to TIVO 2. The last step in the install is to run Guided Setup on the Tivo Boxes again, although I don't know why. That seemed to do the trick.

Anyway thanks for the solution and everyones help.

Crrink

01-18-2004, 02:49 PM

Is there any advantage in using the Game Adapters, or a regular bridge versus just buying another router that can be set to bridge mode?

I'm wondering because while bridges are pretty expensive, I see routers go on sale for ~$55 to ~75 all the time. The router would also give you the benefit of having a switch built in, in case you wanted to connect more than one component to your network.

jfalkman

01-18-2004, 05:33 PM

Kinda off the topic, but not really. I have 2 Series 2 tivos both with HMO. They are currently hooked to my home network, Linksys Wireless G, via wireless b WUSB11 adaptors. I want to speed up the transfer time. Can I hook 2 wired adaptors and a cross over cable along for transfering and still use the wireless to get updates??

vlxjim

01-18-2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by coldtoes
Actually it's copied, not moved, but I think that's what you meant. I have no idea if the engineers made that choice because of the insufficient bandwidth, but, as Kermit pointed out above, you will definitely get better speeds over a wired network. So you have to balance home aesthetics with TiVo performance. Personally, I've adapted to the limited throughput, but I'm slowly upgrading my network to 802.11g (and wired portions to 100bT) so that I'll be ready when TiVo enables the USB 2.0 port and 802.11g support.

With the set up we are talking about you will not get better speed with a wired network over this wireless network. Both will work the same until we get the USB 2.0 drivers then the wired network will be faster. And the TiVo is coping not moving but with are setup it will copy faster than real time so you can watch in real time use the few. and rev. pause and finsh watching latter. After you are done TiVo will ask if you want to delete the movie or not.

As to bridging two or more routers that might be possable I have not tried it but I have bridge them in the past with pc's and had good luck. But for me and some others that would mean that I would need three wireless G routers. And as far as I have found is that if you are in bridge mode you can't use the access point mode not sure thought. Give it a try and let us know.

Jim

morac

02-01-2004, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by vlxjim
As to bridging two or more routers that might be possable I have not tried it but I have bridge them in the past with pc's and had good luck. But for me and some others that would mean that I would need three wireless G routers. And as far as I have found is that if you are in bridge mode you can't use the access point mode not sure thought. Give it a try and let us know.

There was new firmware released for the WRT54G (2.02.2) and the WAP54G (2.06) the other day which implements WDS bridging. This allows both devices to act as both an AP and a bridge simultaneously. A more detailed explanation can be found here (http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/wireless/2003/08/28/wireless_bridging.html).

joeyca

02-02-2004, 10:36 PM

VLXJIM

Well, finally broke down and spent $500+ on all the hardware (completely upgraded everything to g speed). Everything installed & working but the speed does not appear much better. Two quick questions (I hope quick):

1) How do you tell the signal strength on the Game Adapter?

2) I cannot connect to the gaming adapters web-based utility? Any tricks?

Thanks!

vlxjim

02-02-2004, 11:38 PM

joeyca,

For both of your questions you have to be pluged in to a computer I use a laptop for this. You can then get your signal strength and use the web utility. Make sure you have different IP addresses on all your equipment. If your setup is right you should see a big difference.

jmarks2001

02-04-2004, 11:15 AM

I have a DirecTivo receiver and even though it currently doesn't support HMO, I've been trolling this board so I'll be ready to go wireless if it does (I'm not holding my breath). I'm guessing that the stand-alone Series 2 Tivos don't have a built in ethernet port and that's the reason why they require the USB Ethernet Adapter, thus causing the 12Mbs bottleneck with USB v1.1.

However, the Hughes HDVR2 DirecTivo does have a built-in ethernet port. I know it's only speculation, but can I assume that if HMO becomes available, I'll be able to use a Wireless-G bridge (or game adapter) to connect directly to the DirecTivo's ethernet port and get "G" quality transfer speeds without all this hassle?

Also, a more general for those of you that have HMO, how does it work when you want to watch a recorded program from another Tivo? Can you start watching it before it's finished copying? Does it kind of work like watching a live program that hasn't finished yet, where you can fast-forward until you catch up to Live TV (or in this case, up to the most recently recorded portion). Or do you just have to wait until the whole thing is finished copying?

Thanks

jmarks2001

02-04-2004, 01:40 PM

I take back that last post. The DirecTivo doesn not have a built-in ethernet port. Whatever I do will involve a USB Ethernet adapter. Now the question is, wireless or not wired?

Will I notice a significant difference between the normal 4-5 Mbs you get from an 802.11b setup versus the full 12 Mbs (allowed by the USB port) that I would get from hard-wiring to a 100Mbs network?

If so, I'm probably better of hard-wiring it and getting an immediate benefit and if/when the Tivos are updated to support USB 2.0, I'll be cruising at the full 100 Mbs.

However, if there isn't much of a difference, it will be much easier and cheaper for me to go with a USB 1.1 and 802.11b wireless setup, especially if there are no plans to upgrade Tivo to support USB 2.0. Any word on this type of upgrade?

Bobbaxter

02-13-2004, 05:24 PM

I have purchased the following:
1 Linksys wrt54G wireless router
2 WGA54G wireless game adapters
2 Linksys USB 200M

Set up:
2 Tivo series 80 hours - different rooms (living room and bedroom)
1 HP Desktop Computer with roadrunner (office) - router would go here

I plan on setting the network up to obtain IP addresses automatically and all switches set to infrastructure.

Questions:

1) In what order do you install the items to set up the network?

2) How do you configure the game adapters? Do you plug them first into the router and then once configured move them? I assume you set them for network and not PC to PC gaming.

3) Do you need to use the web based stuff for the game adapter once you connect it to the USB 200M near the Tivos?

3) How do you set up the USB 200M? It comes with a CD. Can i just plug it into the back of the tivo and connect it to the game adapter without a set up?

4) Any special set up for the Router?

5) Do you need to run guided set up again from the tivos in order to get the better speed? Does that erase any programs?

thank you so much for the help. Bob

jshore

02-14-2004, 06:30 PM

Somewhat of a wireless newbie, so please bear with me...

I currently have an Apple Airport Extreme (54g), 2 tivo series 2units with linksys usb adapters running at B-speed and all is well (albeit slow).

If i try the linksys usb200m and WGA54g wireless g game adapter route, is this pretty much plug and play with an apple airport extreme? Will it even work with an imac, vs. a pc?

thanks for any input....

ps is there any way to know if my series 2 is the new kind that can be upgraded to usb 2.0 in the future, or if it's the older kind that is usb 1.1 all the way, even if tivo updates its software?

thanks again

vlxjim

02-15-2004, 01:00 AM

First you have to plug the game adapters in to a computer I use a laptop for this. You can use the confi utility or the web one. When you configure the game adapters set one at 192.168.1.250 and the other at 192.168.1.249. make sure that the the switch on the back is set for infrastructure. If you have the router set to be the DHCP server make sure that the game adapters and the TiVos are set to Obtain IP address automatically. Also make sure that the SSID is the same on the router the game adap. and TiVo. Just plug the USB 200M in TiVo already has the drivers for it. Plug in the USB 200Ms in hookup the router setup the router. Go to the TiVo setup and switch from phone line to network and set to Obtain IP address automatically. restart the TiVo's and enjoy. This
does not that erase any recordings.

hope this helps

Jim :^)

vlxjim

02-15-2004, 01:11 AM

jshore

All most plug and play, but you well need to configure the game adapters by hooking them up to a computer first. I'm not sure if there is a config program for the Mac. If not it's a one time setup you must have access to a pc.

Series 2 TiVo's with usb 2.0 have a ser.# that starts with a 2.

jshore

02-15-2004, 08:46 AM

vlxjim...

thanks for the posts so far...

just want to make sure i have this straight.

Once i get the game adapters configured to 192.168.1.250 and 249 respectively (either with my imac or by borrowing a friend's pc..), then is setup as follows...?

1. plug usb200m into each tivo. (Is this to convert the usb plugin to allow the ethernet plug of the game adapter?)
2. plug each game adapter into each usb200m.
3. make sure tivo is set to obtain ip address automatically in the tivo on-screen setup (I already have it on network setting because i have two wireless "b" adapters right now).
4. restart tivo and enjoy.

Is that it?

Are there any settings on my airport extreme that need to be tweaked? I noticed that in my airport admin utility, the "configure" setting is set at "using DHCP."

Thanks again!

jshore

02-15-2004, 09:01 AM

one last newbie question...

how do i determine the ssid of an airport extreme?

in admin utility, i see the following sets of numbers:

IP Address: (followed by numbers)
Subnet Mask (followed by numbers)
Router: (followed by numbers)

By the way, all these settings are under the "Configure using DHCP" option....

Also, my WAN Ethernet speed is set at default. Options to change to are:
10mbps/Half duplex
10mbps/Full duplex
100mbps/half duplex
100mbps/full duplex

do i need to change these in any way?

thanks

bedelman

02-15-2004, 10:13 AM

The SSID of the Airport is the "Wireless Network Name" that's displayed in the Airport Admin Utility. Note that the normal IP address range for an Airport is 10.0.1.xxx (where xxx is a value from 1 to 254). In which case, I would think you need to use 10.0.1.250 and 249 addresses for the game adapters instead of the 192.168.1.xxx addresses (or you could change the IP address range for the Base Station)

jshore

02-15-2004, 10:25 AM

what's the difference between the 10.0.1.xxx addressing and the 192.168.1.x addressing?

Good catch - on my airport, it's set to use the 10.0.1.xxx addressing....

bob - any idea if the linksys can be configured with an imac?

bedelman

02-15-2004, 12:05 PM

There is no real difference in the addressing. I believe there are four address ranges that are used for internal networks and are never used for public IP addresses. 10.0.xxx.xxx and 192.168.xxx.xxx are two of them. I believe another one begins with 169 which usually gets used for "self-assigned" IP addresses (when a network card can't find a DHCP server).

I use the older LinkSys WET11 802.11b bridge with my Airport Base Station for the game systems (XBOX, PS2, and GameCube). I changed WET11 to work on the 10.0.1.xxx range.

I haven't used the LinkSys game adapters, but I would imagine they should be able to work.

Some of what I found with the WET11 bridge from LinkSys may also apply to the game adapters.

With the WET11, I was able to configure it completely from the Mac also. Since they come from LinkSys with the IP address preset to 192.168.1.225, it wasn't possible for me to connect to it from the Mac which was on the 10.0.1.xxx network. I disconnected the Mac from the network, connected it directly to the WET11, and manually set the Mac's IP address to 192.168.1.5 (setting the router/gateway IP address to 192.168.1.1). I could then get to the LinkSys config screen by going to 192.168.1.225.

Make sure you change your Mac settings back to the way they were when you re-connect to the network.

msadesign

02-15-2004, 12:13 PM

Bob,

I've been following your posts and hoping that someone else would ask you to do what I need: a sense of what needs to be installed on a Mac, and in what order.

I'm hoping you'll be as complete as you have been on other questions! like, what files, etc.

Any chance?

Thanks.

Michael Spencer

jshore

02-15-2004, 03:09 PM

well, after a trip to best buy, configuring the linksys adapters via my imac (bob - thanks for the tip about changing the ip address - worked flawlessly), and hooking one up to my bedroom tivo and one to my living room tivo, i saw no gains in speed. so it's back to best buy to return all this and back to the old usb wireless adapters i had and usb 1.1 speeds for now. (Plus, when my wife saw how much i was spending on all this, she said it better go twice as fast....)

i'll just keep checking for any tivo updates to usb2.0 so i can have a true "g" wireless network....

bedelman

02-15-2004, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by msadesign
Bob,

I've been following your posts and hoping that someone else would ask you to do what I need: a sense of what needs to be installed on a Mac, and in what order.

I'm hoping you'll be as complete as you have been on other questions! like, what files, etc.

Any chance?

Thanks.

Michael Spencer Michael,
What are you trying to do? Use the 802.11g game adapters (or a wireless "bridge")? I've only done something similar in the past with the older LinkSys WET11 802.11b wireless bridge. There is nothing that needs to be "installed" on the Mac at all. The WET11 was configured completely by using the web interface that's built into it. I've not tried doing any of the 802.11g work using game adapters (or a 802.11g wireless bridge).

It important to know, that nothing will work any faster than the slowest component. So if you have 802.11g bridges but your wireless access point/router is only 802.11b, you won't be able to go any faster than the slowest component -- in this case, it's the 802.11b only wireless access point.

Bobbaxter

02-15-2004, 10:57 PM

I have purchased the following:
1 Linksys wrt54G wireless router
2 WGA54G wireless game adapters
2 Linksys USB 200M
1 sony series 2 80 hours - 110 Tivo service number
1 tivo series 2 60 hours - 140 Tivo service number

thank you for the suggestions. I set all components to obtain IP addresses automatically and configured the game adpaters as discussed. Everything worked well for about 20 minutes. The 60 hour tivo keeps losing the connection. I have to constantly reboot the machine to have it find the network again. I've tried running the guided set up and did a complete reinstall of Tivo. Any ideas? Any way to set up the Tivo or the game adapter so either one doesn't lose the connection? Do I need to do anything special with the router? This is strange because the sony is working flawlessly and they are both running the same Tivo operating system (4.0.1b). Both units are about equal distance from the router. thank you in advance. Bob

vlxjim

02-16-2004, 02:14 AM

jshore,

Sounds like you might of not had it all setup right. Forget the USB 1.1 or 2.0 for right now, wireless "B" 11mbs is really only 4-5mbs and "G" 54mbs is 22-25mbs, the usb is 12mbs. So if you are setup right you should see a huge speed gain. I've setup a few of these so far and all have made a big diffrence. Try to transfer a 1 hour best quality movie it take me 45-48 min. It use to take 5-6 hours with the "B" setup.

vlxjim

02-16-2004, 02:28 AM

Bobbaxter,

I had the same thing happen to me two times. The first time I reset every thing the next time I restarted just the TiVo. I have not had one problem sence. You might be getting interferance from a cordless or micowave. I switch out my cordless phones to the 54gig one and took care of that problem. I use to not be able to use my laptop and phone at the same time.

Bobbaxter

02-16-2004, 12:35 PM

one other thought I had. Would it help to change the channel on the router and game identifier? I had the router set for G only and channel 6. I set the same channel on the game adapters. Would it help to change the channel setting? any thoughts? what about going back to a mixed networok of 802.11b and 802.11g. I don't have anything using the wireless network other than the game adapters which is why i left the router at G network only.

If I go to a static IP set up, what do I do. How would you set up the router, Tivo, and game adapters. I've used the web based linkys software but it is a bit complicated for me. thanks again. Bob

1 Linksys wrt54G wireless router
2 WGA54G wireless game adapters
2 Linksys USB 200M
1 sony series 2 80 hours - 110 Tivo service number
1 tivo series 2 60 hours - 140 Tivo service number

vlxjim

02-16-2004, 01:24 PM

Bobbaxter,

You could try channel 11. I use mix mode. For a static IP uncheck obtain IP addresses automatically. Use 192.168.1.1 for the router ,use 192.168.1.249 and 192.168.1.250 for the game adapters, use 192.168.1.25 and 192.168.1.30 for the TiVo's and 192.168.1.5 for your computer. Use the subnet mask of 255.255.255.0 and gateway of 192.168.1.1 on all. Make sure the SSID are all the same use ("linksys
" or make onr up). Also and you usng WEP Encryption if so try turnning it off and see if that helps. If it dose try a diffrent key and bit (64 or 128bit).

jdmass

05-14-2004, 06:59 AM

vlxjim,

Thanks for posting this configuration.

I recently added a second S2 and enabled multi-room viewing. With my 802.11b network performance was awful - 4-5 hrs to transfer a 1 hr show. I upgraded to the exact config that you described and the the difference was huge. We usually record in High quality, and these transfer in faster than real-viewing time.

Certainly not a cheap solution, but if wired ethernet is not an option, this is as good as it gets.

josetann

07-25-2004, 02:13 PM

I've got a cheaper solution. $5 for a drill-bit at wal-mart, already have the drill. Also already have the cable. Drill one hole behind the entertainment center (no one'll see that), then another in the closet in our bedroom (will only see a couple inches of cable as it comes out and behind the entertainment center in the bedroom).

Since we're talking wireless though, I do have a bridge using two Netgear HE102's. It connects my shop to my house (only about 60 feet apart). I have it set to 6mb/s, but it'll go up to 54mb/s. Now I can run JavaHMO on my main desktop, and if/when I get a TiVo down here it can stream with the ones up at the house.

I would have run wire for that too, but I'd have to get the right grade, get conduit, bury it, etc...not worth it at all.

GWJ

07-26-2004, 10:40 AM

The comments on this thread imply the SSIDs of the router / bridges need to be the same - not sure I can do that since I have the following:

Home Router - SSID 'MyNetwork'

3 x Airport Express each with SSID identifying which room they are in - currently using the audio out for streaming music. iTunes uses the SSID I believe to allow you to switch from one to the other.

I was hoping to hang two Tivos off the ethernet port of the two different airport expresses (using two usb to ethernet adapters) to set up a HMO network

Any chance I can get this to work?

Cheers in advance,:

confused:

JasonD

08-09-2004, 02:24 PM

Could you use an access point Linksys wap54g instead of the game adapter WGA54G. it would be cheaper?

jason

JuryDuty

08-16-2004, 02:04 AM

Well, after a bit of thought, I decided to spring for this configuration and see how it worked for me. After I receive it and set it up, I'll let you know how it works. I'm in a two-story house with one TiVo upstairs, one down, and the computer on the other side of the house from both.

I found the router and game adapters cheapest at Amazon. Plus there are rebates and a $20 Amazon Gift Certificate offered right now on top of the best prices.

The USB adapters were cheapest at Buy.com by $1.50 or so, so I got those there.

Total cost was about $290. I can sell my current system for about $150 on ebay, so this was a $140 investment for me in all.

JuryDuty

08-20-2004, 02:05 AM

Well, I finally got everything and hooked it up. The transfer is faster, but not much. I'm not getting a very great signal (about 50%). Here's what I've got going:

Tivo1 and 2: Each has a USB200M -> WGA54G Game Adapter, each one is about 75 feet from the router, one upstairs, one down.
Computer -> WGT54G Router

I'm on channel 10, both game adapters set to get their IPs automatically. 64-bit encryption. I've tried all channels, with and w/o encryption and with static IP addresses.

What do you think the problem is?
Transferring a show on the lowest quality takes about 1 hour to transfer a half hour show. That's faster than I got before, but I figured I should EASILY be able to do this in real-time given the fact that YOU can do high quality in real time.

Help! Any suggestions would be appreciated!

ashu

08-20-2004, 12:51 PM

While this is a 'currently practical' solution, I would also pester the TiVo Gods to officiall support USB Wireless G devices, and/or upgrade the USB drivers to true 2.0.

For me, the added cost of moving my network to G is not worth it (yet), expecially since even with my antenna-less DLINK DWL122 (only $10 to 20 after rebate) I can transfer Medium Quality faster than realtime between my TiVos - 2 wired, 1 wireless.

JuryDuty

08-21-2004, 12:32 PM

Well, I FINALLY got this network to work for me, though not at the speeds described here. I've got a high-gain antenna on order...will be interesting to see if that helps.

Incidentally, after HOURS of going back and forth with this network, I finally got it to work, but not exactly as described here.

For me, I kept DHCP running, and set my game adapters to obtain IP addresses automatically. Then, I had to go in and set each of my Tivo's up, specifying a unique IP address (i.e. 192.168.1.146), subset mask (255.255.255.0), gateway/router address (192.168.1.1) and DNS (from my provider). Then, suddenly, it worked. That's a bit different from what others have done, but it worked for me! :)

ashu

08-23-2004, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by JuryDuty
, I had to go in and set each of my Tivo's up, specifying a unique IP address (i.e. 192.168.1.146), subset mask (255.255.255.0), gateway/router address (192.168.1.1) and DNS (from my provider). Then, suddenly, it worked. That's a bit different from what others have done, but it worked for me! :)

That's odd! I had to do that ages ago when my outgoing connection was dialup. Setting the router's IP as the DNS on all the PCs/TiVos would NEVER work and I had to use the ISP-provided DNS.

But I had (Win 2K internet/ethernet) connection sharing running too - on the PC with the dialup modem, and I suspected that forced this necessity. Who knows! Are all your wireless devices the same brand and loaded up with the (con)current firmware?

JuryDuty

08-23-2004, 02:55 PM

Yes, all current. The router's IP isn't my DNS though--I used the DNS provided from my provider. The routers IP is my gateway.

JuryDuty

08-25-2004, 04:07 PM

Hey, it finally works great for me--I'm getting transfers as fast as I can watch them. A 30-minute show takes about 20 minutes. I can watch as it goes. Very cool!

In addition to the setup mentioned in this thread, it made ALL the difference for me to buy the Linksys Antenna Stand for TNC Connectors - AS2TNC. It's $22 at Buy.com and allows you to put your router's antennas up to 6 feet away from the router. I have mine up on my wall and it has increased my reception greatly. The stand is really intended for using with the $40 high-gain antenna pack they also sell, but you can also use it with your current antennas. Highly recommended.

JuryDuty

08-25-2004, 06:14 PM

So, in summary, for anyone who's reading this thread for the first time, here's what I bought along with what I did to get it working for me.

Here are the best prices I found, including shipping:

Linksys WRT54G Wireless Router ($61 - $10 rebate at Amazon.com)
Linksys WGA54G Game Adapter x2 ($76 each at Amazon.com)
Linksys USB200M Adapters x2 ($25 each at Buy.com)
Linksys AS2TNC Antenna Stand ($22 at Buy.com)
I also have this on order, though I haven't used it yet: Linksys High Gain Antenna ($40 at Buy.com)

Note that I chose free standard shipping for all these items, and still received them within 48 hours from both Amazon and Buy.com. I live in Texas.

Step 1: I plugged in my router, removing the antennas and plugging them into the antenna stand. I mounted my antenna stand about 6 feet up in the air. Then I set my router to get its IP address automatically. I used mixed mode. I also used WEP with a hexidecimal code.

Step 2: By ethernet cable, I connected each game adapter to my PC. After inital set-up by CD, I logged into the adapter via my browser (according to the instructions) and told it to get the IP address automatically. I used Mixed mode. I also used WEP with a hexidecimal code. After unplugging the adapters for a minute, I verified that I could surf the net wirelessly on my laptop through the game adapters with these settings.

Step 3: I plugged the USB adapters into each Tivo. I plugged the game adapters into the USB adapters. I rebooted the Tivos. In the Tivo settings area, I assigned a unique IP address to each Tivo (i.e. 192.168.1.146 and 192.168.1.147), the same subset mask (255.255.255.0), the same gateway/router address (192.168.1.1) and the same DNS (which came from my provider--you can find yours in the status area of your router).

Step 4: I tried to make the default call. One worked right away, the other worked the next morning, after I let it sit overnight. Anyway, then I was able to transfer shows in real-time wirelessly!

Hope this helps someone--post here if it helps you!

Bmaur34

09-12-2004, 06:51 PM

I too was tired of the slow transfer time with my wireless b network so when I came across vlxjim suggestion I had to try it....although it wasn't cheap it works great!!!

One question for vlxjim are you able to set the WEP without locking out the game controller? Since Tivo doesn't think it's on a wireless connection you can't set the password. Any solutions?

Bob

JuryDuty

09-12-2004, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Bmaur34
One question for vlxjim are you able to set the WEP without locking out the game controller? Since Tivo doesn't think it's on a wireless connection you can't set the password. Any solutions?

Bob

Yep--you just set up the WEP in the game adaptes (it's the second tab over when you're setting them up).

Bmaur34

09-12-2004, 10:23 PM

I never setup my game adapters. Just plugged them in and they worked. So if I understand correct to setup WEP I need to plug each game adapter into a PC and run the setup, assign the password and then plug them back into the Tivo's?

JuryDuty

09-12-2004, 10:44 PM

You got it!

denver

09-19-2004, 08:18 PM

Have this setup running and it works great at transferring programs. I think the design is solid (thanks, vlxjim!!).

My problem is with the Linksys adapters - the one most remote from my router disconnects frequently (daily) and has to be reset to work again.

I've read the posts about antennas, and may give that a try. I've also read a large amount of fairly negative stuff on Amazon about the WGA54G.

My question is, can I use any one of a number of units sold as "Ethernet bridges" or WAPs? They all seem to do the same thing - link a wireless G network to an ethernet connection. Am I missing something?

If I can use a bridge/WAP, does anyone have a suggestion for a good troube free unit with GOOD range??

Many thanks for any help!!!

alershka

09-20-2004, 05:08 PM

I am interested in doing this on my network. My only question is this: can the Game Adapter be hooked up to a switch?

My current "B" network, uses the USB adapter hooked up to my one Tivo and the WET11 wireless bridge hooked up to a wired switch. The switch is hooked up to my Tivo via wired USB, my Xbox and my PS2. The show stopper for me is replacing the WET11 for something less than the $170 for the Linksys G bridge.

Right now it takes me about 1:15 minutes to move 30 minutes of high quality video.

Jeff

Originally posted by vlxjim
Just to let you folks know you can get real time transfers in best quality. I just setup two TiVo 2 80Hr with two of the Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapters, each hooked to a Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter (works just like the WET54G Wireless-G Ethernet Bridge but cost less and in a different case for the gaming market). Routed by a Linksys WRT54G Wireless-G Broadband Router. The high gain antenna on the WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter get a much better signal than the WUSB11. I get 100% on singal and link with this setup with both TiVo's 75+ feet from the router (one up stairs one down stairs). I now have a 54G network the TiVo's USB port is now the bottle neck. I can now watch in real time the transfer of best quality video. Watching a two hour movie in best quality is no problem. And the Med. quality transfers are three to four time as fast.

I hope this helps some of you out.

Jim :)

jc-nh

09-20-2004, 06:37 PM

If your primary router is a WRT54G or WRT54GS you can just buy another one of those and it's a lot cheaper than either a bridge or the game adapter.

You would tie the 2 routers together wirelessly with WDS. In order to use that feature you would need to download and install 3rd party firmware to the routers. I use Sveasoft firmware myself. I'd post a link but the boards don't allow me to post URL's with my lost post count. :confused:

I just purchased my 2 Tivo's last week and now have them both setup wirelessly using a USB200M ethernet adapter and WRT54G at each Tivo. :D

Bmaur34

09-27-2004, 07:45 PM

I am having the same issue as denver. My game adapter farthest from the access point needs to be reset daily. Does anyone have any fixes for this?

Otherwise it works great!

denver

09-27-2004, 08:19 PM

I was able to relocate my router to a better spot in between the two game adapters. In my case, I moved the router and DSL modem to another phone jack in a better location. I did need to get an adapter to connect my PC to the network as it was no longer connected directly to the router. The game adapters seem to be much more sensitive to a weak signal than the PC adapters, etc. That this fix works confirms for me that the problem was signal strength, as I had suspected.

With this change its been up and running for about a week without the need for any resets.

jruben4

09-29-2004, 07:41 AM

Would it be possible to have a single Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter for two or more devices if you had a switch on the game adapter side? You'd probably have to assign subnet IPs to those devices, but it would be cheaper than a game adapter for each device...

-J

ashu

09-29-2004, 10:21 AM

I used to do (almost) just tha - I used a D-Link 802.11B device - the 900+ I believe - which supported AP, Bridging, Client, Repeater and other modes. I set it to client mode, and put a switch behind it with PCs, game machines, TiVos galore on the other side, and DHCP enabled (or sensibly picked static IPs). Not a single problem.

Also, having two TiVos on that same switch would presumably route MRV traffic between those two TiVos directly (wired etherneT!) through that switchm instead of back up the wireless pipeline (gam adapter or D-Link 800/810 or 900 type adapter) to the router and back down again!

jruben4

09-29-2004, 10:41 AM

What would be the cheapest G device for this function? I think all I would need would be the bridging + routing functions, right? I think the going-out-of-business microsoft routers could do bridging, and they were going pretty cheap if they are still available.

-J

ashu

09-29-2004, 11:11 AM

No, you would need the 'Client' function.

The B version (from D-Link) of the device i own is ... the DWL-900AP+, which oddly enough sems to have been pulled from all references and links!

It is referenced on the antenna page
http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=57
It runs in Client mode, Range Extender/Repeater mode, Access Point mode, and one more!

Bridging mode ONLY works with a LIMITED SUBSET of other D-Link devices.

However, the DWl-G810 should do the trick for you.

I would jump onto other forums such as those on broadbandreports.com to ensure it will work.

Its a pity D-Link doesn't carry a G version of the 900AP+, it performs a superset of the functions of the 800/810 type devices (which, I understand, will suffice for you in client mode)

<edit> Here ya go - the tech support page for the 900PA+ exists ...
http://support.dlink.com/products/view.asp?productid=DWL%2D900AP%2B

Hmm - maybe I have it working in Point-to-Multipoint Bridge mode, but I doubt it. In client mode, IT gets a DHCP ID from the router it links to, and it then (the wire) hits the WAN input port of another router (my personal subnet), providing it ANOTHER DHCP IP from the router it is (wirelessly)
connected to. That router then has a WAN connection, and serves its own subnet, but previously I have connected the 900AP+ to a switch and had 1-2 PCs, a game console (borrowed PS2) and one TiVo behind it, working great with my D-Link router being the wireless AP for the subnet and handing out multiple DHCP IPs to eahc of the devices connected to the switch. You may need modifications of your Gateway IP to be the IP assigned (or statically set) for the Bridge-like device running in client mode (192.168.0.50 for the 900AP+, or .30 for the 800 or 810)

<ANOTHER edit>
Newegg has this as well as the (802.11B based) 900AP+ in stock. But its pricy! I paid around 50 after rebate for the 900AP+. But considering the G810 should save you bunches of money by limiting the total number of wireless devices you buy (since you can hook it into a switch), the 93.99 (incl. shipping) is a steal :)

Search on froogle.google.com as well, for other prices.

jruben4

09-29-2004, 11:39 AM

I would think bridging function is what we would need. Then the bridging AP would get a single IP from the base AP on the root subnet (192.168.0) and the bridge router would give out IPs to the TiVo's on a differnt subnet (192.168.1.x)... And I think there are cheap G AP's out there that do bridging... is this right?

-J

ashu

09-29-2004, 12:38 PM

Umm, these modes are EXCLUSIVE. So a bridging mode device (at least one of the D-Links) will no longer do AP functions like giving out IPs etc etc.

But in client mode, you can do one of 2 things ...
a. It forwards DHCP requests from devices connected to the same switch to the 'main' router and returns a DHCP IP
b. The other devices can be assigned static IPs in the same subnet, with the static or DHCP IP of the Client-mode device (800/810/900) as one of the DNS servers and as the gateway. That definitely works too.

creighton1

10-11-2004, 03:30 PM

After reading this thread I was determined to get my TIVO's working on an 802.11g network (albeit limited by the 12Mbps transfer rate of USB 1.1). After considering the Linksys Game Adapters, I settled upon using additional Linksys WRT54G router/access points instead (biggest consideration was the cost, I was able to pick up the WRT54G's for about $50 each). After upgrading to the latest SVEASOFT firmware on each I set up the WRT54G's for WDS (wireless distribution system). Using USB200M adapters, I plugged each TIVO into a WRT54G and it all worked beautifully. I now have three WRT54G's: 1) Connected to the cable modem acting as the Gateway and DHCP server; 2) connected in bedroom to TIVO Series 2; and 3) Connected in Living Room to Tivo Series 2. Not only is each of the WRT54G's capable of accepting 3 more wired clients, each also acts as an access point and allows wireless connections. In addition to now being able to transfer Highest Quality recordings in real time, I also have the added benefit of rock solid wireless coverage in every corner of my home. I think it would have been possible to set this up using additional WRT54G's in client mode instead of WDS (essentially they would be bridges), but I would have lost their access point functionality of each.

I must admit, it was a bit tricky, and frustrating trying to get everything set up, but well worth the effort IMO.

ashu

10-11-2004, 04:27 PM

Fascinating - so you managed to get free clients with bonus (wireless signal) repeater mode (just by setting each up to work in 'WDS' mode!). I must look into this. I realized Linksys was fast outpacing the competition thanks to opening up the driver/firmware etc, but didn't realize the extent of the leaps and bounds it had taken :)

Perhaps there will be no more 'cheap' D-Link hardware in my future!

jc-nh

10-11-2004, 11:28 PM

I did the same exact thing here... Works great! :D

Jeff

joshag

10-12-2004, 08:46 PM

Has anyone had any luck using products (802.11g) other than Linksys?

NotVeryWitty

10-13-2004, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by creighton1
After reading this thread I was determined to get my TIVO's working on an 802.11g network (albeit limited by the 12Mbps transfer rate of USB 1.1). After considering the Linksys Game Adapters, I settled upon using additional Linksys WRT54G router/access points instead (biggest consideration was the cost, I was able to pick up the WRT54G's for about $50 each). After upgrading to the latest SVEASOFT firmware on each I set up the WRT54G's for WDS (wireless distribution system). Using USB200M adapters, I plugged each TIVO into a WRT54G and it all worked beautifully. I now have three WRT54G's: 1) Connected to the cable modem acting as the Gateway and DHCP server; 2) connected in bedroom to TIVO Series 2; and 3) Connected in Living Room to Tivo Series 2. Not only is each of the WRT54G's capable of accepting 3 more wired clients, each also acts as an access point and allows wireless connections. In addition to now being able to transfer Highest Quality recordings in real time, I also have the added benefit of rock solid wireless coverage in every corner of my home. I think it would have been possible to set this up using additional WRT54G's in client mode instead of WDS (essentially they would be bridges), but I would have lost their access point functionality of each.

I must admit, it was a bit tricky, and frustrating trying to get everything set up, but well worth the effort IMO.

One question with this setup: can you use WPA encryption with this setup? It was my understanding that due to the way WDS was implemented, it was inherently incompatible with WPA. Because of the security holes in WEP, and a neighbor who I don't trust, I need to use WPA for my network.

jc-nh

10-13-2004, 02:06 PM

WPA over WDS works in the latest pre-release Alchemy version of the Sveasoft firmware. You need to donate ($20 I think) in order to access anything more recent than the Satori version they offer for free.

creighton1

10-13-2004, 07:37 PM

Though I don't use WPA encryption, from reading the forum posts at sveasoft.com it appears there has been succes with using it and WDS with firmware version Alchemy-pre5.4a.

NotVeryWitty

10-14-2004, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by creighton1
Though I don't use WPA encryption, from reading the forum posts at sveasoft.com it appears there has been succes with using it and WDS with firmware version Alchemy-pre5.4a.

Okay, this is very interesting news. :) My first Tivo is connected to my WRT54G router with a wired connection, but I'm still going through dial-up for my second Tivo, because I don't want to run CAT-5 cabling to my bedroom, and Tivo *still* doesn't support any of the 802.11g adapters. :mad:

If you don't mind, I have a few more questions about your setup...

Can your WRT54G (with the Alchemy firmware) that's connected to the cable modem act as a standard wired router *plus* as an 802.11g access point *plus* as a WDS bridge?

You say that the WRT54G's connected to the Tivos (through the USB200M's) can also act as access points. I'm curious how that works. Does each WRT54G have a different SSID?

How stable is the sveasoft firmware? I'm not an expert in wireless, and I don't want to spend a lot of time fiddling with settings to make things work.

Any other "gotcha's" we may want to consider?

Thanks in advance.

ashu

10-14-2004, 10:18 AM

Excellent questions - I'd love to know the answers too!

It would indeed be excellently awesome if each WRT54G serves the same subnet & SSID, and essentially functions as a 'repeater'.

Also, how is DHCP handled in this case? Or isn't it? (only one DHCP servre allowed in an IP range, right? Satic IPs?)

jc-nh

10-14-2004, 11:53 AM

The latest *official* stable version of sveasoft firmware is called Satori and is available for free. This version supports WDS and everything you'd want to do except WPA over WDS.

The newest version of sveasoft is called Alchemy and is still in beta and there are various pre-release versions out but in order to get those versions you need to donate $20. I have found that for what I need to do on my home network these have been stable.

To answer your questions about WDS:

- SSID is same on all routers
- routers are all on the same subnet (each device is assigned static IP)
- DHCP is enabled on one router and disabled on the others
- each router acts as a wired/wireless AP as well as the WDS connection to the other router(s)
- if you have other wireless clients attached to an AP running WDS there will be a performace hit since the WRT54G/GS only has 1 radio

Here is a HOW-TO that someone created for Satori to give you a general idea of how to set it up. This guide says to use client mode on the 2nd router but you should leave it at AP if you want other wireless clients to be able to use it.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/linksysinfo/WDS_WRT54GS_SETUP_GUIDE.pdf

Here is a post by someone who setup WPA over WDS on an Alchemy Pre-Release:

http://www.sveasoft.com/modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5677

-----

Here is my quick How-To for setting up WDS with pre5.3 using Wolf's stable w30 build. Hope this helps, I found it very quick and easy to setup WDS with WPA-PSK. Although WDS introduces various wireless headaches because of AP+bridge operation, I prefer the network bridging of "lan-mode WDS" versus the routing headaches of "routed Client mode" introduced in Alchemy firmware series.

Step 0: My Assumptions
- these are dedicated bridges + APs (not using router features)
- local network = 192.168.1.0 (subnet = 255.255.255.0)
- network has separate DHCP, DNS and NTP servers (all @ 192.168.1.2)
- network has separate Internet router @ 192.168.1.1
- tested with wrt54gs units

Potential network problems are often related to fact that WDS mode provides both bridging and AP modes of operation ("AP+bridge"). Therefore a wireless client can connect to either end of the bridge. If using Wireless-->MAC Filter settings then do it on both WRT units otherwise if WRT units are close the "blacklisted" client will still connect to your network.

Step 1: Preparation
1.1 Prevent simple mistakes. Put tape over Internet port because these units provide dedicated bridge+AP service on the network (separate router). The Internet port is not used.

1.2. Upgrade firmware to Wolf's pre5.3_w30. Connect LAN port of WRT1 to a single PC and install pre5.3_w30. After reboot login to WRT1 and go to Administration-->Factory Defaults and toggle Restore Factory Defaults = Yes and then Save Settings.

Perform same upgrade and reset to factory defaults on WRT2.

During this step you may want to write down Wireless MAC address from Status-->Wireless page.

Now clear your browser cache (Internet Explorer or Firefox)

1.3. Determine MAC and IP addresses. Configuring WDS will require knowing the wireless MAC address of each WRT. If you can count in hex then add 2 to LAN mac address from preprinted label on bottom of unit. Otherwise boot up the router and check Status-->Wireless page.

Also note I've assigned a static IP to each WRT. The Local IP Address must be different on each WRT and recall that default address is 192.168.1.1.

WRT1 (Example used in how-to)
Preprinted Label = 00:0f:66:11:11:01 (LAN MAC address)
Internet MAC = 00:0f:66:11:11:02
Wireless MAC = 00:0f:66:11:11:03
Local IP Address = 192.168.1.11 (I picked this static IP address)

WRT2 (Example used in how-to)
Preprinted Label = 00:0f:66:22:22:0a (LAN MAC address)
Internet MAC = 00:0f:66:22:22:0b
Wireless MAC = 00:0f:66:22:22:0c
Local IP Address = 192.168.1.12 (I picked this static IP address)

1.4. Additional label. Put blank address label on bottom of each router and write down the following:

On WRT1 blank label write down the following:
Local IP address = 192.168.1.11
Partner wireless MAC = 00:0f:66:22:22:0c

On WRT2 blank label write down the following:
Local IP address = 192.168.1.12
Partner wireless MAC = 00:0f:66:11:11:03

This will make your life easy during the inevitable firmware upgrades that happen over the next year or two.

Step 2: Administration Configuration
The first config work I do involves the Adminstration-->Management page. Here are the changes I make from factory defaults of pre5.3_w30:

- Password (change default password)
- Loopback = disable
- NTP Client = 192.168.1.2 (not needed)
- Routing = disable
- SSH = enable

Make sure 802.1x is enabled on the Administration-->Management page.

Step 3: Setup-->Basic Setup Configuration

On WRT1
- Internet Connection Type = Disable
- Local IP Address = 192.168.1.11
- Gateway = 192.168.1.1
- Local DNS = 192.168.1.2
- DHCP Server = Disable

On WRT2
- Internet Connection Type = Disable
- Local IP Address = 192.168.1.12
- Gateway = 192.168.1.1
- Local DNS = 192.168.1.2
- DHCP Server = Disable

Make sure you only have one DHCP server on your local network. Configuring local DNS is helpful if you login via telnet or SSH. Otherwise don't bother configuring it.

Step 4: Wireless Configuration
Here are my settings on both WRT1 and WRT2, adjust to your liking:

- Wireless Mode = AP
- Wireless Network Mode = Mixed
- Wireless Network Name (SSID) = wds_test_ssid
- Wireless Channel = 6
- Wireless SSID Broadcast = Enable

Strongly recommend you enable SSID broadcast. To use WPA-PSK authentication you must have same SSID in WRT1 and WRT2.

Step 5: Wireless-->Security Configuration
Again, you need the same settings on WRT1 and WRT2:

- Security Mode: WPA-Pre-Shared Key
- WPA Algorithms: TKIP
- WPA Shared Key: testkey
- Group Key Renewal: 3600

Note: The real Pre-Shared Key should have 25 or more random characters to reduce the possibility of a brute force attack.

Step 6: Wireless-->WDS Configuration
Configure the WDS partner info on this page.

On WRT1
LAN 00:0f:66:22:22:0c wrt2_mac

On WRT2
LAN 00:0f:66:11:11:03 wrt1_mac

Step 7: Verify wireless bridge is working
- Ping wrt1 from LAN side of wrt2. Then ping wrt2 from LAN side of wrt1. Then try pinging hosts across the bridge.

- Login to WRT1 and WRT2 webpages. Go to Status-->Wireless and verify you have a non-zero RSSI listed under WDS Signal.

-----

I assume no responsibility if something goes wrong. :p

Good luck! :)

Jeff

ashu

10-14-2004, 12:10 PM

Whoa! This board needs a 'karma' functionality :)

Thanks!

creighton1

10-14-2004, 12:48 PM

But for the fact I do not use WPA, my setup is nearly identical to jc's. SSID is the same for each of the WRT54G's used in the WDS configuration and all are on the same subnet. Nice thing is that once you have established a wireless client connection with one of the access points, that connection will be seemlessly handed betwee the access points in the WDS configuration depending upon which has the strongest signal at the time. As far as stability is concerned, I am using pre-release version 5.3 of SVEASOFT's Alchemy firmware and it has been running without a hickup for about six days. Not long term I know, but so far so good.

NotVeryWitty

10-14-2004, 01:35 PM

jc-nh and creighton1:

Thank you so much for all the helpful information!!!!! :up: :up: :up:

rdgoldbecker

10-15-2004, 03:24 PM

I purchased the setup you recommended and installed the router with no problems. I was just wondering if there are any special tips or tricks when configuring the gaming adapters. Is it just a plug and play situation? or Do I have to configure the gaming adapters using my PC first before connecting them to the USB200M at the TiVo unit? Thanks for sharing this info. It may cost a little more than purchasing the WUSB11 or 12 adapters, but like you said, when USB 2.0 drivers are written your ready to go, plus the current transfer speed is quite good. Thanks again.

jbd1962

10-21-2004, 02:54 PM

1 tivo 140, 1 tivo 80, 1 wrt54g router, 2 usb200m, 2 wrg54g. transfering high quality 125% real time, extremely pleased. now i want 2 more dvrs! only had one glitch in setup and it was my own fault for not reading all the posts, configured game adapters on laptop, when i connected them to tivo, it says no wireless network found, (i now know that tivo does not "see a network") spent 2 hours configuring and reconfiguring before i figured it out. otherwise it was a fairly easy and would have been quick "network" to setup. the tivos are about 50 feet apart on same floor. it seems to me from the posts of those who were disapointed in this setup, that maybe distance and lack of signal strength are the problem with the lack of significant gain in speed (it was taking 2 - 3 hours for me to transfer 1 hour of recording time). just my 2 cents worth. any way thanks again for a great idea.

saturnx8

10-29-2004, 04:14 PM

thanks for posting that snazzy piece on configuring 2 wrt54g routers. I got it up and running with no problem at all. I look forward to adding 2 more to the network to see how they do. But right now I am in happyland. Too bad TiVo doesn't support g adaptors yet, but you know, with this solution I am not really all that worried about it anyhow.

kennyk2104

11-04-2004, 12:39 AM

when using mrv, are you watching the show off of the other tivo, or transfering it to the tivo of viewing pleasure, in return using space on this tivo?

ashu

11-04-2004, 10:00 AM

The latter. So you get an identical copy on each TiVo.

You have to manually go to the source TiVo and delete the show, unless it gets deleted by the deletion algorithms and ISN'T marked Keep Until I Delete (KUID)

bnm81002

11-13-2004, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by vlxjim
Just to let you folks know you can get real time transfers in best quality. I just setup two TiVo 2 80Hr with two of the Linksys USB200M USB 2.0 10/100 Network Adapters, each hooked to a Linksys WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter (works just like the WET54G Wireless-G Ethernet Bridge but cost less and in a different case for the gaming market). Routed by a Linksys WRT54G Wireless-G Broadband Router. The high gain antenna on the WGA54G Wireless-G Game Adapter get a much better signal than the WUSB11. I get 100% on singal and link with this setup with both TiVo's 75+ feet from the router (one up stairs one down stairs). I now have a 54G network the TiVo's USB port is now the bottle neck. I can now watch in real time the transfer of best quality video. Watching a two hour movie in best quality is no problem. And the Med. quality transfers are three to four time as fast.

I hope this helps some of you out.

Jim :)

I have the Linksys wired router BEFSR81, can I use the WGA54G along with a USB200M, will that work for my Pioneer DVR810H? thanks

RonEMc

11-14-2004, 09:36 PM

First time posting. I've read this entire thread and am hoping I've missed something and someone can help.

I have a Linksys BEFW11S4 wireless router hooked up to my computer and cable modem. I have two TIVOs - one downstairs and one upstairs - networked with Linksys WUSB11 wireless USB adapters. I have excellent signal strength on both TIVOs and the Home Medio Option is working fine for MP3s and pictures on both units. The multi-room viewing feature is not. I am transferring a 30 minute show in best quality and it's been 1.5 hours so far. It's almost done, but YIKES!!!

Without scraping my wireless B network and going with the configuration jc-nh described, is there anything anyone has done with their wireless B to get better transfer times? I wouldn't mind going G, but I don't have that much need for MRV, but want the option just in case. And, with G not yet supported, I'd like to wait until them.

Any help is much appreciated.

Ron

swingline

11-22-2004, 04:30 PM

I have a Mac version of vlxjim's setup, using an Airport Extreme as the main base station and an Airport Express in a WDS config w/ the Extreme. This config turns the Express' WAN port into a LAN which is hardwired to the TiVo via a 200M. I used to have a D-link 802.11b connected directly to the Tivo and I can tell you that playing my iTunes songs w/ HMO was a stuttery mess. Since I changed to the above config, I get flawless playback of my music and photos. So it's definitely faster, and IMO, worth the cost.

dB02

11-22-2004, 07:46 PM

Would it be worth upgrading to G for streaming media back n forth? Or is it not gonna work?

Brergo

11-25-2004, 08:25 PM

I have been reading this thread and others and have one question...can I use and 802.11g USB adapter on my TiVo and an 802.11g router on the other end? I know TiVo doesn't currently support 802.11g, but wouldn't both devices just drop back to the 802.11b standard?

If that won't work, how about having an 802.11b USB adapter on my TiVo and an 802.11g router at the other end?

joewatch

12-03-2004, 06:15 PM

I'm interested in setting up my Tivo series 1 in a 802.11g network. Instead of the Linksys WGA54G, which is currently selling for 99.95, I'm thinking of using the ASUS WL-330G which can function as a bridge, WAP or wireless adapter. The price is much better $57.99 at newegg, it has greater functionality, and it's smaller. Has anyone tried this? Any caveats?
The WL-330G in wireless adapter mode can be set-up easily using the web-based interface.

ashu

12-06-2004, 01:29 PM

In a nutsehll (per my post above) (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=2255872#post2255872) - yes.

You can even hook up the bridge (in client mode) to a switch, to which you can then connect multiple devices (Playstation, additional TiVos, Media Computer etc) and save on buying multiple wireless devices :)

hxmiller

12-07-2004, 11:25 PM

Has anyone been successful using the Dlink DUB-E100 USB 2.0 adapter and connect it to a 802.11g gaming adapter. After rebate the D=link gaming adapter is around $60.

Tivo ---> DUB-E100 ---> DWL-820 ~~~~ AP ---> Network

Should I configure the Tivo as if it were on a wired network and the gaming adapter as a bridge each gets its own IP address in the subnet?

bkdelong

12-13-2004, 01:33 PM

Hrm. Has anyone taken this network topology and diagramed it in MS Visio? And made an image of said diagram? Trying to wrap my head around it.

eibgrad

12-13-2004, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by bkdelong
Hrm. Has anyone taken this network topology and diagramed it in MS Visio? And made an image of said diagram? Trying to wrap my head around it.

No, no visio diagram here, but, it's not as complicated as it may seem. Don't get hung up on the "gaming adapter" either. Fact it, ANY wireless AP will provide a similar solution. These guys keep mentioning the gaming adapter because it tends to be cheaper than a pure AP. But there are much cheaper options these days than even these gaming adapters, some darn near FREE.

For example, I purchased some cheap Belkin F5D7230-4 "G" routers (<$10) and converted one of them to an AP (it supports WDS, or wireless bridging, not all vendors do, D-Link typically doesn't). All you do is install a USB ethernet adapter on your Tivo (I used the D-Link USB 2.0 DUB-E100), then patch one of the routers to it via ethernet, and finally configure that router for AP mode only. You go back to the other router (the one attached to your broadband and providing DHCP, NAT, firewall, etc.) and tell it to allow wireless access by the other AP (based on MAC address), and whalla, your Tivo is communicating over wireless "G" (albeit your Tivo thinks its connected as wired). This avoids lots of wireless configuration issues w/ your Tivo as well, you simply configure it for wired access (in most cases, nothing more than tell it to use DHCP). All the wireless configuration is confined to the AP itself, and router.

Total investment? Got BOTH routers for FREE (after rebate). Truth be told, the stupid ethernet adapter is what actually ran the cost up, about $23 (w/ tax) @ Fry's.

In truth, a very simple and clean solution. Avoids all those issues of wireless adapter compatibility that Tivo stupidly introduced by requiring customers to use SPECIFIC wireless adapters and drivers. Incredibly dumb decision for an otherwise ingenious device. Only problem now is, the lack of an ethernet port limits everyone to USB 1.1 performance (12mbps), ugh, since that's the ONLY means to network the Tivo. Yet another brilliant decision by Tivo engineers. So now w/ HMO and the up-coming Tivo2Go, we're all needlessly stuck at the 12mbps speed limit, when in fact ALL this could have been avoided by simply having installed a 10 cent ethernet port.

Anyway, maybe this post has cleared up *some* of the fog.

eibgrad

bkdelong

12-14-2004, 08:38 AM

It has, thanks. I don't have a lot of money to spend at the moment but transferring files between Tivos at 11MBs is killing me.

ashu

12-14-2004, 12:40 PM

eibgrad - brilliant! I had no idea those G routers could bridge/AP etc! Time to upgrade my aging D-link B network. Of course, when similar $10-ish deals on that Belkin return ;)

As for the USB 1.1 issue, don't Series 2 devices have USB 2.0 ports with supposedly only USB 1.1 drivers? Aren't there rumors this may be rectified ... ultimately? I would love it if that happened, especially with a fast G network running in the background (via USB-ethernet adapters)!

<edit> I knew the Linksys (with the new opensource firmwares) could bridge/repeat/AP etc, but at best they cost $50 and higher ... I can't afford 3-4 such devices! Again, that Belkin deal/suggestion rocks! As does eibgrad :)

bonifacio

12-14-2004, 04:52 PM

I have a Dell TrueMobile 2300 Wireless Broadband Router that connects to internet (supports wireless bridging). Can I use a different brand Router/AP (say the previously discussed Linksys/Belkin) ? Is this feasible at all?

Here's what I envision the setup will be...

Net <--> Cable Modem <--> Dell AP <--wb--> XXX AP <--> XXX USB ethernet adapter <--> Tivo

I hope it works because I don't want to throw out my existing Dell AP. Don't have a lot of money to burn.

Legend:
AP -- access point
wb -- wireless bridge
XXX -- Your Brand Here

eibgrad

12-14-2004, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by bonifacio
I have a Dell TrueMobile 2300 Wireless Broadband Router that connects to internet (supports wireless bridging). Can I use a different brand Router/AP (say the previously discussed Linksys/Belkin) ? Is this feasible at all?

Here's what I envision the setup will be...

I hope it works because I don't want to throw out my existing Dell AP. Don't have a lot of money to burn.

Legend:
AP -- access point
wb -- wireless bridge
XXX -- Your Brand Here

Unfortunately, you can't always mix and match APs and routers. In fact, you have to even be careful within the SAME brand. For example, you can mix Belkin F5D7230-4 (standard "G") and Belkin F5D7231-4 (newer "super G", or what Belkin calls "HSM", 125mbps), and of course, their standalone F5D7130 AP. But you can't mix in older Belkin "B" routers and APs.

So you do have to be careful and research your purchasing decisions beforehand. That's what I did, and based on the above information and dirt cheap pricing on these units, it was a no-brainer for me. Heck, you can configure ALL your wireless clients this way. PLUS, now each wireless clients (being an AP) can act as a wireless extender. You simply choose the AP that provides best range and performance, depending on your location in the house! At this point, I've been completely eliminating all my client adapters, w/ all their driver and other compatibility issues, and replacing w/ Belkin routers (as I find good deals) in AP mode. Works great.

Despite the caveats, it doesn't mean you need to throw out your current router, not if you plan appropriately. To keep the description simple and coherent, I left out a detail you may find useful.

I too already had a D-Link DI-624 router which I wished to continue using. Has lots of nice features not found on the Belkin (Belkin is a very basic router). But unfortunately, the D-Link line does NOT typically support WDS (wireless bridging). So what to do? Simple, I disabled the wireless on the DI-624, took one of the Belkin routers, converted it to an AP, and patched it to the D-624 on a LAN port! So now the Belkin and DI-624 work together. The Belkin provides wireless connectivity, BUT, the DI-624 still provides everything else, including DHCP, NAT, firewall, etc. All the Belkin AP is doing is dumping wireless clients (like the Tivo w/ its own AP) on to the DI-624 for the various services.

So now I have the best of both worlds. All the cool features of the D-Link DI-624, PLUS, the wireless connectivity features (i.e., WDS) of the Belkin.

So if you're a little creative, you can usually work around some of the limitations. I should also add that using APs introduces other "issues" you should be aware of. For example, on my Belkin routers, if you purchase the higher end F5D7231-4 (w/ HSM) and only use it as an AP, you're simply wasting money. When the F5D7231-4 is configured in AP mode, it drops back to standard "G"! Also, I was not able to get WPA, nor disable the SSID, while running these in AP mode. Whether these latter two issues are by design or a bug, I don't know. But I didn't consider them deal breakers in my case, esp. at the pricepoint of FREE. Also, it's not like the alternatives provided by Tivo (e.g., Netgear MA111) aren't fraught w/ their own problems/limitations. I just don't want to leave the impression that my solutions is PERFECT, no solution is. But all things considered, I'm quite pleased w/ the results.

As routers, the Belkins are pretty mediocre (OK, but not great), but the fact you can get them so cheap and convert to APs is what's so tantilizing. Heck, you can't buy the client adapters as cheap as these routers, and they're not even compatible w/ Tivo anyway. You can use this very same approach w/ ANY type of bridge, not just wireless. Phoneline, powerline, ANY technology that comes down the pike will work similarly, as long as it provides bridging support to ethernet. It's just that the Belkins have proven exceptional values right now.

eibgrad

eibgrad

12-14-2004, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by ashutoshsm
eibgrad - brilliant! I had no idea those G routers could bridge/AP etc! Time to upgrade my aging D-link B network. Of course, when similar $10-ish deals on that Belkin return ;)

As for the USB 1.1 issue, don't Series 2 devices have USB 2.0 ports with supposedly only USB 1.1 drivers? Aren't there rumors this may be rectified ... ultimately? I would love it if that happened, especially with a fast G network running in the background (via USB-ethernet adapters)!

<edit> I knew the Linksys (with the new opensource firmwares) could bridge/repeat/AP etc, but at best they cost $50 and higher ... I can't afford 3-4 such devices! Again, that Belkin deal/suggestion rocks! As does eibgrad :)

I'm not ready to declare all Series2 Tivo's USB 2.0 ready. Unfortunately, many vendors don't mention it specifically. I have a Toshiba SD-H400, which is a rare exception, it *does* mention USB 2.0 support in the spec. But I suspect it's still using USB 1.1 drivers. I recently picked up a Humax DRT800, and although Series2 as well, their spec makes no mention of USB 2.0, merely says "two USB ports". Call me a cynic, but when a company doesn't mention a feature specifically, it probably means it's NOT there. Few companies miss the opportunity to hype their products. So maybe my Humax has USB 2.0, maybe not, I'm hoping someone can tell me.

We should be clear about something else here as well. To be precise, it's not the "ports" that are at issue, it's the chipsets. Each Tivo comes w/ a USB chipset that determines the maximum performance, either USB 1.1 (12mbps) or USB 2.0 (480mbps). The ONLY sure way to determine whether your Tivo supports USB 2.0 is to crack it open and find the USB chipset on the motherboard. Then research that chipset and determine if its USB 2.0 compatible. If not, no USB 2.0 driver update is going to matter, you'll be stuck w/ USB 1.1 performance, permanently. Again, it's not the ports, but the chipset.

That's why I'm concerned when I purchase a Tivo if it does already have USB 2.0 *chipsets* on the motherboard. Unless the manufacturer tells you, checking the chipsets manually is your only option. So far, I've not had the chance to check my Humax (I'm keeping my fingers crossed). I bought the Humax in spite of not knowing only because I got the unit really cheap, $280 before $100 rebate!

So it's risky to assume that all Series2 are USB 2.0 capable, noone at Tivo or any other credible source has made that claim. The only real case I know of where USB 2.0 is DEFINITIVE is the Toshibas SD-H400 (and perhaps their more recent models, I didn't check). At least these models, w/ a USB 2.0 driver update, will be USB 2.0 performance, one day. Why Tivo finds it so difficult to provide the driver updates for USB 2.0 escapes me, but that's another story.

eibgrad

CrispyCritter

12-14-2004, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by eibgrad

So it's risky to assume that all Series2 are USB 2.0 capable, noone at Tivo or any other credible source has made that claim. .... Why Tivo finds it so difficult to provide the driver updates for USB 2.0 escapes me, but that's another story. Sure people at TiVo have made the claim (or close to it) you just haven't found it in your searches. Keep looking. The only Series2 without USB 2.0 capability are those models beginning with 140.

And there's been lots of articles about some of the difficulties in providing 2.0 drivers, too.

ashu

12-15-2004, 11:23 AM

What he said :)

And 140s are otherwise essentially identical (sometimes they have a larger power supply?) to 240 TiVos - except for the lack of a USB 2.0 chipset/port.

Of course - USB 2.0 drivers are what we're all waiting for!

spelldog

12-20-2004, 10:00 AM

Hi - from this thread I can gather that Tivo doesn't support the G network, only B. Howver, if I have a G router / USB adapter that can run B & G, will the Tivo support the B network or do I have to get a B only router / adapter?

eibgrad

12-21-2004, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by spelldog
Hi - from this thread I can gather that Tivo doesn't support the G network, only B. Howver, if I have a G router / USB adapter that can run B & G, will the Tivo support the B network or do I have to get a B only router / adapter?

Let's be a little more precise. Tivo only supports wireless "b" in the sense that if you opt for installation of a wireless network adapter (e.g., Netgear MA111), the Tivo software only has the appropriate drivers for those devices listed on the compatibility list. As of this moment, no wireless "G" adapters are on the compatibility list, so NO, you can't insert a wireless "G" adapter and expect it to work.

However, you can get "G" support with a different configuration. In fact, you can support nearly ANY technology, beit wireless, phoneline, powerline, 2 cups and a string, as long as the technology supports ethernet bridging. IOW, you can go out and buy a wireless "G" bridge, install a "wired" USB ethernet adapter on the Tivo (e.g., Linksys USB100M), patch it to the bridge w/ CAT5, then configure the wireless functions of the bridge so it communicates w/ your wireless router.

Tivo <-- USB 1.1 --> USB100M <-- ethernet --> Bridge <-- "G" --> Router

The reason "G" or any other bridgeable solution works is because all the driver dependencies are moved OUT of the Tivo. All the wireless configuration is confined to the bridge. In fact, Tivo doesn't even know it's ultimately running over wireless. It thinks (because it is) that it's wired. And you configure Tivo as wired, all you typically need is to enable DHCP, that's it. You do all your SSID, WEP/WPA, IP assignments (for the bridge), etc., ON THE BRIDGE!

Again, *ANY* technology can be implemented on the Tivo (or any other ethernet enabled device) in this fashion.

Tivo made a decision early on to provide support for a few specific wireless "b" client adapters, as a convenience. But it's not the best choice because it severely limits support to only those for which Tivo has committed and tested the drivers. Every other client adapter that comes to market subsequently is either not supported, or one has to wait until a future software update does support it (which may never happen).

A second problem is that the ONLY interface Tivo provides to the outside world is USB, and USB 1.1 at that, only 12mbps MAX. So even though you can use a wireless "G" bridge, realize its ultimately limited by the Tivo USB 1.1 drivers. Those of us using wireless "G" bridges and w/ Series2 Tivo's (all of which should have USB 2.0 chipsets at this point) are anxiously awaiting a release of USB 2.0 drivers to go w/ it, so we can fully utilize more of the bandwidth of this "G" equipment. Even wired clients, who should be able to get 50-60mbps (real world) w/ Tivo and 100BaseT, are fighting the same battle -- all of us have a 12mbps speed limit imposed by Tivo. Of course, had Tivo included a simple 10/100 ethernet port, not just USB, we wouldn't have this problem, but that's another story for another day (been hashed to death).

eibgrad

spelldog

12-22-2004, 09:06 AM

Thank you - I think I got it. Suffice to say, I think I may just go out and buy a Tivo compatible router / adapter and return what I have. I am basically building this network for the Tivo, in order to get my iPod music to my home theater.

eibgrad

12-22-2004, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by spelldog
Thank you - I think I got it. Suffice to say, I think I may just go out and buy a Tivo compatible router / adapter and return what I have. I am basically building this network for the Tivo, in order to get my iPod music to my home theater.

FYI, if you go the wireless bridge route, just make sure you get a USB 2.0 compatible ethernet adapter. When the USB 2.0 drivers are eventually made available by Tivo, you don't want to be STUCK at the 12mbps speed limit of a USB 1.1 ethernet adapter (like the USB100M)! Instead, locate a compatible USB 2.0 ethernet adapter (Linksys USB200M, D-Link DUB-E100, Netgear FA-120), it will provide 480mbps, thus MUCH more potential bandwidth. Won't make any difference NOW, but in a few months, you'll be glad you did.

eibgrad

spelldog

12-22-2004, 10:57 AM

I am thinking of keeping the Linksys WRT54G-BP router and picking up a DLink DL 122 USB adapter.

Is this a good solution?

ashu

12-22-2004, 01:06 PM

No - you'd be restricting the wireless component to 802.11B speeds. If you ARE returning the WET11 bridge, buy an 802.11G bridge device for ideal throughput! The USB-200M will not be the bottleneck in your system either way ... that IS good advice eibgrad.

spelldog

12-22-2004, 01:10 PM

OK-this is slightly over my head, but I am trying to get it. Just because the Tivo does not support the G adapter, does not mean I can't get G speed...is this correct?

So, I need to keep the Linksys WRT54G-BP router and pick up a:

802.11G bridge (suggestions? The linksys is $130!!!!)
Linksys USB200M

OR I can grab 2 WRT54G-BP routers and convert one to a bridge?

ashu

12-22-2004, 05:02 PM

Yes - G speeds without direct support = Title of Thread!

Apparently some routers (including some cheaper Netgear and/or Belkin ones can function as Bridges)

Additionally, TiVo-folk seem to have hinted that G support will not be missing forever. Interpret that as you will. Me - I'm holding off on upgrades because I have a working (B) network in place. Your situation (no network yet) may be ideally suited to go with the fastest setup you can afford that would work NOW (G bridges)

Also: Some game device adapters (perhaps like the DWL-G820) *may* function as suitable bridges too ... or even (configured) as clients, should do the trick!

eibgrad

12-22-2004, 05:49 PM

spelldog, remember, you're the one who showed interest in "G", all anyone here is trying to do is explain how "G" support is possible, noone is claiming it's the most economical solution.

Yes, you can always go the simplest route, which is installing a "B" client adapter, like the DWL-122 (or any others Tivo has on the compatibility list). Just make sure that adapter works well w/ your router. If you go out and buy a Netgear 802.11b router, then a D-Link DWL-122 client adapter, clearly the latter will work w/ Tivo (it's on the list), but it's not 100% guaranteed that client adapter will work (or work well) w/ the Netgear router. It *should*, all 802.11b networking should be compatible these days, but there's always the outside chance of problems. Ideally you'd rather stick w/ the same vendor, esp. if you're in the process of building the network from scratch (i.e., otherwise not committed to a vendor).

So if you just want simple "B" support, you need to follow the advice above, find a compatible "B" client adapter on the list, a compatible router, and go for it. It will work, albeit, you'll ALWAYS be limited to "B" performance, which in real world terms, is 4-5mbps, under ideal conditions.

But yes, if you go out and buy a router *and* wireless "G" bridge, it can get expensive. But here's were you need to